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Official M16: Paladin Feedback

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  • anomaleaanomalea Posts: 61Member Arc User

    @anomalea is your stamina drained?

    @obsidiancran3 No my stamina isn't drained when this is happening. Now that I'm taking my DC through, it's happening to him too. Seems to be if there are enemies in the area it triggers. I'm not in combat nor is my companion, but if there are enemies nearby it puts my OP and DC into combat mode every second.
  • majorcharvenakmajorcharvenak Posts: 739Member Arc User
    bobo#5090 said:

    So what is it gonna take to get to 20K IL so I can do this dungeon? I'm sitting at 16xxx right now. Started the toon about 3 months ago specifically to check out new mod. Have only the boons from the new campaign, and the gear I've picked up along the way. A few comps, all green maybe one or 2 blues, and one epic. Think I have one epic artifact.

    Also what are the BiS comps gonna be now for mod 16 pallys?

    @bobo et al. You might want to check out the guide @greyjay1 posted in the Citadel forums. Very nice breakdown with some helpful links which might answer some of your questions. If its helpful, give the author a shout-out.
    ~Shia~

    House Miliskeera in exile (NW)
    Sereska Miliskeera, Lvl 70 OP - Devotion (Just.)/Protection (Just.)
    Shizlee Miliskeera, Lvl 70 DC - Divine Oracle (Right.)/Anoited Champion (Faith.)
    Finithey Miliskeera, Lvl 70 HR - Stormwarden (Combat)/Pathfinder (Trapper)
    Maya Sik-Miliskeera, Lvl 70 CW - Spellstorm
    Irae Sik-Miliskeera, Lvl 70 TR - Master Inflitrator

    Member - Houseclan t'Charvon (STO)
    Shiarrael e'Tal'Aura t'Charvon, LvL 60, Rom Sci
    S'aana ir'Virinat t'Charvon, Lvl 60, Rom Eng
    T'Lyra, LvL 60, Fed, Vul Sci
    Ta'el, Lvl 60, Rom Tac
  • leonidrexleonidrex Posts: 394Member Arc User

    I have been thinking more about aggro management and reflecting more after more play.

    1) The assumptions of the design (as I understand it) is that Tanks will be about 10% behind the DPS in Damage performance. At this gap the difference in damage is easily overcome by the tank’s threat and the system works as long as the tank includes AoE in their rotations for trash.

    2) A tank with equivalent gear isn’t going to be close to that 10% mark in actual play.

    Last night’s LotMM the DPS all ran in at 80mil, I did 35mil. That’s 44% of the DPS’ output. Even if my damage counts as 2x at base I’m still short and need extra threat generation.

    At that 44% mark with Vow+TW I largely held threat. (But not always.)

    3) DPS can freely choose Damage multiplier effects on gear, Tanks must choose gear with more defensive stats because they need to survive more punishment straight up. This results in DPS having available up to another 20% Damage buff that a tank will not access.

    When I look at runs where that discrepancy exists the top DPS produces 100mil or more (140mil on one 28 minute legit run) and the tank dps barely moves. Now the tank needs 3x or 4x their base damage just to move into the realm where threat buffs will affect the outcome.

    I’m not talking 20k vs 24k here, I’m talking two 22k toons where the difference is Power and % Damage gear.

    At this point aggro management becomes onerous and the flaws in the system begin to become apparent. This doesn’t happen in non-dungeon content, because outside dungeons this dps kills everything so fast that threat is irrelevant, even in dungeons this level of dps can ignore the tank as long as they get good enough Heals. (Hence sub 30 minute runs.)

    4) 2 powers in particular could be changed to help with this for Paladin, but it’s going to take more than that to address the problems if the 3/1/1 situation is going to be resolved (eg Arcturia needs to not ignore the Tank’s Aggro, Trobriand’s cc needs to respect tank’s cc immunity).

    The 2 powers are Vow and TW.

    If Vow became a divinity power with a 2s cooldown at 50 Divinity but otherwise maintained its function it would allow a Paladin to both use its main buff (Divine Champion) and maintain threat. While also giving the Paladin a reliable way to sustain threat consistently at all times (but still keep choices needing to be made).

    TW should then go to a 20s cooldown but with a buff to its magnitude of about 100. At this level the damage it does, combined with its threat buff would make it advantageous for use in a range of situations, while right now it’s 300 divinity cost makes it problematic as you essentially shut down Divine Champion in order to make use of TW.

    5) Core class features should not be made invalid choices due to powers that you use.
    Divine Champion is basically inaccessible while the current divinity costs exist for Encounters.

    In solo play this is basically irrelevant.

    But in group play where Divine Champion should become a key aspect of play for the class, the most useful Encounter powers under the current structure invalidate the use of this feature.

    I recognise that the design goal is to make Paladin players have choices, but as it stands outside of very specific situations the definitive class feature for the role isn’t a valid choice at all. This is compounded by having 2 feats that modify the feature, one of which enhances its function when it matters and the other of which actually makes the power worse in function (because the aggro gain remains irrelevant if you cannot apply damage to the affected enemy and the reduction in defence performance makes the base power worse in all ways and you must use the lowest damage output encounters which negates the threat boost).

    In short, turning on Divine Champion turns off Divinity Encounters, but in general Divine Champion is a weaker choice than running the class feature. This is the equivalent to the Barbarian loosing their highest damage output encounters because they activated Rage (Unstoppable), but not getting the buff to at-will attack speed as well.

    Ah well tbh I don’t know if there is even a point to posting this, but there it is.

    i honestly dont see a reason to bring tank along, its better to grab amazing healer and 4x dps.
  • darthpotaterdarthpotater Posts: 601Member, NW M9 Playtest Arc User
    Divinity should only be used by healers. Tank should not have divinity bar, and divine champion should be a 20s duration feature with a CD of 20s. Smite, bane, and all the encounters should be adapted to the cooldown mechanic.

    Then OP tanks will have more options.

    Oathkeeper should not be affected, or in case, they will have more options too.
    Lescar PvE Wizard - Sir Garic PvE Paladin
    Caturday Survivor
    Elemental Evil Survivor
    Undermontain Survivor
  • benyrbenyr Posts: 140Member Arc User

    I have been thinking more about aggro management and reflecting more after more play.

    Hi @obsidiancran3

    Really value the testing you've been doing and the insight, my only concern is that on these preview forums there has been no sign of Dev interaction since Mod 16 went live, and i'm worried they are not seeing valuable feedback like this. I'd be sorely tempted to spam the live stream update threads to try and get them to address the situation they have left tanks in.

    All the best

  • obsidiancran3obsidiancran3 Posts: 1,823Member Arc User
    @benyr hence the last sentence of the essay. ;)
    Obsidian Moonlight - Paladin
    Obsidian Oath - Warlock
    A whole lot of other Obsidian toons as well.
  • obsidiancran3obsidiancran3 Posts: 1,823Member Arc User
    @leonidrex that would be the 3/1/1 problem, 4/1 is as good if not better.
    Obsidian Moonlight - Paladin
    Obsidian Oath - Warlock
    A whole lot of other Obsidian toons as well.
  • leonidrexleonidrex Posts: 394Member Arc User

    @leonidrex that would be the 3/1/1 problem, 4/1 is as good if not better.

    what i ment is why bring sack of meat that uses everything in their kit to grab aggro and deals no damage, when you can just have dps instead, anda healer that fully heals entire team every 3s ?
  • majorcharvenakmajorcharvenak Posts: 739Member Arc User
    Don't see how they could do that without a complete rollback to Mod 15 which they said they were not going to nor could they do.
    ~Shia~

    House Miliskeera in exile (NW)
    Sereska Miliskeera, Lvl 70 OP - Devotion (Just.)/Protection (Just.)
    Shizlee Miliskeera, Lvl 70 DC - Divine Oracle (Right.)/Anoited Champion (Faith.)
    Finithey Miliskeera, Lvl 70 HR - Stormwarden (Combat)/Pathfinder (Trapper)
    Maya Sik-Miliskeera, Lvl 70 CW - Spellstorm
    Irae Sik-Miliskeera, Lvl 70 TR - Master Inflitrator

    Member - Houseclan t'Charvon (STO)
    Shiarrael e'Tal'Aura t'Charvon, LvL 60, Rom Sci
    S'aana ir'Virinat t'Charvon, Lvl 60, Rom Eng
    T'Lyra, LvL 60, Fed, Vul Sci
    Ta'el, Lvl 60, Rom Tac
  • obsidiancran3obsidiancran3 Posts: 1,823Member Arc User
    leonidrex said:

    @leonidrex that would be the 3/1/1 problem, 4/1 is as good if not better.

    what i ment is why bring sack of meat that uses everything in their kit to grab aggro and deals no damage, when you can just have dps instead, anda healer that fully heals entire team every 3s ?
    Did I stutter?

    Obsidian Moonlight - Paladin
    Obsidian Oath - Warlock
    A whole lot of other Obsidian toons as well.
  • leonidrexleonidrex Posts: 394Member Arc User

    leonidrex said:

    @leonidrex that would be the 3/1/1 problem, 4/1 is as good if not better.

    what i ment is why bring sack of meat that uses everything in their kit to grab aggro and deals no damage, when you can just have dps instead, anda healer that fully heals entire team every 3s ?
    Did I stutter?

    ofc not, you said its 3/1/1 problem . its not. its tank problem.
  • obsidiancran3obsidiancran3 Posts: 1,823Member Arc User
    You understand that 3/1/1 means tanks matter in dungeons right?

    So when I write 2 short essays outlining problems with tanks, the problem with 3/1/1 is that tanks don’t matter.
    Obsidian Moonlight - Paladin
    Obsidian Oath - Warlock
    A whole lot of other Obsidian toons as well.
  • obsidiancran3obsidiancran3 Posts: 1,823Member Arc User
    edited May 19
    Oh and while I’m feeling testy about tanking:

    Arcturia teleports away from the tank, no tank class has a ranged way to get aggro that is spammable that will hold aggro and has high dps. (If there was more time between mimic phases, it would not be so bad, as it is I still end up needing RA to get into lane just to stop the lane filling with butterfly cc patches.)

    There is an exception with Smite, but if you are using Smite for aggro you will likely not have enough Divinity to clear the mimics, because Smite isn’t real aggro. So you either loose aggro when she leaves, get woefully out of position for mimics, or loose the ability to kill mimics, all of which are bad.

    Tanks are so useless on the second boss for most groups they want the Paladin to swap to heals.

    My advice @asterdahl go run this dungeon as tank with some teams on live, there’s a handy thread showing screen caps of people that are completing it.
    Obsidian Moonlight - Paladin
    Obsidian Oath - Warlock
    A whole lot of other Obsidian toons as well.
  • majorcharvenakmajorcharvenak Posts: 739Member Arc User
    bobo#5090 said:

    Don't see how they could do that without a complete rollback to Mod 15 which they said they were not going to nor could they do.

    They could, they just don't want to cuz that would be them admitting they screwed the pooch big time with this mod. They still have all the code for mod 15 on console, I know it would take work, but they could rewrite the pc code back to what is live on console now, and just add in the new content with mod 15 mechanics. And from reading alot on the forums that is what the playerbase wants.

    At the very least(especially since this isn't a true cross platform game) they could leave consoles without the new mod while they fix all the issues, and remove scaling as it is on pc now. Then release the new content to consoles, preferably with mod 15 mechanics left in tact. It's not like they're ever gonna allow pc/xbox/ps4 cross platform play anyhow so why not at least keep the console gamers happy by not HAMSTER us over the way they did pc. I know, I'm biased just a lot...

    Hey, just telling you what mimicking passed during that podcast and after all that time (and whatever money) they spent on the changes, even if they admitted they screwed the pooch, they're not going back. They don't have the manpower to maintain the game in its previous incarnation. Even if you're right and they could, would the playerbase that was lost with the mod even show back up? All is forgiven I take it? It is what it is bobo. Either accept it and face the changes or bounce. That's really all you can do at this point.
    ~Shia~

    House Miliskeera in exile (NW)
    Sereska Miliskeera, Lvl 70 OP - Devotion (Just.)/Protection (Just.)
    Shizlee Miliskeera, Lvl 70 DC - Divine Oracle (Right.)/Anoited Champion (Faith.)
    Finithey Miliskeera, Lvl 70 HR - Stormwarden (Combat)/Pathfinder (Trapper)
    Maya Sik-Miliskeera, Lvl 70 CW - Spellstorm
    Irae Sik-Miliskeera, Lvl 70 TR - Master Inflitrator

    Member - Houseclan t'Charvon (STO)
    Shiarrael e'Tal'Aura t'Charvon, LvL 60, Rom Sci
    S'aana ir'Virinat t'Charvon, Lvl 60, Rom Eng
    T'Lyra, LvL 60, Fed, Vul Sci
    Ta'el, Lvl 60, Rom Tac
  • obsidiancran3obsidiancran3 Posts: 1,823Member Arc User
    @asterdahl any chance you could explain why Divine Champion doesn’t work against Trobriand’s cone’s CC?

    In a given run I’m lucky to avoid this CC 1 time. Not because I’m standing in it on screen, no, my screen shows me standing behind him.watching video of other Paladins and I see them able to walk out of this power just fine. But apparently my lag is just enough here that I cannot effectively avoid this CC.

    If our CC immunity frames from class worked on it, it would be manageable, but they don’t.
    Obsidian Moonlight - Paladin
    Obsidian Oath - Warlock
    A whole lot of other Obsidian toons as well.
  • finmakinfinmakin Posts: 238Member Arc User
    leonidrex said:

    leonidrex said:

    @leonidrex that would be the 3/1/1 problem, 4/1 is as good if not better.

    what i ment is why bring sack of meat that uses everything in their kit to grab aggro and deals no damage, when you can just have dps instead, anda healer that fully heals entire team every 3s ?
    Did I stutter?

    ofc not, you said its 3/1/1 problem . its not. its tank problem.
    You are funny

    Ogguk Sanctus… Oathbound Paladin
    670k HP (and rising)

    Member of NWLC Alpha
  • leonidrexleonidrex Posts: 394Member Arc User
    finmakin said:

    leonidrex said:

    leonidrex said:

    @leonidrex that would be the 3/1/1 problem, 4/1 is as good if not better.

    what i ment is why bring sack of meat that uses everything in their kit to grab aggro and deals no damage, when you can just have dps instead, anda healer that fully heals entire team every 3s ?
    Did I stutter?

    ofc not, you said its 3/1/1 problem . its not. its tank problem.
    You are funny

    thank you.
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