Solution to everyone's problems right here , there is absolutely no reason why an person who has leveled up a toon to 70 hasn't made 4 friends , An if you haven't that's your problem . I never random que , I've been farming with the same 7,8 people for 2 years , make friends that are your level an progress as a unit , that's what this games about an That's the reason why dps has a hard time getting in , people are already in set groups with set people an farm with them .we aren't looking for randoms .so your real issue is , YOU NEED FRIENDS .STOP THE DC HATE .
I think you might just be projecting your expectations on someone I know is prone to arguing in an honest manner because what I read in your post is not the same thing I read in @putzboy78 's post.
If honest arguments are a passion of yours might I suggest passive observation of your own thoughts, you'll find them running to their own conclusions without your intervention and those processes, when observed in the 3rd person can give greater insights into our own motivations. I guarantee though, you'll find more questions than answers.
The guy thinks a Cleric shouldn't heal. Give me a break and read couple of his first posts.
True Neutral
Left the Game due to heavy Damage Control & Missing Spanish Language
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putzboy78Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,950Arc User
Each class is doing particular type of a damage. That's a given mechanic.
The topic is self explanatory and nobody needs to articulate how silly it is to have a DPS DC and/or a DC whose primary role will be to use the damaging properties of any kind, as it was with the particular feat during that one time allowing the DC to commit tremendous DPS due to a bug, thus producing actual builds relying on the given feat's damage during the healing processes.
This particular time paved the road for the people to build a DPS sort of a hybrid as a DC and the power creeps later on turned it into a highway for the DC's DPS role due to the insane amounts of the power sharing.
The DC got nerfed reasonably, however the old sense of playing a DC in a DPS sense is still present and can be found on that highway to nowhere. This sort of mentality luckily changed to a degree due to the DCs speccing out for the recovery-intensive builds. (big yay for that)
You are obviously talking from self-motivated reasons somehow getting offended in the process and appearing that you're not seeing the bigger picture which involves all classes. Furthermore the attitude in which you're blaming others for not articulating the 2xDC combo and somehow perpetuating that it is actually " a 4 x support agenda", trying to somehow mitigate the fact that 2x DC is still too good even after the much needed balance, is somewhat cheeky agenda, but a reasonable one since you obviously like playing a DC and quite possibly you liked playing a DPS DC at the given time.
Whatever your reasons may be, a DPS specced DC is a ludicrous idea regardless of the meta for the game. I'm not somehow taking it out of the context of anything, but I am calling it out that it's silly at best.
Yes, the 2xDC needs to die out and, yes, the 4x "support" needs changing. I do not think we'd need to write shakespearesque essays representing the each and 2xDC + 2xOP is part of the bigger problem, but it is not a mistake to strictly talk about the DCs in the Temple section and also sometimes mention that bigger problem to which the 2xDC are also a component/part of.
I hope that's enough articulating for your merits.
The point being is that someone asked how the 2xDC meta came to be. I explained it and your response is to focus on the terminology used in naming the roles. In actual debate (which this is not) nitpicking on terminology and spelling is a sign that the respondent has nothing useful to add to the discussion (defeat). So thanks for that
The point of the whole lets not focus on 2xDC argument and lets look at the 4xSupport argument as already stated in this thread belongs to the fact we must look at what the real problems are. I have no issue with a change to classes but no class should get nerfed into oblivion. A class needs to be as viable as any other. The real challenge that needs to be addressed is how to get dps TR, HR, CW, and SW into TONG. Many will point out that MOF CW can get into TONG but its a terrible argument since what the outcry is for is people who prefer DPS getting forced into support capacities by a meta that they do not enjoy. That's not balance and it will still turn people off.
I stated it before and I state it again, the problem is the player base. I've done two ToNG's yesterday again, 1 Rainbow group (OP, DC, MoF 2 x DPS -32min, and OP, DC, HR, HR, GWF, 31min). DC's where AC/DC 14.5 - 15K. Average group IL 15K. Most importantly players that play their classes 2 years and longer.
Yes you ignored 3 other healer builds and took the BIS one. You don't see the hypocrisy in that?
Especially in Tong everone knows why this class is needed at 2.+3. boss. Even without any buffs towards the group most will pick that class (esp if not BIS) , since they simply can´t succeed without tools like AA/HG/DG/AS/Exalt.
You don't NEED all that, but you do need AAs cc immunity making only one healer role build viable and guaranteeing that healidon and templock have no chance of making it into a TONG party.
I think you might just be projecting your expectations on someone I know is prone to arguing in an honest manner because what I read in your post is not the same thing I read in @putzboy78 's post.
If honest arguments are a passion of yours might I suggest passive observation of your own thoughts, you'll find them running to their own conclusions without your intervention and those processes, when observed in the 3rd person can give greater insights into our own motivations. I guarantee though, you'll find more questions than answers.
The guy thinks a Cleric shouldn't heal. Give me a break and read couple of his first posts.
I've never said a cleric shouldn't heal. I've said that there is no room for healers in this game. Its a dps fest and we all know it. Either your DPS or your carrying the dps's lunch bucket. Every class is measured against their ability to contribute to party dps. You reduce any class/build to a healer only function and you see them on the outside of content looking in. I have been here from the beginning, I was here for 5 CW parties where people have left party because "I don't need heals" (even when we were still able to provide significant buff/debuff from hallowed ground but that shows the community intelligence hasn't changed much).
Post edited by kreatyve on
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jumpingmorksMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 876Arc User
@c1k4ml3kc3 If you have feedback give it, but am in agreement with @putzboy78 .. semantic arguments are a dead end discussion where nothing gets resolved, by all means do what you can to clarify statement(s) or position that you feel have been misunderstood but the moment we feel we must prove a point or adopt an I'm right he's wrong mentality we lose the ability to contibute any healthy feedback to a discussion in my view.
You don't NEED all that, but you do need AAs cc immunity making only one healer role build viable and guaranteeing that healidon and templock have no chance of making it into a TONG party.
It is not only cc-immunity, that saves your hamster all the time. A non BIS group has severe problems without DG+AS/Exalt+HG +AA (damagereduction) at 2.+3. boss. At 2. boss you are onehittet with ease right from the start without mitigationtools I assure you. At 3. you can avoid a lot of pain if you simply stay out of red.
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putzboy78Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,950Arc User
one of the best suggestions I've seen so far is to be able to queue in as different roles. Those roles give you buffs and curses not dissimilar to the mechanic we see on Orcus in TONG. Let those buffs and curses exist in public queues so the performance gap between rainbow parties and vs meta private queues is narrowed.
The chief problem still is an will remain a crowded dps role. Without having separation of role in the dps field you end up with all you need is the class with the highest base weapon damage slotting lightning to way waist to everything both mobs and bosses. So what if you had role assignments like, and i'm only throwing out examples here, much more thought would need to go into it
In which case you may want to mix in match, depending on build a tr could go controller, single target, or even aoe dps (hopefully we get some rework so TR is the king of single target when built for it).
When you public queue maybe you can signup for multiple roles. This would give more liberty to certain builds and more creativity to public queue. If you are queue lead you assign the role to each participant.
I see this as a creative solution that doesn't take away from anyone's builds or preferred playing style. And I apologize because I forget who first post it and can't seem to find it now but it was an excellent idea ad features out of the box thinking. more thought could include more creative ideas for buffs and curses. ex constant incoming damage like on orcus, maybe some russian roulet type queue option, where you don't know what you'll get, what if your tank could have a speed buff or what if every so often a players damage turns on the party, could you imagine a very high buff that also gambles on your gwf IBS applying to the party instead 2% of the time? lol
I've never said a cleric shouldn't heal. I've said that there is no room for healers in this game. Its a dps fest and we all know it. Either your DPS or your carrying the dps's lunch bucket. Every class is measured against their ability to contribute to party dps. You reduce any class/build to a healer only function and you see them on the outside of content looking in. I have been here from the beginning, I was here for 5 CW parties where people have left party because "I don't need heals" (even when we were still able to provide significant buff/debuff from hallowed ground but that shows the community intelligence hasn't changed much).
Sad but true. Not sure how many Light-specced Healadins there are left in game outside of PvP.
EDIT:
And pick a spot for this thread. Next thing you know we'll in the Guard Barracks or the Hells like @schietindebux said.
@c1k4ml3kc3 If you have feedback give it, but am in agreement with @putzboy78 .. semantic arguments are a dead end discussion where nothing gets resolved, by all means do what you can to clarify statement(s) or position that you feel have been misunderstood but the moment we feel we must prove a point or adopt an I'm right he's wrong mentality we lose the ability to contibute any healthy feedback to a discussion in my view.
Sigh...
I really couldn't care less for your statement since you didn't address any of the Things I originally stated. Although I can repeat them right here and now : 2 x DC needs to die out. It's not at all game-friendly to anyone. As for your statement, you're diverting the topic by doing exactly what you preach that shouldn't be done, thus prolonging the argument for no real reason...
It is completely fine if you're okay with what that person states, however he feels attacked by me and tries to diminish what I stated without realizing that I didn't actually directly talk to him. I didn't even quote the person. The way I see is that he's threatened by each and every negative narrative on the topic of DC nerfing, by any degree, which is why this topic itself is filled with his argumentative comments up to a point where he himself will argue that I somehow misunderstood what he wrote about. And starts arguing that "I took something out of the context" without realizing that I actually do not really care for the opinion of someone who trash talks everyone in the topic.
If you look and re-read what I wrote I was talking about the general idea that a DPS cleric is a ludicrous idea at best and any promotion of such idea is silly. Perhaps my comment isn't the best nor is with the general theme of this topic, but I was addressing that there are people who are still seeking a DPS cleric builds. As noted, this was nerfed twice. Once directly (powers) and once indirectly (bondings).
Please note that I won't simply stand down because that guy jumps on any sentence where he thinks I'm talking to him simply because I somewhat connected to what I previously read and wrote about in a rather parliamentarian stance.
Yes, I will defend myself from silly allegations and accusations and especially against someone who proceeded to state that Clerics shouldn't be healers in the game since, according to him, there's no "place for healing". I stand against such arguments because those ARE the epitome of defeatism and a portrayal of poor argumentative skills, especially in the topic which tries to be more open to a class balance in which case a Cleric would come back to its old and good state of healing which is a de facto DnD principle. He goes on stating that DnD doesn't matter. Practically, he's content with the meta and wants nothing to change. I do not see any other argument coming from him which is why I do not care for what he writes about. It's as simple as that.
It's just a talk, let's not jump to conclusions.
Thanks for reading.
True Neutral
Left the Game due to heavy Damage Control & Missing Spanish Language
The point being is that someone asked how the 2xDC meta came to be. I explained it and your response is to focus on the terminology used in naming the roles. In actual debate (which this is not) nitpicking on terminology and spelling is a sign that the respondent has nothing useful to add to the discussion (defeat). So thanks for that
You see, you're jumping into conclusions that I somehow started nitpicking out of the context. I don't care what you wrote or talked about with someone asking something.
I read the last post, saw something which reminded me of something else and I talked about what I wanted to talk about. You made a bit of drama for no reason, really.
Ironically, you argue that people in the topic can't articulate what they have in mind enough, and now you're arguing that you didn't articulate enough on the terminology of "A DPS".
Heh.
no hard feelings but as the GnR song goes : live and let die. Especially the 2 x DC combo.
True Neutral
Left the Game due to heavy Damage Control & Missing Spanish Language
Solution to everyone's problems right here , there is absolutely no reason why an person who has leveled up a toon to 70 hasn't made 4 friends , An if you haven't that's your problem . I never random que , I've been farming with the same 7,8 people for 2 years , make friends that are your level an progress as a unit , that's what this games about an That's the reason why dps has a hard time getting in , people are already in set groups with set people an farm with them .we aren't looking for randoms .so your real issue is , YOU NEED FRIENDS .STOP THE DC HATE .
You never will meet new friends by that Running 24/7 with Timmy, Jimmy and Tina , doesn´t sound like a good solution towards the actual balance issue.
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micky1p00Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 3,594Arc User
Solution to everyone's problems right here , there is absolutely no reason why an person who has leveled up a toon to 70 hasn't made 4 friends , An if you haven't that's your problem . I never random que , I've been farming with the same 7,8 people for 2 years , make friends that are your level an progress as a unit , that's what this games about an That's the reason why dps has a hard time getting in , people are already in set groups with set people an farm with them .we aren't looking for randoms .so your real issue is , YOU NEED FRIENDS .STOP THE DC HATE .
So we know that we need 1 DPS, 4 supports. We know that all groups are set, you are not inviting randoms. We know that there are more DPS than support players.
So with whom the hell you suggest they make friends? Or they are supposed to do friendly 5 DPS runs?
Solution to everyone's problems right here , there is absolutely no reason why an person who has leveled up a toon to 70 hasn't made 4 friends , An if you haven't that's your problem . I never random que , I've been farming with the same 7,8 people for 2 years , make friends that are your level an progress as a unit , that's what this games about.
W8 a sec, ur saying that I hav 2 talk to others in an MMO??????
Y arent all teh supports bowing down to mah 1337 ub0r hax0r Deeps skills?????
Solution to everyone's problems right here , there is absolutely no reason why an person who has leveled up a toon to 70 hasn't made 4 friends , An if you haven't that's your problem . I never random que , I've been farming with the same 7,8 people for 2 years , make friends that are your level an progress as a unit , that's what this games about an That's the reason why dps has a hard time getting in , people are already in set groups with set people an farm with them .we aren't looking for randoms .so your real issue is , YOU NEED FRIENDS .STOP THE DC HATE .
So we know that we need 1 DPS, 4 supports. We know that all groups are set, you are not inviting randoms. We know that there are more DPS than support players.
So with whom the hell you suggest they make friends? Or they are supposed to do friendly 5 DPS runs?
Guys, making friends, party, join a group, loadout etc are all adaption. Although people might say adaption are key for survival, sadly it wont solve the core problem. It only help u to adapt to the problem.
For example, a country problem is corruption causing economic instability. While some can adapt with whatever method that is able them to survive. But without realy ridding the source of the problem and re-establish new law to prevent future reoccurance, things are going to get worse. When corruption gets bad till people start thinking that it is impossible solve and continue to adapt and doing nothing to stop it, the person who cause the corruption is most happy and continue reaping the national vault till there is no penny left.
Adaption is temperory and sometime can be delusional. It only let u survive a little longer till u run out of resource to survive. Its good to adapt but the real problem need to be solved.
Another option is to eliminate the problem, like in the WIld West. By that you will get an acceptable relation concerning striker vs supporter. " Bountyhunt in Chult, slay 10 striker, get a black pearl and 20 treasures of Chult"
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clericalistMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 595Arc User
So much has been said here, and this will continue to be the case until Cryptic fixes the problem. The problem is power creep, this power creep creates an endless cycle of trying to create more "challenging" content, thus dungeons like Tong are created, only the problem is that it only becomes an insane dps test and all other game features play no role. Nobody who plays any MMO game, let alone D&D, honestly intended to play everything as just one gigantic power sharing dps race, this is a problem and it needs to be fixed.
There are many practical solutions which can make the game more challenging, as in real challenge not simply the challenge of calculating the maximum power sharing bonus one can achieve. However if people are simply going to accept whatever meta they are given then this is not going to happen, it is better to criticize and suggest improvements than simply playing the game in cheese mode, because that is what is now, mandatory 2 dcs (and not even for the healing) is pure cheese.
There are many practical solutions which can make the game more challenging, as in real challenge not simply the challenge of calculating the maximum power sharing bonus one can achieve. However if people are simply going to accept whatever meta they are given then this is not going to happen, it is better to criticize and suggest improvements than simply playing the game in cheese mode, because that is what is now, mandatory 2 dcs (and not even for the healing) is pure cheese.
> @micky1p00 said: > Solution to everyone's problems right here , there is absolutely no reason why an person who has leveled up a toon to 70 hasn't made 4 friends , An if you haven't that's your problem . I never random que , I've been farming with the same 7,8 people for 2 years , make friends that are your level an progress as a unit , that's what this games about an That's the reason why dps has a hard time getting in , people are already in set groups with set people an farm with them .we aren't looking for randoms .so your real issue is , YOU NEED FRIENDS .STOP THE DC HATE . > > So we know that we need 1 DPS, 4 supports. > We know that all groups are set, you are not inviting randoms. > We know that there are more DPS than support players. > > So with whom the hell you suggest they make friends? Or they are supposed to do friendly 5 DPS runs? > > Here, between runs: > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pigeonhole_principle > > > > LF 2 DC 1 GF 1 OP to be my friends! People have multiple characters, you adjust to the meta with your group. We didn't start with a perfect support group , my first character was a dps , when I noticed there was a lack of support me an a few friends made dcs an tanks .again it's no ones fault you guys can't adjust to the mods ,you can't expect the entire game to get a make over because you wanted to go the easy route with a dps ..it sure the heck wasn't easy raising a dc finishing campaign after campaign, took alot of effort an dedication .... I don't see any threads about how hard it is to level up a dc , do you ? So man up an stop trying to ruin farming . #lazygamerproblems
You know, I'd prefer that they changed the queue requirements with the release of Bard class. 1x healer, 1x tank, 1x buffer and 2x DPS. And then actually properly defined what constitutes a buffer, healer, tank, DPS and so on. Albeit with the addition of loadouts it could be exploited by queuing say a SW as HB and then switching to Templock or whatever. They've driven themselves into the corner they're in and now they better effin' ponder what they're gonna do.
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micky1p00Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 3,594Arc User
> Solution to everyone's problems right here , there is absolutely no reason why an person who has leveled up a toon to 70 hasn't made 4 friends , An if you haven't that's your problem . I never random que , I've been farming with the same 7,8 people for 2 years , make friends that are your level an progress as a unit , that's what this games about an That's the reason why dps has a hard time getting in , people are already in set groups with set people an farm with them .we aren't looking for randoms .so your real issue is , YOU NEED FRIENDS .STOP THE DC HATE .
>
> So we know that we need 1 DPS, 4 supports.
> We know that all groups are set, you are not inviting randoms.
> We know that there are more DPS than support players.
>
> So with whom the hell you suggest they make friends? Or they are supposed to do friendly 5 DPS runs?
> LF 2 DC 1 GF 1 OP to be my friends! People have multiple characters, you adjust to the meta with your group. We didn't start with a perfect support group , my first character was a dps , when I noticed there was a lack of support me an a few friends made dcs an tanks .again it's no ones fault you guys can't adjust to the mods ,you can't expect the entire game to get a make over because you wanted to go the easy route with a dps ..it sure the heck wasn't easy raising a dc finishing campaign after campaign, took alot of effort an dedication .... I don't see any threads about how hard it is to level up a dc , do you ? So man up an stop trying to ruin farming . #lazygamerproblems
Right! So your solution is that we all need to swap mains and level those from 0 just because.... I'm sorry, I actually need to pay for my basement dwelling (don't actually have a basement, but lets imagine one, with a lot of bills).
If Lazygamers = adults, then yes, sorry, have one job.. Don't need a second, leveling alts per meta change. On some whim. Some enjoy alts, and it's great, I don't, and you will not dictate that I will change class, and game play to actually play the game. BTW, Lazy me linked you something, you may want to unlazy yourself and check it, but off course, do it from the phone, I don't want to keep you from farming.
Everyone wants to swing the big stick an run dps , I've seen plenty along the way who don't like being support because it wasn't cool , wanted to be on top the the pain giver charts .support has to be on point every run we need to tank an buff before you even strike the enemy to prevent people from getting killed, dps is the lazy man's class in all aspects of the game, those of us who took one for the team are expect to get nerf after nerf now . No thank you
> @micky1p00 said: > > @micky1p00 said: > > > Solution to everyone's problems right here , there is absolutely no reason why an person who has leveled up a toon to 70 hasn't made 4 friends , An if you haven't that's your problem . I never random que , I've been farming with the same 7,8 people for 2 years , make friends that are your level an progress as a unit , that's what this games about an That's the reason why dps has a hard time getting in , people are already in set groups with set people an farm with them .we aren't looking for randoms .so your real issue is , YOU NEED FRIENDS .STOP THE DC HATE . > > > > > > So we know that we need 1 DPS, 4 supports. > > > We know that all groups are set, you are not inviting randoms. > > > We know that there are more DPS than support players. > > > > > > So with whom the hell you suggest they make friends? Or they are supposed to do friendly 5 DPS runs? > > > > > > Here, between runs: > > > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pigeonhole_principle > > > > > > > > > > > > LF 2 DC 1 GF 1 OP to be my friends! People have multiple characters, you adjust to the meta with your group. We didn't start with a perfect support group , my first character was a dps , when I noticed there was a lack of support me an a few friends made dcs an tanks .again it's no ones fault you guys can't adjust to the mods ,you can't expect the entire game to get a make over because you wanted to go the easy route with a dps ..it sure the heck wasn't easy raising a dc finishing campaign after campaign, took alot of effort an dedication .... I don't see any threads about how hard it is to level up a dc , do you ? So man up an stop trying to ruin farming . #lazygamerproblems > > Right! So your solution is that we all need to swap mains and level those from 0 just because.... > I'm sorry, I actually need to pay for my basement dwelling (don't actually have a basement, but lets imagine one, with a lot of bills). > > If Lazygamers = adults, then yes, sorry, have one job.. Don't need a second, leveling alts per meta change. On some whim. Some enjoy alts, and it's great, I don't, and you will not dictate that I will change class, and game play to actually play the game. > BTW, Lazy me linked you something, you may want to unlazy yourself and check it, but off course, do it from the phone, I don't want to keep you from farming.
Lazy like you can do your dailies in 10 minutes , you don't need to look for groups for a weekly .I had to beg in dread ring to do my weekly , grind out killing enemies in sea of moving ice . An yea buddy I've got bills also an a job thanks , still doesn't excuse how easy dps has it compared to support. So it's only fair that we get the perks at the endgame when you have had the perks of walking through everything else , wouldn't you say so ?
Everyone wants to swing the big stick an run dps , I've seen plenty along the way who don't like being support because it wasn't cool , wanted to be on top the the pain giver charts .support has to be on point every run we need to tank an buff before you even strike the enemy to prevent people from getting killed, dps is the lazy man's class in all aspects of the game, those of us who took one for the team are expect to get nerf after nerf now . No thank you
The issue here is that they either kill off one of the DC paths, or keep the issue. And frankly, both options are HAMSTER.
They should roll back the nerf to AA (not the bugfix) and restore AS, then fix the bug in Companion's Gift that allows it to pass shared power
This would still leave AC/DC in a sad state and increase the time of dungeon runs, but a bug is a bug and it needs to be fixed
Whatever damage fixing the bug causes can be addressed once we can see the full effect, but dancing around a known issue by nerfing everything else is clearly just breaking stuff while not fixing anything
Only base stats get shared by every sharing buff in the game EXCEPT Companion's Gift
I don't want devs to ruin AC/DC... I have more hours on that build than any other class by far, but I do not care if everyone gets mad because their favorite bug exploit gets taken away
Allowing this bug to remain in the game has led to many of the biggest problems this game has, including the ridiculously powerful mobs and bosses that devs have been putting in the newest content to counteract the power creep allowed by a broken buff
Yeah sure, fixing this after the bonding nerf would suck, but this is what should have been done INSTEAD of the nerfs to bonding stones and everything else
Yeah sure, fixing this after the bonding nerf would suck, but this is what should have been done INSTEAD of the nerfs to bonding stones and everything else
Both things are OP. Bonding nerf is the only appropriate decision.
Back in Shadowmantle the Companions got introduced as a way to build a unique class.
True Neutral
Left the Game due to heavy Damage Control & Missing Spanish Language
1
micky1p00Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 3,594Arc User
Everyone wants to swing the big stick an run dps , I've seen plenty along the way who don't like being support because it wasn't cool , wanted to be on top the the pain giver charts .support has to be on point every run we need to tank an buff before you even strike the enemy to prevent people from getting killed, dps is the lazy man's class in all aspects of the game, those of us who took one for the team are expect to get nerf after nerf now . No thank you
So let me understand, if everyone want, that means you want too. So instead than playing what you want, you 'took one for the team' to play what you don't want. So because you don't enjoy, or enjoy the game less than you could have, we all should? Yup, it's definitely not a design issue, my bad. It's the player base. We should all play what we don't want, in a game we don't actually like, and be miserable all around just for what?
Sorry, but I'm not here to suffer... And if there is a design issue, then there is a design issue, when the game offered me a class, there is underlying promise there, that I will be able to actually play it (excluding player depended outliers). If it takes to an average player hours (or no success at all) to make a party using all available tools like custom channels, etc.. Then the game is not in a healthy situation. Needing a clique to join a party is not a healthy situation. Blaming the player base for this, while obviously it takes two to tango, is not the solution.
To be clear, we are not talking about non-viable builds, we are talking about ratios, classes and meta issues.
Simply to underline what the actual situation is about. I did hunts before maintainance, several hours, in the end wasted a lot of time
During that time I witnessed one player 15k+ (not favoured striker-class) spamming for hours through all channels for Tong (lfg and lfm). I asked him how he felt about that situation, guess what he said: "HAMSTER that HAMSTER class" In the end he obviously gave up and logged of.
I know, he could have asked his imaginary friends. Sadly there are not that many available, since he only plays that " HAMSTER class" and noone wants to be friend of a " HAMSTER class" . If he would play a supporter, he would have tons of friends though. If he would play both classes, a lot of friends would ask him to join with his supporter ... this request only counts for "not HAMSTER class"
Yeah sure, fixing this after the bonding nerf would suck, but this is what should have been done INSTEAD of the nerfs to bonding stones and everything else
Both things are OP. Bonding nerf is the only appropriate decision.
Back in Shadowmantle the Companions got introduced as a way to build a unique class.
Not really sure what you are trying to say here, or how when pets were introduced has anything to do with anything, but my point is that reducing the power of bonding stones was incorrect
What they should have done instead was remove the ability of bonding stones to pass on buffed stats, so Companion's Gift would only pass the pet's base stats to its owner and not the additional power received from party buffs
Companion's Gift is a buff, and all other buffs in the game that are based on sharing %stats only count base stats, so I consider CG to be bugged
> @schietindebux said: > Simply to underline what the actual situation is about. > I did hunts before maintainance, several hours, in the end wasted a lot of time > > During that time I witnessed one player 15k+ (not favoured striker-class) spamming for hours through all channels for Tong (lfg and lfm). > I asked him how he felt about that situation, guess what he said: "<font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> that <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> class" > In the end he obviously gave up and logged of. > > I know, he could have asked his imaginary friends. Sadly there are not that many available, since he only plays that " <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> class" and noone wants to be friend of a " <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> class" . > If he would play a supporter, he would have tons of friends though. > If he would play both classes, a lot of friends would ask him to join with his supporter ... this request only counts for "not <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> class"
I played a hamster class also SW it's sitting on the shelf with everything legendary an mythical. Everyone has a choice to switch classes , constantly ask for dc to get nerfed won't help his situation cause that's where it's headed with this thread . I've already lost a character due to mega nerfs , won't end for me or the ones not getting into groups .at the end of the day I'll switch characters again to what will be the best for the next meta. An people will still be crying about their characters w/e it is that gets left out next time.its never ending . (I always take 2dc 1pally 2dps for farming .cut 1 dc an you will still have to many dps lfg in chat, an who is to say that guy that was asking for tong isn't famous for being a garbage dps , people do remember when someone sucks an avoid him the next time)
2 days ago I ran with a gwf 15.5k gs .he ran even with the tank , long story short @Bby is not running through another dungeon with me . For all i know it's people like him that started this thread , get your character right an people will pick you up i know I look for dps quite often on xbox
Comments
The point of the whole lets not focus on 2xDC argument and lets look at the 4xSupport argument as already stated in this thread belongs to the fact we must look at what the real problems are. I have no issue with a change to classes but no class should get nerfed into oblivion. A class needs to be as viable as any other. The real challenge that needs to be addressed is how to get dps TR, HR, CW, and SW into TONG. Many will point out that MOF CW can get into TONG but its a terrible argument since what the outcry is for is people who prefer DPS getting forced into support capacities by a meta that they do not enjoy. That's not balance and it will still turn people off.
Removed line discussing moderation Yes you ignored 3 other healer builds and took the BIS one. You don't see the hypocrisy in that? Elitism is not a problem, we are not socialist, we do not have to tailor the environment to the least among us. You don't NEED all that, but you do need AAs cc immunity making only one healer role build viable and guaranteeing that healidon and templock have no chance of making it into a TONG party. I've never said a cleric shouldn't heal. I've said that there is no room for healers in this game. Its a dps fest and we all know it. Either your DPS or your carrying the dps's lunch bucket. Every class is measured against their ability to contribute to party dps. You reduce any class/build to a healer only function and you see them on the outside of content looking in. I have been here from the beginning, I was here for 5 CW parties where people have left party because "I don't need heals" (even when we were still able to provide significant buff/debuff from hallowed ground but that shows the community intelligence hasn't changed much).
If you have feedback give it, but am in agreement with @putzboy78 .. semantic arguments are a dead end discussion where nothing gets resolved, by all means do what you can to clarify statement(s) or position that you feel have been misunderstood but the moment we feel we must prove a point or adopt an I'm right he's wrong mentality we lose the ability to contibute any healthy feedback to a discussion in my view.
A non BIS group has severe problems without DG+AS/Exalt+HG +AA (damagereduction) at 2.+3. boss.
At 2. boss you are onehittet with ease right from the start without mitigationtools I assure you.
At 3. you can avoid a lot of pain if you simply stay out of red.
The chief problem still is an will remain a crowded dps role. Without having separation of role in the dps field you end up with all you need is the class with the highest base weapon damage slotting lightning to way waist to everything both mobs and bosses. So what if you had role assignments like, and i'm only throwing out examples here, much more thought would need to go into it
tank + 10% threat -10% incoming damage -10% self heals
controller +10% CC +10% aoe damage -10% single target damage -10% self heals
single target dps +10% single target dps -10% aoe damage -10% self heals
aoe dps +10% aoe damage - 10% single target damage -10% self heals
healer +10% outgoing heals - 10% self heals -10% damage
offtank -10% threat +5 damage - 10% self heals
etc etc etc
In which case you may want to mix in match, depending on build a tr could go controller, single target, or even aoe dps (hopefully we get some rework so TR is the king of single target when built for it).
When you public queue maybe you can signup for multiple roles. This would give more liberty to certain builds and more creativity to public queue. If you are queue lead you assign the role to each participant.
I see this as a creative solution that doesn't take away from anyone's builds or preferred playing style. And I apologize because I forget who first post it and can't seem to find it now but it was an excellent idea ad features out of the box thinking. more thought could include more creative ideas for buffs and curses. ex constant incoming damage like on orcus, maybe some russian roulet type queue option, where you don't know what you'll get, what if your tank could have a speed buff or what if every so often a players damage turns on the party, could you imagine a very high buff that also gambles on your gwf IBS applying to the party instead 2% of the time? lol
EDIT:
And pick a spot for this thread. Next thing you know we'll in the Guard Barracks or the Hells like @schietindebux said.
House Miliskeera in exile (NW)
Sereska Miliskeera, Lvl 70 OP - Devotion (Just.)/Protection (Just.)
Shizlee Miliskeera, Lvl 70 DC - Divine Oracle (Right.)/Anoited Champion (Faith.)
Finithey Miliskeera, Lvl 70 HR - Stormwarden (Combat)/Pathfinder (Trapper)
Maya Sik-Miliskeera, Lvl 70 CW - Spellstorm
Irae Sik-Miliskeera, Lvl 70 TR - Master Inflitrator
Member - Houseclan t'Charvon (STO)
Shiarrael e'Tal'Aura t'Charvon, LvL 60, Rom Sci
S'aana ir'Virinat t'Charvon, Lvl 60, Rom Eng
T'Lyra, LvL 60, Fed, Vul Sci
Ta'el, Lvl 60, Rom Tac
I really couldn't care less for your statement since you didn't address any of the Things I originally stated. Although I can repeat them right here and now : 2 x DC needs to die out. It's not at all game-friendly to anyone.
As for your statement, you're diverting the topic by doing exactly what you preach that shouldn't be done, thus prolonging the argument for no real reason...
It is completely fine if you're okay with what that person states, however he feels attacked by me and tries to diminish what I stated without realizing that I didn't actually directly talk to him. I didn't even quote the person. The way I see is that he's threatened by each and every negative narrative on the topic of DC nerfing, by any degree, which is why this topic itself is filled with his argumentative comments up to a point where he himself will argue that I somehow misunderstood what he wrote about. And starts arguing that "I took something out of the context" without realizing that I actually do not really care for the opinion of someone who trash talks everyone in the topic.
If you look and re-read what I wrote I was talking about the general idea that a DPS cleric is a ludicrous idea at best and any promotion of such idea is silly. Perhaps my comment isn't the best nor is with the general theme of this topic, but I was addressing that there are people who are still seeking a DPS cleric builds. As noted, this was nerfed twice. Once directly (powers) and once indirectly (bondings).
Please note that I won't simply stand down because that guy jumps on any sentence where he thinks I'm talking to him simply because I somewhat connected to what I previously read and wrote about in a rather parliamentarian stance.
Yes, I will defend myself from silly allegations and accusations and especially against someone who proceeded to state that Clerics shouldn't be healers in the game since, according to him, there's no "place for healing". I stand against such arguments because those ARE the epitome of defeatism and a portrayal of poor argumentative skills, especially in the topic which tries to be more open to a class balance in which case a Cleric would come back to its old and good state of healing which is a de facto DnD principle. He goes on stating that DnD doesn't matter. Practically, he's content with the meta and wants nothing to change. I do not see any other argument coming from him which is why I do not care for what he writes about. It's as simple as that.
It's just a talk, let's not jump to conclusions.
Thanks for reading.
I read the last post, saw something which reminded me of something else and I talked about what I wanted to talk about. You made a bit of drama for no reason, really.
Ironically, you argue that people in the topic can't articulate what they have in mind enough, and now you're arguing that you didn't articulate enough on the terminology of "A DPS".
Heh.
no hard feelings but as the GnR song goes : live and let die. Especially the 2 x DC combo.
Running 24/7 with Timmy, Jimmy and Tina , doesn´t sound like a good solution towards the actual balance issue.
We know that all groups are set, you are not inviting randoms.
We know that there are more DPS than support players.
So with whom the hell you suggest they make friends? Or they are supposed to do friendly 5 DPS runs?
Here, between runs:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pigeonhole_principle
LF 2 DC 1 GF 1 OP to be my friends! Please don't be Imaginary too.
Y arent all teh supports bowing down to mah 1337 ub0r hax0r Deeps skills????? I don't have any one of those setups and I am most certainly imaginary!
For example, a country problem is corruption causing economic instability. While some can adapt with whatever method that is able them to survive. But without realy ridding the source of the problem and re-establish new law to prevent future reoccurance, things are going to get worse. When corruption gets bad till people start thinking that it is impossible solve and continue to adapt and doing nothing to stop it, the person who cause the corruption is most happy and continue reaping the national vault till there is no penny left.
Adaption is temperory and sometime can be delusional. It only let u survive a little longer till u run out of resource to survive. Its good to adapt but the real problem need to be solved.
" Bountyhunt in Chult, slay 10 striker, get a black pearl and 20 treasures of Chult"
There are many practical solutions which can make the game more challenging, as in real challenge not simply the challenge of calculating the maximum power sharing bonus one can achieve. However if people are simply going to accept whatever meta they are given then this is not going to happen, it is better to criticize and suggest improvements than simply playing the game in cheese mode, because that is what is now, mandatory 2 dcs (and not even for the healing) is pure cheese.
> Solution to everyone's problems right here , there is absolutely no reason why an person who has leveled up a toon to 70 hasn't made 4 friends , An if you haven't that's your problem . I never random que , I've been farming with the same 7,8 people for 2 years , make friends that are your level an progress as a unit , that's what this games about an That's the reason why dps has a hard time getting in , people are already in set groups with set people an farm with them .we aren't looking for randoms .so your real issue is , YOU NEED FRIENDS .STOP THE DC HATE .
>
> So we know that we need 1 DPS, 4 supports.
> We know that all groups are set, you are not inviting randoms.
> We know that there are more DPS than support players.
>
> So with whom the hell you suggest they make friends? Or they are supposed to do friendly 5 DPS runs?
>
> Here, between runs:
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pigeonhole_principle
>
>
>
> LF 2 DC 1 GF 1 OP to be my friends! People have multiple characters, you adjust to the meta with your group. We didn't start with a perfect support group , my first character was a dps , when I noticed there was a lack of support me an a few friends made dcs an tanks .again it's no ones fault you guys can't adjust to the mods ,you can't expect the entire game to get a make over because you wanted to go the easy route with a dps ..it sure the heck wasn't easy raising a dc finishing campaign after campaign, took alot of effort an dedication .... I don't see any threads about how hard it is to level up a dc , do you ? So man up an stop trying to ruin farming . #lazygamerproblems
I'm sorry, I actually need to pay for my basement dwelling (don't actually have a basement, but lets imagine one, with a lot of bills).
If Lazygamers = adults, then yes, sorry, have one job.. Don't need a second, leveling alts per meta change. On some whim. Some enjoy alts, and it's great, I don't, and you will not dictate that I will change class, and game play to actually play the game.
BTW, Lazy me linked you something, you may want to unlazy yourself and check it, but off course, do it from the phone, I don't want to keep you from farming.
> > @micky1p00 said:
>
> > Solution to everyone's problems right here , there is absolutely no reason why an person who has leveled up a toon to 70 hasn't made 4 friends , An if you haven't that's your problem . I never random que , I've been farming with the same 7,8 people for 2 years , make friends that are your level an progress as a unit , that's what this games about an That's the reason why dps has a hard time getting in , people are already in set groups with set people an farm with them .we aren't looking for randoms .so your real issue is , YOU NEED FRIENDS .STOP THE DC HATE .
>
> >
>
> > So we know that we need 1 DPS, 4 supports.
>
> > We know that all groups are set, you are not inviting randoms.
>
> > We know that there are more DPS than support players.
>
> >
>
> > So with whom the hell you suggest they make friends? Or they are supposed to do friendly 5 DPS runs?
>
> >
>
> > Here, between runs:
>
> > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pigeonhole_principle
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > LF 2 DC 1 GF 1 OP to be my friends! People have multiple characters, you adjust to the meta with your group. We didn't start with a perfect support group , my first character was a dps , when I noticed there was a lack of support me an a few friends made dcs an tanks .again it's no ones fault you guys can't adjust to the mods ,you can't expect the entire game to get a make over because you wanted to go the easy route with a dps ..it sure the heck wasn't easy raising a dc finishing campaign after campaign, took alot of effort an dedication .... I don't see any threads about how hard it is to level up a dc , do you ? So man up an stop trying to ruin farming . #lazygamerproblems
>
> Right! So your solution is that we all need to swap mains and level those from 0 just because....
> I'm sorry, I actually need to pay for my basement dwelling (don't actually have a basement, but lets imagine one, with a lot of bills).
>
> If Lazygamers = adults, then yes, sorry, have one job.. Don't need a second, leveling alts per meta change. On some whim. Some enjoy alts, and it's great, I don't, and you will not dictate that I will change class, and game play to actually play the game.
> BTW, Lazy me linked you something, you may want to unlazy yourself and check it, but off course, do it from the phone, I don't want to keep you from farming.
Lazy like you can do your dailies in 10 minutes , you don't need to look for groups for a weekly .I had to beg in dread ring to do my weekly , grind out killing enemies in sea of moving ice . An yea buddy I've got bills also an a job thanks , still doesn't excuse how easy dps has it compared to support. So it's only fair that we get the perks at the endgame when you have had the perks of walking through everything else , wouldn't you say so ?
They should roll back the nerf to AA (not the bugfix) and restore AS, then fix the bug in Companion's Gift that allows it to pass shared power
This would still leave AC/DC in a sad state and increase the time of dungeon runs, but a bug is a bug and it needs to be fixed
Whatever damage fixing the bug causes can be addressed once we can see the full effect, but dancing around a known issue by nerfing everything else is clearly just breaking stuff while not fixing anything
Only base stats get shared by every sharing buff in the game EXCEPT Companion's Gift
I don't want devs to ruin AC/DC... I have more hours on that build than any other class by far, but I do not care if everyone gets mad because their favorite bug exploit gets taken away
Allowing this bug to remain in the game has led to many of the biggest problems this game has, including the ridiculously powerful mobs and bosses that devs have been putting in the newest content to counteract the power creep allowed by a broken buff
Yeah sure, fixing this after the bonding nerf would suck, but this is what should have been done INSTEAD of the nerfs to bonding stones and everything else
Back in Shadowmantle the Companions got introduced as a way to build a unique class.
So because you don't enjoy, or enjoy the game less than you could have, we all should? Yup, it's definitely not a design issue, my bad. It's the player base. We should all play what we don't want, in a game we don't actually like, and be miserable all around just for what?
Sorry, but I'm not here to suffer... And if there is a design issue, then there is a design issue, when the game offered me a class, there is underlying promise there, that I will be able to actually play it (excluding player depended outliers). If it takes to an average player hours (or no success at all) to make a party using all available tools like custom channels, etc.. Then the game is not in a healthy situation.
Needing a clique to join a party is not a healthy situation. Blaming the player base for this, while obviously it takes two to tango, is not the solution.
To be clear, we are not talking about non-viable builds, we are talking about ratios, classes and meta issues.
I did hunts before maintainance, several hours, in the end wasted a lot of time
During that time I witnessed one player 15k+ (not favoured striker-class) spamming for hours through all channels for Tong (lfg and lfm).
I asked him how he felt about that situation, guess what he said: "HAMSTER that HAMSTER class"
In the end he obviously gave up and logged of.
I know, he could have asked his imaginary friends. Sadly there are not that many available, since he only plays that " HAMSTER class" and noone wants to be friend of a " HAMSTER class" .
If he would play a supporter, he would have tons of friends though.
If he would play both classes, a lot of friends would ask him to join with his supporter ... this request only counts for "not HAMSTER class"
What they should have done instead was remove the ability of bonding stones to pass on buffed stats, so Companion's Gift would only pass the pet's base stats to its owner and not the additional power received from party buffs
Companion's Gift is a buff, and all other buffs in the game that are based on sharing %stats only count base stats, so I consider CG to be bugged
> Simply to underline what the actual situation is about.
> I did hunts before maintainance, several hours, in the end wasted a lot of time
>
> During that time I witnessed one player 15k+ (not favoured striker-class) spamming for hours through all channels for Tong (lfg and lfm).
> I asked him how he felt about that situation, guess what he said: "<font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> that <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> class"
> In the end he obviously gave up and logged of.
>
> I know, he could have asked his imaginary friends. Sadly there are not that many available, since he only plays that " <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> class" and noone wants to be friend of a " <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> class" .
> If he would play a supporter, he would have tons of friends though.
> If he would play both classes, a lot of friends would ask him to join with his supporter ... this request only counts for "not <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> class"
I played a hamster class also SW it's sitting on the shelf with everything legendary an mythical. Everyone has a choice to switch classes , constantly ask for dc to get nerfed won't help his situation cause that's where it's headed with this thread . I've already lost a character due to mega nerfs , won't end for me or the ones not getting into groups .at the end of the day I'll switch characters again to what will be the best for the next meta. An people will still be crying about their characters w/e it is that gets left out next time.its never ending . (I always take 2dc 1pally 2dps for farming .cut 1 dc an you will still have to many dps lfg in chat, an who is to say that guy that was asking for tong isn't famous for being a garbage dps , people do remember when someone sucks an avoid him the next time)