drkbodhiMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 2,378Arc User
One of my guildies had a valid point... no that they have to enter the game... PE will be filled at all times with toons. They will park them somewhere and just bot Leadership in game.
I have offered a long list of solutions... that WILL work. I know they will work because these actions have saved business and economies from collapse. They way to overcome any conflict is to act with a valid well-thought out response... not react with a sharp action. In order to get this response... you need to think calmly and out of the box.
Cryptic has done some VERY damaging things to this game, recently, that they are now reacting to... the actions a community has done with their changes. There is an Economic Depression in NWO... created by the lack of income possibilities.. This is VERY similar to the Great Depression in the US and the current depression that many of the world's economies find themselves in.
The way out is not by restricting more abilities to earn a wage(AD). The way out is to increase consumer spending... by increasing the wages delivered. Another Econ 101 lesson.
Maybe you guys can't figure this out... since many MMOs have taken this same path before dramatic drop is it's player base. But there are people that you can hire that will help you with this. You guys are computer nerds... that is cool as hell... you need nerds of another kind working with you. A balanced company is a successful company.
Atwil "At" - Tiefling TR / Saardush - Black Dragonborn GWF / White - Tiefling OP
If you remove Leadership from the gateway, I am done. And I PROMISE to take as many other players with me that I can. Some people have NO CLUE how to run a successful gaming company. Wake the hell up!
Botters are going to bot, just like PC virus makers are going to keep making PC viruses. They will ALWAYS compensate for changes and stay one step ahead!
All you are doing is punishing the legit players who are already struggling to maintain interest in this decaying game. Sad. Bad move!
myles08807 said, "Back in my day, we didn't have any of this fancy Mulhorand gear while we were leveling . . . we walked uphill both ways while dying once every five seconds while leveling, and we liked it fine!" . . . Now, get off my lawn, you kids!" pointsman said, "I don't rue the game. In fact I don't feel any regret for the game at all." looomis said, "I don't like people changing to alts and then bragging about their mains like schizophrenic role players."
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instynctiveMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,885Arc User
This is what needs to be implemented, it stops the bots and lets the players use it legit!
And people will still whine about it "interrupting" or "I need those two seconds of my life!"
Actually, the only real solution to combat the Gateway botting is for them to give the most prolific botter a job, combating other botters. They could probably even compensate them with AD.
That this "solution" will stop bots maybe for 5 min is kinda obvious. Legit players on the other hand will suffer much since either will they have to spend more time on boring stuff or they'll lost at least part of their income.
Sometimes it really looks like if devs were sabotaging this game on purpose.
well i am done with this game ... i tried to justify a lot for still playing it. but now its over! today we will have a meeting with all guildies - and i can say everyone is boiling inside since mod6 already -
this will be the last nail in the coffin.
cryptic its unbelieveable what you did to this raw diamond over the years - steadily killing everything i liked about htis game..
over and out - cya
LOL leadership hahah, this is the minor problem inGame OMG!
Who really care about botting cuz there's a time limit that they have to wait, to get AD / accept.
Goldsellers dont care, they are making millions of AD per day, selling packs or Stuffs/Enchantments on Auktionshaus!!
EASIER than Botting Gateway! lol
DEVS focus on Fix, Classes/Enchantments the Balance between classes overall
this should be your main task!
I already stop playing this game since 2-3 weeks,
i'll probably look at M7 and i will decide if i keep playing or NOT.
<::::::[]==0 GwF 0==[]::::::> ● Still waiting for the promised Improvement ● xgrandz02
I agree here. There had to have been a better solution. It's NOT easy to detect the professional botters, anyone who thinks so truly doesn't understand the realities. But, just because it's not easy to detect them doesn't mean smaller, incremental steps aren't possible. The only thing I can think of that would explain the succession of nuclear option changes here is simply that Cryptic is understaffed and simply doesn't have the bandwidth to implement smaller incremental changes, monitor those, and go from there based on the results. If that's the case... I can fully understand why things have gone the way they have, but it's a very very bad sign for the future of the game as a whole.
I should note, I hate botters and I generally support anything done to combat the problem. However, again, I think taking only very large and rather hamfisted measure that require legit players sacrifice something that's valuable to them in order to increase security against bots is... unfortunate. Sadly, it reminds me of real-world affairs, and that's REALLY too bad.
[...]
Why not prompt captchas? Was that even considered?
I suppose captcha costs money...
Either that or right now the collective group of 4 developers working on this game putting their brains together to make horrible hasted decisions are like... "well <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font>... that ain't a half bad idea..."
After Mod 7, it's going to be 2 interns working in a shed in South Dakota.
You can't continue to ignore mass-outcry (like this thread) and expect to be successful.
If anti-botting is the cause (and I"m not 100% convinced Zen revenue is not the real agenda) then this decision wasn't very well thought out. It can be botted? D-e-l-e-t-e-d. Good luck with continuing that strategy. You'll paint yourself into a corner and alienate legit players...the very last of the kool-aid drinkers.
<shout> Iceberg ahead! </shout>
Gold spammers and real botters use a modified client. They've been doing that for ages; they might not even know what Gateway is.
Now, the only reason why this might improve the economy is that such a large base of players will leave and it will stop being profitable for all those websites to sell in-game stuffs for cash.
Question is - will the next development step make the grind more interesting? This gets back to the age-old community request - give us more better dungeons. Don't just give us Spellplague and Karrundax and CN back (although CN is fun) - we want actually new big dungeons (Lostmauth does not count, it's a skirmish-level run). Will this happen? You got the "Dragons" part covered - now we need Dungeons.
Couldn't it be easier just to cap AD amounts in AH on items? The for-profit botters sell AD via auction house by having AD buyers post some cheap item with a ridiculous buyout prices. An algorithmic cap on AH items would create an inconvenience for these botters and they would take their 'business' elsewhere and it wouldn't interfere with legit player's remote management options for their professions.
The item does not have to cheap. You pay money to a botter. The botter gives you something "valuable" through mail.
You post the item for the specific amount. The botter buys the item. AD transferred. If another person paid the same price to buy that item before the botter, botter does not care.
True but then the buyer who buys AD from the vendors wants it 'NOW!'. They don't want to have to turn around and sell an item in a market flooded with other 'expensive' items made cheap because everyone has to undercut constantly to get their AD in a timely manner.
So after i have put countless hours to get couple characters farm my ad legit on gateway they took it away. Thanks keep your game, thank god this ain't only mmo. I'm out, keep your game.
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plasticbatMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 12,296Arc User
True but then the buyer who buys AD from the vendors wants it 'NOW!'. They don't want to have to turn around and sell an item in a market flooded with other 'expensive' items made cheap because everyone has to undercut constantly to get their AD in a timely manner.
Buyer and seller want it now AND they want to be safe and not raising red flag to be banned. Although PWE did not do that, it does not mean they will not do it. Buyer and botter do not want to take the risk, at least, the smarter one. Also, the item need to be kind of distinct because character name shown in AH can be the same especially the game generated name.
*** The game can read your mind. If you want it, you won't get it. If you don't expect to get it, you will. ***
In my opinion, all this discussion about the methods used to exploit the game are counter productive in this thread... I think the points been made and I'm tired of getting notifications about this thread, so I'm unwatching it. (I know no one cares! I'm a universe unto myself, dang it.)
It sounds to me the argument of the OP is that he needs to be allowed to bot Leadership in the Gateway to make game fun.
This shows botting Leadership in Gateway is rampant, and actually is a very good reason to block it. OP really is undermining his own position with his arguments. Botting can NEVER be allowed, and I cheer on Cryptic's efforts to stop it.
Leadership will still be doable from inside the game, and IMO it actually is faster to do it from game client than manually from Gateway. So only those legit players that does not have access to their game PC will suffer. That should be a small part of the total user community, so I really see no big issue in blocking Leadership from Gateway.
It is a bit sad that the game developers need to take such measures because of ill behaving 'players' though.
If everything should be done in game why did they make the Gateway in the first place? Your comprehension seems limited at best.
So does this mean people who are used to farming Leadership manually on the Gateway will need to learn how to bot in game because they can no longer make AD farming Leadership manually on the Gateway? Help, I've fallen into a recursive loop and I can't get up...
And yes, I know 'recursive loop' is a redundancy. Redundancy is a recursive loop.
The next thing that might happen is, that everyone who did a 'splitrun' with a valable drop gets banned as AD-sellers/ buyers, when they use the AH to split the loot.
Another 'great' idea would be to watch trade-logs. If a former guildmate starts playing again and you give him some enchants, companions etc, bam you can get banned.
Seriously, thre is no way to control this small transactions, but if someone sells 50 stacks of R5s etc. every day, even I know, that he is a botter, but dont ban them, lets hurt the legit players.
If you remove Leadership from the gateway, I am done. And I PROMISE to take as many other players with me that I can. Some people have NO CLUE how to run a successful gaming company. Wake the hell up!
Botters are going to bot, just like PC virus makers are going to keep making PC viruses. They will ALWAYS compensate for changes and stay one step ahead!
All you are doing is punishing the legit players who are already struggling to maintain interest in this decaying game. Sad. Bad move!
Given your history of being one of the more optimistic posters that's saying quite a lot.
I mean, seriously, when devs plan a big move like this do they bother to ask even one single player whether they think it's a good idea?
'I've had all I can stands and I can't stands no more' - Popeye the Sailor Man
Let´s see. When I´m at work, the only way to make AD (manage proffs) is with my cell phone. So, now I can´t do this? Well, every day you push people to the botting way,,,
Let´s see. When I´m at work, the only way to make AD (manage proffs) is with my cell phone. So, now I can´t do this? Well, every day you push people to the botting way,,,
Same, I work 2 jobs and 13 hour days, I don't feel like spending an hour each nightdoing what I can do now on my commute abd between meetings.
I'm curious about those who have such busy lives that can't even log in to the game, why are you using the gateway even then? is pressing a button a few times a day fun to you? what's the point of using professions and geting ad if you can't even play the game? I really don't get it.
I'm curious about those who have such busy lives that can't even log in to the game, why are you using the gateway even then? is pressing a button a few times a day fun to you? what's the point of using professions and geting ad if you can't even play the game? I really don't get it.
I get a few hours a night to play games, id rather spend them playing instead of clicking 'collect the whole time
if you need 1 hour to do professions, you probably have a leadership army, and that to me is part of the problem. (not saying YOU are part of the problem, since cryptic made it available in the first place) but to me it's not how the game should be played.
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plasticbatMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 12,296Arc User
if you need 1 hour to do professions, you probably have a leadership army, and that to me is part of the problem. (not saying YOU are part of the problem, since cryptic made it available in the first place) but to me it's not how the game should be played.
You don't need one hour to do leadership but leadership task finishes in different time. When I am playing a character, I don't want to logout to manage another character's leadership profession. I did not need to but now, I do.
That means it will cut out the guild chat, etc.
Different people plays their game differently. They play it their own way. There is no right or wrong.
*** The game can read your mind. If you want it, you won't get it. If you don't expect to get it, you will. ***
Comments
I have offered a long list of solutions... that WILL work. I know they will work because these actions have saved business and economies from collapse. They way to overcome any conflict is to act with a valid well-thought out response... not react with a sharp action. In order to get this response... you need to think calmly and out of the box.
Cryptic has done some VERY damaging things to this game, recently, that they are now reacting to... the actions a community has done with their changes. There is an Economic Depression in NWO... created by the lack of income possibilities.. This is VERY similar to the Great Depression in the US and the current depression that many of the world's economies find themselves in.
The way out is not by restricting more abilities to earn a wage(AD). The way out is to increase consumer spending... by increasing the wages delivered. Another Econ 101 lesson.
Maybe you guys can't figure this out... since many MMOs have taken this same path before dramatic drop is it's player base. But there are people that you can hire that will help you with this. You guys are computer nerds... that is cool as hell... you need nerds of another kind working with you. A balanced company is a successful company.
If you remove Leadership from the gateway, I am done. And I PROMISE to take as many other players with me that I can. Some people have NO CLUE how to run a successful gaming company. Wake the hell up!
Botters are going to bot, just like PC virus makers are going to keep making PC viruses. They will ALWAYS compensate for changes and stay one step ahead!
All you are doing is punishing the legit players who are already struggling to maintain interest in this decaying game. Sad. Bad move!
myles08807 said, "Back in my day, we didn't have any of this fancy Mulhorand gear while we were leveling . . . we walked uphill both ways while dying once every five seconds while leveling, and we liked it fine!" . . . Now, get off my lawn, you kids!"
pointsman said, "I don't rue the game. In fact I don't feel any regret for the game at all."
looomis said, "I don't like people changing to alts and then bragging about their mains like schizophrenic role players."
And people will still whine about it "interrupting" or "I need those two seconds of my life!"
Actually, the only real solution to combat the Gateway botting is for them to give the most prolific botter a job, combating other botters. They could probably even compensate them with AD.
"...I grab my wiener and charge!" - ironzerg79
Sometimes it really looks like if devs were sabotaging this game on purpose.
this will be the last nail in the coffin.
cryptic its unbelieveable what you did to this raw diamond over the years - steadily killing everything i liked about htis game..
over and out - cya
this is the minor problem inGame OMG!
Who really care about botting cuz there's a time limit that they have to wait, to get AD / accept.
Goldsellers dont care, they are making millions of AD per day, selling packs or Stuffs/Enchantments on Auktionshaus!!
EASIER than Botting Gateway! lol
DEVS focus on Fix, Classes/Enchantments the Balance between classes overall
this should be your main task!
I already stop playing this game since 2-3 weeks,
i'll probably look at M7 and i will decide if i keep playing or NOT.
I agree here. There had to have been a better solution. It's NOT easy to detect the professional botters, anyone who thinks so truly doesn't understand the realities. But, just because it's not easy to detect them doesn't mean smaller, incremental steps aren't possible. The only thing I can think of that would explain the succession of nuclear option changes here is simply that Cryptic is understaffed and simply doesn't have the bandwidth to implement smaller incremental changes, monitor those, and go from there based on the results. If that's the case... I can fully understand why things have gone the way they have, but it's a very very bad sign for the future of the game as a whole.
I should note, I hate botters and I generally support anything done to combat the problem. However, again, I think taking only very large and rather hamfisted measure that require legit players sacrifice something that's valuable to them in order to increase security against bots is... unfortunate. Sadly, it reminds me of real-world affairs, and that's REALLY too bad.
Sekhmet@kvetchus_
Guilds: Greycloaks, Blackcloaks, Whitecloaks, Goldcloaks, Browncloaks, Spiritcloaks, Bluecloaks, Silvercloaks, Black Dawn
Tredecim: The Cloak Alliance
After Mod 7, it's going to be 2 interns working in a shed in South Dakota.
You can't continue to ignore mass-outcry (like this thread) and expect to be successful.
If anti-botting is the cause (and I"m not 100% convinced Zen revenue is not the real agenda) then this decision wasn't very well thought out. It can be botted? D-e-l-e-t-e-d. Good luck with continuing that strategy. You'll paint yourself into a corner and alienate legit players...the very last of the kool-aid drinkers.
<shout> Iceberg ahead! </shout>
Now, the only reason why this might improve the economy is that such a large base of players will leave and it will stop being profitable for all those websites to sell in-game stuffs for cash.
Question is - will the next development step make the grind more interesting? This gets back to the age-old community request - give us more better dungeons. Don't just give us Spellplague and Karrundax and CN back (although CN is fun) - we want actually new big dungeons (Lostmauth does not count, it's a skirmish-level run). Will this happen? You got the "Dragons" part covered - now we need Dungeons.
True but then the buyer who buys AD from the vendors wants it 'NOW!'. They don't want to have to turn around and sell an item in a market flooded with other 'expensive' items made cheap because everyone has to undercut constantly to get their AD in a timely manner.
Buyer and seller want it now AND they want to be safe and not raising red flag to be banned. Although PWE did not do that, it does not mean they will not do it. Buyer and botter do not want to take the risk, at least, the smarter one. Also, the item need to be kind of distinct because character name shown in AH can be the same especially the game generated name.
Sekhmet@kvetchus_
Guilds: Greycloaks, Blackcloaks, Whitecloaks, Goldcloaks, Browncloaks, Spiritcloaks, Bluecloaks, Silvercloaks, Black Dawn
Tredecim: The Cloak Alliance
If everything should be done in game why did they make the Gateway in the first place? Your comprehension seems limited at best.
And yes, I know 'recursive loop' is a redundancy. Redundancy is a recursive loop.
Another 'great' idea would be to watch trade-logs. If a former guildmate starts playing again and you give him some enchants, companions etc, bam you can get banned.
Seriously, thre is no way to control this small transactions, but if someone sells 50 stacks of R5s etc. every day, even I know, that he is a botter, but dont ban them, lets hurt the legit players.
Given your history of being one of the more optimistic posters that's saying quite a lot.
I mean, seriously, when devs plan a big move like this do they bother to ask even one single player whether they think it's a good idea?
'I've had all I can stands and I can't stands no more' - Popeye the Sailor Man
Same, I work 2 jobs and 13 hour days, I don't feel like spending an hour each nightdoing what I can do now on my commute abd between meetings.
I get a few hours a night to play games, id rather spend them playing instead of clicking 'collect the whole time
You don't need one hour to do leadership but leadership task finishes in different time. When I am playing a character, I don't want to logout to manage another character's leadership profession. I did not need to but now, I do.
That means it will cut out the guild chat, etc.
Different people plays their game differently. They play it their own way. There is no right or wrong.