I still miss the old CN. CC had a place and it was really fun with singularity + shield and repel. It actually took some skill and timing to get it right and it wasnt all about DPS all the time. They should bring back some of that, like pushing enemies off the cliff
I think they need to re-arrange the classes so they actually do what they are ment to do. Tank shall tank and not DPS. CW shall control and not DPS etc and then create content where u actually need most of these so no class is leftout. You shouldnt be able to run a dungeon without a tank, a healer, a DPS and controller. They should all be needed. I wouldnt have a problem with each class being able to do more than one of these things, like CW can control and DPS but not both at once and if you pick a DPS CW, then you need another class or another CW that has to do the controlling. And we have loadouts so it would be easy to run different setups.
But I wouldnd say there is 48 styles of play since 40 of them or so are not even close to be viable.
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greywyndMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 7,153Arc User
Depends on how you define "viable".
I'm not looking for forgiveness, and I'm way past asking permission. Earth just lost her best defender, so we're here to fight. And if you want to stand in our way, we'll fight you too.
I think he means useful and pertinent in end game content. GWF, HR (mostly), TR, Pally are pretty much set in stone in end game content. DC has 2 metas, CW has 2 metas, GF has 2 metas, SW has 2 metas. Arguably 12 “viable” or functional/purposeful builds in end game content with some limited variability.
On ambush rings: "How would you like PVE if all the mobs were invisible?"
I can´t consider SW as "meta", if we talk about a setup of 5 player inside an endgame-dungeon. Most TR´s also would disagree I guess, following that actual discussions. I can´t even consider a dps-GF as meta, if I take into account , that >99% of all those SM-GF can´t stand vs my warlock in terms of dps, but the majority of all similar geared GWF´s can, and one out of 1000 GF´s is capable to transfer crazy numbers inside a preset group, and only inside that group. All depends on how you define meta. If you talk about warlock itself in terms of focus-dps, the meta would be a broken setup, running a Soulbinder-fury, with a Feytouched enchant, spamming Soulscorch on top of a "Non-WAI" daily.
Every class has metas even if they feel their class is underpowered. However running with the “meta” of Pally, Gf, DC,DC, fill in the blank, no class is unable to compete. I’ve ran with TR, SW, HR, CW, GWF, GF as primary dps and finished the dungeon in 26 minutes or less depending on the group and multiple variables. Some classes must work harder at builds and gear to make it work, some classes are cookie cutter. However all classes have at least one meta that performs best in group settings.
On ambush rings: "How would you like PVE if all the mobs were invisible?"
If you want to balance things then nerfing needs to happen, it's really that simple, if you disagree then explain to me how else to deal with overpowered classes, make everyone else overpowered as well?
Nerfing is not balancing. Nerfing is what a technician makes, if he is lazy or got no clue at all.How can you say overpowered classes? Where? When? Some example how "good" nerfs worked in the past:
- Nerf bounding stones...boundings werent never the issue. Never. The community told this hundred times and told them whats the issue is. Well...what did they do? Nerf... - Nerf SE, cuzz its to strong in PVP....they did it and SE was useless after that nerf in PVE. They never changed it - Nerf singularity. Do you really think they nerfed singularity bc it was to strong? Well...if you find a bug ingame and you fix it with a nerf from a specific class? Sry...i dont get it. - Why did they nerf ALL CC classes? Why do we have so many dungeons with CC immune mobs? I call this a nerf too. Why do we have CC classes,but they can CC any mob??
There are so much more examples why nerfing was never a good solution for balancing. Mostly of the time they make nerfs ingame when ppl like you claiming that this or that class is to overpowered. No proofe, no testings. Just claiming. So many ppl claiming ( like the shittpants) that GWF is totally overpowered. Thats funny bc i saw vids from orcus in tong where a GF melts him down in 7 secounds. Can anyone show me a GWF who can do that?
Balancing is really work! You have to check all circumstances. Nerf? Is just a lazy try to make some crybabys happy.
I think class balance is a myth that people are repeating one after another so often that they actually belived that this is the cure for every flaw this game has. I actually don't care about class balance. If my GF or HR would be nerfed to ground I would still play them cause it's fun. And no, I don't play dps GF -just asuming that after my post will scream "DPS GF UNBALANCED!!!!!1111oneone". Pure tank/buffer here.
I would say poor drop rates are much bigger issue we have. Lack of content is a problem. The fact that we get one dungeon every 4-5 months and devs are expecting us to have "fun" running it day in day out for this period.
Campaigns are bad. And by "bad" I mean the amount of campaigns you have to complete.
After all, I think class balance is not something we should even think about. I think that people yell about balance or nerfs (lol) are the ones who want every single class to deal the exact amount of damage, heal for the same value, buff the same value and tank the same amount of damage.
Hey, I have a balancing idea. Let's just leave one class, so that will make everyone happy.
By the way - point me online game with balance please. I'm not saying there isn't one but I haven't seen one yet.
I think class balance is a myth that people are repeating one after another so often that they actually belived that this is the cure for every flaw this game has. I actually don't care about class balance. If my GF or HR would be nerfed to ground I would still play them cause it's fun. And no, I don't play dps GF -just asuming that after my post will scream "DPS GF UNBALANCED!!!!!1111oneone". Pure tank/buffer here.
I would say poor drop rates are much bigger issue we have. Lack of content is a problem. The fact that we get one dungeon every 4-5 months and devs are expecting us to have "fun" running it day in day out for this period.
Campaigns are bad. And by "bad" I mean the amount of campaigns you have to complete.
After all, I think class balance is not something we should even think about. I think that people yell about balance or nerfs (lol) are the ones who want every single class to deal the exact amount of damage, heal for the same value, buff the same value and tank the same amount of damage.
Hey, I have a balancing idea. Let's just leave one class, so that will make everyone happy.
By the way - point me online game with balance please. I'm not saying there isn't one but I haven't seen one yet.
Though much of what u said about the game are lacking of content is true, i have to disagree that class balancing should be left out. Its true too that there are no true class balance exist in most MMO but at least the gap between their performance should not be too big as of current state. Else some classes are going to be left out by the community from playing the already little content in this game has. Like u said u will still play those class cause its fun, but there wont be fun when u need to work extra effort just to play the content compare to other classes. Some class could access end game content due to their class is on demand, while other depends on luck & pity from the community to access the content. Sometime it seem impossible and frustrating for them that it seem playing other game is much better. Can't blame the community for discriminating either as some class performance are realy bad that it make the content seems harder to play. In short, class balance are equally important compare to other content.
Classbalance is needed by sure. I want to add that nerfs were definitely needed and a cure to some degree in this game, only to begin with ITF (gamebreaking) and Bubble paladin (gamebreaking), same as Puppet from warlock (needed fix/nerf), there are more to add. Same as actual temp HP buff from OP is broken, everyone knows it, some will deny it as allways
The actual situation due to powerfull buffs, leading to bufferparties whereever you go (OP-DC-DC-GF) is HAMSTER, and trivilizes content and last for too long now. As long as one class is able to triple or quadriple the damageoutput of another class this game can´t be taken serious. DO-DC, wearing a debuff enchant: 1.4 from HG, 1.2 from TI, 1.4 from BtS, 10% powerbuff+rebuff from companion debuff: 15%+10% from CG, ByS, about 10% from a plaguefire enchant, 17,5% from DG, PoD 12,5% That´s more than a x4 multiplier towards my dps, take one striker and deal the dps of 4 up to 40 (if enough buffer are on board).... Simply stupid, and allways was since I started this game.
I can play every class following the "fun aspects", but if I want to play actual content apart from etos etc. but can´t take part, it´s a low fun class imo.
One more to add, NWO PVE went a huge step downwards from my observation in mod 12/12b (PC). The community lost a huge part of player as far as I can tell, maybe some disagree, it´s pretty subjective. I assume one major reason is class monoculture to some degree. My DC can gear up and earn ultimates 10 times easier than other classes, and the fact that no striker or controller is really needed in this game is a big issue. Can´t tell why some of you stick with the current situation and negate the need of balance or downgrade of buffs (essential), it kills fun same as the game in a whole.
Post edited by schietindebux on
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demonmongerMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 3,350Arc User
> @wizardlvl80#5963 said: > I think class balance is a myth that people are repeating one after another so often that they actually belived that this is the cure for every flaw this game has. I actually don't care about class balance. If my GF or HR would be nerfed to ground I would still play them cause it's fun. And no, I don't play dps GF -just asuming that after my post will scream "DPS GF UNBALANCED!!!!!1111oneone". Pure tank/buffer here. > > I would say poor drop rates are much bigger issue we have. Lack of content is a problem. The fact that we get one dungeon every 4-5 months and devs are expecting us to have "fun" running it day in day out for this period. > > Campaigns are bad. And by "bad" I mean the amount of campaigns you have to complete. > > After all, I think class balance is not something we should even think about. I think that people yell about balance or nerfs (lol) are the ones who want every single class to deal the exact amount of damage, heal for the same value, buff the same value and tank the same amount of damage. > > Hey, I have a balancing idea. Let's just leave one class, so that will make everyone happy. > > By the way - point me online game with balance please. I'm not saying there isn't one but I haven't seen one yet.
Knight online has class balance. Renumbered online has class balance
Skills don't get nerfed. I have the same powers since 2004 there. I only left because I got sick of the banning botters 8 hours a day.
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I hate paying taxes! Why must I pay thousands of dollars in taxes when everything I buy is taxed anyways!
Class variety in times of class monoclture...hm Play more classes in a game that actually doesn't need any striker or controler? More tips to go for? Maybe i stick with my DC, GF and that OP i actually level, lol
Game is dying quickly for my 15k hr, can't get into tong since it came out ,even with debuff powers for the group like the lantern and con artist,because everyone want some other class, Xbox community is showing No Love. , Fix it arc
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demonmongerMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 3,350Arc User
> @uniquesuby03420#3299 said: > Game is dying quickly for my 15k hr, can't get into tong since it came out ,even with debuff powers for the group like the lantern and con artist,because everyone want some other class, Xbox community is showing No Love. , Fix it arc
This is due to plAyer mindsets not game failures.... when the majority of people in a game are selfish or corrupt the game can't function well.
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I hate paying taxes! Why must I pay thousands of dollars in taxes when everything I buy is taxed anyways!
No , this is due to silly buffs and disbalance. Arguing the way you do, every mmo should die quickly. I agree about the poor mindset , but a lot of those 16-17k dudes simply can´t succeed outside a max buff group and some simply want to make it fast. In my guild (guildhall lev20 since long) , there are actually less than a handfull of player active and somtimes none. A lot of striker that did not level and equip supporter classes are not seen for long now, they simply gave up. The truth is, if this company wanted to get this game back in line, they need to deal with A LOT of those megabuffs and make them 10% instead of 40%, same as they needed to readjust afterwards dungeons, boss HP, drops and more Again, as long as one supporter can easily triple the dps of another class, and those buffs stack with each other, all discussions are wasted. It took the majority of player pretty long to understand the benefit and interaction of buffs. But now there is no way back to get rid of those buffruns down to elol...they are standart.
Think about that russian team, nearly 3-hitting orcus in Tong. They did good and by that showed how rediculess this game is in terms of balance and buffs.
Post edited by schietindebux on
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demonmongerMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 3,350Arc User
That is another layer of the onion
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I hate paying taxes! Why must I pay thousands of dollars in taxes when everything I buy is taxed anyways!
To make it simple. This game has major balance issues about DC and OP being beyond everything other classes can provide towards the group. DC in terms of buffs and simultanoulsly debuffs same as mitigation. No other class actually can trivialize content same as DC can. Stand in front of that boss and forget about mechanics, that´s a DC in short. Ras Ni´s aoe attack? Cast AA the right moment and drop one DG on top of HG = immunity 2. boss? DG, HG, AS, maybe OP´s CoP on top and you are safe.
I think according to the difficulty and the incoming damage in endcontent, we need such tools by sure and every "No-DC-run" is a waste of time. But if only one or two classes got them on top of best buffs and best debuffs, a game becomes boring and breaks.
As long as "Guardians/Healers/Defenders" classes will be able to make DPS as it is + all of them have a lot of stuns, there will be no class balance.
^ This ^
Non-DPS classes being able to outperform or perform on par with actual DPS classes is unbalanced in itself (Paladins/GF's). Hell a GF can put out heavy DPS pretty much just with their "poke" move lol. Not to mention the situations where the group gets a "tank" that is actually specced for DPS lol.
Nerfing is not balancing. Nerfing is what a technician makes, if he is lazy or got no clue at all.How can you say overpowered classes? Where? When? Some example how "good" nerfs worked in the past:
- Nerf bounding stones...boundings werent never the issue. Never. The community told this hundred times and told them whats the issue is. Well...what did they do? Nerf... There are so much more examples why nerfing was never a good solution for balancing. Mostly of the time they make nerfs ingame when ppl like you claiming that this or that class is to overpowered. No proofe, no testings. Just claiming. So many ppl claiming ( like the shittpants) that GWF is totally overpowered. Thats funny bc i saw vids from orcus in tong where a GF melts him down in 7 secounds. Can anyone show me a GWF who can do that?
Balancing is really work! You have to check all circumstances. Nerf? Is just a lazy try to make some crybabys happy.
Bonding stones were OP, almost 3x stat bonus from companions with a long buff time that could be refreshed easily. Players didn't have to balance stats on their character, they could just stack a stat(s) on their companion and pretty much get it indefinitely on their character as if it were already there.
Do you think when a nerf is introduced there is no testing? That the developers just take people's word for it? Of course not.
GWF's are OP lol, they get power from defense (really), can stand in the red (unstoppable), have an insane sprint, a ranged attack AND a tank build(s) lol.
Class balance isn't simply based on one class vs another. When a particular class(s) can outperform multiple classes in multiple scenarios and or outperform/perform on par with designated classes (tank >= than actual DPS class) and or particular classes being heavily sought over other classes that's where class imbalance is and the previously mentioned exists in Neverwinter... A lot of groups would rather wait considerable amounts of time for a second DC instead of taking a DPS, the same time they spend waiting could be spent running the content (if not less).
Real DnD does not have class balance. It has class diversity.
In DnD (dice and paper) there is "specialization", the player is in control of their character's "balance" for the most part, in Neverwinter there is somewhat of specialization though players can bridge gaps between some classes with little to no penalty simply because of how the stat system, class skills, etc. works.
In DnD there are penalties if you want to move outside of your class's specialization(s). If you have a melee character and you want to cast spells it is going to cost you effectiveness in melee. If you have a ranged character (like an archer) and want to wear stronger armor it will cost you effectiveness in archery as well as movement speed, etc., etc., in other words the more you want your character to be able to do the more thinly spread they become with each addition. In Neverwinter a tank can simply stack crit to gain more DPS and not really have to sacrifice anything and still be just as effective at tanking (or "slightly" less).
As far a stats (ability score) granting more/less depending on the class that part is pretty much good but things such as power "shouldn't" increase DPS the same for ALL classes. Non-DPS classes should not get the same DPS increase as DPS classes inside queues to make it simple (so that non-DPS classes can still run content such as quests/weeklies, etc.).
Inside content if power increased DPS for DPS classes at a 1:1 ratio and non-DPS at something like a 1:4 (more or less depending on the class), defense at a 1:1 for tank classes and 1:x ratio (depending on the class), etc., etc. class/more class balance could be achieved "simply" by adjusting how much classes benefit from various stats. In other words offensive stats granting "more" to DPS classes (or just less to non-DPS classes), defensive stats should grant "more" to defensive classes (or just less to non-defensive classes) and "hybrid" classes (by design, not stat stacking) would fall somewhere in between as far as ratios.
Saw somewhere where it was stated life steal should be nerfed, why? LoL
Life steal doesn't replace healing, it's a supplement. In some situations, standing near the healer who is "usually" near the tank isn't optimal. Also sometimes players take hits and are out of range of the healer(s)... not to mention soloing. Life steal isn't what's causing class imbalance
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Saw somewhere where it was stated life steal should be nerfed, why? LoL
Life steal doesn't replace healing, it's a supplement. In some situations, standing near the healer who is "usually" near the tank isn't optimal. Also sometimes players take hits and are out of range of the healer(s)... not to mention soloing. Life steal isn't what's causing class imbalance
Hahahahahahahahahaha *deep breath* Hahahahahahahahaha! *sighs* I beg to differ. Its just ONE symptom of the overall problem of class balancing and roles. Not the only one by far and the topic of another thread.
I do agree with the OP. The meta DOES (and per the devs, IS) being looked at and hopefully it will involve a combination of boosts as well as any needed nerfs to all the classes to keep them viable for end-game group play. It would be nice if the dev team had the resources to do a comprehensive approach as opposed to a piecemeal one for a better balancing and testing. Unfortunately, they don't and have to 'balance' class balancing with content development, bug fixes and just keeping the lights on and servers running. So folks, if you main class isn't the FoTM - just wait for it. GWFs, DCs, OPs, and GFs have recieved their various cycles of boosts and nerfs during the game's life cycle and the TRs, CWs, HRs and SWs will get theirs as well. Happy New Year.
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thefabricantMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 5,248Arc User
edited December 2017
There are 5 slots in a party and 8 classes in the game. Anyone who thinks the game will ever be balanced to the point where there isn't a situation where 5 classes are not clearly better than the other 3 is deluding themselves. There will always be a best option and there will always be issues of class balance, they are never going to go away. The current meta is 1 of the more healthy ones that has existed in this games history. It is definitely healthier than the meta of mod 5. Not saying it can't be better, but its definitely not the worst.
There are 2 "solutions" to the problem that I see and neither of them involve "balancing" the classes. They just involve accepting that classes will always be imbalanced and designing around that.
Solution 1)
Once every 3 months or so deliberately nerfing some classes and buffing others, specifically deliberately choosing which classes are meta and which ones aren't. So have like a, "season of mages," then, "season of rogues," etc, where for a time, a class is meta because the devs have deliberately engineered it to be this way. There will still be whining, but everyone knows that at some point in the not so distant future their class will have a chance and so it is ok if they are out of the meta atm.
Solution 2)
Engineer classes to be good at very specific things and then make content designed only to be beat by that thing. So for example, make dungeons that heavily require control - brings back controller classes. Design single target boss fights - favour gwf/gf. Add mechanics to dungeons where some bosses are immune to lifesteal - bring back healing. The point being, you design content catered to specific classes so some classes will be better at farming some content than others. This achieves a, "balance" of sorts between classes since every class knows there is some piece of content that they can do, which they are in the meta for.
The current meta is 1 of the more healthy ones that has existed in this games history. It is definitely healthier than the meta of mod 5. Not saying it can't be better, but its definitely not the worst.
If u are talking about the double dc meta, how can it be more balance in this game history? I think its the most unbalance mod if u ask me since it involve only 1 ultimate party set up that could stomp any content effectively. Any other combination, cant even match its performance in survivability & dps and that causes the community to hand pick certain class out to match that combination. Its a mess if u ask me. It left so many class out of the game. In my opinion, the best class balance is reached when there are more than one combination which are almost equal in its performance that involved all class. In short, as long as everyone gets to play the game with the class they pick, then the class is balanced. Current meta is definately not healthy at all. In fact i feel its the worse than mod 5 since it only have 1 type of party set up that rules all. Back in mod 5, people could actualy PuG and complete the dungeon with more than one party set up.
Bonding stones were OP, almost 3x stat bonus from companions with a long buff time that could be refreshed easily. Players didn't have to balance stats on their character, they could just stack a stat(s) on their companion and pretty much get it indefinitely on their character as if it were already there.
GWF's are OP lol, they get power from defense (really), can stand in the red (unstoppable), have an insane sprint, a ranged attack AND a tank build(s) lol.
Theese two post are showing that you really got no clue at all. Sry, no offense, but thats a fact. Im tired to explain over and over again whats wrong when i read such things...im out. Thats so boring.
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thefabricantMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 5,248Arc User
The current meta is 1 of the more healthy ones that has existed in this games history. It is definitely healthier than the meta of mod 5. Not saying it can't be better, but its definitely not the worst.
If u are talking about the double dc meta, how can it be more balance in this game history? I think its the most unbalance mod if u ask me since it involve only 1 ultimate party set up that could stomp any content effectively. Any other combination, cant even match its performance in survivability & dps and that causes the community to hand pick certain class out to match that combination. Its a mess if u ask me. It left so many class out of the game. In my opinion, the best class balance is reached when there are more than one combination which are almost equal in its performance that involved all class. In short, as long as everyone gets to play the game with the class they pick, then the class is balanced. Current meta is definately not healthy at all. In fact i feel its the worse than mod 5 since it only have 1 type of party set up that rules all. Back in mod 5, people could actualy PuG and complete the dungeon with more than one party set up.
It doesn't leave so many classes out of the game. There are 4 distinct unique classes in the current meta. In the mod 5 meta, there was 1 class and 1 class only. Whether or not 3 of those 4 classes are support classes is not relevant, because if there was a 1 tank, 2 dc, 2 dps meta, then inevitably, 1 tank would be preferred over the other and so the other tank would feel left out. That is simply because at a most fundamental level, there will always be 1 tank class that is more efficient than another. Furthermore, if you are choosing dps purely based off their dps, there will always be 1 preferred dps class for the meta and so that 2 dc, 2 dps, 1 tank meta is likely to only feature 3 unique classes, not 4. The only imbalance in the 2 dc meta is the fact that there are 2 dcs and that is it. We have had far more imbalanced metas in the past.
Whether or not you could pug and finish in mo 5 was not really important, that was solely because the game was so easy at that point that even the worst players in the game could finish stuff. Was lfg asking for a specific party composition? Yes. What was the party composition? 5 CW. And that was your mod 5 meta, stacking 5 of 1 class. It isn't even possible to have a worse meta than that.
Non-DPS classes being able to outperform or perform on par with actual DPS classes is unbalanced in itself (Paladins/GF's). Hell a GF can put out heavy DPS pretty much just with their "poke" move lol. Not to mention the situations where the group gets a "tank" that is actually specced for DPS lol.
It actually makes no difference, because it is either 1 of the tank classes getting left out or 1 of the dps. Paladin and GF are 2 distinct classes, so a meta composing of both isn't (in my opinion) necessarily a bad thing and it is better than a meta that had 2 dps where both dps are the same class.
And on a final note I don't think GWFs are OP in the current meta ( and my main is a CW, not a GWF). Fastest tong runs? Not done with a GWF. Fastest boss kills? Not done with a GWF. Just because it is the most demanded dps in lfg, doesn't mean it is the best. We were running 2 dc groups, before the change to DO DC and lfg was just too slow to catch up. At the same time, lfg is behind here and there are other class combinations that work better than just taking a gwf. Lets just say they did hypothetically nerf GWF because you are so butt hurt about them, then what? Then lets hypothetically say HR replaces GWF in parties. Then what? HR is OP, nerf HR? LFG will always favour 1 class over another, it is just the way things work.
Never ecperienced a worse mod tbh and that displays in the activity of guildmember and the chat you have to suffer all day and the fact that some player in fl running underperforming classes vanished...worse then ever. A game that left out striker and controler in most cases? Lost. 4xbuff parties all day long? DC DC OP buffer dps 100% Buffparties everywhere down to elol, and there is no cure to get rid if it. Idk if everyone want to keep things as they are, but the truth is hard to deny and it is the most annoying mod from my pov. I run those supporter classes myself GF/DC and know how easy it is to get into groups. So maybe some player in forum should simply ask themselve one thing: " What if my class was underperforming and is left out 100% from endcontent all day and I read 24/7 demands for classes I do not run?"
Let´s take a newcomer, he picked the wrong class and now recognizes: " Hm there is no way back. I spend all my money and AD into this class" It takes some time to develop a healthy income ba runnnig content or invoking having several alts. Ok some are AH cracks and earn 10 mio AD a day, but the average player doesn´t. Now what to do, pay for the next class?
This selfish behaviour in this forum doesn`t correlate 100% with my experiences ingame but most player simply accepted the current state, but as far as I can tell most of them are not that happy. The major problem in this game is and allways was: "One class should not double the dps of another one" In NWO some classes are beyond x4 and that´s the core of the actual problem, no clue how to fix, only way is to give silly buffs to otherones or nerf.
@spidey#3367 I know you are the guy that simply sticks with his broken tools more than every other player, far away from objectivity and far from running any other class except one with mediocre results obviously , otherwise you would simply understand the current problems ingame... but you don´t
@thefabricant I guess we saw the meta in terms of dps from those russian guys, but that´s a setup you can´t transfer into the average groupsetup in NWO, maybe due to the lack of good dps GF or Hunter, I don´t know. So you have to accept that meta ingame differs from the meta few player are able to fullfill (1%)
It doesn't leave so many classes out of the game. There are 4 distinct unique classes in the current meta. In the mod 5 meta, there was 1 class and 1 class only. Whether or not 3 of those 4 classes are support classes is not relevant, because if there was a 1 tank, 2 dc, 2 dps meta, then inevitably, 1 tank would be preferred over the other and so the other tank would feel left out. That is simply because at a most fundamental level, there will always be 1 tank class that is more efficient than another. Furthermore, if you are choosing dps purely based off their dps, there will always be 1 preferred dps class for the meta and so that 2 dc, 2 dps, 1 tank meta is likely to only feature 3 unique classes, not 4. The only imbalance in the 2 dc meta is the fact that there are 2 dcs and that is it. We have had far more imbalanced metas in the past.
Whether or not you could pug and finish in mo 5 was not really important, that was solely because the game was so easy at that point that even the worst players in the game could finish stuff. Was lfg asking for a specific party composition? Yes. What was the party composition? 5 CW. And that was your mod 5 meta, stacking 5 of 1 class. It isn't even possible to have a worse meta than that.
Nope. Back then in mod 5, I see most people in LFG calling out for tank, dps, healer and stuff. Specific 5 cw party? Frankly i dont remember seeing it and i m sure of it. Else i wont be playing any dungeon without being a cw back then. The only thing i remember thats they call out specifically are gear score. Where as now? Everybody and their gamdma is looking for AC/DO dc, gf buff, OP & gwf. People are getting denied from playing content because of this. That is harmful and i dont see why its healthier than mod 5. In Mod 5, the 5 cw meta u spoke of is not a must therefore i wouldnt even call it a meta as its not practiced widely.
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thefabricantMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 5,248Arc User
It doesn't leave so many classes out of the game. There are 4 distinct unique classes in the current meta. In the mod 5 meta, there was 1 class and 1 class only. Whether or not 3 of those 4 classes are support classes is not relevant, because if there was a 1 tank, 2 dc, 2 dps meta, then inevitably, 1 tank would be preferred over the other and so the other tank would feel left out. That is simply because at a most fundamental level, there will always be 1 tank class that is more efficient than another. Furthermore, if you are choosing dps purely based off their dps, there will always be 1 preferred dps class for the meta and so that 2 dc, 2 dps, 1 tank meta is likely to only feature 3 unique classes, not 4. The only imbalance in the 2 dc meta is the fact that there are 2 dcs and that is it. We have had far more imbalanced metas in the past.
Whether or not you could pug and finish in mo 5 was not really important, that was solely because the game was so easy at that point that even the worst players in the game could finish stuff. Was lfg asking for a specific party composition? Yes. What was the party composition? 5 CW. And that was your mod 5 meta, stacking 5 of 1 class. It isn't even possible to have a worse meta than that.
Nope. Back then in mod 5, I see most people in LFG calling out for tank, dps, healer and stuff. Specific 5 cw party? Frankly i dont remember seeing it and i m sure of it. Else i wont be playing any dungeon without being a cw back then. The only thing i remember thats they call out specifically are gear score. Where as now? Everybody and their gamdma is looking for AC/DO dc, gf buff, OP & gwf. Why? dungeon got difficult? or because that combination outperform all? maybe both? Thats is why i say mod 5 class balance is healthier than the current one. People still able to play the content with the class they pick in mod 5.
You can be as selective as you like with your memory and it doesn't make what I am saying any less true. See that search button on the top right hand side of the forums? Type into it "nerf CW" or, "5 CW party" and see what comes up. You will see threads like this, this and this. In mod 5 I can very clearly remember, "lf4m CWs 17k+" being the lfg norm for CN and other dungeons and people saying otherwise either didn't play back then, or were living under a rock.
Lets say just to make you happy they nerfed GF, OP and DC and now a 3 dps, 1 healer, 1 tank meta was the thing. I will bet those 3 dps will all be 1 class and now you will have a meta with 5 classes complaining about not having a spot rather than 4 classes complaining. Why? Simply because 1 tank will be better than the other, so that tank will be preferred. 1 healer will be better than the other, so that healer will be preferred and 1 dps will be better than the others, so that dps will be preferred. Furthermore, if you remove all party buffs then the very moment a tank or healer is no longer required that slot will be replaced by that dps class which is better than the rest. Give it enough time and you are back to a 5 dps meta.
So yes, I will very clearly state that this is 1 of the better meta's we have had, it is not a rainbow meta, but its closer than we have been many times in the past. And to anyone who thinks they can balance the classes so that all classes are equally good I will say this: I can argue that on a chess board, the pawns closer to the center on a new game are better than the pawns closer to the sides, purely because they hold a more tactically important position. That is the only property differentiating the pawns and yet you can still say 1 is better than the other even if they are identical in all other aspects. Good luck balancing the classes. 1 will always be better than the other, even if it is just due to something like faster animation times.
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I still miss the old CN. CC had a place and it was really fun with singularity + shield and repel. It actually took some skill and timing to get it right and it wasnt all about DPS all the time. They should bring back some of that, like pushing enemies off the cliff
I think they need to re-arrange the classes so they actually do what they are ment to do. Tank shall tank and not DPS. CW shall control and not DPS etc and then create content where u actually need most of these so no class is leftout. You shouldnt be able to run a dungeon without a tank, a healer, a DPS and controller. They should all be needed. I wouldnt have a problem with each class being able to do more than one of these things, like CW can control and DPS but not both at once and if you pick a DPS CW, then you need another class or another CW that has to do the controlling. And we have loadouts so it would be easy to run different setups.
But I wouldnd say there is 48 styles of play since 40 of them or so are not even close to be viable.
▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ ▇ █ Gankdalf The Icehole █ ▇ ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Most TR´s also would disagree I guess, following that actual discussions.
I can´t even consider a dps-GF as meta, if I take into account , that >99% of all those SM-GF can´t stand vs my warlock in terms of dps, but the majority of all similar geared GWF´s can, and one out of 1000 GF´s is capable to transfer crazy numbers inside a preset group, and only inside that group.
All depends on how you define meta.
If you talk about warlock itself in terms of focus-dps, the meta would be a broken setup, running a Soulbinder-fury, with a Feytouched enchant, spamming Soulscorch on top of a "Non-WAI" daily.
- Nerf bounding stones...boundings werent never the issue. Never. The community told this hundred times and told them whats the issue is. Well...what did they do? Nerf...
- Nerf SE, cuzz its to strong in PVP....they did it and SE was useless after that nerf in PVE. They never changed it
- Nerf singularity. Do you really think they nerfed singularity bc it was to strong? Well...if you find a bug ingame and you fix it with a nerf from a specific class? Sry...i dont get it.
- Why did they nerf ALL CC classes? Why do we have so many dungeons with CC immune mobs? I call this a nerf too. Why do we have CC classes,but they can CC any mob??
There are so much more examples why nerfing was never a good solution for balancing. Mostly of the time they make nerfs ingame when ppl like you claiming that this or that class is to overpowered. No proofe, no testings. Just claiming.
So many ppl claiming ( like the shittpants) that GWF is totally overpowered. Thats funny bc i saw vids from orcus in tong where a GF melts him down in 7 secounds. Can anyone show me a GWF who can do that?
Balancing is really work! You have to check all circumstances. Nerf? Is just a lazy try to make some crybabys happy.
I would say poor drop rates are much bigger issue we have. Lack of content is a problem. The fact that we get one dungeon every 4-5 months and devs are expecting us to have "fun" running it day in day out for this period.
Campaigns are bad. And by "bad" I mean the amount of campaigns you have to complete.
After all, I think class balance is not something we should even think about. I think that people yell about balance or nerfs (lol) are the ones who want every single class to deal the exact amount of damage, heal for the same value, buff the same value and tank the same amount of damage.
Hey, I have a balancing idea. Let's just leave one class, so that will make everyone happy.
By the way - point me online game with balance please. I'm not saying there isn't one but I haven't seen one yet.
I want to add that nerfs were definitely needed and a cure to some degree in this game, only to begin with ITF (gamebreaking) and Bubble paladin (gamebreaking), same as Puppet from warlock (needed fix/nerf), there are more to add.
Same as actual temp HP buff from OP is broken, everyone knows it, some will deny it as allways
The actual situation due to powerfull buffs, leading to bufferparties whereever you go (OP-DC-DC-GF) is HAMSTER, and trivilizes content and last for too long now.
As long as one class is able to triple or quadriple the damageoutput of another class this game can´t be taken serious.
DO-DC, wearing a debuff enchant:
1.4 from HG, 1.2 from TI, 1.4 from BtS, 10% powerbuff+rebuff from companion
debuff: 15%+10% from CG, ByS, about 10% from a plaguefire enchant, 17,5% from DG, PoD 12,5%
That´s more than a x4 multiplier towards my dps, take one striker and deal the dps of 4 up to 40 (if enough buffer are on board)....
Simply stupid, and allways was since I started this game.
I can play every class following the "fun aspects", but if I want to play actual content apart from etos etc. but can´t take part, it´s a low fun class imo.
One more to add, NWO PVE went a huge step downwards from my observation in mod 12/12b (PC).
The community lost a huge part of player as far as I can tell, maybe some disagree, it´s pretty subjective.
I assume one major reason is class monoculture to some degree. My DC can gear up and earn ultimates 10 times easier than other classes, and the fact that no striker or controller is really needed in this game is a big issue.
Can´t tell why some of you stick with the current situation and negate the need of balance or downgrade of buffs (essential), it kills fun same as the game in a whole.
> I think class balance is a myth that people are repeating one after another so often that they actually belived that this is the cure for every flaw this game has. I actually don't care about class balance. If my GF or HR would be nerfed to ground I would still play them cause it's fun. And no, I don't play dps GF -just asuming that after my post will scream "DPS GF UNBALANCED!!!!!1111oneone". Pure tank/buffer here.
>
> I would say poor drop rates are much bigger issue we have. Lack of content is a problem. The fact that we get one dungeon every 4-5 months and devs are expecting us to have "fun" running it day in day out for this period.
>
> Campaigns are bad. And by "bad" I mean the amount of campaigns you have to complete.
>
> After all, I think class balance is not something we should even think about. I think that people yell about balance or nerfs (lol) are the ones who want every single class to deal the exact amount of damage, heal for the same value, buff the same value and tank the same amount of damage.
>
> Hey, I have a balancing idea. Let's just leave one class, so that will make everyone happy.
>
> By the way - point me online game with balance please. I'm not saying there isn't one but I haven't seen one yet.
Knight online has class balance.
Renumbered online has class balance
Skills don't get nerfed. I have the same powers since 2004 there. I only left because I got sick of the banning botters 8 hours a day.
It has class diversity.
Play more than one class.
Play more classes in a game that actually doesn't need any striker or controler?
More tips to go for?
Maybe i stick with my DC, GF and that OP i actually level, lol
> Game is dying quickly for my 15k hr, can't get into tong since it came out ,even with debuff powers for the group like the lantern and con artist,because everyone want some other class, Xbox community is showing No Love. , Fix it arc
This is due to plAyer mindsets not game failures.... when the majority of people in a game are selfish or corrupt the game can't function well.
I agree about the poor mindset , but a lot of those 16-17k dudes simply can´t succeed outside a max buff group and some simply want to make it fast.
In my guild (guildhall lev20 since long) , there are actually less than a handfull of player active and somtimes none. A lot of striker that did not level and equip supporter classes are not seen for long now, they simply gave up.
The truth is, if this company wanted to get this game back in line, they need to deal with A LOT of those megabuffs and make them 10% instead of 40%, same as they needed to readjust afterwards dungeons, boss HP, drops and more
Again, as long as one supporter can easily triple the dps of another class, and those buffs stack with each other, all discussions are wasted.
It took the majority of player pretty long to understand the benefit and interaction of buffs.
But now there is no way back to get rid of those buffruns down to elol...they are standart.
Think about that russian team, nearly 3-hitting orcus in Tong. They did good and by that showed how rediculess this game is in terms of balance and buffs.
DC in terms of buffs and simultanoulsly debuffs same as mitigation.
No other class actually can trivialize content same as DC can.
Stand in front of that boss and forget about mechanics, that´s a DC in short.
Ras Ni´s aoe attack? Cast AA the right moment and drop one DG on top of HG = immunity
2. boss? DG, HG, AS, maybe OP´s CoP on top and you are safe.
I think according to the difficulty and the incoming damage in endcontent, we need such tools by sure and every "No-DC-run" is a waste of time.
But if only one or two classes got them on top of best buffs and best debuffs, a game becomes boring and breaks.
Then everybody can start crying that they can’t complete any content lol
Non-DPS classes being able to outperform or perform on par with actual DPS classes is unbalanced in itself (Paladins/GF's). Hell a GF can put out heavy DPS pretty much just with their "poke" move lol. Not to mention the situations where the group gets a "tank" that is actually specced for DPS lol. A few examples if you would please... Bonding stones were OP, almost 3x stat bonus from companions with a long buff time that could be refreshed easily. Players didn't have to balance stats on their character, they could just stack a stat(s) on their companion and pretty much get it indefinitely on their character as if it were already there.
Do you think when a nerf is introduced there is no testing? That the developers just take people's word for it? Of course not.
GWF's are OP lol, they get power from defense (really), can stand in the red (unstoppable), have an insane sprint, a ranged attack AND a tank build(s) lol.
Class balance isn't simply based on one class vs another. When a particular class(s) can outperform multiple classes in multiple scenarios and or outperform/perform on par with designated classes (tank >= than actual DPS class) and or particular classes being heavily sought over other classes that's where class imbalance is and the previously mentioned exists in Neverwinter... A lot of groups would rather wait considerable amounts of time for a second DC instead of taking a DPS, the same time they spend waiting could be spent running the content (if not less). In DnD (dice and paper) there is "specialization", the player is in control of their character's "balance" for the most part, in Neverwinter there is somewhat of specialization though players can bridge gaps between some classes with little to no penalty simply because of how the stat system, class skills, etc. works.
In DnD there are penalties if you want to move outside of your class's specialization(s). If you have a melee character and you want to cast spells it is going to cost you effectiveness in melee. If you have a ranged character (like an archer) and want to wear stronger armor it will cost you effectiveness in archery as well as movement speed, etc., etc., in other words the more you want your character to be able to do the more thinly spread they become with each addition. In Neverwinter a tank can simply stack crit to gain more DPS and not really have to sacrifice anything and still be just as effective at tanking (or "slightly" less).
As far a stats (ability score) granting more/less depending on the class that part is pretty much good but things such as power "shouldn't" increase DPS the same for ALL classes. Non-DPS classes should not get the same DPS increase as DPS classes inside queues to make it simple (so that non-DPS classes can still run content such as quests/weeklies, etc.).
Inside content if power increased DPS for DPS classes at a 1:1 ratio and non-DPS at something like a 1:4 (more or less depending on the class), defense at a 1:1 for tank classes and 1:x ratio (depending on the class), etc., etc. class/more class balance could be achieved "simply" by adjusting how much classes benefit from various stats. In other words offensive stats granting "more" to DPS classes (or just less to non-DPS classes), defensive stats should grant "more" to defensive classes (or just less to non-defensive classes) and "hybrid" classes (by design, not stat stacking) would fall somewhere in between as far as ratios.
Saw somewhere where it was stated life steal should be nerfed, why? LoL
Life steal doesn't replace healing, it's a supplement. In some situations, standing near the healer who is "usually" near the tank isn't optimal. Also sometimes players take hits and are out of range of the healer(s)... not to mention soloing. Life steal isn't what's causing class imbalance
“There are changes that can be made that don’t require coding...” - TriNitY
"No amount of coding will change human behavior" - TriNitY
Ongoing Issue: Legitmate Players Banned for Botting (Console) and the Future for "Dedicated" Players
Suggestions: (Implemented) \/\/ Rearrange Character on character Select Screen
I do agree with the OP. The meta DOES (and per the devs, IS) being looked at and hopefully it will involve a combination of boosts as well as any needed nerfs to all the classes to keep them viable for end-game group play. It would be nice if the dev team had the resources to do a comprehensive approach as opposed to a piecemeal one for a better balancing and testing. Unfortunately, they don't and have to 'balance' class balancing with content development, bug fixes and just keeping the lights on and servers running. So folks, if you main class isn't the FoTM - just wait for it. GWFs, DCs, OPs, and GFs have recieved their various cycles of boosts and nerfs during the game's life cycle and the TRs, CWs, HRs and SWs will get theirs as well. Happy New Year.
House Miliskeera in exile (NW)
Sereska Miliskeera, Lvl 70 OP - Devotion (Just.)/Protection (Just.)
Shizlee Miliskeera, Lvl 70 DC - Divine Oracle (Right.)/Anoited Champion (Faith.)
Finithey Miliskeera, Lvl 70 HR - Stormwarden (Combat)/Pathfinder (Trapper)
Maya Sik-Miliskeera, Lvl 70 CW - Spellstorm
Irae Sik-Miliskeera, Lvl 70 TR - Master Inflitrator
Member - Houseclan t'Charvon (STO)
Shiarrael e'Tal'Aura t'Charvon, LvL 60, Rom Sci
S'aana ir'Virinat t'Charvon, Lvl 60, Rom Eng
T'Lyra, LvL 60, Fed, Vul Sci
Ta'el, Lvl 60, Rom Tac
There are 2 "solutions" to the problem that I see and neither of them involve "balancing" the classes. They just involve accepting that classes will always be imbalanced and designing around that.
Solution 1)
Once every 3 months or so deliberately nerfing some classes and buffing others, specifically deliberately choosing which classes are meta and which ones aren't. So have like a, "season of mages," then, "season of rogues," etc, where for a time, a class is meta because the devs have deliberately engineered it to be this way. There will still be whining, but everyone knows that at some point in the not so distant future their class will have a chance and so it is ok if they are out of the meta atm.
Solution 2)
Engineer classes to be good at very specific things and then make content designed only to be beat by that thing. So for example, make dungeons that heavily require control - brings back controller classes. Design single target boss fights - favour gwf/gf. Add mechanics to dungeons where some bosses are immune to lifesteal - bring back healing. The point being, you design content catered to specific classes so some classes will be better at farming some content than others. This achieves a, "balance" of sorts between classes since every class knows there is some piece of content that they can do, which they are in the meta for.
Whether or not you could pug and finish in mo 5 was not really important, that was solely because the game was so easy at that point that even the worst players in the game could finish stuff. Was lfg asking for a specific party composition? Yes. What was the party composition? 5 CW. And that was your mod 5 meta, stacking 5 of 1 class. It isn't even possible to have a worse meta than that. It actually makes no difference, because it is either 1 of the tank classes getting left out or 1 of the dps. Paladin and GF are 2 distinct classes, so a meta composing of both isn't (in my opinion) necessarily a bad thing and it is better than a meta that had 2 dps where both dps are the same class.
And on a final note I don't think GWFs are OP in the current meta ( and my main is a CW, not a GWF). Fastest tong runs? Not done with a GWF. Fastest boss kills? Not done with a GWF. Just because it is the most demanded dps in lfg, doesn't mean it is the best. We were running 2 dc groups, before the change to DO DC and lfg was just too slow to catch up. At the same time, lfg is behind here and there are other class combinations that work better than just taking a gwf. Lets just say they did hypothetically nerf GWF because you are so butt hurt about them, then what? Then lets hypothetically say HR replaces GWF in parties. Then what? HR is OP, nerf HR? LFG will always favour 1 class over another, it is just the way things work.
A game that left out striker and controler in most cases? Lost.
4xbuff parties all day long? DC DC OP buffer dps 100%
Buffparties everywhere down to elol, and there is no cure to get rid if it.
Idk if everyone want to keep things as they are, but the truth is hard to deny and it is the most annoying mod from my pov.
I run those supporter classes myself GF/DC and know how easy it is to get into groups.
So maybe some player in forum should simply ask themselve one thing: " What if my class was underperforming and is left out 100% from endcontent all day and I read 24/7 demands for classes I do not run?"
Let´s take a newcomer, he picked the wrong class and now recognizes: " Hm there is no way back. I spend all my money and AD into this class"
It takes some time to develop a healthy income ba runnnig content or invoking having several alts.
Ok some are AH cracks and earn 10 mio AD a day, but the average player doesn´t.
Now what to do, pay for the next class?
This selfish behaviour in this forum doesn`t correlate 100% with my experiences ingame but most player simply accepted the current state, but as far as I can tell most of them are not that happy.
The major problem in this game is and allways was: "One class should not double the dps of another one"
In NWO some classes are beyond x4 and that´s the core of the actual problem, no clue how to fix, only way is to give silly buffs to otherones or nerf.
@spidey#3367 I know you are the guy that simply sticks with his broken tools more than every other player, far away from objectivity and far from running any other class except one with mediocre results obviously , otherwise you would simply understand the current problems ingame... but you don´t
@thefabricant I guess we saw the meta in terms of dps from those russian guys, but that´s a setup you can´t transfer into the average groupsetup in NWO, maybe due to the lack of good dps GF or Hunter, I don´t know.
So you have to accept that meta ingame differs from the meta few player are able to fullfill (1%)
Lets say just to make you happy they nerfed GF, OP and DC and now a 3 dps, 1 healer, 1 tank meta was the thing. I will bet those 3 dps will all be 1 class and now you will have a meta with 5 classes complaining about not having a spot rather than 4 classes complaining. Why? Simply because 1 tank will be better than the other, so that tank will be preferred. 1 healer will be better than the other, so that healer will be preferred and 1 dps will be better than the others, so that dps will be preferred. Furthermore, if you remove all party buffs then the very moment a tank or healer is no longer required that slot will be replaced by that dps class which is better than the rest. Give it enough time and you are back to a 5 dps meta.
So yes, I will very clearly state that this is 1 of the better meta's we have had, it is not a rainbow meta, but its closer than we have been many times in the past. And to anyone who thinks they can balance the classes so that all classes are equally good I will say this: I can argue that on a chess board, the pawns closer to the center on a new game are better than the pawns closer to the sides, purely because they hold a more tactically important position. That is the only property differentiating the pawns and yet you can still say 1 is better than the other even if they are identical in all other aspects. Good luck balancing the classes. 1 will always be better than the other, even if it is just due to something like faster animation times.