If you play the archery feat path it's your fault you're underperforming. Switch to trapper and then play archery style. I would pick literally any class with 12k item lvl instead of you just because you can't accept that archery path doesn't work well now and is problematic. You want to play archery? Fine - pick trapper path and focus on buffing-hitting with range powers. No? Then run Malabog and have fun with it, just don't blame others.
You can't blame people not wanting you if you don't want to be there for the people. You're acting stubborn and selfish, thinking "I want to play the thing that doesn't work now and you guys are jerks, cause you don't want to take useless guy with themselves to a dungeon which requires great performance from all 5 members".
Dude, this is insane. You are yet playing archer when it's not even a secret that the path doesn't work? And blaming others? Who's fault is that?
By the way - who's problem is you can't find que for ToNG? Have you tried to make your own one? You're blaming everything and everyone for you characters' failure but the problem is you. It's like playing GWF as a tank role - sure, you CAN do it. But go be a GWF tank somwhere else, not in my ToNG party. Same with archery path - you wan't to play something that's clearly broken? Awesome, but I don't want to play ToNG with you since you're not able to accept that my party will need you to perform, not to be cool with yourself. We can run CN together, heck, even FBI where I can basically carry this myself with tank and DC. But not there - not in ToNG, this one's about the team.
It's funny, cause now I see that all these people moaning for balance are the one's who aren't capable of starting their own queue and the one's wanting to have it all at no cost.
Oh, @kangkeok you said I will never know a story behind weaker class. It's funny cause we play the same class and I'm actually very successful at it and you're on the other hand seem not. If we both play Hunter Ranger and the only difference between our characters is the guy who controls it, then please tell me, where do you think the problem is?
And let me repeat - I played all campaigns including mod11 without loadouts with Tactician GF and don't tell me about weaker class underperforming in this game.
@etelgrin temptation is getting a buff in 13 for warlock curse to work for party. Also, if the gf is in ur pillar of power and using knights challenge, i dont think ur gonna wanna stand there. Just my thought tho tbh, dont know yet unless we can test it on preview when the changes come out
Just a few comments. I hate to say it, but if you think, that switching the meta from OP/GF/2xDC/DPS to a rainbow group, would 'free up' tanks and healers for other content, you are plain wrong.
There was always a shortage of DCs/tanks, bc it was more difficult to level them and do campaigns. As it is, it would be quite easy, if ppl would know how to play for max speed, but most ppl dont.
You can either adapt to changes or just complain. Many players adapted and did build a GF, OP or DC alt. So changing the meta would not make me or many others play their DC/GF, so you can play with your dps, but play more with their own main again.
I think, that 90% of the ppl who ask for a meta group dont know, why this group is meta bc they dont understand the mechanics of other classes and 50% dont even understand their own class. I had countless discussions with AC DCs, who run with 40k power and stack recovery, who think, that righteous is not viable for AC DCs. Tactican GFs, who think, that using ITF is all they have to do etc.
The above mentioned combination is just good, if the OP, dps and the AC DC are well geared and all know how to play, really good with a well geared and played conqueror GF. Otherwise a well geared and played alternative is just as viable.
Keep in mind, that the group combination does just matter in TONG and to some extend in MSP and FBI. You can clear every other dungeon with two decent players in good time.
I am quite sure, that a change in class balance will not change the fact, that there is a meta. There will always be a meta and the other players will feel left out
Sure a meta will allways be, but a 2x tank 2x DC is hard to take and near 99% of the playerbase ingame are exactly asking for it. If your guild is big enough and your fl is more than just a "i want your DC exclusively alliance" you are lucky. But the reality looks the other way. The moment i hop in my warlock I get zero requests, the moment i switch towards my DC tons of requests. That's what everyone experiences normally. I run tong with DC GF SW and also beside the meta, but that does not change the fact that double DC+OP is far beyond everything other class-combos are capable to do. You end up with double DC or OP DC GF most time, and sure it's also a matter of petsonal skill and setup. But the average Party will allways be a mix of better vor worse player.
@wizardlvl80#5963 i allways look for group performance, wich forces me to run buffer companions and adept encounter/feature to use, and my runs do not last hours, but the average build you draw about successfull rainbowparties smooth runs at any occasion only tells me one thing. You run a favoured class with premades and never pug.
Balance is needed , but it's not my job. I do know pretty well how to fix it with pretty small changes though.
You can't expect to every path in every class to be equally viable. HR is in quite good spot anyway (with HR trapper, HR combat SW/PF variations). Of course it would be nice to see Archery more viable but it's not bad spot at all. I could also run virtuous DC or even Faithful and I would had the same problems getting in Tong runs (or OP Bulwark and so on). And you're saying "class" like Hr Trapper class but it's the same class..just different build. What you should do is sign petition for rework on HR Archery (but it's honestly far away in the queue of needed reworks).
In my meaning of class balance does include class path.
Wait a mod or two and you will see plenty public queues for Tong. I've done some so far too. And for now run it with your friends..remember there is not point of 20 min runs when you're looking for an hour for full team and you could do 30-40 min in meantime with what you have already. And it's end game content so it's understable that 15-16k player have better performance there than 12k ones.
I already waited that far and done what u have said. I m not complaining for it to happen now but just pointing out where it goes wrong and hopefully developer knows it.
I don't see how it's possible to make everyone viable the same..the sheer amount of work is astonishing. Rainbow buff is easy and very good solution to start with. Just look how long it takes for them to rework few powers in one class for devs already. And show me DPS class who is doing double or triple of other dps class (and I mean class..not path of class. Like my DC DO is doing 10x of DC AC dps easily because of build etc) right now.
It might cost alots of resources but a well plan and made balance will save them any future resource in long term. Be it rainbow buff or power rework, i dont care much as long as people gets to play equally disregard of class and path. But i still think power rework is a more proper solution. But yea, it takes so long for them to rework few power & also a risk of getting the job badly done ( power getting over nerf/buff) that people lost confident and rather not let the developer balance them. Rainbow buff for me is like a "no choice" solution. Even so the real problem is still there.
If you play the archery feat path it's your fault you're underperforming. Switch to trapper and then play archery style. I would pick literally any class with 12k item lvl instead of you just because you can't accept that archery path doesn't work well now and is problematic. You want to play archery? Fine - pick trapper path and focus on buffing-hitting with range powers. No? Then run Malabog and have fun with it, just don't blame others.
You can't blame people not wanting you if you don't want to be there for the people. You're acting stubborn and selfish, thinking "I want to play the thing that doesn't work now and you guys are jerks, cause you don't want to take useless guy with themselves to a dungeon which requires great performance from all 5 members".
Dude, this is insane. You are yet playing archer when it's not even a secret that the path doesn't work? And blaming others? Who's fault is that?
By the way - who's problem is you can't find que for ToNG? Have you tried to make your own one? You're blaming everything and everyone for you characters' failure but the problem is you. It's like playing GWF as a tank role - sure, you CAN do it. But go be a GWF tank somwhere else, not in my ToNG party. Same with archery path - you wan't to play something that's clearly broken? Awesome, but I don't want to play ToNG with you since you're not able to accept that my party will need you to perform, not to be cool with yourself. We can run CN together, heck, even FBI where I can basically carry this myself with tank and DC. But not there - not in ToNG, this one's about the team.
It's funny, cause now I see that all these people moaning for balance are the one's who aren't capable of starting their own queue and the one's wanting to have it all at no cost.
Oh, @kangkeok you said I will never know a story behind weaker class. It's funny cause we play the same class and I'm actually very successful at it and you're on the other hand seem not. If we both play Hunter Ranger and the only difference between our characters is the guy who controls it, then please tell me, where do you think the problem is?
And let me repeat - I played all campaigns including mod11 without loadouts with Tactician GF and don't tell me about weaker class underperforming in this game.
I m just trying to prove my point that not every class is balanced and can do it like u say. Also i didnt post this to blame the community but rather to point out there is a problem with balancing in this game to the developer and asking maybe some solution from the comunity that will help. But there is more comment on nothings is wrong with class balance from u and suddenly u said archer is not viable. Isnt that class balance issue? Well except maybe u dont regard archer as a HR class? If so then i would agree with u that there is no balance problem with HR. And please, everyone is successfull with HR trapper when they know how to play them. But can people be successful with being an archer, even they know how to play them? or having geared up to top grade?
And maybe u should know too, HR trapper uses different gear setup than Archer do. So loadout isnt a solution either. And i dont think making an extra gear set is worth it. Might as well just play trapper and leave archer community to its demise if thats what u call balance.
Just a few comments. I hate to say it, but if you think, that switching the meta from OP/GF/2xDC/DPS to a rainbow group, would 'free up' tanks and healers for other content, you are plain wrong.
There was always a shortage of DCs/tanks, bc it was more difficult to level them and do campaigns. As it is, it would be quite easy, if ppl would know how to play for max speed, but most ppl dont.
You can either adapt to changes or just complain. Many players adapted and did build a GF, OP or DC alt. So changing the meta would not make me or many others play their DC/GF, so you can play with your dps, but play more with their own main again.
I think, that 90% of the ppl who ask for a meta group dont know, why this group is meta bc they dont understand the mechanics of other classes and 50% dont even understand their own class. I had countless discussions with AC DCs, who run with 40k power and stack recovery, who think, that righteous is not viable for AC DCs. Tactican GFs, who think, that using ITF is all they have to do etc.
The above mentioned combination is just good, if the OP, dps and the AC DC are well geared and all know how to play, really good with a well geared and played conqueror GF. Otherwise a well geared and played alternative is just as viable.
Keep in mind, that the group combination does just matter in TONG and to some extend in MSP and FBI. You can clear every other dungeon with two decent players in good time.
I am quite sure, that a change in class balance will not change the fact, that there is a meta. There will always be a meta and the other players will feel left out
I dont know, maybe they could make campaign and leveling stuff better suited support class to go through them? I mean people isnt gonna find challenge there but in the dungeon rite? Also making changes that wil still mantaining the importance of support class?
Its hard for me to pin point out on everything about how to balance thing here. It require alot of study and work things on how u wanna shape it. But then its not my job either and am not getting paid as well. The developer just need to plan carefully when doing balancing. That mean in all aspect, whether in dungeon design or other design in the game. Becasue so far alot of stuff they did isnt very much thought out. There are always other game out there which have done a better job at class balancing that the developer can refer to.
There is always meta in a game as long as the performance difference is huge. What that mean? Big balance issue. Some game might have balance issue too but the perfomance difference isnt huge and people wouldnt mind the small difference.
And please, everyone is successfull with HR trapper when they know how to play them. But can people be successful with being an archer, even they know how to play them? or having geared up to top grade?
This just shows me you don't know the class you're playing with. Even if you're 15/16/17k item lvl - you don't know HR class.
And yes - mastering class makes you successful and you didn't mastered yours. I already said it - want to play with bow? Pick trapper.
No one knows how to play archery path, that's why they don't play it. Best HR in this game, Sume, stated that this path isn't available for competetive play and he has no actual idea how to play it. So if a guy like Sume is not having idea of how to play this path, then please tell me why do you think you know how to play it?
I agree that what you should do is petition for archery rework. Till then I advice you to better know your class. Especially if you think that Trapper and Combat require same gear lol.
It's not whole mod that's build around it. I really think that people see this game as only ToNG now. Other dungeons are easily doable with oldschool party composition of 3x dps 2x support.
And let me say it out loud - ToNG was suppose to be an endgame dungeon. It's not for everyone. It's for endgame players. And let me say it again - every class can do it. If you're not performing well in ToNG then consider you're maybe not enough end game-ish for now and focus on making your toon better. Why it's so hard for people to admit they can't do something yet?
Major facepalm.
If something is "doable" is not the question for the topic "CLASS BALANCE" in which regards you're missing a key component called "TIME INVESTED". You may do each dungeon with a build well enough, but that doesn't negate the fact, which isn't something you can argue about, that debuffs/buffs are still the meta to which many people clinge for in order to complete the content way faster than people who do not utilize buff/debuff compositions.
And that is the lack of balance.
Neverwinter as a MMO was never "only few people can manage" sort of a deal. Comparing it to other mmo's is a no-go.
True Neutral
Left the Game due to heavy Damage Control & Missing Spanish Language
I disagree with the thought that tanks and crowd control are the same role. They are not, though a tank can do some CC but the main job of a tank is to hold threat. If you do CC the enemies are not threaten because they are being held in place, confused, stunned, etc... Enemies not CC need a tank to hold threat so that the enemy is not focused on the damage dealer or healer so that those two roles can properly do their jobs in group content.
Actually, technically, tank holding AGGRO is a form of a CC.
There are always two types of the CC, reactive and active.
The Reactive is based on the percentage of aggro that you're doing as a class and can be manifested by either skills (paladin) or pure damage (any class, really). This leads to kiting, which is one of the best components of any mmo game. Unfortunately, I didn't meet a lot of good players who utilize the mechanics of the game to their advantage nor they ever heard what kiting is to begin with.
The Active component of the CC is what you state - the Control Wizard option. The problem is, as we know, both the skills which got nerfed as well as the elite mobs tremendous CC resistance.
The utilization of the reactive component of the CC, by default, saves a lot of time, unless the monster mechanics have some bound-to rule applied to them.
True Neutral
Left the Game due to heavy Damage Control & Missing Spanish Language
And please, everyone is successfull with HR trapper when they know how to play them. But can people be successful with being an archer, even they know how to play them? or having geared up to top grade?
This just shows me you don't know the class you're playing with. Even if you're 15/16/17k item lvl - you don't know HR class.
And yes - mastering class makes you successful and you didn't mastered yours. I already said it - want to play with bow? Pick trapper.
No one knows how to play archery path, that's why they don't play it. Best HR in this game, Sume, stated that this path isn't available for competetive play and he has no actual idea how to play it. So if a guy like Sume is not having idea of how to play this path, then please tell me why do you think you know how to play it?
I agree that what you should do is petition for archery rework. Till then I advice you to better know your class. Especially if you think that Trapper and Combat require same gear lol.
umm..ok. but what makes u claim that i didnt master archery when u claim no one or even u know how to play it? Sometime i cant grasp ur point as it contradict each other so much. But anyway, its good u finally agree that balancing need to be done.
Just a few comments. I hate to say it, but if you think, that switching the meta from OP/GF/2xDC/DPS to a rainbow group, would 'free up' tanks and healers for other content, you are plain wrong.
There was always a shortage of DCs/tanks, bc it was more difficult to level them and do campaigns. As it is, it would be quite easy, if ppl would know how to play for max speed, but most ppl dont.
You can either adapt to changes or just complain. Many players adapted and did build a GF, OP or DC alt. So changing the meta would not make me or many others play their DC/GF, so you can play with your dps, but play more with their own main again.
I think, that 90% of the ppl who ask for a meta group dont know, why this group is meta bc they dont understand the mechanics of other classes and 50% dont even understand their own class. I had countless discussions with AC DCs, who run with 40k power and stack recovery, who think, that righteous is not viable for AC DCs. Tactican GFs, who think, that using ITF is all they have to do etc.
The above mentioned combination is just good, if the OP, dps and the AC DC are well geared and all know how to play, really good with a well geared and played conqueror GF. Otherwise a well geared and played alternative is just as viable.
Keep in mind, that the group combination does just matter in TONG and to some extend in MSP and FBI. You can clear every other dungeon with two decent players in good time.
I am quite sure, that a change in class balance will not change the fact, that there is a meta. There will always be a meta and the other players will feel left out
I dont know, maybe they could make campaign and leveling stuff better suited support class to go through them? I mean people isnt gonna find challenge there but in the dungeon rite? Also making changes that wil still mantaining the importance of support class?
Its hard for me to pin point out on everything about how to balance thing here. It require alot of study and work things on how u wanna shape it. But then its not my job either and am not getting paid as well. The developer just need to plan carefully when doing balancing. That mean in all aspect, whether in dungeon design or other design in the game. Becasue so far alot of stuff they did isnt very much thought out. There are always other game out there which have done a better job at class balancing that the developer can refer to.
There is always meta in a game as long as the performance difference is huge. What that mean? Big balance issue. Some game might have balance issue too but the perfomance difference isnt huge and people wouldnt mind the small difference.
The thing with balance is, that IMO classes are more or less balanced, on an average IL. If you go for 16k+ parties the synergies are better with some classes, then with others. For example, with a low IL DC DO is always superior to AC. With 17k, 60k power and a group with 13k+ bondings it is another matter. Low IL MOF CW can contribute more, then a low IL SS Thraum CW. With 17k+, in a well composed group, things are different. You can either exclude 99% of the community from the endgame or take it as a given, that these other 1% are OP, if they run the same dungeons, as the average player/ group.
NW is very forgiving and versatile. I played another MMO for years. In endgame dungeons the group composition was mandatory. The spec was mandatory. The rotation was mandatory. Your gear was mandatory. Endgame was doable by 1% and the other 99% had to run easier dungeons.
Chars: CW, DC, GF, GWF, HR and TR.
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putzboy78Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,950Arc User
edited January 2018
It still depends on what your trying to fix in the removal of 2xDC. I contend that the problem is not 2xDC, the problem is a perceived meta that no one wants to deviate from to get other classes some play. The meta as it currently exists is 1xOP, 1xGF, 1x GWF, 1xACDC, 1xDODC. To really give brainstorming a solution a fair chance we need a clear definition of what the issues are.
How does buffing gwf tank spec get TR, HR, SW, CW more play time?
How does buffing healidon get TR, HR, SW, CW more play time?
I think people are using terminology "2xDC" that confuses the real issue. Under the logic what really needs to happen is buffs to TR, HR, SW, & CW that would put them on par in the role that the developers class is associated with. We make assumptions on what the developer is envisioning. But lets say we move back to the more traditional roles of the classes (traditional as in what they were near the start of the game).
The ideal fixes would be along the lines of
Make TR single target ability far exceed GWF. So much so that you don't mind dragging along poor aoe ability in the interest of watching them crush a boss.
Reduce GWF AOE and buff CW dps ability so that aoe focused classes like CW get pulled in for example as the zombie cleaners on Orcus and meaningful help on mob spawns/souls on Ras Nsi.
I just don't have a clear understanding on where the additional classes HR and SW are supposed to fit but I would assume more utilitarian where they offer both buffs and dps or dps and heals etc. In which case the combination of their skills can justify their existence. Much like to like buffer/dps. Which would make them less ideal than dc in the buff/debuff category but far superior in the dps category enough to offset buff/debuff losses.
Healidon won't replace AC/DC in party unless Healidon can generate a control immunity which is arguably the most import function of AC/DC for the Ras Nsi fight.
General issue with Double DC is that when they were redoing DO DC they overbuffed it, so, it became such great buffer and the buffs nicely compliment those of AC DC. Together they are the strongest support possible in game atm. People also run with Double GF too, one with only DPS rotation the other with buffs/dps too.
But the Do rework was in direct relation to two nerfs
1) GF ITF (hence the resurgence of dps GFs) 2) Power share nerf
The rework was to keep the class alive and to give it 2 viable paths. I still miss having a cross class synergy between GF and DC. but this approach was an effort to simplify the mechanics which is less engaging.
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putzboy78Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,950Arc User
Except it won't, in TONG most GFs cannot handle the tanking role and DO can not handle the final boss because the AA cc immunity is almost required. Would be essential in a low dps group.
Tomb of the Nine Gods isn't the only content in the game though...
Not everyone is end game...
The freed up tank and Dc will be available to run other content.
That won't free up TONG DCs to help non-endgamers farm etos and msva. I don't envision 17k DCs farming etos for salvage. They will either TONG, play an alt, or be board and play something else.
The statement you just posted clearly shows that players are ignoring mechanics due to AA cc immunity. Similar to how AA was abused up until mod 11 for the damage immunity it offered.
As others pointed out it is not just TONG where 2 DCs are being called out for runs. FBI, MSPC, eToS, VT, etc...I see call out for various content where groups like running with 2 DC for faster runs, especially if the other 3 players are DPS.
I agree that a temp fix of removing private q would be anything but temporary. That is why I'm going to state this again, this game needs a revamp. How it is done I will leave to the devs. But it really needs one.
What is the mechanic answer to paralysis from Ras Nsi?
And if your seeing people looking for 2xDC for low end content. It's because they are stupid and I recommend you put them on ignore. Don't waste your time on inferior players. ETOS is a 9 minute dungeon on a bad day with one dc, who is going to spend 5 minutes looking for a second dc to make that run faster?
Even those of us who have long mained DCs may want to run other characters. We are not resources to be freed up for your use.
Take the previous statement as you see fit though the fact still remains the same whether a tank and DC (player(s)) is freed up to run those roles in another group(s) or to run another class(s) if at all, they will still be available to run other content. It wasn't explicitly stated that the player(s) had to remain in either of those roles.
That won't free up TONG DCs to help non-endgamers farm etos and msva. I don't envision 17k DCs farming etos for salvage. They will either TONG, play an alt, or be board and play something else.
You do not represent the majority of DC's...
Whether a player that has a DC runs content other than Tomb of the Nine Gods as a DC matters not (in regard to the previous statement), when the double DC meta loses viability the second tank/DC (player(s)) will be available for other content.
ALL Rights Reserved for any and all suggestions, ideas, etc. from this user.
“There are changes that can be made that don’t require coding...” - TriNitY "No amount of coding will change human behavior" - TriNitY
Sry...if all classes would be balanced there would not exist a phenomen that leads to the fact, that you find 24/7 something like these numbers inside Tong: 32 DC 18OP 12GWF 10GF 10 classes of your choice not listed above
This simply disproves a lot of stuff written in this threat, since these are the average numbers a lot of player displayed in several threats and different timezones throughout mod 12/12b Some here claim to run with any class combo and claim things are balanced... Those player are pretty rare if you look at those numbers. Maybe things will change when player geared up, but for the last month I only experiences these numbers. Some player in this threat did never show up.
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thefabricantMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 5,248Arc User
Sry...if all classes would be balanced there would not exist a phenomen that leads to the fact, that you find 24/7 something like these numbers inside Tong:
32 DC
18OP
12GWF
10GF
10 classes of your choice not listed above
This simply disproves a lot of stuff written in this threat, since these are the average numbers a lot of player displayed in several threats and different timezones throughout mod 12/12b
Some here claim to run with any class combo and claim things are balanced... Those player are pretty rare if you look at those numbers.
Maybe things will change when player geared up, but for the last month I only experiences these numbers.
Some player in this threat did never show up.
1) Lfg will always deviate towards the meta, but you can still finish content with non meta groups in a reasonable time. We could probably do it in 20 mins with no lag and if we weren't talking/having fun and were playing seriously. Yes, a meta group can do it in half the time, but so what. If you can't make a meta group in under 13 minutes, then it is faster to go in like this. 2) Don't use random runs to justify your arguments, randoms use sub optimal builds, do not play properly, do not co-ordinate and do not know what they are doing in general. 3) All classes are tomb viable if built properly.
> @trinity706#8838 said: > Even those of us who have long mained DCs may want to run other characters. We are not resources to be freed up for your use. > > Take the previous statement as you see fit though the fact still remains the same whether a tank and DC (player(s)) is freed up to run those roles in another group(s) or to run another class(s) if at all, they will still be available to run other content. It wasn't explicitly stated that the player(s) had to remain in either of those roles.
How are they now available to run content that they chose not to run before? No one is forced to get on a support class and run Tomb. Changing the meta doesn't free them because they weren't under duress to begin with.
"We have always been at war with Dread Vault" ~ Little Brother
Sure I did myself, without OP, with one DC myself etc. and did not lose time or fun doing so. But if you simply press o type tomb and press return you get told how player run actually. It is not me, it is the hole community 24/7 , so what do we talk about? How you can run in theory or how things are >90% of the day? It is a fact hard to deny and hard to stand against , when the overwhelming majority simply sticks with it.
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thefabricantMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 5,248Arc User
jumpingmorksMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 876Arc User
Screw balance.
As long as you keep each class competetive with each other, 'players' will compete. GF's for example, also my favourite class, folks don't usually roll GF's in the vain hope they can be like the 1% that can do enough damage that the entire community wnats the class nerfed into the ground. I rolled a GF so I could be hard to kill, but right now all I am is a sub GWF with a shield.
Every class should have it's strengths and weaknesses, I never really understood why CW's and SW's who lack Unstoppable and other feats/encounters that increase their survivability by a large margin should be passed over in TONG runs for a GWF, if they lack defense they should be compensated with increased damage.
Same with TR, they could be amazing boss killers and burst kings with their burst damage linked squarely to their Stealth ability.
Am not saying these examples are THE answer, nor ever AN answer just an example of what can happen when you remove competitivenes from comparing classes which is like comparing apples and oranges, it's a subjective argument and you will only yield subjective answers and opinions, none of which will answer the issues we have right now.
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jumpingmorksMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 876Arc User
The current meta is 1 of the more healthy ones that has existed in this games history. It is definitely healthier than the meta of mod 5. Not saying it can't be better, but its definitely not the worst.
If u are talking about the double dc meta, how can it be more balance in this game history? I think its the most unbalance mod if u ask me since it involve only 1 ultimate party set up that could stomp any content effectively. Any other combination, cant even match its performance in survivability & dps and that causes the community to hand pick certain class out to match that combination. Its a mess if u ask me. It left so many class out of the game. In my opinion, the best class balance is reached when there are more than one combination which are almost equal in its performance that involved all class. In short, as long as everyone gets to play the game with the class they pick, then the class is balanced. Current meta is definately not healthy at all. In fact i feel its the worse than mod 5 since it only have 1 type of party set up that rules all. Back in mod 5, people could actualy PuG and complete the dungeon with more than one party set up.
I think you must be referring to TONG and TONG alone, since almost every other dungeon can be completed by a vast array of different party makeups.
Also, if they do fix 2xDC meta, what happens if GF/OP becomes a serious meta, which in a way it is already in TONG, how are you going to address that issue with any bandaid you can think of to stop players using 2xDC?
> @thefabricant said: > Sure I did myself. > > But if you simply press o type tomb and press return you geht gold how player run actually. It is not me, it is the hole community 24/7 > > That is a community issue then and changing classes won't fix human nature. Whatever is the new bis, they will spam for 24/7.
I am pretty sure it is not the hole truth.
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jumpingmorksMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 876Arc User
1) Don't even see why the whole, "reduce damage given by x stat" is necessary for support classes.
2) GWF doesn't double or triple the dps of any class unless you are counting DC and OP.
3) Never going to happen. Takes far too much development resources to make all that stuff and guess what, it won't solve the problem. 1 of the routes in a dungeon will be faster than all the others, people will just pick the class that solves that particular route the fastest and the meta will simply be, "that dungeon with that class." If the routes are selected at random, it doesn't solve the problem either. People will still take the class that can do the fastest route and hope to get it, because it will be faster than hoping you get any of the other routes.
In both of my solutions, there is no class balance and I admit that up front. The difference is, in mine, each class takes a turn being the unbalanced one so overall there is a "net balance." In your example, there is still 1 clear winner and there is no balance. Anyone who thinks they can achieve a situation where all classes are equal for every piece of content is deluding themselves
@thefabricant it's funny how you are molding a suggestion made by someone else into what YOU want it to be just so you can argue against it lol.
The prerequisites to the suggested OR (optional route) system are pretty much already in the game. As previously stated with Tomb of the Nine Gods there are already random puzzles and instead of or in addition to what's already in the coding add in a class(s) check. Currently if a puzzle is failed there are consequences such as being dropped into a different part of the dungeon, this could be expanded upon, if x class is present during the check and matches, y OR is available, if x and y classes are available during the check and matches z OR is available.
Whether a particular "route" could/would be faster is not the point, the ability for non-meta groups to be able to run and complete content more efficiently without having to spend so much time just trying to get the group full to start the content in the first place is.
Also with the OR's being random whether any is present in the first place let alone what class(s) it would require there would be no way to plan ahead what classes to bring so having 5 out of 8 classes present would grant more optional route availability than 4 of the 8 classes especially if two (or more) different classes are required for the OR(s). If there is a meta where classes are stacked/multiple support classes required then that means that those groups will have even less chances to be able to utilize the OR's which is ok, you make your bed, you lay in it.
OR's would have to be random, if not, players being players would form groups for the fastest route. It could be set a number of ways, it could even be where a non-stacked group (1 Tank, 1 DC, 3 DPS) gets OR availability and a stacked group doesn't. "Meta" groups can still burn through the content without OR's (if possible) and non-Meta groups can have availability to complete content in times that are comparable.
Again, currently how the system works tanks can out DPS actual DPS classes with little to no penalty. Simply reducing the amount of DPS from power would balance two classes (OP/GF)(it wouldn't be as beneficial to bring a second tank vs an actual DPS class), everything else that power buffs would remain the same and the looming double DC nerf will bring up the other end of the scale
Who wants to put classes that they have worked on to the side until their "time to shine month" comes up and then put them back to the side when it is over? Why not be able to shine at any given time with being forced into a meta group? All classes/DPS classes don't have to perform equally, just don't have it to where particular classes are favored and others ousted simply because of the disparity between them.
If you think DPS GF's have anywhere near the same level of protection a tank GF has you're smoking something.
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jumpingmorksMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 876Arc User
Like u said u will still play those class cause its fun, but there wont be fun when u need to work extra effort just to play the content compare to other classes. Some class could access end game content due to their class is on demand, while other depends on luck & pity from the community to access the content. Sometime it seem impossible and frustrating for them that it seem playing other game is much better.
Seriously mate, I own a tactician GF and played him as tactician pre loadouts. Do you know what it means? Have you ever tried to kill mobs in IWD, SoMI or River District with pure tactician guardian fighter? Belive me, I know what is extra effort to play content other classes do with one hand and eyes closed.
As the game is now - I don't find it needs any more balancing/nerfing. The only thing I would change now is SW, cause this is the only class that is underperforming a little. All other classes are viable and able to play all the content.
You guys don't want to balance this game, you guys want your class to be "first choice" in the picking order to ToNG/FBI/MSP runs. You are blaming the meta, but yet you don't want to make your own goddamn que just spamming for 3 hours "LFG" instead of "LFM".
I would also like to share that my fastest tong run was 23mins and we had SW as only dps. Where's your logic now?
Also, please guys. Define what is balancing to you? Cause I find this game pretty much balanced cause every class can play every piece of content.
Don't blame balance when people are just going the easy way, cause they want to finish dungeon in the fastest possible way. You guys think that nerfing will fix this issue? Sure, with this setup. Then there will be new setup with new classes that will be performing best in terms of speedrunning.
GF's were given a 20% base damage increase around mod 6 (and very much welcomed too by those who liked to run Tact/Prot) that was not changed when loadouts appeared, it appears logical to me that the previous buff was overlooked or forgotten when they planned/implemented loadouts.
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jumpingmorksMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 876Arc User
And please, everyone is successfull with HR trapper when they know how to play them. But can people be successful with being an archer, even they know how to play them? or having geared up to top grade?
This just shows me you don't know the class you're playing with. Even if you're 15/16/17k item lvl - you don't know HR class.
And yes - mastering class makes you successful and you didn't mastered yours. I already said it - want to play with bow? Pick trapper.
No one knows how to play archery path, that's why they don't play it. Best HR in this game, Sume, stated that this path isn't available for competetive play and he has no actual idea how to play it. So if a guy like Sume is not having idea of how to play this path, then please tell me why do you think you know how to play it?
I agree that what you should do is petition for archery rework. Till then I advice you to better know your class. Especially if you think that Trapper and Combat require same gear lol.
umm..ok. but what makes u claim that i didnt master archery when u claim no one or even u know how to play it? Sometime i cant grasp ur point as it contradict each other so much. But anyway, its good u finally agree that balancing need to be done.
Because it's widely recognised that Sume HAS mastered HR :P
But if you simply press o type tomb and press return you geht gold how player run actually. It is not me, it is the hole community 24/7
That is a community issue then and changing classes won't fix human nature. Whatever is the new bis, they will spam for 24/7.
U dont mean a single type of human do u? I mean there are alot people with different idea when they play the game. Some are completionist, pefectionist and some are casual. Perfectionist will continue to spam for BIS while the casual will continue to play with whatever setup thrown at them. Balance is just numbers that can be controled by the developer. Player made build out of those number that is given by developer. If BIS and non BIS were a few number apart, speed are 80% affected by ilvl, 20% by others( party composition, BIS, skill etc..) and content is doable by both without huge difference, then i say the game is on the right track. Some people will still spam for BIS but alot more will spam for anything that could get the game going. Currently there is only one setup that can get their game going without much problem and that is why everyone is spamming it. But if any setup could get the game going without much problem, then u will see more poeple spaming on any setup they can find since its not much different and dungeon could be done by both BIS or non BIS alike.
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putzboy78Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,950Arc User
Whether a player that has a DC runs content other than Tomb of the Nine Gods as a DC matters not (in regard to the previous statement), when the double DC meta loses viability the second tank/DC (player(s)) will be available for other content.
Why would i run etos for a 4k salvage when i can run TONG to make a potential 800K from UESs (and more salvage). Sure some people may get bored if they are having issues getting into TONG and run something else. Others will simply sign off and go to bed (or another game), and lets not forget as referenced by others that many who have come from DC will simply go back to their preferred class.
This is where we need a clear definition of the problem.
Is the problem that there isn't enough dcs in low end content? If so that's more about making the class attractive to non-endgamers.
Is the problem that the wait time to find 2 dcs for endgame content is to much? The answer here is easily fixed by capitalist market principles. Rewards must offset the difficulty in going in a non-meta format. Which points again to the reward system for RQ Hero's Accord doesn't provide that offset.
Is the problem that TR, HR, SW, and SW don't get enough play in endgame content? That's a balancing issue that needs to be adjusted.
We need to be clear on the problem we are trying to resolve and pick a solution that resolves that issue. For example if the problem is we just don't want to 2 of the same role in an instance, the easy fix is to not allow them to queue in a 2 same class configuration. However, that fix is a bandaid on a symptom that is not the true problem. Then everyone will be QQing because they are spending an hour on something that used to take 25 minutes, using more life scrolls, and people under 15k can't successfully complete the content. Using TONG as a baseline we can see clearing on bosses 1 and 3 that their is a timer for completion, if you don't have enough DPS you will fail. The design is not one that can be overcome through survive-ability.
What is the mechanic answer to paralysis from Ras Nsi?
The counter is dodging the attack ... when the attack which applies PP has a hitbox the size of Avatar of Orcus' HP bar.
Good luck!
Agreed, its amazing that I've seen it both ignore dodge (or at least I perceive it has) and distance constraints. Basically if he's targeting you, your fd.
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kreatyveMember, Neverwinter Moderator, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 10,545Community Moderator
There were 3 large topics regarding this same topic. They have all been merged now, to make it easier to keep track of. Sorry for any inconvenience.
My opinions are my own. I do not work for PWE or Cryptic. - Forum Rules - Protector's Enclave Discord - I play on Xbox Any of my comments not posted in orange are based on my own personal opinion and not official. Any messages written in orange are official moderation messages. Signature images are now fixed!
> @kangkeok said: > Sure I did myself. > > But if you simply press o type tomb and press return you geht gold how player run actually. It is not me, it is the hole community 24/7 > > That is a community issue then and changing classes won't fix human nature. Whatever is the new bis, they will spam for 24/7. > > U dont mean a single type of human do u? I mean there are alot people with different idea when they play the game. Some are completionist, pefectionist and some are casual. Perfectionist will continue to spam for BIS while the casual will continue to play with whatever setup thrown at them. Balance is just numbers that can be controled by the developer. Player made build out of those number that is given by developer. If BIS and non BIS were a few number apart, speed are 80% affected by ilvl, 20% by others( party composition, BIS, skill etc..) and content is doable by both without huge difference, then i say the game is on the right track. Some people will still spam for BIS but alot more will spam for anything that could get the game going. Currently there is only one setup that can get their game going without much problem and that is why everyone is spamming it. But if any setup could get the game going without much problem, then u will see more poeple spaming on any setup they can find since its not much different and dungeon could be done by both BIS or non BIS alike.
What you say here is that you want to just swing the weapon and do damage. Based on IL you want the completion of dungeon to be sure for you, you don't want to accept that you can fail inside this dungeon. You want it for granted no matter how bad you play. Your balance idea is "everyone's whos entering tong will complete it and the only difference is timing".
Wow, just wow. This is amazing how lazy can people be. Instead of working on your toon, you come here and say "make me stronger, make them weaker, I want to press a mouse button and kill everything around". Wow.
This dungeon isn't for you. This class isn't for you. HR is about skill and you don't know anything about it. You want to compete in endgame? Be endgame.
Comments
You can't blame people not wanting you if you don't want to be there for the people. You're acting stubborn and selfish, thinking "I want to play the thing that doesn't work now and you guys are jerks, cause you don't want to take useless guy with themselves to a dungeon which requires great performance from all 5 members".
Dude, this is insane. You are yet playing archer when it's not even a secret that the path doesn't work? And blaming others? Who's fault is that?
By the way - who's problem is you can't find que for ToNG? Have you tried to make your own one? You're blaming everything and everyone for you characters' failure but the problem is you. It's like playing GWF as a tank role - sure, you CAN do it. But go be a GWF tank somwhere else, not in my ToNG party. Same with archery path - you wan't to play something that's clearly broken? Awesome, but I don't want to play ToNG with you since you're not able to accept that my party will need you to perform, not to be cool with yourself. We can run CN together, heck, even FBI where I can basically carry this myself with tank and DC. But not there - not in ToNG, this one's about the team.
It's funny, cause now I see that all these people moaning for balance are the one's who aren't capable of starting their own queue and the one's wanting to have it all at no cost.
Oh, @kangkeok you said I will never know a story behind weaker class. It's funny cause we play the same class and I'm actually very successful at it and you're on the other hand seem not. If we both play Hunter Ranger and the only difference between our characters is the guy who controls it, then please tell me, where do you think the problem is?
And let me repeat - I played all campaigns including mod11 without loadouts with Tactician GF and don't tell me about weaker class underperforming in this game.
There was always a shortage of DCs/tanks, bc it was more difficult to level them and do campaigns. As it is, it would be quite easy, if ppl would know how to play for max speed, but most ppl dont.
You can either adapt to changes or just complain. Many players adapted and did build a GF, OP or DC alt. So changing the meta would not make me or many others play their DC/GF, so you can play with your dps, but play more with their own main again.
I think, that 90% of the ppl who ask for a meta group dont know, why this group is meta bc they dont understand the mechanics of other classes and 50% dont even understand their own class. I had countless discussions with AC DCs, who run with 40k power and stack recovery, who think, that righteous is not viable for AC DCs. Tactican GFs, who think, that using ITF is all they have to do etc.
The above mentioned combination is just good, if the OP, dps and the AC DC are well geared and all know how to play, really good with a well geared and played conqueror GF. Otherwise a well geared and played alternative is just as viable.
Keep in mind, that the group combination does just matter in TONG and to some extend in MSP and FBI. You can clear every other dungeon with two decent players in good time.
I am quite sure, that a change in class balance will not change the fact, that there is a meta. There will always be a meta and the other players will feel left out
If your guild is big enough and your fl is more than just a "i want your DC exclusively alliance" you are lucky.
But the reality looks the other way.
The moment i hop in my warlock I get zero requests, the moment i switch towards my DC tons of requests.
That's what everyone experiences normally.
I run tong with DC GF SW and also beside the meta, but that does not change the fact that double DC+OP is far beyond everything other class-combos are capable to do.
You end up with double DC or OP DC GF most time, and sure it's also a matter of petsonal skill and setup. But the average Party will allways be a mix of better vor worse player.
@wizardlvl80#5963 i allways look for group performance, wich forces me to run buffer companions and adept encounter/feature to use, and my runs do not last hours, but the average build you draw about successfull rainbowparties smooth runs at any occasion only tells me one thing. You run a favoured class with premades and never pug.
Balance is needed , but it's not my job. I do know pretty well how to fix it with pretty small changes though.
You can't expect to every path in every class to be equally viable. HR is in quite good spot anyway (with HR trapper, HR combat SW/PF variations). Of course it would be nice to see Archery more viable but it's not bad spot at all. I could also run virtuous DC or even Faithful and I would had the same problems getting in Tong runs (or OP Bulwark and so on). And you're saying "class" like Hr Trapper class but it's the same class..just different build. What you should do is sign petition for rework on HR Archery (but it's honestly far away in the queue of needed reworks).
In my meaning of class balance does include class path.
Wait a mod or two and you will see plenty public queues for Tong. I've done some so far too. And for now run it with your friends..remember there is not point of 20 min runs when you're looking for an hour for full team and you could do 30-40 min in meantime with what you have already. And it's end game content so it's understable that 15-16k player have better performance there than 12k ones.
I already waited that far and done what u have said. I m not complaining for it to happen now but just pointing out where it goes wrong and hopefully developer knows it.
I don't see how it's possible to make everyone viable the same..the sheer amount of work is astonishing. Rainbow buff is easy and very good solution to start with. Just look how long it takes for them to rework few powers in one class for devs already. And show me DPS class who is doing double or triple of other dps class (and I mean class..not path of class. Like my DC DO is doing 10x of DC AC dps easily because of build etc) right now.
It might cost alots of resources but a well plan and made balance will save them any future resource in long term. Be it rainbow buff or power rework, i dont care much as long as people gets to play equally disregard of class and path. But i still think power rework is a more proper solution. But yea, it takes so long for them to rework few power & also a risk of getting the job badly done ( power getting over nerf/buff) that people lost confident and rather not let the developer balance them. Rainbow buff for me is like a "no choice" solution. Even so the real problem is still there.
@wizardlvl80#5963 I m just trying to prove my point that not every class is balanced and can do it like u say. Also i didnt post this to blame the community but rather to point out there is a problem with balancing in this game to the developer and asking maybe some solution from the comunity that will help. But there is more comment on nothings is wrong with class balance from u and suddenly u said archer is not viable. Isnt that class balance issue? Well except maybe u dont regard archer as a HR class? If so then i would agree with u that there is no balance problem with HR. And please, everyone is successfull with HR trapper when they know how to play them. But can people be successful with being an archer, even they know how to play them? or having geared up to top grade?
And maybe u should know too, HR trapper uses different gear setup than Archer do. So loadout isnt a solution either. And i dont think making an extra gear set is worth it. Might as well just play trapper and leave archer community to its demise if thats what u call balance.
Its hard for me to pin point out on everything about how to balance thing here. It require alot of study and work things on how u wanna shape it. But then its not my job either and am not getting paid as well. The developer just need to plan carefully when doing balancing. That mean in all aspect, whether in dungeon design or other design in the game. Becasue so far alot of stuff they did isnt very much thought out. There are always other game out there which have done a better job at class balancing that the developer can refer to.
There is always meta in a game as long as the performance difference is huge. What that mean? Big balance issue. Some game might have balance issue too but the perfomance difference isnt huge and people wouldnt mind the small difference.
This just shows me you don't know the class you're playing with. Even if you're 15/16/17k item lvl - you don't know HR class.
And yes - mastering class makes you successful and you didn't mastered yours. I already said it - want to play with bow? Pick trapper.
No one knows how to play archery path, that's why they don't play it. Best HR in this game, Sume, stated that this path isn't available for competetive play and he has no actual idea how to play it. So if a guy like Sume is not having idea of how to play this path, then please tell me why do you think you know how to play it?
I agree that what you should do is petition for archery rework. Till then I advice you to better know your class. Especially if you think that Trapper and Combat require same gear lol.
If something is "doable" is not the question for the topic "CLASS BALANCE" in which regards you're missing a key component called "TIME INVESTED". You may do each dungeon with a build well enough, but that doesn't negate the fact, which isn't something you can argue about, that debuffs/buffs are still the meta to which many people clinge for in order to complete the content way faster than people who do not utilize buff/debuff compositions.
And that is the lack of balance.
Neverwinter as a MMO was never "only few people can manage" sort of a deal. Comparing it to other mmo's is a no-go.
There are always two types of the CC, reactive and active.
The Reactive is based on the percentage of aggro that you're doing as a class and can be manifested by either skills (paladin) or pure damage (any class, really). This leads to kiting, which is one of the best components of any mmo game. Unfortunately, I didn't meet a lot of good players who utilize the mechanics of the game to their advantage nor they ever heard what kiting is to begin with.
The Active component of the CC is what you state - the Control Wizard option. The problem is, as we know, both the skills which got nerfed as well as the elite mobs tremendous CC resistance.
The utilization of the reactive component of the CC, by default, saves a lot of time, unless the monster mechanics have some bound-to rule applied to them.
and a group with 13k+ bondings it is another matter. Low IL MOF CW can contribute more, then a low IL SS Thraum CW. With 17k+, in a well composed group, things are different. You can either exclude 99% of the community from the endgame or take it as a given, that these other 1% are OP, if they run the same dungeons, as the average player/ group.
NW is very forgiving and versatile. I played another MMO for years. In endgame dungeons the group composition was mandatory. The spec was mandatory. The rotation was mandatory. Your gear was mandatory. Endgame was doable by 1% and the other 99% had to run easier dungeons.
How does buffing gwf tank spec get TR, HR, SW, CW more play time?
How does buffing healidon get TR, HR, SW, CW more play time?
I think people are using terminology "2xDC" that confuses the real issue. Under the logic what really needs to happen is buffs to TR, HR, SW, & CW that would put them on par in the role that the developers class is associated with. We make assumptions on what the developer is envisioning. But lets say we move back to the more traditional roles of the classes (traditional as in what they were near the start of the game).
The ideal fixes would be along the lines of
Make TR single target ability far exceed GWF. So much so that you don't mind dragging along poor aoe ability in the interest of watching them crush a boss.
Reduce GWF AOE and buff CW dps ability so that aoe focused classes like CW get pulled in for example as the zombie cleaners on Orcus and meaningful help on mob spawns/souls on Ras Nsi.
I just don't have a clear understanding on where the additional classes HR and SW are supposed to fit but I would assume more utilitarian where they offer both buffs and dps or dps and heals etc. In which case the combination of their skills can justify their existence. Much like to like buffer/dps. Which would make them less ideal than dc in the buff/debuff category but far superior in the dps category enough to offset buff/debuff losses.
Healidon won't replace AC/DC in party unless Healidon can generate a control immunity which is arguably the most import function of AC/DC for the Ras Nsi fight. But the Do rework was in direct relation to two nerfs
1) GF ITF (hence the resurgence of dps GFs)
2) Power share nerf
The rework was to keep the class alive and to give it 2 viable paths. I still miss having a cross class synergy between GF and DC. but this approach was an effort to simplify the mechanics which is less engaging.
What is the mechanic answer to paralysis from Ras Nsi?
And if your seeing people looking for 2xDC for low end content. It's because they are stupid and I recommend you put them on ignore. Don't waste your time on inferior players. ETOS is a 9 minute dungeon on a bad day with one dc, who is going to spend 5 minutes looking for a second dc to make that run faster?
Whether a player that has a DC runs content other than Tomb of the Nine Gods as a DC matters not (in regard to the previous statement), when the double DC meta loses viability the second tank/DC (player(s)) will be available for other content.
“There are changes that can be made that don’t require coding...” - TriNitY
"No amount of coding will change human behavior" - TriNitY
Ongoing Issue: Legitmate Players Banned for Botting (Console) and the Future for "Dedicated" Players
Suggestions: (Implemented) \/\/ Rearrange Character on character Select Screen
Good luck!
32 DC
18OP
12GWF
10GF
10 classes of your choice not listed above
This simply disproves a lot of stuff written in this threat, since these are the average numbers a lot of player displayed in several threats and different timezones throughout mod 12/12b
Some here claim to run with any class combo and claim things are balanced... Those player are pretty rare if you look at those numbers.
Maybe things will change when player geared up, but for the last month I only experiences these numbers.
Some player in this threat did never show up.
1) Lfg will always deviate towards the meta, but you can still finish content with non meta groups in a reasonable time. We could probably do it in 20 mins with no lag and if we weren't talking/having fun and were playing seriously. Yes, a meta group can do it in half the time, but so what. If you can't make a meta group in under 13 minutes, then it is faster to go in like this.
2) Don't use random runs to justify your arguments, randoms use sub optimal builds, do not play properly, do not co-ordinate and do not know what they are doing in general.
3) All classes are tomb viable if built properly.
> Even those of us who have long mained DCs may want to run other characters. We are not resources to be freed up for your use.
>
> Take the previous statement as you see fit though the fact still remains the same whether a tank and DC (player(s)) is freed up to run those roles in another group(s) or to run another class(s) if at all, they will still be available to run other content. It wasn't explicitly stated that the player(s) had to remain in either of those roles.
How are they now available to run content that they chose not to run before? No one is forced to get on a support class and run Tomb. Changing the meta doesn't free them because they weren't under duress to begin with.
But if you simply press o type tomb and press return you get told how player run actually. It is not me, it is the hole community 24/7 , so what do we talk about?
How you can run in theory or how things are >90% of the day?
It is a fact hard to deny and hard to stand against , when the overwhelming majority simply sticks with it.
As long as you keep each class competetive with each other, 'players' will compete. GF's for example, also my favourite class, folks don't usually roll GF's in the vain hope they can be like the 1% that can do enough damage that the entire community wnats the class nerfed into the ground. I rolled a GF so I could be hard to kill, but right now all I am is a sub GWF with a shield.
Every class should have it's strengths and weaknesses, I never really understood why CW's and SW's who lack Unstoppable and other feats/encounters that increase their survivability by a large margin should be passed over in TONG runs for a GWF, if they lack defense they should be compensated with increased damage.
Same with TR, they could be amazing boss killers and burst kings with their burst damage linked squarely to their Stealth ability.
Am not saying these examples are THE answer, nor ever AN answer just an example of what can happen when you remove competitivenes from comparing classes which is like comparing apples and oranges, it's a subjective argument and you will only yield subjective answers and opinions, none of which will answer the issues we have right now.
Also, if they do fix 2xDC meta, what happens if GF/OP becomes a serious meta, which in a way it is already in TONG, how are you going to address that issue with any bandaid you can think of to stop players using 2xDC?
> Sure I did myself.
>
> But if you simply press o type tomb and press return you geht gold how player run actually. It is not me, it is the hole community 24/7
>
> That is a community issue then and changing classes won't fix human nature. Whatever is the new bis, they will spam for 24/7.
I am pretty sure it is not the hole truth.
This is where we need a clear definition of the problem.
Is the problem that there isn't enough dcs in low end content? If so that's more about making the class attractive to non-endgamers.
Is the problem that the wait time to find 2 dcs for endgame content is to much? The answer here is easily fixed by capitalist market principles. Rewards must offset the difficulty in going in a non-meta format. Which points again to the reward system for RQ Hero's Accord doesn't provide that offset.
Is the problem that TR, HR, SW, and SW don't get enough play in endgame content? That's a balancing issue that needs to be adjusted.
We need to be clear on the problem we are trying to resolve and pick a solution that resolves that issue. For example if the problem is we just don't want to 2 of the same role in an instance, the easy fix is to not allow them to queue in a 2 same class configuration. However, that fix is a bandaid on a symptom that is not the true problem. Then everyone will be QQing because they are spending an hour on something that used to take 25 minutes, using more life scrolls, and people under 15k can't successfully complete the content. Using TONG as a baseline we can see clearing on bosses 1 and 3 that their is a timer for completion, if you don't have enough DPS you will fail. The design is not one that can be overcome through survive-ability. Agreed, its amazing that I've seen it both ignore dodge (or at least I perceive it has) and distance constraints. Basically if he's targeting you, your fd.
Any of my comments not posted in orange are based on my own personal opinion and not official.
Any messages written in orange are official moderation messages. Signature images are now fixed!
> Sure I did myself.
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> But if you simply press o type tomb and press return you geht gold how player run actually. It is not me, it is the hole community 24/7
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> That is a community issue then and changing classes won't fix human nature. Whatever is the new bis, they will spam for 24/7.
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> U dont mean a single type of human do u? I mean there are alot people with different idea when they play the game. Some are completionist, pefectionist and some are casual. Perfectionist will continue to spam for BIS while the casual will continue to play with whatever setup thrown at them. Balance is just numbers that can be controled by the developer. Player made build out of those number that is given by developer. If BIS and non BIS were a few number apart, speed are 80% affected by ilvl, 20% by others( party composition, BIS, skill etc..) and content is doable by both without huge difference, then i say the game is on the right track. Some people will still spam for BIS but alot more will spam for anything that could get the game going. Currently there is only one setup that can get their game going without much problem and that is why everyone is spamming it. But if any setup could get the game going without much problem, then u will see more poeple spaming on any setup they can find since its not much different and dungeon could be done by both BIS or non BIS alike.
What you say here is that you want to just swing the weapon and do damage. Based on IL you want the completion of dungeon to be sure for you, you don't want to accept that you can fail inside this dungeon. You want it for granted no matter how bad you play. Your balance idea is "everyone's whos entering tong will complete it and the only difference is timing".
Wow, just wow. This is amazing how lazy can people be. Instead of working on your toon, you come here and say "make me stronger, make them weaker, I want to press a mouse button and kill everything around". Wow.
This dungeon isn't for you. This class isn't for you. HR is about skill and you don't know anything about it. You want to compete in endgame? Be endgame.