on console(ps4) block is on L3, which is a movement stick. it requires to push L3 to go in block and again to push to leave block.
on pc u hit tab and are in block as long as u hold tab.
will this change i cant test how layout will be 4 console on pc preview.
if we would have keybinds like pc it wouldnt be a problem but otherwise could u consider putting block on R1 and have it in the same fashion as the tab on pc?
I mostly play on console myself, so I am going to be taking a close look at this once we ship the PC build!
@asterdahl Adding +40% hit points to Vanguard path will most likely make tenebrous enchants in offensive slot a clear best in slot for Fighter tanks. I have always thought that it was kinda sad that such an awesome enchant was useless, but this change might make them a bit overpowered?
Elite Whaleboy
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dread4moorMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,154Arc User
> @asterdahl said: > Am I supposed to get a railgun with the dreadnought spec? > > > > In regards to Dreadnought, I chose the name based on the intended design of the paragon path. We were looking to make the DPS fighter into a fearless avenger type. Dreadnought means "fearless," and historically was used to refer to a thick overcoat that protected the wearer against a storm. It could also be used to describe a fearless individual, and this was the case hundreds of years before its use in reference to warships. > > That being said, the modern definition was also considered, as of course, we exist in modern times. Evoking images of a durable and dangerous battleship, was ultimately something I did not consider to be a negative. That being said, I can understand if you have a very defined word association, it can probably feel a bit awkward. While it's not impossible that we'd rename the paragon path, we're generally aiming to avoid two word names.
<font color = "cyan"> Ooh! Ooh! Then can Fighter Tank be called Juggernaught? That means unstoppable, perfectly matches the theme you were going for and has awesome name synergy. Dreadnaught (DPS) Juggernaught (Tank) That would be so cool. <font>
I am Took.
"Full plate and packing steel" in NW since 2013.
In all seriousness, Fighter class should be called Vanguard and the two paths Guardian (tank) and Juggernaut (DPS).
Reading up on the 5e Vanguard class I found this:
"Sentinel Stance At 6th level, at the beginning of your turn you can change into the Sentinel Stance as a free action. While in this stance, you become resistant to your choice of nonmagical piercing, slashing, or bludgeoning damage, and you gain +1 to attack and damage rolls with a melee weapon. You cannot move or be moved while in this stance.
Sentinel Stance Improvement At 10th level, your Sentinel Stance has reflected the path you have chosen. You gain the following features depending on your chosen Archetype.
Guardian: You gain +3 to AC and +1 to all attack and damage rolls with a melee weapon. When you enter this stance, you move in front of the closest ally within 60 feet, you take all attacks your ally would take while in this Stance and you move when your ally moves, always staying in front of them. You cannot take the movement action while in this stance.
Juggernaut: You gain +1 to AC and +3 to all attack and damage rolls with a melee weapon. You can move half your speed while in this stance. You can target one creature within your weapon's range, you can Fiercely strike the target, dealing twice the damage die of your weapon on a hit. The next turn, you cannot move or switch out of this stance, or use this ability again, until the turn after."
I'm guessing that's where @asterdahl found inspiration for our TAB-mechanic.
If the teleport to closest ally to shield him/her mechanic, and we could attack (at-will only?) were to be implemented, Dig In would be awesome.
Post edited by wilbur626 on
Elite Whaleboy
2
thefabricantMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 5,248Arc User
Am I supposed to get a railgun with the dreadnought spec?
Hmmm... You won't miss Mow Down will you?
Kidding! But seriously, thank you for the suggestions and feedback on the various passives and power naming vis-a-vis 5E. Obviously, we have a lot of room to take liberties and create powers that fit into the MMO environment, as opposed to just lifting material directly from pen and paper D&D, but we do try to keep the basic flavor there, so I'll definitely keep your feedback in mind as I wrestle with the feats and class features.
In regards to Dreadnought, I chose the name based on the intended design of the paragon path. We were looking to make the DPS fighter into a fearless avenger type. Dreadnought means "fearless," and historically was used to refer to a thick overcoat that protected the wearer against a storm. It could also be used to describe a fearless individual, and this was the case hundreds of years before its use in reference to warships.
That being said, the modern definition was also considered, as of course, we exist in modern times. Evoking images of a durable and dangerous battleship, was ultimately something I did not consider to be a negative. That being said, I can understand if you have a very defined word association, it can probably feel a bit awkward. While it's not impossible that we'd rename the paragon path, we're generally aiming to avoid two word names.
Dreadnought is 2 words that historically got concatenated, you could always do the same here :P Battlemaster works just fine.
In all seriousness, Fighter class should be called Vanguard and the two paths Guardian (tank) and Juggernaut (DPS).
Reading up on the 5e Vanguard class I found this:
"Sentinel Stance
At 6th level, at the beginning of your turn you can change into the Sentinel Stance as a free action. While in this stance, you become resistant to your choice of nonmagical piercing, slashing, or bludgeoning damage, and you gain +1 to attack and damage rolls with a melee weapon. You cannot move or be moved while in this stance.
Sentinel Stance Improvement
At 10th level, your Sentinel Stance has reflected the path you have chosen. You gain the following features depending on your chosen Archetype.
Guardian: You gain +3 to AC and +1 to all attack and damage rolls with a melee weapon. When you enter this stance, you move in front of the closest ally within 60 feet, you take all attacks your ally would take while in this Stance and you move when your ally moves, always staying in front of them. You cannot take the movement action while in this stance.
Juggernaut: You gain +1 to AC and +3 to all attack and damage rolls with a melee weapon. You can move half your speed while in this stance. You can target one creature within your weapon's range, you can Fiercely strike the target, dealing twice the damage die of your weapon on a hit. The next turn, you cannot move or switch out of this stance, or use this ability again, until the turn after."
I'm guessing that's where @asterdahl found inspiration for our TAB-mechanic.
If the teleport to closest ally to shield him/her mechanic, and we could attack (at-will only?) were to be implemented, Dig In would be awesome.
I believe that Vanguard is a "homebrew", that is to say it was created by a player and is not an official D&D class. It has numerous balance issues and refers to rules that are not present in 5e. Probably rules that were added by their DM.
I believe that Vanguard is a "homebrew", that is to say it was created by a player and is not an official D&D class. It has numerous balance issues and refers to rules that are not present in 5e. Probably rules that were added by their DM.
That's totally a homebrew. Says so right at the top of the page, along with a "this is COMPLETELY unbalancedly strong" and "this makes reference to a whole lot of things that aren't from this version of the game"
dread4moorMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,154Arc User
Even after threat boost patch, pets are stealing aggro from Vanguard.
Lions stealing aggro from endgame geared Vanguard in CN at Beholder Boss.
No pet, no matter how Legendary should ever be greater threat builder then a Vanguard. Overall, my ~6 T2 runs 3:1:1 w Vanguard were pretty good. Held aggro better (except for the frakking Lions).
I am Took.
"Full plate and packing steel" in NW since 2013.
About shield nerf. First of all I should ask this change will affect all classes with shield or not? If yes then overall I agree with this nerf.
He's posted the same thing to all three tank preview threads. All three tank classes (Fighter, Paladin, Barbarian) are getting the same change to their tankiness: +40% real HP, -50% block HP, small reduction in tank-path damage penalty.
Also, it's not a nerf. 140% real HP + 50% of 140% block HP = 210% HP total.
Compared to 100% + 100% = 200%. The new block is actually STRONGER, however, your shield won't last as long and your real HP will last longer.
About shield nerf. First of all I should ask this change will affect all classes with shield or not? If yes then overall I agree with this nerf.
He's posted the same thing to all three tank preview threads. All three tank classes (Fighter, Paladin, Barbarian) are getting the same change to their tankiness: +40% real HP, -50% block HP, small reduction in tank-path damage penalty.
Also, it's not a nerf. 140% real HP + 50% of 140% block HP = 210% HP total.
Compared to 100% + 100% = 200%. The new block is actually STRONGER, however, your shield won't last as long and your real HP will last longer.
My Op has 360k hp it will not be long before tank are about 400k yes it is not a nerf at 200k but in reality it is a nerf to block..
I am not saying it it is bad or good just stating the facts.
@asterdahl any chance of putting a little bit of damage back on "soft control" powers like Enforced Threat (and, by extension, Daring Shout and the Paladin equivalent)? Like, keep the basic function of jumping you to the top of the threat table, but making the "buffer" threat come from the damage (which would then scale with our hurty stats like Power and Crit, allowing it to keep pace better with increasing item levels without as frequent tweaks to the power's own equation)
It would also give those powers a potential niche on a soloing bar and help alleviate the relative dearth of intuitive and rewarding AoEs on the tank paths.
(btw, you described Linebreaker as 'kind of a skillshot' and I was wondering if we could dig into that thinking, so to speak- the frustration with Linebreaker as anything but an opener comes from the potential for the mob shuffle AI to turn it from an AoE into an undertuned single target. I'd propose turning it into an actual skillshot, either a ground-target or camera-bound ability that halts your movement and inflicts damage in a cone when you collide with something hurtable. Lessens its utility in PvP, but improves it in PvE and even gives you an emergency dash if you slot it.)
About shield nerf. First of all I should ask this change will affect all classes with shield or not? If yes then overall I agree with this nerf.
He's posted the same thing to all three tank preview threads. All three tank classes (Fighter, Paladin, Barbarian) are getting the same change to their tankiness: +40% real HP, -50% block HP, small reduction in tank-path damage penalty.
Also, it's not a nerf. 140% real HP + 50% of 140% block HP = 210% HP total.
Compared to 100% + 100% = 200%. The new block is actually STRONGER, however, your shield won't last as long and your real HP will last longer.
My Op has 360k hp it will not be long before tank are about 400k yes it is not a nerf at 200k but in reality it is a nerf to block..
I am not saying it it is bad or good just stating the facts.
Best
Old system: Your HP + Block HP = 200% of base HP New system: Your HP + Block HP = 210% of base HP.
No matter how many HP you have. Having more HP does not make this worse - at 360k HP (Live) you'll have ~500K HP with a ~250K HP Block in Mod 16.
Your Block will not last QUITE as long as it did when it was 360K/360K, but your real HP will last much longer especially because your block HP can't be "healed" by a healer,
2
dread4moorMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,154Arc User
About shield nerf. First of all I should ask this change will affect all classes with shield or not? If yes then overall I agree with this nerf.
He's posted the same thing to all three tank preview threads. All three tank classes (Fighter, Paladin, Barbarian) are getting the same change to their tankiness: +40% real HP, -50% block HP, small reduction in tank-path damage penalty.
Also, it's not a nerf. 140% real HP + 50% of 140% block HP = 210% HP total.
Compared to 100% + 100% = 200%. The new block is actually STRONGER, however, your shield won't last as long and your real HP will last longer.
My Op has 360k hp it will not be long before tank are about 400k yes it is not a nerf at 200k but in reality it is a nerf to block..
I am not saying it it is bad or good just stating the facts.
Best
Old system: Your HP + Block HP = 200% of base HP New system: Your HP + Block HP = 210% of base HP.
No matter how many HP you have. Having more HP does not make this worse - at 360k HP (Live) you'll have ~500K HP with a ~250K HP Block in Mod 16.
Your Block will not last QUITE as long as it did when it was 360K/360K, but your real HP will last much longer especially because your block HP can't be "healed" by a healer,
The question here is which is easier to replenish: Your HP or Block HP? With less Block HP, damage that would have been in the Block are now on you. If heals/self-heals are strong and consistent then this change is a big improvement.
But if Block HP are easily refilled, this is less advantageous. In this case, better to dent your shield then dent your head.
I've been cultivating stamina/shield regenerating options. If a Vanguard can put their Block HP from 0 to full in 3-4 seconds (gap spent grabbing aggro) you would have a functional "Permashield". Return of The Bowser, baby!
I am Took.
"Full plate and packing steel" in NW since 2013.
About shield nerf. First of all I should ask this change will affect all classes with shield or not? If yes then overall I agree with this nerf.
He's posted the same thing to all three tank preview threads. All three tank classes (Fighter, Paladin, Barbarian) are getting the same change to their tankiness: +40% real HP, -50% block HP, small reduction in tank-path damage penalty.
Also, it's not a nerf. 140% real HP + 50% of 140% block HP = 210% HP total.
Compared to 100% + 100% = 200%. The new block is actually STRONGER, however, your shield won't last as long and your real HP will last longer.
My Op has 360k hp it will not be long before tank are about 400k yes it is not a nerf at 200k but in reality it is a nerf to block..
I am not saying it it is bad or good just stating the facts.
Best
Old system: Your HP + Block HP = 200% of base HP New system: Your HP + Block HP = 210% of base HP.
No matter how many HP you have. Having more HP does not make this worse - at 360k HP (Live) you'll have ~500K HP with a ~250K HP Block in Mod 16.
Your Block will not last QUITE as long as it did when it was 360K/360K, but your real HP will last much longer especially because your block HP can't be "healed" by a healer,
True but block will last shorter and if you are low on hp that makes a difference but you are ofc right in what you write ).
About shield nerf. First of all I should ask this change will affect all classes with shield or not? If yes then overall I agree with this nerf.
He's posted the same thing to all three tank preview threads. All three tank classes (Fighter, Paladin, Barbarian) are getting the same change to their tankiness: +40% real HP, -50% block HP, small reduction in tank-path damage penalty.
Also, it's not a nerf. 140% real HP + 50% of 140% block HP = 210% HP total.
Compared to 100% + 100% = 200%. The new block is actually STRONGER, however, your shield won't last as long and your real HP will last longer.
My Op has 360k hp it will not be long before tank are about 400k yes it is not a nerf at 200k but in reality it is a nerf to block..
I am not saying it it is bad or good just stating the facts.
Best
Old system: Your HP + Block HP = 200% of base HP New system: Your HP + Block HP = 210% of base HP.
No matter how many HP you have. Having more HP does not make this worse - at 360k HP (Live) you'll have ~500K HP with a ~250K HP Block in Mod 16.
Your Block will not last QUITE as long as it did when it was 360K/360K, but your real HP will last much longer especially because your block HP can't be "healed" by a healer,
True but block will last shorter and if you are low on hp that makes a difference but you are ofc right in what you write ).
Content is being tuned such that you will spend more time low on HP, as opposed to full or dead, so the oneshot risk is lower, and weaving blocking and chinning to allow stamina regen while keeping your healer from being overwhelmed is going to be one of the skills involved in tanking.
0
dread4moorMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,154Arc User
Regrets if someone pointed this out already, (14 pages of feedback), but... Brazen Thrust feat links to Piercing Thrust encounter on Vanguard. I thought piercing thrust was removed from Vanguard.
I am Took.
"Full plate and packing steel" in NW since 2013.
Naturally, this means that your block is a little weaker, but it's still very powerful given how quickly stamina regenerates. We think these changes feel good, a bit more tank healing is required in group content, and tanks can't shield quite as much so often in PvP. However, we're absolutely still ironing out the details regarding tank durability, so these numbers could be reverted, or changed further, but we'd like to see how everyone feels about these changes. So please send your feedback once you've had a chance to check them out in this week's upcoming build.
I am sure @thefabricant has already stated this in the Paladin thread, but I think, retroactively, reducing the penalty of the tank passive was a mistake. That blurs the line between tank and DPS and overwhelmingly favors tank rather than DPS.
I would suggest retooling Path of the Vanguard (or the tank spec passives) to reduce the damage you deal by 50%, increase HP/Defense/and Deflect by 15%, but increase aggro generation by 400% (up from 200%). On the tank specs, you come out ahead in aggro (50% reduced damage * 4x aggro = 200%, or 2x the aggro of the comparable DPS) while keeping the tanks focused on defending.
As for the stat bonus, I suggested an improvement to HP/Defense/Deflect rather than purely HP so so the Defense or Deflect minded players don't feel like they're left out by the tank passive. I also suggested 15% because the bonus is split amongst 3 stats (45% total bonus) rather than just 1 stat, in addition to "13.333%" being janky from a description perspective.
I can keep the Boat/Coat name so as long as the class is fun to play. If it bothers more people besides my joking side, you could truncate Battle Master as "Battlemaster", which isn't grammatically correct, but still keeps the idea. he suggested Juggernaut name is also evocative of the playstyle style envisioned.
--- I saw a few complaints about Enduring Warrior, here's my idea for a DnD themed revamp. Seeing as how there have been complaints about Enduring Warrior, I'd suggest changing Enduring Warrior to "Strength Before Death". Change effect to "if you are at 35% or below HP, attacks deal their effects as a 5 second DoT. The DoT deals 1/5th of the attack's normal damage per second. The DoT effect(s) be cleared by Second Wind.
While the idea is from the Samurai of the Xanathar's Guide to Everything suppliment and not the western European themed Fighter as a whole, the feat sounded too perfect to give up for the tank spec.
I wanted an interesting and useful "oh god I'm going to die need to survive" passive. It took me a while to think of a unique effect for the "delayed death" theme and I eventually took inspiration from Payday 2's Stoic perkdeck, which also has the "delayed death" theme.
I don't think it's broken in PvE because you should not be getting to low health in perfect/good play.
I don't think it'd be broken in PvP because the tank spec (hopefully) has the 50% reduced damage from the passive, making them that annoying person that can't kill you, but simply bogs you down while trying to take the node.
I am sure @thefabricant has already stated this in the Paladin thread, but I think, retroactively, reducing the penalty of the tank passive was a mistake. That blurs the line between tank and DPS and overwhelmingly favors tank rather than DPS.
I am sure @thefabricant has already stated this in the Paladin thread, but I think, retroactively, reducing the penalty of the tank passive was a mistake. That blurs the line between tank and DPS and overwhelmingly favors tank rather than DPS.
If dps are still ahead with 20+% feel free to elaborate how so ....
Agreed. The former Vanguard DPS penalty was way too harsh, limited our ability to Tank. That extra DPS fits into the Jane Equation and boosts our aggro. No one is going to drop their DPS build and go tank because of this slight improvement in our DPS. We still suck at DPS. Not in competition with Dreadnaught at all. But we need some DPS to tank and survive. This was a smart move.
I am Took.
"Full plate and packing steel" in NW since 2013.
I am sure @thefabricant has already stated this in the Paladin thread, but I think, retroactively, reducing the penalty of the tank passive was a mistake. That blurs the line between tank and DPS and overwhelmingly favors tank rather than DPS.
If dps are still ahead with 20+% feel free to elaborate how so ....
Because the 10% penalty is not a big enough difference between tank and DPS, it literally turns tanks into " a slightly worse DPS with 40% more HP".
No matter which spec you run, you are using the same base damage values for the class. The damage of Shield Slam is always 250 magnitude, Anvil is 1000, Cleave 15, so on and so forth for all the shared powers. Another key thing to note is that under the new aggro system, everyone is encouraged to DPS: DPS because it's their job, tanks for holding aggro, and healers to pass the time while babysitting.
So if everyone is encouraged to play DPS and can play DPS because of stat homogenization, what's the difference between a tank and DPS?
The only difference in ability damage between the specs was the penalty to damage. 30% was a material difference, but 10% is not. An example of 10% being immaterial is Vengeance in its current state: right now, you could play the Boat spec without touching Vengeance because 10% was not a big enough difference to be worth the hassle of using the potty squat mechanic or trying to stand toe to toe.
You could also argue, "the DPS tree makes a difference", but right now, it doesn't. Most of the feats are too specific or require so much Vengeance that losing the occasional 300 magnitude damage on (x) ability isn't worth the hassle of playing violation of common sense or using the potty squat.
Even with the new penalty, you could argue the 22% damage difference (10% penalty*10% Vengeance) is a material difference that you *would* play a DPS spec over a tank spec. I would argue, no, it isn't: if I get to nearly double my HP (close to +120,000 for most players) and my only loss is "lose 50,000-100,000 damage on encounters you use every 12-15 seconds", what is discouraging me from running tank over a spec besides the random queue system?
I don't mind increasing aggro multipliers by a drastic amount so tanks have aggro without needing to DPS (I don't think a 40% gain in aggro will help too much, but I'll roll with it and see). I also don't mind giving tank players a passive where they deal 50% more damage while alone so the bad players can solo just fine on tank spec. I also don't mind giving DPS players a larger boost to damage in exchange to larger penalty for defenses.
But right now, the border between DPS and tank is so thin that I suspect a 4 tank 1 healer setup will rise for most player.
Just give Vanguard a -50% CA to prevent people from playin DPS Vanguard.. The -30% penalty is hurting the Vanguard and a tank should do the 70%(endgame tank) of a dps, as the devs stated! I don't want to do dmg with my Vanguard, i dont event care if i have close to 50% of a real dps CAUSE a real dps will be CA capped !! and a REAL tank should never CA !! (we have to face those mobs!) If you gut our dps with that -30% the vanguard will just feel like a mod15 tank companion!
ps Not only a vanguard will/should never be CA capped we also have Encounters like ET(0=dmg)
I agree 100% with @rjc9000 regarding the changes to the path of the vanguard. Increasing threat generation and reducing damage dealt is a much better option than blurring the lines between tank and DPS role. If @asterdahl changed Commanders Strike to a universal encounter, that would (paired with the adjustments to base +threat rjc is suggesting) be more than enough to handle the problems players seems to have with threat generation.
The comments from spesific circle forumers about "blurriness" of tank and dps ,are completely out of line and illogical.
Answers to the spesifc circle of players and forumers:
1.You conveniently forget to calculate the stat difference: A defender class must invest at least 40k stats into defense.If wants to do his job.So a DPS has a head on of 40k stats. 40k/500=80% more damage.
2.DPS classes have a 10% default dps advantage.
3.Defender classes has -10% default dps penalty.
Let's sum it up.A dps by default will have 100% more damge than a dfender.So some people worry that defendes can outdps some dps.Excuse me,if with 100% damage you are outdpsed ,then it is not defenders problem,it is DPS problem.
4.Some forgot to mention that contrary to the poor defenders,DPS do not get a penalty for their role: While Defenders do 10?% less damage,cause "they need to be tanks" .DPS do not get 10% more damage taken"cause they need to be separated from tanks" We have a saying in my country. "Mine is mine and yours is mine" "you cannot have the pie full ,and the dog well fed aswell"
5.A certain player,playing a CW,soloed etos in preview. He did not asked for dps classes to "differentiate " from tanks,cause they have-apparently-so many mitigation tools into their disposal ,but to increase the difficulty of the dungeon.
-------------------
As for tenebrous:
enchant is underperforming in preview with 3 rank13s and 1 rank14 It procs around 10% ,half of waht it should be. The increase to Gf hp will make minimal difference: thge damage is not calculated on the sum of the equipped enchants but of the higher one;Only the chances are summed up. If a Gf has 5 rank14s ,the damage would be still 7% of his hp.
Feedback:
phalanx daily is underwhelming.You still take damage,while not able to block.pretty sure end game bosses even with new damage modifiers will eat Gfs health in 10 secs. So i do not see any utility there
I am sure @thefabricant has already stated this in the Paladin thread, but I think, retroactively, reducing the penalty of the tank passive was a mistake. That blurs the line between tank and DPS and overwhelmingly favors tank rather than DPS.
If dps are still ahead with 20+% feel free to elaborate how so ....
|They speak for the amjority of DPS players ,who as must you know after playing NW for many years they are not very good. Sharp and Rjc just happen to take their side.i dont know the reason.
Occurred today, testing on Dreadnought in Barovia and testing combat in Heroics.
Not sure if relevant but running Anvil of Doom, Heated Vengeance and Weight of Vengeance.
Entered combat. Run vengeance to around 50 without using Seethe initially. Was periodically trying anvil to test above noted skills and then began dropping in and out of Seethe to charge vengeance mid combat. This caused Seethe to lock and I was unable to re-enter Seethe from that point.
When out of combat and vengeance had run completely out I was still glowing red (but without the red eyes). Still Seethe was locked and hitting the Tab key sometimes caused the screen to 'giggle' repeatedly but nothing else. Going to the Powers tab on my Characters record and mousing over the Tab ability (that normally pops up the tool-tip labelled Seethe), was showing the label 'Lower Guard'.
Going to a campfire and changing to Vanguard and then changing back to Dreadnought reset the ability. The red glow vanished changing to Vanguard, and when back as Dreadnought and checking the Powers tab the correct tool-tip for Seethe was now correctly present again and I could enter and leave Seethe again to gain Vengeance.
Until changing paragon paths I couldn't find any way to reset the Seethe ability.
The 40% extra hit points would help address the gap in tank vs. non-tank capping DR and stacking hit points, as long as that bonus includes ALL sources of hit points not just base...except taking away 50% of shield negates that so it's back to even. Still doesn't address the loss of extra Armor Class and the trivialization of bonus hit points from Constitution due to the vast majority of hit points coming from gear and enchants. Maybe I'm remembering wrong but there was still talk of possibly changing the various defensive caps based on class and paragon, so maybe we will hear more on that front soon?
I agree 10% damage reduction seems too small, because I came to the same conclusion as others on the Dreadnought - it wasn't worth wasting the time gaining and refilling vengeance for a 10% boost, so I started ignoring it. But again, you're still not gaining anything in place of the 10% reduction in damage. What's the tradeoff? The increased hit points are traded for reduced shield so that's a wash. You're still taking a reduction in damage dealt for nothing, except some abilities that increase your threat generation?
In short: What is a tank getting in place of 10% reduced damage, just the increased ability to generate threat via some of your unique powers? I don't see any other gains that haven't already been balanced out in some other way.
Again, I'm curious to see if damage mitigation will be adjusted in some way (not just through shielding) to be higher for tanks vs. non-tanks. If dps and healers are as "tanky" as tanks just minus the shield there's no fun in playing the tank. I know you guys want the game to be fun
Comments
Adding +40% hit points to Vanguard path will most likely make tenebrous enchants in offensive slot a clear best in slot for Fighter tanks. I have always thought that it was kinda sad that such an awesome enchant was useless, but this change might make them a bit overpowered?
> Am I supposed to get a railgun with the dreadnought spec?
>
>
>
> In regards to Dreadnought, I chose the name based on the intended design of the paragon path. We were looking to make the DPS fighter into a fearless avenger type. Dreadnought means "fearless," and historically was used to refer to a thick overcoat that protected the wearer against a storm. It could also be used to describe a fearless individual, and this was the case hundreds of years before its use in reference to warships.
>
> That being said, the modern definition was also considered, as of course, we exist in modern times. Evoking images of a durable and dangerous battleship, was ultimately something I did not consider to be a negative. That being said, I can understand if you have a very defined word association, it can probably feel a bit awkward. While it's not impossible that we'd rename the paragon path, we're generally aiming to avoid two word names.
<font color = "cyan"> Ooh! Ooh!
Then can Fighter Tank be called Juggernaught?
That means unstoppable, perfectly matches the theme you were going for and has awesome name synergy.
Dreadnaught (DPS)
Juggernaught (Tank)
That would be so cool.
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I am Took.
"Full plate and packing steel" in NW since 2013.
In all seriousness, Fighter class should be called Vanguard and the two paths Guardian (tank) and Juggernaut (DPS).
Reading up on the 5e Vanguard class I found this:
"Sentinel Stance
At 6th level, at the beginning of your turn you can change into the Sentinel Stance as a free action. While in this stance, you become resistant to your choice of nonmagical piercing, slashing, or bludgeoning damage, and you gain +1 to attack and damage rolls with a melee weapon. You cannot move or be moved while in this stance.
Sentinel Stance Improvement
At 10th level, your Sentinel Stance has reflected the path you have chosen. You gain the following features depending on your chosen Archetype.
Guardian: You gain +3 to AC and +1 to all attack and damage rolls with a melee weapon. When you enter this stance, you move in front of the closest ally within 60 feet, you take all attacks your ally would take while in this Stance and you move when your ally moves, always staying in front of them. You cannot take the movement action while in this stance.
Juggernaut: You gain +1 to AC and +3 to all attack and damage rolls with a melee weapon. You can move half your speed while in this stance. You can target one creature within your weapon's range, you can Fiercely strike the target, dealing twice the damage die of your weapon on a hit. The next turn, you cannot move or switch out of this stance, or use this ability again, until the turn after."
I'm guessing that's where @asterdahl found inspiration for our TAB-mechanic.
If the teleport to closest ally to shield him/her mechanic, and we could attack (at-will only?) were to be implemented, Dig In would be awesome.
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Lions stealing aggro from endgame geared Vanguard in CN at Beholder Boss.
No pet, no matter how Legendary should ever be greater threat builder then a Vanguard.
Overall, my ~6 T2 runs 3:1:1 w Vanguard were pretty good.
Held aggro better (except for the frakking Lions).
I am Took.
"Full plate and packing steel" in NW since 2013.
Please make Commander's Strike a universal encounter (Replace Knee Breaker)
Also, it's not a nerf. 140% real HP + 50% of 140% block HP = 210% HP total.
Compared to 100% + 100% = 200%. The new block is actually STRONGER, however, your shield won't last as long and your real HP will last longer.
I am not saying it it is bad or good just stating the facts.
Best
It would also give those powers a potential niche on a soloing bar and help alleviate the relative dearth of intuitive and rewarding AoEs on the tank paths.
(btw, you described Linebreaker as 'kind of a skillshot' and I was wondering if we could dig into that thinking, so to speak- the frustration with Linebreaker as anything but an opener comes from the potential for the mob shuffle AI to turn it from an AoE into an undertuned single target. I'd propose turning it into an actual skillshot, either a ground-target or camera-bound ability that halts your movement and inflicts damage in a cone when you collide with something hurtable. Lessens its utility in PvP, but improves it in PvE and even gives you an emergency dash if you slot it.)
New system: Your HP + Block HP = 210% of base HP.
No matter how many HP you have. Having more HP does not make this worse - at 360k HP (Live) you'll have ~500K HP with a ~250K HP Block in Mod 16.
Your Block will not last QUITE as long as it did when it was 360K/360K, but your real HP will last much longer especially because your block HP can't be "healed" by a healer,
With less Block HP, damage that would have been in the Block are now on you.
If heals/self-heals are strong and consistent then this change is a big improvement.
But if Block HP are easily refilled, this is less advantageous.
In this case, better to dent your shield then dent your head.
I've been cultivating stamina/shield regenerating options.
If a Vanguard can put their Block HP from 0 to full in 3-4 seconds (gap spent grabbing aggro) you would have a functional "Permashield".
Return of The Bowser, baby!
I am Took.
"Full plate and packing steel" in NW since 2013.
Brazen Thrust feat links to Piercing Thrust encounter on Vanguard.
I thought piercing thrust was removed from Vanguard.
I am Took.
"Full plate and packing steel" in NW since 2013.
I am sure @thefabricant has already stated this in the Paladin thread, but I think, retroactively, reducing the penalty of the tank passive was a mistake. That blurs the line between tank and DPS and overwhelmingly favors tank rather than DPS.
I would suggest retooling Path of the Vanguard (or the tank spec passives) to reduce the damage you deal by 50%, increase HP/Defense/and Deflect by 15%, but increase aggro generation by 400% (up from 200%). On the tank specs, you come out ahead in aggro (50% reduced damage * 4x aggro = 200%, or 2x the aggro of the comparable DPS) while keeping the tanks focused on defending.
As for the stat bonus, I suggested an improvement to HP/Defense/Deflect rather than purely HP so so the Defense or Deflect minded players don't feel like they're left out by the tank passive. I also suggested 15% because the bonus is split amongst 3 stats (45% total bonus) rather than just 1 stat, in addition to "13.333%" being janky from a description perspective.
I can keep the Boat/Coat name so as long as the class is fun to play. If it bothers more people besides my joking side, you could truncate Battle Master as "Battlemaster", which isn't grammatically correct, but still keeps the idea. he suggested Juggernaut name is also evocative of the playstyle style envisioned.
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I saw a few complaints about Enduring Warrior, here's my idea for a DnD themed revamp.
Seeing as how there have been complaints about Enduring Warrior, I'd suggest changing Enduring Warrior to "Strength Before Death". Change effect to "if you are at 35% or below HP, attacks deal their effects as a 5 second DoT. The DoT deals 1/5th of the attack's normal damage per second. The DoT effect(s) be cleared by Second Wind.
While the idea is from the Samurai of the Xanathar's Guide to Everything suppliment and not the western European themed Fighter as a whole, the feat sounded too perfect to give up for the tank spec.
I wanted an interesting and useful "oh god I'm going to die need to survive" passive. It took me a while to think of a unique effect for the "delayed death" theme and I eventually took inspiration from Payday 2's Stoic perkdeck, which also has the "delayed death" theme.
I don't think it's broken in PvE because you should not be getting to low health in perfect/good play.
I don't think it'd be broken in PvP because the tank spec (hopefully) has the 50% reduced damage from the passive, making them that annoying person that can't kill you, but simply bogs you down while trying to take the node.
I am sure @thefabricant has already stated this in the Paladin thread, but I think, retroactively, reducing the penalty of the tank passive was a mistake. That blurs the line between tank and DPS and overwhelmingly favors tank rather than DPS.
@rjc9000
If dps are still ahead with 20+% feel free to elaborate how so ....
The former Vanguard DPS penalty was way too harsh, limited our ability to Tank.
That extra DPS fits into the Jane Equation and boosts our aggro.
No one is going to drop their DPS build and go tank because of this slight improvement in our DPS.
We still suck at DPS. Not in competition with Dreadnaught at all.
But we need some DPS to tank and survive. This was a smart move.
I am Took.
"Full plate and packing steel" in NW since 2013.
No matter which spec you run, you are using the same base damage values for the class. The damage of Shield Slam is always 250 magnitude, Anvil is 1000, Cleave 15, so on and so forth for all the shared powers. Another key thing to note is that under the new aggro system, everyone is encouraged to DPS: DPS because it's their job, tanks for holding aggro, and healers to pass the time while babysitting.
So if everyone is encouraged to play DPS and can play DPS because of stat homogenization, what's the difference between a tank and DPS?
The only difference in ability damage between the specs was the penalty to damage. 30% was a material difference, but 10% is not. An example of 10% being immaterial is Vengeance in its current state: right now, you could play the Boat spec without touching Vengeance because 10% was not a big enough difference to be worth the hassle of using the potty squat mechanic or trying to stand toe to toe.
You could also argue, "the DPS tree makes a difference", but right now, it doesn't. Most of the feats are too specific or require so much Vengeance that losing the occasional 300 magnitude damage on (x) ability isn't worth the hassle of playing violation of common sense or using the potty squat.
Even with the new penalty, you could argue the 22% damage difference (10% penalty*10% Vengeance) is a material difference that you *would* play a DPS spec over a tank spec. I would argue, no, it isn't: if I get to nearly double my HP (close to +120,000 for most players) and my only loss is "lose 50,000-100,000 damage on encounters you use every 12-15 seconds", what is discouraging me from running tank over a spec besides the random queue system?
I don't mind increasing aggro multipliers by a drastic amount so tanks have aggro without needing to DPS (I don't think a 40% gain in aggro will help too much, but I'll roll with it and see). I also don't mind giving tank players a passive where they deal 50% more damage while alone so the bad players can solo just fine on tank spec. I also don't mind giving DPS players a larger boost to damage in exchange to larger penalty for defenses.
But right now, the border between DPS and tank is so thin that I suspect a 4 tank 1 healer setup will rise for most player.
The -30% penalty is hurting the Vanguard and a tank should do the 70%(endgame tank) of a dps, as the devs stated!
I don't want to do dmg with my Vanguard, i dont event care if i have close to 50% of a real dps CAUSE a real dps will be CA capped !! and a REAL tank should never CA !! (we have to face those mobs!)
If you gut our dps with that -30% the vanguard will just feel like a mod15 tank companion!
ps Not only a vanguard will/should never be CA capped we also have Encounters like ET(0=dmg)
If @asterdahl changed Commanders Strike to a universal encounter, that would (paired with the adjustments to base +threat rjc is suggesting) be more than enough to handle the problems players seems to have with threat generation.
Answers to the spesifc circle of players and forumers:
1.You conveniently forget to calculate the stat difference:
A defender class must invest at least 40k stats into defense.If wants to do his job.So a DPS has a head on of 40k stats. 40k/500=80% more damage.
2.DPS classes have a 10% default dps advantage.
3.Defender classes has -10% default dps penalty.
Let's sum it up.A dps by default will have 100% more damge than a dfender.So some people worry that defendes can outdps some dps.Excuse me,if with 100% damage you are outdpsed ,then it is not defenders problem,it is DPS problem.
4.Some forgot to mention that contrary to the poor defenders,DPS do not get a penalty for their role:
While Defenders do 10?% less damage,cause "they need to be tanks" .DPS do not get 10% more damage taken"cause they need to be separated from tanks"
We have a saying in my country.
"Mine is mine and yours is mine"
"you cannot have the pie full ,and the dog well fed aswell"
5.A certain player,playing a CW,soloed etos in preview.
He did not asked for dps classes to "differentiate " from tanks,cause they have-apparently-so many mitigation tools into their disposal ,but to increase the difficulty of the dungeon.
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As for tenebrous:
enchant is underperforming in preview with 3 rank13s and 1 rank14 It procs around 10% ,half of waht it should be.
The increase to Gf hp will make minimal difference: thge damage is not calculated on the sum of the equipped enchants but of the higher one;Only the chances are summed up.
If a Gf has 5 rank14s ,the damage would be still 7% of his hp.
Feedback:
phalanx daily is underwhelming.You still take damage,while not able to block.pretty sure end game bosses even with new damage modifiers will eat Gfs health in 10 secs.
So i do not see any utility there
Sharp and Rjc just happen to take their side.i dont know the reason.
Not sure if relevant but running Anvil of Doom, Heated Vengeance and Weight of Vengeance.
Entered combat. Run vengeance to around 50 without using Seethe initially. Was periodically trying anvil to test above noted skills and then began dropping in and out of Seethe to charge vengeance mid combat. This caused Seethe to lock and I was unable to re-enter Seethe from that point.
When out of combat and vengeance had run completely out I was still glowing red (but without the red eyes). Still Seethe was locked and hitting the Tab key sometimes caused the screen to 'giggle' repeatedly but nothing else. Going to the Powers tab on my Characters record and mousing over the Tab ability (that normally pops up the tool-tip labelled Seethe), was showing the label 'Lower Guard'.
Going to a campfire and changing to Vanguard and then changing back to Dreadnought reset the ability. The red glow vanished changing to Vanguard, and when back as Dreadnought and checking the Powers tab the correct tool-tip for Seethe was now correctly present again and I could enter and leave Seethe again to gain Vengeance.
Until changing paragon paths I couldn't find any way to reset the Seethe ability.
What would increased damage bring to a tank that in current state has no problems staying on top of threat list?
About tenebrous: Isn't 7% of (X+40%) more than 7% of X?
I agree 10% damage reduction seems too small, because I came to the same conclusion as others on the Dreadnought - it wasn't worth wasting the time gaining and refilling vengeance for a 10% boost, so I started ignoring it. But again, you're still not gaining anything in place of the 10% reduction in damage. What's the tradeoff? The increased hit points are traded for reduced shield so that's a wash. You're still taking a reduction in damage dealt for nothing, except some abilities that increase your threat generation?
In short: What is a tank getting in place of 10% reduced damage, just the increased ability to generate threat via some of your unique powers? I don't see any other gains that haven't already been balanced out in some other way.
Again, I'm curious to see if damage mitigation will be adjusted in some way (not just through shielding) to be higher for tanks vs. non-tanks. If dps and healers are as "tanky" as tanks just minus the shield there's no fun in playing the tank. I know you guys want the game to be fun