Arguing that classes that need balance, which they do, is one thing, arguing that classes are viable is another, which is also in general true, depends on the definition of viable, and how much gear and work it needs. But arguing that every path should be viable is not realistic, when the devs can't find the time to do minor changes to a class to bring it on par to the others, in terms of ROI.
Exactly my point. Its not the community fault when class (or path) balance is a mess right now. Its developer reckless changes that makes it a mess right now. I remember archery began to decline when mod 6 remove soft cap from crit and got neglected and more problem pops out along the way. Gwf offtank ( is it IV? ) become non existance. I mean alot of those path are crippled into non viable state by developer in an unthoughful way. If they had been more careful with implementing new stuff, making sure it doesnt mess something up, and if it did, correct them before implementation. That way, they wont be needing to waste extra resources in the future to make it right again and they will have more time on focusing new content for the game. Destroying a class/path viability is not class balance. Its creating liability for the future. Regardless, these problem are still there and if the developer decide to neglect it so be it. I m tired of playing content that are dictated by fotm.
Archery decline was not because of crit, it was due to balancing (needed balancing) to split shot. When HR best playstyle is to "split shot, split shot, split shot" repeat. And get more DPS than anything and everything just splitshoting, something is wrong.
Can you get 100% crit chance now? Yes you can, I have, and many others who play DPS at end-game 100% crit chance. There is no escape from this. Does it help archery? not at all, their issue is with distance from the buffers, and no simple change will fix that.
But lets be practical and look a bit at the big picture, what classes have good paths, and what classes lacking, HR has 2 other working well paths, and specs, yes, those that are not archery. So if we want prioritize, then HR is not on the top of the list, there are SW ahead, and a bit of TR. Meanwhile picking archery and having fun in guild is one thing, but picking archery and go to public channels with it, is another.
Archery decline is partly due to crit. Back then in mod 5 no one is able to get crit as high as 70%+, everyone is bout 40-50% due to soft cap & the 25% crit froms stillness of forest. Frankly i dont care who they prioritize 1st as long things get fix. If they fix sw or tr 1st thats a good sign, because they are fixing things. But if they mess up again, i dont think things will ever gets better for a while since they are going to waste another few mod refixing stuff. For the moment i wont be playing much till they realy fix archer. I will be playing DDO where things are much more better there in terms of many things.
What everyone tells? And what facts? Again, what are you trying to prove here? (And what others trying to prove here?)
A lot of player draw a build of the game in this threat that is far away from reality and from what I read in chat (every chat) and what I hear from alliance/guildmember every day, especially striker classes. I don´t want to go into detail any more, it´s obvious. They argue that Tong is done pretty simple with every class-setup and by every class , but I don´t see any of those player on PC-plattform? Some say they run rainbow setups ( I do believe them) , but I don´t find many of those player they are outnumbered by far >95% of the community doing the other way ( I don´t blame anyone), wich limits a lot of player to take part in actual content, in case they don´t run a OP, DC, maybe GF. Press "O" type "tomb" press "return"-> watch those average setups
One DO doesn't buff x4 and the other isn't x3 and you don't get x30 just from that.
My fault, it´s x 3.27 minus debuff deminishingreturns * + **
Sure you need to apply selfbuffs and general multiplier from artifacts and mounts etc. to get to >30x multiplier, but how do you think a 54mio hit from Griffon Wrath is generated? The point is that multiplier simply break balance pretty easy and many problems about classbalance circle arround those buffs and auras, that interfere well with some classes and not that good with others.
Is it healthy? Ofc not. Could it be worse? oh yes. Was it worse already? Most definitely.
Not from my pov. Atm progress is gated by those ultimates that drop in endcontent with a pretty bad droprate, some player/classes have severe issues to get in there. I did not recognize a similar problem in former mods down mod 4, maybe I forgot. I went into old CN with gear far from BIS (no CW), I got kicked sometimes by ignorant player. You may argue double or triple CW was dominant but the relation between supporter vs striker was not that crippled, that´s pretty subjective sure. A lot of stuff was broken arround Hunter and Warlock in former mods leading to insta kills from bosses and other redicules effects, but that was not WAI (not sure about endboss in CN though)
And more so the devs already stated that this has a target on its back. So probably a general external buff change (buffs that people get from other players) like Diminished Returns with cap. And most agree that the buffs need tuning, yet there are also other ways to create diversity, like indeed bringing a carrot, 10% buff per class aura (for example), non stacking, and you got incentive to make rainbow parties.
Exactly it´s about buffs, that´s my point. I allready pointed at this in another quote towards you even though I did not read or hear about the plans devs actually got to handle it. A class that doubles to triples anotherones dps breaks the balance. Only way out is , give every other class also x2 or x3 multiplier buffs or cap those buffs.
Class A triples damage of one class, call him DO-DC Class B doubles the dps of that class, call him Paladin, not sure about the math, but AoC + powerbuffs + debuffs get you more near triple damage Class C triples it again, call him AC DC** leading towards a 3x2x3 effect= dps x 18 If those classes are above all other in terms of buffs there is a problem.
*My rightous DO debuffs: DG 17,5%, PoD 12,5%, ByS (100% uptime) and CG (near 100% uptime) together 25% = 55% (sure debuff get´s deninished) WoL powerbuffs and rebuff from companion for about 4400k+4.4k x bondings1.8 about 12k powerbuff. Selfbuffed power is maybe 60k (class dependant), thats about 20%. He buffs by using TI+HG 100% and d DG for 5% 1.2 x 1.4 x 1.05 x 1.55 x powerbuff maybe 1.2 = 3.276 If I wear a T-plague and a debuff companion it´s about 4.04 Not sure if I forgot something to list.
** my AC DC spends powerbuffs like 15%+10%+30%=55% from basepower (44k), same towards companion and back (bonds r13) 67k powerbuff (right that does not work at every encounter), let´s say that´s double dps towards an average striker, ok? 2 x eFF 1.15 x Exalt 1.125 = 2.58 ... if I would be a pro gamer I might even buff more, not sure if that´s fixed (x 2.99) My companion and my enchant will get that buffs to higher results.
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jumpingmorksMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 876Arc User
Arguing that classes that need balance, which they do, is one thing, arguing that classes are viable is another, which is also in general true, depends on the definition of viable, and how much gear and work it needs. But arguing that every path should be viable is not realistic, when the devs can't find the time to do minor changes to a class to bring it on par to the others, in terms of ROI.
Exactly my point. Its not the community fault when class (or path) balance is a mess right now. Its developer reckless changes that makes it a mess right now. I remember archery began to decline when mod 6 remove soft cap from crit and got neglected and more problem pops out along the way. Gwf offtank ( is it IV? ) become non existance. I mean alot of those path are crippled into non viable state by developer in an unthoughful way. If they had been more careful with implementing new stuff, making sure it doesnt mess something up, and if it did, correct them before implementation. That way, they wont be needing to waste extra resources in the future to make it right again and they will have more time on focusing new content for the game. Destroying a class/path viability is not class balance. Its creating liability for the future. Regardless, these problem are still there and if the developer decide to neglect it so be it. I m tired of playing content that are dictated by fotm.
Archery decline was not because of crit, it was due to balancing (needed balancing) to split shot. When HR best playstyle is to "split shot, split shot, split shot" repeat. And get more DPS than anything and everything just splitshoting, something is wrong.
Can you get 100% crit chance now? Yes you can, I have, and many others who play DPS at end-game 100% crit chance. There is no escape from this. Does it help archery? not at all, their issue is with distance from the buffers, and no simple change will fix that.
But lets be practical and look a bit at the big picture, what classes have good paths, and what classes lacking, HR has 2 other working well paths, and specs, yes, those that are not archery. So if we want prioritize, then HR is not on the top of the list, there are SW ahead, and a bit of TR. Meanwhile picking archery and having fun in guild is one thing, but picking archery and go to public channels with it, is another.
Archery decline is partly due to crit. Back then in mod 5 no one is able to get crit as high as 70%+, everyone is bout 40-50% due to soft cap & the 25% crit froms stillness of forest. Frankly i dont care who they prioritize 1st as long things get fix. If they fix sw or tr 1st thats a good sign, because they are fixing things. But if they mess up again, i dont think things will ever gets better for a while since they are going to waste another few mod refixing stuff. For the moment i wont be playing much till they realy fix archer. I will be playing DDO where things are much more better there in terms of many things.
Bye.
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micky1p00Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 3,594Arc User
A lot of player draw a build of the game in this threat that is far away from reality and from what I read in chat (every chat) and what I hear from alliance/guildmember every day, especially striker classes. I don´t want to go into detail any more, it´s obvious. They argue that Tong is done pretty simple with every class-setup and by every class , but I don´t see any of those player on PC-plattform? Some say they run rainbow setups ( I do believe them) , but I don´t find many of those player they are outnumbered by far >95% of the community doing the other way ( I don´t blame anyone), wich limits a lot of player to take part in actual content, in case they don´t run a OP, DC, maybe GF. Press "O" type "tomb" press "return"-> watch those average setups
Again, what are you trying so prove? That the meta limits players? I don't see argument that you are wrong. It's a fact that asking for one GWF (rightfully or not) for the 1 DPS slot is very bad for the game. When DPS is the widest portion of the population, is an issue.
Versatility is how you look at it, if you look per class, it's better now than it was at mod4, then you had 4 CW + 1tank 2 classes per run. Though back then everyone wanted to be a wizard when they grow up....
Now you have 4 classes per run, the issue now is that in percent of population, that's 1 DPS slot to lets say 80% of the player base (just assumption, no real numbers here), because most like to DPS and gearing support was nasty business, still is if you are coming from DPS. So yes, a lot left out, but your O-> search, is flawed, it doesn't show the numbers as percent of the population. As I've pointed out, if you have only 10 PvE TRs, and 1k GWFs having 1 TR in tomb is more than 10 GWFs in terms of diversity.
BTW, while we all have our expiriance and our surroundings, it's also our bubbles, I don't think that your alliance is a good indicator for the player-base, I was in it, long ago. Not that it contradicts that there is a general issue. BTW, at mod4, CN runs were 1mil per run usually (for group) and people split the revenue so everyone get a share.
Just for example, I assure you, that every run that I did (except maybe 1 when I've played DC) was not meta in terms of DPS. That what happens when you don't main the FOTM DPS....
About all the math part: 1. Don't mix in self buffs, those are inner class balance. If you have a feat that increases your damage, it has nothing to do with external buffs. Another class can have the same thing as not selff buff but just increase on the base damage or power coefficient.
2. Debuffs are capped, please don't mix those in randomly, DCs while do debuff, their advantage is a buffer not debuffer, MoF is a debuffer, on a large scale. And everyone can wear enchants and bring sellswords. Having a good debuff composition is not balance issue, it's being smart, some will bring it, others will not.
The GF issues is completely separate, and it's about 2 GFs interaction, regular (DC) buffs affecting everyone more or less the same, you can have crazy IBS, crazy Lashing, crazy whatever. Yes, some classes have more synergy with power share, but direct damage buffs are equal, the issue is that not all classes scale the same with gear. And inherently not all classes are equal. That inequality is just more visible with more buffs, bigger numbers, it's not X did 100mil Y did 90, meh 10mil difference. It will be it's 500mil and 450mil and OMG 50mil difference, regardless that it's the same 10%. (numbers are for example only)
A lot of player draw a build of the game in this threat that is far away from reality and from what I read in chat (every chat) and what I hear from alliance/guildmember every day, especially striker classes. I don´t want to go into detail any more, it´s obvious. They argue that Tong is done pretty simple with every class-setup and by every class , but I don´t see any of those player on PC-plattform? Some say they run rainbow setups ( I do believe them) , but I don´t find many of those player they are outnumbered by far >95% of the community doing the other way ( I don´t blame anyone), wich limits a lot of player to take part in actual content, in case they don´t run a OP, DC, maybe GF. Press "O" type "tomb" press "return"-> watch those average setups
Again, what are you trying so prove? That the meta limits players? I don't see argument that you are wrong. It's a fact that asking for one GWF (rightfully or not) for the 1 DPS slot is very bad for the game. When DPS is the widest portion of the population, is an issue.
Versatility is how you look at it, if you look per class, it's better now than it was at mod4, then you had 4 CW + 1tank 2 classes per run. Though back then everyone wanted to be a wizard when they grow up....
Now you have 4 classes per run, the issue now is that in percent of population, that's 1 DPS slot to lets say 80% of the player base (just assumption, no real numbers here), because most like to DPS and gearing support was nasty business, still is if you are coming from DPS. So yes, a lot left out, but your O-> search, is flawed, it doesn't show the numbers as percent of the population. As I've pointed out, if you have only 10 PvE TRs, and 1k GWFs having 1 TR in tomb is more than 10 GWFs in terms of diversity.
BTW, while we all have our expiriance and our surroundings, it's also our bubbles, I don't think that your alliance is a good indicator for the player-base, I was in it, long ago. Not that it contradicts that there is a general issue. BTW, at mod4, CN runs were 1mil per run usually (for group) and people split the revenue so everyone get a share.
Just for example, I assure you, that every run that I did (except maybe 1 when I've played DC) was not meta in terms of DPS. That what happens when you don't main the FOTM DPS....
About all the math part: 1. Don't mix in self buffs, those are inner class balance. If you have a feat that increases your damage, it has nothing to do with external buffs. Another class can have the same thing as not selff buff but just increase on the base damage or power coefficient.
2. Debuffs are capped, please don't mix those in randomly, DCs while do debuff, their advantage is a buffer not debuffer, MoF is a debuffer, on a large scale. And everyone can wear enchants and bring sellswords. Having a good debuff composition is not balance issue, it's being smart, some will bring it, others will not.
The GF issues is completely separate, and it's about 2 GFs interaction, regular (DC) buffs affecting everyone more or less the same, you can have crazy IBS, crazy Lashing, crazy whatever. Yes, some classes have more synergy with power share, but direct damage buffs are equal, the issue is that not all classes scale the same with gear. And inherently not all classes are equal. That inequality is just more visible with more buffs, bigger numbers, it's not X did 100mil Y did 90, meh 10mil difference. It will be it's 500mil and 450mil and OMG 50mil difference, regardless that it's the same 10%. (numbers are for example only)
Wow, thx for those sheets But that´s near the same multiplier I posted for my DC, except that missing deminishing returns (that sheet doesn´t itself) and the fact that I did not notice that ByS stacks but that equals out with that 1.4 I gave towards BtS, and I pretended that AC buffs for more power like 2.0 ( if perfect positioning..happens once a year) Btw I though WoL stacks, but doesn´t lead to a neverending slope? If so DO´s powerbuff is missing.
Case 2: Basedamage multiplied by >30 if OP, DC, DC and CW are on board. No enchants and no artifacts etc. involved. After DR that will be like 3073% /1.785 x 1.44 = 2553% https://www.desmos.com/calculator/k6dbonvo5y ....thx, mhh whoever did that graf If selfbuffs kick in GF and GWF go nuts. With Knights Challenge you get that damage x 60, Crystal on top x 90 for 10 seconds. But that´s not my point anyway and I gonna quit math for now. My point in a higher sense is, that I do not like to keep player/classes outside of content.
PS: in this calculation one missing stack of bane will cause the loss of two striker pre buffs
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jumpingmorksMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 876Arc User
edited January 2018
First video, why is the GF avoiding mobs? Why is there an OP in the group?
Second Video, when you combine the populations of the 2 PC servers, Xbox and PS4 servers, how many GF's used that build? I'll tell you, 1.
1 Person out of every GF playing the game on EVERY platform used that build.
Every class has a mechanic and synergy that when found will trivialise content, he found one.
EDIT, just noticed, 1st video has 2 GF's and 1 OP, second video has 1 GF and OP. I can hardly see anything in those videos, in the first one, at the end of the run, what is the damage difference between the 2 GF's?
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jumpingmorksMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 876Arc User
If you think a DPS GF with similar or on par damage with a GWF (aka the DPS you're impying) can also tank an end game dungeon with little to no penalty as you so nicely put it, I'll reiterate, you've got to be smoking something.
Here's a thought, show me a video with that DPS GF running solo DPS and Tank in TONG, no other tanks, no changing loadouts. I'll assume he's a really good player and can manage it, once you've posted that video, hypothesize on how many players not only have the time/money to invest in making a character like that but ALSO have the skill to do the same.
So for example, if he's the only that can do it (kudos to him) how reasonable would it be to base a set of nerfs on an entire community based on the skill and investment of one player?
If however, that investment is minimal and little to no skill is needed then I can't imagine anyone disagreeing with a wholesale nerf on an entire community.
And before you think, oh just another upset GF trying to protect his pedestal, bear in mind these
As long as you keep each class competetive with each other, 'players' will compete. GF's for example, also my favourite class, folks don't usually roll GF's in the vain hope they can be like the 1% that can do enough damage that the entire community wants the class nerfed into the ground. I rolled a GF so I could be hard to kill, but right now all I am is a sub GWF with a shield.
Every class should have it's strengths and weaknesses, I never really understood why CW's and SW's who lack Unstoppable and other feats/encounters that increase their survivability by a large margin should be passed over in TONG runs for a GWF, if they lack defense they should be compensated with increased damage.
Same with TR, they could be amazing boss killers and burst kings with their burst damage linked squarely to their Stealth ability.
Am not saying these examples are THE answer, nor ever AN answer just an example of what can happen when you remove competitivenes from comparing classes which is like comparing apples and oranges, it's a subjective argument and you will only yield subjective answers and opinions, none of which will answer the issues we have right now.
GF's were given a 20% base damage increase around mod 6 (and very much welcomed too by those who liked to run Tact/Prot) that was not changed when loadouts appeared, it appears logical to me that the previous buff was overlooked or forgotten when they planned/implemented loadouts.
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jumpingmorksMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 876Arc User
DPS GF can also tank an end game dungeon. It is to the credit of DO DC and AC DC. I know it's tough, but just bear with it.
Ras Nsi can be defeated without a tank at all down to buffs/debuffs and insane DPS, but that has completely nothing to do with the assertion that a DPS GF can do anything a Tank GF can do with little to no penalty and is also completely the wrong reason to base a class rebalance on.
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jumpingmorksMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 876Arc User
Seperating PvP from PvE
I've long been a supporter of seperating PvP from PvE, one suggestion I have is to replace one Pargon Tree in each class with a purely PvP tree. You get the same amount of feat points to place in your PvE tree as you do your PvP tree, but in PvE only PvE tree is used and in PvP only the PvP tree is used.
So for example, GF's could have their Conc Paragon Tree replaced by a purely PvP one, GWF's have their Instigator Tree replace by a PvP tree and so on.
I'd also like to see Encounters have a PvP side and a PvE side, I am completely fedup with balance changes based on a PvP perspective change a PvE element.
"DPS GF can also tank an end game dungeon. It is to the credit of DO DC and AC DC."
So?I bet a Sent GWF ,with DO and AC ,can tank any content...so? What is your point?
"You see bond of virtue? OP tank lol"
A properly specced Dev OP can have SoF near 80%-100% uptime. ofcourse most go for powershare,but if you slot silvery in comp gear you can achieve that.So ,in a party setup,a Deev OP helps in tanking ALOT.It is just that the OP community has no clue and hunts obscure themes like Junkadin,Trashadin etc... If you did not know how much a Dev Op can contribute to a party protection,then honestly you are biased ,or ill informed.
DPS GF is a WAi treee of GF since beta.Open your alt GF screen character and read Conq description.
1.Any party that takes a DPS GF instead of an equal gear GWf ,has no clue.Most of the times party will be composed of build copycats and pay to win guys,age around 18-24.Same party will ask 2 DCs for FBI ,the DCs of the party will start bitching one to each other "use FFTS ,no I will use Bots" how the hell their names are named.Like it matters .Outside ToNG ,FBI,mSP You dont need military tactics to beat a casual MMO.Common.Powercreep made any of old dungeons obsolete.
2.Most of the guys that play ranged chars,I saw your history posts,you play a SW ,have a biased perception of NW. As we say in my country "Yours is mine ,and mine is mine" "I want the dog well fed and at thew same time the whole pie for myself " etc...You turn red when a "defensive" class does damage ,but at the same time ,you want your ranged chars ,to have dodges,DR,deflect,Hp from CON,and a myriad active and reactive ways to mitigate damage. You want Gf damage nerfed?You want to be a "tank"? Fine bro.I want all squishy chars to have 1/3 of Gfs HP.Simple as that. i also want deflect/dodges to be gone and all strikers to run with a healing companion.Fair things.
3.I honestly dont want to offend anyone...but i cannot see any of the video of GFs posted.Boring as hell,2 DCs and an OP trivialize the content ,Gfs just run through mobs and you coming to the forums to prove what?What is your point?What you want to do? The DCs and the OPs are the problem.
4.If you admire DPS GFS so much make one,or even better choose onein your ToNG runs.But last time i checked i see at 90% of the cases GWFs.
5.A DPS Gf cannot solo tank -with out 2 DCS- endgame content.If he does ,show me a video of doing it. If one to a million that happens it will be again a testimony to the abysmall overbuffed state of the DC class.Not the other way around.
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jumpingmorksMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 876Arc User
Just like to point out that my 15k OP has 100% uptime on SoF, Radiants in every offense slot, Artificiers Persuasion.
I recently removed the Legacy Flail Snail Equip Power in favor of 2k power, his base Power is now 40k.
I tried really REALLY hard to get Divine Protector to 100% uptime (that Snail wasn't cheap), and in very rare circumstances I can do it, but 99/100 I cannot, takes me on average about 8 seconds to go from zero AP to full AP.
Bane Reduces damage by up to 30%, DP 60%, Circle of Power adds 25% DR and it uses T.Feytouched for further damage mitigation.
My GF has to work a lot harder than spamming Encounters/Dailies to give any team the same level of potection.
Imo all those problems are related with current meta, wich has most dps and most mitigation at same time. If those "megabuff groups" would not be that far ahead of all other combos, there would be no discussion about a lot of stuff like dps GF´s etc. Auras like AoC work the same way lolset did, leading to even more disbalance between classes. It´s all about buffs, multiplier, powercreep, leading to the fact that some classes can run endcontent with 10k IL (DO-DC) and some don´t get in at 15k. I don´t think buffing underperfoming classes towards the level of other overperforming classes is a good solution but I can´t see an actual build what those devs plan about the current situation. Devs should pay more attention when reworking stuff or buffing classes. Weapon enchants also favour some few classes and are form no use for others. They were told in advance.
@spidey#3367 I know you are the guy that simply sticks with his broken tools more than every other player, far away from objectivity and far from running any other class except one with mediocre results obviously , otherwise you would simply understand the current problems ingame... but you don´t
Dont spread any lies about me! You dont know me. I never said anything about thats ok to use any broken thing. But i know when its a classproblem or its a ingame problem like powersharing. Everyone with a bit knowledge about this game knows its not the boundings. Its the broken powersharing. This was reported hundreds of times. I reported it too. You dont. All you do is to try to nerf all the things you dont understand. Thats your opinion, but dont tell any lies about me. You are just try to insult me and provoke me to a flamewar. Stop that nonsens and try to learn some facts about ingame issues. Thx.
@spidey#3367 I know you are the guy that simply sticks with his broken tools more than every other player, far away from objectivity and far from running any other class except one with mediocre results obviously , otherwise you would simply understand the current problems ingame... but you don´t
Dont spread any lies about me! You dont know me. I never said anything about thats ok to use any broken thing. But i know when its a classproblem or its a ingame problem like powersharing. Everyone with a bit knowledge about this game knows its not the boundings. Its the broken powersharing. This was reported hundreds of times. I reported it too. You dont. All you do is to try to nerf all the things you dont understand. Thats your opinion, but dont tell any lies about me. You are just try to insult me and provoke me to a flamewar. Stop that nonsens and try to learn some facts about ingame issues. Thx.
Sry , I only respond towards your allways insulting and ranting kind to discuss thing. Don´t get personal and I won´t too. Simple as that. My opinion is my opinion and if I point at classes that multiply dps x3+ I can do so. I also can say that this is the core of problems in terms of disbalance ingame ( I guess I did so) and it is not only about powersharing, wich is let´s say 1/3 of all that stacking stuff. So if I say class A is buffing too much you come along and say "Stop bitching towards other classes, you allways want nerfs..." I play that class myself, yesterday 5x Tong up and down. On the other side everyone agrees that powercreep and buffs are out of order in this game, at least some said so in a sidenote. So all know what is wrong, I name it and the direct answer is "stop pointing at it, maybe devs could nerf something" You are upset 100% , allways, get personal 100% allways, if things differ from your opinion, that´s all.
Btw I did so with every class I play myself, point at broken/overperforming stuff or point at underperforming stuff, allways, because I think it´s the only way to get balance into something that is out of balance. And no I do not think that classes needs a nerf in general, I think at first buffs and maybe things like AoC (lolset-effect) needs to be looked at before even touching any classes. If devs can handle open multiplying buffs a bit like they allready did towards debuffs and broken things like ITF , maybe only small balances are needed. I also don´t think that GWF is the only class that deals high dps, it´s a class that can deal high ammounts easier than other and by that is dominant atm. GF can too (very few, know 3) , Hunter can, TR can (very few, met about 3) and Spellstorm CW definitely also, I know at least 3 CW´s that might beat most GWF´s. It is simply more deifficult to pull that dps out of those classes. But I won´t stop pointing at stuff (concernig the actual 100% groupsetup in this game due to buffs) only because you feel insulted even you do not play that class.
My opinion is my opinion and if I point at classes that multiply dps x3+ I can do so.
A opinion is an opinion. But you named me personally and made a false statement about me. Thats not talking about opinions. Thats just insulting. BTW: Just telling that some classes can multiply the damage x3 isnt helpfull at all, if you dont know excactly why this is possible.
So if I say class A is buffing too much you come along and say "Stop bitching towards other classes, you allways want nerfs..." I play that class myself, yesterday 5x Tong up and down.
Nop. That was not what i said. This is that what you maybe read, but not what i wrote. Again a false statement. For what reason? And you are missing a important point: After the community told you that you where wrong about your GWF claims and the problem isnt the GWF, you made your statements about to much buffs. Before you made that, most of your posts where "Nerf GWF". Dont change things everyone can read.
And I won´t stop pointing at it only because you feel insulted even you do not play that class.
First of all: You can point out what ever you want. Secound: Who told you i dont play that class? Third: Its no reason to tell wrong things about me, without any quote whatsoever. You just claimed something that i never said. Be serious. Talk about opinions. Talk about facts and we can discuss it. There is no need to tell any false things and gettnig personal. I dont feel insulted if you talk about ingame issues. I felt insulted about that:
@spidey#3367 I know you are the guy that simply sticks with his broken tools more than every other player,
What broken tool? When did i say im ok with any kind of broken things in NW? There was no reason to say this. Thats not talking about different opinions. Thats just provoking a flamewar.
Sry , I only respond towards your allways insulting and ranting kind to discuss thing. Don´t get personal and I won´t too. Simple as that.
And now show me where i insulted you and said anything about your ok with broken things in NW. You can write me a PN. I dont want to derail this thread to OT.
The way buffs works, its better to stack supports than stacking dps. Changing the 2 dc is only a temporary fix at the most before ppl start running 1 dev and 1 prot. Pally instead or even 1 dc, templock,op, gf, dps in mod 13. Its always going to be an issue for group content in a 5 man party. But having both a op and a gf isnt needed, neither is 2 dc, sure it takes longer but not as much as u think. Bring the other dps more in line with one another dps wise while upping their group buffs/group benifits will help much better than nerfs and bring more variety imo.
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jumpingmorksMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 876Arc User
Imo all those problems are related with current meta, wich has most dps and most mitigation at same time. If those "megabuff groups" would not be that much easier to handle for the majority of player, there would be no discussion about a lot of stuff like dps GF´s etc. Auras like AoC work the same way lolset did, leading to even more disbalance between classes. It´s all about buffs, multiplier, powercreep, leading to the fact that some classes can run endcontent with 10k IL (DO-DC) and some don´t get in at 15k. I don´t think buffing underperfoming classes towards the level of other overperforming classes is na good solution honestly. Devs should pay more attention when reworking stuff or buffing classes.
Of course that's your opinion, because in your view dealing with every meta when it becomes an issue and using a bandaid is more important than fixing the baseline issues. Pretty soon you haven't got a game you've got a gordion knot noone can fix.
You close the 2xDC meta (am not opposed to this btw) and another meta will pop up within a week and people will be back complaining about the same thing.
Or maybe you're just content to provide solutions that help you and you alone and not the community. There is no problem with that in itself, as long as you let the devs know how the current siutation and any fix people propose will affect you personally, devs I imagine need this kind of feedback as much as any other, but please, do not tout your personal needs in the form of a panacea for all the games issues when your motivation is to help yourself first.
Left the Game due to heavy Damage Control & Missing Spanish Language
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micky1p00Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 3,594Arc User
The king is dead, long live the king. Bring double AD instead!
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jumpingmorksMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 876Arc User
I really hope UE's are kept to TONG and TONG alone, unless Cryptic bring out another end game dungeon, FBI and mSP ar no longer end game dungeons, they've been power creeeped to death.
Players should have a clear progression path, with boons, with gear and with advancement. They should always have something to aim for.
Players who have advanced so that they need UE's to advance their character and enchantments further should see TONG as a culmination of hard work to reach it and reap the reward for that work in the form of advancement.
But when you hear stories of players running TONG 20 times or more and no UE you've got to feel sorry for them, when you are getting odds like that it doesn't feel like you are advancing, it feels like you are busting your balls.
I will never understand the balancing act needed in RNG that prevents everyone from reaching fully BiS in 2 weeks and have them leave the game because they are bored, or rather, because they actually beat the game but sometimes it doesn't feel like we're being rewarded for the effort we have put into the game.
You close the 2xDC meta (am not opposed to this btw) and another meta will pop up within a week and people will be back complaining about the same thing.
No I don´t want to close only double DC. I also want to close triple to quattro supporter runs, because I think that´s what actually lead to a severe loss of geared player ingame (might be wrong, if so I apologize). I also wrote in several post that my intention is no band aid, I also pointed at the need to address stacking multiplier maybe 100 times? Actual content is not accessable for striker same way as for supporter, relation 1: 4. Even being a supporter you need >1000 runs or about 100 years of gameplay to earn those UE´s. If my class can´t even earn one of them, why should i even log in and play this game in this mod?
When double DC is closed, next meta will be case 4 and case 6 I guess, look above, the sheet @micky1p00 posted. My personal meta will be my AC/DC spamming double daily AA/HG (all in all dpsx5), not 100% though and only at some encounter. DC same as OP is set in stone in any meta, that class has nothing to fear if played correct.
Players who have advanced so that they need UE's to advance their character and enchantments further should see TONG as a culmination of hard work to reach it and reap the reward for that work in the form of advancement.
If that player runs this dungeon once a week due to current meta, and his part of "culmination of hard work" is spamming in 50 chats all day long, do you expect him to sit through this actual mod all day until he might see a light in mod 13? ( I know once a week is exaggerating)
But when you hear stories of players running TONG 20 times or more and no UE you've got to feel sorry for them, when you are getting odds like that it doesn't feel like you are advancing, it feels like you are busting your balls.
I can tell a story of >50 Tong runs without a single UE, and that´s no fairy tale
I will never understand the balancing act needed in RNG that prevents everyone from reaching fully BiS in 2 weeks and have them leave the game because they are bored, or rather, because they actually beat the game but sometimes it doesn't feel like we're being rewarded for the effort we have put into the game.
50x Tong x how many do we need, 90+? I opened a lot of boxes too, doesn´t work that way either, zero drop til now. Maybe better buy that stuff, 90 mio AD is a number some player might spend with ease... btw I don´t aim for BIS myself, simply too exhausting. Actual BIS in mod 12 is beyond most things I experienced so far. Should be interesting how much time devs calculated to earn those enchants for one character? Or do they really think I would open my purse and spend a whopping 1800 EU? No I won´t bc I am not mad, I gonna play this game 24hours a day for the next 2 years lol
Looks more like a big misconcept to me and the worst about it is the fact that depending on the class/role you pick you get access or not. And that`s why a lot of player do not log in any more I guess.
Post edited by schietindebux on
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micky1p00Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 3,594Arc User
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Some say they run rainbow setups ( I do believe them) , but I don´t find many of those player they are outnumbered by far >95% of the community doing the other way ( I don´t blame anyone), wich limits a lot of player to take part in actual content, in case they don´t run a OP, DC, maybe GF.
Press "O" type "tomb" press "return"-> watch those average setups My fault, it´s x 3.27 minus debuff deminishingreturns * + **
Sure you need to apply selfbuffs and general multiplier from artifacts and mounts etc. to get to >30x multiplier, but how do you think a 54mio hit from Griffon Wrath is generated? The point is that multiplier simply break balance pretty easy and many problems about classbalance circle arround those buffs and auras, that interfere well with some classes and not that good with others.
https://us.v-cdn.net/6025417/uploads/editor/5v/734e0spm0iaq.png" alt="" Not from my pov. Atm progress is gated by those ultimates that drop in endcontent with a pretty bad droprate, some player/classes have severe issues to get in there. I did not recognize a similar problem in former mods down mod 4, maybe I forgot.
I went into old CN with gear far from BIS (no CW), I got kicked sometimes by ignorant player. You may argue double or triple CW was dominant but the relation between supporter vs striker was not that crippled, that´s pretty subjective sure.
A lot of stuff was broken arround Hunter and Warlock in former mods leading to insta kills from bosses and other redicules effects, but that was not WAI (not sure about endboss in CN though) Exactly it´s about buffs, that´s my point. I allready pointed at this in another quote towards you even though I did not read or hear about the plans devs actually got to handle it.
A class that doubles to triples anotherones dps breaks the balance. Only way out is , give every other class also x2 or x3 multiplier buffs or cap those buffs.
Class A triples damage of one class, call him DO-DC
Class B doubles the dps of that class, call him Paladin, not sure about the math, but AoC + powerbuffs + debuffs get you more near triple damage
Class C triples it again, call him AC DC**
leading towards a 3x2x3 effect= dps x 18
If those classes are above all other in terms of buffs there is a problem.
-------------------------------------------------------------------
*My rightous DO debuffs: DG 17,5%, PoD 12,5%, ByS (100% uptime) and CG (near 100% uptime) together 25% = 55% (sure debuff get´s deninished)
WoL powerbuffs and rebuff from companion for about 4400k+4.4k x bondings1.8 about 12k powerbuff. Selfbuffed power is maybe 60k (class dependant), thats about 20%.
He buffs by using TI+HG 100% and d DG for 5%
1.2 x 1.4 x 1.05 x 1.55 x powerbuff maybe 1.2 = 3.276
If I wear a T-plague and a debuff companion it´s about 4.04
Not sure if I forgot something to list.
** my AC DC spends powerbuffs like 15%+10%+30%=55% from basepower (44k), same towards companion and back (bonds r13)
67k powerbuff (right that does not work at every encounter), let´s say that´s double dps towards an average striker, ok?
2 x eFF 1.15 x Exalt 1.125 = 2.58 ... if I would be a pro gamer I might even buff more, not sure if that´s fixed (x 2.99)
My companion and my enchant will get that buffs to higher results.
That the meta limits players? I don't see argument that you are wrong. It's a fact that asking for one GWF (rightfully or not) for the 1 DPS slot is very bad for the game. When DPS is the widest portion of the population, is an issue.
Versatility is how you look at it, if you look per class, it's better now than it was at mod4, then you had 4 CW + 1tank
2 classes per run. Though back then everyone wanted to be a wizard when they grow up....
Now you have 4 classes per run, the issue now is that in percent of population, that's 1 DPS slot to lets say 80% of the player base (just assumption, no real numbers here), because most like to DPS and gearing support was nasty business, still is if you are coming from DPS.
So yes, a lot left out, but your O-> search, is flawed, it doesn't show the numbers as percent of the population. As I've pointed out, if you have only 10 PvE TRs, and 1k GWFs having 1 TR in tomb is more than 10 GWFs in terms of diversity.
BTW, while we all have our expiriance and our surroundings, it's also our bubbles, I don't think that your alliance is a good indicator for the player-base, I was in it, long ago. Not that it contradicts that there is a general issue.
BTW, at mod4, CN runs were 1mil per run usually (for group) and people split the revenue so everyone get a share.
Just for example, I assure you, that every run that I did (except maybe 1 when I've played DC) was not meta in terms of DPS.
That what happens when you don't main the FOTM DPS....
About all the math part:
1. Don't mix in self buffs, those are inner class balance. If you have a feat that increases your damage, it has nothing to do with external buffs. Another class can have the same thing as not selff buff but just increase on the base damage or power coefficient.
2. Debuffs are capped, please don't mix those in randomly, DCs while do debuff, their advantage is a buffer not debuffer, MoF is a debuffer, on a large scale. And everyone can wear enchants and bring sellswords. Having a good debuff composition is not balance issue, it's being smart, some will bring it, others will not.
Here a composition, credits to Voodoo,
Per mitigation, mitigationPre diminished returns, those you can do here (bottom of the page):http://test.janne.coreside.com/pages/mechanics/debuff
Or you can do the entire thing here:
https://www.arcgames.com/en/forums/neverwinter#/discussion/1235593/a-calculation-sheet-to-min-max-groups
The GF issues is completely separate, and it's about 2 GFs interaction, regular (DC) buffs affecting everyone more or less the same, you can have crazy IBS, crazy Lashing, crazy whatever. Yes, some classes have more synergy with power share, but direct damage buffs are equal, the issue is that not all classes scale the same with gear.
And inherently not all classes are equal. That inequality is just more visible with more buffs, bigger numbers, it's not X did 100mil Y did 90, meh 10mil difference. It will be it's 500mil and 450mil and OMG 50mil difference, regardless that it's the same 10%. (numbers are for example only)
edit: not mitigation, diminishing returns
But that´s near the same multiplier I posted for my DC, except that missing deminishing returns (that sheet doesn´t itself) and the fact that I did not notice that ByS stacks but that equals out with that 1.4 I gave towards BtS, and I pretended that AC buffs for more power like 2.0 ( if perfect positioning..happens once a year)
Btw I though WoL stacks, but doesn´t lead to a neverending slope? If so DO´s powerbuff is missing.
Case 2: Basedamage multiplied by >30 if OP, DC, DC and CW are on board. No enchants and no artifacts etc. involved.
After DR that will be like 3073% /1.785 x 1.44 = 2553%
https://www.desmos.com/calculator/k6dbonvo5y ....thx, mhh whoever did that graf
If selfbuffs kick in GF and GWF go nuts. With Knights Challenge you get that damage x 60, Crystal on top x 90 for 10 seconds.
But that´s not my point anyway and I gonna quit math for now. My point in a higher sense is, that I do not like to keep player/classes outside of content.
PS: in this calculation one missing stack of bane will cause the loss of two striker pre buffs
Second Video, when you combine the populations of the 2 PC servers, Xbox and PS4 servers, how many GF's used that build? I'll tell you, 1.
1 Person out of every GF playing the game on EVERY platform used that build.
Every class has a mechanic and synergy that when found will trivialise content, he found one.
EDIT, just noticed, 1st video has 2 GF's and 1 OP, second video has 1 GF and OP. I can hardly see anything in those videos, in the first one, at the end of the run, what is the damage difference between the 2 GF's?
So for example, if he's the only that can do it (kudos to him) how reasonable would it be to base a set of nerfs on an entire community based on the skill and investment of one player?
If however, that investment is minimal and little to no skill is needed then I can't imagine anyone disagreeing with a wholesale nerf on an entire community.
And before you think, oh just another upset GF trying to protect his pedestal, bear in mind these
I've long been a supporter of seperating PvP from PvE, one suggestion I have is to replace one Pargon Tree in each class with a purely PvP tree. You get the same amount of feat points to place in your PvE tree as you do your PvP tree, but in PvE only PvE tree is used and in PvP only the PvP tree is used.
So for example, GF's could have their Conc Paragon Tree replaced by a purely PvP one, GWF's have their Instigator Tree replace by a PvP tree and so on.
I'd also like to see Encounters have a PvP side and a PvE side, I am completely fedup with balance changes based on a PvP perspective change a PvE element.
So?I bet a Sent GWF ,with DO and AC ,can tank any content...so? What is your point?
"You see bond of virtue? OP tank lol"
A properly specced Dev OP can have SoF near 80%-100% uptime.
ofcourse most go for powershare,but if you slot silvery in comp gear you can achieve that.So ,in a party setup,a Deev OP helps in tanking ALOT.It is just that the OP community has no clue and hunts obscure themes like Junkadin,Trashadin
etc...
If you did not know how much a Dev Op can contribute to a party protection,then honestly you are biased ,or ill informed.
DPS GF is a WAi treee of GF since beta.Open your alt GF screen character and read Conq description.
1.Any party that takes a DPS GF instead of an equal gear GWf ,has no clue.Most of the times party will be composed of build copycats and pay to win guys,age around 18-24.Same party will ask 2 DCs for FBI ,the DCs of the party will start bitching one to each other "use FFTS ,no I will use Bots" how the hell their names are named.Like it matters .Outside ToNG ,FBI,mSP You dont need military tactics to beat a casual MMO.Common.Powercreep made any of old dungeons obsolete.
2.Most of the guys that play ranged chars,I saw your history posts,you play a SW ,have a biased perception of NW.
As we say in my country "Yours is mine ,and mine is mine" "I want the dog well fed and at thew same time the whole pie for myself " etc...You turn red when a "defensive" class does damage ,but at the same time ,you want your ranged chars ,to have dodges,DR,deflect,Hp from CON,and a myriad active and reactive ways to mitigate damage.
You want Gf damage nerfed?You want to be a "tank"? Fine bro.I want all squishy chars to have 1/3 of Gfs HP.Simple as that.
i also want deflect/dodges to be gone and all strikers to run with a healing companion.Fair things.
3.I honestly dont want to offend anyone...but i cannot see any of the video of GFs posted.Boring as hell,2 DCs and an OP trivialize the content ,Gfs just run through mobs and you coming to the forums to prove what?What is your point?What you want to do?
The DCs and the OPs are the problem.
4.If you admire DPS GFS so much make one,or even better choose onein your ToNG runs.But last time i checked i see at 90% of the cases GWFs.
5.A DPS Gf cannot solo tank -with out 2 DCS- endgame content.If he does ,show me a video of doing it.
If one to a million that happens it will be again a testimony to the abysmall overbuffed state of the DC class.Not the other way around.
I recently removed the Legacy Flail Snail Equip Power in favor of 2k power, his base Power is now 40k.
I tried really REALLY hard to get Divine Protector to 100% uptime (that Snail wasn't cheap), and in very rare circumstances I can do it, but 99/100 I cannot, takes me on average about 8 seconds to go from zero AP to full AP.
Bane Reduces damage by up to 30%, DP 60%, Circle of Power adds 25% DR and it uses T.Feytouched for further damage mitigation.
My GF has to work a lot harder than spamming Encounters/Dailies to give any team the same level of potection.
If those "megabuff groups" would not be that far ahead of all other combos, there would be no discussion about a lot of stuff like dps GF´s etc.
Auras like AoC work the same way lolset did, leading to even more disbalance between classes.
It´s all about buffs, multiplier, powercreep, leading to the fact that some classes can run endcontent with 10k IL (DO-DC) and some don´t get in at 15k.
I don´t think buffing underperfoming classes towards the level of other overperforming classes is a good solution but I can´t see an actual build what those devs plan about the current situation.
Devs should pay more attention when reworking stuff or buffing classes. Weapon enchants also favour some few classes and are form no use for others. They were told in advance.
Stop, it's too much! A whole Black Pearl!
My opinion is my opinion and if I point at classes that multiply dps x3+ I can do so. I also can say that this is the core of problems in terms of disbalance ingame ( I guess I did so) and it is not only about powersharing, wich is let´s say 1/3 of all that stacking stuff.
So if I say class A is buffing too much you come along and say "Stop bitching towards other classes, you allways want nerfs..." I play that class myself, yesterday 5x Tong up and down.
On the other side everyone agrees that powercreep and buffs are out of order in this game, at least some said so in a sidenote.
So all know what is wrong, I name it and the direct answer is "stop pointing at it, maybe devs could nerf something"
You are upset 100% , allways, get personal 100% allways, if things differ from your opinion, that´s all.
Btw I did so with every class I play myself, point at broken/overperforming stuff or point at underperforming stuff, allways, because I think it´s the only way to get balance into something that is out of balance.
And no I do not think that classes needs a nerf in general, I think at first buffs and maybe things like AoC (lolset-effect) needs to be looked at before even touching any classes. If devs can handle open multiplying buffs a bit like they allready did towards debuffs and broken things like ITF , maybe only small balances are needed. I also don´t think that GWF is the only class that deals high dps, it´s a class that can deal high ammounts easier than other and by that is dominant atm.
GF can too (very few, know 3) , Hunter can, TR can (very few, met about 3) and Spellstorm CW definitely also, I know at least 3 CW´s that might beat most GWF´s. It is simply more deifficult to pull that dps out of those classes.
But I won´t stop pointing at stuff (concernig the actual 100% groupsetup in this game due to buffs) only because you feel insulted even you do not play that class.
And you are missing a important point:
After the community told you that you where wrong about your GWF claims and the problem isnt the GWF, you made your statements about to much buffs. Before you made that, most of your posts where "Nerf GWF". Dont change things everyone can read. First of all: You can point out what ever you want.
Secound: Who told you i dont play that class?
Third: Its no reason to tell wrong things about me, without any quote whatsoever. You just claimed something that i never said. Be serious. Talk about opinions. Talk about facts and we can discuss it. There is no need to tell any false things and gettnig personal. I dont feel insulted if you talk about ingame issues. I felt insulted about that: What broken tool? When did i say im ok with any kind of broken things in NW? There was no reason to say this. Thats not talking about different opinions. Thats just provoking a flamewar. And now show me where i insulted you and said anything about your ok with broken things in NW.
You can write me a PN. I dont want to derail this thread to OT.
You close the 2xDC meta (am not opposed to this btw) and another meta will pop up within a week and people will be back complaining about the same thing.
Or maybe you're just content to provide solutions that help you and you alone and not the community. There is no problem with that in itself, as long as you let the devs know how the current siutation and any fix people propose will affect you personally, devs I imagine need this kind of feedback as much as any other, but please, do not tout your personal needs in the form of a panacea for all the games issues when your motivation is to help yourself first.
Players should have a clear progression path, with boons, with gear and with advancement. They should always have something to aim for.
Players who have advanced so that they need UE's to advance their character and enchantments further should see TONG as a culmination of hard work to reach it and reap the reward for that work in the form of advancement.
But when you hear stories of players running TONG 20 times or more and no UE you've got to feel sorry for them, when you are getting odds like that it doesn't feel like you are advancing, it feels like you are busting your balls.
I will never understand the balancing act needed in RNG that prevents everyone from reaching fully BiS in 2 weeks and have them leave the game because they are bored, or rather, because they actually beat the game but sometimes it doesn't feel like we're being rewarded for the effort we have put into the game.
Actual content is not accessable for striker same way as for supporter, relation 1: 4. Even being a supporter you need >1000 runs or about 100 years of gameplay to earn those UE´s.
If my class can´t even earn one of them, why should i even log in and play this game in this mod?
When double DC is closed, next meta will be case 4 and case 6 I guess, look above, the sheet @micky1p00 posted.
My personal meta will be my AC/DC spamming double daily AA/HG (all in all dpsx5), not 100% though and only at some encounter.
DC same as OP is set in stone in any meta, that class has nothing to fear if played correct. What exactly do player aim for in mod 12 if they do not get access towards this dungeon bc they run a striker class? If that player runs this dungeon once a week due to current meta, and his part of "culmination of hard work" is spamming in 50 chats all day long, do you expect him to sit through this actual mod all day until he might see a light in mod 13?
( I know once a week is exaggerating) I can tell a story of >50 Tong runs without a single UE, and that´s no fairy tale 50x Tong x how many do we need, 90+?
I opened a lot of boxes too, doesn´t work that way either, zero drop til now.
Maybe better buy that stuff, 90 mio AD is a number some player might spend with ease...
btw I don´t aim for BIS myself, simply too exhausting. Actual BIS in mod 12 is beyond most things I experienced so far.
Should be interesting how much time devs calculated to earn those enchants for one character? Or do they really think I would open my purse and spend a whopping 1800 EU? No I won´t bc I am not mad, I gonna play this game 24hours a day for the next 2 years lol
Looks more like a big misconcept to me and the worst about it is the fact that depending on the class/role you pick you get access or not. And that`s why a lot of player do not log in any more I guess.
I'll just start selling these:
Some run for BiS, some make money from BiS