mauraders is fine the way it is. its basically two gap closers in one. rush towards them and if all else fails flip a 180 and escape towards them. learn to play. the fact that escape actually does damage now is awesome. every time i see the damage floaters i say thank you in my head to the developer who did that.
if anything is done or changed with mauraders, i think when you use escape it should leave a snare field for 3-5 seconds in that spot you escaped from. This would greatly help out archers. make it like the rogues courage breaker while you are at it.
Escape is no where being fine as it is.
Firstly, it's too slow. Meaning you're likely to take damage anyway.
Lastly, if you're archery in pvp. You stand zero chance against anyone ranged with their own CC, like CWs. You will get locked down and once that happens, you're dead. Absolutely no tools to help you get out of that mess. GWFs will pop unstoppable to ignore all of that, SWs can bait out attacks and use their own shift, and will be faster in mod 10, and TRs, you know what they do.
CW has a perma shield to absorb damage FFS on top of it's amazing dodge and stamina regen starting immediately after dodging. Don't know what the criers are thinking on how this would make the HR OP. Archer will probably die in pvp anyway WITH the CC break/immunity.
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lirithielMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 2,482Arc User
@flowcyto: If you were attacking just one dummy, Rapid Strike would do considerably more damage than the others, but with CtG and SS you're attacking at least two targets so the numbers will be skewed.
Our pain is self chosen.
The most important thing in life is to be yourself. Unless you can be Batman. Always be Batman.
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treesclimberMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,161Arc User
I wanted to better compare Combat's At-Wills w/ simple single-target dps tests. In light of Combat's dps being even more heavily based on its at-wills (Flurry, Pericing Blade, Blade Storm, etc) than possibly Thorned Roots is for Trappers, it seems pertinent to highlight how each melee at-will performs. They're properties are very important for Combat now, so I want to make sure the devs have its best interests in mind.
All tests were done on one lvl 60 dummy (no splash dmg or extra targets), ~3-4 min tests, rank 4 in each attack, didn't change gear/stats between tests, and feated for HT/CA so I didn't favor any of the tested At-wills.
Rapid Strike spam:
Clear the Ground spam @ shortest distance:
Clear the Ground Spam @ max distance:
Aimed Strike spam:
Split Strike spam:
1x Aimed Strike, ~4x Rapid Strike cycle rotation:
The raw numbers aren't as important as the relative comparisons here, so..
DPS of each at-will per target *relative to Rapid Strike spam*
It seems a bit odd that Rapid Strike is only about 6-10% higher dps than max CtG or Split Strike in the same setup. I wouldn't expect AoE At-wills to be that close to the main single-target one in per-target dps, and I think Rapid Strike could still use a slight bump. Atm, if a Stormwarden Combat HR wanted to be lazy, they could just use a CTG + Aimed Strike (for its DoT on single targets) combination everywhere, not bother w/ any other at-wills, and not lose out on much.
Although Split Strike's per-target dps is pretty good (and apparently better than CtG's per-target dps), its AoE reach remains really poor. This greatly limits how well Pathfinders will perform in AoE situations as Combat, and esp given that Bear Trap is a bit underwhelming atm (and Bear Trap is competing w/ other encounters for that slot). I'm fine w/ Stormwarden having the better large-scale AoE option, but for the sake of both paths I'd suggest improving Split Strike's AoE reach in some considerable way.
Aimed Strike spam doesn't do well by itself (though it arguably shouldn't), but it does net a pretty nice boost when put on top of Rapid Strike for an optimal single-target dps rotation. This strikes me as a bit more balanced as slotting both means having no AoE at-will, which greatly changes Combat's performance rel to the other trees (which, again, is perhaps why the AoE at-wills' per-target dps shouldn't be too close to Rapid Strike's). Aimed Strike's DoT could stand to be buffed a touch more as well, imo.
(edit to fix the aimed strike + rapid strike calcs)
Wow, very good review i had tried full combat before but if i go combat next module it will be combat archer for longshot, i've achieved the best dps from all the 3 trees and all combinations i tried with it.
Will playing arounf with builds a little more today i can tell 100% sure that combat indeed has a very good damage now but it still lacks survival in pve agains 1 shots for example where trapper can easly dodge or use oak skin so my sugestion regarding this:
Wilds medicine feat will also increase duration of oak skin by 5 seconds.
I havent tryed archer out of dummies yet but i think ill be disapointed =S
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feanor70118Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,170Arc User
I've been talking to Amenar about some of the H/R changes, and I mentioned to him that I found the tooltip on the Combat capstone unclear. We're in text lock right now, so we can't fix it just yet, but I thought I'd tell people about our discussion, since people are saying the combat capstone seems weak.
What the tooltip text says now: "Melee At-Will attacks strike two additional times for 65% more damage"
Could be read as: I hit for 100, and then get two more strikes that do a total of 65. My total is 165.
How it really works: I hit for 100, and then I get two more hits, *each* of which does 165 (100 + 65). My total is 430.
I know people are saying that the at-wills are so low it doesn't matter. I haven't personally tested Combat, but I will say two things: * Four times the damage is a LOT. * Amenar tells me the base at-will dps is pretty much on par with other classes. Of course, buffs and bonuses can change that a lot. And fast attack speeds can make good dps look small. But I'm inclined to believe Amenar about the base dps. Whether the total buffs available to a combat H/R are enough to make the at-wills viable I think we don't know yet. But between Blade Hurricane and Piercing Blade, I think combat's got much better tools than it had.
Hi. I appreciate your taking the time to post here.
However, you could have come in with better information by simply watching a highly-geared, experienced GWF or TR (or any class, really) do damage with at-wills for a minute and then compare it with an HR doing the same.
HR at-will damage is so low that the 2x bonus from the Combat capstone is insignificant. If it were not, there would be more than a few HRs playing Combat. There are not. There are only a few. We aren't making this up. Our at-wills (Aimed Shot excepted) are simply useless for dealing damage.
A while ago I posted a thread in the HR class forums comparing the pathfinder/trapper GWF feat tree with the GWF swordmaster/destroyer feat tree line by line. The differences were large and starkly obvious. They are even more so with the Combat tree.
Your post brings up one of the bigger issues in this game: tooltips provide unclear and incomplete information. Utility enchantments have ICDs and daily limits, but we don't know what they are. Abilities have a 'chance' to proc, but we don't know what that chance is. Players deserve complete information and discussions such as this one will always be hampered by the lack of it. This is an issue for many items, abilities, feats and boons for all classes and should be addressed.
@flowcyto: If you were attacking just one dummy, Rapid Strike would do considerably more damage than the others, but with CtG and SS you're attacking at least two targets so the numbers will be skewed
Just to clarify: I was only hitting one target (the lone test dummy in IWD that's not surrounded by anything else than can be damaged), so yea these are all single-target dps tests, effectively. So yes, my tests show that even just vs. one target, CtG and Split Strike ideally are very close to Rapid Strike's dps for Combat.
Treesclimber- thanks. I will look into other trees and some more general (aoe and single target) tests later (I'm curious about Archery's tighter AoE dps and how the 'best' single-target dps setups compare between the 3 paths now- though I suspect Archery is the king of that aspect). Not great timing atm irl, but I hope others can get to the shard and muck about w/ rotations when they can.
I guess for the console peeps here: are there any powers (or combos of powers) ur esp curious about? Maybe those of us that can access the shard can look into it for you? I can't do any high-end stuff, pvp, or much group content, but maybe others could.
So, looking at what I could realistically do for preventing the perma-daze build without affecting PvE, one possible solution would be something to the effects of:
In PvP, you may only be affected by Crushing Roots once every 3 seconds.
Both the amount of times, and the duration, could change to whatever makes sense. 3 times in 10 seconds, once every 5 seconds, etc. We still need a better "real" solution to CC in PvP - which won't happen in the immediate future - but at that point, maybe this limiter could come off.
Note that this is not a patch note yet, just asking for your feelings about something like this as a means to prevent more brokeness in PvP.
My feelings are that it's a terrible idea. Right now, dazes against BiS players last only a fraction of a second. Roots don't root them AT ALL. Permadaze DOES NOT EXIST against players wearing pvp gear. It does not exist. It does not exist. It does not exist. There is no reason to fix a problem that does not exist.
The issue with HR control abilities is that they do no significant control in addition to doing no significant damage. We have to outplay a GF or GWF or TR or CW ten to one just to hold a node until help arrives because we can't kill them. The HR is 'broken' in pvp only in the conventional sense that it does not work. Our control abilities do not control. Our damage abilities do not damage. We've already had completely senseless nerfs to AoE target caps that will severely hurt our utility in dungeons for no reason at all. Please stop applying 'fixes' where things are not broken. We are already the weakest striker class in the game and no nerfs whatsoever are justified without significant compensating buffs.
ghoulz66Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 3,748Arc User
edited August 2016
I say leave Rapid Strike as it is. If you want to hit harder as Combat, slot Aimed Strike, and buff it as well. Combat's single target feels adequate enough. Archery should remain the king of single target.
Though CtG may need tuned in some manner, or Scything Blades with a cap.
@feanor70118 while I agree with you that (100% uptime) perma daze does not exist against BiS or those with trans elven, really good HRs can get CLOSE to perma daze/perma (80-90%) rooting certain classes. (If two HRs target 1 person it becomes ridiculous.)
I have to get lucky timing my SW's Shadow Slip at the exact moment a Trapper slightly slips up on their rotation to break away. Then, I can only get off an at-will or two, or if I am really lucky, an encounter, before I am rooted and dazed again. And now Thorned Roots will proc all damage ticks? Wow.
I have been on the opposite end (on multiple classes) of all the well-known HR PvPers--and its pretty dang close to perma daze+root even with trans elven. Through much experience in 1v1s, Trappers can repeat the near perma daze+root rotations for MINUTES ON END.
Also, perma daze+root does exist in lower level PvP and/or against those without trans elven. It is a problem, and it needs to be addressed.
I say leave Rapid Strike as it is. If you want to hit harder as Combat, slot Aimed Strike, and buff it as well. Combat's single target feels adequate enough. Archery should remain the king of single target.
Though CtG may need tuned in some manner, or Scything Blades with a cap.
I want to see the 3 paths parsed out more on the shard before I jump to conclusions, though my last test showed that Trapper and Combat can be quite close in AoE dps, and that's not necc a bad thing considering that burst AoE dps (w/ PG) was imo already one of Combat's few strong points before the review, and Trapper does have more 'CC' options over Combat.
If Split Strike's AoE were made a sphere and, say, doubled in reach, then its dps may have to come down a bit too. But I'd take that trade if it means Split Strike is made a serviceable AoE by itself.
I'm unsure of Scything Blade, but yeah its generally smart design to put a cap on things like that.
Your post brings up one of the bigger issues in this game: tooltips provide unclear and incomplete information. Utility enchantments have ICDs and daily limits, but we don't know what they are. Abilities have a 'chance' to proc, but we don't know what that chance is. Players deserve complete information and discussions such as this one will always be hampered by the lack of it. This is an issue for many items, abilities, feats and boons for all classes and should be addressed.
That is a good point, though I find tooltips to be incomplete, buggy, or lacking clarity in many online games. It'd be a nice thing to cleanup, but imo as lower priority than general power balancing and bug-fixing. Esp as we're in a time-crunch atm.
treesclimberMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,161Arc User
edited August 2016
@zonoske#5272 I tried it, got around 21% damage from longshot, so I think combining AotF with crushing roots for pvp is a very good idea since you don't need to be locked into AotS anymore.But this only applies for the moment, crushing roots will get a rework sooner or later.
HR does use a special ninja sprint run animation on occasion. Not sure how it's triggered though.
It's fox's shift, the melee of Fox's Cunning, it supposedly gives you a bonus movement speed and snare your target, the animation is there but not the bonuses.
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treesclimberMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,161Arc User
Capstone for combat need to last longer the overall dps loose to much even if spikes can be ok.
Archers suffers from lack of both cc and anti cc addressing this is a must !!!
5 target cap on cordon/plat growths need to be removed or changed to 10
Ambush might be okeyish but trapp part is utterly useless-add a stun or slow + at least 2-3 time radius
Boar charge takes to long need to avoid locking user at end of animation, more damage and it can't prone the stun need to last longer
I don't think it's a good move to cap Plant Growth at all, if it's really, really needed, cap it at 10, please consider reverting those changes, it's not like the damage from it was game-breaking earlier...
Also, please consider putting actual numbers in the tooltips, "a chance to" isn't really appropriate when something has a 100% chance to proc, but only works once/60 sec. and so on.
I really hope this isn't the end for the Trapper, it would be disheartening to see such a massive re-work like this make it worse dps-wise than it was before...
Still kinda curious as to why there are so many posts about GWF/PvP in this topic, I thought there was a separate topic for that class...
Whatever comes of this, it was nice to see a developer have this much communication with players, lots of credit to @amenar for this
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ghoulz66Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 3,748Arc User
Hey @amenar it's me again, i found that Hawk Eye is not procing Hawk shot sometimes, have done several test and seems like Critical shots, using encounters rapidly or the distance between you and target are maybe factors causing it, i make a video to help explain what i found:
First i use Commanding Shot, Then activate Hawk Eye, then use Longstrider's Shot and Finally Hawk Shot with about 3 seconds left of Hawk Eye's buff. If you pause the video when i shot Longstrider's, you can see it deals 46'800 + 6997 (from longshot[3650] + lostmouth [3347]) + 7020 from hawk shot. Now with hawk shot: It deals 142'358 + 3347 (Lostmouth) + 3386 (longshot) and there should be a 21'353 hit from hawk's eyebut there isn't. ACT shows me that hawk eye deal 2 hits, 1 hit of 7k and another is a damage trigger.
Just to see if maybe hawkeye damage have merged with hawk shot, i test again the same rotation but without hawkeye's buff, and still i deal 147k damage so no.
Comments
<CO docs> .: Petco :. // Base DPS Sheet (needs revision) // PSA on Power Activation Delay
- Themed Tanks // Misc Build Dump // Ayonachan's Gift Horse (stat data)
- Be safe and have fun, champs - for science!
Firstly, it's too slow. Meaning you're likely to take damage anyway.
Lastly, if you're archery in pvp. You stand zero chance against anyone ranged with their own CC, like CWs. You will get locked down and once that happens, you're dead. Absolutely no tools to help you get out of that mess. GWFs will pop unstoppable to ignore all of that, SWs can bait out attacks and use their own shift, and will be faster in mod 10, and TRs, you know what they do.
CW has a perma shield to absorb damage FFS on top of it's amazing dodge and stamina regen starting immediately after dodging. Don't know what the criers are thinking on how this would make the HR OP. Archer will probably die in pvp anyway WITH the CC break/immunity.
The most important thing in life is to be yourself. Unless you can be Batman. Always be Batman.
Will playing arounf with builds a little more today i can tell 100% sure that combat indeed has a very good damage now but it still lacks survival in pve agains 1 shots for example where trapper can easly dodge or use oak skin so my sugestion regarding this:
Wilds medicine feat will also increase duration of oak skin by 5 seconds.
I havent tryed archer out of dummies yet but i think ill be disapointed =S
However, you could have come in with better information by simply watching a highly-geared, experienced GWF or TR (or any class, really) do damage with at-wills for a minute and then compare it with an HR doing the same.
HR at-will damage is so low that the 2x bonus from the Combat capstone is insignificant. If it were not, there would be more than a few HRs playing Combat. There are not. There are only a few. We aren't making this up. Our at-wills (Aimed Shot excepted) are simply useless for dealing damage.
A while ago I posted a thread in the HR class forums comparing the pathfinder/trapper GWF feat tree with the GWF swordmaster/destroyer feat tree line by line. The differences were large and starkly obvious. They are even more so with the Combat tree.
Your post brings up one of the bigger issues in this game: tooltips provide unclear and incomplete information. Utility enchantments have ICDs and daily limits, but we don't know what they are. Abilities have a 'chance' to proc, but we don't know what that chance is. Players deserve complete information and discussions such as this one will always be hampered by the lack of it. This is an issue for many items, abilities, feats and boons for all classes and should be addressed.
I can see Melee HRs easily getting 100% deflect chance in PvE with (sudden ring on companion) and very close to that in PvP.
Not trying to hate, just want to be realistic here.
Treesclimber- thanks. I will look into other trees and some more general (aoe and single target) tests later (I'm curious about Archery's tighter AoE dps and how the 'best' single-target dps setups compare between the 3 paths now- though I suspect Archery is the king of that aspect). Not great timing atm irl, but I hope others can get to the shard and muck about w/ rotations when they can.
I guess for the console peeps here: are there any powers (or combos of powers) ur esp curious about? Maybe those of us that can access the shard can look into it for you? I can't do any high-end stuff, pvp, or much group content, but maybe others could.
<CO docs> .: Petco :. // Base DPS Sheet (needs revision) // PSA on Power Activation Delay
- Themed Tanks // Misc Build Dump // Ayonachan's Gift Horse (stat data)
- Be safe and have fun, champs - for science!
The issue with HR control abilities is that they do no significant control in addition to doing no significant damage. We have to outplay a GF or GWF or TR or CW ten to one just to hold a node until help arrives because we can't kill them. The HR is 'broken' in pvp only in the conventional sense that it does not work. Our control abilities do not control. Our damage abilities do not damage. We've already had completely senseless nerfs to AoE target caps that will severely hurt our utility in dungeons for no reason at all. Please stop applying 'fixes' where things are not broken. We are already the weakest striker class in the game and no nerfs whatsoever are justified without significant compensating buffs.
http://www.arcgames.com/en/forums/neverwinter/#/discussion/563206/dps-pvp-trapper-with-longshot-build-module-6/p1
And would you want any changes to this tested?
<CO docs> .: Petco :. // Base DPS Sheet (needs revision) // PSA on Power Activation Delay
- Themed Tanks // Misc Build Dump // Ayonachan's Gift Horse (stat data)
- Be safe and have fun, champs - for science!
Though CtG may need tuned in some manner, or Scything Blades with a cap.
I have to get lucky timing my SW's Shadow Slip at the exact moment a Trapper slightly slips up on their rotation to break away. Then, I can only get off an at-will or two, or if I am really lucky, an encounter, before I am rooted and dazed again. And now Thorned Roots will proc all damage ticks? Wow.
I have been on the opposite end (on multiple classes) of all the well-known HR PvPers--and its pretty dang close to perma daze+root even with trans elven. Through much experience in 1v1s, Trappers can repeat the near perma daze+root rotations for MINUTES ON END.
Also, perma daze+root does exist in lower level PvP and/or against those without trans elven. It is a problem, and it needs to be addressed.
<CO docs> .: Petco :. // Base DPS Sheet (needs revision) // PSA on Power Activation Delay
- Themed Tanks // Misc Build Dump // Ayonachan's Gift Horse (stat data)
- Be safe and have fun, champs - for science!
If Split Strike's AoE were made a sphere and, say, doubled in reach, then its dps may have to come down a bit too. But I'd take that trade if it means Split Strike is made a serviceable AoE by itself.
I'm unsure of Scything Blade, but yeah its generally smart design to put a cap on things like that. That is a good point, though I find tooltips to be incomplete, buggy, or lacking clarity in many online games. It'd be a nice thing to cleanup, but imo as lower priority than general power balancing and bug-fixing. Esp as we're in a time-crunch atm.
<CO docs> .: Petco :. // Base DPS Sheet (needs revision) // PSA on Power Activation Delay
- Themed Tanks // Misc Build Dump // Ayonachan's Gift Horse (stat data)
- Be safe and have fun, champs - for science!
I don't think it's a good move to cap Plant Growth at all, if it's really, really needed, cap it at 10, please consider reverting those changes, it's not like the damage from it was game-breaking earlier...
Also, please consider putting actual numbers in the tooltips, "a chance to" isn't really appropriate when something has a 100% chance to proc, but only works once/60 sec. and so on.
I really hope this isn't the end for the Trapper, it would be disheartening to see such a massive re-work like this make it worse dps-wise than it was before...
Still kinda curious as to why there are so many posts about GWF/PvP in this topic, I thought there was a separate topic for that class...
Whatever comes of this, it was nice to see a developer have this much communication with players, lots of credit to @amenar for this
First i use Commanding Shot, Then activate Hawk Eye, then use Longstrider's Shot and Finally Hawk Shot with about 3 seconds left of Hawk Eye's buff.
If you pause the video when i shot Longstrider's, you can see it deals 46'800 + 6997 (from longshot[3650] + lostmouth [3347]) + 7020 from hawk shot.
Now with hawk shot: It deals 142'358 + 3347 (Lostmouth) + 3386 (longshot) and there should be a 21'353 hit from hawk's eyebut there isn't.
ACT shows me that hawk eye deal 2 hits, 1 hit of 7k and another is a damage trigger.
Just to see if maybe hawkeye damage have merged with hawk shot, i test again the same rotation but without hawkeye's buff, and still i deal 147k damage so no.