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Official M16: Fighter Feedback

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  • asterdahlasterdahl Member, Cryptic Developer Posts: 1,258 Cryptic Developer

    @asterdahl

    on console(ps4) block is on L3, which is a movement stick.
    it requires to push L3 to go in block and again to push to leave block.

    on pc u hit tab and are in block as long as u hold tab.

    will this change i cant test how layout will be 4 console on pc preview.

    if we would have keybinds like pc it wouldnt be a problem but otherwise could u consider putting block on R1 and have it in the same fashion as the tab on pc?

    I mostly play on console myself, so I am going to be taking a close look at this once we ship the PC build!
  • wilbur626wilbur626 Member Posts: 901 Arc User
    @asterdahl
    Adding +40% hit points to Vanguard path will most likely make tenebrous enchants in offensive slot a clear best in slot for Fighter tanks. I have always thought that it was kinda sad that such an awesome enchant was useless, but this change might make them a bit overpowered?
    Elite Whaleboy
  • dread4moordread4moor Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 1,145 Arc User
    > @asterdahl said:
    > Am I supposed to get a railgun with the dreadnought spec?
    >
    >
    >
    > In regards to Dreadnought, I chose the name based on the intended design of the paragon path. We were looking to make the DPS fighter into a fearless avenger type. Dreadnought means "fearless," and historically was used to refer to a thick overcoat that protected the wearer against a storm. It could also be used to describe a fearless individual, and this was the case hundreds of years before its use in reference to warships.
    >
    > That being said, the modern definition was also considered, as of course, we exist in modern times. Evoking images of a durable and dangerous battleship, was ultimately something I did not consider to be a negative. That being said, I can understand if you have a very defined word association, it can probably feel a bit awkward. While it's not impossible that we'd rename the paragon path, we're generally aiming to avoid two word names.

    <font color = "cyan"> Ooh! Ooh!
    Then can Fighter Tank be called Juggernaught?
    That means unstoppable, perfectly matches the theme you were going for and has awesome name synergy.
    Dreadnaught (DPS)
    Juggernaught (Tank)
    That would be so cool.
    <font>
    JrUzbQw.jpg?1
    I am Took.
    "Full plate and packing steel" in NW since 2013.
  • wilbur626wilbur626 Member Posts: 901 Arc User
    edited March 2019
    @dread4moor you forgot to add "j/k lol"

    In all seriousness, Fighter class should be called Vanguard and the two paths Guardian (tank) and Juggernaut (DPS).

    Reading up on the 5e Vanguard class I found this:

    "Sentinel Stance
    At 6th level, at the beginning of your turn you can change into the Sentinel Stance as a free action. While in this stance, you become resistant to your choice of nonmagical piercing, slashing, or bludgeoning damage, and you gain +1 to attack and damage rolls with a melee weapon. You cannot move or be moved while in this stance.

    Sentinel Stance Improvement
    At 10th level, your Sentinel Stance has reflected the path you have chosen. You gain the following features depending on your chosen Archetype.

    Guardian: You gain +3 to AC and +1 to all attack and damage rolls with a melee weapon. When you enter this stance, you move in front of the closest ally within 60 feet, you take all attacks your ally would take while in this Stance and you move when your ally moves, always staying in front of them. You cannot take the movement action while in this stance.

    Juggernaut: You gain +1 to AC and +3 to all attack and damage rolls with a melee weapon. You can move half your speed while in this stance. You can target one creature within your weapon's range, you can Fiercely strike the target, dealing twice the damage die of your weapon on a hit. The next turn, you cannot move or switch out of this stance, or use this ability again, until the turn after."

    I'm guessing that's where @asterdahl found inspiration for our TAB-mechanic.

    If the teleport to closest ally to shield him/her mechanic, and we could attack (at-will only?) were to be implemented, Dig In would be awesome.
    Post edited by wilbur626 on
    Elite Whaleboy
  • thefabricantthefabricant Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 5,247 Arc User
    edited March 2019
    asterdahl said:

    rjc9000 said:

    Am I supposed to get a railgun with the dreadnought spec?

    Hmmm... You won't miss Mow Down will you?




    Kidding! But seriously, thank you for the suggestions and feedback on the various passives and power naming vis-a-vis 5E. Obviously, we have a lot of room to take liberties and create powers that fit into the MMO environment, as opposed to just lifting material directly from pen and paper D&D, but we do try to keep the basic flavor there, so I'll definitely keep your feedback in mind as I wrestle with the feats and class features.

    In regards to Dreadnought, I chose the name based on the intended design of the paragon path. We were looking to make the DPS fighter into a fearless avenger type. Dreadnought means "fearless," and historically was used to refer to a thick overcoat that protected the wearer against a storm. It could also be used to describe a fearless individual, and this was the case hundreds of years before its use in reference to warships.

    That being said, the modern definition was also considered, as of course, we exist in modern times. Evoking images of a durable and dangerous battleship, was ultimately something I did not consider to be a negative. That being said, I can understand if you have a very defined word association, it can probably feel a bit awkward. While it's not impossible that we'd rename the paragon path, we're generally aiming to avoid two word names.
    Dreadnought is 2 words that historically got concatenated, you could always do the same here :P Battlemaster works just fine.
    Post edited by thefabricant on
  • silvergryphsilvergryph Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 737 Arc User
    wilbur626 said:

    @dread4moor you forgot to add "j/k lol"



    In all seriousness, Fighter class should be called Vanguard and the two paths Guardian (tank) and Juggernaut (DPS).



    Reading up on the 5e Vanguard class I found this:



    "Sentinel Stance

    At 6th level, at the beginning of your turn you can change into the Sentinel Stance as a free action. While in this stance, you become resistant to your choice of nonmagical piercing, slashing, or bludgeoning damage, and you gain +1 to attack and damage rolls with a melee weapon. You cannot move or be moved while in this stance.



    Sentinel Stance Improvement

    At 10th level, your Sentinel Stance has reflected the path you have chosen. You gain the following features depending on your chosen Archetype.



    Guardian: You gain +3 to AC and +1 to all attack and damage rolls with a melee weapon. When you enter this stance, you move in front of the closest ally within 60 feet, you take all attacks your ally would take while in this Stance and you move when your ally moves, always staying in front of them. You cannot take the movement action while in this stance.



    Juggernaut: You gain +1 to AC and +3 to all attack and damage rolls with a melee weapon. You can move half your speed while in this stance. You can target one creature within your weapon's range, you can Fiercely strike the target, dealing twice the damage die of your weapon on a hit. The next turn, you cannot move or switch out of this stance, or use this ability again, until the turn after."



    I'm guessing that's where @asterdahl found inspiration for our TAB-mechanic.



    If the teleport to closest ally to shield him/her mechanic, and we could attack (at-will only?) were to be implemented, Dig In would be awesome.

    I believe that Vanguard is a "homebrew", that is to say it was created by a player and is not an official D&D class. It has numerous balance issues and refers to rules that are not present in 5e. Probably rules that were added by their DM.
  • lowjohnlowjohn Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 1,061 Arc User



    I believe that Vanguard is a "homebrew", that is to say it was created by a player and is not an official D&D class. It has numerous balance issues and refers to rules that are not present in 5e. Probably rules that were added by their DM.

    That's totally a homebrew. Says so right at the top of the page, along with a "this is COMPLETELY unbalancedly strong" and "this makes reference to a whole lot of things that aren't from this version of the game"
  • wilbur626wilbur626 Member Posts: 901 Arc User
    @silvergryph you are ofc correct 👍
    Elite Whaleboy
  • dread4moordread4moor Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 1,145 Arc User
    Even after threat boost patch, pets are stealing aggro from Vanguard.

    image
    Lions stealing aggro from endgame geared Vanguard in CN at Beholder Boss.

    No pet, no matter how Legendary should ever be greater threat builder then a Vanguard.

    Overall, my ~6 T2 runs 3:1:1 w Vanguard were pretty good.
    Held aggro better (except for the frakking Lions).
    JrUzbQw.jpg?1
    I am Took.
    "Full plate and packing steel" in NW since 2013.
  • wilbur626wilbur626 Member Posts: 901 Arc User
    edited March 2019
    Tremor is listed as a (Paragon) encounter for both Vanguard and Dreadnaught. Shield Throw is not listed as (Paragon) for Dreadnaught

    Please make Commander's Strike a universal encounter (Replace Knee Breaker)
    Elite Whaleboy
  • lowjohnlowjohn Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 1,061 Arc User
    edited March 2019
    dolrey said:

    About shield nerf. First of all I should ask this change will affect all classes with shield or not? If yes then overall I agree with this nerf.

    He's posted the same thing to all three tank preview threads. All three tank classes (Fighter, Paladin, Barbarian) are getting the same change to their tankiness: +40% real HP, -50% block HP, small reduction in tank-path damage penalty.

    Also, it's not a nerf. 140% real HP + 50% of 140% block HP = 210% HP total.

    Compared to 100% + 100% = 200%. The new block is actually STRONGER, however, your shield won't last as long and your real HP will last longer.
  • marnivalmarnival Member Posts: 1,432 Arc User
    edited March 2019
    lowjohn said:

    dolrey said:

    About shield nerf. First of all I should ask this change will affect all classes with shield or not? If yes then overall I agree with this nerf.

    He's posted the same thing to all three tank preview threads. All three tank classes (Fighter, Paladin, Barbarian) are getting the same change to their tankiness: +40% real HP, -50% block HP, small reduction in tank-path damage penalty.

    Also, it's not a nerf. 140% real HP + 50% of 140% block HP = 210% HP total.

    Compared to 100% + 100% = 200%. The new block is actually STRONGER, however, your shield won't last as long and your real HP will last longer.
    My Op has 360k hp it will not be long before tank are about 400k yes it is not a nerf at 200k but in reality it is a nerf to block..

    I am not saying it it is bad or good just stating the facts.

    Best
  • fenrir4lifefenrir4life Member Posts: 295 Arc User
    @asterdahl any chance of putting a little bit of damage back on "soft control" powers like Enforced Threat (and, by extension, Daring Shout and the Paladin equivalent)? Like, keep the basic function of jumping you to the top of the threat table, but making the "buffer" threat come from the damage (which would then scale with our hurty stats like Power and Crit, allowing it to keep pace better with increasing item levels without as frequent tweaks to the power's own equation)

    It would also give those powers a potential niche on a soloing bar and help alleviate the relative dearth of intuitive and rewarding AoEs on the tank paths.

    (btw, you described Linebreaker as 'kind of a skillshot' and I was wondering if we could dig into that thinking, so to speak- the frustration with Linebreaker as anything but an opener comes from the potential for the mob shuffle AI to turn it from an AoE into an undertuned single target. I'd propose turning it into an actual skillshot, either a ground-target or camera-bound ability that halts your movement and inflicts damage in a cone when you collide with something hurtable. Lessens its utility in PvP, but improves it in PvE and even gives you an emergency dash if you slot it.)
  • lowjohnlowjohn Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 1,061 Arc User
    marnival said:

    lowjohn said:

    dolrey said:

    About shield nerf. First of all I should ask this change will affect all classes with shield or not? If yes then overall I agree with this nerf.

    He's posted the same thing to all three tank preview threads. All three tank classes (Fighter, Paladin, Barbarian) are getting the same change to their tankiness: +40% real HP, -50% block HP, small reduction in tank-path damage penalty.

    Also, it's not a nerf. 140% real HP + 50% of 140% block HP = 210% HP total.

    Compared to 100% + 100% = 200%. The new block is actually STRONGER, however, your shield won't last as long and your real HP will last longer.
    My Op has 360k hp it will not be long before tank are about 400k yes it is not a nerf at 200k but in reality it is a nerf to block..

    I am not saying it it is bad or good just stating the facts.

    Best
    Old system: Your HP + Block HP = 200% of base HP
    New system: Your HP + Block HP = 210% of base HP.

    No matter how many HP you have. Having more HP does not make this worse - at 360k HP (Live) you'll have ~500K HP with a ~250K HP Block in Mod 16.

    Your Block will not last QUITE as long as it did when it was 360K/360K, but your real HP will last much longer especially because your block HP can't be "healed" by a healer,
  • dread4moordread4moor Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 1,145 Arc User
    lowjohn said:

    marnival said:

    lowjohn said:

    dolrey said:

    About shield nerf. First of all I should ask this change will affect all classes with shield or not? If yes then overall I agree with this nerf.

    He's posted the same thing to all three tank preview threads. All three tank classes (Fighter, Paladin, Barbarian) are getting the same change to their tankiness: +40% real HP, -50% block HP, small reduction in tank-path damage penalty.

    Also, it's not a nerf. 140% real HP + 50% of 140% block HP = 210% HP total.

    Compared to 100% + 100% = 200%. The new block is actually STRONGER, however, your shield won't last as long and your real HP will last longer.
    My Op has 360k hp it will not be long before tank are about 400k yes it is not a nerf at 200k but in reality it is a nerf to block..

    I am not saying it it is bad or good just stating the facts.

    Best
    Old system: Your HP + Block HP = 200% of base HP
    New system: Your HP + Block HP = 210% of base HP.

    No matter how many HP you have. Having more HP does not make this worse - at 360k HP (Live) you'll have ~500K HP with a ~250K HP Block in Mod 16.

    Your Block will not last QUITE as long as it did when it was 360K/360K, but your real HP will last much longer especially because your block HP can't be "healed" by a healer,
    The question here is which is easier to replenish: Your HP or Block HP?
    With less Block HP, damage that would have been in the Block are now on you.
    If heals/self-heals are strong and consistent then this change is a big improvement.

    But if Block HP are easily refilled, this is less advantageous.
    In this case, better to dent your shield then dent your head.

    I've been cultivating stamina/shield regenerating options.
    If a Vanguard can put their Block HP from 0 to full in 3-4 seconds (gap spent grabbing aggro) you would have a functional "Permashield".
    Return of The Bowser, baby!
    image
    JrUzbQw.jpg?1
    I am Took.
    "Full plate and packing steel" in NW since 2013.
  • marnivalmarnival Member Posts: 1,432 Arc User
    lowjohn said:

    marnival said:

    lowjohn said:

    dolrey said:

    About shield nerf. First of all I should ask this change will affect all classes with shield or not? If yes then overall I agree with this nerf.

    He's posted the same thing to all three tank preview threads. All three tank classes (Fighter, Paladin, Barbarian) are getting the same change to their tankiness: +40% real HP, -50% block HP, small reduction in tank-path damage penalty.

    Also, it's not a nerf. 140% real HP + 50% of 140% block HP = 210% HP total.

    Compared to 100% + 100% = 200%. The new block is actually STRONGER, however, your shield won't last as long and your real HP will last longer.
    My Op has 360k hp it will not be long before tank are about 400k yes it is not a nerf at 200k but in reality it is a nerf to block..

    I am not saying it it is bad or good just stating the facts.

    Best
    Old system: Your HP + Block HP = 200% of base HP
    New system: Your HP + Block HP = 210% of base HP.

    No matter how many HP you have. Having more HP does not make this worse - at 360k HP (Live) you'll have ~500K HP with a ~250K HP Block in Mod 16.

    Your Block will not last QUITE as long as it did when it was 360K/360K, but your real HP will last much longer especially because your block HP can't be "healed" by a healer,
    True but block will last shorter and if you are low on hp that makes a difference but you are ofc right in what you write ).
  • fenrir4lifefenrir4life Member Posts: 295 Arc User
    marnival said:

    lowjohn said:

    marnival said:

    lowjohn said:

    dolrey said:

    About shield nerf. First of all I should ask this change will affect all classes with shield or not? If yes then overall I agree with this nerf.

    He's posted the same thing to all three tank preview threads. All three tank classes (Fighter, Paladin, Barbarian) are getting the same change to their tankiness: +40% real HP, -50% block HP, small reduction in tank-path damage penalty.

    Also, it's not a nerf. 140% real HP + 50% of 140% block HP = 210% HP total.

    Compared to 100% + 100% = 200%. The new block is actually STRONGER, however, your shield won't last as long and your real HP will last longer.
    My Op has 360k hp it will not be long before tank are about 400k yes it is not a nerf at 200k but in reality it is a nerf to block..

    I am not saying it it is bad or good just stating the facts.

    Best
    Old system: Your HP + Block HP = 200% of base HP
    New system: Your HP + Block HP = 210% of base HP.

    No matter how many HP you have. Having more HP does not make this worse - at 360k HP (Live) you'll have ~500K HP with a ~250K HP Block in Mod 16.

    Your Block will not last QUITE as long as it did when it was 360K/360K, but your real HP will last much longer especially because your block HP can't be "healed" by a healer,
    True but block will last shorter and if you are low on hp that makes a difference but you are ofc right in what you write ).
    Content is being tuned such that you will spend more time low on HP, as opposed to full or dead, so the oneshot risk is lower, and weaving blocking and chinning to allow stamina regen while keeping your healer from being overwhelmed is going to be one of the skills involved in tanking.
  • dread4moordread4moor Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 1,145 Arc User
    Regrets if someone pointed this out already, (14 pages of feedback), but...
    image
    Brazen Thrust feat links to Piercing Thrust encounter on Vanguard.
    I thought piercing thrust was removed from Vanguard.
    JrUzbQw.jpg?1
    I am Took.
    "Full plate and packing steel" in NW since 2013.
  • marnivalmarnival Member Posts: 1,432 Arc User

    I am sure @thefabricant has already stated this in the Paladin thread, but I think, retroactively, reducing the penalty of the tank passive was a mistake. That blurs the line between tank and DPS and overwhelmingly favors tank rather than DPS.


    @rjc9000

    If dps are still ahead with 20+% feel free to elaborate how so ....
  • tardbathtardbath Member Posts: 79 Arc User
    Just give Vanguard a -50% CA to prevent people from playin DPS Vanguard..
    The -30% penalty is hurting the Vanguard and a tank should do the 70%(endgame tank) of a dps, as the devs stated!
    I don't want to do dmg with my Vanguard, i dont event care if i have close to 50% of a real dps CAUSE a real dps will be CA capped !! and a REAL tank should never CA !! (we have to face those mobs!)
    If you gut our dps with that -30% the vanguard will just feel like a mod15 tank companion!

    ps Not only a vanguard will/should never be CA capped we also have Encounters like ET(0=dmg)
  • wilbur626wilbur626 Member Posts: 901 Arc User
    I agree 100% with @rjc9000 regarding the changes to the path of the vanguard. Increasing threat generation and reducing damage dealt is a much better option than blurring the lines between tank and DPS role.
    If @asterdahl changed Commanders Strike to a universal encounter, that would (paired with the adjustments to base +threat rjc is suggesting) be more than enough to handle the problems players seems to have with threat generation.
    Elite Whaleboy
  • hypervoreianhypervoreian Member Posts: 1,036 Arc User
    marnival said:


    I am sure @thefabricant has already stated this in the Paladin thread, but I think, retroactively, reducing the penalty of the tank passive was a mistake. That blurs the line between tank and DPS and overwhelmingly favors tank rather than DPS.


    @rjc9000

    If dps are still ahead with 20+% feel free to elaborate how so ....

    |They speak for the amjority of DPS players ,who as must you know after playing NW for many years they are not very good.
    Sharp and Rjc just happen to take their side.i dont know the reason.

  • mythrackamythracka Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 26 Arc User
    Occurred today, testing on Dreadnought in Barovia and testing combat in Heroics.

    Not sure if relevant but running Anvil of Doom, Heated Vengeance and Weight of Vengeance.

    Entered combat. Run vengeance to around 50 without using Seethe initially. Was periodically trying anvil to test above noted skills and then began dropping in and out of Seethe to charge vengeance mid combat. This caused Seethe to lock and I was unable to re-enter Seethe from that point.

    When out of combat and vengeance had run completely out I was still glowing red (but without the red eyes). Still Seethe was locked and hitting the Tab key sometimes caused the screen to 'giggle' repeatedly but nothing else. Going to the Powers tab on my Characters record and mousing over the Tab ability (that normally pops up the tool-tip labelled Seethe), was showing the label 'Lower Guard'.

    Going to a campfire and changing to Vanguard and then changing back to Dreadnought reset the ability. The red glow vanished changing to Vanguard, and when back as Dreadnought and checking the Powers tab the correct tool-tip for Seethe was now correctly present again and I could enter and leave Seethe again to gain Vengeance.

    Until changing paragon paths I couldn't find any way to reset the Seethe ability.

  • wilbur626wilbur626 Member Posts: 901 Arc User
    edited March 2019
    @hypervoreian
    What would increased damage bring to a tank that in current state has no problems staying on top of threat list?

    About tenebrous: Isn't 7% of (X+40%) more than 7% of X?
    Elite Whaleboy
  • manipulosmanipulos Member Posts: 235 Arc User
    The 40% extra hit points would help address the gap in tank vs. non-tank capping DR and stacking hit points, as long as that bonus includes ALL sources of hit points not just base...except taking away 50% of shield negates that so it's back to even. Still doesn't address the loss of extra Armor Class and the trivialization of bonus hit points from Constitution due to the vast majority of hit points coming from gear and enchants. Maybe I'm remembering wrong but there was still talk of possibly changing the various defensive caps based on class and paragon, so maybe we will hear more on that front soon?

    I agree 10% damage reduction seems too small, because I came to the same conclusion as others on the Dreadnought - it wasn't worth wasting the time gaining and refilling vengeance for a 10% boost, so I started ignoring it. But again, you're still not gaining anything in place of the 10% reduction in damage. What's the tradeoff? The increased hit points are traded for reduced shield so that's a wash. You're still taking a reduction in damage dealt for nothing, except some abilities that increase your threat generation?

    In short: What is a tank getting in place of 10% reduced damage, just the increased ability to generate threat via some of your unique powers? I don't see any other gains that haven't already been balanced out in some other way.

    Again, I'm curious to see if damage mitigation will be adjusted in some way (not just through shielding) to be higher for tanks vs. non-tanks. If dps and healers are as "tanky" as tanks just minus the shield there's no fun in playing the tank. I know you guys want the game to be fun :)
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