There aren't 48 roles. There are 48 styles of play, but there are only 5 roles. Healers, buffers, tanks, DPS and CC. So yeah.
I count tanking and CCing as the same role, they both fulfill the role of aggro management. CC works better against many enemies which do significant burst damage but are vulnerable to CC (they aren't tankable) while tanking works better against small groups of enemies where the incoming damage can be managed via damage mitigation tools. Currently we have no content designed for CC, so you see 0 CC classes occupying a spot. So long as OPs have millions of temp hp, a CC Class will never see use in the meta, because the incoming damage can pretty much never exceed the durability of that class. By the same token however, if CC did ever see use in a dungeon, I expect it would be at the expense of a tank since the 2 roles are interchangeable.
I disagree with the thought that tanks and crowd control are the same role. They are not, though a tank can do some CC but the main job of a tank is to hold threat. If you do CC the enemies are not threaten because they are being held in place, confused, stunned, etc... Enemies not CC need a tank to hold threat so that the enemy is not focused on the damage dealer or healer so that those two roles can properly do their jobs in group content.
IMO this game needs a Controller role which should include not only CC effects but be the primary role for buffing the group and debuffing enemies. Tanks and Healers should also be able to buff but not to the same level.
I played other games where Controllers had defined roles as well as Tanks and Healers and only a Controller could do CC effectively against multiple targets and do it at a safe range. The tanks could only CC in melee range and most of their CC were to knockdown the enemies. This other game bosses could be CC but it requires the CC stat to be fairly high but it was possible. The other thing is the Controller role was the lone group buffer and debuffer for content. Also, if you ran with two controllers, the buff and debuff would not stack, this ensured that there was no stacking of a specific role to improve run time.
It would be nice to see a controller role in NW but with how NW is currently there is no major need for a CC role.
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putzboy78Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,950Arc User
I know that many do not like being forced to run with 1-1-3 but if the devs removed private q it would solve the double DC issue immediately and they could state that it is a short term solution until they can update the game to provide more options for buffers, balance the damage dealers and support role classes in the game.
When has a temporary compromise in this game ever been temporary?
How would you complete a TONG in a 1-1-3 format. When tank would have to be OP and healer would have to be AC. Who wins in that solution? GF or DOs?
What rush dictates the need for a temporary solution?
And as I've mentioned many many times, why isn't reward balancing between random and private not an option even if temporary?
The 2 DC nerf seemingly will free up a tank and DC for more groups.
Except it won't, in TONG most GFs cannot handle the tanking role and DO can not handle the final boss because the AA cc immunity is almost required. Would be essential in a low dps group.
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micky1p00Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 3,594Arc User
edited January 2018
Controlling aggro is by definition a form of CC. You force an enemy to do what you wont it do, hitting you, and not what is optimal for it, hitting the squishy striker.
Tanks ARE a subset of controllers. You can freeze someone, or you can force someone to bash only you. That is CC.
And until aggro control immune mobs are introduced, tanks are the superior controllers (and the only, in practice) in the game.
Except it won't, in TONG most GFs cannot handle the tanking role and DO can not handle the final boss because the AA cc immunity is almost required. Would be essential in a low dps group.
Tomb of the Nine Gods isn't the only content in the game though...
Not everyone is end game...
The freed up tank and Dc will be available to run other content.
ALL Rights Reserved for any and all suggestions, ideas, etc. from this user.
“There are changes that can be made that don’t require coding...” - TriNitY "No amount of coding will change human behavior" - TriNitY
I own a tactitian GF myself, but having 4 loadouts I never would even think about doing dailies or content that way... I could even unslot my weapon on top.
No I switch to my SM conqueror loadouts and melt content.
Same as DC, i chose rightous not Faithfull. This argument is invalid running several loadouts since mod..10?
> @wizardlvl80#5963 said: > I own a tactitian GF myself, but having 4 loadouts I never would even think about doing dailies or content that way... I could even unslot my weapon on top. > > No I switch to my SM conqueror loadouts and melt content. > > Same as DC, i chose rightous not Faithfull. This argument is invalid running several loadouts since mod..10? > > @schietindebux > > Next time please read the full discussion and you will understand my references. I even quoted thing I was refering to lol.
I don't understand what you refer to? You are upset about the facto that your tactitian deals hamster DPS, mine too. The company gave every toon two loadout s for present. If you decide to waste one of them for a second tactitian loadout instead of taking a DPS spec, i think you made a mistake?
Or the freed up tank and DC will be able to get on their other characters and still run Tomb. The player is not removed from the group, only the character. There are a lot of people running DC right now only because it is useful to them to do so. Even those of us who have long mained DCs may want to run other characters. We are not resources to be freed up for your use.
"We have always been at war with Dread Vault" ~ Little Brother
Except it won't, in TONG most GFs cannot handle the tanking role and DO can not handle the final boss because the AA cc immunity is almost required. Would be essential in a low dps group.
The statement you just posted clearly shows that players are ignoring mechanics due to AA cc immunity. Similar to how AA was abused up until mod 11 for the damage immunity it offered.
As others pointed out it is not just TONG where 2 DCs are being called out for runs. FBI, MSPC, eToS, VT, etc...I see call out for various content where groups like running with 2 DC for faster runs, especially if the other 3 players are DPS.
I agree that a temp fix of removing private q would be anything but temporary. That is why I'm going to state this again, this game needs a revamp. How it is done I will leave to the devs. But it really needs one.
If you don't like private queue don't use it. But don't tell other people that they can only play certain classes as fixed rolls, that they can't play with their friends or find replacements for people that have to drop. Cryptic has already gone this route with the Random Queues and it isn't working so well.
"We have always been at war with Dread Vault" ~ Little Brother
Instead of changing the core class and everything else around it, take a look at other classes that can help a party. Now I wont suggest "Add a Bard" because as cryptic likes to say is we must class balance! For the last two years, this has been told over and over. So what I am suggesting is look at other classes that could be improved for people to take into more dungeons. Ive had many thoughts on what classes and stuff like MOF CW make it do more debuffs, or make the Instigator path on the GWF party wide buffer and add debuffer. Wont suggest the warlock since they are already getting/recieved buffs, for M13. The one class and path that I think would help drastically is the Devotion Paladin. Now before all the DCs get mad and attack me saying "Devotions would replace DCs". It honestly would not. Rework the devotion paladin so that it will "HEAL LESS, BUFF MORE." Do not make it of course on the level of a DC but close enough that people would be interested in Devotion Paladins. Now I know what some people are thinking right now because it came to my own mind. "Hey well now we won't have two DC problems, but we will have two OP problems!" Somewhat true except the fact that Devotion Paladin is NOT a tank. While the DCs are both Buffers and have no other category. OPs are two whole different classes in one. There is a fantastic thread that a lot of Devotion Paladins including myself have made suggestions over the last two years to change devotion to make it more viable to people. I am pretty sure it would greatly help the whole two DC problems. Because I saw in zone chat of P.E a person was looking for "(TWO)" DCs for a Grey Wolf Den, and of course they had to be 12k+ for it. It is getting out of hand and I am giving a possible solution to this problem.
If you have nothing nice to say than do not say it at all, and work together not against.
The devs are trying to do this. Look at what they are doing for the Templock. The buffs they are getting will improve the templock ability to be a buffer.
What the devs should do is simply make it so that you cannot have two of the same roles providing similar buffs. Two DC run would result in only 1 DC providing power sharing. Or if the group runs a OP Heal and a DC, again only one can provide power sharing.
The game is all 0 and 1 and with proper programming it can be done.
So what I am suggesting is look at other classes that could be improved for people to take into more dungeons. Ive had many thoughts on what classes and stuff like MOF CW make it do more debuffs
With debuffs getting nerfed in Mod12, you would need a MoF to debuff on par with pre-prepatch Tyrannical Curse to even be considered over a "win by doing nothing DO DC".
The devs are trying to do this. Look at what they are doing for the Templock. The buffs they are getting will improve the templock ability to be a buffer.
... And you'll notice the trend that the Mod13 Templock buffing ability is no match for a DO DC who slots TI, drops HG, and afks.
Instigator path on the GWF party wide buffer and add debuffer.
I like this idea, but realistically, you would have a higher chance of nerfing DPS GF when compared to the chance of the dev team making Instigator work.
Now I know what some people are thinking right now because it came to my own mind. "Hey well now we won't have two DC problems, but we will have two OP problems!"
It would never be a problem to begin with. Aura Gifts only stacks once and the only relevant Auras can be provided by a single Paladin regardless of spec.
Also worth noting: while Healadin is no replacement for DC in terms of buffing, many top BiS teams I'm seeing are swapping out their Tankadins for Healadins. This is due to most DPS GFs figuring out that they don't need a Tankadin to do everything for them, and Healadin Bane on DPS + Bane on boss causes bosses to melt disturbingly fast.
I am pretty sure it would greatly help the whole two DC problems. Because I saw in zone chat of P.E a person was looking for "(TWO)" DCs for a Grey Wolf Den, and of course they had to be 12k+ for it. It is getting out of hand and I am giving a possible solution to this problem.
You can do many things, but you can't change people.
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micky1p00Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 3,594Arc User
Instead of changing the core class and everything else around it, take a look at other classes that can help a party. Now I wont suggest "Add a Bard" because as cryptic likes to say is we must class balance! For the last two years, this has been told over and over. So what I am suggesting is look at other classes that could be improved for people to take into more dungeons. Ive had many thoughts on what classes and stuff like MOF CW make it do more debuffs, or make the Instigator path on the GWF party wide buffer and add debuffer. Wont suggest the warlock since they are already getting/recieved buffs, for M13. The one class and path that I think would help drastically is the Devotion Paladin. Now before all the DCs get mad and attack me saying "Devotions would replace DCs". It honestly would not. Rework the devotion paladin so that it will "HEAL LESS, BUFF MORE." Do not make it of course on the level of a DC but close enough that people would be interested in Devotion Paladins. Now I know what some people are thinking right now because it came to my own mind. "Hey well now we won't have two DC problems, but we will have two OP problems!" Somewhat true except the fact that Devotion Paladin is NOT a tank. While the DCs are both Buffers and have no other category. OPs are two whole different classes in one. There is a fantastic thread that a lot of Devotion Paladins including myself have made suggestions over the last two years to change devotion to make it more viable to people. I am pretty sure it would greatly help the whole two DC problems. Because I saw in zone chat of P.E a person was looking for "(TWO)" DCs for a Grey Wolf Den, and of course they had to be 12k+ for it. It is getting out of hand and I am giving a possible solution to this problem.
If you have nothing nice to say than do not say it at all, and work together not against.
The devs are trying to do this. Look at what they are doing for the Templock. The buffs they are getting will improve the templock ability to be a buffer.
What the devs should do is simply make it so that you cannot have two of the same roles providing similar buffs. Two DC run would result in only 1 DC providing power sharing. Or if the group runs a OP Heal and a DC, again only one can provide power sharing.
The game is all 0 and 1 and with proper programming it can be done.
You do know that only one DC provides the significant power share... the AC one. This is why DO can be almost gear-less in comparison while AC need 40k+ 50k+ power to compare to DO.. And all the rest of the rotation is not overlapping! As in DC buffs do not stack!. DCs use different encounters for that exact reason...
Sometimes I'm not sure where the forum suggestions/examples come from...
Personally, i think reworking the devotion pally to be more buffs than heals might just get rid of that one dps class completely imo
Huh? Which DPS class would that be? Hate to break it to you, but if you're referring to the burnadin build, iirc none of the proposed changes involved changing the healing mechanics of vow of enmity and bond of virtue. Other powers, yes but not those two. Nor did it contain changes to BG and HW boons so it wouldn't get rid of anything. If anything, it will cement its position as the only viable PvE healadin build.
Personally, i think reworking the devotion pally to be more buffs than heals might just get rid of that one dps class completely imo
Huh? Which DPS class would that be? Hate to break it to you, but if you're referring to the burnadin build, iirc none of the proposed changes involved changing the healing mechanics of vow of enmity and bond of virtue. Other powers, yes but not those two. Nor did it contain changes to BG and HW boons so it wouldn't get rid of anything. If anything, it will cement its position as the only viable PvE healadin build.
They probably mean that if you have additional significant buffer class / path, the meta will be not 1 dps + 4 support. But just 5 'support'. Hence the removal of that one dps...
> I own a tactitian GF myself, but having 4 loadouts I never would even think about doing dailies or content that way... I could even unslot my weapon on top.
>
> No I switch to my SM conqueror loadouts and melt content.
>
> Same as DC, i chose rightous not Faithfull. This argument is invalid running several loadouts since mod..10?
> Next time please read the full discussion and you will understand my references. I even quoted thing I was refering to lol.
I don't understand what you refer to?
You are upset about the facto that your tactitian deals hamster DPS, mine too.
The company gave every toon two loadout s for present. If you decide to waste one of them for a second tactitian loadout instead of taking a DPS spec, i think you made a mistake?
Personally, i think reworking the devotion pally to be more buffs than heals might just get rid of that one dps class completely imo
Huh? Which DPS class would that be? Hate to break it to you, but if you're referring to the burnadin build, iirc none of the proposed changes involved changing the healing mechanics of vow of enmity and bond of virtue. Other powers, yes but not those two. Nor did it contain changes to BG and HW boons so it wouldn't get rid of anything. If anything, it will cement its position as the only viable PvE healadin build.
They probably mean that if you have additional significant buffer class / path, the meta will be not 1 dps + 4 support. But just 5 'support'. Hence the removal of that one dps...
You know...after re-reading it, I think you're right. That's what I get for coming online without coffee and basic reading comprehension skills.
> I own a tactitian GF myself, but having 4 loadouts I never would even think about doing dailies or content that way... I could even unslot my weapon on top.
>
> No I switch to my SM conqueror loadouts and melt content.
>
> Same as DC, i chose rightous not Faithfull. This argument is invalid running several loadouts since mod..10?
> Next time please read the full discussion and you will understand my references. I even quoted thing I was refering to lol.
I don't understand what you refer to?
You are upset about the facto that your tactitian deals hamster DPS, mine too.
The company gave every toon two loadout s for present. If you decide to waste one of them for a second tactitian loadout instead of taking a DPS spec, i think you made a mistake?
Seriously mate. READ IT. READ IT. READ IT.
Pssssst: Here's a hint:
Played him pre laodouts
Pls dont be rude. Forum can be a crowded place for lots of opinion. If people dont see it, just quote out the phrase u want them to see. No point making ur post harder to read with insults or bad manners. Keep it civil.
Tbh, templocks might take that last dps spot too if u think about their party utility now that theyre getting some changes. Between the pop and dreadtheft debuff and the 18% damage buff to pop and new 20% more damage from warlocks curse to the party... and the movement speed from dark revelry i guess
> @wizardlvl80#5963 said: > > @wizardlvl80#5963 said: > > > I own a tactitian GF myself, but having 4 loadouts I never would even think about doing dailies or content that way... I could even unslot my weapon on top. > > > > > > No I switch to my SM conqueror loadouts and melt content. > > > > > > Same as DC, i chose rightous not Faithfull. This argument is invalid running several loadouts since mod..10? > > > > > > @schietindebux > > > > > > Next time please read the full discussion and you will understand my references. I even quoted thing I was refering to lol. > > > > I don't understand what you refer to? > > You are upset about the facto that your tactitian deals hamster DPS, mine too. > > The company gave every toon two loadout s for present. If you decide to waste one of them for a second tactitian loadout instead of taking a DPS spec, i think you made a mistake? > > Seriously mate. READ IT. READ IT. READ IT. > > Pssssst: Here's a hint: > > Played him pre laodouts
Now i see what you talk about. Your tactitian GF dealt hamster DPS 4 mods ago preloadouts. Why is this a valid argument concerning the actual dominance of 2 tanks and 2 DC inside every dungeon aboveT2 on PC? My warlock dealt hamster broken damage 5 to 6 mods ago, now he don't.
It was my answer to statement "if your class would be awful, you wouldn't be enjoying it and playing it". Or something similliar to this. You noticed one sentence and made a whole new (and unfortunately pointless) conversation/dillema out of it. Let's just forgive and forget, cause this makes now sense.
My point was literally "I completed EE, IWD, SKT, SOMI and RD where there was no loadouts around so I know what pain is (sliding my sunglasses on my nose)".
And it was 1 mod ago mate. Loadouts were introduced with 11.5.
I acutally don't find my posts rude. I find it more rude when someone's attacking you without reading your posts. But hey. No problem, explanation included.
Yes my intend is to point at current state of the game. And it is centered arround buffruns in mod 12b. Actual content is build arround those buffer groups so evetything beside those groups suck. If you followed actual chat you know what's up in 30 seconds. They tried to handle debuffs and powershare to some degree but open buffs stack with each other to silly ammounts. We still are at a point where content is ruled and dominated by buffs and classes that spend them or not.
It's not whole mod that's build around it. I really think that people see this game as only ToNG now. Other dungeons are easily doable with oldschool party composition of 3x dps 2x support.
And let me say it out loud - ToNG was suppose to be an endgame dungeon. It's not for everyone. It's for endgame players. And let me say it again - every class can do it. If you're not performing well in ToNG then consider you're maybe not enough end game-ish for now and focus on making your toon better. Why it's so hard for people to admit they can't do something yet? I remember when FBI was introduced. I ran it once back then and haven't step my foot in there for a long, long time. Cause I considered myself to be too weak for it. I'm not one of those guys who seek party members with 4-5k IL higher to carry me trough hard dungeon. If it's not for me, then what's the fun in running it?
ToNG is endgame, ToNG is challenge. If you want to complete this challenge with less effort - you make a speedrun group with 3/4 buffs and 1/2 dps where secondary dps is also buffing (like SW, CW mof or trapper HR).
If someone is making a party of 4 buffers and 1 dps to run CN - well, they're just stupid. It's their fault, not games fault.
By the way, endgame focusing on support is the same about every single game. Endgame shouldn't be about "I think about myself" but "I think about my party". That's why people are running with debuff companions instead of Archons - they want better team performance instead of numbers they produce. Endgame is not about "me", it's about "us". Where one fails, all fail. And if you ask me - that's a really good idea and a proper design. I like it, and that's how every multiplayer game shold be.
> @wizardlvl80#5963 said: > I disagree. > > It's not whole mod that's build around it. I really think that people see this game as only ToNG now. Other dungeons are easily doable with oldschool party composition of 3x dps 2x support. > > And let me say it out loud - ToNG was suppose to be an endgame dungeon. It's not for everyone. It's for endgame players. And let me say it again - every class can do it. If you're not performing well in ToNG then consider you're maybe not enough end game-ish for now and focus on making your toon better. Why it's so hard for people to admit they can't do something yet? I remember when FBI was introduced. I ran it once back then and haven't step my foot in there for a long, long time. Cause I considered myself to be too weak for it. I'm not one of those guys who seek party members with 4-5k IL higher to carry me trough hard dungeon. If it's not for me, then what's the fun in running it? > > ToNG is endgame, ToNG is challenge. If you want to complete this challenge with less effort - you make a speedrun group with 3/4 buffs and 1/2 dps where secondary dps is also buffing (like SW, CW mof or trapper HR). > > If someone is making a party of 4 buffers and 1 dps to run CN - well, they're just stupid. It's their fault, not games fault. > > By the way, endgame focusing on support is the same about every single game. Endgame shouldn't be about "I think about myself" but "I think about my party". That's why people are running with debuff companions instead of Archons - they want better team performance instead of numbers they produce. Endgame is not about "me", it's about "us". Where one fails, all fail. And if you ask me - that's a really good idea and a proper design. I like it, and that's how every multiplayer game shold be.
Disagree, atm 100% demand for OP 2x DC if possible GF on top even for T2. No clue when you logged in last time? But that's what makes things near impossible for some classes/player. I do pretty well with all my toons,thx no need to worry about.
But to prove you wrong i advise you to pick a GF tank a Devotion OP, and 3 DPS of your choice to feel the actual disbalance. Afterwards pick an OP and 2DC a DPS GF and any other class. Where do you play , plattform? And how long does your average tong runs take, that you are one of the very few that did not recognize the all over dominance of few classes? Tong definitely is not enjoyable with every setup, except you enjoy to fail or run 60 min + every time. On top the only viable option to gear up and gain needed marks. The consequence is that near everyone swapped towards those classes to at least gear up and earn those ultimates.
A game that favours 4x buffer groups over everything else by this margin? Good idea? How things should be? ...not in my world
> You do know that only one DC provides the significant power share... the AC one. This is why DO can be almost gear-less in comparison while AC need 40k+ 50k+ power to compare to DO.. > And all the rest of the rotation is not overlapping! As in DC buffs do not stack!. DCs use different encounters for that exact reason... > > Sometimes I'm not sure where the forum suggestions/examples come from...
But it should be possible to cap actual multiplier by deminishing it's value, no clue how to manage this eaxactly tbh. Same they did towards debuffs and they also tried to reduce powersharing. This would lead to a severe downgrade of groupdamage but fix some disbalance issues and pverbuffs (GF, DO, BtS) same as prevent community to pick only few classes to maximise DPS and run 4 buffer groups. Content should be readjusted that way by sure. DC will stay best choice and should chose between max dps (DO) or max powershare/CC immunity, but you gonna pick 2-3 DPS instead and stop simply stacking multiplier buffs.
I'm an active PC player and happy owner of HR and GF Tactician.
My HR is 15.1k and GF is 14.7k. I never run a GF dps build, cause I love to be support for my party (don't even have dps gear on GF). Even though I rek the hamster out of the mobs and bosses in tong with my combat HR, I prefer to go in there as a supportive trapper.
I ran this dungeon with 1x OP devotion 1x DC 1x GF (me) and SW-TR combo and we were successful cause everyone knew their job. This was a 33 minutes run.
This is endgame. Endgame is about how good you are. Not about how good your class is. And like I said - it's about "us" not about "me" in party.
You want to run easy and enjoyable dungeons? Don't run Tong. I see you are frustrated, maybe you don't like to be part of the team? Or maybe you should build your toon in more suitable for endgame manner? Debuff companion, artis and stuff.
My average tong run is 40 minutes, cause I often take people who are not so experienced with it. My fastest tong run was 23mins with SW as only dps (yes - THE SW).
And you're wrong. This game doesn't favour 4 buffers in endgame. It favours 5 buffers in endgame, cause dps also needs to be built to suit in the team and make the most of the buffs he and team can provide. So it's a 5 buffer teamplay, not 4.
Don't be selfish. If all you want to do is swing sword and do damage, then ToNG it's not for you.
Responding to someone idea some posts ago: Rainbow parties shall be encouraged and NOT forced. For example give buff for every class that doesn't stack. Forcing people to go 3xdps1xtank1xhealer is not the solution for this.
And as someone said: it's more Tongish case because everything in T1/T2 and even T3 like fbi/msp can be done in decent time with any combination of class. I've been running 4xTrs1DC T2s or doing T3s in three people with totally random class that we play (just for fun) and we even got better time than sometimes with meta.. . In general at some point everyone are so overpowered that T1/T2 can be soloed by everyone so it shouldn't be topic for discussion here (it doesn't prove anything). People are still looking for meta teams for T1/T2 like @schietindebux saidbut it's just stupid because they forget to include lfm time in beat time..what's the point of 10-15 min run when you spend extra 20 mins lfm at best. I just lf4m, take any, do the thing and I'm done. It's not like T1/T2 prove any challenge for higher IL chars right now.
And in Tong I did run it with every combination also and every combination was able to finish it in about 30-35 mins (so in recommended by game time..). Granted people had the knowledge about their classes etc. But only with meta teams it could be done in <20 mins. Still the meta covered like 2xDC, OP, 2 any class for me so it's still good. Of course I had those 60 min+ runs but I can't blame the class but only the players who I were with (or me itself if I had bad day too:P).
I believe currently it's more balanced than ever..it's not balanced of course but compared to past it's quite good. It's impossible to achieve complete balance so any post "nerf 30% here give 30% here" is miss for me.
And despise what most are saying, GWFs are not best dps class in current meta. Or it's for me because I rarely see quick run with them, it's easier to see TR/HR/CW doing 20 mins runs than GWF these days (I don't have luck with GFs dps so I can't comment on this).
It's not whole mod that's build around it. I really think that people see this game as only ToNG now. Other dungeons are easily doable with oldschool party composition of 3x dps 2x support.
And let me say it out loud - ToNG was suppose to be an endgame dungeon. It's not for everyone. It's for endgame players. And let me say it again - every class can do it. If you're not performing well in ToNG then consider you're maybe not enough end game-ish for now and focus on making your toon better. Why it's so hard for people to admit they can't do something yet? I remember when FBI was introduced. I ran it once back then and haven't step my foot in there for a long, long time. Cause I considered myself to be too weak for it. I'm not one of those guys who seek party members with 4-5k IL higher to carry me trough hard dungeon. If it's not for me, then what's the fun in running it?
ToNG is endgame, ToNG is challenge. If you want to complete this challenge with less effort - you make a speedrun group with 3/4 buffs and 1/2 dps where secondary dps is also buffing (like SW, CW mof or trapper HR).
If someone is making a party of 4 buffers and 1 dps to run CN - well, they're just stupid. It's their fault, not games fault.
By the way, endgame focusing on support is the same about every single game. Endgame shouldn't be about "I think about myself" but "I think about my party". That's why people are running with debuff companions instead of Archons - they want better team performance instead of numbers they produce. Endgame is not about "me", it's about "us". Where one fails, all fail. And if you ask me - that's a really good idea and a proper design. I like it, and that's how every multiplayer game shold be.
If a 15k archer HR cant get into Tong, i dont know what is the problem if its not class balance. Not enough if level? i doubt it when people are picking 14k HR trapper and combat over 15 ro 16k archer. U can say Tong is not for archer, like fbi we have to wait for another mod or 2 so that the community would be less picky. Or maybe it still wont happen like msp, either nobody is playing it or people still dont want archer. So are u saying archer only deserve old content? Whats the point for playing and upgrading my char then? Its not about trying to be 1st pick to enter Tong. Its about the equal chance to enter Tong. I m sure there are other weaker class that are at the same state as archer. Since ur playing a GF and HR trapper, u will never know the story behind those weaker class. U cant rule out that the world doesnt have murder just because u are living in an area that dont have it. U can also say, join a guild or make ur own party but still it wont solve the fact that those class are underperform.
So what if running the speedrun group u mention (3/4 buffs and 1/2 dps where secondary dps is also buffing (like SW, CW mof or trapper HR)) has almost the same performance with 1 tank 1 healer & 3 dps? Wouldnt it open to more class to join? Wouldnt it be easier to look to dc since the pool has increased? Isnt its easier for u to start a group in PE? Because the difference between the performance of this 2 type of setup is so huge that one of them could mow down endgame pretty quick and easy while the other is slow and has a very high chance of failing. Everyone is now making their own speed run private que leaving public que empty. At least mod 10 when endgame is castle never, public que is still going and the game is healthy.
From other game i played in the past, dragon nest for example, i dont see it revolve around cleric that much. Infact dps and support are equally needed. I mean its pretty understood that a party need a tank to hold aggro and tank the damage, a healer to keep them alive and dps to sweep out the mob fast. In this game, its more like we need healer & tank to speed up the dungeon than more dps. If u trying to say its d&d, then do something like ddo, anyone can be a 2handed greatsword cleric, a tanking warlock or monk archer.
Now everything is a mess, the dungeon, the class and role. And also dont tell me its impossible to balance them. U dont have to make everything to be exactly the same like sharp says. U just need to make them all viable that doesnt outshine each other too much. A slight performance difference is ok as long as it doesnt double or triple one another. Best is to keep performance difference under 30% or 50%. We dont get paid to do balancing. Its the developer's job and not us. So i m not going to crack my brain, doing rocket science math to tweek the correct number. If they still do bad balancing by overbuff or overnerf something like what they did in the past, oh well, things are just gonna swing from one point to the other and they are just wasting resourses. But if they does well, all those resources are worth spend.
You can't expect to every path in every class to be equally viable. HR is in quite good spot anyway (with HR trapper, HR combat SW/PF variations). Of course it would be nice to see Archery more viable but it's not bad spot at all. I could also run virtuous DC or even Faithful and I would had the same problems getting in Tong runs (or OP Bulwark and so on). And you're saying "class" like Hr Trapper class but it's the same class..just different build. What you should do is sign petition for rework on HR Archery (but it's honestly far away in the queue of needed reworks).
Wait a mod or two and you will see plenty public queues for Tong. I've done some so far too. And for now run it with your friends..remember there is not point of 20 min runs when you're looking for an hour for full team and you could do 30-40 min in meantime with what you have already. And it's end game content so it's understable that 15-16k player have better performance there than 12k ones.
I don't see how it's possible to make everyone viable the same..the sheer amount of work is astonishing. Rainbow buff is easy and very good solution to start with. Just look how long it takes for them to rework few powers in one class for devs already. And show me DPS class who is doing double or triple of other dps class (and I mean class..not path of class. Like my DC DO is doing 10x of DC AC dps easily because of build etc) right now.
Comments
IMO this game needs a Controller role which should include not only CC effects but be the primary role for buffing the group and debuffing enemies. Tanks and Healers should also be able to buff but not to the same level.
I played other games where Controllers had defined roles as well as Tanks and Healers and only a Controller could do CC effectively against multiple targets and do it at a safe range. The tanks could only CC in melee range and most of their CC were to knockdown the enemies. This other game bosses could be CC but it requires the CC stat to be fairly high but it was possible. The other thing is the Controller role was the lone group buffer and debuffer for content. Also, if you ran with two controllers, the buff and debuff would not stack, this ensured that there was no stacking of a specific role to improve run time.
It would be nice to see a controller role in NW but with how NW is currently there is no major need for a CC role.
How would you complete a TONG in a 1-1-3 format. When tank would have to be OP and healer would have to be AC. Who wins in that solution? GF or DOs?
What rush dictates the need for a temporary solution?
And as I've mentioned many many times, why isn't reward balancing between random and private not an option even if temporary?
Except it won't, in TONG most GFs cannot handle the tanking role and DO can not handle the final boss because the AA cc immunity is almost required. Would be essential in a low dps group.
Tanks ARE a subset of controllers. You can freeze someone, or you can force someone to bash only you. That is CC.
And until aggro control immune mobs are introduced, tanks are the superior controllers (and the only, in practice) in the game.
Not everyone is end game...
The freed up tank and Dc will be available to run other content.
“There are changes that can be made that don’t require coding...” - TriNitY
"No amount of coding will change human behavior" - TriNitY
Ongoing Issue: Legitmate Players Banned for Botting (Console) and the Future for "Dedicated" Players
Suggestions: (Implemented) \/\/ Rearrange Character on character Select Screen
Next time please read the full discussion and you will understand my references. I even quoted thing I was refering to lol.
> I own a tactitian GF myself, but having 4 loadouts I never would even think about doing dailies or content that way... I could even unslot my weapon on top.
>
> No I switch to my SM conqueror loadouts and melt content.
>
> Same as DC, i chose rightous not Faithfull. This argument is invalid running several loadouts since mod..10?
>
> @schietindebux
>
> Next time please read the full discussion and you will understand my references. I even quoted thing I was refering to lol.
I don't understand what you refer to?
You are upset about the facto that your tactitian deals hamster DPS, mine too.
The company gave every toon two loadout s for present. If you decide to waste one of them for a second tactitian loadout instead of taking a DPS spec, i think you made a mistake?
As others pointed out it is not just TONG where 2 DCs are being called out for runs. FBI, MSPC, eToS, VT, etc...I see call out for various content where groups like running with 2 DC for faster runs, especially if the other 3 players are DPS.
I agree that a temp fix of removing private q would be anything but temporary. That is why I'm going to state this again, this game needs a revamp. How it is done I will leave to the devs. But it really needs one.
What the devs should do is simply make it so that you cannot have two of the same roles providing similar buffs. Two DC run would result in only 1 DC providing power sharing. Or if the group runs a OP Heal and a DC, again only one can provide power sharing.
The game is all 0 and 1 and with proper programming it can be done.
Aura Gifts only stacks once and the only relevant Auras can be provided by a single Paladin regardless of spec.
Also worth noting: while Healadin is no replacement for DC in terms of buffing, many top BiS teams I'm seeing are swapping out their Tankadins for Healadins. This is due to most DPS GFs figuring out that they don't need a Tankadin to do everything for them, and Healadin Bane on DPS + Bane on boss causes bosses to melt disturbingly fast. You can do many things, but you can't change people.
And all the rest of the rotation is not overlapping! As in DC buffs do not stack!. DCs use different encounters for that exact reason...
Sometimes I'm not sure where the forum suggestions/examples come from...
House Miliskeera in exile (NW)
Sereska Miliskeera, Lvl 70 OP - Devotion (Just.)/Protection (Just.)
Shizlee Miliskeera, Lvl 70 DC - Divine Oracle (Right.)/Anoited Champion (Faith.)
Finithey Miliskeera, Lvl 70 HR - Stormwarden (Combat)/Pathfinder (Trapper)
Maya Sik-Miliskeera, Lvl 70 CW - Spellstorm
Irae Sik-Miliskeera, Lvl 70 TR - Master Inflitrator
Member - Houseclan t'Charvon (STO)
Shiarrael e'Tal'Aura t'Charvon, LvL 60, Rom Sci
S'aana ir'Virinat t'Charvon, Lvl 60, Rom Eng
T'Lyra, LvL 60, Fed, Vul Sci
Ta'el, Lvl 60, Rom Tac
Pssssst: Here's a hint:
House Miliskeera in exile (NW)
Sereska Miliskeera, Lvl 70 OP - Devotion (Just.)/Protection (Just.)
Shizlee Miliskeera, Lvl 70 DC - Divine Oracle (Right.)/Anoited Champion (Faith.)
Finithey Miliskeera, Lvl 70 HR - Stormwarden (Combat)/Pathfinder (Trapper)
Maya Sik-Miliskeera, Lvl 70 CW - Spellstorm
Irae Sik-Miliskeera, Lvl 70 TR - Master Inflitrator
Member - Houseclan t'Charvon (STO)
Shiarrael e'Tal'Aura t'Charvon, LvL 60, Rom Sci
S'aana ir'Virinat t'Charvon, Lvl 60, Rom Eng
T'Lyra, LvL 60, Fed, Vul Sci
Ta'el, Lvl 60, Rom Tac
> > @wizardlvl80#5963 said:
>
> > I own a tactitian GF myself, but having 4 loadouts I never would even think about doing dailies or content that way... I could even unslot my weapon on top.
>
> >
>
> > No I switch to my SM conqueror loadouts and melt content.
>
> >
>
> > Same as DC, i chose rightous not Faithfull. This argument is invalid running several loadouts since mod..10?
>
> >
>
> > @schietindebux
>
> >
>
> > Next time please read the full discussion and you will understand my references. I even quoted thing I was refering to lol.
>
>
>
> I don't understand what you refer to?
>
> You are upset about the facto that your tactitian deals hamster DPS, mine too.
>
> The company gave every toon two loadout s for present. If you decide to waste one of them for a second tactitian loadout instead of taking a DPS spec, i think you made a mistake?
>
> Seriously mate. READ IT. READ IT. READ IT.
>
> Pssssst: Here's a hint:
>
> Played him pre laodouts
Now i see what you talk about. Your tactitian GF dealt hamster DPS 4 mods ago preloadouts. Why is this a valid argument concerning the actual dominance of 2 tanks and 2 DC inside every dungeon aboveT2 on PC?
My warlock dealt hamster broken damage 5 to 6 mods ago, now he don't.
It was my answer to statement "if your class would be awful, you wouldn't be enjoying it and playing it". Or something similliar to this. You noticed one sentence and made a whole new (and unfortunately pointless) conversation/dillema out of it. Let's just forgive and forget, cause this makes now sense.
My point was literally "I completed EE, IWD, SKT, SOMI and RD where there was no loadouts around so I know what pain is (sliding my sunglasses on my nose)".
And it was 1 mod ago mate. Loadouts were introduced with 11.5.
@kangkeok
I acutally don't find my posts rude. I find it more rude when someone's attacking you without reading your posts. But hey. No problem, explanation included.
They tried to handle debuffs and powershare to some degree but open buffs stack with each other to silly ammounts.
We still are at a point where content is ruled and dominated by buffs and classes that spend them or not.
It's not whole mod that's build around it. I really think that people see this game as only ToNG now. Other dungeons are easily doable with oldschool party composition of 3x dps 2x support.
And let me say it out loud - ToNG was suppose to be an endgame dungeon. It's not for everyone. It's for endgame players. And let me say it again - every class can do it. If you're not performing well in ToNG then consider you're maybe not enough end game-ish for now and focus on making your toon better. Why it's so hard for people to admit they can't do something yet? I remember when FBI was introduced. I ran it once back then and haven't step my foot in there for a long, long time. Cause I considered myself to be too weak for it. I'm not one of those guys who seek party members with 4-5k IL higher to carry me trough hard dungeon. If it's not for me, then what's the fun in running it?
ToNG is endgame, ToNG is challenge. If you want to complete this challenge with less effort - you make a speedrun group with 3/4 buffs and 1/2 dps where secondary dps is also buffing (like SW, CW mof or trapper HR).
If someone is making a party of 4 buffers and 1 dps to run CN - well, they're just stupid. It's their fault, not games fault.
By the way, endgame focusing on support is the same about every single game. Endgame shouldn't be about "I think about myself" but "I think about my party". That's why people are running with debuff companions instead of Archons - they want better team performance instead of numbers they produce. Endgame is not about "me", it's about "us". Where one fails, all fail. And if you ask me - that's a really good idea and a proper design. I like it, and that's how every multiplayer game shold be.
> I disagree.
>
> It's not whole mod that's build around it. I really think that people see this game as only ToNG now. Other dungeons are easily doable with oldschool party composition of 3x dps 2x support.
>
> And let me say it out loud - ToNG was suppose to be an endgame dungeon. It's not for everyone. It's for endgame players. And let me say it again - every class can do it. If you're not performing well in ToNG then consider you're maybe not enough end game-ish for now and focus on making your toon better. Why it's so hard for people to admit they can't do something yet? I remember when FBI was introduced. I ran it once back then and haven't step my foot in there for a long, long time. Cause I considered myself to be too weak for it. I'm not one of those guys who seek party members with 4-5k IL higher to carry me trough hard dungeon. If it's not for me, then what's the fun in running it?
>
> ToNG is endgame, ToNG is challenge. If you want to complete this challenge with less effort - you make a speedrun group with 3/4 buffs and 1/2 dps where secondary dps is also buffing (like SW, CW mof or trapper HR).
>
> If someone is making a party of 4 buffers and 1 dps to run CN - well, they're just stupid. It's their fault, not games fault.
>
> By the way, endgame focusing on support is the same about every single game. Endgame shouldn't be about "I think about myself" but "I think about my party". That's why people are running with debuff companions instead of Archons - they want better team performance instead of numbers they produce. Endgame is not about "me", it's about "us". Where one fails, all fail. And if you ask me - that's a really good idea and a proper design. I like it, and that's how every multiplayer game shold be.
Disagree, atm 100% demand for OP 2x DC if possible GF on top even for T2. No clue when you logged in last time?
But that's what makes things near impossible for some classes/player.
I do pretty well with all my toons,thx no need to worry about.
But to prove you wrong i advise you to pick a GF tank a Devotion OP, and 3 DPS of your choice to feel the actual disbalance. Afterwards pick an OP and 2DC a DPS GF and any other class.
Where do you play , plattform? And how long does your average tong runs take, that you are one of the very few that did not recognize the all over dominance of few classes?
Tong definitely is not enjoyable with every setup, except you enjoy to fail or run 60 min + every time. On top the only viable option to gear up and gain needed marks.
The consequence is that near everyone swapped towards those classes to at least gear up and earn those ultimates.
A game that favours 4x buffer groups over everything else by this margin? Good idea? How things should be?
...not in my world
> And all the rest of the rotation is not overlapping! As in DC buffs do not stack!. DCs use different encounters for that exact reason...
>
> Sometimes I'm not sure where the forum suggestions/examples come from...
But it should be possible to cap actual multiplier by deminishing it's value, no clue how to manage this eaxactly tbh.
Same they did towards debuffs and they also tried to reduce powersharing.
This would lead to a severe downgrade of groupdamage but fix some disbalance issues and pverbuffs (GF, DO, BtS) same as prevent community to pick only few classes to maximise DPS and run 4 buffer groups.
Content should be readjusted that way by sure.
DC will stay best choice and should chose between max dps (DO) or max powershare/CC immunity, but you gonna pick 2-3 DPS instead and stop simply stacking multiplier buffs.
My HR is 15.1k and GF is 14.7k. I never run a GF dps build, cause I love to be support for my party (don't even have dps gear on GF). Even though I rek the hamster out of the mobs and bosses in tong with my combat HR, I prefer to go in there as a supportive trapper.
I ran this dungeon with 1x OP devotion 1x DC 1x GF (me) and SW-TR combo and we were successful cause everyone knew their job. This was a 33 minutes run.
This is endgame. Endgame is about how good you are. Not about how good your class is. And like I said - it's about "us" not about "me" in party.
You want to run easy and enjoyable dungeons? Don't run Tong. I see you are frustrated, maybe you don't like to be part of the team? Or maybe you should build your toon in more suitable for endgame manner? Debuff companion, artis and stuff.
My average tong run is 40 minutes, cause I often take people who are not so experienced with it. My fastest tong run was 23mins with SW as only dps (yes - THE SW).
And you're wrong. This game doesn't favour 4 buffers in endgame. It favours 5 buffers in endgame, cause dps also needs to be built to suit in the team and make the most of the buffs he and team can provide. So it's a 5 buffer teamplay, not 4.
Don't be selfish. If all you want to do is swing sword and do damage, then ToNG it's not for you.
Rainbow parties shall be encouraged and NOT forced. For example give buff for every class that doesn't stack. Forcing people to go 3xdps1xtank1xhealer is not the solution for this.
And as someone said: it's more Tongish case because everything in T1/T2 and even T3 like fbi/msp can be done in decent time with any combination of class. I've been running 4xTrs1DC T2s or doing T3s in three people with totally random class that we play (just for fun) and we even got better time than sometimes with meta.. . In general at some point everyone are so overpowered that T1/T2 can be soloed by everyone so it shouldn't be topic for discussion here (it doesn't prove anything). People are still looking for meta teams for T1/T2 like @schietindebux saidbut it's just stupid because they forget to include lfm time in beat time..what's the point of 10-15 min run when you spend extra 20 mins lfm at best. I just lf4m, take any, do the thing and I'm done. It's not like T1/T2 prove any challenge for higher IL chars right now.
And in Tong I did run it with every combination also and every combination was able to finish it in about 30-35 mins (so in recommended by game time..). Granted people had the knowledge about their classes etc. But only with meta teams it could be done in <20 mins. Still the meta covered like 2xDC, OP, 2 any class for me so it's still good. Of course I had those 60 min+ runs but I can't blame the class but only the players who I were with (or me itself if I had bad day too:P).
I believe currently it's more balanced than ever..it's not balanced of course but compared to past it's quite good. It's impossible to achieve complete balance so any post "nerf 30% here give 30% here" is miss for me.
And despise what most are saying, GWFs are not best dps class in current meta. Or it's for me because I rarely see quick run with them, it's easier to see TR/HR/CW doing 20 mins runs than GWF these days (I don't have luck with GFs dps so I can't comment on this).
So what if running the speedrun group u mention (3/4 buffs and 1/2 dps where secondary dps is also buffing (like SW, CW mof or trapper HR)) has almost the same performance with 1 tank 1 healer & 3 dps? Wouldnt it open to more class to join? Wouldnt it be easier to look to dc since the pool has increased? Isnt its easier for u to start a group in PE? Because the difference between the performance of this 2 type of setup is so huge that one of them could mow down endgame pretty quick and easy while the other is slow and has a very high chance of failing. Everyone is now making their own speed run private que leaving public que empty. At least mod 10 when endgame is castle never, public que is still going and the game is healthy.
From other game i played in the past, dragon nest for example, i dont see it revolve around cleric that much. Infact dps and support are equally needed. I mean its pretty understood that a party need a tank to hold aggro and tank the damage, a healer to keep them alive and dps to sweep out the mob fast. In this game, its more like we need healer & tank to speed up the dungeon than more dps. If u trying to say its d&d, then do something like ddo, anyone can be a 2handed greatsword cleric, a tanking warlock or monk archer.
Now everything is a mess, the dungeon, the class and role. And also dont tell me its impossible to balance them. U dont have to make everything to be exactly the same like sharp says. U just need to make them all viable that doesnt outshine each other too much. A slight performance difference is ok as long as it doesnt double or triple one another. Best is to keep performance difference under 30% or 50%. We dont get paid to do balancing. Its the developer's job and not us. So i m not going to crack my brain, doing rocket science math to tweek the correct number. If they still do bad balancing by overbuff or overnerf something like what they did in the past, oh well, things are just gonna swing from one point to the other and they are just wasting resourses. But if they does well, all those resources are worth spend.
You can't expect to every path in every class to be equally viable. HR is in quite good spot anyway (with HR trapper, HR combat SW/PF variations). Of course it would be nice to see Archery more viable but it's not bad spot at all. I could also run virtuous DC or even Faithful and I would had the same problems getting in Tong runs (or OP Bulwark and so on). And you're saying "class" like Hr Trapper class but it's the same class..just different build. What you should do is sign petition for rework on HR Archery (but it's honestly far away in the queue of needed reworks).
Wait a mod or two and you will see plenty public queues for Tong. I've done some so far too. And for now run it with your friends..remember there is not point of 20 min runs when you're looking for an hour for full team and you could do 30-40 min in meantime with what you have already. And it's end game content so it's understable that 15-16k player have better performance there than 12k ones.
I don't see how it's possible to make everyone viable the same..the sheer amount of work is astonishing. Rainbow buff is easy and very good solution to start with. Just look how long it takes for them to rework few powers in one class for devs already. And show me DPS class who is doing double or triple of other dps class (and I mean class..not path of class. Like my DC DO is doing 10x of DC AC dps easily because of build etc) right now.