Why is it whenever the devs make adjustments to the game it is called a nerf. When an encounter, at will, runtestone, etc... are performing outside of the devs design and the item is adjusted it is called a nerf. The reality is, it is not a nerf because the item is performing well above what the devs intended. The devs have to look at all angles when making fixes or adjustments and they usually try to do the lesser evil so that the player base does not take as much of a hit, but rarely does the lesser fix result in the type of change/adjustment the devs want. This is why the game is adjusted further until it is to the point where the devs can move onto other things.
It's called a nerf because its a decrease in ability. However, you must acknowledge there are differences. Example
elol set bonus was not working as intended, everyone knew it. Yes they let it sit for a year before resolving it but when the fixed it, it was indeed a fix not a nerf.
When they lowered the amount of stats you get from bonding stones, that was indeed a nerf. Because the function worked as described in the tooltip and they adjusted the tooltip.
The different being the tooltip and the description. In both cases we saw a dramatic decrease in performance one was a fix and one was nerf. In the case of the nerf it was a balancing decision. Another argument in the nerf vs fix column is when things are released to production with bugs identified on test. Live isn't supposed to be a WIP, testers are supposed to identify problems before it impacts customers (game play), you use test scripts to ensure you don't have re-occurrence, you include in your development time a cushion to incorporate feedback from testing. That's one reason many people would call everything a nerf, because once it hits live you should be able to assume its WAI.
My bondings use to state a chance to process and that was not the case. Therefore it was not working as intended. Bondings had a 100% uptime and that was probably not intended initially. There was also a very large gap between R7 and R12 bondings. The other thing is bondings base stats were higher than other runestone stats.
Given all of this, how could anyone not see an issue and not support a fix to bonding. Oh yeah, because everyone wants to be overpowered when there is no need for it.
Ran FBI yesterday with a group and no one used bonding. I was the lone DC. Than we ran with bondings. Same group ran it on Monday. The variance in time is not as significant as many believe. Playing your character to a high level matters more. The run without using bonding took a bit more time, roughly 10 more minutes. The run with the adjusted bonding took 5 more minutes than it did on Monday.
I remember spending 3-6 hours in dungeons in other games and walking away with nothing. So an hour or less, and getting seals is not that bad of a thing.
But why one should limit a class to only one narrow specialization, what we need 3 paths, and 2 paragons for then? Loadouts? People and not bots? Versatility is healthy for the game. This is like fixing a broken window by burning down the house. True the window wont bother anyone anymore, but I wouldn't want to stay there in a rainy season.
If you want to be effective in any of the last 3 Dungeons: GWF - 1 choice, Slam OP - 1 choice, Tankadin GF - Maybe 2 choices (Conq/Tac) HR - Maybe 2 choices (Com/Trap) DC - 2 choices (AC/DO) CW - 3 choices (AoE/ST/MoF) SW - 2 choices if you can get in (AoE/ST) TR - 1 choice if you can get in
While there is obviously room for changing a few things in the builds here and there, nearly all of those are DPS builds
Sure, nobody is forcing anyone to limit their build choices to 1 or 2 things... you can play however you want... but the game's design has made certain very specific choices obviously better than others, and that is bad design
It's all about DPS... If your class can't bring the deeps, you have to buff the DDs so they can bring moar deeps
The only true role anymore belongs to the tanks, because they actually have a few chances here and there to manage aggro while they buff... everybody else is responsible for DPS with a few utility jobs every once and a while
There is no healing needed and there is no control (for players) allowed and there's really not a huge difference between classes other than what buttons you are supposed to push
...and then half the folks on the forums are crying for class balance because everybody wants their easy button
The game could be designed to promote many different types of playstyles for each class, but it simply does not... most classes have paragon paths that make no sense in any situation
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micky1p00Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 3,594Arc User
Why is it whenever the devs make adjustments to the game it is called a nerf. When an encounter, at will, runtestone, etc... are performing outside of the devs design and the item is adjusted it is called a nerf. The reality is, it is not a nerf because the item is performing well above what the devs intended. The devs have to look at all angles when making fixes or adjustments and they usually try to do the lesser evil so that the player base does not take as much of a hit, but rarely does the lesser fix result in the type of change/adjustment the devs want. This is why the game is adjusted further until it is to the point where the devs can move onto other things.
It's called a nerf because its a decrease in ability. However, you must acknowledge there are differences. Example
elol set bonus was not working as intended, everyone knew it. Yes they let it sit for a year before resolving it but when the fixed it, it was indeed a fix not a nerf.
When they lowered the amount of stats you get from bonding stones, that was indeed a nerf. Because the function worked as described in the tooltip and they adjusted the tooltip.
The different being the tooltip and the description. In both cases we saw a dramatic decrease in performance one was a fix and one was nerf. In the case of the nerf it was a balancing decision. Another argument in the nerf vs fix column is when things are released to production with bugs identified on test. Live isn't supposed to be a WIP, testers are supposed to identify problems before it impacts customers (game play), you use test scripts to ensure you don't have re-occurrence, you include in your development time a cushion to incorporate feedback from testing. That's one reason many people would call everything a nerf, because once it hits live you should be able to assume its WAI.
My bondings use to state a chance to process and that was not the case. Therefore it was not working as intended. Bondings had a 100% uptime and that was probably not intended initially. There was also a very large gap between R7 and R12 bondings. The other thing is bondings base stats were higher than other runestone stats.
Given all of this, how could anyone not see an issue and not support a fix to bonding. Oh yeah, because everyone wants to be overpowered when there is no need for it.
Ran FBI yesterday with a group and no one used bonding. I was the lone DC. Than we ran with bondings. Same group ran it on Monday. The variance in time is not as significant as many believe. Playing your character to a high level matters more. The run without using bonding took a bit more time, roughly 10 more minutes. The run with the adjusted bonding took 5 more minutes than it did on Monday.
I remember spending 3-6 hours in dungeons in other games and walking away with nothing. So an hour or less, and getting seals is not that bad of a thing.
It's so nice that someone here to take the moral high ground. What would we have done without you. Damnation. Before you go to the history of bondings, you may want to actually read the history of bondings, it should be all here, in the forums, preview.
O righteous one.
And wait, if there is no difference in bondings in time, what is all the noise about? BTW you should try for better analysis do the test in MC.
But why one should limit a class to only one narrow specialization, what we need 3 paths, and 2 paragons for then? Loadouts? People and not bots? Versatility is healthy for the game. This is like fixing a broken window by burning down the house. True the window wont bother anyone anymore, but I wouldn't want to stay there in a rainy season.
If you want to be effective in any of the last 3 Dungeons: GWF - 1 choice, Slam OP - 1 choice, Tankadin GF - Maybe 2 choices (Conq/Tac) HR - Maybe 2 choices (Com/Trap) DC - 2 choices (AC/DO) CW - 3 choices (AoE/ST/MoF) SW - 2 choices if you can get in (AoE/ST) TR - 1 choice if you can get in
While there is obviously room for changing a few things in the builds here and there, nearly all of those are DPS builds
Sure, nobody is forcing anyone to limit their build choices to 1 or 2 things... you can play however you want... but the game's design has made certain very specific choices obviously better than others, and that is bad design
It's all about DPS... If your class can't bring the deeps, you have to buff the DDs so they can bring moar deeps
The only true role anymore belongs to the tanks, because they actually have a few chances here and there to manage aggro while they buff... everybody else is responsible for DPS with a few utility jobs every once and a while
There is no healing needed and there is no control (for players) allowed and there's really not a huge difference between classes other than what buttons you are supposed to push
...and then half the folks on the forums are crying for class balance because everybody wants their easy button
The game could be designed to promote many different types of playstyles for each class, but it simply does not... most classes have paragon paths that make no sense in any situation
At least some have more than one choice,. And actually DC and OP do have more, it's a content issue that no one needs heals. But those are not the choices we were talking about, the topic was roles, not actual specs. that besides the point, the proposal was to narrow it even further (not my proposal), to which I've expressed disagreement.
I don't see any issue of GF (now we will see everyone jump in with their HAMSTER on fire) going as DPS or as Tank, as long as it's not both at the same time. And even better if queue can support this, the same way OP can slot as tank and as healer. It's a balance of trade offs, you want to spec as tank, go for it, but the trade off is lousy dps (for example). You want to spec your CW as controller, sure, less DPS, less debuff for you, you want debuff, then no dps, no control. You get the point, is it hard to do? Not much, the main thing that should happen is that the higher tear feats and capstones to be more specialized and more significant. The addition of a single t3 feat column and 10 more points at mod 6 was a huge mistake. Many thought there will be additional tree added, but instead the more points than tree depth encouraged cross feating, instead of path specialization.
Don't mistake this "should be" and what is now, those are not the same, but the discussion was about the direction of what we/some "want". I'm for diversity in spec, even if one not needed now, like healer for DC as long as the trade offs are balanced, which right now they are far far from being so. And against class specialization, for example GF can only tank in all it's possible specs.
I've said that your statement of Tank must only tank etc.. is... not good.
Why? Do you need a tank to play volleyball, too? Like, this is DnD mate. If you're going to build a tanky class you won't be buffing him with INT build, for one. You will invest in the CON and HP is there for a meaning to tank and protect the squishier classes. The squishier classes are there to take the initiative and deal the damage.
How from that you got to here? Shortest path from one statement to a stramwen in 12 parsecs?
Cringe.
Yes, I'm talking about it in the context of the current meta. You're yet to provide a solid anser as in to why having multiple classes and multiple class roles - suck? Why should all classes succumb to the 2 classes = DPS and BUFF? Let me answer to that SW rhetoric with this one : It's like putting different cars with different engines to finish a race together equipped with Nitrous DC. Some engines will work better and thus they'll end up the line quicker. If you make all of them to compete and when some of the cars simply underperform in the race, who are you going to bet on your money?
Oh and mod2, the mod of /LF 1 TR experienced. Where experienced meant to know how to shortcut to campfires so the members can 'beam up' there. Mod2, when everyone saw Vals underwear. Mod2, when the need moar CW for CN started. Mod2, when you took CW to SP to push mobs to lava, and mod2 when all you needed is was enough arcane singularities per minute.
But what I know, I just started to play few months ago...
Yes, TRs outperformed and, yes, there will always be some sort of an exploit to finish something quicker than before. People are smart like that. And there are always people who report those and developers fix them.
It is the same reason why channels which played the game as intended by the devs were made, too. So you need to put that on the + side on your list, too.
There were people who weren't going to use an exploit, but then again addressing the problem took quite a long time and exploit was sort of a given. In normal circumstances it would be fixed in a week or so.
Now, talking about that Space Strawman which connects the universe of your witty-wannabe StarWars and StarTrek jokes, how exactly your "argument" that people used exploits suggest that class mechanics were NOT better back then? The controlling power was once one of the mandatory things to have in a group. Right now the controlling methods are completely void. How is that OK to you?
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Left the Game due to heavy Damage Control & Missing Spanish Language
At least some have more than one choice,. And actually DC and OP do have more, it's a content issue that no one needs heals. But those are not the choices we were talking about, the topic was roles, not actual specs. that besides the point, the proposal was to narrow it even further (not my proposal), to which I've expressed disagreement.
My point is that the game itself is defining our roles to DPS and DPS support (and somebody has to mess with aggro sometimes too)
Healer and Control Roles are dead on arrival because the game has made that decision for us
I agree that building for a role should be a trade off, and I agree that each class should be able to have several viable options, but as you said, we have "content issue(s)"
Thanks to broken Companion's Gift, we are playing as a bunch of Supermans... and the devs response is to build dungeons that only Supermans can finish, which is "How the hell power creep is responsible for hard bosses" and its only going to get worse if they keep being stubborn about building only one kind of new content
And even better if queue can support this, the same way OP can slot as tank and as healer. It's a balance of trade offs, you want to spec as tank, go for it, but the trade off is lousy dps (for example). You want to spec your CW as controller, sure, less DPS, less debuff for you, you want debuff, then no dps, no control. You get the point, is it hard to do? Not much, the main thing that should happen is that the higher tear feats and capstones to be more specialized and more significant.
This shows me that you don't know anything about the CW and at this point I feel like I'm talking to a cartoon character.
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Left the Game due to heavy Damage Control & Missing Spanish Language
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micky1p00Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 3,594Arc User
Yes, I'm talking about it in the context of the current meta. You're yet to provide a solid anser as in to why having multiple classes and multiple class roles - suck? Why should all classes succumb to the 2 classes = DPS and BUFF? Let me answer to that SW rhetoric with this one : It's like putting different cars with different engines to finish a race together equipped with Nitrous DC. Some engines will work better and thus they'll end up the line quicker. If you make all of them to compete and when some of the cars simply underperform in the race, who are you going to bet on your money?
I'm yet to provide what? I'm also yet to provide the answer to the universe, life and everything. Or what is the estimated the airspeed velocity of an unladen swallow. Luckily all those were not the topic, and was not for me to answer. To the question of why limiting a class to only a single role in all it's specs is bad, I indeed answered. But I think, that with little thinking anyone can understand that game retention lives on diversity and ability to adapt.
So you are aware of the 4 support + 1 dps issue and you still try to pretend like I said something alien...Sigh
Pretended? Did you read the thread? I'm not sure you are trolling or not. I guess it is, because the other option is not a compliment. My posts are hard to miss, go few pages back, and look at posts with a lot of text...
It is the same reason why channels which played the game as intended by the devs were made, too. So you need to put that on the + side on your list, too.
List of what? BTW I was a mod in that channel. Woohoo for me.. Doesn't change the fact that the game was so screwed that you picked classes by their ability to exploit content. That was "the balance, of mod2". Should I tell you why in mod2 in VT everyone went ranged? I'll give you a hint, it had to do with looking under Vals skirt.
There were people who weren't going to use an exploit, but then again addressing the problem took quite a long time and exploit was sort of a given. In normal circumstances it would be fixed in a week or so.
In the 5 years the game exists, exploits were never fixed in a week or so.. We can open a discussion as to why this happens, but even in the most technical standpoint of view you can look at build dates, and until relativly recently the build to live cycle was 3 weeks. 3 weeks is eternity in terms of exploit.
Now, talking about that Space Strawman which connects the universe of your witty-wannabe StarWars and StarTrek jokes, how exactly your "argument" that people used exploits suggest that class mechanics were NOT better back then? The controlling power was once one of the mandatory things to have in a group. Right now the controlling methods are completely void. How is that OK to you?
Simple, because everyone who can't control were not welcome. And you know who those were? Everyone who is not CW. I know selective memory is selective, but that's how it was. CN was 4CW game, and it started back then.
Oh, and certified witty-wannabe for you. You can call me Dr.witty-wannabe. I have wonnabe PHD in wittiness.
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micky1p00Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 3,594Arc User
And even better if queue can support this, the same way OP can slot as tank and as healer. It's a balance of trade offs, you want to spec as tank, go for it, but the trade off is lousy dps (for example). You want to spec your CW as controller, sure, less DPS, less debuff for you, you want debuff, then no dps, no control. You get the point, is it hard to do? Not much, the main thing that should happen is that the higher tear feats and capstones to be more specialized and more significant.
This shows me that you don't know anything about the CW and at this point I feel like I'm talking to a cartoon character.
No, it shows that you have double standards. When you want to limit other classes to one role it's ok. But when the same suggestion applied to your class, then you go Ad-hominem.
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micky1p00Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 3,594Arc User
At least some have more than one choice,. And actually DC and OP do have more, it's a content issue that no one needs heals. But those are not the choices we were talking about, the topic was roles, not actual specs. that besides the point, the proposal was to narrow it even further (not my proposal), to which I've expressed disagreement.
My point is that the game itself is defining our roles to DPS and DPS support (and somebody has to mess with aggro sometimes too)
Healer and Control Roles are dead on arrival because the game has made that decision for us
I agree that building for a role should be a trade off, and I agree that each class should be able to have several viable options, but as you said, we have "content issue(s)"
Thanks to broken Companion's Gift, we are playing as a bunch of Supermans... and the devs response is to build dungeons that only Supermans can finish, which is "How the hell power creep is responsible for hard bosses" and its only going to get worse if they keep being stubborn about building only one kind of new content
Companion gifts has nothing to do with it, I can multiply all the players damage by 10, and at the same time mobs HP by 10 and nothing changed. This was not an increase by 10 of the power creep, it was 0 change of the power creep.
When you are a superman and your enemies are superman, then you are just a normal dude in a bar brawl. This is fundamental. End game content will always be only viable to end-game players. This has nothing to do with power creep, this is tiered content, and the linear progression in MMO. You start as pleb, fighting plebs, usually in every RPG it will be rats, and your single aim is to get to be a 'god' fighting 'gods', this is how every single progression game is made, from the first mud crawlers 20 years ago, and BG1 Fallout1 etc.. to todays MMOs.
You can blame multiple interactions over many things, but as was already provided in the pre-merged thread, power (the stat) is not direct damage, and people think that the big power numbers are bigger than some buffs, which they are not, and then we have a pitchfork crusade. The problem in power (not the stat) disparity is not bondings (in groups). There are much more significant factors and they were discussed here, until the thread was merged and derailed.
Just a massive cringe, really. Thanks for your time not proving why the diverse classes are not good. You effectively proved nothing which is the main reason of why you can't answer straightforwardly without trying to be funny or edgy or whatever.
Take a hint : preechr got it completely correct and understands what's wrong with the game.
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Left the Game due to heavy Damage Control & Missing Spanish Language
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micky1p00Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 3,594Arc User
Just a massive cringe, really. Thanks for your time not proving why the diverse classes are not good. You effectively proved nothing which is the main reason of why you can't answer straightforwardly without trying to be funny or edgy or whatever.
Take a hint : preechr got it completely correct and understands what's wrong with the game.
Ad-hominem. When you can't even provide funny, Take a hint, your understanding of game mechanics has been lost, or never existed. Shame that player from 2013 doesn't understand basics, and only looks at things from a narrow CW point of view. Add selective memory, and we have a complete train-wreck of an argument.
Let me ask you this, as a BiS DPS GWF/CW/HR, who will buff me more, an average DO who doesn't need bondings on me, or average AC who need for me to have bondings?
No, it shows that you have double standards. When you want to limit other classes to one role it's ok. But when the same suggestion applied to your class, then you go Ad-hominem.
I literally wrote one tank, one healer, one controller and the rest are the dps. Now you accuse me of having double standards simply because I state that you don't understand anything about the CW. You state that a CW can spec as a controller. CW is a controller! Ergo CONTROL Wizard in the name. Problem is that circa MOD6 controlling options are void in epic dungeons.
Again, a hint : Many CWs miss controlling and strategic options. Many GWFs miss having an Arcane Singularity above their head, allowing them to attack better. Stating that you can take a CW as a controller as if it's even an option is ludicrous at best and has been like so since MOD6. And this isn't a feat-oriented problem. CWs by default have many controlling options. The content itself, where it matters, makes that entire mechanic null and void by mitigating it almost completely. Furthermore, Control Wizard DO more damage on the controlled targets. Again, it's the core principle of the class.
Stating that a CW can spec as a Controller is an oxymoron.
As for 4 x CW in the party, an easy fix ; Put a blockade to having more than one controller in the team. As for inviting TRs in the party, we had ours to deal tremendous single target damage on the bosses. TRs were boss destroyers, practically. And why not? Impossible to catch and a variety of the single-target attacks. The reason why TRs got nerfed to the ground was because of the PvP, not PvE. Those super-speedy TRs? They still exist and you can still slot 2 x Speed feature bonuses alongside with the Primal (or Pilgrim?) shoes which allow bonus speed. Or a bunch of Agile item of this and that. And when they enter the stealth, run speed increases, so...yeah, I don't think that is the reason why TRs got nerfed. Infiltrators are still super speedy. And the main reason why control got nerfed? Again, PvP.
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Left the Game due to heavy Damage Control & Missing Spanish Language
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micky1p00Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 3,594Arc User
No, it shows that you have double standards. When you want to limit other classes to one role it's ok. But when the same suggestion applied to your class, then you go Ad-hominem.
I literally wrote one tank, one healer, one controller and the rest are the dps. Now you accuse me of having double standards simply because I state that you don't understand anything about the CW. You state that a CW can spec as a controller. CW is a controller! Ergo CONTROL Wizard in the name. Problem is that circa MOD6 controlling options are void in epic dungeons.
Again, a hint : Many CWs miss controlling and strategic options. Many GWFs miss having an Arcane Singularity above their head, allowing them to attack better. Stating that you can take a CW as a controller as if it's even an option is ludicrous at best and has been like so since MOD6. And this isn't a feat-oriented problem. CWs by default have many controlling options. The content itself, where it matters, makes that entire mechanic null and void by mitigating it almost completely. Furthermore, Control Wizard DO more damage on the controlled targets. Again, it's the core principle of the class.
Stating that a CW can spec as a Controller is an oxymoron.
Then lets have CW being capable of only being a controller, nothing else, not debuff, not DPS. rework MoF to fire colored controller, and SS to lightning colored controller, make 2 paths obsolete and you get one class one role. Will this be ok for you?
I'll guess not. But this is what you asked for other classes to be. DC only heals, GF only tanks... no?
BTW it's not an oxymoron, for oxymoron you need opposites.
I've said that your statement of Tank must only tank etc.. is... not good.
Why? Do you need a tank to play volleyball, too? Like, this is DnD mate. If you're going to build a tanky class you won't be buffing him with INT build, for one. You will invest in the CON and HP is there for a meaning to tank and protect the squishier classes. The squishier classes are there to take the initiative and deal the damage.
How from that you got to here? Shortest path from one statement to a stramwen in 12 parsecs?
Cringe.
Yes, I'm talking about it in the context of the current meta. You're yet to provide a solid anser as in to why having multiple classes and multiple class roles - suck? Why should all classes succumb to the 2 classes = DPS and BUFF? Let me answer to that SW rhetoric with this one : It's like putting different cars with different engines to finish a race together equipped with Nitrous DC. Some engines will work better and thus they'll end up the line quicker. If you make all of them to compete and when some of the cars simply underperform in the race, who are you going to bet on your money?
Oh and mod2, the mod of /LF 1 TR experienced. Where experienced meant to know how to shortcut to campfires so the members can 'beam up' there. Mod2, when everyone saw Vals underwear. Mod2, when the need moar CW for CN started. Mod2, when you took CW to SP to push mobs to lava, and mod2 when all you needed is was enough arcane singularities per minute.
But what I know, I just started to play few months ago...
Yes, TRs outperformed and, yes, there will always be some sort of an exploit to finish something quicker than before. People are smart like that. And there are always people who report those and developers fix them.
It is the same reason why channels which played the game as intended by the devs were made, too. So you need to put that on the + side on your list, too.
There were people who weren't going to use an exploit, but then again addressing the problem took quite a long time and exploit was sort of a given. In normal circumstances it would be fixed in a week or so.
Now, talking about that Space Strawman which connects the universe of your witty-wannabe StarWars and StarTrek jokes, how exactly your "argument" that people used exploits suggest that class mechanics were NOT better back then? The controlling power was once one of the mandatory things to have in a group. Right now the controlling methods are completely void. How is that OK to you?
I joined in Mod 3, so cannot speak for previous mods, but apart from the amusing repel mobs off edges, like SP or even DV, CC only became truly important during mod 6 when Cryptic were struggling to realise they had created minion level archers that could one shot even the toughest tanks. Walking into eCC with a single CW who 'didn't do CC' I was reliant in that run from a single TR's Smoke Bomb. Before that and after they finally fixed the Arp stacking issue on enemy mobs CC hasn't ever been as important.
Cryptic appear not to have the resources, labour or money to cope with many variations in classes. Look at SW and TR still awaiting balance checks, mod 13 will bring SW balance, but they've spent all that time and money on fixing the class into obscurity when they could have just rebalanced it in the beginning.
TR who knows when their balance is coming.
New classes? Get over it, they can't seem to balance the classes they have right now and although I'd love to see Bard/Druid/Monk (in that order, bite me!) I don't see how it's possisble in the current landscape.
So personally I'm FOR class roles. But we will not likely see that either as the current queue mechanism cannot undertstand if a DPS role is in fact a healer, same with GF, it cannot decide and will never be able to decide if a GF is a tank or a dps role, especially since you can build a Conc GF to be a full tank but builds like that will never be DPS let alone HDPS, but they can finish a boss if they are the last man standing, but not Ras Nsi or Orcus in TONG due to the nechanics involved.
EDIT: Btw, INT is or can be a very important stat for buffer GF's. If you can reduce your ITF cooldown to 7 seconds, party has 100% ITF uptime, the only way you're going to get that is by investing in INT.
EDIT EDIT: Also, btw, CON is nowhere near as important as you seem to think of it, I built GF's and OP's with 34 CON (+1 Elixir of Fate, +1 Elven potion), and unlike the godlike hit points I was expecting it's actually pretty damn disappointing. As for Hit points, OP's or GF's 200k hit points and you're golden, I think anyone can hit that.
Ad-hominem again, when proven wrong, and nothing smart left to say.
Sigh...
For you to prove me wrong you'd actually need to address things which I speak about, instead of blatantly making conjectures about things I never spoke of nor accusing me of having double standards simply because of your skewed perception and the difference between what represents "a class" in both of our views.
You fluctuate with your so called "Arguments" so much that you can't even make a valid point without venturing into something completely off and whatmore ironically accusing me of doing the exact thing that you're doing. Try to focus a bit more. We talk about the class balance, not about TRs running half the map. We're talking about class roles, not about people's exploits. I offer you to look at MOD2s party synergy y people who ran validly, and you start spewing some sarcastic spiteful comments about exploits... And then say how I'm conducting some logical fallacy. Gimme a break...
Let's do a few examples and put an end to this charade of yours, shall we?
- When I say that classes need to be diverse the way they were in MOD2, you say that class roles are stupid. And then you switch to explain that each paragon differs to a point, without realizing that what you preach about is pracitcally a sub-class of a particular class, furthermore venturing into the potential class trees as if those represent the class itself. That is a logical fallacy which reflects nothing on the statement that I made. - To counter the argument of MOD2's proper roles by the teammates, you start naming exploits as if those represent the WAI content to which regular players succumb to. That is a logical fallacy that reflects nothing on the statement I made. - The Wizard on its own is a Control class and it receives a bonus damage by default since mod1 for controlling the enemy. A toon can spec for MORE controlling options, but it can't spec "INTO" a controller class since there's really no such thing for a wizard. The Control Wizard is already doing control by default, so stating that a Control Wizard can spec to become a controller is contradictory to itself, thus it's an oxymoron. - The differences between a SpellStorm and MoF come to this : Burst vs DoT. That's all there is to it. Class features and some encounters and dailies. Both are still going to be controllers. A Thaumaturge will be a controller be it a MoF or a SS. A Renegade will be a controller be it a MoF or a SS. An Oppressor will be a controller be it a MoF or a SS. They can all utilize pretty much the same powers which are usually CONTROLLING powers.
The reason why the default mechanic is vague and crippled is due to how the elite mobs were made POST-MOD6. To state in this time and age that a Wizard can "spec into a controller" is ludicrous for the two reasons and I can freely assume that you're just blabbing. 1. Control is super-weak against the elite mobs which is why CWs are forced into DPS in order to be as half as viable as other classes are. 2. You're actually suggesting that a Control Wizard can spec into the Controller, which is an oxymoron since the class itself is a control powerhouse.
The only problem that needs solving is allowing the Elite mobs to be controlled instead to have mitigation of nearly all control. The reason why a CW would spec with feats which offer more control would be threefold - Help the teammates - Make a safer run in the dungeon - Actually make more damage with a proper rotation (so you'd have something to strive for to build and invest in, like Recovery for instance or even a WIS build once in a while).
For the sake of conversation and to prove that I do have good intentions I will ask once again
Why do you think that class roles are stupid or unnecessary? Please, try to be straightforward and actually offer a valid argument without trying to "answer the questions on the universe or existence". Focus. Thanks
True Neutral
Left the Game due to heavy Damage Control & Missing Spanish Language
1
micky1p00Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 3,594Arc User
Ad-hominem again, when proven wrong, and nothing smart left to say.
Sigh...
For you to prove me wrong you'd actually need to address things which I speak about, instead of blatantly making conjectures about things I never spoke of nor accusing me of having double standards simply because of your skewed perception and the difference between what represents "a class" in both of our views.
You fluctuate with your so called "Arguments" so much that you can't even make a valid point without venturing into something completely off and whatmore ironically accusing me of doing the exact thing that you're doing. Try to focus a bit more. We talk about the class balance, not about TRs running half the map. We're talking about class roles, not about people's exploits. I offer you to look at MOD2s party synergy y people who ran validly, and you start spewing some sarcastic spiteful comments about exploits... And then say how I'm conducting some logical fallacy. Gimme a break...
Let's do a few examples and put an end to this charade of yours, shall we?
- When I say that classes need to be diverse the way they were in MOD2, you say that class roles are stupid. And then you switch to explain that each paragon differs to a point, without realizing that what you preach about is pracitcally a sub-class of a particular class, furthermore venturing into the potential class trees as if those represent the class itself. That is a logical fallacy which reflects nothing on the statement that I made. - To counter the argument of MOD2's proper roles by the teammates, you start naming exploits as if those represent the WAI content to which regular players succumb to. That is a logical fallacy that reflects nothing on the statement I made. - The Wizard on its own is a Control class and it receives a bonus damage by default since mod1 for controlling the enemy. A toon can spec for MORE controlling options, but it can't spec "INTO" a controller class since there's really no such thing for a wizard. The Control Wizard is already doing control by default, so stating that a Control Wizard can spec to become a controller is contradictory to itself, thus it's an oxymoron. - The differences between a SpellStorm and MoF come to this : Burst vs DoT. That's all there is to it. Class features and some encounters and dailies. Both are still going to be controllers. A Thaumaturge will be a controller be it a MoF or a SS. A Renegade will be a controller be it a MoF or a SS. An Oppressor will be a controller be it a MoF or a SS. They can all utilize pretty much the same powers which are usually CONTROLLING powers.
The reason why the default mechanic is vague and crippled is due to how the elite mobs were made POST-MOD6. To state in this time and age that a Wizard can "spec into a controller" is ludicrous for the two reasons and I can freely assume that you're just blabbing. 1. Control is super-weak against the elite mobs which is why CWs are forced into DPS in order to be as half as viable as other classes are. 2. You're actually suggesting that a Control Wizard can spec into the Controller, which is an oxymoron since the class itself is a control powerhouse.
The only problem that needs solving is allowing the Elite mobs to be controlled instead to have mitigation of nearly all control. The reason why a CW would spec with feats which offer more control would be threefold - Help the teammates - Make a safer run in the dungeon - Actually make more damage with a proper rotation (so you'd have something to strive for to build and invest in, like Recovery for instance or even a WIS build once in a while).
Lets see, because obviously your reading comprehension is lacking, I'll try to do it really slow, with really simple words.
1. Classes were not diverse in mod2. There was mainly one class in mod2 CW.
2. Exploits were an example that one class was only viable due to them, and not due to class diversity. No one asked for TR for actual DPS. Your statement that in mod2 TR was overpowered has no connection with reality.
3. I've said that limiting a class to single role is not good, if a class can reliably spec into different roles with the proper trade offs, all the better, one need to be obtuse to not to see that. But if you want to call your idea stupid, I wont argue.
4. Controller is not a class, it's role. At least get the basics right.
5. You still don't understand what an oxymoron is. A class named CW specing into Controller role is an option. The fact that you don't understand the difference in CW specs, Opressor for example, while main a CW, is unfortunate and makes this discussion moot.
6. Are you really saying that the only difference between MoF and SS is DoT vs Burst? Or it's supposed be in some context?
7. I've never said that controller is useful, nor that anyone want to spec into one. I've said that as a class it has this role. Same as DC can be a healer. No one needs one but they can do it.
8. The above (7) is an example how your idea of limiting a class to a single role, Controller in CW case would have killed it. What exactly you would have done now with your Controller wizard? Cheer-lead? This is why limiting a class to only single role is stupid. Luckily for you CW also can be speced as Debuffer and as DPS. And those 2 other roles are actually viable.
9. Control powerhouse? Yes... I see the control everywhere... That target capped singularity... That mob spreading Shard, yup, we are indeed in mod2 now... oh wait, 12 it's 12 not 2, you lost a 1.
I do believe that content (Tong / FBI) was implemented due to the demand from the playercommunity , wich asked for endcontent. Devs needed an answer towards all that powercreep and speedkills we witnessed in endless videos and threats. The community asked for endcontent and got it, starting with FBI etc.. Bondings are a big issue in terms of powercreep. My insgnia boni combined with buffed power and rebuff from companion spend rediculess ammounts of recovery same as power 1/4 uptime. Same as the powerrebuff itself from sharing is too much and disbalanced this game and classes significant. I also can´t understand why devs never considered to cap that rebuff first before touching anything else. There really is no good rational answer why they made those bondings dominating the game the way the did/do and why the fomer meta (augment) was left behind that much. Only answer at best was the need or intention to sell those stones to make cash.
I also think classes should be played in their defined roles and powercreep followed by one-sided dungeondesign killed a lot of fun aspects, some roles vanished (Controler) and some are predominant. Stacking buffs in this game do kill a lot of aspects of a dungeon, bossmechanics etc. , apart from the fact that some of those mechanics give me a headache.
1. Wrong. MOD2 was never just about the CW. Stating something like that is stupid at best. 2. Irrelevant and completely off to anything reflecting upon the class balance. Exploits are not the part of the class balance nor a party composition with proper roles. Way off the original statement and third time diverting from the original statement and the question. 3. Try making some sense because it looks like you're arguing with yourself, really. 4. Facepalm
Official description :
"Control Wizards primarily focus on controlling the battlefield and dealing damage to a large number of creatures simultaneously. Because of the wizard's role as a controller, they possess more crowd control options than any other class. Their ability to deal high amounts of damage gives them the secondary role of striker. They wield a magical orb and are capable of unleashing torrents of damage on enemy parties. They can only wear cloth armor."
You still fail to realize that regardless of whether the feats are chosen randomly or specifically, the Control Wizard will always be a controller. Why is that so hard for you to understand is beyond me. Being able to buff a party or deal higher damage are just bonuses, not a class definition nor class role in the party composition. And that class role defines a class.
5. Facepalm
You don't have the option to "spec as a controller", you are by default a Controller when you Click on the "Control Wizard" class in the Class choice menu. You only choices are to use MORE control or less control, but in order to play a wizard you are bound to use the control to your advantage. I cannot explain this enough to you since it appears as it just passes through your head since you're dwelling on an idea that a wizard can only buff people or heal them without actually performing any controlling power to begin with. I can't think of any CW power which isn't a controlling power. Maybe only disintegrate. So, once more no matter what feats you choose you're still a controller class and your role is to be a controller in the group content. The controlling powers are not amiss. It simply doesn't pay off to play a controlling role when facing the elite mobs. In everything else control is a must, not only because it produces a safer gameplay but because it also boosts damage itself thanks to the feats.
6. Read the tooltips for the classes
MoF :
"Many of the Master of Flame Paragon powers add Smolder to your target which deals damage over time. If the target is affected by Chill, it gains a Rimefire aspect, allowing its duration to be refreshed by Chill effects."
The default mechanic of the MoF is DoT and is extremely important in order to play a good MoF.
Do you need me to explain what is Burst damage and what is DoT damage? Is that concept also too hard to grasp?
7. Sigh...At this point I doubt that you'll ever understand. Decide whether your point 4. has any merit to what you preach. Encounters define a class itself. A Control Wizard is a controller class. The role of it is to control the mobs since it's conception. It's as simple as that. Try to get your head around it. Or write 100 times "Control Wizard", perhaps that name will shred some light to you when you reach nirvana in a deep meditation hearing that "Control" ringing in the distance...
8. I chose a Control Wizard not to do insane amounts of damage but to actually play a spin on the usual Wizard nuke role. And it was super-fun to do it. Eventually that changed due to faultiness of the game mechanics, not the class itself. The Class still possesses tremendous controlling power, making it the best controlling class in-game, as it should be. That is it's role and the numerous artifact powers which increase the Controlling power are the evidence for that. The idea is to return that role to become more useful so that only at that precise moment people can actually choose to opt for controlling options more than the dps options. At the current time that's not possible. With controlling option a Wizard of any magnitude would have a place due to offering a unique mechanic to the game which is mob control. I've still to see why that idea is stupid so if you can shed any light on that, I'd more than welcome it.
9. Again, the imminent brilliance of your brain trembles the forum walls. At this point I'm bound to ask - how many Controlling powers do you know which are at CW's disposal? Really, I'm curious to see why are you trying to be that ridiculous? Is that just some attention seeking or are you really that ignorant of the fact that a Control Wizard possesses a variety of the controlling encounters?! I opt for the latter.
And all of this emphasizes that proper roles are much needed because if we'd have that there wouldn't be the outperforming combos of the same class. If you're already that content about the MOD2's exploits, then you should be as content in the given content for the 2 x OP + 2 x DC content since, according to you, that too is considered to be an exploit and not an oversight from the developer's actions which allowed such a thing to happen.
In the end, it is the class that's going to receive the worse end and not the content itself, which is a terrible, terrible idea. If the content continues to offer the dungeons with the same principle, it's going to be a constant race for more damage, faster builds and time attacks at which point people will start asking for competition of the dungeon at a particular time rather than to play the dungeon to their hearts content. That leads to more stress, more bad behavior, elitism and god knows what else can spawn from the current dungeon making situation. To me it is not a wonder that people ask for an easier version of the TONG. It seems only reasonable to do so since, maybe, at that point they'd actually go into a dungeon without thinking how they need a tank or a DC combination in order to experience some fun gaming.
Nice talking to ya, hopefully you'll grow into something more useful and constructive over the time.
True Neutral
Left the Game due to heavy Damage Control & Missing Spanish Language
0
micky1p00Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 3,594Arc User
1. Wrong. MOD2 was never just about the CW. Stating something like that is stupid at best. 2. Irrelevant and completely off to anything reflecting upon the class balance. Exploits are not the part of the class balance nor a party composition with proper roles. Way off the original statement and third time diverting from the original statement and the question. 3. Try making some sense because it looks like you're arguing with yourself, really. 4. Facepalm
Official description :
"Control Wizards primarily focus on controlling the battlefield and dealing damage to a large number of creatures simultaneously. Because of the wizard's role as a controller, they possess more crowd control options than any other class. Their ability to deal high amounts of damage gives them the secondary role of striker. They wield a magical orb and are capable of unleashing torrents of damage on enemy parties. They can only wear cloth armor."
You still fail to realize that regardless of whether the feats are chosen randomly or specifically, the Control Wizard will always be a controller. Why is that so hard for you to understand is beyond me. Being able to buff a party or deal higher damage are just bonuses, not a class definition nor class role in the party composition. And that class role defines a class.
5. Facepalm
You don't have the option to "spec as a controller", you are by default a Controller when you Click on the "Control Wizard" class in the Class choice menu. You only choices are to use MORE control or less control, but in order to play a wizard you are bound to use the control to your advantage. I cannot explain this enough to you since it appears as it just passes through your head since you're dwelling on an idea that a wizard can only buff people or heal them without actually performing any controlling power to begin with. I can't think of any CW power which isn't a controlling power. Maybe only disintegrate. So, once more no matter what feats you choose you're still a controller class and your role is to be a controller in the group content. The controlling powers are not amiss. It simply doesn't pay off to play a controlling role when facing the elite mobs. In everything else control is a must, not only because it produces a safer gameplay but because it also boosts damage itself thanks to the feats.
6. Read the tooltips for the classes
MoF :
"Many of the Master of Flame Paragon powers add Smolder to your target which deals damage over time. If the target is affected by Chill, it gains a Rimefire aspect, allowing its duration to be refreshed by Chill effects."
The default mechanic of the MoF is DoT and is extremely important in order to play a good MoF.
Do you need me to explain what is Burst damage and what is DoT damage? Is that concept also too hard to grasp?
7. Sigh...At this point I doubt that you'll ever understand. Decide whether your point 4. has any merit to what you preach. Encounters define a class itself. A Control Wizard is a controller class. The role of it is to control the mobs since it's conception. It's as simple as that. Try to get your head around it. Or write 100 times "Control Wizard", perhaps that name will shred some light to you when you reach nirvana in a deep meditation hearing that "Control" ringing in the distance...
8. I chose a Control Wizard not to do insane amounts of damage but to actually play a spin on the usual Wizard nuke role. And it was super-fun to do it. Eventually that changed due to faultiness of the game mechanics, not the class itself. The Class still possesses tremendous controlling power, making it the best controlling class in-game, as it should be. That is it's role and the numerous artifact powers which increase the Controlling power are the evidence for that. The idea is to return that role to become more useful so that only at that precise moment people can actually choose to opt for controlling options more than the dps options. At the current time that's not possible. With controlling option a Wizard of any magnitude would have a place due to offering a unique mechanic to the game which is mob control. I've still to see why that idea is stupid so if you can shed any light on that, I'd more than welcome it.
9. Again, the imminent brilliance of your brain trembles the forum walls. At this point I'm bound to ask - how many Controlling powers do you know which are at CW's disposal? Really, I'm curious to see why are you trying to be that ridiculous? Is that just some attention seeking or are you really that ignorant of the fact that a Control Wizard possesses a variety of the controlling encounters?! I opt for the latter.
And all of this emphasizes that proper roles are much needed because if we'd have that there wouldn't be the outperforming combos of the same class. If you're already that content about the MOD2's exploits, then you should be as content in the given content for the 2 x OP + 2 x DC content since, according to you, that too is considered to be an exploit and not an oversight from the developer's actions which allowed such a thing to happen.
In the end, it is the class that's going to receive the worse end and not the content itself, which is a terrible, terrible idea. If the content continues to offer the dungeons with the same principle, it's going to be a constant race for more damage, faster builds and time attacks at which point people will start asking for competition of the dungeon at a particular time rather than to play the dungeon to their hearts content. That leads to more stress, more bad behavior, elitism and god knows what else can spawn from the current dungeon making situation. To me it is not a wonder that people ask for an easier version of the TONG. It seems only reasonable to do so since, maybe, at that point they'd actually go into a dungeon without thinking how they need a tank or a DC combination in order to experience some fun gaming.
Nice talking to ya, hopefully you'll grow into something more useful and constructive over the time.
You know what is the difference between us. I can provide actual argument. You can only do Ad-hominem, trying to insult, time after time, yet you fail even at this. Oh and can quote tooltips.
"With controlling option a Wizard of any magnitude would have a place due to offering a unique mechanic to the game which is mob control. I've still to see why that idea is stupid so if you can shed any light on that, I'd more than welcome it."
How about you take reading classes. At this point, I'm 100% sure that you just a troll, and even bad at that. Go quote me, where i've said that a CW as controller is stupid idea. Go go go... I've said that your wise and brilliant idea is akin to making a CW only controller in all it's specs, as in making it useless in all other roles without an option to take any other role. Yes like you you say that you have speced. I'm sure you are really useful in end-game now. You Controller Wizard Looked for in every run.
Ah and it shows your great understanding of game mechanics when you don't even understand that there is a much better controller class than CW. Guess what class it is.
I've tried with simple sentences and simple words, but looks like you can't comprehend those either.. No luck there.
0
kreatyveMember, Neverwinter Moderator, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 10,545Community Moderator
And, at this point, I believe the thread has ran it's course. It has devolved into circular arguments and flaming. So closing it up.
My opinions are my own. I do not work for PWE or Cryptic. - Forum Rules - Protector's Enclave Discord - I play on Xbox Any of my comments not posted in orange are based on my own personal opinion and not official. Any messages written in orange are official moderation messages. Signature images are now fixed!
Comments
Given all of this, how could anyone not see an issue and not support a fix to bonding. Oh yeah, because everyone wants to be overpowered when there is no need for it.
Ran FBI yesterday with a group and no one used bonding. I was the lone DC. Than we ran with bondings. Same group ran it on Monday. The variance in time is not as significant as many believe. Playing your character to a high level matters more. The run without using bonding took a bit more time, roughly 10 more minutes. The run with the adjusted bonding took 5 more minutes than it did on Monday.
I remember spending 3-6 hours in dungeons in other games and walking away with nothing. So an hour or less, and getting seals is not that bad of a thing.
GWF - 1 choice, Slam
OP - 1 choice, Tankadin
GF - Maybe 2 choices (Conq/Tac)
HR - Maybe 2 choices (Com/Trap)
DC - 2 choices (AC/DO)
CW - 3 choices (AoE/ST/MoF)
SW - 2 choices if you can get in (AoE/ST)
TR - 1 choice if you can get in
While there is obviously room for changing a few things in the builds here and there, nearly all of those are DPS builds
Sure, nobody is forcing anyone to limit their build choices to 1 or 2 things... you can play however you want... but the game's design has made certain very specific choices obviously better than others, and that is bad design
It's all about DPS... If your class can't bring the deeps, you have to buff the DDs so they can bring moar deeps
The only true role anymore belongs to the tanks, because they actually have a few chances here and there to manage aggro while they buff... everybody else is responsible for DPS with a few utility jobs every once and a while
There is no healing needed and there is no control (for players) allowed and there's really not a huge difference between classes other than what buttons you are supposed to push
...and then half the folks on the forums are crying for class balance because everybody wants their easy button
The game could be designed to promote many different types of playstyles for each class, but it simply does not... most classes have paragon paths that make no sense in any situation
Before you go to the history of bondings, you may want to actually read the history of bondings, it should be all here, in the forums, preview.
O righteous one.
And wait, if there is no difference in bondings in time, what is all the noise about? BTW you should try for better analysis do the test in MC.
Providing content that forces us to focus on DPS alone is putting us in a box
I don't see any issue of GF (now we will see everyone jump in with their HAMSTER on fire) going as DPS or as Tank, as long as it's not both at the same time. And even better if queue can support this, the same way OP can slot as tank and as healer. It's a balance of trade offs, you want to spec as tank, go for it, but the trade off is lousy dps (for example). You want to spec your CW as controller, sure, less DPS, less debuff for you, you want debuff, then no dps, no control. You get the point, is it hard to do? Not much, the main thing that should happen is that the higher tear feats and capstones to be more specialized and more significant.
The addition of a single t3 feat column and 10 more points at mod 6 was a huge mistake. Many thought there will be additional tree added, but instead the more points than tree depth encouraged cross feating, instead of path specialization.
Don't mistake this "should be" and what is now, those are not the same, but the discussion was about the direction of what we/some "want". I'm for diversity in spec, even if one not needed now, like healer for DC as long as the trade offs are balanced, which right now they are far far from being so. And against class specialization, for example GF can only tank in all it's possible specs.
Yes, I'm talking about it in the context of the current meta. You're yet to provide a solid anser as in to why having multiple classes and multiple class roles - suck? Why should all classes succumb to the 2 classes = DPS and BUFF? Let me answer to that SW rhetoric with this one : It's like putting different cars with different engines to finish a race together equipped with Nitrous DC. Some engines will work better and thus they'll end up the line quicker. If you make all of them to compete and when some of the cars simply underperform in the race, who are you going to bet on your money? So you are aware of the 4 support + 1 dps issue and you still try to pretend like I said something alien...Sigh Yes, TRs outperformed and, yes, there will always be some sort of an exploit to finish something quicker than before. People are smart like that. And there are always people who report those and developers fix them.
It is the same reason why channels which played the game as intended by the devs were made, too. So you need to put that on the + side on your list, too.
There were people who weren't going to use an exploit, but then again addressing the problem took quite a long time and exploit was sort of a given. In normal circumstances it would be fixed in a week or so.
Now, talking about that Space Strawman which connects the universe of your witty-wannabe StarWars and StarTrek jokes, how exactly your "argument" that people used exploits suggest that class mechanics were NOT better back then? The controlling power was once one of the mandatory things to have in a group. Right now the controlling methods are completely void. How is that OK to you?
Healer and Control Roles are dead on arrival because the game has made that decision for us
I agree that building for a role should be a trade off, and I agree that each class should be able to have several viable options, but as you said, we have "content issue(s)"
Thanks to broken Companion's Gift, we are playing as a bunch of Supermans... and the devs response is to build dungeons that only Supermans can finish, which is "How the hell power creep is responsible for hard bosses" and its only going to get worse if they keep being stubborn about building only one kind of new content
I'm also yet to provide the answer to the universe, life and everything.
Or what is the estimated the airspeed velocity of an unladen swallow.
Luckily all those were not the topic, and was not for me to answer. To the question of why limiting a class to only a single role in all it's specs is bad, I indeed answered. But I think, that with little thinking anyone can understand that game retention lives on diversity and ability to adapt. Pretended? Did you read the thread? I'm not sure you are trolling or not. I guess it is, because the other option is not a compliment. My posts are hard to miss, go few pages back, and look at posts with a lot of text... See, this is how I know you played CW at mod2. TRs were invited ONLY to skip content. Never as anything else. List of what? BTW I was a mod in that channel. Woohoo for me.. Doesn't change the fact that the game was so screwed that you picked classes by their ability to exploit content. That was "the balance, of mod2". Should I tell you why in mod2 in VT everyone went ranged? I'll give you a hint, it had to do with looking under Vals skirt. In the 5 years the game exists, exploits were never fixed in a week or so.. We can open a discussion as to why this happens, but even in the most technical standpoint of view you can look at build dates, and until relativly recently the build to live cycle was 3 weeks.
3 weeks is eternity in terms of exploit. Simple, because everyone who can't control were not welcome. And you know who those were? Everyone who is not CW. I know selective memory is selective, but that's how it was. CN was 4CW game, and it started back then.
Oh, and certified witty-wannabe for you. You can call me Dr.witty-wannabe. I have wonnabe PHD in wittiness.
This was not an increase by 10 of the power creep, it was 0 change of the power creep.
When you are a superman and your enemies are superman, then you are just a normal dude in a bar brawl. This is fundamental.
End game content will always be only viable to end-game players. This has nothing to do with power creep, this is tiered content, and the linear progression in MMO. You start as pleb, fighting plebs, usually in every RPG it will be rats, and your single aim is to get to be a 'god' fighting 'gods', this is how every single progression game is made, from the first mud crawlers 20 years ago, and BG1 Fallout1 etc.. to todays MMOs.
You can blame multiple interactions over many things, but as was already provided in the pre-merged thread, power (the stat) is not direct damage, and people think that the big power numbers are bigger than some buffs, which they are not, and then we have a pitchfork crusade. The problem in power (not the stat) disparity is not bondings (in groups). There are much more significant factors and they were discussed here, until the thread was merged and derailed.
Take a hint : preechr got it completely correct and understands what's wrong with the game.
Take a hint, your understanding of game mechanics has been lost, or never existed. Shame that player from 2013 doesn't understand basics, and only looks at things from a narrow CW point of view. Add selective memory, and we have a complete train-wreck of an argument.
Let me ask you this, as a BiS DPS GWF/CW/HR, who will buff me more, an average DO who doesn't need bondings on me, or average AC who need for me to have bondings?
Again, a hint : Many CWs miss controlling and strategic options. Many GWFs miss having an Arcane Singularity above their head, allowing them to attack better. Stating that you can take a CW as a controller as if it's even an option is ludicrous at best and has been like so since MOD6. And this isn't a feat-oriented problem. CWs by default have many controlling options. The content itself, where it matters, makes that entire mechanic null and void by mitigating it almost completely.
Furthermore, Control Wizard DO more damage on the controlled targets. Again, it's the core principle of the class.
Stating that a CW can spec as a Controller is an oxymoron.
As for 4 x CW in the party, an easy fix ; Put a blockade to having more than one controller in the team.
As for inviting TRs in the party, we had ours to deal tremendous single target damage on the bosses. TRs were boss destroyers, practically. And why not? Impossible to catch and a variety of the single-target attacks. The reason why TRs got nerfed to the ground was because of the PvP, not PvE. Those super-speedy TRs? They still exist and you can still slot 2 x Speed feature bonuses alongside with the Primal (or Pilgrim?) shoes which allow bonus speed. Or a bunch of Agile item of this and that. And when they enter the stealth, run speed increases, so...yeah, I don't think that is the reason why TRs got nerfed. Infiltrators are still super speedy. And the main reason why control got nerfed? Again, PvP.
Will this be ok for you?
I'll guess not. But this is what you asked for other classes to be. DC only heals, GF only tanks... no?
BTW it's not an oxymoron, for oxymoron you need opposites.
- You
- The Game
Cryptic appear not to have the resources, labour or money to cope with many variations in classes. Look at SW and TR still awaiting balance checks, mod 13 will bring SW balance, but they've spent all that time and money on fixing the class into obscurity when they could have just rebalanced it in the beginning.
TR who knows when their balance is coming.
New classes? Get over it, they can't seem to balance the classes they have right now and although I'd love to see Bard/Druid/Monk (in that order, bite me!) I don't see how it's possisble in the current landscape.
So personally I'm FOR class roles. But we will not likely see that either as the current queue mechanism cannot undertstand if a DPS role is in fact a healer, same with GF, it cannot decide and will never be able to decide if a GF is a tank or a dps role, especially since you can build a Conc GF to be a full tank but builds like that will never be DPS let alone HDPS, but they can finish a boss if they are the last man standing, but not Ras Nsi or Orcus in TONG due to the nechanics involved.
EDIT:
Btw, INT is or can be a very important stat for buffer GF's. If you can reduce your ITF cooldown to 7 seconds, party has 100% ITF uptime, the only way you're going to get that is by investing in INT.
EDIT EDIT:
Also, btw, CON is nowhere near as important as you seem to think of it, I built GF's and OP's with 34 CON (+1 Elixir of Fate, +1 Elven potion), and unlike the godlike hit points I was expecting it's actually pretty damn disappointing. As for Hit points, OP's or GF's 200k hit points and you're golden, I think anyone can hit that.
For you to prove me wrong you'd actually need to address things which I speak about, instead of blatantly making conjectures about things I never spoke of nor accusing me of having double standards simply because of your skewed perception and the difference between what represents "a class" in both of our views.
You fluctuate with your so called "Arguments" so much that you can't even make a valid point without venturing into something completely off and whatmore ironically accusing me of doing the exact thing that you're doing. Try to focus a bit more. We talk about the class balance, not about TRs running half the map. We're talking about class roles, not about people's exploits. I offer you to look at MOD2s party synergy y people who ran validly, and you start spewing some sarcastic spiteful comments about exploits... And then say how I'm conducting some logical fallacy. Gimme a break...
Let's do a few examples and put an end to this charade of yours, shall we?
- When I say that classes need to be diverse the way they were in MOD2, you say that class roles are stupid. And then you switch to explain that each paragon differs to a point, without realizing that what you preach about is pracitcally a sub-class of a particular class, furthermore venturing into the potential class trees as if those represent the class itself. That is a logical fallacy which reflects nothing on the statement that I made.
- To counter the argument of MOD2's proper roles by the teammates, you start naming exploits as if those represent the WAI content to which regular players succumb to. That is a logical fallacy that reflects nothing on the statement I made.
- The Wizard on its own is a Control class and it receives a bonus damage by default since mod1 for controlling the enemy. A toon can spec for MORE controlling options, but it can't spec "INTO" a controller class since there's really no such thing for a wizard. The Control Wizard is already doing control by default, so stating that a Control Wizard can spec to become a controller is contradictory to itself, thus it's an oxymoron.
- The differences between a SpellStorm and MoF come to this : Burst vs DoT. That's all there is to it. Class features and some encounters and dailies. Both are still going to be controllers. A Thaumaturge will be a controller be it a MoF or a SS. A Renegade will be a controller be it a MoF or a SS. An Oppressor will be a controller be it a MoF or a SS. They can all utilize pretty much the same powers which are usually CONTROLLING powers.
The reason why the default mechanic is vague and crippled is due to how the elite mobs were made POST-MOD6.
To state in this time and age that a Wizard can "spec into a controller" is ludicrous for the two reasons and I can freely assume that you're just blabbing.
1. Control is super-weak against the elite mobs which is why CWs are forced into DPS in order to be as half as viable as other classes are.
2. You're actually suggesting that a Control Wizard can spec into the Controller, which is an oxymoron since the class itself is a control powerhouse.
The only problem that needs solving is allowing the Elite mobs to be controlled instead to have mitigation of nearly all control.
The reason why a CW would spec with feats which offer more control would be threefold
- Help the teammates
- Make a safer run in the dungeon
- Actually make more damage with a proper rotation (so you'd have something to strive for to build and invest in, like Recovery for instance or even a WIS build once in a while).
For the sake of conversation and to prove that I do have good intentions I will ask once again
Why do you think that class roles are stupid or unnecessary? Please, try to be straightforward and actually offer a valid argument without trying to "answer the questions on the universe or existence". Focus. Thanks
1. Classes were not diverse in mod2. There was mainly one class in mod2 CW.
2. Exploits were an example that one class was only viable due to them, and not due to class diversity. No one asked for TR for actual DPS. Your statement that in mod2 TR was overpowered has no connection with reality.
3. I've said that limiting a class to single role is not good, if a class can reliably spec into different roles with the proper trade offs, all the better, one need to be obtuse to not to see that. But if you want to call your idea stupid, I wont argue.
4. Controller is not a class, it's role. At least get the basics right.
5. You still don't understand what an oxymoron is. A class named CW specing into Controller role is an option. The fact that you don't understand the difference in CW specs, Opressor for example, while main a CW, is unfortunate and makes this discussion moot.
6. Are you really saying that the only difference between MoF and SS is DoT vs Burst? Or it's supposed be in some context?
7. I've never said that controller is useful, nor that anyone want to spec into one. I've said that as a class it has this role. Same as DC can be a healer. No one needs one but they can do it.
8. The above (7) is an example how your idea of limiting a class to a single role, Controller in CW case would have killed it. What exactly you would have done now with your Controller wizard? Cheer-lead? This is why limiting a class to only single role is stupid. Luckily for you CW also can be speced as Debuffer and as DPS. And those 2 other roles are actually viable.
9. Control powerhouse? Yes... I see the control everywhere... That target capped singularity... That mob spreading Shard, yup, we are indeed in mod2 now... oh wait, 12 it's 12 not 2, you lost a 1.
The community asked for endcontent and got it, starting with FBI etc..
Bondings are a big issue in terms of powercreep. My insgnia boni combined with buffed power and rebuff from companion spend rediculess ammounts of recovery same as power 1/4 uptime. Same as the powerrebuff itself from sharing is too much and disbalanced this game and classes significant.
I also can´t understand why devs never considered to cap that rebuff first before touching anything else.
There really is no good rational answer why they made those bondings dominating the game the way the did/do and why the fomer meta (augment) was left behind that much. Only answer at best was the need or intention to sell those stones to make cash.
I also think classes should be played in their defined roles and powercreep followed by one-sided dungeondesign killed a lot of fun aspects, some roles vanished (Controler) and some are predominant.
Stacking buffs in this game do kill a lot of aspects of a dungeon, bossmechanics etc. , apart from the fact that some of those mechanics give me a headache.
2. Irrelevant and completely off to anything reflecting upon the class balance. Exploits are not the part of the class balance nor a party composition with proper roles. Way off the original statement and third time diverting from the original statement and the question.
3. Try making some sense because it looks like you're arguing with yourself, really.
4. Facepalm
Official description :
"Control Wizards primarily focus on controlling the battlefield and dealing damage to a large number of creatures simultaneously. Because of the wizard's role as a controller, they possess more crowd control options than any other class. Their ability to deal high amounts of damage gives them the secondary role of striker. They wield a magical orb and are capable of unleashing torrents of damage on enemy parties. They can only wear cloth armor."
You still fail to realize that regardless of whether the feats are chosen randomly or specifically, the Control Wizard will always be a controller. Why is that so hard for you to understand is beyond me. Being able to buff a party or deal higher damage are just bonuses, not a class definition nor class role in the party composition. And that class role defines a class.
5. Facepalm
You don't have the option to "spec as a controller", you are by default a Controller when you Click on the "Control Wizard" class in the Class choice menu. You only choices are to use MORE control or less control, but in order to play a wizard you are bound to use the control to your advantage. I cannot explain this enough to you since it appears as it just passes through your head since you're dwelling on an idea that a wizard can only buff people or heal them without actually performing any controlling power to begin with. I can't think of any CW power which isn't a controlling power. Maybe only disintegrate. So, once more
6. Read the tooltips for the classes
MoF :
"Many of the Master of Flame Paragon powers add Smolder to your target which deals damage over time. If the target is affected by Chill, it gains a Rimefire aspect, allowing its duration to be refreshed by Chill effects."
The default mechanic of the MoF is DoT and is extremely important in order to play a good MoF.
Do you need me to explain what is Burst damage and what is DoT damage? Is that concept also too hard to grasp?
7. Sigh...At this point I doubt that you'll ever understand. Decide whether your point 4. has any merit to what you preach. Encounters define a class itself. A Control Wizard is a controller class. The role of it is to control the mobs since it's conception. It's as simple as that. Try to get your head around it. Or write 100 times "Control Wizard", perhaps that name will shred some light to you when you reach nirvana in a deep meditation hearing that "Control" ringing in the distance...
8. I chose a Control Wizard not to do insane amounts of damage but to actually play a spin on the usual Wizard nuke role. And it was super-fun to do it. Eventually that changed due to faultiness of the game mechanics, not the class itself. The Class still possesses tremendous controlling power, making it the best controlling class in-game, as it should be. That is it's role and the numerous artifact powers which increase the Controlling power are the evidence for that. The idea is to return that role to become more useful so that only at that precise moment people can actually choose to opt for controlling options more than the dps options. At the current time that's not possible. With controlling option a Wizard of any magnitude would have a place due to offering a unique mechanic to the game which is mob control. I've still to see why that idea is stupid so if you can shed any light on that, I'd more than welcome it.
9. Again, the imminent brilliance of your brain trembles the forum walls. At this point I'm bound to ask - how many Controlling powers do you know which are at CW's disposal? Really, I'm curious to see why are you trying to be that ridiculous? Is that just some attention seeking or are you really that ignorant of the fact that a Control Wizard possesses a variety of the controlling encounters?! I opt for the latter.
And all of this emphasizes that proper roles are much needed because if we'd have that there wouldn't be the outperforming combos of the same class. If you're already that content about the MOD2's exploits, then you should be as content in the given content for the 2 x OP + 2 x DC content since, according to you, that too is considered to be an exploit and not an oversight from the developer's actions which allowed such a thing to happen.
In the end, it is the class that's going to receive the worse end and not the content itself, which is a terrible, terrible idea. If the content continues to offer the dungeons with the same principle, it's going to be a constant race for more damage, faster builds and time attacks at which point people will start asking for competition of the dungeon at a particular time rather than to play the dungeon to their hearts content. That leads to more stress, more bad behavior, elitism and god knows what else can spawn from the current dungeon making situation. To me it is not a wonder that people ask for an easier version of the TONG. It seems only reasonable to do so since, maybe, at that point they'd actually go into a dungeon without thinking how they need a tank or a DC combination in order to experience some fun gaming.
Nice talking to ya, hopefully you'll grow into something more useful and constructive over the time.
"With controlling option a Wizard of any magnitude would have a place due to offering a unique mechanic to the game which is mob control. I've still to see why that idea is stupid so if you can shed any light on that, I'd more than welcome it."
How about you take reading classes. At this point, I'm 100% sure that you just a troll, and even bad at that. Go quote me, where i've said that a CW as controller is stupid idea. Go go go...
I've said that your wise and brilliant idea is akin to making a CW only controller in all it's specs, as in making it useless in all other roles without an option to take any other role. Yes like you you say that you have speced. I'm sure you are really useful in end-game now.
You Controller Wizard Looked for in every run.
Ah and it shows your great understanding of game mechanics when you don't even understand that there is a much better controller class than CW. Guess what class it is.
I've tried with simple sentences and simple words, but looks like you can't comprehend those either.. No luck there.
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