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  • obsidiancran3obsidiancran3 Posts: 1,823Member Arc User
    Also for level 80 content how much ArP, Crit Strike, Accuracy and Defence do you have?

    If they are not all over 60k, even up to 70k, that will cause a problem.

    For level 70 content they all need to be up around 57k (but if you just tank that stuff high 40s on the offence stats is fine as long as your defence is high 50s).
    Obsidian Moonlight - Paladin
    Obsidian Oath - Warlock
    A whole lot of other Obsidian toons as well.
  • ron#1747 ron Posts: 65Member Arc User
    > @obsidiancran3 said:
    > Also for level 80 content how much ArP, Crit Strike, Accuracy and Defence do you have?
    >
    > If they are not all over 60k, even up to 70k, that will cause a problem.
    >
    > For level 70 content they all need to be up around 57k (but if you just tank that stuff high 40s on the offence stats is fine as long as your defence is high 50s).

    Remember that a lot of paladins are not tanks and don't need defense. But armor pen and crit are indeed important
  • obsidiancran3obsidiancran3 Posts: 1,823Member Arc User
    > @ron#1747 said:
    > > @obsidiancran3 said:
    > > Also for level 80 content how much ArP, Crit Strike, Accuracy and Defence do you have?
    > >
    > > If they are not all over 60k, even up to 70k, that will cause a problem.
    > >
    > > For level 70 content they all need to be up around 57k (but if you just tank that stuff high 40s on the offence stats is fine as long as your defence is high 50s).
    >
    > Remember that a lot of paladins are not tanks and don't need defense. But armor pen and crit are indeed important

    Even if you are not a tank you need defence, it increases survivability. I aim for defence cap on my Warlock as well, neglecting it just makes things harder.
    Obsidian Moonlight - Paladin
    Obsidian Oath - Warlock
    A whole lot of other Obsidian toons as well.
  • ron#1747 ron Posts: 65Member Arc User
    > @obsidiancran3 said:
    > > @ron#1747 said:
    > > > @obsidiancran3 said:
    > > > Also for level 80 content how much ArP, Crit Strike, Accuracy and Defence do you have?
    > > >
    > > > If they are not all over 60k, even up to 70k, that will cause a problem.
    > > >
    > > > For level 70 content they all need to be up around 57k (but if you just tank that stuff high 40s on the offence stats is fine as long as your defence is high 50s).
    > >
    > > Remember that a lot of paladins are not tanks and don't need defense. But armor pen and crit are indeed important
    >
    > Even if you are not a tank you need defence, it increases survivability. I aim for defence cap on my Warlock as well, neglecting it just makes things harder.

    Indeed! But still, no need to cap it. There are other stats we should cup before defence
  • obsidiancran3obsidiancran3 Posts: 1,823Member Arc User
    > @bobo#5090 said:
    >
    > No coins for enchants as this toon was created specifically to test changes to pally before it hits console. I play on xbox 99%. But no, this guys numbers aren't that high, hes lvl 80, all r8 enchants, and all r9 runestones. Has undermountain weapons, and armor is a mix of seal vendor and drops.
    >
    > Nothing is higher than 47k(power), awareness is rubbish at less than 20k IIRC. I'll have to look laterer, but I wanna say defence is around 36k. Like I said, hes not end game geared like my xbox toon, and this is for testing purposes only.

    Right, so the problem you have with Arcturia has nothing to do with her difficulty for a Paladin. She is the first break point you hit if your gear isn’t cutting it (Umbraxakar seems to be the second).

    When you have 60k in ArP and Accuracy and a similar amount of power she dies readily for a Paladin, just like all the other classes. And the further away from cap, the more effective her defences and the harder she is to kill for any class.

    There may well be a problem, but it’s not in the Paladin.
    Obsidian Moonlight - Paladin
    Obsidian Oath - Warlock
    A whole lot of other Obsidian toons as well.
  • leonidrexleonidrex Posts: 394Member Arc User

    > @bobo#5090 said:

    >

    > No coins for enchants as this toon was created specifically to test changes to pally before it hits console. I play on xbox 99%. But no, this guys numbers aren't that high, hes lvl 80, all r8 enchants, and all r9 runestones. Has undermountain weapons, and armor is a mix of seal vendor and drops.

    >

    > Nothing is higher than 47k(power), awareness is rubbish at less than 20k IIRC. I'll have to look laterer, but I wanna say defence is around 36k. Like I said, hes not end game geared like my xbox toon, and this is for testing purposes only.



    Right, so the problem you have with Arcturia has nothing to do with her difficulty for a Paladin. She is the first break point you hit if your gear isn’t cutting it (Umbraxakar seems to be the second).



    When you have 60k in ArP and Accuracy and a similar amount of power she dies readily for a Paladin, just like all the other classes. And the further away from cap, the more effective her defences and the harder she is to kill for any class.



    There may well be a problem, but it’s not in the Paladin.

    when did you test that? i have almost 100k accuracy and normal mobs still deflect my attacks, there might be some weird stat issue going on, making mobs have way more then they are supposed to,
    there used to be 500 = 1% in stats, now its 1000 = 1%. if they value for mobs didn cchange, we need twice as much stats.
    possibility for oversight.
  • obsidiancran3obsidiancran3 Posts: 1,823Member Arc User
    @adinosii compiled a nice summary here:
    https://docs.google.com/document/d/12AXzQrEQOeGZfAk7YolOH7YWE7qTmWe49sCwH-RATDg

    Any situation where your attacks are being deflected where you exceed the expected cap should be reported as a potential bug. (Just make sure you have 57k or higher in scaled content.)

    Note there are also debuffs in Master Expeditions that can tank your Accuracy (hurts when you get that and the power debuff), and they may not show on your buff bar (I have seen this bug reported).
    Obsidian Moonlight - Paladin
    Obsidian Oath - Warlock
    A whole lot of other Obsidian toons as well.
  • majorcharvenakmajorcharvenak Posts: 739Member Arc User
    bobo#5090 said:



    Hey Bobo. I'm probably wrong but do you have smite slotted as well as divine touch? That seems like a lot of divinity in just one rotation. Which cooldown power are you using? Is it just absolution?

    I'm still working thru the new mechanics, but yes I was trying to use both as I ran out of pots, and stones. Not that divine touch cured me for much anyhow. I think the potions did better...

    Not really aware of any divinity cooldown on the justy. I haven't tried my healer yet, I should as in mod 15 he hit noticeably harder than my tank in mod 15.
    Yeah. On the justicar side, pots and stones are much more effective imho than DT will be for tanks given that it costs so much to cast. What I meant by "cooldown" wasn't divinity, it was the encounters that have cooldowns vice those that require divinity to cast. My point I want to make to both paragons is that we (figuratively speaking) bleed divinity. If you're running solo you might want to adopt a 2 on 1 strategy for your encounters (if you're not doing that already). Which ever ones work for you but 2 on 1 being either two encounters with cooldown and one divinity or two with divinity and one with a cooldown. Going three of the same seems to cause problems if you either don't time your cooldowns just right or you spam too many of your divinity draining powers all at once. I will say its much easier to do that on an Oathkeeper vice a Justicar but I think you'll find it a bit more dynamic than hunkering behind a shield waiting for either your encounters to come off cooldown or your divinity recharging. My two cents.
    ~Shia~

    House Miliskeera in exile (NW)
    Sereska Miliskeera, Lvl 70 OP - Devotion (Just.)/Protection (Just.)
    Shizlee Miliskeera, Lvl 70 DC - Divine Oracle (Right.)/Anoited Champion (Faith.)
    Finithey Miliskeera, Lvl 70 HR - Stormwarden (Combat)/Pathfinder (Trapper)
    Maya Sik-Miliskeera, Lvl 70 CW - Spellstorm
    Irae Sik-Miliskeera, Lvl 70 TR - Master Inflitrator

    Member - Houseclan t'Charvon (STO)
    Shiarrael e'Tal'Aura t'Charvon, LvL 60, Rom Sci
    S'aana ir'Virinat t'Charvon, Lvl 60, Rom Eng
    T'Lyra, LvL 60, Fed, Vul Sci
    Ta'el, Lvl 60, Rom Tac
  • leonidrexleonidrex Posts: 394Member Arc User

    @adinosii compiled a nice summary here:

    https://docs.google.com/document/d/12AXzQrEQOeGZfAk7YolOH7YWE7qTmWe49sCwH-RATDg



    Any situation where your attacks are being deflected where you exceed the expected cap should be reported as a potential bug. (Just make sure you have 57k or higher in scaled content.)



    Note there are also debuffs in Master Expeditions that can tank your Accuracy (hurts when you get that and the power debuff), and they may not show on your buff bar (I have seen this bug reported).

    i was expecting the bug from lvl 70, leveling forward. started at lvl 70 with around 80k accurace, worked my way to level 80 with 100k. no scaling involved whatsoever, both ME and normal enemies. I dont report bugs becouse they dont get fixed.
    Sarcasm is all they gonna get cuz sarcasm is all they deserve.
  • obsidiancran3obsidiancran3 Posts: 1,823Member Arc User
    MEs without Runes are simple solo content.

    ME with 1 Rune may be a challenge, but is solo content as well.
    Obsidian Moonlight - Paladin
    Obsidian Oath - Warlock
    A whole lot of other Obsidian toons as well.
  • anomaleaanomalea Posts: 61Member Arc User
    Did a search but couldn't find this mentioned anywhere:

    After a fight, my pally sometimes stays in combat mode, going in and out of it every second, like the DC used to a long time ago. Neither my companion nor I are in combat when this is happening. Makes it near impossible to mount up or frob anything. Tried turning on combat logs to see what was causing it but nothing showed. Ideas? Fixes?
  • obsidiancran3obsidiancran3 Posts: 1,823Member Arc User
    @anomalea is your stamina drained?
    Obsidian Moonlight - Paladin
    Obsidian Oath - Warlock
    A whole lot of other Obsidian toons as well.
  • lowjohnlowjohn Posts: 1,010Member, NW M9 Playtest Arc User
    bobo#5090 said:

    MEs without Runes are simple solo content.



    ME with 1 Rune may be a challenge, but is solo content as well.

    Runes are found where? I've asked in alliance chat, and guild and gotten crickets...

    Also what is the difference in the IL of the drops between runes and no runes?
    You must:
    1) Be level 80
    2) complete the Undermountain Campaign
    3) Talk to the rune-selling lady on the second floor of the Yawning Portal, around the corner from the Master Expedition questgiver.

    She'll give you a quest to collect coloured runic plot coupons.

    Go to any of the Undermountain zones and look on the map for a bug coloured runic HE marker. Go there, fight monsters. You'll collect the runic plot coupons. Keep doing these HEs in the various Undermountain zones until you have lots of runic coupons.

    In the Master Expedition, you can turn 10 Runic HE coupons into 1 Rune of the matching type, in the first area with the altar-looking things over on the right.

    Does that help?
  • majorcharvenakmajorcharvenak Posts: 739Member Arc User
    lowjohn said:

    bobo#5090 said:

    MEs without Runes are simple solo content.



    ME with 1 Rune may be a challenge, but is solo content as well.

    Runes are found where? I've asked in alliance chat, and guild and gotten crickets...

    Also what is the difference in the IL of the drops between runes and no runes?
    You must:
    1) Be level 80
    2) complete the Undermountain Campaign
    3) Talk to the rune-selling lady on the second floor of the Yawning Portal, around the corner from the Master Expedition questgiver.

    She'll give you a quest to collect coloured runic plot coupons.

    Go to any of the Undermountain zones and look on the map for a bug coloured runic HE marker. Go there, fight monsters. You'll collect the runic plot coupons. Keep doing these HEs in the various Undermountain zones until you have lots of runic coupons.

    In the Master Expedition, you can turn 10 Runic HE coupons into 1 Rune of the matching type, in the first area with the altar-looking things over on the right.

    Does that help?
    Hey bobo,

    Just to piggyback off of @lowjohn response, after you run the quest from the rune selling lady the first time, you run the HEs for the runic resonances. Like he mentioned, you'll need at least 10 to create a matching rune.

    As far as the il drop difference. With no runes you can't open the chest at the end so you'll get nothing extra other than any gear that might drop after a boss fight. IL that might drop during boss fights, seemed to drop a bit more when a rune was used than it was without when I ran them on preview but ran the gambit of blue drops to 1K IL purples.
    ~Shia~

    House Miliskeera in exile (NW)
    Sereska Miliskeera, Lvl 70 OP - Devotion (Just.)/Protection (Just.)
    Shizlee Miliskeera, Lvl 70 DC - Divine Oracle (Right.)/Anoited Champion (Faith.)
    Finithey Miliskeera, Lvl 70 HR - Stormwarden (Combat)/Pathfinder (Trapper)
    Maya Sik-Miliskeera, Lvl 70 CW - Spellstorm
    Irae Sik-Miliskeera, Lvl 70 TR - Master Inflitrator

    Member - Houseclan t'Charvon (STO)
    Shiarrael e'Tal'Aura t'Charvon, LvL 60, Rom Sci
    S'aana ir'Virinat t'Charvon, Lvl 60, Rom Eng
    T'Lyra, LvL 60, Fed, Vul Sci
    Ta'el, Lvl 60, Rom Tac
  • obsidiancran3obsidiancran3 Posts: 1,823Member Arc User
    The iL is minimal on the gear at the end of the ME with just 1 rune.

    On live the trend has been to run 3x Rage runes, but my experience has been that you are far better off running 1 Chaos Rune and getting it done with 2-3 other people in 10 minutes.

    When you trade in the Runic Etching to the goblin under the stairs this gets you 8k RAD and a (small) chance at artifact gear. Making it a much better investment of time (as 30 Essence takes about 30 minutes to get depending what HEs spawn).

    MEs are for the 950iL gear that drops from the bosses. If you get very lucky you can pull 1k iL gear.

    The goblin’s chests also have 950 and 1k iL gear in them, but mostly you get potions that are useless. (It’s the 5k RAD that makes him worthwhile.)
    Obsidian Moonlight - Paladin
    Obsidian Oath - Warlock
    A whole lot of other Obsidian toons as well.
  • fenrir4lifefenrir4life Posts: 295Member Arc User

    The iL is minimal on the gear at the end of the ME with just 1 rune.



    On live the trend has been to run 3x Rage runes, but my experience has been that you are far better off running 1 Chaos Rune and getting it done with 2-3 other people in 10 minutes.



    When you trade in the Runic Etching to the goblin under the stairs this gets you 8k RAD and a (small) chance at artifact gear. Making it a much better investment of time (as 30 Essence takes about 30 minutes to get depending what HEs spawn).



    MEs are for the 950iL gear that drops from the bosses. If you get very lucky you can pull 1k iL gear.



    The goblin’s chests also have 950 and 1k iL gear in them, but mostly you get potions that are useless. (It’s the 5k RAD that makes him worthwhile.)

    So, what ratings are you looking to have for ME's with various rune types?
  • obsidiancran3obsidiancran3 Posts: 1,823Member Arc User
    They are level 80, so 60k is the minimum target. I have 70k minimum in ArP, Crit and Def and at least 50k in other stats.
    Obsidian Moonlight - Paladin
    Obsidian Oath - Warlock
    A whole lot of other Obsidian toons as well.
  • obsidiancran3obsidiancran3 Posts: 1,823Member Arc User
    As I play more, Warlock, Barbarian and Paladin there are things that I see that are a concern for me for the long term viability of the Paladin as the game expands and evolves.

    The first concern is buffs/debuffs. Yes we have our Aura, but the reality is 4% max extra Crit chance that may or may not exceed cap isn’t adequate compared to 5-10% additional damage that other classes offer. In essence as the content evolves the demand will be for the classes that offer these buffs/debuffs and this leaves the Paladin out in the cold for both specs.

    The second concern is removal of debuffs, specifically for the Oathkeeper. The Warlock can remove debuffs from the whole party repeatedly while healing the whole party (well ok the Warlock isn’t healed or cleansed, but the rest of their party is). This one is relevant right now, with several old end game dungeons making extensive use of this strategy to increase difficulty. In essence the inability to negate/remove debuffs from the party makes the class undesirable. Yes we can cleanse 1 ally at a time, but compare to DC and Warlock affecting the whole party, this isn’t effective in time precious situations like boss fights where these mechanics are most commonly applied.
    Obsidian Moonlight - Paladin
    Obsidian Oath - Warlock
    A whole lot of other Obsidian toons as well.
  • fenrir4lifefenrir4life Posts: 295Member Arc User

    They are level 80, so 60k is the minimum target. I have 70k minimum in ArP, Crit and Def and at least 50k in other stats.

    I guess that explains why everything is deflecting; I'm grabbing every source of Accuracy I can and still sitting at around 25k.
  • welshdemonwelshdemon Posts: 45Member Arc User
    Hello everyone so just fo the record this is not a blaming the devs post it is my own opion on tanking now.
    So I hve found tanking a nightmare I keep losing aggro very quickly and u may say we hve enough threat skills and u r correct but here is the problem:-
    1) vow of enmity is a 18 sec cooldown and that is too long man just too long
    2) sacred weapon is a stupid 27 sec cooldown again this is so scary u just cant use it for aggro
    3) TW is our best threat skill because it is only 5 sec cooldown but here is the crappy part it cost 300 DIVINTY that is imo stupid. Because if we use TW we cant use tab skill because of the cost of divinity for TW

    So as u can see since the new update tanking for a pally is now very difficult it is not to say we cant do it but the tools we require r not available because eof either long CD or cost of divinity.

    I welcome advice form other pallies on ways to combat these problems.

    Again I want to state I am not blaming anyone this is my take of the state of pallies
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • obsidiancran3obsidiancran3 Posts: 1,823Member Arc User
    @welshdemon

    Ways of getting aggro:

    Oath Strike - its an AoE at-will that gives you aggro. Run it.
    Sacred Weapon - 10s of increased threat, should be feated for even more threat.
    Templar's Wrath - ?? duration increased threat. Costs Divinity.
    Divine Champion + Intimidating Presence Feat - costs divinity.

    Special mention: Vow of Enmity. This power puts you at the top of the threat list for all affected targets, however, this is not the same as generating threat. After using this you must use something else to sustain threat.

    Special Mention 2: Aura of Valor, reduces the threat of allies near you by 5%.

    Special Mention 3: Divine Challenger, makes smite work like Vow of Enmity for the target of smite. So useful on solo bosses.

    My Starting Set Up For Scaled Content:
    Oath Strike, Radiant Strike
    Vow of Vengeance/Wrath, Composure
    Vow of Enmity, Relentless Avenger, Burning Light
    Divine Judgement/Radiant Charge, Shield of Faith

    Vengeance with a low CC party, Wrath with a high CC one. (Note CC is much more effective in dungeons now, it’s part of why Burning Light is so useful.)

    If you are having Aggro issues, and DPS isn’t running ahead, swap Relentless for Sacred Weapon.

    Before starting a fight; hit Tab.
    Start fight with Vow.
    Then RA, then once the mobs are bunched on you hit BL.
    Take a few more hits with Tab on then turn it off and hit Shield of Faith. Then mix Oath Strike and Shift to hold aggro and rebuild Divinity/AP.

    For unscaled content I’m looking at running basically the same rotation but using Intimidating Presence + Tab to help with aggro management, as getting to cap for end game content is far easier for everyone!
    Obsidian Moonlight - Paladin
    Obsidian Oath - Warlock
    A whole lot of other Obsidian toons as well.
  • majorcharvenakmajorcharvenak Posts: 739Member Arc User
    edited May 11

    As I play more, Warlock, Barbarian and Paladin there are things that I see that are a concern for me for the long term viability of the Paladin as the game expands and evolves.



    The first concern is buffs/debuffs. Yes we have our Aura, but the reality is 4% max extra Crit chance that may or may not exceed cap isn’t adequate compared to 5-10% additional damage that other classes offer. In essence as the content evolves the demand will be for the classes that offer these buffs/debuffs and this leaves the Paladin out in the cold for both specs.



    The second concern is removal of debuffs, specifically for the Oathkeeper. The Warlock can remove debuffs from the whole party repeatedly while healing the whole party (well ok the Warlock isn’t healed or cleansed, but the rest of their party is). This one is relevant right now, with several old end game dungeons making extensive use of this strategy to increase difficulty. In essence the inability to negate/remove debuffs from the party makes the class undesirable. Yes we can cleanse 1 ally at a time, but compare to DC and Warlock affecting the whole party, this isn’t effective in time precious situations like boss fights where these mechanics are most commonly applied.

    ^THIS! How many times did I post in these forums that cleansing touch needed to remove negative effects from the target and allies within its limited aoe? @asterdahl? Why was this ability REMOVED from Cleansing Touch? It worked that way for 9 mods and now it has to be accomplished one person at a time for the Oathkeeper when compared with the Devout and Soulweaver. I can understand having our healing magnitudes being less than the other healers. I DON'T understand why the removal of negative effects allies was limited to just one at a time for the oathkeeper and not for the other paragon paths. If you mention the shorter cast time and lesser divinity cost of 30, I'll remind you that removing negative effects from four party members requires 120 points and has to be cast 4 times, while Cleansing Light only needs to be cast...once at 90 points for the same effect.
    ~Shia~

    House Miliskeera in exile (NW)
    Sereska Miliskeera, Lvl 70 OP - Devotion (Just.)/Protection (Just.)
    Shizlee Miliskeera, Lvl 70 DC - Divine Oracle (Right.)/Anoited Champion (Faith.)
    Finithey Miliskeera, Lvl 70 HR - Stormwarden (Combat)/Pathfinder (Trapper)
    Maya Sik-Miliskeera, Lvl 70 CW - Spellstorm
    Irae Sik-Miliskeera, Lvl 70 TR - Master Inflitrator

    Member - Houseclan t'Charvon (STO)
    Shiarrael e'Tal'Aura t'Charvon, LvL 60, Rom Sci
    S'aana ir'Virinat t'Charvon, Lvl 60, Rom Eng
    T'Lyra, LvL 60, Fed, Vul Sci
    Ta'el, Lvl 60, Rom Tac
  • raziel2004#7353 raziel2004 Posts: 47Member Arc User
    Maybe they don't want oathkeeper to be 'superior' healer then cleric. Oathkeeper already bring barrier and soulweaver has good dps. Cleric?
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