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'Message From The Neverwinter Management Team' - Questions.

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    hadestemplar#9918 hadestemplar Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 1,183 Arc User
    edited May 2017

    I have people in my guild who haven't had a reply in over a week. And they don't even use Naga-like mouses. And you expect people to be civil about it? Give me a break.

    Have even though how many players have wrote tickets. The ones who where/are innocent and also who where guilty, proved by logs and etc, and they also wrote tickets.

    I can bet, support service is now overflood with tickets, and 7 days, my friend, it's nothing.
    Also remember, that all players want quick respond, but support service staff are humans too. They don't work like checking/responding 25 tickets per minute speed. Poorly checked data and bad conclusion is worser than waiting couple days.


    ====================

    And as for my previously mentioned player (TR), which I suspected of using bot..

    Well I remembered old trick, which I used when played cabal online.. I locked keyboard key, so it would keep repeating task/power which where bind to that key.
    For me where enough to put vinyl erasers on desired keyboards key, and on top put book, or any other material, which would hold key pushed down.

    So I didn't use bot, yet after chatting with that games staff, we come with conclusion that this trick can be consider as cheating.... :)

    So staff eventually introduced some extras/features, to counter such trick..



    Moderator attempt to fix broken code.
    Post edited by kreatyve on
    ========================================================================
    “The masses have never thirsted after truth. Whoever can supply them with illusions is easily their master; whoever attempts to destroy their illusions is always their victim.
    Gustave Le Bon.

    ==================================================
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    asterotgasterotg Member Posts: 1,742 Arc User
    Well, I know, that they did not apologice to all unbanned players, they dont even sent a massege to all unbanned players (that the ban is lifted), let alone reimburse them for the lost VIP time.
    Chars: CW, DC, GF, GWF, HR and TR.
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    asterotgasterotg Member Posts: 1,742 Arc User
    Update. Credit, were credit is due. They did sent an apology letter an reimbursed for lost VIP time this weekend.
    Chars: CW, DC, GF, GWF, HR and TR.
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    spideymtspideymt Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 710 Arc User
    edited May 2017
    asterotg said:

    Update. Credit, were credit is due. They did sent an apology letter an reimbursed for lost VIP time this weekend.

    I wanna know how this mistake was made, how they fixed it and what can we as com do, so we dont get banned in the future again for this mistake! Was it a mistake from safe guard? Was it bc players did to much invokes? As long we dont get any clear statement, how can we be sure that this mistake wouldnt happen again??
    Is there any official statement about this mistake? Link it plz.
    I dont wanna know all the lill secret from safe guard or how you gonna find botter, but its obvious this last bann wave was a total mess. So can we expect that respect from the devs that we get an answer? Or do we get the answer on friday? Seems the new day for such things...like bannwaves etc.

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    thegreatmikeythegreatmikey Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 122 Arc User

    < And you expect people to be civil about it? Give me a break.

    I always expect people to be civil. Unfortunately war can also be considered civil.

    No plan survives contact with the enemy and botters are certainly the enemy. If I had gotten banned I would be very angry. I would have also tried to follow appeal procedures. If the appeal procedures failed I would have quietly freaked. I would also understand that there will always be errors in large scale effects and plans. Logic vs. emotion is what this situation appears to be. So I can empathise with those who got banned without cause. They have had their losses somewhat restored and hopefully more will get this treatment. I can empathise with those who were banned without cause that did not and will not get re-instated. THEY are allowed to be upset and tell everyone what happened to them. For the rest of us, well, what can I say? We are all gonna react to this differently. All I ask is that you try to respond like you might a week later, which is hopefully more calm and rational than I would be on "day zero."

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    jumpingmorksjumpingmorks Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 876 Arc User

    < And you expect people to be civil about it? Give me a break.

    I always expect people to be civil. Unfortunately war can also be considered civil.

    .......THEY are allowed to be upset and tell everyone what happened to them.......

    Not on these forums they won't, we're forbidden to talk about two topics, specific bans, which would include themselves if they had gotten banned and I shall re-quote kreatyve's post on page 3 below for the second because I'm unsure if I'm even allowed to tell you it's a rule.
    kreatyve said:

    General note: Discussing moderation is still not allowed. If you have an issue or question about moderation of this or any other thread, please contact a moderator or @nitocris83. Thanks.

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    urabaskurabask Member Posts: 2,923 Arc User
    spideymt said:

    asterotg said:

    Update. Credit, were credit is due. They did sent an apology letter an reimbursed for lost VIP time this weekend.

    I wanna know how this mistake was made, how they fixed it and what can we as com do, so we dont get banned in the future again for this mistake! Was it a mistake from safe guard? Was it bc players did to much invokes? As long we dont get any clear statement, how can we be sure that this mistake wouldnt happen again??
    Is there any official statement about this mistake? Link it plz.
    I dont wanna know all the lill secret from safe guard or how you gonna find botter, but its obvious this last bann wave was a total mess. So can we expect that respect from the devs that we get an answer? Or do we get the answer on friday? Seems the new day for such things...like bannwaves etc.
    During their last livestream with the CMs they basically said they can't answer any of those questions : \
    I8r4ux9.jpg
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    spideymtspideymt Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 710 Arc User
    urabask said:


    During their last livestream with the CMs they basically said they can't answer any of those questions : \

    And who can answer theese questions? Is there no one else? I cant believe it.

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    urabaskurabask Member Posts: 2,923 Arc User
    spideymt said:

    urabask said:


    During their last livestream with the CMs they basically said they can't answer any of those questions : \

    And who can answer theese questions? Is there no one else? I cant believe it.
    They could if they wanted to but they won't.
    I8r4ux9.jpg
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    jumpingmorksjumpingmorks Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 876 Arc User
    urabask said:

    spideymt said:

    urabask said:


    During their last livestream with the CMs they basically said they can't answer any of those questions : \

    And who can answer theese questions? Is there no one else? I cant believe it.
    They could if they wanted to but they won't.
    I modified your statement to something which I think is more accurate :)
    They could if they wanted to but they can't.

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    jumpingmorksjumpingmorks Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 876 Arc User

    jaegernl said:

    Is it? Is it truly? Taken into consideration this current failed banwave and the one last winter, you really think allowing legit players to start resembling bot-like activity is in the best interest of the players? I fail to see how that works. Do enlighten us, please?

    Compared to the original deafening silence and the "we've shot all dissenters, therefor there is no dissent", it certainly is quite an improvement that the thread is still open and they're issuing apologies + VIP.
    Mwa, the VIP + apologies is indeed new. Credit where it's due. Although it was due last time and nobody got it. As for this thread, they'll mod it, but nothing will come off it. They'll let us rant until the thread dies out. They did so with the closure of the gateway, Coalgate, the last banwave and any other issue us players protest against. And next time they'll do it again.

    While I believe Ambi's promise to forward the "never again on a Friday" suggestion, there's no guarantee they will actually care or listen. Either way, the damage is done. I've got several guild members still banned for nothing and while they are trying to get their accounts back, their desire to play is just about gone. And frankly, I don't blame them. After all, it could be your account that's getting banned next time and being forced to wait over 2 weeks to see some repairs being done is not exactly encouraging people to see justice done. Better to quit now and find a publisher that actually cares about the people that keep the lights on. Not that I"m about to quit just yet. But I can understand the feeling.
    From a completely personal perspective, I am happy that for whatever reason, at whatever point in this process, they changed their policy to one of apologise and issuing VIP compensation.

    But I can completely understand your feelings and those who feel even worse. However, how Cryptic deal with customers that I think have good reason to be much unhappier (and I've been pretty obviously unhappy in this thread alone) than I have been is up to them as a company to consider how valuable their customers are. Damage has been done, they can either choose to ignore it and hope it won't fester like other mistakes have done so in the past or they can make the effort to address it and help those that feel this way feel more like a customer again.

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    oldbaldyoneoldbaldyone Member Posts: 1,840 Arc User
    I still think the easiest solution here is, hire some minimum wage folks to work in game support, checking for bots. Use the code you have to identify possible targets, and have them manually checked out (unless its obvious, IE logged in 24 hours a day, 7 days a week, in the same zone, doing the same thing).

    The amount of lost revenue from giving out VIP, and the lost revenue due to trust issues, would probably easily cover the cost. Hell, you could probably even get some trusted players to do so (not sure that's done anymore - I know there were legal issues back in the EQ days).
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    asterotgasterotg Member Posts: 1,742 Arc User

    < And you expect people to be civil about it? Give me a break.

    I always expect people to be civil. Unfortunately war can also be considered civil.

    .......THEY are allowed to be upset and tell everyone what happened to them.......

    Not on these forums they won't, we're forbidden to talk about two topics, specific bans, which would include themselves if they had gotten banned and I shall re-quote kreatyve's post on page 3 below for the second because I'm unsure if I'm even allowed to tell you it's a rule.
    kreatyve said:

    General note: Discussing moderation is still not allowed. If you have an issue or question about moderation of this or any other thread, please contact a moderator or @nitocris83. Thanks.

    Exactly this. You cant say, I got banned and you cant say, they deleted my posts regarding this, bc the first one would violate the first mentioned rule and the 2nd one the 2nd mentioned rule.

    Discussing this is difficult, but I think, that moderating this is difficult for the Mods, too. They feel the pain of their fellow players and would like to give them a possiblity, to vent their anger and get heared, but on the other side they have to follow the rules, themself and enforce them.
    Chars: CW, DC, GF, GWF, HR and TR.
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    jumpingmorksjumpingmorks Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 876 Arc User

    I still think the easiest solution here is, hire some minimum wage folks to work in game support, checking for bots. Use the code you have to identify possible targets, and have them manually checked out (unless its obvious, IE logged in 24 hours a day, 7 days a week, in the same zone, doing the same thing).

    The amount of lost revenue from giving out VIP, and the lost revenue due to trust issues, would probably easily cover the cost. Hell, you could probably even get some trusted players to do so (not sure that's done anymore - I know there were legal issues back in the EQ days).

    I agree completely. Very rarely will a person be able to know for sure by looking at the actions of another player if they are using a script or not, but it would be end of the line for gold sellers in PE.

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    eoleeeolee Member Posts: 264 Arc User
    edited June 2017
    Moderator edited out mod edited quote.

    As for the person asking for a function allowing players to report every person they see in game as bot i'll answer this:

    Yes please implement this feature so we will get to see reports of people simply annoyed by others, reports of people afking because their kid got hurt, reports of people one shotting each other in pvp "omg they killed kenny'', reports of people standing still in a zone because they're simply talking to someone, people farming siege while they're watching tv, people farming vouchers that are lazy to run the whole map to get 1 voucher per circling the map so just pick a spot and are smart enough to realise that vouchers drops have CD, all that.

    And give them all a scarlet letter cloak transmute. And of course a superman cloak transmute for those successfully catching one.
    Im being sarcastic. Had to make some precision since apparently im not allowed to quote previous posts like others.


    Post edited by eolee on
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    callumf#9018 callumf Member Posts: 1,710 Arc User
    In other games its pretty simple. The player has to be present at all times playing their character in the game. So yes hire some staff and get them in game. Find your likely bot. Move next to them and address them by name [talk to them in the game.] by whisper, then Zone Chat etc etc and if there is no response then maybe give a short immediate ban. This means an active player with an active toon wont get banned by mistake?
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    jumpingmorksjumpingmorks Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 876 Arc User

    In other games its pretty simple. The player has to be present at all times playing their character in the game. So yes hire some staff and get them in game. Find your likely bot. Move next to them and address them by name [talk to them in the game.] by whisper, then Zone Chat etc etc and if there is no response then maybe give a short immediate ban. This means an active player with an active toon wont get banned by mistake?

    I'd get banned prety often then, like right now the game is loaded but I thought I would check out the forums.
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    callumf#9018 callumf Member Posts: 1,710 Arc User

    In other games its pretty simple. The player has to be present at all times playing their character in the game. So yes hire some staff and get them in game. Find your likely bot. Move next to them and address them by name [talk to them in the game.] by whisper, then Zone Chat etc etc and if there is no response then maybe give a short immediate ban. This means an active player with an active toon wont get banned by mistake?

    I'd get banned prety often then, like right now the game is loaded but I thought I would check out the forums.
    Yes but your character in game wouldn't be doing anything would it? Its to catch out unattended farming. If you are static and in a safe place and just not doing anything you wouldn't get a ban :)
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    oldbaldyoneoldbaldyone Member Posts: 1,840 Arc User

    I'd get banned prety often then, like right now the game is loaded but I thought I would check out the forums.

    That is different. You aren't actually playing.
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    hadestemplar#9918 hadestemplar Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 1,183 Arc User
    edited June 2017

    In other games its pretty simple. The player has to be present at all times playing their character in the game. So yes hire some staff and get them in game. Find your likely bot. Move next to them and address them by name [talk to them in the game.] by whisper, then Zone Chat etc etc and if there is no response then maybe give a short immediate ban. This means an active player with an active toon wont get banned by mistake?

    Just write the name of game company, which actually did as u claim.
    ========================================================================
    “The masses have never thirsted after truth. Whoever can supply them with illusions is easily their master; whoever attempts to destroy their illusions is always their victim.
    Gustave Le Bon.

    ==================================================
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    urabaskurabask Member Posts: 2,923 Arc User

    In other games its pretty simple. The player has to be present at all times playing their character in the game. So yes hire some staff and get them in game. Find your likely bot. Move next to them and address them by name [talk to them in the game.] by whisper, then Zone Chat etc etc and if there is no response then maybe give a short immediate ban. This means an active player with an active toon wont get banned by mistake?

    Just write the name of game company, which actually did as u claim.
    Does it matter? Neverwinter has so many instances that it would be impractical to monitor them while in game.
    I8r4ux9.jpg
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    usernamefatigueusernamefatigue Member Posts: 60 Arc User
    It would be awesome to get up to make coffee and/or pee and/or put your kid back to bed and come back to a ban. Almost as good as a random ban for not botting.
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    callumf#9018 callumf Member Posts: 1,710 Arc User
    It was a tactic used in Ultima Online and as far as I am aware is knowledge in the public domain [using GMs to find scripters/cheaters] and it ONLY applies to a character/toon DOING something NOT if you are just standing around at the bank
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    nitocris83nitocris83 Member, Cryptic Developer, Administrator Posts: 4,498 Cryptic Developer
    Hey everyone! Just wanted to give you all a heads up that this thread will be closed on Monday, June 5. The thread will be left here as an archive and reference for both players and the Dev team. Closing this thread does not signify end of discussion in a broader sense, simply that this thread has become somewhat circular in nature and at risk to become disruptive.

    Thanks to everyone who provided constructive feedback and questions on this topic.
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    kzone#2148 kzone Member Posts: 19 Arc User

    I'd get banned prety often then, like right now the game is loaded but I thought I would check out the forums.

    That is different. You aren't actually playing.
    But how would you really know. When I'm playing, i'm often not looking at chat or outright ignoring it. Do you propose they pop you into "jail" for a Turing test to see if you are really there?
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    oldbaldyoneoldbaldyone Member Posts: 1,840 Arc User

    I'd get banned prety often then, like right now the game is loaded but I thought I would check out the forums.

    That is different. You aren't actually playing.
    But how would you really know. When I'm playing, i'm often not looking at chat or outright ignoring it. Do you propose they pop you into "jail" for a Turing test to see if you are really there?
    Typically, in game staff have some sort of pause all actions" spell that will make it plainly obvious that someone wants your attention. Or yea, make a GM Island.....

    Don't overthink it. When a human is involved in trying to determine (virtually in person so to speak) if another thing is human or bot, its pretty easy. Its when "scripts" try to do so that things go sideways.
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    hadestemplar#9918 hadestemplar Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 1,183 Arc User
    urabask said:


    Just write the name of game company, which actually did as u claim.

    Does it matter? Neverwinter has so many instances that it would be impractical to monitor them while in game.

    Yeap. It's matter for me.. as for you. well. Seems nop,.

    It would be awesome to get up to make coffee and/or pee and/or put your kid back to bed and come back to a ban. Almost as good as a random ban for not botting.

    After having such day, staff manager will call you to his office, and inform that your actions where against companies policy and rules, and your services are no longer required. :)

    It was a tactic used in Ultima Online and as far as I am aware is knowledge in the public domain [using GMs to find scripters/cheaters] and it ONLY applies to a character/toon DOING something NOT if you are just standing around at the bank

    Uhh.. Ultima online.. The game which build road for all current RPG games. Can't say much toward ultima, I am not familiar with that games management..

    However similar way where used in lineage 2, wow, twelve sky 2, cabal online, MU online, RF online, also have seen in Runes of magic. Also know that it where used in many other mmorp games..

    And tactic itself is simple. You have one or couple staff(GM) running inside game, respond to GM request tickets within game, and have fun. Also they check most common bots spots.
    And once they notice suspected player or obvious bot/exploit activity, they with special commands relocated them to prison or island or whatever place, plus players got marked as suspected ones.
    So GM either send request toward support services to check marked players logs or do it himself.
    And only after that player either is proved innocent and relocated back to nearest village or proved guilty and got executed(banned).

    ========================================================================
    “The masses have never thirsted after truth. Whoever can supply them with illusions is easily their master; whoever attempts to destroy their illusions is always their victim.
    Gustave Le Bon.

    ==================================================
This discussion has been closed.