There were some sets that I just didn't get because I couldn't justify paying that much for them, and other sets that I just felt were a complete steal for all they offered.
That's what I've been thinking this whole thread. I'll finally pick up some of these packs that I really only wanted a piece or two out of, or that only had like one or two outfits...or four hats (really, FOUR hats??) and I don't mind paying more for these sets I can work 1047 different ways (and was kind of surprised were at the "regular" price when they came out).
I can't help but say I am sure part of this pricing reason is to make gamble boxes look more attractive. I wouldn't be so cynical if say the 1000 tier gave us a chance to just buy gamble box costume sets as a either buy now or gamble option. I guess though that would not make sense moneywise. I understand that 1000 tier is only for bundles and specials. However humm I hope this is more a sign of PWE confidence in the game growing and not leech them all dry.
Now all that aside. If I well we are told ok all this money made is going directly into CO then I think most of us would say ok then. But, as it seemed in the past the money this game made went elsewhere pretty drastically. This game suffered pretty badly for the new baby. So some assurance that the Cstore money this game makes will go to funding this game would probably improve peoples attitudes towards such a change.
That is my consideration of these changes anyways.
And now we see why I dont play craptics game. No focus on content, no focus on fixing bugs or improving their games.(Except maybe STO but I hear thats a cash cow too) Seems All cryptic wants to do is gouge the last few people playing their game.
Cryptics policy is pretty much "how can we rip off our players more?"
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC] Join Date. Dec 2007
The Original Novastar
Oh wow what a great idea, really listened the community's feedback on this one. Everyone asked for stuff to become more expensive. We've been asking that for years! Glad its finally in.
To praise the forums for being 'calm' is disingenuous. When people care about something they kick a fuss. This sort of bland response here just plainly shows how people do not really care anymore. Most that are posting are veterans who bought all they cared about and the newbies are not over the forums.
In fact, the real **** storm was over the zone chat, and there yes, brown fecal matter splattered all over the place.
To be honest most of the problem with the packs is that I would like gloves from here, boots from there, a hat from another one. To spend my stipend for gloves kinda rankled (especially as I consider that paying a subscription should be enough, but that's something else altogether).
It is interesting that the Holo Armor set is brought up several times. The Holo Armor set is the reason why I returned to CO after around three years absence (if we disregard six or seven months using the game just for RP).
I was between games, I didn't know what to play next. A friend mentions they were trying CO again. I download it once more, check the tailor, find myself dazzled by the Holo Armor set. At this point I decide I can spend 10 euros for Zen or subscribe and get the stipend. I subscribe.
Do you wish me to say what would have been my reaction if I had seen it at 1000 zen?
Bottom line: it does not really matter. CO is an abandoned game played because of its setting and because it is FTP. It has nothing praiseworthy anymore though it could be kept on going with small updates here and there. But you don't *need* to drive nails into the coffin. Like someone said above, it does kind of smell of purposeful sabotage.
Or perhaps the fecal tornado hasn't struck here because people are being -gasp- reasonable? At least for the most part, leaving aside these last three posts? (Seriously, if you don't like CO, and you don't play CO, why in the name of sanity are you reading and posting in these forums? Go gank newbs in EvE or something, like a good little troll.)
"Science teaches us to expect -- demand -- more than just eerie mysteries. What use is a puzzle that can't be solved? Patience is fine, but I'm not going to stop asking the universe to make sense!"
Or perhaps the fecal tornado hasn't struck here because people are being -gasp- reasonable? At least for the most part, leaving aside these last three posts? (Seriously, if you don't like CO, and you don't play CO, why in the name of sanity are you reading and posting in these forums? Go gank newbs in EvE or something, like a good little troll.)
I'm kinda with Jon on this. Either way you fall on the subject this is not 'end is nigh' territory. Most of us who have been around for the duration, know that screaming and name calling are an excellent way for Devs to completely miss the boat on an intelligent dialogue. Its much better to concisely represent your views, and let the Devs deal with it in that manner.
For instance:
Patterned armor is just a retexture of allready ingame assets. Selling it at a higher price point seems like double billing to me. Hell, Kais retextured the bird, anubis, and tv heads for free, and they're not even a Dev.
Or perhaps the fecal tornado hasn't struck here because people are being -gasp- reasonable? At least for the most part, leaving aside these last three posts? (Seriously, if you don't like CO, and you don't play CO, why in the name of sanity are you reading and posting in these forums? Go gank newbs in EvE or something, like a good little troll.)
Way to trivialise a very real concern. The forum (and game) has a small enough community as it is. Just because someone has a different opinion doesn't give you the right, or an excuse, to act like a ****.
I hardly ever use/visit the forums myself because, let's face it, there's no need to. We've had no worthwhile content since Mechanon, and coupled with that, we never get any worthwhile bug fixes that make coming to the forum to check patch notes a clever thing to do.
Until now. Now we get this. All it begs from me is "Why?"
Why such a gulf between the low price and high price?
Why a near 100% increase on costume sets that have been priced that way since the game started?
Why do these require extra compensation for time spent now, after they've been made?
Why now, at all?
I can understand adjusting prices to help some of the "lesser" sets sell. There is no way in hell I'd ever spend a monthly stipend on emblems at their current price, but at the new one, I could see that.
I also can't ever see myself going "that's good value for money" if a new Holo Force comes out priced at 1000Z. Holo Force, while a great set, doesn't feel like it's worth that - I'm not sure any of the sets released do.
These things coupled with the already drastic gulf in quality between Z-Store sets and the current lockbox set trend (Scientist vs Space Scoundrel is the latest example. It's not even a contest) just confuses the situation more. If all the truly "best" costume sets are going to be locked behind a pay wall such as the lockboxes, why does the Z-Store price hike need to happen at all? It's obvious that cosmic keys are the top seller.
All in all, I don't know what to make of it. There's a whole lot of why, why, why hitting me about this change, and not very many good explanations to cover it. Lower prices? Good. That makes sense. If TrailTurtle, or anyone, can explain why, 7-8 months after it's release, the price of the Holo Force set needs to be doubled to help with the "iteration and work" needed for it, I'm all ears.
Also, a reasurrance that the price hike and subsequent money spent is going to go on more Z-Store sets and not lockbox sets would be nice too.
What "very real concern"? Since when is "I don't play craptic's game" a "very real concern"? Or more doomcrying about an "abandoned game" with this being "another nail in the coffin"?
Seriously, every change to this game since VB, and every other game that's come out, has been heralded as "the death of CO". It's still here, it's still kicking, while its spiritual predecessor has fallen. Games have come, games have gone, CO is still here, and this isn't going to "kill" the game. In fact, if they smarten up and plow the money back into the game, it's only going to improve things from here. If they don't, though, CO is still going to make enough money to stay afloat, and Cryptic's overlords at PWE are fairly infamous for not taking games off the market so long as there's pennies left to squeeze from them.
"Science teaches us to expect -- demand -- more than just eerie mysteries. What use is a puzzle that can't be solved? Patience is fine, but I'm not going to stop asking the universe to make sense!"
If I'm not mistaken, by around this time last year, the only new things we got were:
* Private Queues
* Justice Gear
* Fire & Ice Rampage Alert
* Vehicle updates (Mark 2)
* Auras out the wazoo
Whereas THIS year, look at all the great stuff we've gotten so far:
* A config change to the max amount of G for Silver players
* A config change to Tailor options for new players
* A recycled lockbox that recycles old lockboxes
* An arbitrary price increase on old costume sets
Jonsills doesn't see why there's any cause for concern, and that's good enough for me. Besides, Cryptic's model and the secret back-end data predict that players should be overjoyed about the trajectory the game is on, and happy days are again just around the corner.
LTS since 2009. Author of ACT parser module for CO. Founder of Rampagers. Resident curmudgeon.
"Without data, you're just another person with an opinion." -- W. Edwards Deming
I'm pulling out after this last post. It does not matter either way because the changes will come anyway.
Jonsils. An EVE little troll? Wut? I'm prevented from calling you a kid because I can only assume your avatar is of yourself, so you're far off from being one.
I've never touched EVE.
I don't troll (this new fangled idea that trolling is cool could go die in a fire).
I play CO. I've been subscribed for the last three months. Leveled three characters. Done my share of Rampages, alerts, small time PvP, heroics, made enough to buy a vehicule, geared myself with legion and heroics, but mostly I RP.
You're happy with a six year old abandoned game. Okay, I dig that. Hey, I'm here too! You are under the impression that miraculously there will be a net profit from increasing prices, and that this profit will be turned back into the game, somehow, perhaps by hiring an extra warm body.
At this point I'm not sure if that is optimism or faith (y'know, the thing religions depend on when there no facts to back all their claims).
You're correct though. Things have been pretty reasonable here (*not* in zone chat, where the majority of players were voicing their opinions) and I'm rocking the boat saying price increases for 'polish' that still has bugs (and will continue having them since there is no one left to do work outside of lockbox developing (but lets face it, it's a six year old game, so what is to be expected?)) makes no sense and is a bit of a kick to the face for the few people still playing the game (isn't it fun when we try to do a Rampage, which only requires ten players, and does not have a holy trinity attached to it, and we can wait for sometimes a literal hour before ten warm bodies show up (or even alerts. I can solo most alerts, but since I need five people to *enter* the alert I can languish for 15 minutes or more because, out of the whole of CO's population not five people have decided to queue in. In a megaserver system. In a game without a holy trinity which is always the chokepoints of queues)).
So on that note I'll go back how 90% of the players are doing and playing the game instead of paying attention to the forums.
Thank you for informing us of these upcoming changes in a timely manner. A lot of valuable feedback came from this discussion. In the spirit of being helpful, I have a few important questions that I hope will be useful to all please:
---
1. Will you provide more details on which costume sets will be in which tiers please?
I'm guessing not all of the responses were what you wanted to hear, but it may be a misunderstanding. You presented 5 tiers. 2 of them (emblems, old sets) showed a discount, while 3 of them (600, 750, 1000 ZEN) seemed more expensive.
As such, as it's presented, it's easy to get the impression most costume sets will be costlier.
I'm sure that's just a misunderstanding. I think you wanted to show the majority of the costume sets will fall in the discounted tiers, bringing more value to the players overall. To do that, we need more details, which sets fall in which tiers please.
---
2. Will you consider using Packaged Bundles instead of merely raising prices for certain sets?
As both a product manager and a player, hiking the price of an existing product, without changes or improvements, to 210% its current price (from 475 to 1000 ZEN), is contradictory to conventional business practices.
Instead, would you please consider doing Packaged Bundles of sets for 1000 ZEN?
An example: lead with 1 popular set (like Holoforce), then throw it maybe 2 less popular but old sets that relate with it (like some old tech sets). 3 sets, the player may save 100 to 200 ZEN, but it's a value-add to him, and to you.
You'll accelerate the purchase decision making process, i.e. I like the Holoforce, but was on the fence about other sets, but now I'll get all 3. You'll also successfully close big sales instead of leaving these small trickle deals evaporate.
I can even see the argument you want something at the equivalent of a US$10 price point for, say, a Steam purchase. I can see at that price level, it's worth going through the fulfillment process. I merely suggest making it worth that.
Alternatively, don't raise prices for existing items, just discount the less popular ones, shift down the supply-demand curve for the non-sellers. Putting more investment in new, much better pieces that cost 1000 Zen, makes more sense.
And we'll judge if they're worth 1000 Zen when they come out. Very fair.
---
3. If you continue with price increases on the items people actually want, when will you re-adjust Stipend levels as not to punish your loyal Gold Members? Please share the details, the amount, and the timeframe.
I understand the basis of this strategy is that not all costume sets are equal in value, so you're fixing that, well done.
If you plan on increasing the Stipend to match the new 210% cost for the pieces people actually want, I will continue my full support for you. I will argue for you against anyone that opposes your new 1050 Stipend.
Otherwise, this move really does seem to dilute at least part of the Gold Membership value. I believe the reoccurring revenue from loyal Subscribers should be the priority in your product mix, with costume sets as incremental.
Now, I understand this request may seem ridiculous to you. However, please then realise your proposal to double the price of existing products may seem ridiculous to us. If it seems reasonable, though, I'd love to hear about your Double Stipend plan.
---
You and radioscience have been updating the website, reaching out to Steam players, doing Quality of Life improvements, talking about the value of "every bit of customization, in power choice, power tinting, costume selection".
TrailTurtle, you've always been impressively timely with your responses. For these 3 questions, please do NOT rush. The answers aren't just for me, for other players, but they're for you too. You have time to reconsider.
It's not always about you, Lea. You weren't the one who proudly proclaimed that he doesn't play "craptic" games.
You were the one who proclaimed that this was "another nail in the coffin" of an "abandoned" game, but that's a whole different criticism than the one that set you off.
"Science teaches us to expect -- demand -- more than just eerie mysteries. What use is a puzzle that can't be solved? Patience is fine, but I'm not going to stop asking the universe to make sense!"
So after much deliberation and contemplation, hours of overfixated calculations resulting in frustration and many hours of mastur..Bay, Michael Bay movies. I have decided.....
The first part of this made perfect sense. In fact, if how Gold members have access to new rewards peices doesn't change, adding that bit wasn't necessary. However, you did add it, and that makes me worry that we're either going to lose access to new pieces or - worse - lose access to reward pieces all together. Please clarify.
Thanks for asking for clarification. The monthly rewards are planned to continue, we will be continuing to add a new costume piece every week. When I said that things related to it would change, I only meant that that we would be continuing to add pieces, so Gold members would have access to more pieces, adding value to a subscription. My apologies for the confusion, entirely my fault on that one.
Quasimojo1: It's also worth noting that there were several good quality of life changes so far this year, including the Tailor for new players and the zoom-out for the map. While these aren't large, they are positive developments.
Tiger:
1: Yep, we'll be posting the full list probably later today, I've got a reminder in Outlook for 4pm. The majority of items won't fall into the discounted tiers, but it's a roughly equal distribution across the tiers (with the exception of the 1000Z tier, which is small).
2. We might do bundling with some things, though not in that precise format. We've kicked around a bundle of all the Design-A-Costumes, or of the Halloween 2013 costumes. Depending on what goes into a bundle, it will likely end up at a price point other than 1000Z, though.
3. There are no plans to change subscription stipends. While this does reduce the effective purchasing power of subscriptions, I would point to other areas where we've steadily increased their value over the past year: monthly rewards, more value-giving lockbox designs (increasing the value of keys -> increasing the value of keys bought with stipends), and adding more C-Store items (that can be bought with stipends). We're committed to providing a strong value for the subscription, but it shouldn't be considered an Unlock-All for the C-Store.
Choose your enemies carefully, because they will define you / Make them interesting, because in some ways they will mind you
They're not there in the beginning, but when your story ends / Gonna last with you longer than your friends
While I appreciate the vote of support... man, you have no idea how calm you guys are. Seriously. I mean, of course I'd like it if everyone saw things my way, but if someone disagrees with me, they ask for clarification or they express themselves pretty politely. I can't exactly ask for much more than that. I do want to thank the people who've disagreed with this decision for how adult they've been in airing their feelings.
I'm mostly calm about this because I really don't care anymore, I even just looked at this thread when it first came out, made an annoyed sigh, and closed the page. After years of barely any new content at all besides cosmetics, so much so that it is almost comparable to a free MMO I played run by volunteers with no cash shop. Some really terrible decision making such as taking away Canada as another leveling path, restricting costume parts in a game that practically revolves around that concept, and even taking away costume parts on top of that. The quality of new sets increasingly getting more and more poor in quality and this is now even starting with the lockbox sets too. This is basically just a drop in an ocean at this point, and the painfully naive side of me almost read this as 'there will be higher quality costume sets in the future, even maybe some new content'. However, the nagging pessimism in me that only seems to appear when I play this game, says that the devs will rank sets like the Urban Anime and Scientist sets as high quality for a quick buck, but ultimately will gain less money and just limp even worse than before, or if there is an increase in money coming in that it won't even go back to CO. I'm going to have to see if this is going to improve the game, or if it just a money grab that only STO and NWO will see before I make a solid opinion, but right now I don't like it and facepalmed at even the thought of the holoforce armor set being sold for $10.
Normally if a game I loved kept being neglected as much as CO I'd throw up my hands and ask the devs why they are actively trying to mutilate the game, which by the way is actually a really good game regardless of what Jack Emmert says, but the developers don't appear on the forums and instead put you here to act as a flame shield. And most people here would feel guilty about throwing the blame at you.
Personally I feel both the Harajuku Girl Set and the Urban Anime Set should be no higher than 675.
While the Harajuku set has a lot of pieces it is ONLY usable by female characters. I would be happy with the pricing if some of the parts could be made unisex, even if it was simply the weapon skins, half moon glasses and gothic bow neckwear (perfect for gentlemen cowboys!) and the emotes.
The Urban Anime Set however still feels distinctly unpolished compared to others at the 2nd price tier and features several clipping and material issues still.
Bear in mind I already own all the cstore costumes so my thoughts on pricing are more in regards to value for money for those who do not yet own them.
And I find it odd that the Roin'Esh set made it so high on the list - yeah, sure, the set technically includes a fair number of useful pieces... but in practical terms? It's only got about three or four pieces that you can't pick up in-game for dirt cheap on the AH.
Questionable 600 ones:
Hi Tech and Beast Heads can all be unlocked via perks.
Steampunk can mostly be obtained from Snake Gulch and Clarence.
Melee Weapon Pack, Ranged Weapon Pack, Jetpacks and the Halloween Mask sets are pretty small.
Star Tights are pretty simple.
Out of curiosity; with this change could we possibly see more viability on some of the old costume pieces? I.E Certain hipwear becoming available under robot legs, some neck/back pieces becoming available under chest wear, ect. ?
Out of curiosity; with this change could we possibly see more viability on some of the old costume pieces? I.E Certain hipwear becoming available under robot legs, some neck/back pieces becoming available under chest wear, ect. ?
While those changes are possible, they would be independent of this change -- just as we occasionally change/upgrade costume sets now, we will probably continue to do that occasionally. Those changes aren't part of this initiative, though.
The Jetpack Costume Set - I think 600Z is pretty high for a pack of 4 costume pieces. While they're pretty, they're not very useful unless you make that kind of character.
The Harajuku Costume Set - Because this is gender restricted, a lot of people won't even buy this set because they don't play female characters. I think it should be moved down to the 600Z tier and let's face it, you're still making more money off it than you were before.
The Urban Anime Costume Set - This set has a couple decent pieces but overall is very buggy. Material issues and Clipping issues have already been brought up. If these are going to be corrected, alright. But if you have no intention of doing that, then 750Z seems...kind of like a ripoff.
The Scientist Costume set - This set needs so much work, honestly. It is so unpolished and got pushed out before it was ready. I can't even imagine paying 600Z for something when it has such a limited amount of useful pieces. Between the category restrictions, the clipping issues and the overall bugginess of it, 600Z doesn't seem like a fair price at all. Again, if these things were to be corrected, then alright. But if not, the price should be brought down.
I will buy the sets if I feel they are worth it. While in the past I would buy any set when it came out as my way to support cryptic, I will be less inclined to get them at the current prices, right away. I may just wait for my stipend now.
I would be more excited to just keep throwing money right away at costumes if I thought it would actually mean anything to the game. But we know absolutely nothing about this games future.
I think until we get some sort of State of Game or a new Until field report, I am just done spending money.
Don't want to be doom and gloom, but it is hard not to be sometimes.
The costumes since CN took over have been great, heads above the past costumes, but even that has lost it's shine.
I am back to wanting real none alert content. Most games ex span, this game has regressed to only needed MC.
Why can't we get new areas to explore? I am not even talk full super zones liek MC but say a neighborhood you pay 1000 zen. You could then have a new entrance via the jet or going down a certain street, a lot like COH. That would help make things feel larger.
You could do the same with the other zones. Then start adding in bigger areas for like 2000zen and build off them too.
okay sorry got off track there. Anyway, as long as the costume sets deserve the price then cool.
I don't know how they can honestly expect people to pay 10 bucks for a cosmetic item in a dying MMO, that rarely ever sees more than a half glance from it's developers.
I don't know how they can honestly expect people to pay 10 bucks for a cosmetic item in a dying MMO, that rarely ever sees more than a half glance from it's developers.
They want me to add 10 characters on top of this, but really this sums it up perfectly.
I'm willing to pay 1000 Zen for the lockbox only costume sets (each, and they would be auto-consumed so you can't put them onto the AH). Can you make that happen?
I like how older tights sets are deemed less universal desirable than some "weird" sets not exactly linked to the game genre.
Maybe you can look at the lower price of those as an attempt to make sure that tights are more readily available to everyone, where the higher entry point of weirder stuff reflects how alien and rare it should be the genre. It isn't the case of course but you can try to think of it that way, and technically raising the prices of stranger looks *might* actually serve to lower their frequency as a side-effect.
Looking over the price list, I could have seen the non-emblem tiers as established if they were around 25% cheaper then they are (so top-end at 750 rather then 1000, low end 280 rather then 375). As much as I love the game I do not feel it is sophisticated or evolving fast enough to command an overall price increase of this scale.
While I appreciate the vote of support... man, you have no idea how calm you guys are. Seriously. I mean, of course I'd like it if everyone saw things my way, but if someone disagrees with me, they ask for clarification or they express themselves pretty politely. I can't exactly ask for much more than that. I do want to thank the people who've disagreed with this decision for how adult they've been in airing their feelings.
I want a patch for the time we removed one-day rentals from Blacklight: Retribution. >.>
Do you know why we're this way TT? Do you truly understand how an MMO community could be this calm? Cryptic/PW have broken us... Ripped out our very soul, our passion, our love for something we so desperately wanted to see get treated how we felt it should have for so very long. Everyone has given up, nobody truly cares anymore. If the game had anything at all to be excited about, than you would still get your uproars when jabbing us with shameful price gauges like this. Instead we're all just here reading this shaking our heads and then checking on how all those other projects are coming along. Biding our time until we can happily move on.
So go ahead, try and get as much as you can out of everyone while you still can. It's what you guys are good at.
Do you know why we're this way TT? Do you truly understand how an MMO community could be this calm? Cryptic/PW have broken us... Ripped out our very soul, our passion, our love for something we so desperately wanted to see get treated how we felt it should have for so very long. Everyone has given up, nobody truly cares anymore. If the game had anything at all to be excited about, than you would still get your uproars when jabbing us with shameful price gauges like this. Instead we're all just here reading this shaking our heads and then checking on how all those other projects are coming along. Biding our time until we can happily move on.
So go ahead, try and get as much as you can out of everyone while you still can. It's what you guys are good at.
*Long Sigh*
Really? Calm deliberation, and suggestions of ways to ameliorate the impact, rather than simply flying off the handle and calling TT everything but a human being, is a sign of being "broken"? And here I figured it was a sign of being an intelligent, reasonable adult.
I suppose then that if this descended into a cesspit of namecalling and recrimination, that would indicate "passion" for the game. In which case YouTube must have an extremely passionate, devoted group of followers, because almost every comment section in there slides very quickly into the Abyss.
"Science teaches us to expect -- demand -- more than just eerie mysteries. What use is a puzzle that can't be solved? Patience is fine, but I'm not going to stop asking the universe to make sense!"
I honestly hate to sound rude about this, TT; but why do I get the feeling that people are going to leave after this costume pricing takes effect? Because I honestly doubt the magical girl set is really worth 600 Zen.
Also, why do you let GM Navi ban people for swearing when the game has a profanity filter? Honestly seems like a stupid reason to use the banhammer.
I honestly hate to sound rude about this, TT; but why do I get the feeling that people are going to leave after this costume pricing takes effect? Because I honestly doubt the magical girl set is really worth 600 Zen.
You're going to leave because something you don't need to buy is too expensive? I usually just don't buy it. When I played WoW, I didn't buy the $25 sparkle pony; while I do play STO, I didn't buy the $125 Delta Rising ship-and-race-and-trait pack. And if I think any of the costume sets here are more than they're worth, I just won't buy them. But I'm not going to quit over it.
Also, why do you let GM Navi ban people for swearing when the game has a profanity filter? Honestly seems like a stupid reason to use the banhammer.
Because the filter is there to catch the nimrods who can't be bothered to read the ToS when they sign it (which you have to do before you can finish even creating an account). It doesn't relieve the players of the responsibility for obeying the rules, any more than the balcony placed just below the top floor of a county office building near here means it's okay to jump off the roof.
"Science teaches us to expect -- demand -- more than just eerie mysteries. What use is a puzzle that can't be solved? Patience is fine, but I'm not going to stop asking the universe to make sense!"
Really? Calm deliberation, and suggestions of ways to ameliorate the impact, rather than simply flying off the handle and calling TT everything but a human being, is a sign of being "broken"? And here I figured it was a sign of being an intelligent, reasonable adult.
I suppose then that if this descended into a cesspit of namecalling and recrimination, that would indicate "passion" for the game. In which case YouTube must have an extremely passionate, devoted group of followers, because almost every comment section in there slides very quickly into the Abyss.
Let us now recount the number of times calm deliberation has made any sort of impact in this game with reversing any number of previous poor decisions.
You're going to leave because something you don't need to buy is too expensive? I usually just don't buy it. When I played WoW, I didn't buy the $25 sparkle pony; while I do play STO, I didn't buy the $125 Delta Rising ship-and-race-and-trait pack. And if I think any of the costume sets here are more than they're worth, I just won't buy them. But I'm not going to quit over it.
That's not the point. The point is why would anyone in their right mind purchase a set as atrocious as that for a higher price? Or costume sets which contain only a few pieces to begin with? And I never said I'd leave, for the record.
Because the filter is there to catch the nimrods who can't be bothered to read the ToS when they sign it (which you have to do before you can finish even creating an account). It doesn't relieve the players of the responsibility for obeying the rules, any more than the balcony placed just below the top floor of a county office building near here means it's okay to jump off the roof.
Then why have the option to turn off the profanity filter in the first place? Those who turn it off are most likely old enough to understand the responsibility or have had bad experiences with filters like CO's in the first place.
Though I would like to add that charging TT with any of this nonsense is ridiculous, and I hope it hasn't been going on. The man is just the messenger, the go between for us seething masses, and a brick wall.
Let us now recount the number of times calm deliberation has made any sort of impact in this game with reversing any number of previous poor decisions.
Really? In the past month, Cryptic has put a resource cap unlock in C-Store, and reversed the limited tailor for new accounts. And we managed to lobby for those without throwing any childish tantrums.
Choose your enemies carefully, because they will define you / Make them interesting, because in some ways they will mind you
They're not there in the beginning, but when your story ends / Gonna last with you longer than your friends
Comments
That's what I've been thinking this whole thread. I'll finally pick up some of these packs that I really only wanted a piece or two out of, or that only had like one or two outfits...or four hats (really, FOUR hats??) and I don't mind paying more for these sets I can work 1047 different ways (and was kind of surprised were at the "regular" price when they came out).
Sets many of us already have will cost more oh no!!!
Now all that aside. If I well we are told ok all this money made is going directly into CO then I think most of us would say ok then. But, as it seemed in the past the money this game made went elsewhere pretty drastically. This game suffered pretty badly for the new baby. So some assurance that the Cstore money this game makes will go to funding this game would probably improve peoples attitudes towards such a change.
That is my consideration of these changes anyways.
when if/when that happens however...you're all welcome to say I told you so...
Perhaps it's time to worry about why we no longer care enough to make a real ****-storm out of this?
When can we expect a new power framework? How about a large scale update? Need I bring up the word foundry around here?
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Oh.
*is disappointed*
.
.
.
Whoever you are, be that person one hundred percent. Don't compromise on your identity.
Cryptics policy is pretty much "how can we rip off our players more?"
The Original Novastar
Love you guys. Keep it up.
In fact, the real **** storm was over the zone chat, and there yes, brown fecal matter splattered all over the place.
To be honest most of the problem with the packs is that I would like gloves from here, boots from there, a hat from another one. To spend my stipend for gloves kinda rankled (especially as I consider that paying a subscription should be enough, but that's something else altogether).
It is interesting that the Holo Armor set is brought up several times. The Holo Armor set is the reason why I returned to CO after around three years absence (if we disregard six or seven months using the game just for RP).
I was between games, I didn't know what to play next. A friend mentions they were trying CO again. I download it once more, check the tailor, find myself dazzled by the Holo Armor set. At this point I decide I can spend 10 euros for Zen or subscribe and get the stipend. I subscribe.
Do you wish me to say what would have been my reaction if I had seen it at 1000 zen?
Bottom line: it does not really matter. CO is an abandoned game played because of its setting and because it is FTP. It has nothing praiseworthy anymore though it could be kept on going with small updates here and there. But you don't *need* to drive nails into the coffin. Like someone said above, it does kind of smell of purposeful sabotage.
- David Brin, "Those Eyes"
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I'm kinda with Jon on this. Either way you fall on the subject this is not 'end is nigh' territory. Most of us who have been around for the duration, know that screaming and name calling are an excellent way for Devs to completely miss the boat on an intelligent dialogue. Its much better to concisely represent your views, and let the Devs deal with it in that manner.
For instance:
Patterned armor is just a retexture of allready ingame assets. Selling it at a higher price point seems like double billing to me. Hell, Kais retextured the bird, anubis, and tv heads for free, and they're not even a Dev.
Way to trivialise a very real concern. The forum (and game) has a small enough community as it is. Just because someone has a different opinion doesn't give you the right, or an excuse, to act like a ****.
I hardly ever use/visit the forums myself because, let's face it, there's no need to. We've had no worthwhile content since Mechanon, and coupled with that, we never get any worthwhile bug fixes that make coming to the forum to check patch notes a clever thing to do.
Until now. Now we get this. All it begs from me is "Why?"
Why such a gulf between the low price and high price?
Why a near 100% increase on costume sets that have been priced that way since the game started?
Why do these require extra compensation for time spent now, after they've been made?
Why now, at all?
I can understand adjusting prices to help some of the "lesser" sets sell. There is no way in hell I'd ever spend a monthly stipend on emblems at their current price, but at the new one, I could see that.
I also can't ever see myself going "that's good value for money" if a new Holo Force comes out priced at 1000Z. Holo Force, while a great set, doesn't feel like it's worth that - I'm not sure any of the sets released do.
These things coupled with the already drastic gulf in quality between Z-Store sets and the current lockbox set trend (Scientist vs Space Scoundrel is the latest example. It's not even a contest) just confuses the situation more. If all the truly "best" costume sets are going to be locked behind a pay wall such as the lockboxes, why does the Z-Store price hike need to happen at all? It's obvious that cosmic keys are the top seller.
All in all, I don't know what to make of it. There's a whole lot of why, why, why hitting me about this change, and not very many good explanations to cover it. Lower prices? Good. That makes sense. If TrailTurtle, or anyone, can explain why, 7-8 months after it's release, the price of the Holo Force set needs to be doubled to help with the "iteration and work" needed for it, I'm all ears.
Also, a reasurrance that the price hike and subsequent money spent is going to go on more Z-Store sets and not lockbox sets would be nice too.
Seriously, every change to this game since VB, and every other game that's come out, has been heralded as "the death of CO". It's still here, it's still kicking, while its spiritual predecessor has fallen. Games have come, games have gone, CO is still here, and this isn't going to "kill" the game. In fact, if they smarten up and plow the money back into the game, it's only going to improve things from here. If they don't, though, CO is still going to make enough money to stay afloat, and Cryptic's overlords at PWE are fairly infamous for not taking games off the market so long as there's pennies left to squeeze from them.
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* Private Queues
* Justice Gear
* Fire & Ice Rampage Alert
* Vehicle updates (Mark 2)
* Auras out the wazoo
Whereas THIS year, look at all the great stuff we've gotten so far:
* A config change to the max amount of G for Silver players
* A config change to Tailor options for new players
* A recycled lockbox that recycles old lockboxes
* An arbitrary price increase on old costume sets
Jonsills doesn't see why there's any cause for concern, and that's good enough for me. Besides, Cryptic's model and the secret back-end data predict that players should be overjoyed about the trajectory the game is on, and happy days are again just around the corner.
"Without data, you're just another person with an opinion." -- W. Edwards Deming
Jonsils. An EVE little troll? Wut? I'm prevented from calling you a kid because I can only assume your avatar is of yourself, so you're far off from being one.
I've never touched EVE.
I don't troll (this new fangled idea that trolling is cool could go die in a fire).
I play CO. I've been subscribed for the last three months. Leveled three characters. Done my share of Rampages, alerts, small time PvP, heroics, made enough to buy a vehicule, geared myself with legion and heroics, but mostly I RP.
You're happy with a six year old abandoned game. Okay, I dig that. Hey, I'm here too! You are under the impression that miraculously there will be a net profit from increasing prices, and that this profit will be turned back into the game, somehow, perhaps by hiring an extra warm body.
At this point I'm not sure if that is optimism or faith (y'know, the thing religions depend on when there no facts to back all their claims).
You're correct though. Things have been pretty reasonable here (*not* in zone chat, where the majority of players were voicing their opinions) and I'm rocking the boat saying price increases for 'polish' that still has bugs (and will continue having them since there is no one left to do work outside of lockbox developing (but lets face it, it's a six year old game, so what is to be expected?)) makes no sense and is a bit of a kick to the face for the few people still playing the game (isn't it fun when we try to do a Rampage, which only requires ten players, and does not have a holy trinity attached to it, and we can wait for sometimes a literal hour before ten warm bodies show up (or even alerts. I can solo most alerts, but since I need five people to *enter* the alert I can languish for 15 minutes or more because, out of the whole of CO's population not five people have decided to queue in. In a megaserver system. In a game without a holy trinity which is always the chokepoints of queues)).
So on that note I'll go back how 90% of the players are doing and playing the game instead of paying attention to the forums.
Thank you for informing us of these upcoming changes in a timely manner. A lot of valuable feedback came from this discussion. In the spirit of being helpful, I have a few important questions that I hope will be useful to all please:
---
1. Will you provide more details on which costume sets will be in which tiers please?
I'm guessing not all of the responses were what you wanted to hear, but it may be a misunderstanding. You presented 5 tiers. 2 of them (emblems, old sets) showed a discount, while 3 of them (600, 750, 1000 ZEN) seemed more expensive.
As such, as it's presented, it's easy to get the impression most costume sets will be costlier.
I'm sure that's just a misunderstanding. I think you wanted to show the majority of the costume sets will fall in the discounted tiers, bringing more value to the players overall. To do that, we need more details, which sets fall in which tiers please.
---
2. Will you consider using Packaged Bundles instead of merely raising prices for certain sets?
As both a product manager and a player, hiking the price of an existing product, without changes or improvements, to 210% its current price (from 475 to 1000 ZEN), is contradictory to conventional business practices.
Instead, would you please consider doing Packaged Bundles of sets for 1000 ZEN?
An example: lead with 1 popular set (like Holoforce), then throw it maybe 2 less popular but old sets that relate with it (like some old tech sets). 3 sets, the player may save 100 to 200 ZEN, but it's a value-add to him, and to you.
You'll accelerate the purchase decision making process, i.e. I like the Holoforce, but was on the fence about other sets, but now I'll get all 3. You'll also successfully close big sales instead of leaving these small trickle deals evaporate.
I can even see the argument you want something at the equivalent of a US$10 price point for, say, a Steam purchase. I can see at that price level, it's worth going through the fulfillment process. I merely suggest making it worth that.
Alternatively, don't raise prices for existing items, just discount the less popular ones, shift down the supply-demand curve for the non-sellers. Putting more investment in new, much better pieces that cost 1000 Zen, makes more sense.
And we'll judge if they're worth 1000 Zen when they come out. Very fair.
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3. If you continue with price increases on the items people actually want, when will you re-adjust Stipend levels as not to punish your loyal Gold Members? Please share the details, the amount, and the timeframe.
I understand the basis of this strategy is that not all costume sets are equal in value, so you're fixing that, well done.
If you plan on increasing the Stipend to match the new 210% cost for the pieces people actually want, I will continue my full support for you. I will argue for you against anyone that opposes your new 1050 Stipend.
Otherwise, this move really does seem to dilute at least part of the Gold Membership value. I believe the reoccurring revenue from loyal Subscribers should be the priority in your product mix, with costume sets as incremental.
Now, I understand this request may seem ridiculous to you. However, please then realise your proposal to double the price of existing products may seem ridiculous to us. If it seems reasonable, though, I'd love to hear about your Double Stipend plan.
---
You and radioscience have been updating the website, reaching out to Steam players, doing Quality of Life improvements, talking about the value of "every bit of customization, in power choice, power tinting, costume selection".
TrailTurtle, you've always been impressively timely with your responses. For these 3 questions, please do NOT rush. The answers aren't just for me, for other players, but they're for you too. You have time to reconsider.
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You were the one who proclaimed that this was "another nail in the coffin" of an "abandoned" game, but that's a whole different criticism than the one that set you off.
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Let the masses rejoice.
Thanks for asking for clarification. The monthly rewards are planned to continue, we will be continuing to add a new costume piece every week. When I said that things related to it would change, I only meant that that we would be continuing to add pieces, so Gold members would have access to more pieces, adding value to a subscription. My apologies for the confusion, entirely my fault on that one.
Quasimojo1: It's also worth noting that there were several good quality of life changes so far this year, including the Tailor for new players and the zoom-out for the map. While these aren't large, they are positive developments.
Tiger:
1: Yep, we'll be posting the full list probably later today, I've got a reminder in Outlook for 4pm. The majority of items won't fall into the discounted tiers, but it's a roughly equal distribution across the tiers (with the exception of the 1000Z tier, which is small).
2. We might do bundling with some things, though not in that precise format. We've kicked around a bundle of all the Design-A-Costumes, or of the Halloween 2013 costumes. Depending on what goes into a bundle, it will likely end up at a price point other than 1000Z, though.
3. There are no plans to change subscription stipends. While this does reduce the effective purchasing power of subscriptions, I would point to other areas where we've steadily increased their value over the past year: monthly rewards, more value-giving lockbox designs (increasing the value of keys -> increasing the value of keys bought with stipends), and adding more C-Store items (that can be bought with stipends). We're committed to providing a strong value for the subscription, but it shouldn't be considered an Unlock-All for the C-Store.
You are 100% correct! I should get more sleep.
No time for sleep. It's time to put that money to good use!
They're not there in the beginning, but when your story ends / Gonna last with you longer than your friends
I'm mostly calm about this because I really don't care anymore, I even just looked at this thread when it first came out, made an annoyed sigh, and closed the page. After years of barely any new content at all besides cosmetics, so much so that it is almost comparable to a free MMO I played run by volunteers with no cash shop. Some really terrible decision making such as taking away Canada as another leveling path, restricting costume parts in a game that practically revolves around that concept, and even taking away costume parts on top of that. The quality of new sets increasingly getting more and more poor in quality and this is now even starting with the lockbox sets too. This is basically just a drop in an ocean at this point, and the painfully naive side of me almost read this as 'there will be higher quality costume sets in the future, even maybe some new content'. However, the nagging pessimism in me that only seems to appear when I play this game, says that the devs will rank sets like the Urban Anime and Scientist sets as high quality for a quick buck, but ultimately will gain less money and just limp even worse than before, or if there is an increase in money coming in that it won't even go back to CO. I'm going to have to see if this is going to improve the game, or if it just a money grab that only STO and NWO will see before I make a solid opinion, but right now I don't like it and facepalmed at even the thought of the holoforce armor set being sold for $10.
Normally if a game I loved kept being neglected as much as CO I'd throw up my hands and ask the devs why they are actively trying to mutilate the game, which by the way is actually a really good game regardless of what Jack Emmert says, but the developers don't appear on the forums and instead put you here to act as a flame shield. And most people here would feel guilty about throwing the blame at you.
[SIGPIC]http://imgur.com/9gptU4e[/SIGPIC]
according to TT post above expect something in a couple of hours.
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While the Harajuku set has a lot of pieces it is ONLY usable by female characters. I would be happy with the pricing if some of the parts could be made unisex, even if it was simply the weapon skins, half moon glasses and gothic bow neckwear (perfect for gentlemen cowboys!) and the emotes.
The Urban Anime Set however still feels distinctly unpolished compared to others at the 2nd price tier and features several clipping and material issues still.
Bear in mind I already own all the cstore costumes so my thoughts on pricing are more in regards to value for money for those who do not yet own them.
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My screw-up, fixed it to 600 ZEN.
Hi Tech and Beast Heads can all be unlocked via perks.
Steampunk can mostly be obtained from Snake Gulch and Clarence.
Melee Weapon Pack, Ranged Weapon Pack, Jetpacks and the Halloween Mask sets are pretty small.
Star Tights are pretty simple.
@Chimerafreek
While those changes are possible, they would be independent of this change -- just as we occasionally change/upgrade costume sets now, we will probably continue to do that occasionally. Those changes aren't part of this initiative, though.
The Jetpack Costume Set - I think 600Z is pretty high for a pack of 4 costume pieces. While they're pretty, they're not very useful unless you make that kind of character.
The Harajuku Costume Set - Because this is gender restricted, a lot of people won't even buy this set because they don't play female characters. I think it should be moved down to the 600Z tier and let's face it, you're still making more money off it than you were before.
The Urban Anime Costume Set - This set has a couple decent pieces but overall is very buggy. Material issues and Clipping issues have already been brought up. If these are going to be corrected, alright. But if you have no intention of doing that, then 750Z seems...kind of like a ripoff.
The Scientist Costume set - This set needs so much work, honestly. It is so unpolished and got pushed out before it was ready. I can't even imagine paying 600Z for something when it has such a limited amount of useful pieces. Between the category restrictions, the clipping issues and the overall bugginess of it, 600Z doesn't seem like a fair price at all. Again, if these things were to be corrected, then alright. But if not, the price should be brought down.
I would be more excited to just keep throwing money right away at costumes if I thought it would actually mean anything to the game. But we know absolutely nothing about this games future.
I think until we get some sort of State of Game or a new Until field report, I am just done spending money.
Don't want to be doom and gloom, but it is hard not to be sometimes.
The costumes since CN took over have been great, heads above the past costumes, but even that has lost it's shine.
I am back to wanting real none alert content. Most games ex span, this game has regressed to only needed MC.
Why can't we get new areas to explore? I am not even talk full super zones liek MC but say a neighborhood you pay 1000 zen. You could then have a new entrance via the jet or going down a certain street, a lot like COH. That would help make things feel larger.
You could do the same with the other zones. Then start adding in bigger areas for like 2000zen and build off them too.
okay sorry got off track there. Anyway, as long as the costume sets deserve the price then cool.
But I suppose as a superhero game CO is beyond redemption anyway.
Lol. :biggrin:
I'm willing to pay 1000 Zen for the lockbox only costume sets (each, and they would be auto-consumed so you can't put them onto the AH). Can you make that happen?
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Maybe you can look at the lower price of those as an attempt to make sure that tights are more readily available to everyone, where the higher entry point of weirder stuff reflects how alien and rare it should be the genre. It isn't the case of course but you can try to think of it that way, and technically raising the prices of stranger looks *might* actually serve to lower their frequency as a side-effect.
Looking over the price list, I could have seen the non-emblem tiers as established if they were around 25% cheaper then they are (so top-end at 750 rather then 1000, low end 280 rather then 375). As much as I love the game I do not feel it is sophisticated or evolving fast enough to command an overall price increase of this scale.
And I will always be @DZPlayer122.
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Do you know why we're this way TT? Do you truly understand how an MMO community could be this calm? Cryptic/PW have broken us... Ripped out our very soul, our passion, our love for something we so desperately wanted to see get treated how we felt it should have for so very long. Everyone has given up, nobody truly cares anymore. If the game had anything at all to be excited about, than you would still get your uproars when jabbing us with shameful price gauges like this. Instead we're all just here reading this shaking our heads and then checking on how all those other projects are coming along. Biding our time until we can happily move on.
So go ahead, try and get as much as you can out of everyone while you still can. It's what you guys are good at.
*Long Sigh*
I suppose then that if this descended into a cesspit of namecalling and recrimination, that would indicate "passion" for the game. In which case YouTube must have an extremely passionate, devoted group of followers, because almost every comment section in there slides very quickly into the Abyss.
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Also, why do you let GM Navi ban people for swearing when the game has a profanity filter? Honestly seems like a stupid reason to use the banhammer.
Because the filter is there to catch the nimrods who can't be bothered to read the ToS when they sign it (which you have to do before you can finish even creating an account). It doesn't relieve the players of the responsibility for obeying the rules, any more than the balcony placed just below the top floor of a county office building near here means it's okay to jump off the roof.
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Let us now recount the number of times calm deliberation has made any sort of impact in this game with reversing any number of previous poor decisions.
Then why have the option to turn off the profanity filter in the first place? Those who turn it off are most likely old enough to understand the responsibility or have had bad experiences with filters like CO's in the first place.
Really? In the past month, Cryptic has put a resource cap unlock in C-Store, and reversed the limited tailor for new accounts. And we managed to lobby for those without throwing any childish tantrums.
They're not there in the beginning, but when your story ends / Gonna last with you longer than your friends