What's to stop botters from crafting AD in-game? They can do tasks already.
Anyone remember mod 5 Sharandar? 500 bots on the screen coming and going....but they can't craft leadership? Come on....
This is a real kick for people that work like me.
I spent more time in the gateway then I do in-game.
This was a super-lazy decision to make. Why not prompt captchas? Was that even considered?
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aulduronMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,351Arc User
I've never had a job that let me play computer games.
Personally, I get up in the morning to start Leadership tasks. By the time I get home (10-12 hours later) most of those jobs are still going. At 25, the best jobs are 24, 16 or 12 hours long. Logging on to invoke all those times per day is worse than getting on for leadership, IMO.
I expect the delay before a profession task completes to when it can actually be collected will be removed, right?
What about a collect all/ re-queue button? What about marking tasks as 'favorites'? How about actually making a worthwhile filter? If it can't be botted anymore, these should absolutely on the table.
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aulduronMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,351Arc User
I'm sure they'll still be able to bot it. They'll just have to change.
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plasticbatMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 12,296Arc User
and a double AD weekend doesn't mean much when you can only refine 24k a day anyway. if you really wanted to hurt botters, just take away the ability to refine AD from the gateway. .
I guess you don't know you don't need to refine AD yourself at all. If you don't refine any AD (through game or gateway), your raw AD will be refined automatically overnight (within the 24K per day limit) without your involvement.
*** The game can read your mind. If you want it, you won't get it. If you don't expect to get it, you will. ***
Previously, huge AD Sinks were created progressively to combat ADs that flooded the economy.
Devs then increased the duration of key AD generating leadership professions and made farming ADs via dungeon runs impossible. Most casual players are bathing in poverty now, and this...
If AD generating methods are continually hit, it is only fair that they tweak the AD sinks to commensurate with the reasonable amount of ADs an average player can generate legitimately.
However, I'm not optimistic on this, I'm probably going to bet my last dollar that the AD sinks will remain despite all the restrictions imposed on AD generation.
Couldn't it be easier just to cap AD amounts in AH on items? The for-profit botters sell AD via auction house by having AD buyers post some cheap item with a ridiculous buyout prices. An algorithmic cap on AH items would create an inconvenience for these botters and they would take their 'business' elsewhere and it wouldn't interfere with legit player's remote management options for their professions.
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plasticbatMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 12,296Arc User
Couldn't it be easier just to cap AD amounts in AH on items? The for-profit botters sell AD via auction house by having AD buyers post some cheap item with a ridiculous buyout prices. An algorithmic cap on AH items would create an inconvenience for these botters and they would take their 'business' elsewhere and it wouldn't interfere with legit player's remote management options for their professions.
The item does not have to cheap. You pay money to a botter. The botter gives you something "valuable" through mail.
You post the item for the specific amount. The botter buys the item. AD transferred. If another person paid the same price to buy that item before the botter, botter does not care.
*** The game can read your mind. If you want it, you won't get it. If you don't expect to get it, you will. ***
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plasticbatMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 12,296Arc User
I expect the delay before a profession task completes to when it can actually be collected will be removed, right?
I don't think there is a delay. I believe the "delay" you see is the clock difference between the client application (not your computer's system clock) and the server. If you reload the page, the clock will be sync again.
When I see the task stopped and no reward, I reload the page and I will see the clock becomes something like 50 secs (for example). When that count down to 0, I will see the reward right the way.
*** The game can read your mind. If you want it, you won't get it. If you don't expect to get it, you will. ***
I expect the delay before a profession task completes to when it can actually be collected will be removed, right?
I don't think there is a delay. I believe the "delay" you see is the clock difference between the client application (not your computer's system clock) and the server. If you reload the page, the clock will be sync again.
When I see the task stopped and no reward, I reload the page and I will see the clock becomes something like 50 secs (for example). When that count down to 0, I will see the reward right the way.
The delay is in-game and it looks like it is client side only functionality both on the gateway and in-game. You can reload the page on the gateway but not in-game.
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beckylunaticMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 14,231Arc User
The delay is fixed. The official line is it was a bug and not an anti-bot measure (that was just community mod opinion to try to hush people up from complaining about it so much).
[...]
Why not prompt captchas? Was that even considered?
I suppose captcha costs money...
Either that or right now the collective group of 4 developers working on this game putting their brains together to make horrible hasted decisions are like... "well <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font>... that ain't a half bad idea..."
It sounds to me the argument of the OP is that he needs to be allowed to bot Leadership in the Gateway to make game fun.
This shows botting Leadership in Gateway is rampant, and actually is a very good reason to block it. OP really is undermining his own position with his arguments. Botting can NEVER be allowed, and I cheer on Cryptic's efforts to stop it.
Leadership will still be doable from inside the game, and IMO it actually is faster to do it from game client than manually from Gateway. So only those legit players that does not have access to their game PC will suffer. That should be a small part of the total user community, so I really see no big issue in blocking Leadership from Gateway.
It is a bit sad that the game developers need to take such measures because of ill behaving 'players' though.
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icyphishMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,255Arc User
It sounds to me the argument of the OP is that he needs to be allowed to bot Leadership in the Gateway to make game fun.
This shows botting Leadership in Gateway is rampant, and actually is a very good reason to block it. OP really is undermining his own position with his arguments. Botting can NEVER be allowed, and I cheer on Cryptic's efforts to stop it.
Leadership will still be doable from inside the game, and IMO it actually is faster to do it from game client than manually from Gateway. So only those legit players that does not have access to their game PC will suffer. That should be a small part of the total user community, so I really see no big issue in blocking Leadership from Gateway.
It is a bit sad that the game developers need to take such measures because of ill behaving 'players' though.
I play since beta and I knew from the beginning, that the most effective way to make AD is a leadership army. I did not do it, bc it is no fun. I farmed dungeons, events etc, salvaged on my twinks, to get the AD. Dont get e wrong, to run the same dungeon hundreds of times, to earn some AD is not my idea of fun, but if you do it with some friends, it is ok.
Then Mod 6 comes along, new gear, new ranks, new artefacts etc. If you want decent gear you need ADs and refinement points. What are the other changes in Mod 6? They nerfed salvage, they nerfed leadership, they nerfed RP drops, they deleted some dungeons, they buffed the monsters, so that a new/ moderate geared player needs a group for SOLO play or gear up.
Wait, you cant gear up, bc they nerfed AD/ RP gain to the ground. What to do, if you dont want to spent xxxx $? Make some leadership alts and get them to lvl 25, get RP from lvl 24 task and AD from lvl 25/ 20 tasks.
This wont hurt the players with leadership lvl 25 armies, bc they have to reset once a day. This wont hurt botters, bc they will use a ingame script. This will hurt regular players who WORK and used gateway to reset their tasks.
How does just a 'small part' have no access to their game PC 24/7? Do you think, that just students, freelancers and unemployed ppl play MMOs?
Their whole game screams to be botted and exploited.
Because 95% is repetetive brainless grinding and clicking. While most of the FIX costs are uber high.
Their best selling ZEN item would be a game change token :-D
It sounds to me the argument of the OP is that he needs to be allowed to bot Leadership in the Gateway to make game fun.
This shows botting Leadership in Gateway is rampant, and actually is a very good reason to block it. OP really is undermining his own position with his arguments. Botting can NEVER be allowed, and I cheer on Cryptic's efforts to stop it.
Leadership will still be doable from inside the game, and IMO it actually is faster to do it from game client than manually from Gateway. So only those legit players that does not have access to their game PC will suffer. That should be a small part of the total user community, so I really see no big issue in blocking Leadership from Gateway.
It is a bit sad that the game developers need to take such measures because of ill behaving 'players' though.
You obviously did not read my original post then. I was not saying that I should bot to make money, as I do not bot. What I said is that bot provide a decent amount of inflation to the value of the few items we are capable of farming... so when I go farm the summer event for foods I can make half a GMOP for a decent amount of effort. If you plan to make comments please understand the situation. If you think leadership is do-able from in game... please try it... I dare you.. the inability to use leadership on multiple characters quickly through the gateway was glorious for what little good it did... regardless leadership is basically un-levelable... it requires so much exp to level that at a certain point you basically get nothing... and if you think they are doing this because it was hurting players... you are sadly mistaken.. they are doing this because at least in the instance of a few players... it was probably hurting their potential income.
Either way it was a rash decision made by a company desperate to solve a problem without actually doing anything. If they wanted to remove leadership bots that provide a lot of money into the total economy that is fine by me... it doesn't hurt my income... however... it will hurt my income as the pool of AD starts to dry up because nobody is capable of making any AD in game. They provide no outlet for us regular players to make money besides farming stuff and selling it to people that bot... If they gave us a way to actually make AD I wouldn't even be upset.
> @arokill said: > Couldn't it be easier just to cap AD amounts in AH on items? The for-profit botters sell AD via auction house by having AD buyers post some cheap item with a ridiculous buyout prices. An algorithmic cap on AH items would create an inconvenience for these botters and they would take their 'business' elsewhere and it wouldn't interfere with legit player's remote management options for their professions.
They have caps on how many AD's a person can refine every day, they have upper and lower caps on how much a person must offer to sell or buy zen, why can't they make the selling of items in the AH unprofitable or find a way to make any item purchased from the AH bind to account (please gawd not bound to character).
How about a salvage function for all gear picked up from quests instead of just level 60 epic gear? Then people will have an opportunity to play the game and get something actually rewarding instead of selling items for a few coppers.
There are so many things that could {emphasis on could} have been done before deciding to just flip the switch, which primarily effects the people who cannot afford to spend hour upon hour in the game.
I know a lot of people I've interacted with since getting into this game have lives and jobs, like me. I work 11 hour days 5 days a week and sometimes more, so the Gateway is pretty much the vast majority of my interaction with Neverwinter. I sign in to the game once or twice on the weekend for a few hours and try to get in on dungeon runs with my guild, or do a round of dailies. Obviously, that means my in game income is basically nill and I've only been able to gear up to where I am able to get in a dungeon because of real money converted into AD and the minor but needed supplement I've been able to get from Leadership. Without the income from Leadership, which is effectively what this change means for me, I'm stuck with what little is left of the real money I've put into this game. With three characters (one of which isn't even 70), that's not much AD at all and if history (within the game and IRL) teaches us anything, that pool of reserves I have is about to be dwarfed by prices controlled by the botters.
As powerful as the devs see the black market being now, its about to get much worse, given that botters are going to have even more power over the price of items in the AH. They will switch to the bots that log in and swap professions in game, which many legit players cannot do multiple times a day every day. The gap between legit players' income and botters' income will increase. They will gain complete, or at best near-complete, control of the high end items' pricing, simply by buying them out and setting prices outside the range of what legit players can afford - which in a short time may simply mean maintaining today's prices while legit players continue to lose avenues of income. Price setting will then push players to go buy AD or items from the botters directly. Its really not that difficult to understand: its how all black market economies become powerful determinants of legit economies IRL. Why would anyone expect it to be different within a game's economy?
It's really easy to detect gateway botters. They are the ones that never sleep.
Not necessarily. For those of us with periodic insomnia (mild case of PTSD from the Gulf War here), we could be logging in to the Gateway for legitimate reasons merely because we only sleep a few hours at a time.
I am standing by to see how they fill in the blanks on this change but it is very disconcerting. The bots will now just login to the game itself and do their Leaderships stuff. They farm RP in Arcane Reservoir and Black Lake, why does Cryptic (I hesitate to say devs because the decision may have come from above) think that this will be any different? If nothing else, they (and we) could use something like Logmein or TeamViewer to login to a computer, load the game and run the stuff from there.
Every change they've made regarding the economy has only caused legitimate players pain and heartache - keys bound to account, Coal wards bound, decreasing the non-Leadership AD generation via Dungeons and salvaging, Rank 11/12 enchants requiring less RP than R7-10, artifact gear at every turn, total abandonment of the foundry, bringing BACK set bonuses just so we have to grind that stuff out (after it was stated that they wanted to give us the freedom to choose our setup), the huge XP increase that penalizes not only new players but regulars that want to level up an alt, etc and that doesn't even cover the long running bugs that are affecting players, not bots.
Perhaps they need to just bite the bullet, get rid of AD and make everything a gold piece purchase. That way, they could at least set some secret daily limit of gp transfers and ban anyone that went above it. I mean, other than the almost-useless Level 70 potions we now have and swapping enchants, what do we all do with our gold? I probably have 2K gp across my toons and most of it has been there since at least Mod 4 if not before.
Or, possibly a better idea - make Black Ice the coin of the realm.
Comments
sorry, i dont want to type in a unreadable code everytime I collect rewards or queue up a task.
Sekhmet@kvetchus_
Guilds: Greycloaks, Blackcloaks, Whitecloaks, Goldcloaks, Browncloaks, Spiritcloaks, Bluecloaks, Silvercloaks, Black Dawn
Tredecim: The Cloak Alliance
Over N Out.
▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ ▇ █ Gankdalf The Icehole █ ▇ ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Anyone remember mod 5 Sharandar? 500 bots on the screen coming and going....but they can't craft leadership? Come on....
This is a real kick for people that work like me.
I spent more time in the gateway then I do in-game.
This was a super-lazy decision to make. Why not prompt captchas? Was that even considered?
Personally, I get up in the morning to start Leadership tasks. By the time I get home (10-12 hours later) most of those jobs are still going. At 25, the best jobs are 24, 16 or 12 hours long. Logging on to invoke all those times per day is worse than getting on for leadership, IMO.
What about a collect all/ re-queue button? What about marking tasks as 'favorites'? How about actually making a worthwhile filter? If it can't be botted anymore, these should absolutely on the table.
I guess you don't know you don't need to refine AD yourself at all. If you don't refine any AD (through game or gateway), your raw AD will be refined automatically overnight (within the 24K per day limit) without your involvement.
Devs then increased the duration of key AD generating leadership professions and made farming ADs via dungeon runs impossible. Most casual players are bathing in poverty now, and this...
If AD generating methods are continually hit, it is only fair that they tweak the AD sinks to commensurate with the reasonable amount of ADs an average player can generate legitimately.
However, I'm not optimistic on this, I'm probably going to bet my last dollar that the AD sinks will remain despite all the restrictions imposed on AD generation.
The item does not have to cheap. You pay money to a botter. The botter gives you something "valuable" through mail.
You post the item for the specific amount. The botter buys the item. AD transferred. If another person paid the same price to buy that item before the botter, botter does not care.
I don't think there is a delay. I believe the "delay" you see is the clock difference between the client application (not your computer's system clock) and the server. If you reload the page, the clock will be sync again.
When I see the task stopped and no reward, I reload the page and I will see the clock becomes something like 50 secs (for example). When that count down to 0, I will see the reward right the way.
The delay is in-game and it looks like it is client side only functionality both on the gateway and in-game. You can reload the page on the gateway but not in-game.
Neverwinter Census 2017
All posts pending disapproval by Cecilia
I suppose captcha costs money...
Either that or right now the collective group of 4 developers working on this game putting their brains together to make horrible hasted decisions are like... "well <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font>... that ain't a half bad idea..."
This shows botting Leadership in Gateway is rampant, and actually is a very good reason to block it. OP really is undermining his own position with his arguments. Botting can NEVER be allowed, and I cheer on Cryptic's efforts to stop it.
Leadership will still be doable from inside the game, and IMO it actually is faster to do it from game client than manually from Gateway. So only those legit players that does not have access to their game PC will suffer. That should be a small part of the total user community, so I really see no big issue in blocking Leadership from Gateway.
It is a bit sad that the game developers need to take such measures because of ill behaving 'players' though.
Author of GWF Speed Demon PvP Build (Mod 11) <- Click to reveal the Speedy Beast! >:)
I play since beta and I knew from the beginning, that the most effective way to make AD is a leadership army. I did not do it, bc it is no fun. I farmed dungeons, events etc, salvaged on my twinks, to get the AD. Dont get e wrong, to run the same dungeon hundreds of times, to earn some AD is not my idea of fun, but if you do it with some friends, it is ok.
Then Mod 6 comes along, new gear, new ranks, new artefacts etc. If you want decent gear you need ADs and refinement points. What are the other changes in Mod 6? They nerfed salvage, they nerfed leadership, they nerfed RP drops, they deleted some dungeons, they buffed the monsters, so that a new/ moderate geared player needs a group for SOLO play or gear up.
Wait, you cant gear up, bc they nerfed AD/ RP gain to the ground. What to do, if you dont want to spent xxxx $? Make some leadership alts and get them to lvl 25, get RP from lvl 24 task and AD from lvl 25/ 20 tasks.
This wont hurt the players with leadership lvl 25 armies, bc they have to reset once a day. This wont hurt botters, bc they will use a ingame script. This will hurt regular players who WORK and used gateway to reset their tasks.
How does just a 'small part' have no access to their game PC 24/7? Do you think, that just students, freelancers and unemployed ppl play MMOs?
Because 95% is repetetive brainless grinding and clicking. While most of the FIX costs are uber high.
Their best selling ZEN item would be a game change token :-D
You obviously did not read my original post then. I was not saying that I should bot to make money, as I do not bot. What I said is that bot provide a decent amount of inflation to the value of the few items we are capable of farming... so when I go farm the summer event for foods I can make half a GMOP for a decent amount of effort. If you plan to make comments please understand the situation. If you think leadership is do-able from in game... please try it... I dare you.. the inability to use leadership on multiple characters quickly through the gateway was glorious for what little good it did... regardless leadership is basically un-levelable... it requires so much exp to level that at a certain point you basically get nothing... and if you think they are doing this because it was hurting players... you are sadly mistaken.. they are doing this because at least in the instance of a few players... it was probably hurting their potential income.
Either way it was a rash decision made by a company desperate to solve a problem without actually doing anything. If they wanted to remove leadership bots that provide a lot of money into the total economy that is fine by me... it doesn't hurt my income... however... it will hurt my income as the pool of AD starts to dry up because nobody is capable of making any AD in game. They provide no outlet for us regular players to make money besides farming stuff and selling it to people that bot... If they gave us a way to actually make AD I wouldn't even be upset.
> Couldn't it be easier just to cap AD amounts in AH on items? The for-profit botters sell AD via auction house by having AD buyers post some cheap item with a ridiculous buyout prices. An algorithmic cap on AH items would create an inconvenience for these botters and they would take their 'business' elsewhere and it wouldn't interfere with legit player's remote management options for their professions.
They have caps on how many AD's a person can refine every day, they have upper and lower caps on how much a person must offer to sell or buy zen, why can't they make the selling of items in the AH unprofitable or find a way to make any item purchased from the AH bind to account (please gawd not bound to character).
How about a salvage function for all gear picked up from quests instead of just level 60 epic gear? Then people will have an opportunity to play the game and get something actually rewarding instead of selling items for a few coppers.
There are so many things that could {emphasis on could} have been done before deciding to just flip the switch, which primarily effects the people who cannot afford to spend hour upon hour in the game.
As powerful as the devs see the black market being now, its about to get much worse, given that botters are going to have even more power over the price of items in the AH. They will switch to the bots that log in and swap professions in game, which many legit players cannot do multiple times a day every day. The gap between legit players' income and botters' income will increase. They will gain complete, or at best near-complete, control of the high end items' pricing, simply by buying them out and setting prices outside the range of what legit players can afford - which in a short time may simply mean maintaining today's prices while legit players continue to lose avenues of income. Price setting will then push players to go buy AD or items from the botters directly. Its really not that difficult to understand: its how all black market economies become powerful determinants of legit economies IRL. Why would anyone expect it to be different within a game's economy?
Not necessarily. For those of us with periodic insomnia (mild case of PTSD from the Gulf War here), we could be logging in to the Gateway for legitimate reasons merely because we only sleep a few hours at a time.
I am standing by to see how they fill in the blanks on this change but it is very disconcerting. The bots will now just login to the game itself and do their Leaderships stuff. They farm RP in Arcane Reservoir and Black Lake, why does Cryptic (I hesitate to say devs because the decision may have come from above) think that this will be any different? If nothing else, they (and we) could use something like Logmein or TeamViewer to login to a computer, load the game and run the stuff from there.
Every change they've made regarding the economy has only caused legitimate players pain and heartache - keys bound to account, Coal wards bound, decreasing the non-Leadership AD generation via Dungeons and salvaging, Rank 11/12 enchants requiring less RP than R7-10, artifact gear at every turn, total abandonment of the foundry, bringing BACK set bonuses just so we have to grind that stuff out (after it was stated that they wanted to give us the freedom to choose our setup), the huge XP increase that penalizes not only new players but regulars that want to level up an alt, etc and that doesn't even cover the long running bugs that are affecting players, not bots.
Perhaps they need to just bite the bullet, get rid of AD and make everything a gold piece purchase. That way, they could at least set some secret daily limit of gp transfers and ban anyone that went above it. I mean, other than the almost-useless Level 70 potions we now have and swapping enchants, what do we all do with our gold? I probably have 2K gp across my toons and most of it has been there since at least Mod 4 if not before.
Or, possibly a better idea - make Black Ice the coin of the realm.
I kid . . . . but only slightly.