It seems to me you're both saying that just because it's the enchantments' fault, basically, this gives you a get out of jail free card, and lets roast the TR on a stick. Not that the TR doesn't deserve it, but no broken power interactions, whether it is enchantment-related or isolated to one class, gets to escape the nerf bat. I would put everything on that list, especially avalanche, and then sort them by priority, BUT nothing is left out for no reason whatsoever.
Better to honestly retune SE first, then you'll see where the classes stand. Most GWF players are blindsighted by SE, failing to understand that the only thing hurting them, at all, is this piercing krap. I personally would give away all piercing damage just to have our encounter powers worth slotting.
You should know that tenacity DR and crit DR hurt us the most. Piercing is all this class has going, and yes, it's too wrong to try to justify still. Permastealth means nothing if you can hold a node against 4 people but can't contest it.
Simply put, this current fotm of TR is an all-or-nothing card.
What I have suggested before was to rework piercing to "instead pierce all shields, personal shields and damage immunities" and not mitigation and tenacity. This allows us to do better against DC/OP whom we are practically hopeless against, and not overpowered against the rest of you.
1 - Not me. I were asking what makes GWF-class OP outside "T.Feytouched + T.Negation" combo and that comparing "enchantments and boons" with classes' mechanics is "plain stupid and wrong".
The entire GWF mechanics itself. TFey + TNeg is just a part of the overall symptom which amplifies the currently existing problems with the GWF, and we've gone over this many times so I probably don't need to repeat it. Just to clarify as a FYI for people who may have not been around those past discussions, to sum it up, the GWFs are the following:
"A class that is riddled so many problems in general combat efficiency, that it is currently smothered up with ludicrous amount of damage buffs provided from the devs in hopes to cover it up."
...the end result being that once a GWF is prepared to over a certain level, allowing it to survive long enough to make use of those damage buffs, then from that point on its just a comedy show where the GWF runs around like swinging a 7 foor long hammer in hopes to connect one or two good shots which just instantly finishes the fight. Overpowered? You betcha.
2- GWFs, CWs, other TR players, HRs, SWs, GFs, OPs time to time, DCs... forgot any class??? dont think so. Also, TR-class already has encounters which are worth slot... in fact most classes do. something must be wrong on this game while players from a class (GWF) are asking a realiable way to land IBS in enchange of damage (Example)
TRs are in a much better spot since mod5 where the devs have finally taken in the plea from TR players and have 'redesigned' the class from the bottom up. This is true. So far, over the course of mod5, 6 and 7, the QOL for TRs have been great.
However -- believe me when I say this -- even in the current state, many of TR encounters are just krap, and has basically the same problems as the GWFs. With an exception of just a handful of powers the TRs use, all the rest of powers, we do not use it for a good reason.
Those powers are either;
(a) clunky or buggy
(b) old and outdated design that don't even work in PvE nowadays
(c) gimmicky "wow factor" and no real use, be it damage or utility
(d) or any combination of the above
Exactly the same with GWFs. Heck, frankly speaking most classes are like this.
3 - If 4 players are on a node vs a TR the most wrong thing there would be that the TR could contest the node vs 4 players... BUT, i think you dont wanted to mean this, right?
rustlord probably had WK TRs in mind when he said that, because he, too, has joined the ranks of "TR players fed-up with stupid and bland cheesy Sabo CoS spamming fest", and decided to play a TR build that has none of the 'overpowered' elements people point out when they talk about TRs.
So in our shoes, being the 'non-majority' TRs that refuse to play Sabo+MI builds... we :
(a) don't have ITC, and thus very honestly vulnerable when we are visible
(b) don't have SE, so we don't condone stupid and cheesy one-shot powers
(c) don't have permastealth or perfect-rotation semipermas, hence we take risks in all of our attacks
(d) don't have stealth buffs, so like clockwork every 6~7 seconds or less, we are out of stealth
(e) don't have stuff like Shadowy Opportunity, and hence we risk using stronger melee powers
(f) the prior "problems" such as 'permadaze' or '1-shot SoD' is currently all nerfed and under control
(g) hence, all of above combined, we engage in fights with quite fair chances for our opponents to retaliate
The consensus amongst us 'non-majority TRs' is that our TR builds are totally fair and balanced concerning the current relative power balance between the classes, so if there's another "general blanket nerf that affects ALL TRs" then this means the Sabos will still find someway to weasle out of it and thus remain OP, while all the rest of us TRs who have actively opposed those 'majority TRs' and their cheesy, scumbag builds, will once again go way of the dodo.
So I think rustlord's reaction was more of a worrisome alert rather than anything specific in particular, which I would tend to agree
4 - from my own PoV: TR class is an "all win situations". Insane damage from S.E. + stealth + control (Smoke bomb) + survivality (Dodges + ITC) . This, on class itself using MI paragon. So, i will not talk about "trees", which can make some big changes on that math.
This has been addressed in the passage above
5 - I suggested to remove it (piercing damage) from the game and make S.E. using "HP treshold" as it was on Mod2.
Another solution i came long time ago, which was rejected by most TRoll-players, was the fact that S.E.'s damage shall be halved on PvP IF piercing damage stays on the game. 50k crit and unmitigable damage seems fine to me. So, if a TR from any tree wants to deal DAMAGE with it, then, they shall stack POWER as other classes must do too (stack a stat).[/ccolor]
Any TR player who says current SE, or Sabo meta is fine, is a TRoll.
The level of general stupidity and laziness involved with the dumbshi*, "fling CoS and dodge around merrily in stealth, until AP full to spam SE" meta, does more harm to us TRs in that it produces masses and masses of incompetent players with no understanding of the class and simply follows a routine of mass-production that is devoid of any real brainwork.
Ironically, this also very closely resembles the very old mod2 pattern of TR gameplay, when SE hit like a meteor that brought upon the K-T Extinction event 65 million years ago, and was impossible to dodge. In those days GWFs were the demigods, and practically only classes that had any chance of bringing down GWFs in a 1v1 scenario, were us TRs that abused such powerful SE. The pattern's exactly the same. Fling around CoS and remain under combat long enough to fill up AP ASAP, and then spam an undodgeable SE upon the GWF to kill it.
The implications are quite clear. The current reality of the MI/Sabos, is that they went right back to the exact model of the "old TRs", which mod5 wanted to get rid of. They operate in the exact same way: Fighting from invisibility with extremely low chance of retaliation, gather up AP, and then spam SE.
They are retro, and counter-intuitive to the direction of PvP combat that we all should be headed in. And for that reason, they hurt the gameplay.
Stop making excuses. Be a man. If you know something to be broken, stop using it. Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
Permastealth means nothing if you can hold a node against 4 people but can't contest it.
And what I meant by this is simply that, permastealth is next to pointless, even to the extent you are making your team lose by playing this way. You should know that the node contesting change has my vote, and I enjoy the new system. So this statement was meant to "prune permastealth from the useful fotm list".
What have we left? Let's look at the MI TRs. Remove ITC. Remove SE. Remove SO. Take this from someone who knows builds, what could I possibly do next without those powers hypothetically speaking? This is plain buildcrafting so listen;
1. Likeliest possibility to use perma courage breaker... which is actually a bit exaggerated. CB Lasts 14 seconds, and stack all the AP gain items, you can bring recharge speed down to as close as 30 seconds, leaving you half the time avoiding certain death. Good luck on that without ITC. But what good is a 90% slow debuff? Of course, lets land Duelist Flurry and hello Avalanche!
2. There's probably no viable #2. So what I meant by "all or nothing" was that MI is sh*t without SE, without ITC, without SO. Heck we might even rejoice because we're playing Whisperknife, we of all people know how weak our brothers are without their broken cr*p.
Speaking of WK, this is the balanced path that we play, that I still play, that I don't have the heart to give up yet. Do I play it just because I don't condone abusing broken krap? That's part of it. But I play it because IMO, it's the next best build to the fotm that is not overpowered. When you see me in PvP, you can complain about my permadodge, and I would tell you to blame Elven Battle, because it's the enchantment's fault.
Having established myself as a point of comparison, how do I fare against the GWFs who are "over a certain level" as kweassa clarified. This means BiS Trans Neg/Fey ones vs my Trans Elven/Vorpal TR. I make damn sure it takes a lot of work to fight me, but for me to even imagine clearing a GWF "over a certain level" I need to move heaven and earth to do so. I can't very well stack a good rotation of Duelist Flurry because of Avalanche.
This is what class balance looks like post-nerfing SE piercing and ITC.
So I add this one final caveat, and I will rest my case. Fix Shocking Execution only when you devs f****n fix AVALANCHE already. This will address a lot of QoL amongst most classes.
Oh my stars and bars... let's not even start on Avalanche... LOL...
The number#1 reason why them GWFs and GFs can be so cocky -- Avalanche. Doesn't matter even if this TR manages some very clever and intelligent gameplay... gain the advantage, strike while they cannot strike you, and bam!, the other guy doesn't even swing his weapon once, but like 40% of your own HP gone...
Yeah, let's not go there. LOL!
Stop making excuses. Be a man. If you know something to be broken, stop using it. Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
Oh but we should. All they talk about is how hard it is to land IBS... I bet they can't do a single round of DF on a moving, thinking, actual target. And for all the work on IBS, you are rewarded fairly. For all the work landing a DF.... you die from Avalanche.
icyphishMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,255Arc User
I dont use IBS and those that fought me knows about it, but I can definitely confirm its really hard to land against good players... almost impossible to be honest.... if you fight players like Kalina or Schiender, the chance to hit them with IBS without stun/prone them first, its like 5% the chance I guess... try it and you would know..
As to the chance of GWF landing IBS on a skilled TR its even lower and we all know why...
On the other hand, a TR's chance of landing a hit on a GWF.... I guess its close to 100%?
I am not complaining about the mechanism as every class is different and is unique and should retain their own play style, however I do hope that SE's damage gets revised as per TR's tree or whats better, offer GWF/SW a mechanism that allows us to actually skillfully time to dodge the big hits or reduce the incoming damage, not a Sure Hit at such a high damage...
I do agree with the TRs above that SE is one of the very few attacks they have that deals MASSIVE DAMAGE, and I do agree that SE's damage should be reduced at the same time increase TR's other encounters' damage so they do not have to relay on one daily to deal all the damage.
The reason why GWF complains and as TR understands, its basically because SE hits on average 60~80K damage and is not dodgable/mitigable by GWF, and this skill can be casted up to approximately 3 times within 1 minute. (DevSig at the start 1SE then SnailNeck AP Gain for another about 30 seconds later, then DevSigil is ready for 3rd one).
Just imagine if your class has no ability to dodge/heal/block and 3 x 60k~80k hit you within 1 minute... I dont think you would be very happy with that...?
The hitbox from SE is <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> and the fact that you might get oneshooted standing 30 feet away from the spot it was once casted
Just correct the range, make it behave like IBS and it will disappear from most skilled fights
The hitbox from SE is <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> and the fact that you might get oneshooted standing 30 feet away from the spot it was once casted
Just correct the range, make it behave like IBS and it will disappear from most skilled fights
Not nearly enough.
I've not been a MI for more than 6 mods, but I can guarantee you that if I switch over to a MI, I can pretty much very simply land SE at even a melee-attack range against any GWF if I desire so. Currently, SE has (IIRC) 28' range, and this merely makes it easier to spam SE like an idiot and still expect hits. If the effective range is adjusted to be shorter, then all it takes for the idiots that spam SE, is to simply learn a few steps of prep/setup before using it and that's basically it.
Of course, it'll bring the damage down somewhat, since first strike will be spent during the preparation phase, but basically any timely CC inducing attack from stealth (in case of Sabos most probably SS) and and the GWF is skrewed.
IMO it takes two different individual fixes to bring down SE in line with other high-power daily attacks:
(1) change in the way it deals its damage, and how it interacts with defense mechanics
(2) a change with the GWF sprint itself
I'd actually support changes to GWF sprint so that it becomes a true 'dodge' power. Of course, it's not going to be just fine and dandy to GWFs if these changes occur. Being changed into a power that has immunity frames would probably mean the power would then also not be allowed to be used like sprint -- as in long-distance gap closing.
In my guess, it would probably resemble something like the "dash/hop" you see in some contemporary fighting games, like you hop/skip forward, which the hop/skip action would receive immunity frames. The amount of stamina spent would probably be similar to TR dodges, making for about maybe 3~4 dodges in a row. The distance would definitely be shorter than the TR's long rolling dodge.
I fully expect that if these line of changes occur, probably the GWF would be able to advance forward in quick 3~4 successions of that "dash/hop" move, but the overall distance travelled by spending the full stamina pool would probably be less than half of the distance the GWF can currently cover with a full-blown sprint. Of course stamina regeneration rate would probably be similar to TRs.
This means that the GWF will be then able to receive a full defensive dodge with immunity frames, but at the price, will suffer a lot in its ability to cover long distances very quickly... so prior to the change when a GWF can single out a CW or a HR standing in the back of the enemy formation and then close distance to engage in mere seconds, or conversely, the GWF can choose to run away to safety and extend the distance also in that short time, with the new "dash" available the GWFs would lose that mobility and will likely be more committed.
So I'm not sure if all GWFs will welcome these changes, but IMO it's the only way to make sure that the GWFs do not suffer from "hits they have no way of avoiding", because SE is not the only heavy hitting power that the GWFs cannot avoid.
Stop making excuses. Be a man. If you know something to be broken, stop using it. Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
The reason that neither sprint or shadow slip work as a true dodge is that you can do small bursts. If allowed to have an immunity frame like basic dodges, it's really easy to abuse that kind of power. That's why you get more DR (and correct me if I'm wrong for GWF, I've more recently been just playing an SW) but that alone does not compensate enough. Add to it, piercing ignores it.
ON the other hand, if you were to get a real dodge, you've got to follow the same mechanic that dodge consumes a fixed amount of stamina and covers a fixed amount of distance. You're going to lose your gap closer, your dash-behind-the-GF, your panic button, and I'll lose my Gran Turismo move on my Warlock. I don't know about you, but that's one change I'd have to think about first before I can commit if it will be for the better or worse.
We just can't have sprint+damage immunity the way basic dodges work. It's one or the other.
@rustlord: DR is only for SW on Shadow Slip-
beside this it doesn't matter TR-Piercing dmg
Can ignore the complete DR or defense
deflection or sometimes tenacity.
TR can "Ignore any kind of Defense", thanks the max FREE crit!!
SE is doing over 100k- this is just too Crazy Overpowered!
I got currently around 104k HP+ 8DEF+ 4Deflect FULL Elemental PvP Gear, one SINGLE SE Killed me!
Come on DEV's is this your intention!?
Here's an excellent example,
that my Sprint is a Biggest disadvantage ever and "Not as a Dodge skill usable!
- Courage Breaker -
* the Duration of it is way too long, specially for me as GWF.
* with "Sprint there no way to move, till the time is over.
* All other Class with Dodge skills, they can still move. (or Blocking as GF)
* as GWF we just "stuck" on place and wait to dying.
Every time a TR use it,
its basically my dead.
Post edited by GranD on
<::::::[]==0 GwF 0==[]::::::> ● Still waiting for the promised Improvement ● xgrandz02
Clonkyo I rest my case man. Think what you will. It seems you reverse engineer everything we say to emphasize only what you agree with, and discard what doesn't benefit you to be irrelevant. Zveris the reason this thread continues to be ignored is that while everyone is free to have an opinion, few people here are actually qualified to do so.
This stuff doesn't even affect me. Rain your fire and brimstone down on those little nuthead FotM TR.
Yesterday, I was in a 4vs5 match against 2 TRs who were only built around broken Shocking Execution, all they did was permastealthing around and filling up their AP to try to bring me down. One executioner (kinda bad equipped) and one Sabo (decent equipped + mythic DC sigil). The sabo didn't even try to attack me, unless he had SE up.
Since we were only 4 it was my job to try to handle them with my GWF. The executioner was really really bad, zero skill and did low damage to me. Well, since he had his daily up, SE + first strike = 60k dmg to me. No problem, with unstoppable + wheel I did outheal him. Some hits and he were dead.
Comes the Sabo which hitted for 90k SE, outhealed this one too with wheel + potion + unstoppable and lifesteal proccs while I was hitting his "Bait and switch dummy". DC sigil pops and some sec later again SE. The other TR comes back and SE's me as well. Well, that's the point where I couldn't outheal anything anymore. Dead.
SE over SE over SE over SE...and I couldn't do anything about it, while they were all the time in stealth or in ITC or run away and come some seconds later back.
That's what I call the "zero skill build". I hope one day SE get reworked together with ITC and then we will see who has skill and who was just a SE spam nub.
That is repeated every single match as a gwf over and over and over and over again ........
Tnx for not listening to like 10.000+ post devs ...........
I said this long time ago.
PS: Yep, it's hilarious to see how scruby TRs are trying hard to SE me over and over and over. I can eat sometimes 3-5 SEs lol. But when it comes to BIS potato one SE and gg.
Been saying it since mod2. This no-brainer combat pattern is essentially ancient and retro in origin, which was gone for a small while around mod5, until the devs have made the bad decision to not make SS proc OWTS. Since then, Sabo became extremely easy to manage and the brief days of the 'new style' Sabos were over. They went straight back to the old "sling CoS from invisibility until AP fills up to SE" krap.
The difference is, way back in mod2 there were no SigDiv. There were no stupid neck artifact equipment that gave out free AP. There was no stupid broken krap like an AP giving mount... and even back then when none of these balance breaking idiocy existed it was still OP.
Lazy, dumb, no-brainer. There is no 'skill' involved in this.
Stop making excuses. Be a man. If you know something to be broken, stop using it. Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
0
Options
icyphishMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,255Arc User
edited August 2015
Yes, back in mod 2~3 I can actually see which TR is skillful and which ones are not, but now.......
I want to understand, why the Devs giving TR that much of Advantage, that massive DMG, which simply can ignore EVERYTHING,
Always +100-80k per Single SE or higher, NO matter what Gear u use, everything get simply IGNORED, Any Kind of a defense get ignored, it's true.
if you probably think i'm wrong Than tell me DEVS what can i do, to defend myself?!
I already use a Full Elemental Gear/ Reinforced, Trancendes and R10 stuffs also a Defensive Build- BUT all this isn't enough to resist 1x SE Daily?? seriously?!
come on..
---
<::::::[]==0 GwF 0==[]::::::> ● Still waiting for the promised Improvement ●
In """""theory""""" Try to go in alone vs 2 foes, one of them being not a TR... That way, you will heal yourself Fast enought to make TR wasted S.E. .
clonky, we now live in a world where AP-focused builds can repeat dailies every 10~20 seconds, and two CWs can alternate Oppressive Force in 10 second intervals, a TR can perma-CB people, or a SM GWF/GF can have at least 30% uptime for Steel Defense.
I'm not sure the GWF can heal itself quickly for SE that's incoming every 15~20s...
Stop making excuses. Be a man. If you know something to be broken, stop using it. Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
Comments
Better to honestly retune SE first, then you'll see where the classes stand. Most GWF players are blindsighted by SE, failing to understand that the only thing hurting them, at all, is this piercing krap. I personally would give away all piercing damage just to have our encounter powers worth slotting.
You should know that tenacity DR and crit DR hurt us the most. Piercing is all this class has going, and yes, it's too wrong to try to justify still. Permastealth means nothing if you can hold a node against 4 people but can't contest it.
Simply put, this current fotm of TR is an all-or-nothing card.
What I have suggested before was to rework piercing to "instead pierce all shields, personal shields and damage immunities" and not mitigation and tenacity. This allows us to do better against DC/OP whom we are practically hopeless against, and not overpowered against the rest of you.
The entire GWF mechanics itself. TFey + TNeg is just a part of the overall symptom which amplifies the currently existing problems with the GWF, and we've gone over this many times so I probably don't need to repeat it. Just to clarify as a FYI for people who may have not been around those past discussions, to sum it up, the GWFs are the following:
...the end result being that once a GWF is prepared to over a certain level, allowing it to survive long enough to make use of those damage buffs, then from that point on its just a comedy show where the GWF runs around like swinging a 7 foor long hammer in hopes to connect one or two good shots which just instantly finishes the fight. Overpowered? You betcha.
TRs are in a much better spot since mod5 where the devs have finally taken in the plea from TR players and have 'redesigned' the class from the bottom up. This is true. So far, over the course of mod5, 6 and 7, the QOL for TRs have been great.
However -- believe me when I say this -- even in the current state, many of TR encounters are just krap, and has basically the same problems as the GWFs. With an exception of just a handful of powers the TRs use, all the rest of powers, we do not use it for a good reason.
Those powers are either;
(a) clunky or buggy
(b) old and outdated design that don't even work in PvE nowadays
(c) gimmicky "wow factor" and no real use, be it damage or utility
(d) or any combination of the above
Exactly the same with GWFs. Heck, frankly speaking most classes are like this.
rustlord probably had WK TRs in mind when he said that, because he, too, has joined the ranks of "TR players fed-up with stupid and bland cheesy Sabo CoS spamming fest", and decided to play a TR build that has none of the 'overpowered' elements people point out when they talk about TRs.
So in our shoes, being the 'non-majority' TRs that refuse to play Sabo+MI builds... we :
(a) don't have ITC, and thus very honestly vulnerable when we are visible
(b) don't have SE, so we don't condone stupid and cheesy one-shot powers
(c) don't have permastealth or perfect-rotation semipermas, hence we take risks in all of our attacks
(d) don't have stealth buffs, so like clockwork every 6~7 seconds or less, we are out of stealth
(e) don't have stuff like Shadowy Opportunity, and hence we risk using stronger melee powers
(f) the prior "problems" such as 'permadaze' or '1-shot SoD' is currently all nerfed and under control
(g) hence, all of above combined, we engage in fights with quite fair chances for our opponents to retaliate
The consensus amongst us 'non-majority TRs' is that our TR builds are totally fair and balanced concerning the current relative power balance between the classes, so if there's another "general blanket nerf that affects ALL TRs" then this means the Sabos will still find someway to weasle out of it and thus remain OP, while all the rest of us TRs who have actively opposed those 'majority TRs' and their cheesy, scumbag builds, will once again go way of the dodo.
So I think rustlord's reaction was more of a worrisome alert rather than anything specific in particular, which I would tend to agree
This has been addressed in the passage above
Any TR player who says current SE, or Sabo meta is fine, is a TRoll.
The level of general stupidity and laziness involved with the dumbshi*, "fling CoS and dodge around merrily in stealth, until AP full to spam SE" meta, does more harm to us TRs in that it produces masses and masses of incompetent players with no understanding of the class and simply follows a routine of mass-production that is devoid of any real brainwork.
Ironically, this also very closely resembles the very old mod2 pattern of TR gameplay, when SE hit like a meteor that brought upon the K-T Extinction event 65 million years ago, and was impossible to dodge. In those days GWFs were the demigods, and practically only classes that had any chance of bringing down GWFs in a 1v1 scenario, were us TRs that abused such powerful SE. The pattern's exactly the same. Fling around CoS and remain under combat long enough to fill up AP ASAP, and then spam an undodgeable SE upon the GWF to kill it.
The implications are quite clear. The current reality of the MI/Sabos, is that they went right back to the exact model of the "old TRs", which mod5 wanted to get rid of. They operate in the exact same way: Fighting from invisibility with extremely low chance of retaliation, gather up AP, and then spam SE.
They are retro, and counter-intuitive to the direction of PvP combat that we all should be headed in. And for that reason, they hurt the gameplay.
If you know something to be broken, stop using it.
Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
And what I meant by this is simply that, permastealth is next to pointless, even to the extent you are making your team lose by playing this way. You should know that the node contesting change has my vote, and I enjoy the new system. So this statement was meant to "prune permastealth from the useful fotm list".
What have we left? Let's look at the MI TRs. Remove ITC. Remove SE. Remove SO. Take this from someone who knows builds, what could I possibly do next without those powers hypothetically speaking? This is plain buildcrafting so listen;
1. Likeliest possibility to use perma courage breaker... which is actually a bit exaggerated. CB Lasts 14 seconds, and stack all the AP gain items, you can bring recharge speed down to as close as 30 seconds, leaving you half the time avoiding certain death. Good luck on that without ITC. But what good is a 90% slow debuff? Of course, lets land Duelist Flurry and hello Avalanche!
2. There's probably no viable #2. So what I meant by "all or nothing" was that MI is sh*t without SE, without ITC, without SO. Heck we might even rejoice because we're playing Whisperknife, we of all people know how weak our brothers are without their broken cr*p.
Speaking of WK, this is the balanced path that we play, that I still play, that I don't have the heart to give up yet. Do I play it just because I don't condone abusing broken krap? That's part of it. But I play it because IMO, it's the next best build to the fotm that is not overpowered. When you see me in PvP, you can complain about my permadodge, and I would tell you to blame Elven Battle, because it's the enchantment's fault.
Having established myself as a point of comparison, how do I fare against the GWFs who are "over a certain level" as kweassa clarified. This means BiS Trans Neg/Fey ones vs my Trans Elven/Vorpal TR. I make damn sure it takes a lot of work to fight me, but for me to even imagine clearing a GWF "over a certain level" I need to move heaven and earth to do so. I can't very well stack a good rotation of Duelist Flurry because of Avalanche.
This is what class balance looks like post-nerfing SE piercing and ITC.
So I add this one final caveat, and I will rest my case. Fix Shocking Execution only when you devs f****n fix AVALANCHE already. This will address a lot of QoL amongst most classes.
The number#1 reason why them GWFs and GFs can be so cocky -- Avalanche. Doesn't matter even if this TR manages some very clever and intelligent gameplay... gain the advantage, strike while they cannot strike you, and bam!, the other guy doesn't even swing his weapon once, but like 40% of your own HP gone...
Yeah, let's not go there. LOL!
If you know something to be broken, stop using it.
Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
As to the chance of GWF landing IBS on a skilled TR its even lower and we all know why...
On the other hand, a TR's chance of landing a hit on a GWF.... I guess its close to 100%?
I am not complaining about the mechanism as every class is different and is unique and should retain their own play style, however I do hope that SE's damage gets revised as per TR's tree or whats better, offer GWF/SW a mechanism that allows us to actually skillfully time to dodge the big hits or reduce the incoming damage, not a Sure Hit at such a high damage...
I do agree with the TRs above that SE is one of the very few attacks they have that deals MASSIVE DAMAGE, and I do agree that SE's damage should be reduced at the same time increase TR's other encounters' damage so they do not have to relay on one daily to deal all the damage.
The reason why GWF complains and as TR understands, its basically because SE hits on average 60~80K damage and is not dodgable/mitigable by GWF, and this skill can be casted up to approximately 3 times within 1 minute. (DevSig at the start 1SE then SnailNeck AP Gain for another about 30 seconds later, then DevSigil is ready for 3rd one).
Just imagine if your class has no ability to dodge/heal/block and 3 x 60k~80k hit you within 1 minute... I dont think you would be very happy with that...?
Author of GWF Speed Demon PvP Build (Mod 11) <- Click to reveal the Speedy Beast! >:)
Just correct the range, make it behave like IBS and it will disappear from most skilled fights
Not nearly enough.
I've not been a MI for more than 6 mods, but I can guarantee you that if I switch over to a MI, I can pretty much very simply land SE at even a melee-attack range against any GWF if I desire so. Currently, SE has (IIRC) 28' range, and this merely makes it easier to spam SE like an idiot and still expect hits. If the effective range is adjusted to be shorter, then all it takes for the idiots that spam SE, is to simply learn a few steps of prep/setup before using it and that's basically it.
Of course, it'll bring the damage down somewhat, since first strike will be spent during the preparation phase, but basically any timely CC inducing attack from stealth (in case of Sabos most probably SS) and and the GWF is skrewed.
IMO it takes two different individual fixes to bring down SE in line with other high-power daily attacks:
(1) change in the way it deals its damage, and how it interacts with defense mechanics
(2) a change with the GWF sprint itself
I'd actually support changes to GWF sprint so that it becomes a true 'dodge' power. Of course, it's not going to be just fine and dandy to GWFs if these changes occur. Being changed into a power that has immunity frames would probably mean the power would then also not be allowed to be used like sprint -- as in long-distance gap closing.
In my guess, it would probably resemble something like the "dash/hop" you see in some contemporary fighting games, like you hop/skip forward, which the hop/skip action would receive immunity frames. The amount of stamina spent would probably be similar to TR dodges, making for about maybe 3~4 dodges in a row. The distance would definitely be shorter than the TR's long rolling dodge.
I fully expect that if these line of changes occur, probably the GWF would be able to advance forward in quick 3~4 successions of that "dash/hop" move, but the overall distance travelled by spending the full stamina pool would probably be less than half of the distance the GWF can currently cover with a full-blown sprint. Of course stamina regeneration rate would probably be similar to TRs.
This means that the GWF will be then able to receive a full defensive dodge with immunity frames, but at the price, will suffer a lot in its ability to cover long distances very quickly... so prior to the change when a GWF can single out a CW or a HR standing in the back of the enemy formation and then close distance to engage in mere seconds, or conversely, the GWF can choose to run away to safety and extend the distance also in that short time, with the new "dash" available the GWFs would lose that mobility and will likely be more committed.
So I'm not sure if all GWFs will welcome these changes, but IMO it's the only way to make sure that the GWFs do not suffer from "hits they have no way of avoiding", because SE is not the only heavy hitting power that the GWFs cannot avoid.
If you know something to be broken, stop using it.
Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
ON the other hand, if you were to get a real dodge, you've got to follow the same mechanic that dodge consumes a fixed amount of stamina and covers a fixed amount of distance. You're going to lose your gap closer, your dash-behind-the-GF, your panic button, and I'll lose my Gran Turismo move on my Warlock. I don't know about you, but that's one change I'd have to think about first before I can commit if it will be for the better or worse.
We just can't have sprint+damage immunity the way basic dodges work. It's one or the other.
beside this it doesn't matter TR-Piercing dmg
Can ignore the complete DR or defense
deflection or sometimes tenacity.
TR can "Ignore any kind of Defense", thanks the max FREE crit!!
SE is doing over 100k- this is just too Crazy Overpowered!
I got currently around 104k HP+ 8DEF+ 4Deflect FULL Elemental PvP Gear,
one SINGLE SE Killed me!
Come on DEV's is this your intention!?
Here's an excellent example,
that my Sprint is a Biggest disadvantage ever and
"Not as a Dodge skill usable!
- Courage Breaker -
* the Duration of it is way too long, specially for me as GWF.
* with "Sprint there no way to move, till the time is over.
* All other Class with Dodge skills, they can still move. (or Blocking as GF)
* as GWF we just "stuck" on place and wait to dying.
Every time a TR use it,
its basically my dead.
This stuff doesn't even affect me. Rain your fire and brimstone down on those little nuthead FotM TR.
That is repeated every single match as a gwf over and over and over and over again ........
Tnx for not listening to like 10.000+ post devs ...........
Been saying it since mod2. This no-brainer combat pattern is essentially ancient and retro in origin, which was gone for a small while around mod5, until the devs have made the bad decision to not make SS proc OWTS. Since then, Sabo became extremely easy to manage and the brief days of the 'new style' Sabos were over. They went straight back to the old "sling CoS from invisibility until AP fills up to SE" krap.
The difference is, way back in mod2 there were no SigDiv. There were no stupid neck artifact equipment that gave out free AP. There was no stupid broken krap like an AP giving mount... and even back then when none of these balance breaking idiocy existed it was still OP.
Lazy, dumb, no-brainer. There is no 'skill' involved in this.
If you know something to be broken, stop using it.
Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
Author of GWF Speed Demon PvP Build (Mod 11) <- Click to reveal the Speedy Beast! >:)
why the Devs giving TR that much of Advantage,
that massive DMG, which simply can ignore EVERYTHING,
Always +100-80k per Single SE or higher, NO matter what Gear u use,
everything get simply IGNORED, Any Kind of a defense get ignored, it's true.
if you probably think i'm wrong
Than tell me DEVS what can i do,
to defend myself?!
I already use a Full Elemental Gear/ Reinforced, Trancendes and R10 stuffs also a Defensive Build-
BUT all this isn't enough to resist
1x SE Daily?? seriously?!
come on..
---
than the TR use Cloud and he was dead!.
1xDaily + 2 hit of an at will is enough to kill A well Geared Player?!
Devs your joking right..
See how broken SE and my Gwf's Sprint is, There's no chance to dodge!
so what can i do? When TR can Ignore all" any kind of defenses.
I'm not sure the GWF can heal itself quickly for SE that's incoming every 15~20s...
If you know something to be broken, stop using it.
Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'