Ok, this thread is getting long winded, repetitious and messy.
There are some good ideas and points being made, some comments have been taken out of context and some comments and replies seem to indicate that the original post was either misunderstood or ignored completely.
As expected, some disagreements and differing opinions have created some sparks, some hairs were split, but only a moderate amount of pouncing, and almost no spurting jugulars.
Nice work people.
I would suggest that asking the Pro DPS chasers what they might consider to be suitable content. It won't solve the problem of individuals acting selfishly in a multiplayer environment, that kind of behavior will unfortunately persist as long as the ability to do so exists.
As i have stated, forums are not my cup of tea, and i've said what i came here to say. I have nothing more to add to the conversation that has'nt been said already, and i find that i'm repeating myself much more than i'd prefer. If folks wish to continue this discussion, have at it. If it dries up and vanishes into the necro thread graveyard, so be it. At least it will have plenty of company.
I don't expect to see anything change anytime soon, but hopefully the developers have been made aware that the game environment is currently host to a growing problem with potentially long term complications. It's now up to the developers to decide whether this issue is serious enough to effect their view of the bigger picture. I assumed that the offical forum was the best place to discuss this kind of in-game issue, if not.... nevermind.
I'll be sure to appear suddenly and complain bitterly the next time some other trivial atrocity leaves me sobbing into my pillow.
Thanks for reading.
"If you cannot see the issue, don't understand the issue or don't think it is an issue, you are 'possibly' part of the problem."
"If you are offended by that statement, you are 'probably' part of the problem."
"If by now, you are raging and spitting blood about either of those statements, you are 'definitely' part of the problem."
Actually, I wasn't planning on commenting on this thread at all, but since the sometimes quite offensive style of some of the comments from both high and low dps'rs (and while the rules say no moderation discussion is allowed with mods, don't really know if that applies here) and also certain mods don't act too modest (by which I mean - not neutral) I'll post a short one anyway. High or low dps sooner or later one comes into contact with it, someone with a low dps coming into contact with someone with a high is in my humble opinion many someone who hasn't spent as much time in the game as the others, money has little to do with this as there are plenty of opportunities to get the same consoles and other materials if one is around long enough, when I started the game years ago I felt the same way and now own a few ships myself who have a high dps. Then I'm not talking about 600k but +800k and even one that goes over 1.5m when I'm having a bad day as I read all the comments here I got tired of reading the same thing on the ingame chat and decided on a day to ditch those ships and build mediocre ones that would do around 600k dps (which apparently still counts as high dps, how low do i have to go to be mediocre?) and people still seem to be complaining while i have a ship that even makes it that even has some uncommen mkXII beams. What am I supposed to do, fly around with standard weapons? No way. Although I'm against being overpowered I'm thinking about replaying those high dps ships after reading all that comment here, after all I've put all that time and effort into building them and have only used them on new solo missions . The negative reactions against someone who takes the trouble to build such a solid ship, now that the potential is certainly there with the reputation of parts one can get that one didn't have before, makes it easy for me to show what can be built without possibly throwing thousands of euros/dollars at it. I know it's not easy as a beginner speller and veterans will assure it used to be even harder, but many now want to achieve far too quickly what others have taken years to achieve.
I understand what you're saying here. And also that this is a tired old subject that people want to just go away, and i get it.
Each player is responsible for their own actions, and how they choose to effect the people around them.
It is indeed the same old song and dance, and yes it never changes. But i firmly believe that these issues will never go away if it is never addressed properly. The repetition from my point of view is the sheer amount of opposition to resolving a genuine issue that is being generated by people who don't feel that this is an issue, or understand what is being said about this issue.
My statement that you quoted seems pretty clear to me. I don't know how i can make it any clearer for you. I'm also a little disappointed that i'm receiving such an unnecessarily personal attack from a community moderator. I was under the impression that moderators are here to moderate such behavior.
The inability to understand the complexities of this issue is in part why it is never going to be resolved by us, the regular forum users. These decisions are for the developers to make. Regular forum users can only serve to bring these issues to the attention of the developers using the provided official means, like the official forum.
A couple of points that need to be made before getting into the actual response.
-First, having green text next to my name or next to the names of my cohorts doesn't protect people from hearing thoughts and opinions from us people may not like. We have just as much right to voice our thoughts, opinions and concerns as everyone else.
-Second, disagreement with someone and criticizing their position and logic does NOT constitute a personal attack. I have not called you any name other than your forum name here, nor have I gone out of my way to insult you personally. In my post above, two things were directed at you specifically when I said "you are not the arbiter of what is sensible and what isn't", and again when I asked why you said "there is nothing wrong with that much DPS" when clearly you don't believe it. The rest is my own thoughts and opinions on the situation as a whole and the lines of logic used which you are free to agree/disagree with.
-Now with obligatory said, on to the actual response. I will be breaking the post apart to address individual sections.
Each player is responsible for their own actions, and how they choose to effect the people around them.
You acknowledge that players are responsible for their actions, which I'm glad to see. At the same time you still insist that somehow people are responsible for the fun of other players. Again neither myself nor anyone else are responsible for your fun in game. If you are not having fun in game, that's a you problem. When I press that random button I have no idea what the other people are going to be like when I get in there. I might get a group of people that think and play exactly like I do, and I might not. There is no way for me to account for every possible scenario that could happen. I would need to be Dr Strange with the Time Stone or a higher level being like a Q that could see into the future to do that. Even then why should I or anyone else have to hamstring our builds because we MIGHT get people who don't like it? Why should that be my responsibility?
The inability to understand the complexities of this issue is in part why it is never going to be resolved by us, the regular forum users. These decisions are for the developers to make. Regular forum users can only serve to bring these issues to the attention of the developers using the provided official means, like the official forum.
So first thing on this that you need to understand, simply because someone disagrees with you does NOT mean they can't "understand the complexities of the issue" or what have you. It simply means they disagree with you.
To give a bit of background on myself, I have been creating mods for various older games like Star Trek Armada II, Timesplitters Future Perfect along with a host of other older games, and now including Space Engineers as a more modern game, for 20 years now. I have created maps, levels, items, and so on for these games with several of my maps for Timesplitters being EA recommended downloads for weeks at the time. The most recent creation of mine was my Space Engineers 2125 era mod that expands on what the tech of the vanilla game would look like a further 50 years into the future of its timeline and is essentially a complete rebalance of every block in the game. How many components is needed to build them, how much of each resource to make each component, where to get each resource including having added some new ones to the worlds, along with balancing the weapons in said mod, power generation and the like. It took me as a one person project around 8 weeks to get that mod to where I wanted, and that's with recycling some already existing bits. I've since put alot more into that mod. Point being that while I'm not a AAA studio dev, I know what it takes to balance something as I've done it.
Just as you are free to give feedback on things you see as potential issues and voice your thoughts and opinions on them, other people are free to chime in after the fact and say "don't listen to this guy". You don't have to like it when people disagree with you about a particular subject. At the same time you disliking it doesn't negate their right to voice said disagreement.
My statement that you quoted seems pretty clear to me. I don't know how i can make it any clearer for you. I'm also a little disappointed that i'm receiving such an unnecessarily personal attack from a community moderator. I was under the impression that moderators are here to moderate such behavior.
You speak in vague generalities that you never define and give specifics on, yet you say you don't know how to make it anymore clear. So allow me to assist with this.
The problem itself is that some players can achieve ridiculous amounts of DPS output, but with nowhere to use it effectively without stepping on the toes of the regular players who can't compete at that level. There is nothing wrong with that much power, provided you have somewhere sensible to use it. Throwing it around in low level group content is not very considerate or thoughtful.
Some will inevitably wave it around like a toddler with a gun. But most will at least attempt to consider their fellow players.
In part of your previous post you said the above quotation. Specifically in the line in bold you said "there is nothing wrong with that much power, provided you have somewhere sensible to use it."
So to that point in bold, define for us what you consider to be "somewhere sensible". What is the standard for this?
If I want to play with a friend of mine who just started the game and level match my friend to run some missions with him, why should I not be allowed to bring my best build? If said friend is a fresh 65 and I want to carry him through some random TFOs to get him some marks or what have you, why should I not be allowed to bring a 500k+ build to do that if I want to? So long as I'm no deliberately AFKing people or my friend, what is the issue? The TFOs and events are for everyone, yet you are essentially wanting to exclude certain people from certain events and TFOs based on your arbitrary standard you have yet to define.
It is indeed the same old song and dance, and yes it never changes. But i firmly believe that these issues will never go away if it is never addressed properly. The repetition from my point of view is the sheer amount of opposition to resolving a genuine issue that is being generated by people who don't feel that this is an issue, or understand what is being said about this issue.
And what is the standard for being addressed properly? Again I'm asking you to define this. Clearly you have a standard in mind as to what you consider it being addressed properly or you wouldn't say this. If you want to know why you are getting "opposition to resolving a genuine issue" I will explain.
First, people disagreeing does not mean they misunderstand something. It means they disagree with you as I said before.
The reason you're getting pushback, and rightfully so, is you're coming on here complaining and saying that you don't like that it's possible to get super high DPS and don't like getting grouped with "insta-vape" builds as you called them. Yet instead of simply advocating for additional content for us so called insta-vapers to do (yes please to content), or choosing to group with like minded players so this isn't an issue you could encounter, you instead demand that myself and others be limited and our fun be limited because YOU don't like it.
You say "Each player is responsible for their own actions, and how they choose to effect the people around them.", acknowledging your own personal responsibility, yet are demanding something be done to other people because YOU personally don't like what those other people are doing. You are demanding the game cater to YOUR standard of fun and the fun of others be restricted.
What you're doing is the equivalent of a vegan telling their neighbor they shouldn't be allowed to eat a steak because it offends them. Then when that neighbor tells the vegan to mind their own business as they're just feeding their family, that vegan resorts to the classic "you just hate animals and want them to suffer" card to gaslight the neighbor and try to manipulate them.
In this instance you are coming onto these forums and saying you don't like that some of your fellow players have achieved a certain level of DPS and as a result you want their ability to achieve said DPS removed from them. Just like our hypothetical vegan was trying to take food from their neighbor, you are basically advocating the progress of other players be stolen from them. Then when people push back on it you bust out the "you're not considering other players" card. Yet you really expect me to believe you don't understand why you're getting pushback on this.
I'm sorry but that's disingenuous to the core.
Simply put dude, there is an issue here, but it's not with insta-vape builds, high DPSers or even the low DPSers. The issue is people demanding the progress and ability of others be restricted because they don't like it. THAT is the issue.
"Someone once told me that time was a predator that stalked us all our lives. I rather believe that time is a companion who goes with us on the journey and reminds us to cherish every moment, because it will never come again." - Jean Luc Picard in Star Trek Generations
Can we please refrain from being insulting when disagreeing with one another? Thank you.
Star Trek Online Volunteer Community Moderator and Resident She-Wolf
Community Moderators are Unpaid Volunteers and NOT Employees of Gearbox/Cryptic
Views and Opinions May Not Reflect the Views and Opinions of Gearbox/Cryptic
Always interesting to see how some in the DPS community totally miss the mark, use words like disingenuous and hypocritical without applying the same to themselves, and providing lengthy diatribes to try justify their view and bully others into accepting their play style. The level of narcissism never ceases to amaze.
What you're doing is the equivalent of a vegan telling their neighbor they shouldn't be allowed to eat a steak because it offends them. Then when that neighbor tells the vegan to mind their own business as they're just feeding their family, that vegan resorts to the classic "you just hate animals and want them to suffer" card to gaslight the neighbor and try to manipulate them.
Here is a more appropriate analogy -
Five people are invited to a party and one person eats the entire buffet before anyone else has the opportunity to take a single bite. Their reasoning is "I am hungrier and can eat more than you, so it is your fault you did not get any food."
Under most social situations, who in that story would be considered rude? I believe what some people here are asking is for that one person to remember to be considerate of others and to share the food.
I will repeat, I personally do not see DPS limits as the answer. I will also say that I find it very difficult to believe that Cryptic finds absolutely no issue whatsoever with players entering normal and advanced level TFOs and vaporizing the entire map in under 30 seconds, especially if that behavior is causing other players to suffer an AFK penalty. Players fundamentally want to feel like they have achieved something, and high DPS players wiping an entire map before someone else can even get a single shot off is antithetical to that, not to mention the risk versus reward and timesink structures.
@ryjokel - perhaps you might pose this as a question in the next Developer Q&A thread or better yet, on one of the weekly livestreams.
(Emphasis added.)
Good point, and I feel this is too easily ignored.
When designing the content, the developers behind this game made maps with a certain total amount of hitpoints. Say, 100 million total HP. I highly doubt then that it was intended that a single player can 100 million damage in 30 seconds or so. If that was the intention, the total number of HP on the map would likely have been higher.
Saying that other people should simply get good and also deal more damage doesn't make much sense as a solution then.
Now, someone earlier in the thread mentioned that the discussion is kind of pointless without some input from Cryptic itself. I agree with that statement. They should take some responsibility and at the very least inform the playerbase whether it's working as intended that players can reach such high levels of DPS. That's also in those players' interest, because then they can finally know whether new damage balances will be a thing, e.g. whether there's a point to keep improving - or if they're just accelerating the arrival of nerfs.
(Of course, it's unlikely they'll commit to anything or make any sort of official statement because of legal reasons - if that is indeed the case, they certainly deserve to be called out for that.)
Deliberate or not, if your build and skill level is causing other players to receive a penalty, you are a big part of the problem.
When somebody receives a penalty normally associated with being absent, one possible option might be to consider exploring different ways of doing things in order to not receive such a penalty.
Five people are invited to a party and one person eats the entire buffet before anyone else has the opportunity to take a single bite.
Five people are invited to a party with a small number of snacks on the table for a limited time. Some of them elect to finish their drinks prior to eating.
players entering normal and advanced level TFOs and vaporizing the entire map in under 30 seconds
Players entering event maps are usually presented with multiple waves of enemies for a set duration. Nothing any player does on these maps makes much of a difference as the snacks on the table keep refilling themselves.
Players entering advanced difficulty TFO's have a variety of options available in order for them to avoid being labelled as absent, even though this label is very rarely applied. Sipping one's drink prior to eating might not be an option at this level.
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rattler2Member, Star Trek Online ModeratorPosts: 58,396Community Moderator
Are you suggesting that the developers intend for the average ISA to be completed in under 30 seconds?
I don't think that's the implication at all. I personally think its just a case of players growing faster than the Devs anticipated. And honestly Infected used to have ways to cheese it years ago before we even had T6 and all the power creep we have now.
There was a time that the Gate was not untargetable and only had rediculous regen as long as the Transformers were active. Back then there was the 10% rule of bring the generators down to 10% then nuke them all at once and pound the Transformer before the probes got there. Rince and repeat on the other side. But then people figured out how to cheese it with Tricobalt Mines, enabling enough spike damage to not only overcome the regen, but literally kill the gate BEFORE the Transformers were destroyed. Cryptic's response to that was... not exactly well received as it basically made Tricobalt useless. Decreasing the overall damage, but keeping the "DPS" the same as pre-nerf Tricos. Kinda defeated the purpose of Tricos being spike damage but... it kinda solved that problem. Then we had another issue come up, and I think that eventually led to the current incarnation where the Gate is shielded and untargetable until the Transformers die.
Are you suggesting that the developers intend for the average ISA to be completed in under 30 seconds?
I don't think that's the implication at all. I personally think its just a case of players growing faster than the Devs anticipated. And honestly Infected used to have ways to cheese it years ago before we even had T6 and all the power creep we have now.
There was a time that the Gate was not untargetable and only had rediculous regen as long as the Transformers were active. Back then there was the 10% rule of bring the generators down to 10% then nuke them all at once and pound the Transformer before the probes got there. Rince and repeat on the other side. But then people figured out how to cheese it with Tricobalt Mines, enabling enough spike damage to not only overcome the regen, but literally kill the gate BEFORE the Transformers were destroyed. Cryptic's response to that was... not exactly well received as it basically made Tricobalt useless. Decreasing the overall damage, but keeping the "DPS" the same as pre-nerf Tricos. Kinda defeated the purpose of Tricos being spike damage but... it kinda solved that problem. Then we had another issue come up, and I think that eventually led to the current incarnation where the Gate is shielded and untargetable until the Transformers die.
It's not just Infected though. High-powered energy weapons or spore infused anomalies triggering up to 6 times off three or four anomalies each will quickly mean that players run out of HP to target on any map.
And I don't think it's a good theory, the idea that it's just the result of some unforeseen, fast development of players. Power creep is sold and constantly promoted. Not just in the conventional ways like through new OP traits and consoles, but also by adding free bonuses like those from endeavours (which are free both in the sense of not requiring purchase, as well as no sacrifice/choices required) and through upgrade tokens that allow stacking of even more effects and powers.
I mean, I don't know about you guys, but I remember when I had to work to get something like 25% crit chance and 150% critd. Those were numbers I considered high and once achieved, I'd treat the ship as finished (or at least the weapon dealing part of the ship would be considered finished).
Now I have a toon that was created mere weeks ago and her legendary sovereign has 31,5 Crit chance and 199,6 Crit severity - outside of combat. And that's not even the highest I've seen across my toons. And for the record: I didn't even try that hard to achieve these numbers, if I wanted, I could probably easily increase those even further.
Think about it: the crit severity and crit chance on a new toon are now easily and with little effort much higher than what would - a few years ago - have been considered very high on veteran toons with tons of investments having gone into them. And that's just those two stats.
Deliberate or not, if your build and skill level is causing other players to receive a penalty, you are a big part of the problem.
When somebody receives a penalty normally associated with being absent, one possible option might be to consider exploring different ways of doing things in order to not receive such a penalty.
Really. How insightful. Kindly elucidate one or more ways in which one might do things differently in order to avoid receiving a penalty for failing to do damage when one is literally not presented with an opportunity to do said damage.
When somebody receives a penalty normally associated with being absent, one possible option might be to consider exploring different ways of doing things in order to not receive such a penalty.
One of the borg STF's. By the time my ship has got to the cubes two ships the size of a shuttle has already reached them, wiped all of them out and have went on to the side and has already taken down half of the conduits. By the time ive managed to get a shot off, literally ONE...SHOT...OFF these little Attack Pattern Credit Card ships have blown everything up.
That was the experience ive had with a Fleet Excelsior running MK12 AP beams with the full assimilated set and it happened several times on my first return to this game 2 weeks ago after a 4 year break. Four of my friends who also decided to come back also experienced this, they stayed for one day, branded the current ST:O "Pay to win gone insane" and quit.
I decided to stick around though and throw some cash at Dil and the exchange to overhaul the current ships i had. The plain fact is though that the massive gap between "normal" damage, and the attack pattern credit card damage is causing people to quit.
"You know when that shark bites, with its teeth dear... scarlet billows start to spread..."
Deliberate or not, if your build and skill level is causing other players to receive a penalty, you are a big part of the problem.
When somebody receives a penalty normally associated with being absent, one possible option might be to consider exploring different ways of doing things in order to not receive such a penalty.
Really. How insightful. Kindly elucidate one or more ways in which one might do things differently in order to avoid receiving a penalty for failing to do damage when one is literally not presented with an opportunity to do said damage.
I'd be happy to try and help Jon. I had to google elucidate. Keep in mind that I'm not saying that whatever you do for fun is wrong, just that it may not be the best option for the particular advanced TFO map that has been known to go a little quickly for some players tastes. Your own unique sense of canon is always right, until it results in a penalty. At that point the first thing I'd suggest is to use the loadout system, thusly..
By separating your "canon fun" and doing "more damage", both can be preserved. Now it's possible to do normal difficulty TFO's, missions, and events using your canon fun loadout and then switch to something different when on that particular advanced map to avoid penalties. Lots of the uberdeepz players use different loadouts for different maps so why not follow their lead ?
With that out of the way let's explore what to do differently in order to avoid receiving a penalty.
Replace emergency power to shields with emergency power to engines. Keep on using ep to weapons.
Add an Emergency Conn Officer duty officer (from the Phoenix store) to your active duty (space) roster.
Slot some deuterium in one of your ship's device slots, press P, and drag the ability to your tray.
That is it! (well almost) Since the absent penalty is based on doing less than about two percent of a team's damage, being more mobile makes a huge difference as all that's really needed is to get some shots in. The conn officer gives you the ability to reset evasive maneuvers by using EPtE and the deuterium surplus is yet another opportunity at getting where you need to go, quickly, to get more shots in.
Since you've mentioned a few specific things about one of your builds previously I'll add a couple more things to try in order to do more damage..
Remove all torpedoes aside from the one facing FORWARD and replace them with beam arrays.
Remove the mine and replace it with another beam array.
When on advanced "eat first and then sip your drink"
When somebody receives a penalty normally associated with being absent, one possible option might be to consider exploring different ways of doing things in order to not receive such a penalty.
One of the borg STF's. By the time my ship has got to the cubes two ships the size of a shuttle has already reached them, wiped all of them out and have went on to the side and has already taken down half of the conduits. By the time ive managed to get a shot off, literally ONE...SHOT...OFF these little Attack Pattern Credit Card ships have blown everything up.
That was the experience ive had with a Fleet Excelsior running MK12 AP beams with the full assimilated set and it happened several times on my first return to this game 2 weeks ago after a 4 year break. Four of my friends who also decided to come back also experienced this, they stayed for one day, branded the current ST:O "Pay to win gone insane" and quit.
I decided to stick around though and throw some cash at Dil and the exchange to overhaul the current ships i had. The plain fact is though that the massive gap between "normal" damage, and the attack pattern credit card damage is causing people to quit.
The Fleet Excelsior is one of my favorite ships.
In addition to the things mentioned above, you may want to try some Competitive reputation engines.
Here's a video link that talks about things players do to get themselves around a map. Starting about 27:10 is some tips specific to Infected Space. Having somebody take the time to go through this step by step is a beautiful thing.
These days it's not always possible to do much in the way of damage without mobility.
I don't always get it right but having a few tools and techniques available really seems to help.
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rattler2Member, Star Trek Online ModeratorPosts: 58,396Community Moderator
I would also, once again, like to ask the question...
Pay2Win... what? There is nothing to win! Its Pay2HaveNow. There is no win in STO as no one is competing! Its not like in Elite Dangerous or Eve where you put real money in and get a significant advantage. Hell... its possible to get shiny without paying a dime when you got patience and lots of Dilithium. I literally ground out many large bundles including the 10th Anniversary Legendary Bundle! How is it P2W when someone like me can literally grind it out and have access to it?
I can never understand the P2W argument with STO because... win WHAT?
But then people figured out how to cheese it with Tricobalt Mines, enabling enough spike damage to not only overcome the regen, but literally kill the gate BEFORE the Transformers were destroyed. Cryptic's response to that was... not exactly well received as it basically made Tricobalt useless. Decreasing the overall damage, but keeping the "DPS" the same as pre-nerf Tricos. .
They didn’t keep the Tricobalt DPS the same they nerfed it to uselessness while also nerfing the spike damage which is why it wasn’t well received. Tricobalts have needed a serious look and rebalance for years. Ruining an entire weapon system due to one NPC being killed on 1 map with a tiny fraction of the player base is a major over reaction. I know this is off topic its just the state of Tricobalts frustrates me with the nerf after nerf after nerf to the point where there is no longer any point in using Tricobalts.
Tricobalts due to the nerfs are the only weapon system you cannot really build a theme around. There is no benefit in running Tricobalts they are worse then every other weapon system in every way. With the exception possibly of 1 single Tricobalt mine.
When somebody receives a penalty normally associated with being absent, one possible option might be to consider exploring different ways of doing things in order to not receive such a penalty.
One of the borg STF's. By the time my ship has got to the cubes two ships the size of a shuttle has already reached them, wiped all of them out and have went on to the side and has already taken down half of the conduits. By the time ive managed to get a shot off, literally ONE...SHOT...OFF these little Attack Pattern Credit Card ships have blown everything up.
That was the experience ive had with a Fleet Excelsior running MK12 AP beams with the full assimilated set and it happened several times on my first return to this game 2 weeks ago after a 4 year break. Four of my friends who also decided to come back also experienced this, they stayed for one day, branded the current ST:O "Pay to win gone insane" and quit.
I decided to stick around though and throw some cash at Dil and the exchange to overhaul the current ships i had. The plain fact is though that the massive gap between "normal" damage, and the attack pattern credit card damage is causing people to quit.
Why are you only using MK XII's!? It's cheap as chips to upgrade these days, don't turn your nose up at it. Get your stuff upgraded to MK XV as soon as,; use your Dil to buy phoenix upgrades. It doesn't have to be Epic, but even at MK XV the performance gain is considerably greater.
There is zero P2W in STO....absolutely nothing to 'win'. You don't compete against anyone except in Competivitive TFO's and direct PvP. You can't have your stuff destroyed, you can't have your resources stolen, you can't be forced into PvP, you're not having to keep gambling on packs trying to acquire 20 copies of a Boff, or hundreds of copies of a ship to upgrade and so on, and so forth. Saying this game is P2W is a lazy excuse, sorry.
"You don't want to patrol!? You don't want to escort!? You don't want to defend the Federation's Starbases!? Then why are you flying my Starships!? If you were a Klingon you'd be killed on the spot, but lucky for you.....you WERE in Starfleet. Let's see how New Zealand Penal Colony suits you." Adm A. Necheyev.
Always interesting to see how some in the DPS community totally miss the mark, use words like disingenuous and hypocritical without applying the same to themselves, and providing lengthy diatribes to try justify their view and bully others into accepting their play style. The level of narcissism never ceases to amaze.
You talk an awful lot about "bullying others into accepting their playstyle" and not applying standards to ones self but to be perfectly blunt, I see alot of folks who share your viewpoint doing exactly that. Applying double standards and bullying others into accepting their playstyle.
By the logic I've seen people use in this thread who share your viewpoint, it's perfectly acceptable and fine for them to demand the game be altered for everyone across the board to suit their non-dps chasing playstyle because they don't like that people can do damage above a certain threshold as they fell it gives out too many AFK penalties. Yet if someone like myself pushes back and says they need to alter their build and/or tactics to avoid an AFK penalty, suddenly in their book I'm gatekeeping and "not considering my fellow player". In other words it's okay for them to demand my gameplay be altered to suit them, but how dare I use that same kind of logic and demand them change what they're doing.
Deliberate or not, if your build and skill level is causing other players to receive a penalty, you are a big part of the problem.
I am not responsible for your build and your knowledge of the game anymore than you are responsible for mine. If someone who is brand new to the game comes into a TFO with subpar build and/or tactics and they receive an AFK penalty as a result of not being ready for the content, that's not my problem. I am not a mind reader and I have no way of knowing if that person next to me in that TFO has been playing for only a week, or has been playing since closed beta.
Have you ever stopped to think that if someone is consistently getting an AFK penalty that maybe, just maybe they're the problem and not the game or other players? I know it's almost blasphemy to even suggest such a thing. The definition of insanity is doing the exact same thing again and again expecting different results.
If you or anyone else are going to insist that myself or others should "be considerate of other players" and alter my build so as to "give everyone a chance to participate", why can I not demand YOU change YOUR build so you can participate easier? Why should I or anyone else have to alter our playstyle or our builds? When people demand the game be altered for myself and others due to their dislike of "insta vape" and demand that I alter my build to suit them, yet get mad at me for suggesting they be the ones to change THEIR build or tactics so they can participate better, I'm sorry but that's absolute hypocrisy in my book.
If you're going to apply your own logic equally, if folks can demand I change my build, I can demand they change theirs. You don't get to have it both ways.
Five people are invited to a party and one person eats the entire buffet before anyone else has the opportunity to take a single bite. Their reasoning is "I am hungrier and can eat more than you, so it is your fault you did not get any food."
Under most social situations, who in that story would be considered rude? I believe what some people here are asking is for that one person to remember to be considerate of others and to share the food.
Your analogy is a loaded question as first and foremost you're assuming that if someone eats more than another person does, it equates to malice. Or in this case, if someone goes into a TFO with a build that's just leagues ahead of another person in damage, they are trying to be malicious to that person. You can make that argument if you want, but you bear the burden of proof to demonstrate maliciousness, and you haven't presented any credible evidence of this.
With that said, let's take the torpedoes out of that analogy of yours and try again. Let's suppose that tomorrow we found out CBS was going to release a new Enterprise F mini-figure to certain stores. Let's suppose a local store has 2 of the figures left and I grab both of those figures with the intent of buying one for myself, and the second for a friend. Let's also suppose that right after I've paid for the figures, another person comes into the store and finds out I just bought the last 2 the store had. This person then offers to buy the second one from me, but I refuse to sell it to them because I am giving the second one to my friend. Tell me, am I wrong for refusing to give that person the second figure? If you believe that I would be wrong in that situation, why would I be wrong? And be specific.
Your food analogy ignores several key factors. The first of which is those people arriving at the same time as each other, and each of the 5 people having the same access to the food. If the first 4 people go ahead and eat while the 5th guy stands around talking to people at the party and the 5th guy misses out on food, that is purely the 5th guy's fault as he deliberately chose not to eat while the food was still available.
I'll give another example using my previous mini-figure example. Let's suppose that this local shop gets 50 of them in stock. Instead of going early when the shop still has it's full stock, the guy waits until right when the shop is about to close and he misses out on those last 2 figures because I got there first, who is at fault, me for buying both, or him for waiting too late?
I will repeat, I personally do not see DPS limits as the answer. I will also say that I find it very difficult to believe that Cryptic finds absolutely no issue whatsoever with players entering normal and advanced level TFOs and vaporizing the entire map in under 30 seconds, especially if that behavior is causing other players to suffer an AFK penalty. Players fundamentally want to feel like they have achieved something, and high DPS players wiping an entire map before someone else can even get a single shot off is antithetical to that, not to mention the risk versus reward and timesink structures.
We can debate what's intentional and what isn't but so long as beating a map in 30 seconds or less doesn't violate terms of service, it's ultimately irrelevant. If you or someone else goes into a run with a ship that moves at the speed of smell, and get a team of people in much faster ships that kill everything before that person in the slower ship can even get there, how is it the fault of the people with the faster ships that the 5th guy deliberately chose a much slower ship?
What you're failing to realize is that again, all players who meet the minimum standards set forth by the game itself for a TFO have a right to be in there, dps chaser and non-dps chaser alike. If the non-chasers are going into an area they are likely to encounter dps chasers, they bear the responsibility for planning accordingly. If the non-chaser doesn't plan accordingly and gets an AFK penalty as a result, it's like knowing it might rain but refusing to pack an umbrella then getting mad at the weather guy you get wet.
When it comes to an AFK penalty, to even get one you need to have done less than 1%-2% of the damage for the entirety of the run. Take ISA for example. The last time I went into an ISA the team did a total of around 45m damage over the totality of the run which was around 73 seconds. I don't know what the actual total amount of health is for everything in that TFO, but let's say for argument sake it's 45m. In order for a person to avoid the AFK penalty, this means they would need to deal 450k damage over the totality of the run, which is 1% of 45m. Assuming this person was in the 73 second run with me and the others I was with, this person would've needed to do 6200 DPS. If we assume a slower run of 2 minutes and 30 seconds, which used to be the average for ISA way back when, this lowers the total DPS required to 3k. The longer the run, the lower the overall damage output required.
A basic cohesive ship using only the free mk xii very rare gear you get from missions can get there in around 2 firing cycles using 7 beams and a torpedo while under the effects of Emergency Power to Weapons, Attack Pattern Beta, FAW, and Torpedo Spread. Anything else is gravy. I don't see what's so unreasonable about expecting your teammates to at least 1% of the damage.
"Someone once told me that time was a predator that stalked us all our lives. I rather believe that time is a companion who goes with us on the journey and reminds us to cherish every moment, because it will never come again." - Jean Luc Picard in Star Trek Generations
Please stop this hostile interrogation of everyone, and everything that is being said. This is not suitable behavior for a Community Moderator. Green tag or not, please behave yourself.
I'm struggling to see where your relentless disagreement with every opinion fits into this discussion. You are way off the mark, have missed the point entirely, and still don't seem to understand the subject matter of the Original Post.
If you do not like this conversation or the subject matter, then i respectfully suggest that you consider finding a conversation that you do like, and engage with that instead.
Frankly, i'm shocked that this level of hostile aggression is allowed to run unchecked on the "Official Star Trek Online Forum."
Alright. This is it. Final warning to EVERYONE. Act civilly and stop sniping each other. I will be closing this thread next.
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Views and Opinions May Not Reflect the Views and Opinions of Gearbox/Cryptic
Star Trek Online Volunteer Community Moderator and Resident She-Wolf
Community Moderators are Unpaid Volunteers and NOT Employees of Gearbox/Cryptic
Views and Opinions May Not Reflect the Views and Opinions of Gearbox/Cryptic
Comments
There are some good ideas and points being made, some comments have been taken out of context and some comments and replies seem to indicate that the original post was either misunderstood or ignored completely.
As expected, some disagreements and differing opinions have created some sparks, some hairs were split, but only a moderate amount of pouncing, and almost no spurting jugulars.
Nice work people.
I would suggest that asking the Pro DPS chasers what they might consider to be suitable content. It won't solve the problem of individuals acting selfishly in a multiplayer environment, that kind of behavior will unfortunately persist as long as the ability to do so exists.
As i have stated, forums are not my cup of tea, and i've said what i came here to say. I have nothing more to add to the conversation that has'nt been said already, and i find that i'm repeating myself much more than i'd prefer. If folks wish to continue this discussion, have at it. If it dries up and vanishes into the necro thread graveyard, so be it. At least it will have plenty of company.
I don't expect to see anything change anytime soon, but hopefully the developers have been made aware that the game environment is currently host to a growing problem with potentially long term complications. It's now up to the developers to decide whether this issue is serious enough to effect their view of the bigger picture. I assumed that the offical forum was the best place to discuss this kind of in-game issue, if not.... nevermind.
I'll be sure to appear suddenly and complain bitterly the next time some other trivial atrocity leaves me sobbing into my pillow.
Thanks for reading.
"If you cannot see the issue, don't understand the issue or don't think it is an issue, you are 'possibly' part of the problem."
"If you are offended by that statement, you are 'probably' part of the problem."
"If by now, you are raging and spitting blood about either of those statements, you are 'definitely' part of the problem."
translated with Google
A couple of points that need to be made before getting into the actual response.
-First, having green text next to my name or next to the names of my cohorts doesn't protect people from hearing thoughts and opinions from us people may not like. We have just as much right to voice our thoughts, opinions and concerns as everyone else.
-Second, disagreement with someone and criticizing their position and logic does NOT constitute a personal attack. I have not called you any name other than your forum name here, nor have I gone out of my way to insult you personally. In my post above, two things were directed at you specifically when I said "you are not the arbiter of what is sensible and what isn't", and again when I asked why you said "there is nothing wrong with that much DPS" when clearly you don't believe it. The rest is my own thoughts and opinions on the situation as a whole and the lines of logic used which you are free to agree/disagree with.
-Now with obligatory said, on to the actual response. I will be breaking the post apart to address individual sections.
You acknowledge that players are responsible for their actions, which I'm glad to see. At the same time you still insist that somehow people are responsible for the fun of other players. Again neither myself nor anyone else are responsible for your fun in game. If you are not having fun in game, that's a you problem. When I press that random button I have no idea what the other people are going to be like when I get in there. I might get a group of people that think and play exactly like I do, and I might not. There is no way for me to account for every possible scenario that could happen. I would need to be Dr Strange with the Time Stone or a higher level being like a Q that could see into the future to do that. Even then why should I or anyone else have to hamstring our builds because we MIGHT get people who don't like it? Why should that be my responsibility?
So first thing on this that you need to understand, simply because someone disagrees with you does NOT mean they can't "understand the complexities of the issue" or what have you. It simply means they disagree with you.
To give a bit of background on myself, I have been creating mods for various older games like Star Trek Armada II, Timesplitters Future Perfect along with a host of other older games, and now including Space Engineers as a more modern game, for 20 years now. I have created maps, levels, items, and so on for these games with several of my maps for Timesplitters being EA recommended downloads for weeks at the time. The most recent creation of mine was my Space Engineers 2125 era mod that expands on what the tech of the vanilla game would look like a further 50 years into the future of its timeline and is essentially a complete rebalance of every block in the game. How many components is needed to build them, how much of each resource to make each component, where to get each resource including having added some new ones to the worlds, along with balancing the weapons in said mod, power generation and the like. It took me as a one person project around 8 weeks to get that mod to where I wanted, and that's with recycling some already existing bits. I've since put alot more into that mod. Point being that while I'm not a AAA studio dev, I know what it takes to balance something as I've done it.
Just as you are free to give feedback on things you see as potential issues and voice your thoughts and opinions on them, other people are free to chime in after the fact and say "don't listen to this guy". You don't have to like it when people disagree with you about a particular subject. At the same time you disliking it doesn't negate their right to voice said disagreement.
You speak in vague generalities that you never define and give specifics on, yet you say you don't know how to make it anymore clear. So allow me to assist with this.
In part of your previous post you said the above quotation. Specifically in the line in bold you said "there is nothing wrong with that much power, provided you have somewhere sensible to use it."
So to that point in bold, define for us what you consider to be "somewhere sensible". What is the standard for this?
If I want to play with a friend of mine who just started the game and level match my friend to run some missions with him, why should I not be allowed to bring my best build? If said friend is a fresh 65 and I want to carry him through some random TFOs to get him some marks or what have you, why should I not be allowed to bring a 500k+ build to do that if I want to? So long as I'm no deliberately AFKing people or my friend, what is the issue? The TFOs and events are for everyone, yet you are essentially wanting to exclude certain people from certain events and TFOs based on your arbitrary standard you have yet to define.
And what is the standard for being addressed properly? Again I'm asking you to define this. Clearly you have a standard in mind as to what you consider it being addressed properly or you wouldn't say this. If you want to know why you are getting "opposition to resolving a genuine issue" I will explain.
First, people disagreeing does not mean they misunderstand something. It means they disagree with you as I said before.
The reason you're getting pushback, and rightfully so, is you're coming on here complaining and saying that you don't like that it's possible to get super high DPS and don't like getting grouped with "insta-vape" builds as you called them. Yet instead of simply advocating for additional content for us so called insta-vapers to do (yes please to content), or choosing to group with like minded players so this isn't an issue you could encounter, you instead demand that myself and others be limited and our fun be limited because YOU don't like it.
You say "Each player is responsible for their own actions, and how they choose to effect the people around them.", acknowledging your own personal responsibility, yet are demanding something be done to other people because YOU personally don't like what those other people are doing. You are demanding the game cater to YOUR standard of fun and the fun of others be restricted.
What you're doing is the equivalent of a vegan telling their neighbor they shouldn't be allowed to eat a steak because it offends them. Then when that neighbor tells the vegan to mind their own business as they're just feeding their family, that vegan resorts to the classic "you just hate animals and want them to suffer" card to gaslight the neighbor and try to manipulate them.
In this instance you are coming onto these forums and saying you don't like that some of your fellow players have achieved a certain level of DPS and as a result you want their ability to achieve said DPS removed from them. Just like our hypothetical vegan was trying to take food from their neighbor, you are basically advocating the progress of other players be stolen from them. Then when people push back on it you bust out the "you're not considering other players" card. Yet you really expect me to believe you don't understand why you're getting pushback on this.
I'm sorry but that's disingenuous to the core.
Simply put dude, there is an issue here, but it's not with insta-vape builds, high DPSers or even the low DPSers. The issue is people demanding the progress and ability of others be restricted because they don't like it. THAT is the issue.
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(Emphasis added.)
Good point, and I feel this is too easily ignored.
When designing the content, the developers behind this game made maps with a certain total amount of hitpoints. Say, 100 million total HP. I highly doubt then that it was intended that a single player can 100 million damage in 30 seconds or so. If that was the intention, the total number of HP on the map would likely have been higher.
Saying that other people should simply get good and also deal more damage doesn't make much sense as a solution then.
Now, someone earlier in the thread mentioned that the discussion is kind of pointless without some input from Cryptic itself. I agree with that statement. They should take some responsibility and at the very least inform the playerbase whether it's working as intended that players can reach such high levels of DPS. That's also in those players' interest, because then they can finally know whether new damage balances will be a thing, e.g. whether there's a point to keep improving - or if they're just accelerating the arrival of nerfs.
(Of course, it's unlikely they'll commit to anything or make any sort of official statement because of legal reasons - if that is indeed the case, they certainly deserve to be called out for that.)
Five people are invited to a party with a small number of snacks on the table for a limited time. Some of them elect to finish their drinks prior to eating.
Players entering event maps are usually presented with multiple waves of enemies for a set duration. Nothing any player does on these maps makes much of a difference as the snacks on the table keep refilling themselves.
Players entering advanced difficulty TFO's have a variety of options available in order for them to avoid being labelled as absent, even though this label is very rarely applied. Sipping one's drink prior to eating might not be an option at this level.
I don't think that's the implication at all. I personally think its just a case of players growing faster than the Devs anticipated. And honestly Infected used to have ways to cheese it years ago before we even had T6 and all the power creep we have now.
There was a time that the Gate was not untargetable and only had rediculous regen as long as the Transformers were active. Back then there was the 10% rule of bring the generators down to 10% then nuke them all at once and pound the Transformer before the probes got there. Rince and repeat on the other side. But then people figured out how to cheese it with Tricobalt Mines, enabling enough spike damage to not only overcome the regen, but literally kill the gate BEFORE the Transformers were destroyed. Cryptic's response to that was... not exactly well received as it basically made Tricobalt useless. Decreasing the overall damage, but keeping the "DPS" the same as pre-nerf Tricos. Kinda defeated the purpose of Tricos being spike damage but... it kinda solved that problem. Then we had another issue come up, and I think that eventually led to the current incarnation where the Gate is shielded and untargetable until the Transformers die.
It's not just Infected though. High-powered energy weapons or spore infused anomalies triggering up to 6 times off three or four anomalies each will quickly mean that players run out of HP to target on any map.
And I don't think it's a good theory, the idea that it's just the result of some unforeseen, fast development of players. Power creep is sold and constantly promoted. Not just in the conventional ways like through new OP traits and consoles, but also by adding free bonuses like those from endeavours (which are free both in the sense of not requiring purchase, as well as no sacrifice/choices required) and through upgrade tokens that allow stacking of even more effects and powers.
I mean, I don't know about you guys, but I remember when I had to work to get something like 25% crit chance and 150% critd. Those were numbers I considered high and once achieved, I'd treat the ship as finished (or at least the weapon dealing part of the ship would be considered finished).
Now I have a toon that was created mere weeks ago and her legendary sovereign has 31,5 Crit chance and 199,6 Crit severity - outside of combat. And that's not even the highest I've seen across my toons. And for the record: I didn't even try that hard to achieve these numbers, if I wanted, I could probably easily increase those even further.
Think about it: the crit severity and crit chance on a new toon are now easily and with little effort much higher than what would - a few years ago - have been considered very high on veteran toons with tons of investments having gone into them. And that's just those two stats.
One of the borg STF's. By the time my ship has got to the cubes two ships the size of a shuttle has already reached them, wiped all of them out and have went on to the side and has already taken down half of the conduits. By the time ive managed to get a shot off, literally ONE...SHOT...OFF these little Attack Pattern Credit Card ships have blown everything up.
That was the experience ive had with a Fleet Excelsior running MK12 AP beams with the full assimilated set and it happened several times on my first return to this game 2 weeks ago after a 4 year break. Four of my friends who also decided to come back also experienced this, they stayed for one day, branded the current ST:O "Pay to win gone insane" and quit.
I decided to stick around though and throw some cash at Dil and the exchange to overhaul the current ships i had. The plain fact is though that the massive gap between "normal" damage, and the attack pattern credit card damage is causing people to quit.
I'd be happy to try and help Jon. I had to google elucidate. Keep in mind that I'm not saying that whatever you do for fun is wrong, just that it may not be the best option for the particular advanced TFO map that has been known to go a little quickly for some players tastes. Your own unique sense of canon is always right, until it results in a penalty. At that point the first thing I'd suggest is to use the loadout system, thusly..
By separating your "canon fun" and doing "more damage", both can be preserved. Now it's possible to do normal difficulty TFO's, missions, and events using your canon fun loadout and then switch to something different when on that particular advanced map to avoid penalties. Lots of the uberdeepz players use different loadouts for different maps so why not follow their lead ?
With that out of the way let's explore what to do differently in order to avoid receiving a penalty.
That is it! (well almost) Since the absent penalty is based on doing less than about two percent of a team's damage, being more mobile makes a huge difference as all that's really needed is to get some shots in. The conn officer gives you the ability to reset evasive maneuvers by using EPtE and the deuterium surplus is yet another opportunity at getting where you need to go, quickly, to get more shots in.
Since you've mentioned a few specific things about one of your builds previously I'll add a couple more things to try in order to do more damage..
When on advanced "eat first and then sip your drink"
The Fleet Excelsior is one of my favorite ships.
In addition to the things mentioned above, you may want to try some Competitive reputation engines.
Here's a video link that talks about things players do to get themselves around a map. Starting about 27:10 is some tips specific to Infected Space. Having somebody take the time to go through this step by step is a beautiful thing.
These days it's not always possible to do much in the way of damage without mobility.
I don't always get it right but having a few tools and techniques available really seems to help.
Pay2Win... what? There is nothing to win! Its Pay2HaveNow. There is no win in STO as no one is competing! Its not like in Elite Dangerous or Eve where you put real money in and get a significant advantage. Hell... its possible to get shiny without paying a dime when you got patience and lots of Dilithium. I literally ground out many large bundles including the 10th Anniversary Legendary Bundle! How is it P2W when someone like me can literally grind it out and have access to it?
I can never understand the P2W argument with STO because... win WHAT?
Tricobalts due to the nerfs are the only weapon system you cannot really build a theme around. There is no benefit in running Tricobalts they are worse then every other weapon system in every way. With the exception possibly of 1 single Tricobalt mine.
Why are you only using MK XII's!? It's cheap as chips to upgrade these days, don't turn your nose up at it. Get your stuff upgraded to MK XV as soon as,; use your Dil to buy phoenix upgrades. It doesn't have to be Epic, but even at MK XV the performance gain is considerably greater.
There is zero P2W in STO....absolutely nothing to 'win'. You don't compete against anyone except in Competivitive TFO's and direct PvP. You can't have your stuff destroyed, you can't have your resources stolen, you can't be forced into PvP, you're not having to keep gambling on packs trying to acquire 20 copies of a Boff, or hundreds of copies of a ship to upgrade and so on, and so forth. Saying this game is P2W is a lazy excuse, sorry.
By the logic I've seen people use in this thread who share your viewpoint, it's perfectly acceptable and fine for them to demand the game be altered for everyone across the board to suit their non-dps chasing playstyle because they don't like that people can do damage above a certain threshold as they fell it gives out too many AFK penalties. Yet if someone like myself pushes back and says they need to alter their build and/or tactics to avoid an AFK penalty, suddenly in their book I'm gatekeeping and "not considering my fellow player". In other words it's okay for them to demand my gameplay be altered to suit them, but how dare I use that same kind of logic and demand them change what they're doing.
I am not responsible for your build and your knowledge of the game anymore than you are responsible for mine. If someone who is brand new to the game comes into a TFO with subpar build and/or tactics and they receive an AFK penalty as a result of not being ready for the content, that's not my problem. I am not a mind reader and I have no way of knowing if that person next to me in that TFO has been playing for only a week, or has been playing since closed beta.
Have you ever stopped to think that if someone is consistently getting an AFK penalty that maybe, just maybe they're the problem and not the game or other players? I know it's almost blasphemy to even suggest such a thing. The definition of insanity is doing the exact same thing again and again expecting different results.
If you or anyone else are going to insist that myself or others should "be considerate of other players" and alter my build so as to "give everyone a chance to participate", why can I not demand YOU change YOUR build so you can participate easier? Why should I or anyone else have to alter our playstyle or our builds? When people demand the game be altered for myself and others due to their dislike of "insta vape" and demand that I alter my build to suit them, yet get mad at me for suggesting they be the ones to change THEIR build or tactics so they can participate better, I'm sorry but that's absolute hypocrisy in my book.
If you're going to apply your own logic equally, if folks can demand I change my build, I can demand they change theirs. You don't get to have it both ways.
Your analogy is a loaded question as first and foremost you're assuming that if someone eats more than another person does, it equates to malice. Or in this case, if someone goes into a TFO with a build that's just leagues ahead of another person in damage, they are trying to be malicious to that person. You can make that argument if you want, but you bear the burden of proof to demonstrate maliciousness, and you haven't presented any credible evidence of this.
With that said, let's take the torpedoes out of that analogy of yours and try again. Let's suppose that tomorrow we found out CBS was going to release a new Enterprise F mini-figure to certain stores. Let's suppose a local store has 2 of the figures left and I grab both of those figures with the intent of buying one for myself, and the second for a friend. Let's also suppose that right after I've paid for the figures, another person comes into the store and finds out I just bought the last 2 the store had. This person then offers to buy the second one from me, but I refuse to sell it to them because I am giving the second one to my friend. Tell me, am I wrong for refusing to give that person the second figure? If you believe that I would be wrong in that situation, why would I be wrong? And be specific.
Your food analogy ignores several key factors. The first of which is those people arriving at the same time as each other, and each of the 5 people having the same access to the food. If the first 4 people go ahead and eat while the 5th guy stands around talking to people at the party and the 5th guy misses out on food, that is purely the 5th guy's fault as he deliberately chose not to eat while the food was still available.
I'll give another example using my previous mini-figure example. Let's suppose that this local shop gets 50 of them in stock. Instead of going early when the shop still has it's full stock, the guy waits until right when the shop is about to close and he misses out on those last 2 figures because I got there first, who is at fault, me for buying both, or him for waiting too late?
We can debate what's intentional and what isn't but so long as beating a map in 30 seconds or less doesn't violate terms of service, it's ultimately irrelevant. If you or someone else goes into a run with a ship that moves at the speed of smell, and get a team of people in much faster ships that kill everything before that person in the slower ship can even get there, how is it the fault of the people with the faster ships that the 5th guy deliberately chose a much slower ship?
What you're failing to realize is that again, all players who meet the minimum standards set forth by the game itself for a TFO have a right to be in there, dps chaser and non-dps chaser alike. If the non-chasers are going into an area they are likely to encounter dps chasers, they bear the responsibility for planning accordingly. If the non-chaser doesn't plan accordingly and gets an AFK penalty as a result, it's like knowing it might rain but refusing to pack an umbrella then getting mad at the weather guy you get wet.
When it comes to an AFK penalty, to even get one you need to have done less than 1%-2% of the damage for the entirety of the run. Take ISA for example. The last time I went into an ISA the team did a total of around 45m damage over the totality of the run which was around 73 seconds. I don't know what the actual total amount of health is for everything in that TFO, but let's say for argument sake it's 45m. In order for a person to avoid the AFK penalty, this means they would need to deal 450k damage over the totality of the run, which is 1% of 45m. Assuming this person was in the 73 second run with me and the others I was with, this person would've needed to do 6200 DPS. If we assume a slower run of 2 minutes and 30 seconds, which used to be the average for ISA way back when, this lowers the total DPS required to 3k. The longer the run, the lower the overall damage output required.
A basic cohesive ship using only the free mk xii very rare gear you get from missions can get there in around 2 firing cycles using 7 beams and a torpedo while under the effects of Emergency Power to Weapons, Attack Pattern Beta, FAW, and Torpedo Spread. Anything else is gravy. I don't see what's so unreasonable about expecting your teammates to at least 1% of the damage.
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Please stop this hostile interrogation of everyone, and everything that is being said. This is not suitable behavior for a Community Moderator. Green tag or not, please behave yourself.
I'm struggling to see where your relentless disagreement with every opinion fits into this discussion. You are way off the mark, have missed the point entirely, and still don't seem to understand the subject matter of the Original Post.
If you do not like this conversation or the subject matter, then i respectfully suggest that you consider finding a conversation that you do like, and engage with that instead.
Frankly, i'm shocked that this level of hostile aggression is allowed to run unchecked on the "Official Star Trek Online Forum."
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Please go ahead and close this thread, it is far beyond redemption at this point.
Sorry for the trouble.
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