Think everyone needs to step back for a moment. Its getting a bit close to heated argument in here.
Personally I feel that using Infected as a "benchmark" is questionable. You got four other variables (the rest of the team) that can tip your DPS up or down depending on what BOff abilities are used.
I admit I always panic when I see a Vaadwaur Juggernaut in an Infected run because most of the time they're so powerful they vaporize things just by LOOKING at them. And I got a decent build myself.
The whole issue is kind of a double edged sword.
Do some people get enjoyment out of min-maxing and getting the absolute best out of their builds? Yes
Does it adversely affect some other players? Yes.
Is their fun wrong? No.
Players can reach rather amazing levels of destruction. The problem really is that they don't have anywhere to really put it to the test. On top of that, I wouldn't be surprised if some of them were less interested in testing their DPS as they were gunning for quick rewards. And unfortunately Infected is pretty straight forward and can be nuked. In fact I'm pretty sure the original three Borg TFOs are all easy to nuke with a top end DPS build.
Again I would like to say that their fun is not wrong. However I wish those people were a bit more mindful of other players and their capabilities as accidentally AFKing members of the team can adversely affect those players.
Having a ship set up with massive DPS can be a trophy for a player. A mark of pride or something. But there is a fine line before it crosses into epeen ego territory. Its not just the build that can be a problem. Its the attitude of the Player using it that can be just as much of a problem. But that is a whole 'nother can of worms.
Isn't starbase 234 exactly designed for single player DPS testing?
From a game designer stand point (i used to work in the game industry a long time ago), the quick solution to keep the DPS folks happy, and the casual players happy would be to do the following...at least in my eyes.
1: The Omega Reputation or "The Borg One". It's one of if not the first reputation that people work through. From Tier 1 until completion of Tier 5 the character is locked to "Normal" TFO's for Borg. Upon completion of Tier 5 you are locked OUT of Normal and can only do Advanced. Upon completion of Tier 6 you can unlock Elite.
so you complete tier 6 of the rep and get locked out of normal.. and you are only doing 10-20K DPS. The game is toxic enough with the uberDPSers screaming GIT GUD because you are not one-shotting spheres in normal TFOs; Imagine the fith that will spew if you are forced into advanced. and yes I have had that happen on more than a few times. one reason I won't play random TFOs I know the data is out there to the devs.. I would LOVE to see a chart of the percentage of players doing damage ranges.. I think most in this thread don't realize at least HALF the players are probably doing sub 50K
We Want Vic Fontaine
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rattler2Member, Star Trek Online ModeratorPosts: 58,548Community Moderator
Isn't starbase 234 exactly designed for single player DPS testing?
While the Devs have, last I heard, been testing some sort of in game DPS testing location, there is no official one on Holodeck as of yet. And I do believe they were considering Starbase 234 as the location for it.
So really the only real single player DPS test is just how quickly you can mow down mobs in patrols, or seeing how many waves you blow through in certain patrols like Rescue and Search.
The Red Alerts are a classic example of the power creep open for all to see. I remember a time when the Borg Red Alert was at least partially difficult. Today i seen something the size of a shuttle take out the lower left hand group of a borg cube and three spheres. The entire Red Alert lasted just over 1 minute.
The Tholian one used to drag on for ages, not anymore though, that lasted about 2 to 3 mins. I was lucky to get a shot off in the borg one.
"You know when that shark bites, with its teeth dear... scarlet billows start to spread..."
To the OP: If a RFO ends way to fast, as long as you didn't get hit with an idler penalty and can still join another random TFO, i'd be greatful its over fast. Sure it wasn't as fun but you at least won't be doing that TFO again for a while. Honestly, I hate the borg TFO's, I get them far to often when I play random in fact, borg TFO's coming up 90% of the time(not even an exageration) is one of the contributers towards my absenses from this game, that and non-stop-events.
Yeah, i know what you're saying.
The 30's TFO itself was not the issue, nor was it being yet another in a long line of them going back years.
It was simply the fact that it is happening more often and spilling out into other parts of the game where normal average players are being effected by it.
You guys don't hear about it here as much because most of the playing population don't ever visit these forums. There are quite a few large playing groups around that don't bother to mention their issues here because they don't believe it will make a difference. And i'm talking about whole fleets worth of people here.
*off-topic: I love the pic on your signature; I can't help but giggle every time I see it.
On-topic:
...and to echo what someone else on this thread has already stated: some of us don't have the money to just buy our way into the "gud" status.
I don't know what was said here, but to add to the reply.
I have been lucky enough to be able to drop a stupid amount of money and time into this game because i feel it's worth it, to me.
I have however decided to limit my own impact on the other players around me out of sheer decency. I've felt the impact of people who abuse the game mechanics without thinking, and i've had conversations with too many people who have as well.
I'm starting to think that the people who dislike power creep discussions the most are scared of losing the power creep, and/or the ability to abuse it.
This game used to have a maximum DPS ceiling and power creep was never an issue. That ceiling was governed by the available equipment and players builds, which at the time were admittedly limited.
MKXV gear , t6 ships and the masses of t6 ship traits in combination with the masses of reputation traits and all the possible synergies that can achieved have pushed the criticals and even the raw damage stats way past the level of what the content was intended to handle.
some of us don't have the money to just buy our way into the "gud" status.
I used to think the same way. However my current understanding is that while there are some advantages "for sale" (i.e. traits) that can help, the larger gains can't necessarily be purchased but rather come with attention to detail and a whole lot of practice.
Ok, i got in contact with an old acquaintance who used to play STO, following the DPS league crowd to the upper limits, and explained the story behind my current dilemma concerning the "Power Creep/Instakill" dilemma. His initial reply was, "Don't bother, i don't think they care".
However, he did say that if the devs do happen to be interested, Elite versions of content other than TFO's. TFO's alone becomes monotonous at best, hence why they don't get used much.
Adding Elite difficulty versions of most, if not all open ended group content like Battlezones and Patrols ...etc, the Tzenkethi zone is not cutting it these days, targets are being evaporated quickly in there now under the current DPS meta. The Dyson, Undine and Terran zones are not even a consideration for high end challenges.
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rattler2Member, Star Trek Online ModeratorPosts: 58,548Community Moderator
Adding Elite difficulty versions of most, if not all open ended group content like Battlezones and Patrols ...etc, the Tzenkethi zone is not cutting it these days, targets are being evaporated quickly in there now under the current DPS meta. The Dyson, Undine and Terran zones are not even a consideration for high end challenges.
Considering the open nature of the Battlezones... there are no Advanced or Elite versions as you don't queue up for them. You just go in and boom, you're in.
A normie goes "Oh, what's this?"
An otaku goes "UwU, what's this?"
A furry goes "OwO, what's this?"
A werewolf goes "Awoo, what's this?"
"It's nothing personal, I just don't feel like I've gotten to know a person until I've sniffed their crotch." "We said 'no' to Mr. Curiosity. We're not home. Curiosity is not welcome, it is not to be invited in. Curiosity...is bad. It gets you in trouble, it gets you killed, and more importantly...it makes you poor!"
Passion and Serenity are one.
I gain power by understanding both.
In the chaos of their battle, I bring order.
I am a shadow, darkness born from light.
The Force is united within me.
Adding Elite difficulty versions of most, if not all open ended group content like Battlezones and Patrols ...etc, the Tzenkethi zone is not cutting it these days, targets are being evaporated quickly in there now under the current DPS meta. The Dyson, Undine and Terran zones are not even a consideration for high end challenges.
Considering the open nature of the Battlezones... there are no Advanced or Elite versions as you don't queue up for them. You just go in and boom, you're in.
Could they then perhaps, once you click to go in, ask if you want normal, advanced or elite before shuttling you in?
Now a LTS and loving it.
Just because you spend money on this game, it does not entitle you to be a jerk if things don't go your way.
I have come to the conclusion that I have a memory like Etch-A-Sketch. I shake my head and forget everything.
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rattler2Member, Star Trek Online ModeratorPosts: 58,548Community Moderator
I suppose it is possible. At least in theory. I don't know how things are coded or set up so I can't say for sure one way or the other.
Having a higher difficulty Battlezone or two might sound appealing to anyone who is too overpowered for the existing ones.
Either way, the idea is there if needed.
For newish toons the Tzenketti BZ can be considered a higher difficulty,at least until you learn their tricks.
This program, though reasonably normal at times, seems to have a strong affinity to classes belonging to the Cat 2.0 program. Questerius 2.7 will break down on occasion, resulting in garbage and nonsense messages whenever it occurs. Usually a hard reboot or pulling the plug solves the problem when that happens.
Defera was set up a bit different perhaps due to it's age. The "difficulty" levels, easy/medium/hard, don't have their own instances but the "hards" require a team of 3-5 and spawn more/different enemies.
No idea what it would take to have higher difficulty options in other battle zones but with dev time being at a premium don't think I'd like having to forgo new missions, ships, outfits, etc. just to satisfy what is probably a small handful of players who believe "instakills" are an issue. It might be cheaper and easier to do something like not forcing players to play on normal difficulty during events.
Patrols already come in all three difficulty levels.
Defera was set up a bit different perhaps due to it's age. The "difficulty" levels, easy/medium/hard, don't have their own instances but the "hards" require a team of 3-5 and spawn more/different enemies.
No idea what it would take to have higher difficulty options in other battle zones but with dev time being at a premium don't think I'd like having to forgo new missions, ships, outfits, etc. just to satisfy what is probably a small handful of players who believe "instakills" are an issue. It might be cheaper and easier to do something like not forcing players to play on normal difficulty during events.
Patrols already come in all three difficulty levels.
There are only a few people on this forum that think instakills is an issue, but this is not the only active STO community. In fact the population on this forum is only a small percentage of the active population as a whole. There are whole fleets of people who never visit this forum, let alone leave comments here. The only reason i'm here is because i hear about and experience this issue often, and felt it needed to be addressed on the official forums. Most folks i speak to don't think its worth the effort to report the issue here because of the amount of resistance they are likely encounter.
I understand the frustration of being forced into lower level events, that's just the way they were presented to us.
The problem itself is that some players can achieve ridiculous amounts of DPS output, but with nowhere to use it effectively without stepping on the toes of the regular players who can't compete at that level. There is nothing wrong with that much power, provided you have somewhere sensible to use it. Throwing it around in low level group content is not very considerate or thoughtful.
Some will inevitably wave it around like a toddler with a gun. But most will at least attempt to consider their fellow players.
There are only a few people on this forum that think instakills is an issue, but this is not the only active STO community.
I get the feeling (anecdotally) that the majority of regular forum posters fall into the higher end of DPS users. I also feel (again anecdotally) a lot of these people are unaware of this.
I guess the question is, and it's one for the devs really, 'what is Elite?' or 'what is Advanced?' Are we saying that to be elite, you have to be doing 500k DPS? Or are we saying that Elite is 100k DPS? I think this is the crux of the problem, and it's why there are some people saying that there's no problem, and some people saying that there is.
I don't use a parser, never do Elite content, and have never had an AFK penalty (other than that time I got stuck inside an asteroid) - I don't consider any of my builds to be 'optimum', but I've been playing for years, and know how to do most of the TFOs now. It'd be interesting to see where I fall on the scale.
I get the feeling (anecdotally) that the majority of regular forum posters fall into the higher end of DPS users.
No, not necessarily.
I guess the question is, and it's one for the devs really, 'what is Elite?' or 'what is Advanced?'
They are just two words. Play whatever level of difficulty you feel comfortable with.
Are we saying that to be elite, you have to be doing 500k DPS? Or are we saying that Elite is 100k DPS?
To play elite TFO's 100K is fine. To be elite, just purchase an elite captain training token.
One thing to try is to queue up a patrol that has waves of enemies such as the Ninth Rule. At what difficulty level do you find the final enemy groups a reasonable challenge?
I think this is the crux of the problem, and it's why there are some people saying that there's no problem, and some people saying that there is.
The OP seems to be on a bit of a crusade (some have had other words for this) and is playing the crowd.
I don't use a parser, never do Elite content, and have never had an AFK penalty (other than that time I got stuck inside an asteroid) - I don't consider any of my builds to be 'optimum', but I've been playing for years, and know how to do most of the TFOs now. It'd be interesting to see where I fall on the scale.
There seems to be a fair number of players in the 15-30K range.
The problem itself is that some players can achieve ridiculous amounts of DPS output, but with nowhere to use it effectively without stepping on the toes of the regular players who can't compete at that level. There is nothing wrong with that much power, provided you have somewhere sensible to use it.Throwing it around in low level group content is not very considerate or thoughtful.
Some will inevitably wave it around like a toddler with a gun. But most will at least attempt to consider their fellow players.
I wasn't sure if I was going to respond in here or not but after reading some of the latest stuff I feel I have to. This quotation as a whole, and especially the lines I've highlighted in bold or italics are the exact problem with this line of logic and thinking.
First up, who gets to define what is "somewhere sensible" and what isn't? This is the problem I have when threads like this pop up, given enough time they almost always show themselves as anti-dps crusaders trying to rid the game of DPSer oppression on those who "can't compete at that level" as though doing a ton of DPS somehow is wrong. You are not the arbiter of what is "sensible" and what isn't. If I wanted to bust out a 500k+ build and carry a friend who just started playing the game through some randoms, who are you or anyone else to tell me I shouldn't be allowed to do that?
This brings me to the two bits outlined in bold as it further demonstrates my issue with this anti-dps crusading some people do. People love to hide behind the whole "consider their fellow players" junk when talking about this stuff, while at the same time demanding that their fellow players be restricted because THEY have decided THEY don't like that other player doing something they don't like or can't do themselves.
On one hand you say "there is nothing wrong with having that much DPS" but on the other hand say "people are doing too much already and there needs to be a limit." Clearly you do believe there is a problem with having that much DPS or you wouldn't be advocating restrictions, so why beat around the bush? Why not just say it straight out of the gate that you think there is too much damage and it needs to be restricted?
It's the same song and dance every time I see people complaining about this stuff and it never changes. Someone comes on complaining about DPS being too high and needs to be restricted. Then when people post any kind of counter argument, the gaslighting comes out of "you just don't care about your fellow players."
It's disingenuous, hypocritical, downright dishonest, and jerkish when people pull that kind of a stunt. I have no issues with people voicing their opinions, thoughts, concerns or what have you, even if that opinion is that DPS is too high in game. What I DO have a problem with is when people try to say DPS is too high, then try to beat people over the head saying "you just don't care about your fellow players" when folks pose counter arguments. I would respect people who hold these opinions more if they would just straight up say from the start they want DPS limited because they don't like it vs trying to hide behind the "you just don't care about your fellow players" junk.
Again I am not responsible for the fun of other people, they alone are responsible for their own fun. I've worked years to perfect my craft in this game and I'm not crippling myself just to appease someone else. I hope I don't ever AFK someone when I go into a run but if it happens it happens. Only thing I can try to do is offer help to that person so it doesn't happen again. People with high DPS have just as much right to be in random TFOs or events like Red Alerts as the lower DPS people. So long as you meet the minimum requirements set forth by the game itself, you have a right to be in there. If a TFO requires a minimum of 15k from everyone on the team to clear it, and you're at the 15k minimum you have just as much right to be there as the guy doing 500k+.
"Someone once told me that time was a predator that stalked us all our lives. I rather believe that time is a companion who goes with us on the journey and reminds us to cherish every moment, because it will never come again." - Jean Luc Picard in Star Trek Generations
I understand what you're saying here. And also that this is a tired old subject that people want to just go away, and i get it.
Each player is responsible for their own actions, and how they choose to effect the people around them.
It is indeed the same old song and dance, and yes it never changes. But i firmly believe that these issues will never go away if it is never addressed properly. The repetition from my point of view is the sheer amount of opposition to resolving a genuine issue that is being generated by people who don't feel that this is an issue, or understand what is being said about this issue.
My statement that you quoted seems pretty clear to me. I don't know how i can make it any clearer for you. I'm also a little disappointed that i'm receiving such an unnecessarily personal attack from a community moderator. I was under the impression that moderators are here to moderate such behavior.
The inability to understand the complexities of this issue is in part why it is never going to be resolved by us, the regular forum users. These decisions are for the developers to make. Regular forum users can only serve to bring these issues to the attention of the developers using the provided official means, like the official forum.
Ok, this thread is getting long winded, repetitious and messy.
There are some good ideas and points being made, some comments have been taken out of context and some comments and replies seem to indicate that the original post was either misunderstood or ignored completely.
As expected, some disagreements and differing opinions have created some sparks, some hairs were split, but only a moderate amount of pouncing, and almost no spurting jugulars.
Nice work people.
I would suggest that asking the Pro DPS chasers what they might consider to be suitable content. It won't solve the problem of individuals acting selfishly in a multiplayer environment, that kind of behavior will unfortunately persist as long as the ability to do so exists.
As i have stated, forums are not my cup of tea, and i've said what i came here to say. I have nothing more to add to the conversation that has'nt been said already, and i find that i'm repeating myself much more than i'd prefer. If folks wish to continue this discussion, have at it. If it dries up and vanishes into the necro thread graveyard, so be it. At least it will have plenty of company.
I don't expect to see anything change anytime soon, but hopefully the developers have been made aware that the game environment is currently host to a growing problem with potentially long term complications. It's now up to the developers to decide whether this issue is serious enough to effect their view of the bigger picture. I assumed that the offical forum was the best place to discuss this kind of in-game issue, if not.... nevermind.
I'll be sure to appear suddenly and complain bitterly the next time some other trivial atrocity leaves me sobbing into my pillow.
Thanks for reading.
"If you cannot see the issue, don't understand the issue or don't think it is an issue, you are 'possibly' part of the problem."
"If you are offended by that statement, you are 'probably' part of the problem."
"If by now, you are raging and spitting blood about either of those statements, you are 'definitely' part of the problem."
Actually, I wasn't planning on commenting on this thread at all, but since the sometimes quite offensive style of some of the comments from both high and low dps'rs (and while the rules say no moderation discussion is allowed with mods, don't really know if that applies here) and also certain mods don't act too modest (by which I mean - not neutral) I'll post a short one anyway. High or low dps sooner or later one comes into contact with it, someone with a low dps coming into contact with someone with a high is in my humble opinion many someone who hasn't spent as much time in the game as the others, money has little to do with this as there are plenty of opportunities to get the same consoles and other materials if one is around long enough, when I started the game years ago I felt the same way and now own a few ships myself who have a high dps. Then I'm not talking about 600k but +800k and even one that goes over 1.5m when I'm having a bad day as I read all the comments here I got tired of reading the same thing on the ingame chat and decided on a day to ditch those ships and build mediocre ones that would do around 600k dps (which apparently still counts as high dps, how low do i have to go to be mediocre?) and people still seem to be complaining while i have a ship that even makes it that even has some uncommen mkXII beams. What am I supposed to do, fly around with standard weapons? No way. Although I'm against being overpowered I'm thinking about replaying those high dps ships after reading all that comment here, after all I've put all that time and effort into building them and have only used them on new solo missions . The negative reactions against someone who takes the trouble to build such a solid ship, now that the potential is certainly there with the reputation of parts one can get that one didn't have before, makes it easy for me to show what can be built without possibly throwing thousands of euros/dollars at it. I know it's not easy as a beginner speller and veterans will assure it used to be even harder, but many now want to achieve far too quickly what others have taken years to achieve.
I understand what you're saying here. And also that this is a tired old subject that people want to just go away, and i get it.
Each player is responsible for their own actions, and how they choose to effect the people around them.
It is indeed the same old song and dance, and yes it never changes. But i firmly believe that these issues will never go away if it is never addressed properly. The repetition from my point of view is the sheer amount of opposition to resolving a genuine issue that is being generated by people who don't feel that this is an issue, or understand what is being said about this issue.
My statement that you quoted seems pretty clear to me. I don't know how i can make it any clearer for you. I'm also a little disappointed that i'm receiving such an unnecessarily personal attack from a community moderator. I was under the impression that moderators are here to moderate such behavior.
The inability to understand the complexities of this issue is in part why it is never going to be resolved by us, the regular forum users. These decisions are for the developers to make. Regular forum users can only serve to bring these issues to the attention of the developers using the provided official means, like the official forum.
A couple of points that need to be made before getting into the actual response.
-First, having green text next to my name or next to the names of my cohorts doesn't protect people from hearing thoughts and opinions from us people may not like. We have just as much right to voice our thoughts, opinions and concerns as everyone else.
-Second, disagreement with someone and criticizing their position and logic does NOT constitute a personal attack. I have not called you any name other than your forum name here, nor have I gone out of my way to insult you personally. In my post above, two things were directed at you specifically when I said "you are not the arbiter of what is sensible and what isn't", and again when I asked why you said "there is nothing wrong with that much DPS" when clearly you don't believe it. The rest is my own thoughts and opinions on the situation as a whole and the lines of logic used which you are free to agree/disagree with.
-Now with obligatory said, on to the actual response. I will be breaking the post apart to address individual sections.
Each player is responsible for their own actions, and how they choose to effect the people around them.
You acknowledge that players are responsible for their actions, which I'm glad to see. At the same time you still insist that somehow people are responsible for the fun of other players. Again neither myself nor anyone else are responsible for your fun in game. If you are not having fun in game, that's a you problem. When I press that random button I have no idea what the other people are going to be like when I get in there. I might get a group of people that think and play exactly like I do, and I might not. There is no way for me to account for every possible scenario that could happen. I would need to be Dr Strange with the Time Stone or a higher level being like a Q that could see into the future to do that. Even then why should I or anyone else have to hamstring our builds because we MIGHT get people who don't like it? Why should that be my responsibility?
The inability to understand the complexities of this issue is in part why it is never going to be resolved by us, the regular forum users. These decisions are for the developers to make. Regular forum users can only serve to bring these issues to the attention of the developers using the provided official means, like the official forum.
So first thing on this that you need to understand, simply because someone disagrees with you does NOT mean they can't "understand the complexities of the issue" or what have you. It simply means they disagree with you.
To give a bit of background on myself, I have been creating mods for various older games like Star Trek Armada II, Timesplitters Future Perfect along with a host of other older games, and now including Space Engineers as a more modern game, for 20 years now. I have created maps, levels, items, and so on for these games with several of my maps for Timesplitters being EA recommended downloads for weeks at the time. The most recent creation of mine was my Space Engineers 2125 era mod that expands on what the tech of the vanilla game would look like a further 50 years into the future of its timeline and is essentially a complete rebalance of every block in the game. How many components is needed to build them, how much of each resource to make each component, where to get each resource including having added some new ones to the worlds, along with balancing the weapons in said mod, power generation and the like. It took me as a one person project around 8 weeks to get that mod to where I wanted, and that's with recycling some already existing bits. I've since put alot more into that mod. Point being that while I'm not a AAA studio dev, I know what it takes to balance something as I've done it.
Just as you are free to give feedback on things you see as potential issues and voice your thoughts and opinions on them, other people are free to chime in after the fact and say "don't listen to this guy". You don't have to like it when people disagree with you about a particular subject. At the same time you disliking it doesn't negate their right to voice said disagreement.
My statement that you quoted seems pretty clear to me. I don't know how i can make it any clearer for you. I'm also a little disappointed that i'm receiving such an unnecessarily personal attack from a community moderator. I was under the impression that moderators are here to moderate such behavior.
You speak in vague generalities that you never define and give specifics on, yet you say you don't know how to make it anymore clear. So allow me to assist with this.
The problem itself is that some players can achieve ridiculous amounts of DPS output, but with nowhere to use it effectively without stepping on the toes of the regular players who can't compete at that level. There is nothing wrong with that much power, provided you have somewhere sensible to use it. Throwing it around in low level group content is not very considerate or thoughtful.
Some will inevitably wave it around like a toddler with a gun. But most will at least attempt to consider their fellow players.
In part of your previous post you said the above quotation. Specifically in the line in bold you said "there is nothing wrong with that much power, provided you have somewhere sensible to use it."
So to that point in bold, define for us what you consider to be "somewhere sensible". What is the standard for this?
If I want to play with a friend of mine who just started the game and level match my friend to run some missions with him, why should I not be allowed to bring my best build? If said friend is a fresh 65 and I want to carry him through some random TFOs to get him some marks or what have you, why should I not be allowed to bring a 500k+ build to do that if I want to? So long as I'm no deliberately AFKing people or my friend, what is the issue? The TFOs and events are for everyone, yet you are essentially wanting to exclude certain people from certain events and TFOs based on your arbitrary standard you have yet to define.
It is indeed the same old song and dance, and yes it never changes. But i firmly believe that these issues will never go away if it is never addressed properly. The repetition from my point of view is the sheer amount of opposition to resolving a genuine issue that is being generated by people who don't feel that this is an issue, or understand what is being said about this issue.
And what is the standard for being addressed properly? Again I'm asking you to define this. Clearly you have a standard in mind as to what you consider it being addressed properly or you wouldn't say this. If you want to know why you are getting "opposition to resolving a genuine issue" I will explain.
First, people disagreeing does not mean they misunderstand something. It means they disagree with you as I said before.
The reason you're getting pushback, and rightfully so, is you're coming on here complaining and saying that you don't like that it's possible to get super high DPS and don't like getting grouped with "insta-vape" builds as you called them. Yet instead of simply advocating for additional content for us so called insta-vapers to do (yes please to content), or choosing to group with like minded players so this isn't an issue you could encounter, you instead demand that myself and others be limited and our fun be limited because YOU don't like it.
You say "Each player is responsible for their own actions, and how they choose to effect the people around them.", acknowledging your own personal responsibility, yet are demanding something be done to other people because YOU personally don't like what those other people are doing. You are demanding the game cater to YOUR standard of fun and the fun of others be restricted.
What you're doing is the equivalent of a vegan telling their neighbor they shouldn't be allowed to eat a steak because it offends them. Then when that neighbor tells the vegan to mind their own business as they're just feeding their family, that vegan resorts to the classic "you just hate animals and want them to suffer" card to gaslight the neighbor and try to manipulate them.
In this instance you are coming onto these forums and saying you don't like that some of your fellow players have achieved a certain level of DPS and as a result you want their ability to achieve said DPS removed from them. Just like our hypothetical vegan was trying to take food from their neighbor, you are basically advocating the progress of other players be stolen from them. Then when people push back on it you bust out the "you're not considering other players" card. Yet you really expect me to believe you don't understand why you're getting pushback on this.
I'm sorry but that's disingenuous to the core.
Simply put dude, there is an issue here, but it's not with insta-vape builds, high DPSers or even the low DPSers. The issue is people demanding the progress and ability of others be restricted because they don't like it. THAT is the issue.
"Someone once told me that time was a predator that stalked us all our lives. I rather believe that time is a companion who goes with us on the journey and reminds us to cherish every moment, because it will never come again." - Jean Luc Picard in Star Trek Generations
Can we please refrain from being insulting when disagreeing with one another? Thank you.
Star Trek Online Volunteer Community Moderator and Resident She-Wolf
Community Moderators are Unpaid Volunteers and NOT Employees of Gearbox/Cryptic
Views and Opinions May Not Reflect the Views and Opinions of Gearbox/Cryptic
Always interesting to see how some in the DPS community totally miss the mark, use words like disingenuous and hypocritical without applying the same to themselves, and providing lengthy diatribes to try justify their view and bully others into accepting their play style. The level of narcissism never ceases to amaze.
What you're doing is the equivalent of a vegan telling their neighbor they shouldn't be allowed to eat a steak because it offends them. Then when that neighbor tells the vegan to mind their own business as they're just feeding their family, that vegan resorts to the classic "you just hate animals and want them to suffer" card to gaslight the neighbor and try to manipulate them.
Here is a more appropriate analogy -
Five people are invited to a party and one person eats the entire buffet before anyone else has the opportunity to take a single bite. Their reasoning is "I am hungrier and can eat more than you, so it is your fault you did not get any food."
Under most social situations, who in that story would be considered rude? I believe what some people here are asking is for that one person to remember to be considerate of others and to share the food.
I will repeat, I personally do not see DPS limits as the answer. I will also say that I find it very difficult to believe that Cryptic finds absolutely no issue whatsoever with players entering normal and advanced level TFOs and vaporizing the entire map in under 30 seconds, especially if that behavior is causing other players to suffer an AFK penalty. Players fundamentally want to feel like they have achieved something, and high DPS players wiping an entire map before someone else can even get a single shot off is antithetical to that, not to mention the risk versus reward and timesink structures.
@ryjokel - perhaps you might pose this as a question in the next Developer Q&A thread or better yet, on one of the weekly livestreams.
(Emphasis added.)
Good point, and I feel this is too easily ignored.
When designing the content, the developers behind this game made maps with a certain total amount of hitpoints. Say, 100 million total HP. I highly doubt then that it was intended that a single player can 100 million damage in 30 seconds or so. If that was the intention, the total number of HP on the map would likely have been higher.
Saying that other people should simply get good and also deal more damage doesn't make much sense as a solution then.
Now, someone earlier in the thread mentioned that the discussion is kind of pointless without some input from Cryptic itself. I agree with that statement. They should take some responsibility and at the very least inform the playerbase whether it's working as intended that players can reach such high levels of DPS. That's also in those players' interest, because then they can finally know whether new damage balances will be a thing, e.g. whether there's a point to keep improving - or if they're just accelerating the arrival of nerfs.
(Of course, it's unlikely they'll commit to anything or make any sort of official statement because of legal reasons - if that is indeed the case, they certainly deserve to be called out for that.)
Deliberate or not, if your build and skill level is causing other players to receive a penalty, you are a big part of the problem.
When somebody receives a penalty normally associated with being absent, one possible option might be to consider exploring different ways of doing things in order to not receive such a penalty.
Five people are invited to a party and one person eats the entire buffet before anyone else has the opportunity to take a single bite.
Five people are invited to a party with a small number of snacks on the table for a limited time. Some of them elect to finish their drinks prior to eating.
players entering normal and advanced level TFOs and vaporizing the entire map in under 30 seconds
Players entering event maps are usually presented with multiple waves of enemies for a set duration. Nothing any player does on these maps makes much of a difference as the snacks on the table keep refilling themselves.
Players entering advanced difficulty TFO's have a variety of options available in order for them to avoid being labelled as absent, even though this label is very rarely applied. Sipping one's drink prior to eating might not be an option at this level.
Comments
Isn't starbase 234 exactly designed for single player DPS testing?
so you complete tier 6 of the rep and get locked out of normal.. and you are only doing 10-20K DPS. The game is toxic enough with the uberDPSers screaming GIT GUD because you are not one-shotting spheres in normal TFOs; Imagine the fith that will spew if you are forced into advanced. and yes I have had that happen on more than a few times. one reason I won't play random TFOs I know the data is out there to the devs.. I would LOVE to see a chart of the percentage of players doing damage ranges.. I think most in this thread don't realize at least HALF the players are probably doing sub 50K
While the Devs have, last I heard, been testing some sort of in game DPS testing location, there is no official one on Holodeck as of yet. And I do believe they were considering Starbase 234 as the location for it.
So really the only real single player DPS test is just how quickly you can mow down mobs in patrols, or seeing how many waves you blow through in certain patrols like Rescue and Search.
The Tholian one used to drag on for ages, not anymore though, that lasted about 2 to 3 mins. I was lucky to get a shot off in the borg one.
Yeah, i know what you're saying.
The 30's TFO itself was not the issue, nor was it being yet another in a long line of them going back years.
It was simply the fact that it is happening more often and spilling out into other parts of the game where normal average players are being effected by it.
You guys don't hear about it here as much because most of the playing population don't ever visit these forums. There are quite a few large playing groups around that don't bother to mention their issues here because they don't believe it will make a difference. And i'm talking about whole fleets worth of people here.
I don't know what was said here, but to add to the reply.
I have been lucky enough to be able to drop a stupid amount of money and time into this game because i feel it's worth it, to me.
I have however decided to limit my own impact on the other players around me out of sheer decency. I've felt the impact of people who abuse the game mechanics without thinking, and i've had conversations with too many people who have as well.
I'm starting to think that the people who dislike power creep discussions the most are scared of losing the power creep, and/or the ability to abuse it.
This game used to have a maximum DPS ceiling and power creep was never an issue. That ceiling was governed by the available equipment and players builds, which at the time were admittedly limited.
MKXV gear , t6 ships and the masses of t6 ship traits in combination with the masses of reputation traits and all the possible synergies that can achieved have pushed the criticals and even the raw damage stats way past the level of what the content was intended to handle.
I used to think the same way. However my current understanding is that while there are some advantages "for sale" (i.e. traits) that can help, the larger gains can't necessarily be purchased but rather come with attention to detail and a whole lot of practice.
However, he did say that if the devs do happen to be interested, Elite versions of content other than TFO's. TFO's alone becomes monotonous at best, hence why they don't get used much.
Adding Elite difficulty versions of most, if not all open ended group content like Battlezones and Patrols ...etc, the Tzenkethi zone is not cutting it these days, targets are being evaporated quickly in there now under the current DPS meta. The Dyson, Undine and Terran zones are not even a consideration for high end challenges.
Considering the open nature of the Battlezones... there are no Advanced or Elite versions as you don't queue up for them. You just go in and boom, you're in.
Having a higher difficulty Battlezone or two might sound appealing to anyone who is too overpowered for the existing ones.
Either way, the idea is there if needed.
It's all normal now since Defera hasn't been touched once since it was released, of course, but it can be done.
#LegalizeAwoo
A normie goes "Oh, what's this?"
An otaku goes "UwU, what's this?"
A furry goes "OwO, what's this?"
A werewolf goes "Awoo, what's this?"
"It's nothing personal, I just don't feel like I've gotten to know a person until I've sniffed their crotch."
"We said 'no' to Mr. Curiosity. We're not home. Curiosity is not welcome, it is not to be invited in. Curiosity...is bad. It gets you in trouble, it gets you killed, and more importantly...it makes you poor!"
Could they then perhaps, once you click to go in, ask if you want normal, advanced or elite before shuttling you in?
For newish toons the Tzenketti BZ can be considered a higher difficulty,at least until you learn their tricks.
No idea what it would take to have higher difficulty options in other battle zones but with dev time being at a premium don't think I'd like having to forgo new missions, ships, outfits, etc. just to satisfy what is probably a small handful of players who believe "instakills" are an issue. It might be cheaper and easier to do something like not forcing players to play on normal difficulty during events.
Patrols already come in all three difficulty levels.
There are only a few people on this forum that think instakills is an issue, but this is not the only active STO community. In fact the population on this forum is only a small percentage of the active population as a whole. There are whole fleets of people who never visit this forum, let alone leave comments here. The only reason i'm here is because i hear about and experience this issue often, and felt it needed to be addressed on the official forums. Most folks i speak to don't think its worth the effort to report the issue here because of the amount of resistance they are likely encounter.
I understand the frustration of being forced into lower level events, that's just the way they were presented to us.
The problem itself is that some players can achieve ridiculous amounts of DPS output, but with nowhere to use it effectively without stepping on the toes of the regular players who can't compete at that level. There is nothing wrong with that much power, provided you have somewhere sensible to use it. Throwing it around in low level group content is not very considerate or thoughtful.
Some will inevitably wave it around like a toddler with a gun. But most will at least attempt to consider their fellow players.
They are just two words. Play whatever level of difficulty you feel comfortable with.
To play elite TFO's 100K is fine. To be elite, just purchase an elite captain training token.
One thing to try is to queue up a patrol that has waves of enemies such as the Ninth Rule. At what difficulty level do you find the final enemy groups a reasonable challenge?
The OP seems to be on a bit of a crusade (some have had other words for this) and is playing the crowd.
There seems to be a fair number of players in the 15-30K range.
Yes, as a prime example, It's difficult to learn those tricks if the Tzenkethi are being instantly vaporized by overpowered players.
It's possible.
Please try to keep your comments relevant to the discussion at hand.
This kind of judgmental attitude is precisely why most people do not bring their concerns to the official forum.
P.S. Edit; Enduring personal judgment on an offical forum is not beneficial to this discussion or the forum community.
I wasn't sure if I was going to respond in here or not but after reading some of the latest stuff I feel I have to. This quotation as a whole, and especially the lines I've highlighted in bold or italics are the exact problem with this line of logic and thinking.
First up, who gets to define what is "somewhere sensible" and what isn't? This is the problem I have when threads like this pop up, given enough time they almost always show themselves as anti-dps crusaders trying to rid the game of DPSer oppression on those who "can't compete at that level" as though doing a ton of DPS somehow is wrong. You are not the arbiter of what is "sensible" and what isn't. If I wanted to bust out a 500k+ build and carry a friend who just started playing the game through some randoms, who are you or anyone else to tell me I shouldn't be allowed to do that?
This brings me to the two bits outlined in bold as it further demonstrates my issue with this anti-dps crusading some people do. People love to hide behind the whole "consider their fellow players" junk when talking about this stuff, while at the same time demanding that their fellow players be restricted because THEY have decided THEY don't like that other player doing something they don't like or can't do themselves.
On one hand you say "there is nothing wrong with having that much DPS" but on the other hand say "people are doing too much already and there needs to be a limit." Clearly you do believe there is a problem with having that much DPS or you wouldn't be advocating restrictions, so why beat around the bush? Why not just say it straight out of the gate that you think there is too much damage and it needs to be restricted?
It's the same song and dance every time I see people complaining about this stuff and it never changes. Someone comes on complaining about DPS being too high and needs to be restricted. Then when people post any kind of counter argument, the gaslighting comes out of "you just don't care about your fellow players."
It's disingenuous, hypocritical, downright dishonest, and jerkish when people pull that kind of a stunt. I have no issues with people voicing their opinions, thoughts, concerns or what have you, even if that opinion is that DPS is too high in game. What I DO have a problem with is when people try to say DPS is too high, then try to beat people over the head saying "you just don't care about your fellow players" when folks pose counter arguments. I would respect people who hold these opinions more if they would just straight up say from the start they want DPS limited because they don't like it vs trying to hide behind the "you just don't care about your fellow players" junk.
Again I am not responsible for the fun of other people, they alone are responsible for their own fun. I've worked years to perfect my craft in this game and I'm not crippling myself just to appease someone else. I hope I don't ever AFK someone when I go into a run but if it happens it happens. Only thing I can try to do is offer help to that person so it doesn't happen again. People with high DPS have just as much right to be in random TFOs or events like Red Alerts as the lower DPS people. So long as you meet the minimum requirements set forth by the game itself, you have a right to be in there. If a TFO requires a minimum of 15k from everyone on the team to clear it, and you're at the 15k minimum you have just as much right to be there as the guy doing 500k+.
Star Trek Online volunteer Community Moderator
I understand what you're saying here. And also that this is a tired old subject that people want to just go away, and i get it.
Each player is responsible for their own actions, and how they choose to effect the people around them.
It is indeed the same old song and dance, and yes it never changes. But i firmly believe that these issues will never go away if it is never addressed properly. The repetition from my point of view is the sheer amount of opposition to resolving a genuine issue that is being generated by people who don't feel that this is an issue, or understand what is being said about this issue.
My statement that you quoted seems pretty clear to me. I don't know how i can make it any clearer for you. I'm also a little disappointed that i'm receiving such an unnecessarily personal attack from a community moderator. I was under the impression that moderators are here to moderate such behavior.
The inability to understand the complexities of this issue is in part why it is never going to be resolved by us, the regular forum users. These decisions are for the developers to make. Regular forum users can only serve to bring these issues to the attention of the developers using the provided official means, like the official forum.
There are some good ideas and points being made, some comments have been taken out of context and some comments and replies seem to indicate that the original post was either misunderstood or ignored completely.
As expected, some disagreements and differing opinions have created some sparks, some hairs were split, but only a moderate amount of pouncing, and almost no spurting jugulars.
Nice work people.
I would suggest that asking the Pro DPS chasers what they might consider to be suitable content. It won't solve the problem of individuals acting selfishly in a multiplayer environment, that kind of behavior will unfortunately persist as long as the ability to do so exists.
As i have stated, forums are not my cup of tea, and i've said what i came here to say. I have nothing more to add to the conversation that has'nt been said already, and i find that i'm repeating myself much more than i'd prefer. If folks wish to continue this discussion, have at it. If it dries up and vanishes into the necro thread graveyard, so be it. At least it will have plenty of company.
I don't expect to see anything change anytime soon, but hopefully the developers have been made aware that the game environment is currently host to a growing problem with potentially long term complications. It's now up to the developers to decide whether this issue is serious enough to effect their view of the bigger picture. I assumed that the offical forum was the best place to discuss this kind of in-game issue, if not.... nevermind.
I'll be sure to appear suddenly and complain bitterly the next time some other trivial atrocity leaves me sobbing into my pillow.
Thanks for reading.
"If you cannot see the issue, don't understand the issue or don't think it is an issue, you are 'possibly' part of the problem."
"If you are offended by that statement, you are 'probably' part of the problem."
"If by now, you are raging and spitting blood about either of those statements, you are 'definitely' part of the problem."
translated with Google
A couple of points that need to be made before getting into the actual response.
-First, having green text next to my name or next to the names of my cohorts doesn't protect people from hearing thoughts and opinions from us people may not like. We have just as much right to voice our thoughts, opinions and concerns as everyone else.
-Second, disagreement with someone and criticizing their position and logic does NOT constitute a personal attack. I have not called you any name other than your forum name here, nor have I gone out of my way to insult you personally. In my post above, two things were directed at you specifically when I said "you are not the arbiter of what is sensible and what isn't", and again when I asked why you said "there is nothing wrong with that much DPS" when clearly you don't believe it. The rest is my own thoughts and opinions on the situation as a whole and the lines of logic used which you are free to agree/disagree with.
-Now with obligatory said, on to the actual response. I will be breaking the post apart to address individual sections.
You acknowledge that players are responsible for their actions, which I'm glad to see. At the same time you still insist that somehow people are responsible for the fun of other players. Again neither myself nor anyone else are responsible for your fun in game. If you are not having fun in game, that's a you problem. When I press that random button I have no idea what the other people are going to be like when I get in there. I might get a group of people that think and play exactly like I do, and I might not. There is no way for me to account for every possible scenario that could happen. I would need to be Dr Strange with the Time Stone or a higher level being like a Q that could see into the future to do that. Even then why should I or anyone else have to hamstring our builds because we MIGHT get people who don't like it? Why should that be my responsibility?
So first thing on this that you need to understand, simply because someone disagrees with you does NOT mean they can't "understand the complexities of the issue" or what have you. It simply means they disagree with you.
To give a bit of background on myself, I have been creating mods for various older games like Star Trek Armada II, Timesplitters Future Perfect along with a host of other older games, and now including Space Engineers as a more modern game, for 20 years now. I have created maps, levels, items, and so on for these games with several of my maps for Timesplitters being EA recommended downloads for weeks at the time. The most recent creation of mine was my Space Engineers 2125 era mod that expands on what the tech of the vanilla game would look like a further 50 years into the future of its timeline and is essentially a complete rebalance of every block in the game. How many components is needed to build them, how much of each resource to make each component, where to get each resource including having added some new ones to the worlds, along with balancing the weapons in said mod, power generation and the like. It took me as a one person project around 8 weeks to get that mod to where I wanted, and that's with recycling some already existing bits. I've since put alot more into that mod. Point being that while I'm not a AAA studio dev, I know what it takes to balance something as I've done it.
Just as you are free to give feedback on things you see as potential issues and voice your thoughts and opinions on them, other people are free to chime in after the fact and say "don't listen to this guy". You don't have to like it when people disagree with you about a particular subject. At the same time you disliking it doesn't negate their right to voice said disagreement.
You speak in vague generalities that you never define and give specifics on, yet you say you don't know how to make it anymore clear. So allow me to assist with this.
In part of your previous post you said the above quotation. Specifically in the line in bold you said "there is nothing wrong with that much power, provided you have somewhere sensible to use it."
So to that point in bold, define for us what you consider to be "somewhere sensible". What is the standard for this?
If I want to play with a friend of mine who just started the game and level match my friend to run some missions with him, why should I not be allowed to bring my best build? If said friend is a fresh 65 and I want to carry him through some random TFOs to get him some marks or what have you, why should I not be allowed to bring a 500k+ build to do that if I want to? So long as I'm no deliberately AFKing people or my friend, what is the issue? The TFOs and events are for everyone, yet you are essentially wanting to exclude certain people from certain events and TFOs based on your arbitrary standard you have yet to define.
And what is the standard for being addressed properly? Again I'm asking you to define this. Clearly you have a standard in mind as to what you consider it being addressed properly or you wouldn't say this. If you want to know why you are getting "opposition to resolving a genuine issue" I will explain.
First, people disagreeing does not mean they misunderstand something. It means they disagree with you as I said before.
The reason you're getting pushback, and rightfully so, is you're coming on here complaining and saying that you don't like that it's possible to get super high DPS and don't like getting grouped with "insta-vape" builds as you called them. Yet instead of simply advocating for additional content for us so called insta-vapers to do (yes please to content), or choosing to group with like minded players so this isn't an issue you could encounter, you instead demand that myself and others be limited and our fun be limited because YOU don't like it.
You say "Each player is responsible for their own actions, and how they choose to effect the people around them.", acknowledging your own personal responsibility, yet are demanding something be done to other people because YOU personally don't like what those other people are doing. You are demanding the game cater to YOUR standard of fun and the fun of others be restricted.
What you're doing is the equivalent of a vegan telling their neighbor they shouldn't be allowed to eat a steak because it offends them. Then when that neighbor tells the vegan to mind their own business as they're just feeding their family, that vegan resorts to the classic "you just hate animals and want them to suffer" card to gaslight the neighbor and try to manipulate them.
In this instance you are coming onto these forums and saying you don't like that some of your fellow players have achieved a certain level of DPS and as a result you want their ability to achieve said DPS removed from them. Just like our hypothetical vegan was trying to take food from their neighbor, you are basically advocating the progress of other players be stolen from them. Then when people push back on it you bust out the "you're not considering other players" card. Yet you really expect me to believe you don't understand why you're getting pushback on this.
I'm sorry but that's disingenuous to the core.
Simply put dude, there is an issue here, but it's not with insta-vape builds, high DPSers or even the low DPSers. The issue is people demanding the progress and ability of others be restricted because they don't like it. THAT is the issue.
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(Emphasis added.)
Good point, and I feel this is too easily ignored.
When designing the content, the developers behind this game made maps with a certain total amount of hitpoints. Say, 100 million total HP. I highly doubt then that it was intended that a single player can 100 million damage in 30 seconds or so. If that was the intention, the total number of HP on the map would likely have been higher.
Saying that other people should simply get good and also deal more damage doesn't make much sense as a solution then.
Now, someone earlier in the thread mentioned that the discussion is kind of pointless without some input from Cryptic itself. I agree with that statement. They should take some responsibility and at the very least inform the playerbase whether it's working as intended that players can reach such high levels of DPS. That's also in those players' interest, because then they can finally know whether new damage balances will be a thing, e.g. whether there's a point to keep improving - or if they're just accelerating the arrival of nerfs.
(Of course, it's unlikely they'll commit to anything or make any sort of official statement because of legal reasons - if that is indeed the case, they certainly deserve to be called out for that.)
Five people are invited to a party with a small number of snacks on the table for a limited time. Some of them elect to finish their drinks prior to eating.
Players entering event maps are usually presented with multiple waves of enemies for a set duration. Nothing any player does on these maps makes much of a difference as the snacks on the table keep refilling themselves.
Players entering advanced difficulty TFO's have a variety of options available in order for them to avoid being labelled as absent, even though this label is very rarely applied. Sipping one's drink prior to eating might not be an option at this level.