1. To finish the PvP campaign, one had to kill 1000 NPCs during the pvp phase. Meaning the giants. That requirement was so poorly designed that I know of person who just wanted the pirate set, and just quit the game over the impossibility to get it in any timely fashion. Ironically that same player, who is very strict, e.g. he convinced me to discard a bunch of unbound radiant augmentation stones, but would probably be flagged as a bot now because he was invoking every 20 hours (invoking worked differently back then) to shove time of the first angel 365 days (which he sold for 40mil).
Just a little tangent, but that was why he quit? Oh, my heart. What a loss.
To some allegation that are similar to "If you are BiS you must have botted", or "Those people with tensers..", or "Legendary mount prices are due to botting" I've meticulously saved every salvageable item for the next double AD (if/when it comes) since the last one. One can buy a legendary mount (although the ugliest and the most useless one, but still) for the sum saved. So to all you nay-sayers, put 500k USD where your claims are, and I'll get to BiS with fresh account and stream every second of it. Feel free to open a kickstarter for the purpose.
I don't doubt that it can be done. Projects already exist for showing how far you can get without monetary investment.
Simple solution, limit character slots to 10. Then the players would be playing in the way you want them to and it being easier for you to see whos a bot and who just does this manually. One of the means characters being able to make ad on their own would be having 20+ alts and you need more money right, then finding a way to cut players farming while also bots ability to farm would be a 2 in 1 solution. That way they can clearly see which accounts are bots and which are not.
Im sorry but after reading all that, i still have no clue what a dedicated player is, or what makes a player fall into this category? which one should we pick among those definitions from dictionary, since afterall its, i think, the main reason of this topic?
-believing that something is very important and giving a lot of time and energy to it - designed to be used for one particular purpose - Wholly committed to a particular course of thought or action; devoted
Ok, just realised the irony of those 3 definitions considering the context the word dedicated was used but couldnt find any other one.
I'm pretty sure what they meant is people that are willing to do tasks that they deemed too menial and assumed only a bot would do. Like do all invokes on say 20 characters as well as leadership every day. Their net was set to catch some of this, and clearly it went too far and got people who were truly doing this stuff manually.
Just to be clear though, I know of some folks that were banned (and unbanned) that had 7-15 characters and weren't this "dedicated". So I suspect whatever they set it to, caught some very casual folk too. I think this is why so many folks are scratching their heads at this ban wave. There were some folks that simply shouldn't have been caught up in this period. They were neither botters, nor "dedicated" power gamers with too much time on their hands.
People claim lots of things on the internet. Only Customer Service knows for sure what evidence they have to support a specific ban.
Very true. But the silence of Cryptic is the most efficient rumor feeding machine I can think of. Information (not from the mods who claim to have not insights) would IMO be better than letting rumors get to where they are.
“A lie can run round the world before the truth has got its boots on.” ― Terry Pratchett, The Truth [sic]
Imaginary Friends are the best friends you can have!
On a side note, back during the HeyRogers AMA several years ago, Foundry authors were called the game's "most dedicated players." Given where things have gone with that feature, I wouldn't put too much weight behind that particular instance of the phrasing. None the less, it is important to note for historic purposes. It is troublesome to classify players as "dedicated" because the question arises "How are they considered as such?" Do they login daily, play for X hours? Do they spend a certain amount in the Zen market? Have they played fairly consistent for X years? Have they participated in all game features? Have they sacrificed their grind to create content for other players? There are almost endless ways to classify a player as "dedicated," so it's important that the phrasing is clarified. There are several concerns raised through the course of this thread, it will be interesting to see what response it generates officially.
"I don't know, I'm making it up as I go..." Featured Foundry Quest:Whispers of an Ancient Evil [v3] - NW-DQ4WKW6ZG Foundry Quest: Harper Chronicles: Blacklake - NW-DCPA4W2Q5
Since the term "dedicated" is pretty clearly part of a statement that cleverly tries to mask the fact that they have banned innocents, I wouldn't put too much weight on it. I personally do think some were released despite suspicious behavior, but that's only part of the truth behind the term.
CS now handing out 14-day VIP as compensation for the error they made by the way. So there's your confirmation of the mess-up. Hope that will finally silence the ignorance.
You have to do something, to get banned, slow clap. Thats obvious. But you dont have to do something, that is against the TOS, to get banned. That is the problem.
You might think, that this is irrelevant, but my questions are very real and I am quite sure, that many long time players feel the same. Here are some scenarios:
You have 20-50 chars with LS maxed. You invoke and reset professions manually. Do you have to fear, to get banned for doing so, bc they think you are a bot?
You have quartermaster enchants and you use the bound RP, to upgrade stuff, selling the unbound stuff. Waiting for a good price you stockpiled stacks. 2xRP, for some reason the price goes up. You sell 50 stacks of R5s and R4s. This one time. Will you get banned, bc you sell XY stacks, bc only bots can have this amount of RP, ignoring the fact, that you farmed for 6 month.
How can u be sure that x player got banned due RP
Do have access to game logs? Nop, So how can u be sure that they didn't use bot?. You so confident, yet don't have game logs..
Next, do u think staff don't and didn't count in possible ways to farm stuffs... Don't think that you are only one who know stuffs how game goes..
And now most important thing, being famous, don't give u any special privilege to use bot, and get away without ban.
As for other part,, well it's kinda tradition, that some players try defend bots. It's always fun to read their philosophical post how they try think, do bot using is cheating XD
I dont need their game logs, bc I know them for years, we speak in TS and we are open about most things. I knew players, who used bots and got banned. If they would have used bots, I would not argue, but banning legit players for playing is plain wrong.
BTW, I dont know, if you think, that all other players are stupid. I read about a guy, who got banned with 200 kk AD on his account. If someone would really use bots, he would do so on another account, not to lose his gear/ cash
Do have access to game logs? Nop, So how can u be sure that they didn't use bot?. You so confident, yet don't have game logs..
Next, do u think staff don't and didn't count in possible ways to farm stuffs... Don't think that you are only one who know stuffs how game goes..
And now most important thing, being famous, don't give u any special privilege to use bot, and get away without ban.
As for other part,, well it's kinda tradition, that some players try defend bots. It's always fun to read their philosophical post how they try think, do bot using is cheating XD
I dont need their game logs, bc I know them for years, we speak in TS and we are open about most things. I knew players, who used bots and got banned. If they would have used bots, I would not argue, but banning legit players for playing is plain wrong.
And would you betray own friends? Would you report them if they would use bot? I don't think so. Now also look to your claims from other view point.. Or better lets do case/scenario.
X player have friends, Let say A, B and C. They all 3 used bots. Got banned.. And x player claim that they are innocent. < Lets say we unban them based on x players claims. Then some other players start doing same. SO eventually all banned players, even who obviously do used bots would be unbanned. Only by some friends claims..
When you investigating, you don't go after friends claims. You look to facts, and facts are game logs< Only they either prove guilty or your innocence. And thats what it where done. Their account got locked/banned in procces.. After extra investigation ban where removed. So what u want more? Candy with 15 lines long apology letter? Or what?
Do u think others didn't got banned? Do u think others are less important than your case? I had friend who where also banned, and after investigation ban where removed. And no complains from him.
BTW, I dont know, if you think, that all other players are stupid. I read about a guy, who got banned with 200 kk AD on his account. If someone would really use bots, he would do so on another account, not to lose his gear/ cash
Speaking about smart and yet stupid players..
20 min ago one of my alliance member notice player. 13k GS TR< using bot in Siege of neverwinter area. < He use certain powers . And he haven't moved from same spot for 5++ min. I reported him via GM help> players behavior.
Now, he is 13k TR, legendary weapon, legendary arti gear set. < as same would say, legit/dedicated NWO player.. And here u have he use bot. I have screenshot with his ID<.
p.s @nitocris83, @mimicking#6533 , and other devs. Please implement feature< or extra line in GM help to report suspected players. Not only me, but friends from fiendlist and alliance could shoot dozen of bots every day..
======================================================================== “The masses have never thirsted after truth. Whoever can supply them with illusions is easily their master; whoever attempts to destroy their illusions is always their victim. Gustave Le Bon. ==================================================
20 min ago one of my alliance member notice player. 13k GS TR< using bot in Siege of neverwinter area. < He use certain powers . And he haven't moved from same spot for 5++ min. I reported him via GM help> players behavior.
Now, he is 13k TR, legendary weapon, legendary arti gear set. < as same would say, legit/dedicated NWO player.. And here u have he use bot. I have screenshot with his ID<.
p.s @nitocris83, @mimicking#6533 , and other devs. Please implement feature< or extra line in GM help to report suspected players. Not only me, but friends from fiendlist and alliance could shoot dozen of bots every day.. </p>
And this is where you go off the rails. A player standing still for a long period only using abilities may be a bot, or in fact more likely be someone doing something on a second monitor and only switching back when mobs spawn. The reason the second is more likely is that actual bots have no trouble running around for hours at a time whereas actual players have limits to prolonged activity. The reliable methods for behavioral spotting are mostly either observing someone following an exact path repeatedly or players stuck on walls and jumping off cliffs.
The gist of this is you likely submitted a false report and are requesting a feature to make false flagging easier.
P.S. In the time it took this the toon I'd left in game had reflected two groups of mobs dead, no third party software involved. But then I suppose your definition of botting is "anything too boring for me to do"
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tripsofthrymrMember, Neverwinter Moderator, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,624Community Moderator
What if they spent hours alting doing _________ while watching shows or movies? What amount of time spent alting is considered "couldn't possibly do without automation" because you can do hours of alting without automation.
None of the moderators have insight about what Cryptic logs, what they used in their analysis, or where/how they drew the line. Any analysis of logged behavior will draw the line somewhere. You'll either err far on the side that the account certainly must have botted (allowing some bots to slip through) or you'll draw the line more aggressively, catching players that spend tons of time in-game.
The best long-term solution is to redesign certain aspects of the game to reduce the incentive for real players to bot while increasing rewards for activities that are fun and/or hard to automate. Make it much harder for RMT advertising in-game to reduce profit from professional/commercial botting. Any such redesign would come at the expense of new content (PVP improvement, Foundry, new class, new adventure zones) and would be far from trivial.
Also I'm pretty sure I had you on friends list, maybe this data also included who community moderators felt was alting too much hence why all the casualties.
The moderators were as surprised as the rest of the player community by the bans (we're players too that also help on the forums). We learned about them at the same time everyone else did. If one of us wants to report suspected bot behavior, we do that like every other player, and our report doesn't carry any "but I'm a moderator" tag with it. Cryptic knows how much time a player spends online far better than a moderator watching their friends list.
20 min ago one of my alliance member notice player. 13k GS TR< using bot in Siege of neverwinter area. < He use certain powers . And he haven't moved from same spot for 5++ min. I reported him via GM help> players behavior.
Now, he is 13k TR, legendary weapon, legendary arti gear set. < as same would say, legit/dedicated NWO player.. And here u have he use bot. I have screenshot with his ID<.
p.s @nitocris83, @mimicking#6533 , and other devs. Please implement feature< or extra line in GM help to report suspected players. Not only me, but friends from fiendlist and alliance could shoot dozen of bots every day.. </p>
And this is where you go off the rails. A player standing still for a long period only using abilities may be a bot, or in fact more likely be someone doing something on a second monitor and only switching back when mobs spawn. The reason the second is more likely is that actual bots have no trouble running around for hours at a time whereas actual players have limits to prolonged activity. The reliable methods for behavioral spotting are mostly either observing someone following an exact path repeatedly or players stuck on walls and jumping off cliffs.
The gist of this is you likely submitted a false report and are requesting a feature to make false flagging easier.
P.S. In the time it took this the toon I'd left in game had reflected two groups of mobs dead, no third party software involved. But then I suppose your definition of botting is "anything too boring for me to do"
THIS!
It should not be understated: Just because you can't imagine personally wanting to do something in a certain way doesn't mean anyone that does must be a bot.
I watch TV while I play. Sometimes I walk away from my comp because someone calls me or knocks on my door. Other times I'll be on the forums or playing a browser game, alt-tabbed with my character idling somewhere. I'll miss pms. I'll randomly be walking into a wall because I forgot to turn off auto-walk. My toon logs out due to idle usually at least once a day, sometimes more.
I don't intentionally AFK farm, but if I happen AFK in the middle of RD, SH, or Siege Battlefield, most of my characters can stay alive while my companion / reflect takes care of any mobs that bump into me. I rarely come back to a dead toon.
And for Siege Battlefield in particular. The mobs are so wimpy. It actually makes a fair amount of sense to stand around on a spawn point and spam an AoE power once in a while with one hand while I use my other hand to play mobile games. Or smoke. Or channel surf. I'm definitely not a bot, but it sounds like you would report me as one?
And this is where you go off the rails. A player standing still for a long period only using abilities may be a bot, or in fact more likely be someone doing something on a second monitor and only switching back when mobs spawn. The reason the second is more likely is that actual bots have no trouble running around for hours at a time whereas actual players have limits to prolonged activity. The reliable methods for behavioral spotting are mostly either observing someone following an exact path repeatedly or players stuck on walls and jumping off cliffs.
The gist of this is you likely submitted a false report and are requesting a feature to make false flagging easier.
10 min period<. He didn't moved, and keep repeating >Smoke bomb< encounter. IF he wouldn't spam this encounter then it would be as u say. But, he spamed< thats mean once cool down ends he use it.
Next, bot players are not yet stupid. This one perhaps intended keep his profile low. Less running around = less chance be noticed.
Now one thing to remind. Prior this last mass ban wave. Do neverwinter online had any game security feature? The answer is no.
So perhaps this dude simply didn't read forum, and didn't notice that now NWO have implemented bot hunting feature.. So he tough, that no one will take any actions. After all, in previous/last siege of neverwinter, there where countless bots who farmed stronghold vouchers. Yet there where no mass bannings at all.
Also what he would do, he would come with same stuffs as some guys already did.. Write that legit/dedicated players would never use bot, and this is nonsense.
Now for end of post,, I just remind, that he is suspected, that mean only after staffs investigation would be clear,... However, you should agree that this bot using become like NWO cancer. And lot of guys don't like that they would not be able use them freely anymore.
======================================================================== “The masses have never thirsted after truth. Whoever can supply them with illusions is easily their master; whoever attempts to destroy their illusions is always their victim. Gustave Le Bon. ==================================================
10 min period<. He didn't moved, and keep repeating >Smoke bomb< encounter. IF he wouldn't spam this encounter then it would be as u say. But, he spamed< thats mean once cool down ends he use it.
Why are you sure that is a bot and not a human spamming a key on the keyboard while watching TV?
I've literally done this exact behavior in a variety of maps that encourage grinding mob consistent spawns (smoke on TR, BL on OP, ST on CW, sunburst on DC, WMS on GWF, ET on GF). Siege is especially conducive, since big mobs spawn in a couple known locations and they are not strong enough to warrant _any_ attention from an end-game geared player. But they drop vouchers, and we all need vouchers.
So if I play the game with one hand and 5% of my attention, would you report me as a bot?
10 min period<. He didn't moved, and keep repeating >Smoke bomb< encounter. IF he wouldn't spam this encounter then it would be as u say. But, he spamed< thats mean once cool down ends he use it.
Why are you sure that is a bot and not a human spamming a key on the keyboard while watching TV?
I've literally done this exact behavior in a variety of maps that encourage grinding mob consistent spawns (smoke on TR, BL on OP, ST on CW, sunburst on DC, WMS on GWF, ET on GF). Siege is especially conducive, since big mobs spawn in a couple known locations and they are not strong enough to warrant _any_ attention from an end-game geared player. But they drop vouchers, and we all need vouchers.
So if I play the game with one hand and 5% of my attention, would you report me as a bot?
The counter attack HE in siege is the perfect example. You'll see 5+ players sitting on one spawn spamming a couple skills without moving. And there's no reason not to because it's the best way to get vouchers.
1
beckylunaticMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 14,231Arc User
edited May 2017
Aka, why players keep hammering the point that attaching the best (or at least most consistent rewards) to gameplay that is completely mindless has created a bot-friendly environment.
I don't doubt that it's much harder to make things that are best handled by a fully engaged human player, but there is a very strong relationship between controlling the botting problem and the thread about the terrible, horrible, no-good, very bad rewards in Spellplague.
I've literally done this exact behavior in a variety of maps that encourage grinding mob consistent spawns (smoke on TR, BL on OP, ST on CW, sunburst on DC, WMS on GWF, ET on GF). Siege is especially conducive, since big mobs spawn in a couple known locations and they are not strong enough to warrant _any_ attention from an end-game geared player. But they drop vouchers, and we all need vouchers.
So if I play the game with one hand and 5% of my attention, would you report me as a bot?
You guys bring just insane excuse. Guy watch TV and hold button for cast Smoke bomb encountter. Come one,, at least be more creative. Also, the spot where not the best one. Also there where group of monsters/invaders which none one take down at all.
Now imagine, you have larger group near u, Would u keep hitting with AoE just 3 or 4 targers. Or hit 8+ targets? Obviously u would pick area who have more targets...
However this guy where smart one. HE spam smoke bomb not far from counter attacking HE. And group of invaders pass his spot. In other words. if there is event up< then u get profit. but when there is no HE up, u losing profits..
And now, if that player would watch Tv, read book, draw manga/anime, or is just drunk, he would still pick larger enemies group spawning place.
And CW mostly use icy terrain, charget up ST for 13k GS player is nonsense. U need fast aoe, and plus u need that it would remain for some time.
As for vouchers. My friend, seems u look to one puzzle peace, yet don't see whole picture. Now What u get from donating vouchers? Guild points, from temporal traders/merchants within Stronghold u buy or exchange materials for higher grade materials. Mastercraft materials have it's value within auction house. . Tear 1 craft materials which u get from gathering process, cost not so much. But after crafting, or tear 2 materials< like [Concentrated Aqua Regia] from alchemy it cost over 100k AD. But remember that all mastercraft stuffs are united in many ways, U want craft [Gilded Ledger] for final mastercraft alchemy quest. U need have other proffesions mastercraft materials too.
Also remember, these vouchers don't have expire time, so u can keep untill x2 guild point event and get even x2 profit.
So this is good way earn AD. Actually x8 more profitable than use bot for any other stuffs.
As for reporting... Now look, would u ignore 8 monsters group, easy marks. U just need 4 steps away from your position, cast power, and get back. Would u go and get extra possible profit, or sit still and ignore them? That dude over ignore that. Now alliance member notice him. And by his explanation I understand that player stand there for more than 5 min before I was noticed. Then 2 min till I get there, and next 5 or 8 min after I got there. So u have more than 10 min, and in that time, he didn't moved even 1 inch. At first 3 min though he is lagging, but after this long time repeating same stuffs. Ignoring near him standing easy points.
So if u stand in same place, and keep repeating same power over and over for 10min +< I would report without hesitation. And only staff after checking logs will decide do it used bots or not.
======================================================================== “The masses have never thirsted after truth. Whoever can supply them with illusions is easily their master; whoever attempts to destroy their illusions is always their victim. Gustave Le Bon. ==================================================
I've literally done this exact behavior in a variety of maps that encourage grinding mob consistent spawns (smoke on TR, BL on OP, ST on CW, sunburst on DC, WMS on GWF, ET on GF). Siege is especially conducive, since big mobs spawn in a couple known locations and they are not strong enough to warrant _any_ attention from an end-game geared player. But they drop vouchers, and we all need vouchers.
So if I play the game with one hand and 5% of my attention, would you report me as a bot?
You guys bring just insane excuse. Guy watch TV and hold button for cast Smoke bomb encountter. Come one,, at least be more creative. Also, the spot where not the best one. Also there where group of monsters/invaders which none one take down at all.
Now imagine, you have larger group near u, Would u keep hitting with AoE just 3 or 4 targers. Or hit 8+ targets? Obviously u would pick area who have more targets...
However this guy where smart one. HE spam smoke bomb not far from counter attacking HE. And group of invaders pass his spot. In other words. if there is event up< then u get profit. but when there is no HE up, u losing profits..
And now, if that player would watch Tv, read book, draw manga/anime, or is just drunk, he would still pick larger enemies group spawning place.
And CW mostly use icy terrain, charget up ST for 13k GS player is nonsense. U need fast aoe, and plus u need that it would remain for some time.
As for vouchers. My friend, seems u look to one puzzle peace, yet don't see whole picture. Now What u get from donating vouchers? Guild points, from temporal traders/merchants within Stronghold u buy or exchange materials for higher grade materials. Mastercraft materials have it's value within auction house. . Tear 1 craft materials which u get from gathering process, cost not so much. But after crafting, or tear 2 materials< like [Concentrated Aqua Regia] from alchemy it cost over 100k AD. But remember that all mastercraft stuffs are united in many ways, U want craft [Gilded Ledger] for final mastercraft alchemy quest. U need have other proffesions mastercraft materials too.
Also remember, these vouchers don't have expire time, so u can keep untill x2 guild point event and get even x2 profit.
So this is good way earn AD. Actually x8 more profitable than use bot for any other stuffs.
I think you're missing my point.
I don't care about optimal placement etc. because if I sit there spamming I can do other fun stuff with my brain while still making (sub-optimal but still noticeable) profit.
I'm not saying this particular person is 100% not a bot. I'm saying that I've done 100% the behavior that you described and I am 100% not a bot. So my conclusion is that your criteria for determining if someone is a bot are not effective at discriminating bots from legit players who are just barely paying attention to the game.
The key here is that I'm not paying much attention to the game. I don't notice if I'm killing 1 or 2 or 3 mobs or swinging in the air for a few seconds or even a few minutes. I don't notice if there are 1,000 mobs a few feet away because I'm not looking closely at the screen. I mute sound, forget about the camera (if I'm in a dark room I'll look up to the sky so I don't have stupid bright flashing lights) and spam away.
BTW if you position yourself well enough mobs come to you it doesn't matter fast or slow AOE. I don't like IT for this on CW because if god forbid I freeze em they stop taking damage and someone else comes along and deals the final blow. ST has no such problem, and at high level does enough damage to kill even the big mobs.
Finally, I agree that you can make decent money from guild marks etc. That, plus SH progression (I want to help my guild). And absentmindedly spam-farming them on Siege map is a depressingly effective way of doing both. Like Becky said, that's a design problem that really encourages botting.
But it also encourages mindless bot-like behavior from real players too. I'm going to watch my daily TV shows, why not spam away and get a couple dozen vouchers out of it per show?
0
beckylunaticMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 14,231Arc User
I wouldn't try to make an argument that nobody bots Siege vouchers, or nobody bots with utility enchants, or invoking, or professions.
You're missing the forest for the trees. Botting or bot-like gameplay are rewarding. Activities that require the player to be fully aware and on the ball... frequently are not.
That's a problem that needs to be addressed by design, not by shifting the burden onto players to continue doing those same things, but make sure they don't do them too much or Big Brother will get you.
As long as there are people playing NW who have (but are not limited to) autism spectrum disorders, OCD, insomnia, AD(H)D, and any number of physical disabilities that prevent them from working, you're going to see real live human players who exhibit farming behavior that exceeds "normal" gameplay (define "normal"). Because that's what they do, either to fill time or because it's kind of compulsive. And we're not here to argue about balancing mental and physical health and videogaming, only that the criteria for identifying automation vs. "actually just plays a lot" is flawed.
kreatyveMember, Neverwinter Moderator, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 10,545Community Moderator
In case a few people missed the stream - this recent ban of bot waves wasn't for "appearing to be playing while afk" as these past few comments have been discussing. Julia's comment on the stream stated that the botting was defined as "any behavior that defies the laws of physics and human biology". So, if a player is doing more button presses than is humanly possible, that would flag it. Probably so any account that has characters actively playing without a break to sleep would probably trigger it as well. I'm sure there are other things, but that's the jist of what I understand from that statement.
My opinions are my own. I do not work for PWE or Cryptic. - Forum Rules - Protector's Enclave Discord - I play on Xbox Any of my comments not posted in orange are based on my own personal opinion and not official. Any messages written in orange are official moderation messages. Signature images are now fixed!
7
plasticbatMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 12,456Arc User
In case a few people missed the stream - this recent ban of bot waves wasn't for "appearing to be playing while afk" as these past few comments have been discussing. Julia's comment on the stream stated that the botting was defined as "any behavior that defies the laws of physics and human biology". So, if a player is doing more button presses than is humanly possible, that would flag it. Probably so any account that has characters actively playing without a break to sleep would probably trigger it as well. I'm sure there are other things, but that's the jist of what I understand from that statement.
Hmmm! When I am opening enchanted coffer, I always think I am clicking the mouse in a rate that is not humanly possible and because of that I broke a costly gaming mouse.
*** The game can read your mind. If you want it, you won't get it. If you don't expect to get it, you will. ***
0
tripsofthrymrMember, Neverwinter Moderator, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,624Community Moderator
edited May 2017
Make your point. Make your counter-point. If the other guy just won't agree, move on. Let's keep this thread productive and not let it devolve into flaming..
In case a few people missed the stream - this recent ban of bot waves wasn't for "appearing to be playing while afk" as these past few comments have been discussing. Julia's comment on the stream stated that the botting was defined as "any behavior that defies the laws of physics and human biology". So, if a player is doing more button presses than is humanly possible, that would flag it. Probably so any account that has characters actively playing without a break to sleep would probably trigger it as well. I'm sure there are other things, but that's the jist of what I understand from that statement.
Hmmm! When I am opening enchanted coffer, I always think I am clicking the mouse in a rate that is not humanly possible and because of that I broke a costly gaming mouse.
I feel your pain there... the left button on my $120 gaming mouse now double clicks every time I single click, and it tends to do it "faster than humanly possible". So I ended up remapping one of the side buttons as a left click because I got tired of opening packs I was trying to drag to the AH to sell. While I'm not sure, I don't know that opening packs triggered the bot detection.
My opinions are my own. I do not work for PWE or Cryptic. - Forum Rules - Protector's Enclave Discord - I play on Xbox Any of my comments not posted in orange are based on my own personal opinion and not official. Any messages written in orange are official moderation messages. Signature images are now fixed!
0
plasticbatMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 12,456Arc User
In case a few people missed the stream - this recent ban of bot waves wasn't for "appearing to be playing while afk" as these past few comments have been discussing. Julia's comment on the stream stated that the botting was defined as "any behavior that defies the laws of physics and human biology". So, if a player is doing more button presses than is humanly possible, that would flag it. Probably so any account that has characters actively playing without a break to sleep would probably trigger it as well. I'm sure there are other things, but that's the jist of what I understand from that statement.
Hmmm! When I am opening enchanted coffer, I always think I am clicking the mouse in a rate that is not humanly possible and because of that I broke a costly gaming mouse.
I feel your pain there... the left button on my $120 gaming mouse now double clicks every time I single click, and it tends to do it "faster than humanly possible". So I ended up remapping one of the side buttons as a left click because I got tired of opening packs I was trying to drag to the AH to sell. While I'm not sure, I don't know that opening packs triggered the bot detection.
Wait! Thank you, you probably gave me an idea to salvage that mouse. No AD though.
*** The game can read your mind. If you want it, you won't get it. If you don't expect to get it, you will. ***
In case a few people missed the stream - this recent ban of bot waves wasn't for "appearing to be playing while afk" as these past few comments have been discussing. Julia's comment on the stream stated that the botting was defined as "any behavior that defies the laws of physics and human biology". So, if a player is doing more button presses than is humanly possible, that would flag it. Probably so any account that has characters actively playing without a break to sleep would probably trigger it as well. I'm sure there are other things, but that's the jist of what I understand from that statement.
Thanks for the note from the stream
I wasn't trying to imply afk-playing had anything to do with the banwave, I was just pushing back against bloodyspamer's assuming players are bots when they are behaving just like I sometimes do!
FWIW, I get Julia's point. But I've definitely stayed up 24hrs+ playing a video game (called in sick to work, yes the game just launched, yes I feel some amount of shame about it). I know their systems could account for that, or look for patterns of behavior.
BUT: At this point it's undeniable that they screwed up with how they set those criteria. There are clear reports of ban reversals including apologies and VIP days credits. So it follows that they were mistaken about the limits of "the laws of physics and human biology" for this banwave. It's perfectly understandable that many folks are on edge about that. What's to say that their adjusted criteria will work better? All we have is hope, because there's no evidence to be had (nor could there really be without a dramatic change in customer service management objectives and communications strategy). I hope I don't happen to arbitrarily defy their magical criteria next time
FINALLY: If you accept (as you really should, at this point) that they made some mistakes, then you should also accept that there are innocent players that were harmed by this. Some didn't know how to reach out to support, or didn't use the right delicate political approach in navigating CS. They gave up, we lost them. Perhaps next time there appears to be an issue with ban criteria, the CM and mods could more proactively entertain that possibility and assist confused newbies in following the right channels for escalation.
1
beckylunaticMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 14,231Arc User
This is a very serious question to pose to the devs:
How actively harmful could it be to create utility functions such as an "open all" button for various types of containers, if you consider that you're inevitably going to have some number of accounts that automate that function anyway? And that we can click through them reallydamnfast so it might not be the best criteria for trying to determine who's a bot and who's just been saving their boxes for 6 months and is now panicking, even though it can be really bad for our hardware like computer mice... and tendons.
Not doing it is hard on humans (and mice), and makes no difference to bots. Doing it is beneficial to humans, and makes no difference to bots. Or that's how I see it, anyway.
This 2xRP I had a total of about 5000 refinement bags to open, made from running leadership on all 7 characters.
I was about a quarter of the way through clicking like mad on the 'open' button before I realised that just holding it down caused it to pop through them just as fast lol.
Please Do Not Feed The Trolls
Xael De Armadeon: DC
Xane De Armadeon: CW
Zen De Armadeon: OP
Zohar De Armadeon: TR
Chrion De Armadeon: SW
Gosti Big Belly: GWF
Barney McRustbucket: GF
Lt. Thackeray: HR
Lucius De Armadeon: BD
In case a few people missed the stream - this recent ban of bot waves wasn't for "appearing to be playing while afk" as these past few comments have been discussing. Julia's comment on the stream stated that the botting was defined as "any behavior that defies the laws of physics and human biology". So, if a player is doing more button presses than is humanly possible, that would flag it. Probably so any account that has characters actively playing without a break to sleep would probably trigger it as well. I'm sure there are other things, but that's the jist of what I understand from that statement.
Sure. Then why does cryptic allow and support the use of a naga mouse? And not just once either. If you actively promote people to use that kind of stuff, you can hardly complain they actually use it and then ban them for it, can you? And then not even anticipating such a response from the community to a poorly executed banwave is even more insulting. I have people in my guild who haven't had a reply in over a week. And they don't even use Naga-like mouses. And you expect people to be civil about it? Give me a break.
Comments
Neverwinter Census 2017
All posts pending disapproval by Cecilia
Just to be clear though, I know of some folks that were banned (and unbanned) that had 7-15 characters and weren't this "dedicated". So I suspect whatever they set it to, caught some very casual folk too. I think this is why so many folks are scratching their heads at this ban wave. There were some folks that simply shouldn't have been caught up in this period. They were neither botters, nor "dedicated" power gamers with too much time on their hands.
Wow we're solving mysteries here. RIP @dardove
But the silence of Cryptic is the most efficient rumor feeding machine I can think of.
Information (not from the mods who claim to have not insights) would IMO be better than letting rumors get to where they are.
“A lie can run round the world before the truth has got its boots on.” ― Terry Pratchett, The Truth [sic]
It is troublesome to classify players as "dedicated" because the question arises "How are they considered as such?" Do they login daily, play for X hours? Do they spend a certain amount in the Zen market? Have they played fairly consistent for X years? Have they participated in all game features? Have they sacrificed their grind to create content for other players? There are almost endless ways to classify a player as "dedicated," so it's important that the phrasing is clarified. There are several concerns raised through the course of this thread, it will be interesting to see what response it generates officially.
Featured Foundry Quest: Whispers of an Ancient Evil [v3] - NW-DQ4WKW6ZG
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CS now handing out 14-day VIP as compensation for the error they made by the way. So there's your confirmation of the mess-up. Hope that will finally silence the ignorance.
BTW, I dont know, if you think, that all other players are stupid. I read about a guy, who got banned with 200 kk AD on his account. If someone would really use bots, he would do so on another account, not to lose his gear/ cash
And would you betray own friends? Would you report them if they would use bot? I don't think so.
Now also look to your claims from other view point.. Or better lets do case/scenario.
X player have friends, Let say A, B and C. They all 3 used bots. Got banned.. And x player claim that they are innocent. <
Lets say we unban them based on x players claims. Then some other players start doing same. SO eventually all banned players, even who obviously do used bots would be unbanned. Only by some friends claims..
When you investigating, you don't go after friends claims. You look to facts, and facts are game logs< Only they either prove guilty or your innocence. And thats what it where done. Their account got locked/banned in procces.. After extra investigation ban where removed.
So what u want more? Candy with 15 lines long apology letter? Or what?
Do u think others didn't got banned? Do u think others are less important than your case? I had friend who where also banned, and after investigation ban where removed. And no complains from him.
Speaking about smart and yet stupid players..
20 min ago one of my alliance member notice player. 13k GS TR< using bot in Siege of neverwinter area. < He use certain powers . And he haven't moved from same spot for 5++ min. I reported him via GM help> players behavior.
Now, he is 13k TR, legendary weapon, legendary arti gear set. < as same would say, legit/dedicated NWO player.. And here u have he use bot. I have screenshot with his ID<.
p.s @nitocris83, @mimicking#6533 , and other devs. Please implement feature< or extra line in GM help to report suspected players.
Not only me, but friends from fiendlist and alliance could shoot dozen of bots every day..
“The masses have never thirsted after truth. Whoever can supply them with illusions is easily their master; whoever attempts to destroy their illusions is always their victim.
Gustave Le Bon.
==================================================
The gist of this is you likely submitted a false report and are requesting a feature to make false flagging easier.
P.S. In the time it took this the toon I'd left in game had reflected two groups of mobs dead, no third party software involved. But then I suppose your definition of botting is "anything too boring for me to do"
The best long-term solution is to redesign certain aspects of the game to reduce the incentive for real players to bot while increasing rewards for activities that are fun and/or hard to automate. Make it much harder for RMT advertising in-game to reduce profit from professional/commercial botting. Any such redesign would come at the expense of new content (PVP improvement, Foundry, new class, new adventure zones) and would be far from trivial. The moderators were as surprised as the rest of the player community by the bans (we're players too that also help on the forums). We learned about them at the same time everyone else did. If one of us wants to report suspected bot behavior, we do that like every other player, and our report doesn't carry any "but I'm a moderator" tag with it. Cryptic knows how much time a player spends online far better than a moderator watching their friends list.
Sci-fi author: The Gods We Make, The Gods We Seek, and Ji-min
It should not be understated: Just because you can't imagine personally wanting to do something in a certain way doesn't mean anyone that does must be a bot.
I watch TV while I play. Sometimes I walk away from my comp because someone calls me or knocks on my door. Other times I'll be on the forums or playing a browser game, alt-tabbed with my character idling somewhere. I'll miss pms. I'll randomly be walking into a wall because I forgot to turn off auto-walk. My toon logs out due to idle usually at least once a day, sometimes more.
I don't intentionally AFK farm, but if I happen AFK in the middle of RD, SH, or Siege Battlefield, most of my characters can stay alive while my companion / reflect takes care of any mobs that bump into me. I rarely come back to a dead toon.
And for Siege Battlefield in particular. The mobs are so wimpy. It actually makes a fair amount of sense to stand around on a spawn point and spam an AoE power once in a while with one hand while I use my other hand to play mobile games. Or smoke. Or channel surf. I'm definitely not a bot, but it sounds like you would report me as one?
Next, bot players are not yet stupid. This one perhaps intended keep his profile low. Less running around = less chance be noticed.
Now one thing to remind. Prior this last mass ban wave. Do neverwinter online had any game security feature? The answer is no.
So perhaps this dude simply didn't read forum, and didn't notice that now NWO have implemented bot hunting feature.. So he tough, that no one will take any actions. After all, in previous/last siege of neverwinter, there where countless bots who farmed stronghold vouchers. Yet there where no mass bannings at all.
Also what he would do, he would come with same stuffs as some guys already did.. Write that legit/dedicated players would never use bot, and this is nonsense.
Now for end of post,, I just remind, that he is suspected, that mean only after staffs investigation would be clear,... However, you should agree that this bot using become like NWO cancer. And lot of guys don't like that they would not be able use them freely anymore.
“The masses have never thirsted after truth. Whoever can supply them with illusions is easily their master; whoever attempts to destroy their illusions is always their victim.
Gustave Le Bon.
==================================================
I've literally done this exact behavior in a variety of maps that encourage grinding mob consistent spawns (smoke on TR, BL on OP, ST on CW, sunburst on DC, WMS on GWF, ET on GF). Siege is especially conducive, since big mobs spawn in a couple known locations and they are not strong enough to warrant _any_ attention from an end-game geared player. But they drop vouchers, and we all need vouchers.
So if I play the game with one hand and 5% of my attention, would you report me as a bot?
I don't doubt that it's much harder to make things that are best handled by a fully engaged human player, but there is a very strong relationship between controlling the botting problem and the thread about the terrible, horrible, no-good, very bad rewards in Spellplague.
Ed: Corrected my literary reference.
Neverwinter Census 2017
All posts pending disapproval by Cecilia
Now imagine, you have larger group near u, Would u keep hitting with AoE just 3 or 4 targers. Or hit 8+ targets? Obviously u would pick area who have more targets...
However this guy where smart one. HE spam smoke bomb not far from counter attacking HE. And group of invaders pass his spot. In other words. if there is event up< then u get profit. but when there is no HE up, u losing profits..
And now, if that player would watch Tv, read book, draw manga/anime, or is just drunk, he would still pick larger enemies group spawning place.
And CW mostly use icy terrain, charget up ST for 13k GS player is nonsense. U need fast aoe, and plus u need that it would remain for some time.
As for vouchers. My friend, seems u look to one puzzle peace, yet don't see whole picture.
Now What u get from donating vouchers? Guild points, from temporal traders/merchants within Stronghold u buy or exchange materials for higher grade materials. Mastercraft materials have it's value within auction house. . Tear 1 craft materials which u get from gathering process, cost not so much. But after crafting, or tear 2 materials< like [Concentrated Aqua Regia] from alchemy it cost over 100k AD.
But remember that all mastercraft stuffs are united in many ways, U want craft [Gilded Ledger] for final mastercraft alchemy quest. U need have other proffesions mastercraft materials too.
Also remember, these vouchers don't have expire time, so u can keep untill x2 guild point event and get even x2 profit.
So this is good way earn AD. Actually x8 more profitable than use bot for any other stuffs.
As for reporting... Now look, would u ignore 8 monsters group, easy marks. U just need 4 steps away from your position, cast power, and get back. Would u go and get extra possible profit, or sit still and ignore them?
That dude over ignore that. Now alliance member notice him. And by his explanation I understand that player stand there for more than 5 min before I was noticed. Then 2 min till I get there, and next 5 or 8 min after I got there. So u have more than 10 min, and in that time, he didn't moved even 1 inch. At first 3 min though he is lagging, but after this long time repeating same stuffs. Ignoring near him standing easy points.
So if u stand in same place, and keep repeating same power over and over for 10min +< I would report without hesitation.
And only staff after checking logs will decide do it used bots or not.
“The masses have never thirsted after truth. Whoever can supply them with illusions is easily their master; whoever attempts to destroy their illusions is always their victim.
Gustave Le Bon.
==================================================
I don't care about optimal placement etc. because if I sit there spamming I can do other fun stuff with my brain while still making (sub-optimal but still noticeable) profit.
I'm not saying this particular person is 100% not a bot. I'm saying that I've done 100% the behavior that you described and I am 100% not a bot. So my conclusion is that your criteria for determining if someone is a bot are not effective at discriminating bots from legit players who are just barely paying attention to the game.
The key here is that I'm not paying much attention to the game. I don't notice if I'm killing 1 or 2 or 3 mobs or swinging in the air for a few seconds or even a few minutes. I don't notice if there are 1,000 mobs a few feet away because I'm not looking closely at the screen. I mute sound, forget about the camera (if I'm in a dark room I'll look up to the sky so I don't have stupid bright flashing lights) and spam away.
BTW if you position yourself well enough mobs come to you it doesn't matter fast or slow AOE. I don't like IT for this on CW because if god forbid I freeze em they stop taking damage and someone else comes along and deals the final blow. ST has no such problem, and at high level does enough damage to kill even the big mobs.
Finally, I agree that you can make decent money from guild marks etc. That, plus SH progression (I want to help my guild). And absentmindedly spam-farming them on Siege map is a depressingly effective way of doing both. Like Becky said, that's a design problem that really encourages botting.
But it also encourages mindless bot-like behavior from real players too. I'm going to watch my daily TV shows, why not spam away and get a couple dozen vouchers out of it per show?
You're missing the forest for the trees. Botting or bot-like gameplay are rewarding. Activities that require the player to be fully aware and on the ball... frequently are not.
That's a problem that needs to be addressed by design, not by shifting the burden onto players to continue doing those same things, but make sure they don't do them too much or Big Brother will get you.
As long as there are people playing NW who have (but are not limited to) autism spectrum disorders, OCD, insomnia, AD(H)D, and any number of physical disabilities that prevent them from working, you're going to see real live human players who exhibit farming behavior that exceeds "normal" gameplay (define "normal"). Because that's what they do, either to fill time or because it's kind of compulsive. And we're not here to argue about balancing mental and physical health and videogaming, only that the criteria for identifying automation vs. "actually just plays a lot" is flawed.
Neverwinter Census 2017
All posts pending disapproval by Cecilia
Any of my comments not posted in orange are based on my own personal opinion and not official.
Any messages written in orange are official moderation messages. Signature images are now fixed!
Sci-fi author: The Gods We Make, The Gods We Seek, and Ji-min
Any of my comments not posted in orange are based on my own personal opinion and not official.
Any messages written in orange are official moderation messages. Signature images are now fixed!
I wasn't trying to imply afk-playing had anything to do with the banwave, I was just pushing back against bloodyspamer's assuming players are bots when they are behaving just like I sometimes do!
FWIW, I get Julia's point. But I've definitely stayed up 24hrs+ playing a video game (called in sick to work, yes the game just launched, yes I feel some amount of shame about it). I know their systems could account for that, or look for patterns of behavior.
BUT: At this point it's undeniable that they screwed up with how they set those criteria. There are clear reports of ban reversals including apologies and VIP days credits. So it follows that they were mistaken about the limits of "the laws of physics and human biology" for this banwave. It's perfectly understandable that many folks are on edge about that. What's to say that their adjusted criteria will work better? All we have is hope, because there's no evidence to be had (nor could there really be without a dramatic change in customer service management objectives and communications strategy). I hope I don't happen to arbitrarily defy their magical criteria next time
FINALLY: If you accept (as you really should, at this point) that they made some mistakes, then you should also accept that there are innocent players that were harmed by this. Some didn't know how to reach out to support, or didn't use the right delicate political approach in navigating CS. They gave up, we lost them. Perhaps next time there appears to be an issue with ban criteria, the CM and mods could more proactively entertain that possibility and assist confused newbies in following the right channels for escalation.
How actively harmful could it be to create utility functions such as an "open all" button for various types of containers, if you consider that you're inevitably going to have some number of accounts that automate that function anyway? And that we can click through them reallydamnfast so it might not be the best criteria for trying to determine who's a bot and who's just been saving their boxes for 6 months and is now panicking, even though it can be really bad for our hardware like computer mice... and tendons.
Not doing it is hard on humans (and mice), and makes no difference to bots. Doing it is beneficial to humans, and makes no difference to bots. Or that's how I see it, anyway.
Neverwinter Census 2017
All posts pending disapproval by Cecilia
I was about a quarter of the way through clicking like mad on the 'open' button before I realised that just holding it down caused it to pop through them just as fast lol.
Xael De Armadeon: DC
Xane De Armadeon: CW
Zen De Armadeon: OP
Zohar De Armadeon: TR
Chrion De Armadeon: SW
Gosti Big Belly: GWF
Barney McRustbucket: GF
Lt. Thackeray: HR
Lucius De Armadeon: BD
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