People play TFOs mainly to generate marks, marks are used to fuel the projects. If you don't need to do projects, you don't need marks and there is other content to play. It's not even about the gear and traits, but to prepare one for the advanced content, by making him play normal content first. He presented this idea very clearly and there is strong logic behind it. Sadly you and the OP see only your ludicrous solution of damage capping and some kind of reserved gameplay, if one is presented with a team of slow players in a random tfo.
Let's close this one, it's going nowhere.
Some people accumulate marks after maxing reps not to get gear but to eventually turn them in for more dil. Unlike some I don't generate tons of dil all the time and I do use it to buy zen, even if I have to wait for it, simply because I have no funds to buy it with otherwise.
It's not always about the projects.
Now a LTS and loving it.
Just because you spend money on this game, it does not entitle you to be a jerk if things don't go your way.
I have come to the conclusion that I have a memory like Etch-A-Sketch. I shake my head and forget everything.
Fyi you get 2x more dil out of your marks, if you do the daily (later hourly) 340 dil projects, instead of turning them in straight away. Also like i've said, it's not about the projects at all, but about the skill people would acumulate during the process.
So having read more comments on why people choose to play the way they play, i'll propose a few rhetorical questions.
-How much DPS does a player need to be able to play the game ?
-How much DPS is enough DPS ?
-Is it truly necessary to be able to solo group content ?
If folks want to be able to do the maximum DPS that is able to be done within the games mechanics, then would it be possible to add content with the specific purpose of reaching and testing maximum DPS, without the need to interfere with regular gameplay ?. (Not talking about difficulty levels)
Surely there's a way for the people who wish to be able to obliterate everything instantly, or quicker, to be able to do so without disrupting the game for everyone else. I understand the DPS Min/Max crew is only a small part of the community, but they are certainly committed to their way of playing.
I don't chase maximum DPS, i just achieve enough to play efficiently. So i have no idea what The DPS crew might want as far as DPS specific content goes. Perhaps someone more DPS minded can suggest some possible options.
So having read more comments on why people choose to play the way they play, i'll propose a few questions.
-How much DPS does a player need to be able to play the game ?
-How much DPS is enough DPS ?
Aprox 120k per player so 600k for the group give or take 50k to do Elite content. Many players aim for 200k to 300k so they have enough that the TFO wont fail if one of the group members is underperforming. Loosely speaking I would say 550k to 600k for the entire group is enough to play at Elite level. This is generalised as the number changes map to map. As for how much is enough that's a tricky question.
Some people have the mind set of 600k+ so they can pass all content no matter how terrible the rest of the group is. Some people get fun out of optimization and so can go way over 600k. Myself personally I like to be in the 200k to 300k range minimum when joining random people which I find is enough to cover that 1 or 2 members of the group doing under 120k. When with friends I am happy to go down to 120k as I know that's enough. If I go below 120k then I feel I am not contributing enough, not contributing my fair share.
So having read more comments on why people choose to play the way they play, i'll propose a few questions.
-How much DPS does a player need to be able to play the game ?
-How much DPS is enough DPS ?
-Is it truly necessary to be able to solo group content ?
If folks want to be able to do the maximum DPS that is able to be done within the games mechanics, then would it be possible to add content with the specific purpose of reaching and testing maximum DPS, without the need to interfere with regular gameplay ?. (Not talking about difficulty levels)
Surely there's a way for the people who wish to be able to obliterate everything instantly, or quicker, to be able to do so without disrupting the game for everyone else. I understand the DPS Min/Max crew is only a small part of the community, but they are certainly committed to their way of playing.
I don't chase maximum DPS, i just achieve enough to play efficiently. So i have no idea what The DPS crew might want as far as DPS specific content goes. Perhaps someone more DPS minded can suggest some possible options.
1. It was suggested by a Dev a year or so ago that around 12k should suffice to play episodes at level 65, and it might suffice for Adv, but 20k should see you cope well in them all. The problem with people using ISA as the barometer is that your DPS is highly likely to be seriously boosted by those in your team, especially in pre-made. Team synergies really distort your output. Heck, even a well placed GW build has 100% uptime, so it's hard to get a 'pure' DPS unless you specially can measure vs 1 enemy.
2. As in 1, it's 20k to be comfortable, 50k is a boon.
3. Not necessarily, but I have no issue carrying an underpowered/under-knowledged team. Every little helps. I know my Sci toon can solo ISA with all objectives met, mostly because it's a high-powered Control/Drain/Exotic build for my Sci ships. The build wouldn't be as effective in other ships because it relies on the Secondary Deflector to cause a ton of extra damage amongst other things.
A lot of what helps is being able to use Gravity Well to pull enemies in for secondary warp core explosion damage, with the exception of the Tzenkethi who are specially resistant to the tactic. Alot of folk also use Beam or cannon only builds, which can one-shot alot of weaker enemies. It's all about going really narrow in focus on your build. I know a few would have a fit because I run beams and torps, but I've made my build focus on the strengths of each weapon. Because I have a high drain build the quantum phase torp evaporates shields, leaving my rear dark matter torp proc to hit harder, whilst my phasers are taking down any remaining shield before they hit. I like being my own person with my own build I worked on. It may not hit the obscene heights of DPS chasers, but it works a treat.
"You don't want to patrol!? You don't want to escort!? You don't want to defend the Federation's Starbases!? Then why are you flying my Starships!? If you were a Klingon you'd be killed on the spot, but lucky for you.....you WERE in Starfleet. Let's see how New Zealand Penal Colony suits you." Adm A. Necheyev.
0
rattler2Member, Star Trek Online ModeratorPosts: 58,396Community Moderator
In my opinion... starting around lv 50 I'd say shooting for at least 10-15k DPS will get you comfortable to complete most content. Which is pretty easy with the right combination of damage consoles, weapons, and BOff abilities. And easily done with basic Mk XII gear. Blue at least, but preferably Purple. Even something as simple as slotting AP Beta could improve damage output. But by the time you hit 50 is about the time you should start synergizing your build as you're less likely to be changing gear every 10 levels. I still have characters at 65 running mk XII purple gear and doing alright for the content I play. If I happen to get upgrades that's great. But having synergized mk XII Purple gear and a decent build... should be more than enough for the average player to be comfortable in most content up to Advanced.
Thank you for your very precise and accurate DPS metrics, it's appreciated. But maybe i should Be more precise with my wording, those DPS question were more rhetorical in nature, as most of my questions have been so far. (i'll edit that post for others)
For instance, without getting too technical, is there a point in the DPS race where there is too much for regular gameplay ?.
I understand the reason why players enjoy pushing the boundaries of what's possible. But at what point does it become overkill ?
At what point does it become impractical to manage without overtly getting in the way of the average player ?.
A good grav well has many practical uses in many different scenarios, it add to and benefits gameplay in a positive way. Grav wells are a regular part of my playstyle, but i try not to use them unless i need to.
And referring to a much earlier comment, It's been said that some instances benefit from having someone there to clear the map of hostiles because the team are not up to the task of doing so themselves without failing the instance. Nobody is going learn how to play the instance if someone is there to do it all for them. It only teaches them to expect and rely on having someone to clear the map for them.
ps:Back in the days when TFO's were called STF's, there were no super overpowered DPS players around. If you failed a map, you failed it, no big deal. You learned how the game mechanics worked and you tried harder next time. Whether in a pre-built team or in a public queue, it did'nt matter.
You learned from your mistakes and sometimes the mistakes of others, and you went in and had another go until you got it down enough to win the scenario. That was where the fun was at. As for the equipment side of things, you learned that as you progressed through the story lines and other low level content.
Considering how much elite and high difficulty content there is in the game, yet it barely gets used at all, i'm prone to wonder if maybe a small number of high DPS players are sweeping through low and medium level content out of frustration, or worse, deliberately. Just guessing here, i can't speak for the motivations of others, but it's not unheard of.
In the first place, if DPS is allowed to get excessive (and it is), it trivialized much of the content.
In order to challenge such players, the developers NEED to increase the difficulty of the content to ever more absurd levels. This means that players with more average builds frequently CANNOT do such content, even though they're frequently thrust into it.
For example, I've been put into that Gravity Kills mission (the annoying one with the Tzenkethi) many times. My weapons simply cannot hurt them. Frequently, my shots are doing only 1-2 points of damage. I once got into a battle with ONE Tzenkethi cruiser, and I spent an HOUR trying to hurt it, and flatly could not. Of course, he couldn't really kill me either, but the issue is still the same. Now, I wouldn't claim to have anywhere near high dps, but I'd have to guess it's at least average, considering the advice I've received over the years.
Now, there are two ways this can go. You can make it easier to get more DPS, so everyone is instantly wiping everything out, but I don't see that as a solution. You don't want things to be too easy. The alternative is to scale back the top end, so it's not necessary to make absurdly difficult content. This means everyone should be able to do all the content, and should be reasonably challenged by all the content. This is why I think this is a better direction to take.
I've made a similar argument over at ESO. I don't WANT higher DPS, because I don't want to trivialize 90% of the game. That means there's content I flat out CANNOT do. It's the same thing here. I think it's bad design, developers must always seek to maintain game balance for the game to be healthy.
I can relate to this directly.
The Tzenkethi are one of the many enemy types that require you too think about the appropriate strategy and equipment to deal with them effectively. I threw what i had at them until i discovered what did and did'nt work against them, it took time but that's the whole point, because it was fun to find out.
Eventually if enough DPS is thrown around, then it bypasses those mechanics completely. If the target is instakilled, the opportunity to learn and utilize the gameplay tactics is now gone. I have specific builds for specific enemies, purely for the gameplay. That is part of the buildcraft that existed before instakills became a thing.
As for ESO. yeah, there is quite a lot of content that is out of my reach for those same reasons
You're nodding to guy, who can't destroy a tzenkheti cruiser after years of gameplay and calls it a problem . I knew this was a troll thread, I KNEW IT.
colonelmarik do you need help to git gud? I can throw together a f2p build, for which you will have to play a month and you'll end up doing more damage, than this ryokel guy ever did.
The game is NOT the problem here!
0
rattler2Member, Star Trek Online ModeratorPosts: 58,396Community Moderator
I've already told y'all more than once to stop going at each other.
Star Trek Online Volunteer Community Moderator and Resident She-Wolf
Community Moderators are Unpaid Volunteers and NOT Employees of Gearbox/Cryptic
Views and Opinions May Not Reflect the Views and Opinions of Gearbox/Cryptic
To be fair, it's not marik whom I called a troll, but the OP. That's good for marik, btw, but then, why did he bring it up here? If his build is so specific in style, that it can't handle the content, is it really the games "problem"?
Cause i've seen he used the "problem" word. We don't have a problem.
And yeah i admit, i got carried away a bit, obviously . But this whole topic is still ridiculous.
This does not work for a variety of reasons. First, why would you assume that people who have never completed an Omega rep project are incapable of advanced or elite content?
For that matter, as I was trying to point out, having completed an Omega rep project doesn't indicate you are capable of Advanced or Elite content. All you need is time, Reputation (which is all you get as account rewards if you have a Gamma recruit anyway), and the patience for all that clicking. That's how I got up to Tier 6 on everything except Competitive on my main - I did that mostly so I can do that flashy "show all your badges" thing at ESD and Drozana (feels too crowded to do that at DS9). I mean, I'll take the Grace Hopper into an Advanced TFO if folks I'm hanging with insist, but in Elite, I'd just be a drag on them, because I didn't "earn" those Rep points by running TFOs and gearing myself appropriately. (Might take the Lorna Wing too, but that's probably an even worse idea. I love my Yorktown-class, but she has her limitations.)
Like a bunch of people yelling at the ocean to stop making waves.
It's just an inevitability. Even this conversation is reductive and can't be constructive. All it can do is build animosity when everyone is like children angry that they have to grow into adults.
A company ill do whatever it can to make money, and their target audience is the ones that can give them said money. So being upset about it is just reductive. Without the company you have no game; unless your ideal outcome is to not have a game. The moment it became free to play and no longer subscription modeled then this was an inevitable outcome. Getting angry over it is just strange.
And the strangest part of it all is... the interaction is only 5-10 minutes of your day. You guys really want to build animosity and disgust for each other over 10 minutes of your day arguing over an inevitability built by the company owners?
Some people have and some people don't. It is absolutely not a skill factor. Because no matter how skilled you are, you are limited by your output. You can't overcome power with skill. So i'm not sure why people believe power is a skill. Or that skill can overcome power. It can't. It won't.
So personally the overall value of this conversation to me seems to be a construct to vent a little. But you really cant have a public struggle session because it will brush up against others that take offense to it.
No matter how i see it, you cant fix this, the toothpaste is already out the tube. The devs knew this would be the case and told the owners and the owners weighed it and considered this to be worth the outcome.
This conversation can't be had on the forum because no matter how you look at it, you are asking the game to take from someone else so that you can be happy but you are saying its for the community, its not. Its for you. Specifically. All you can do really is take it for what it is. A small blip in your day and move on.
And the strangest part of it all is... the interaction is only 5-10 minutes of your day. You guys really want to build animosity and disgust for each other over 10 minutes of your day arguing over an inevitability built by the company owners?
But its not just 10 minutes a day. I lost 1 hour 30mins due to the powercreep problem while running the current event. That's 1 hour 30mins I would not have lost if the devs allowed us to run Elite version of the event like they used to.
Powercreep has been happening for years but its only in the past 6 months or so that I noticed its starting to have a negative impact on players and I experienced it myself. Forcing players down to normal with the current level of power creep is causing problems.
Like a bunch of people yelling at the ocean to stop making waves.
It's just an inevitability. Even this conversation is reductive and can't be constructive. All it can do is build animosity when everyone is like children angry that they have to grow into adults.
A company ill do whatever it can to make money, and their target audience is the ones that can give them said money. So being upset about it is just reductive. Without the company you have no game; unless your ideal outcome is to not have a game. The moment it became free to play and no longer subscription modeled then this was an inevitable outcome. Getting angry over it is just strange.
And the strangest part of it all is... the interaction is only 5-10 minutes of your day. You guys really want to build animosity and disgust for each other over 10 minutes of your day arguing over an inevitability built by the company owners?
Some people have and some people don't. It is absolutely not a skill factor. Because no matter how skilled you are, you are limited by your output. You can't overcome power with skill. So i'm not sure why people believe power is a skill. Or that skill can overcome power. It can't. It won't.
So personally the overall value of this conversation to me seems to be a construct to vent a little. But you really cant have a public struggle session because it will brush up against others that take offense to it.
No matter how i see it, you cant fix this, the toothpaste is already out the tube. The devs knew this would be the case and told the owners and the owners weighed it and considered this to be worth the outcome.
This conversation can't be had on the forum because no matter how you look at it, you are asking the game to take from someone else so that you can be happy but you are saying its for the community, its not. Its for you. Specifically. All you can do really is take it for what it is. A small blip in your day and move on.
Yes, i agree completely.
As long as these issues are discussed solely by the players, it will never be resolved, simply because we are not in a position to implement any changes.
But, i started this thread, here on the official forums as a reminder to anyone who can make the necessary changes that this is still a relevant issue. Because that's what official forums are for, at least they used to be.
However, having said that, power creep in itself is not my real concern, it is after all inevitable to a certain degree.
The part of the power creep issue that stands out plainly is the available DPS ceiling.
The maximum available DPS that any player can achieve using the legitimate game mechanics, and the fact that it is spilling out of the Elite content that is designed to handle it, and into rest of the game where it is way too much DPS for the current content, and the average player who exists there.
There is no reason for high level players to use that much DPS in regular content. We have ship slots, loadouts and alt characters to build with, pulling the content out from under the average player is unnecessary, at best.
There is no reason for high level players to use that much DPS in regular content. We have ship slots, loadouts and alt characters to build with, pulling the content out from under the average player is unnecessary, at best.
This is the only reason for this thread.
You say no reason for high level players to use that much DPS in regular content. But its not like we have an option. We cannot turn off lots of the major DPS buffs and power creep that we have unlocked over the years. A lot of it is permanently on once unlocked. That's why I play Elite but the event is forcing us down to normal where I have no choice but to take a completely over powered ship into the content.
We used to be able to do events on Elite maps, I have no idea what the reason was for stopping this. All I can say is I find forcing everyone into normal has ruined events.
There is no reason for high level players to use that much DPS in regular content. We have ship slots, loadouts and alt characters to build with, pulling the content out from under the average player is unnecessary, at best.
This is the only reason for this thread.
You say no reason for high level players to use that much DPS in regular content. But its not like we have an option. We cannot turn off lots of the major DPS buffs and power creep that we have unlocked over the years. A lot of it is permanently on once unlocked. That's why I play Elite but the event is forcing us down to normal where I have no choice but to take a completely over powered ship into the content.
We used to be able to do events on Elite maps, I have no idea what the reason was for stopping this. All I can say is I find forcing everyone into normal has ruined events.
Well, yes. I agree with you.
Having the events set up like that is unfortunate and unavoidable. Even advanced level players will still be blasting through normal level content.
It's the Advanced level TFO's and Battlezones that are most affected by rampant DPS spillage. There really isn't anywhere outside of Elite TFO's and maybe PVP arenas for those high level players to go. Also unfortunate and currently unavoidable.
However, as to the built in DPS buffs and power creep that we build into our main characters. That can be worked around by creating alt characters, or our main characters can have other lower tier ships using lower level gear to compensate for the dps overspill.
I did mention previously that i have lower level ships set up specifically for just that purpose, mainly because Elite tier content is not as popular as it could be. So i have taken it upon myself to limit my own output to compensate for the 11 years worth of gear, buffs and traits that i have collected. I feel that i have more than enough options available to me so that i don't step on anyone elses fun.
I hope this helps to clear up my motivations and reasoning.
And as long as the people who are able to make changes, are made aware of any potential issues, that's really all that matters.
If they are'nt informed or reminded by the actively playing community, then it may never be addressed, if it is at all possible to be addressed.
ps; And as a quick side note, do recall some folks regularly running as a pre-built team, taking t1 connies and oberths into STF's just purely for challenge and some giggles.
There is no reason for high level players to use that much DPS in regular content. We have ship slots, loadouts and alt characters to build with, pulling the content out from under the average player is unnecessary, at best.
This is the only reason for this thread.
You say no reason for high level players to use that much DPS in regular content. But its not like we have an option. We cannot turn off lots of the major DPS buffs and power creep that we have unlocked over the years. A lot of it is permanently on once unlocked. That's why I play Elite but the event is forcing us down to normal where I have no choice but to take a completely over powered ship into the content.
We used to be able to do events on Elite maps, I have no idea what the reason was for stopping this. All I can say is I find forcing everyone into normal has ruined events.
Well, yes. I agree with you.
Having the events set up like that is unfortunate and unavoidable. Even advanced level players will still be blasting through normal level content.
It's the Advanced level TFO's and Battlezones that are most affected by rampant DPS spillage. There really isn't anywhere outside of Elite TFO's and maybe PVP arenas for those high level players to go. Also unfortunate and currently unavoidable.
However, as to the built in DPS buffs and power creep that we build into our main characters. That can be worked around by creating alt characters, or our main characters can have other lower tier ships using lower level gear to compensate for the dps overspill.
I did mention previously that i have lower level ships set up specifically for just that purpose, mainly because Elite tier content is not as popular as it could be. So i have taken it upon myself to limit my own output to compensate for the 11 years worth of gear, buffs and traits that i have collected. I feel that i have more than enough options available to me so that i don't step on anyone elses fun.
I hope this helps to clear up my motivations and reasoning.
And as long as the people who are able to make changes, are made aware of any potential issues, that's really all that matters.
If they are'nt informed or reminded by the actively playing community, then it may never be addressed, if it is at all possible to be addressed.
Not sure asking players onto alts is a workable solution. First of all my investment is into my main toon. I know we are all different but I am one of those people who like to focus on 1 toon only and have no interested in secondary toons. Additionally don't my unlocked buffs activate automatically on secondary toons? Things like 12.5% Crit chance, 50% crit damage, 50% weapon damage and all the others forced on for veteran players and even swapping toons wont remove them.
As for limiting ourselves I already do that to an extent and its not really having any impact. My main is flying Carriers, 3/3 carriers at that and for main weapons I run a Tricobalt boat. Most would consider these two of the weakest options in game yet I am still way beyond the requirements for normal even with the extra step which I have done of removing the popular fleet tactical consoles that boost crit chance or damage.
I can only strip back so far before ruining my own fun and even if I strip back to a base ship with base gear I am going to be doing triple the DPS of what I used to do when I started the game. Anyway Stripping back any further will make it feel like what is the point in playing. I don't see asking players to strip back or change setups as a useful solution to the problem. There has to be a better solution.
Well, everyone has valid arguments as to why the suggestions i came up with would only partially work or not work at all. Good points. Let me tell you what has happened over the past two weeks of me coming back.
Two weeks ago i said to some old alliance friends that i was coming back to STO, four of them decided to also pop in after a 4 year break.
Out of the 4 who came back, all of them quit within the space of 2 days after seeing the massive disparity between them and the new higher DPS ranges. Two of them spent hundreds, if not thousands of UK £'s on this game in the past. That's two whales that said "Nope" and walked away within 48 hours.
As for myself, i found a good alliance fleet recently, i have never really been a DPS chaser either, i just want a ship good enough to manage the advanced TFO randoms.
Is the disparity causing a major problem? No, not really if you look at it from Joe Blogs "Casual Gamer" perspective, sure, sometimes he might be accidentally AFK'ed cause he cant get a shot off in a TFO, but that's about it. However being an ex dev i recall the one single word which terrorises game developers and publishers. Entropy.
ST:O is 13 years old. Entropy is around the corner, the decline in numbers which needs two things to stop it, and one of those things is ex players returning...especially ex whale players who spend cash that goes into Cryptics coffers. If what i have seen with those 4 old friends is anything to go by, Cryptic have a problem which is now approaching, and if i was at Cryptic's studios right now, i would be worried about what happens 2 to 3 years from now.
"You know when that shark bites, with its teeth dear... scarlet billows start to spread..."
Not sure asking players onto alts is a workable solution. First of all my investment is into my main toon. I know we are all different but I am one of those people who like to focus on 1 toon only and have no interested in secondary toons. Additionally don't my unlocked buffs activate automatically on secondary toons? Things like 12.5% Crit chance, 50% crit damage, 50% weapon damage and all the others forced on for veteran players and even swapping toons wont remove them.
As for limiting ourselves I already do that to an extent and its not really having any impact. My main is flying Carriers, 3/3 carriers at that and for main weapons I run a Tricobalt boat. Most would consider these two of the weakest options in game yet I am still way beyond the requirements for normal even with the extra step which I have done of removing the popular fleet tactical consoles that boost crit chance or damage.
I can only strip back so far before ruining my own fun and even if I strip back to a base ship with base gear I am going to be doing triple the DPS of what I used to do when I started the game. Anyway Stripping back any further will make it feel like what is the point in playing. I don't see asking players to strip back or change setups as a useful solution to the problem. There has to be a better solution.
Yes, again i agree with you.
There are limits to what a person can and will do to be able to enjoy a game.
Until a developer made solution is implemented, it really all boils down to player choice. what they are able to do verses what they want to do, and the grey areas in between.
There will always be power creep, there will always be people seeking to push the boundaries of what is possible, and also what is acceptable. That is the individuals choice to make.
And i try to keep reminding myself that not everyone has the time or resources to make a bunch of different characters with ships and equipment to suit.
Well, everyone has valid arguments as to why the suggestions i came up with would only partially work or not work at all. Good points. Let me tell you what has happened over the past two weeks of me coming back.
Two weeks ago i said to some old alliance friends that i was coming back to STO, four of them decided to also pop in after a 4 year break.
Out of the 4 who came back, all of them quit within the space of 2 days after seeing the massive disparity between them and the new higher DPS ranges. Two of them spent hundreds, if not thousands of UK £'s on this game in the past. That's two whales that said "Nope" and walked away within 48 hours.
As for myself, i found a good alliance fleet recently, i have never really been a DPS chaser either, i just want a ship good enough to manage the advanced TFO randoms.
Is the disparity causing a major problem? No, not really if you look at it from Joe Blogs "Casual Gamer" perspective, sure, sometimes he might be accidentally AFK'ed cause he cant get a shot off in a TFO, but that's about it. However being an ex dev i recall the one single word which terrorises game developers and publishers. Entropy.
ST:O is 13 years old. Entropy is around the corner, the decline in numbers which needs two things to stop it, and one of those things is ex players returning...especially ex whale players who spend cash that goes into Cryptics coffers. If what i have seen with those 4 old friends is anything to go by, Cryptic have a problem which is now approaching, and if i was at Cryptic's studios right now, i would be worried about what happens 2 to 3 years from now.
I had a few discussions with past fleet mates that read alot like this, also one of the catalysts for this long winded discussion.
I don't expect it to make a difference. I don't even know if it's possible to fix, but it does'nt hurt to try, or ask.
There is no reason for high level players to use that much DPS in regular content. We have ship slots, loadouts and alt characters to build with, pulling the content out from under the average player is unnecessary, at best.
This is the only reason for this thread.
You say no reason for high level players to use that much DPS in regular content. But its not like we have an option. We cannot turn off lots of the major DPS buffs and power creep that we have unlocked over the years. A lot of it is permanently on once unlocked. That's why I play Elite but the event is forcing us down to normal where I have no choice but to take a completely over powered ship into the content.
We used to be able to do events on Elite maps, I have no idea what the reason was for stopping this. All I can say is I find forcing everyone into normal has ruined events.
Thanks for mentioning this. Being on a normal difficulty map for events has presented issues the past while both on the ground and in space.
Things haven't enough hit points at this level which can make playing without disturbing others challenging.
Yeah and I suspect most high level DPS players don't want to build a ship purposely built to be as bad and unusable as possible to nerf all those traits and bonuses they've gotten just for the event that is. For a challenge of "Make this unviable build work" they might but not just for the event and quite frankly I don't blame them either.
Yeah and I suspect most high level DPS players don't want to build a ship purposely built to be as bad and unusable as possible to nerf all those traits and bonuses they've gotten just for the event that is. For a challenge of "Make this unviable build work" they might but not just for the event and quite frankly I don't blame them either.
"Making an unviable build work" is about the same as saying "make something not capable of working successfully work successfully."
I don't think I'd want to make my bicycle or lawnmower or laptop "as bad and unusable as possible" so this makes little sense to me.
"As bad and unusable as possible" =/= "not minmaxed to the gills in order to pump out the highest possible DPS".
Try to keep in mind that many players, myself included, aren't necessarily "minmaxed to the gills in order to pump out the highest possible dps" nor are we necessarily elite level or dps players.
Also, there are many of us that really haven't much in the way of traits / consoles / bonuses / endeavor rank to be nerfed.
Everybody has the option to use things that all players have access to in ways that can be successful.
Yeah and I suspect most high level DPS players don't want to build a ship purposely built to be as bad and unusable as possible to nerf all those traits and bonuses they've gotten just for the event that is. For a challenge of "Make this unviable build work" they might but not just for the event and quite frankly I don't blame them either.
"Making an unviable build work" is about the same as saying "make something not capable of working successfully work successfully."
I don't think I'd want to make my bicycle or lawnmower or laptop "as bad and unusable as possible" so this makes little sense to me.
"As bad and unusable as possible" =/= "not minmaxed to the gills in order to pump out the highest possible DPS".
Try to keep in mind that many players, myself included, aren't necessarily "minmaxed to the gills in order to pump out the highest possible dps" nor are we necessarily elite level or dps players.
Also, there are many of us that really haven't much in the way of traits / consoles / bonuses / endeavor rank to be nerfed.
Everybody has the option to use things that all players have access to in ways that can be successful.
Prot, if you're instakilling everything on the map before "lesser" ships can even move, you're minmaxed to the gills and might want to consider having a secondary, less minmaxed build available for Event TFOs. You can fly more than one ship, you know.
(And since this seems to need to be said lately: If you're not instakilling everything on the map, this clearly isn't about you. As someone I respect is fond of saying, "If it don't apply, let it fly.")
There is no reason for high level players to use that much DPS in regular content.
Sure there are. Limited playtime being one. Sometimes you only have a few minutes to play and need some quick marks or complete an endeavor. I am certain others can contribute a whole host of valid reasons beyond what has already been shared in the thread.
I do not think you will ever be able to eliminate high DPS players in normal or advanced RTFOs, nor do I think that should be a goal. More challenging content with the right level of incentive to play it is a better option in my opinion.
Yes, you are correct.
However, i was referring to the "instakill" levels of DPS. There may be uses for it in some situations. But not all, and certainly not in inappropriate situations like lower level group content and public access arenas.
As for the comment itself, it has now been taken out of context by multiple quotes. Here's the entire quote, in context.
Like a bunch of people yelling at the ocean to stop making waves.
It's just an inevitability. Even this conversation is reductive and can't be constructive. All it can do is build animosity when everyone is like children angry that they have to grow into adults.
A company ill do whatever it can to make money, and their target audience is the ones that can give them said money. So being upset about it is just reductive. Without the company you have no game; unless your ideal outcome is to not have a game. The moment it became free to play and no longer subscription modeled then this was an inevitable outcome. Getting angry over it is just strange.
And the strangest part of it all is... the interaction is only 5-10 minutes of your day. You guys really want to build animosity and disgust for each other over 10 minutes of your day arguing over an inevitability built by the company owners?
Some people have and some people don't. It is absolutely not a skill factor. Because no matter how skilled you are, you are limited by your output. You can't overcome power with skill. So i'm not sure why people believe power is a skill. Or that skill can overcome power. It can't. It won't.
So personally the overall value of this conversation to me seems to be a construct to vent a little. But you really cant have a public struggle session because it will brush up against others that take offense to it.
No matter how i see it, you cant fix this, the toothpaste is already out the tube. The devs knew this would be the case and told the owners and the owners weighed it and considered this to be worth the outcome.
This conversation can't be had on the forum because no matter how you look at it, you are asking the game to take from someone else so that you can be happy but you are saying its for the community, its not. Its for you. Specifically. All you can do really is take it for what it is. A small blip in your day and move on.
Yes, i agree completely.
As long as these issues are discussed solely by the players, it will never be resolved, simply because we are not in a position to implement any changes.
But, i started this thread, here on the official forums as a reminder to anyone who can make the necessary changes that this is still a relevant issue. Because that's what official forums are for, at least they used to be.
However, having said that, power creep in itself is not my real concern, it is after all inevitable to a certain degree.
The part of the power creep issue that stands out plainly is the available DPS ceiling.
The maximum available DPS that any player can achieve using the legitimate game mechanics, and the fact that it is spilling out of the Elite content that is designed to handle it, and into rest of the game where it is way too much DPS for the current content, and the average player who exists there.
There is no reason for high level players to use that much DPS in regular content. We have ship slots, loadouts and alt characters to build with, pulling the content out from under the average player is unnecessary, at best.
Yeah and I suspect most high level DPS players don't want to build a ship purposely built to be as bad and unusable as possible to nerf all those traits and bonuses they've gotten just for the event that is. For a challenge of "Make this unviable build work" they might but not just for the event and quite frankly I don't blame them either.
"Making an unviable build work" is about the same as saying "make something not capable of working successfully work successfully."
I don't think I'd want to make my bicycle or lawnmower or laptop "as bad and unusable as possible" so this makes little sense to me.
"As bad and unusable as possible" =/= "not minmaxed to the gills in order to pump out the highest possible DPS".
Try to keep in mind that many players, myself included, aren't necessarily "minmaxed to the gills in order to pump out the highest possible dps" nor are we necessarily elite level or dps players.
Also, there are many of us that really haven't much in the way of traits / consoles / bonuses / endeavor rank to be nerfed.
Everybody has the option to use things that all players have access to in ways that can be successful.
Prot, if you're instakilling everything on the map before "lesser" ships can even move, you're minmaxed to the gills and might want to consider having a secondary, less minmaxed build available for Event TFOs. You can fly more than one ship, you know.
Jon, yes I realize that I can fly more than one ship. I hear ya about perhaps trying to make a few changes in order to slow things down. You could be right. It's a matter of perspective.
Instead of detuning things another solution might be to offer event maps at all difficulty levels to give players the option to dial in whatever degree of challenge they'd like ?
(And since this seems to need to be said lately: If you're not instakilling everything on the map, this clearly isn't about you. As someone I respect is fond of saying, "If it don't apply, let it fly.")
Good advice. It really depends upon the difficulty level of the map. No instakills on elite, some on advanced, most of the time on normal.
Comments
Some people accumulate marks after maxing reps not to get gear but to eventually turn them in for more dil. Unlike some I don't generate tons of dil all the time and I do use it to buy zen, even if I have to wait for it, simply because I have no funds to buy it with otherwise.
It's not always about the projects.
-How much DPS does a player need to be able to play the game ?
-How much DPS is enough DPS ?
-Is it truly necessary to be able to solo group content ?
If folks want to be able to do the maximum DPS that is able to be done within the games mechanics, then would it be possible to add content with the specific purpose of reaching and testing maximum DPS, without the need to interfere with regular gameplay ?. (Not talking about difficulty levels)
Surely there's a way for the people who wish to be able to obliterate everything instantly, or quicker, to be able to do so without disrupting the game for everyone else. I understand the DPS Min/Max crew is only a small part of the community, but they are certainly committed to their way of playing.
I don't chase maximum DPS, i just achieve enough to play efficiently. So i have no idea what The DPS crew might want as far as DPS specific content goes. Perhaps someone more DPS minded can suggest some possible options.
Some people have the mind set of 600k+ so they can pass all content no matter how terrible the rest of the group is. Some people get fun out of optimization and so can go way over 600k. Myself personally I like to be in the 200k to 300k range minimum when joining random people which I find is enough to cover that 1 or 2 members of the group doing under 120k. When with friends I am happy to go down to 120k as I know that's enough. If I go below 120k then I feel I am not contributing enough, not contributing my fair share.
1. It was suggested by a Dev a year or so ago that around 12k should suffice to play episodes at level 65, and it might suffice for Adv, but 20k should see you cope well in them all. The problem with people using ISA as the barometer is that your DPS is highly likely to be seriously boosted by those in your team, especially in pre-made. Team synergies really distort your output. Heck, even a well placed GW build has 100% uptime, so it's hard to get a 'pure' DPS unless you specially can measure vs 1 enemy.
2. As in 1, it's 20k to be comfortable, 50k is a boon.
3. Not necessarily, but I have no issue carrying an underpowered/under-knowledged team. Every little helps. I know my Sci toon can solo ISA with all objectives met, mostly because it's a high-powered Control/Drain/Exotic build for my Sci ships. The build wouldn't be as effective in other ships because it relies on the Secondary Deflector to cause a ton of extra damage amongst other things.
A lot of what helps is being able to use Gravity Well to pull enemies in for secondary warp core explosion damage, with the exception of the Tzenkethi who are specially resistant to the tactic. Alot of folk also use Beam or cannon only builds, which can one-shot alot of weaker enemies. It's all about going really narrow in focus on your build. I know a few would have a fit because I run beams and torps, but I've made my build focus on the strengths of each weapon. Because I have a high drain build the quantum phase torp evaporates shields, leaving my rear dark matter torp proc to hit harder, whilst my phasers are taking down any remaining shield before they hit. I like being my own person with my own build I worked on. It may not hit the obscene heights of DPS chasers, but it works a treat.
For instance, without getting too technical, is there a point in the DPS race where there is too much for regular gameplay ?.
I understand the reason why players enjoy pushing the boundaries of what's possible. But at what point does it become overkill ?
At what point does it become impractical to manage without overtly getting in the way of the average player ?.
A good grav well has many practical uses in many different scenarios, it add to and benefits gameplay in a positive way. Grav wells are a regular part of my playstyle, but i try not to use them unless i need to.
And referring to a much earlier comment, It's been said that some instances benefit from having someone there to clear the map of hostiles because the team are not up to the task of doing so themselves without failing the instance. Nobody is going learn how to play the instance if someone is there to do it all for them. It only teaches them to expect and rely on having someone to clear the map for them.
ps:Back in the days when TFO's were called STF's, there were no super overpowered DPS players around. If you failed a map, you failed it, no big deal. You learned how the game mechanics worked and you tried harder next time. Whether in a pre-built team or in a public queue, it did'nt matter.
You learned from your mistakes and sometimes the mistakes of others, and you went in and had another go until you got it down enough to win the scenario. That was where the fun was at. As for the equipment side of things, you learned that as you progressed through the story lines and other low level content.
Considering how much elite and high difficulty content there is in the game, yet it barely gets used at all, i'm prone to wonder if maybe a small number of high DPS players are sweeping through low and medium level content out of frustration, or worse, deliberately. Just guessing here, i can't speak for the motivations of others, but it's not unheard of.
I can relate to this directly.
The Tzenkethi are one of the many enemy types that require you too think about the appropriate strategy and equipment to deal with them effectively. I threw what i had at them until i discovered what did and did'nt work against them, it took time but that's the whole point, because it was fun to find out.
Eventually if enough DPS is thrown around, then it bypasses those mechanics completely. If the target is instakilled, the opportunity to learn and utilize the gameplay tactics is now gone. I have specific builds for specific enemies, purely for the gameplay. That is part of the buildcraft that existed before instakills became a thing.
As for ESO. yeah, there is quite a lot of content that is out of my reach for those same reasons
colonelmarik do you need help to git gud? I can throw together a f2p build, for which you will have to play a month and you'll end up doing more damage, than this ryokel guy ever did.
The game is NOT the problem here!
Views and Opinions May Not Reflect the Views and Opinions of Gearbox/Cryptic
Moderation Problems/Issues? Please contact the Community Manager
Terms of Service / Community Rules and Policies / FCT
Facebook / Twitter / Twitch
Cause i've seen he used the "problem" word. We don't have a problem.
And yeah i admit, i got carried away a bit, obviously
Like a bunch of people yelling at the ocean to stop making waves.
It's just an inevitability. Even this conversation is reductive and can't be constructive. All it can do is build animosity when everyone is like children angry that they have to grow into adults.
A company ill do whatever it can to make money, and their target audience is the ones that can give them said money. So being upset about it is just reductive. Without the company you have no game; unless your ideal outcome is to not have a game. The moment it became free to play and no longer subscription modeled then this was an inevitable outcome. Getting angry over it is just strange.
And the strangest part of it all is... the interaction is only 5-10 minutes of your day. You guys really want to build animosity and disgust for each other over 10 minutes of your day arguing over an inevitability built by the company owners?
Some people have and some people don't. It is absolutely not a skill factor. Because no matter how skilled you are, you are limited by your output. You can't overcome power with skill. So i'm not sure why people believe power is a skill. Or that skill can overcome power. It can't. It won't.
So personally the overall value of this conversation to me seems to be a construct to vent a little. But you really cant have a public struggle session because it will brush up against others that take offense to it.
No matter how i see it, you cant fix this, the toothpaste is already out the tube. The devs knew this would be the case and told the owners and the owners weighed it and considered this to be worth the outcome.
This conversation can't be had on the forum because no matter how you look at it, you are asking the game to take from someone else so that you can be happy but you are saying its for the community, its not. Its for you. Specifically. All you can do really is take it for what it is. A small blip in your day and move on.
Powercreep has been happening for years but its only in the past 6 months or so that I noticed its starting to have a negative impact on players and I experienced it myself. Forcing players down to normal with the current level of power creep is causing problems.
Yes, i agree completely.
As long as these issues are discussed solely by the players, it will never be resolved, simply because we are not in a position to implement any changes.
But, i started this thread, here on the official forums as a reminder to anyone who can make the necessary changes that this is still a relevant issue. Because that's what official forums are for, at least they used to be.
However, having said that, power creep in itself is not my real concern, it is after all inevitable to a certain degree.
The part of the power creep issue that stands out plainly is the available DPS ceiling.
The maximum available DPS that any player can achieve using the legitimate game mechanics, and the fact that it is spilling out of the Elite content that is designed to handle it, and into rest of the game where it is way too much DPS for the current content, and the average player who exists there.
There is no reason for high level players to use that much DPS in regular content. We have ship slots, loadouts and alt characters to build with, pulling the content out from under the average player is unnecessary, at best.
This is the only reason for this thread.
We used to be able to do events on Elite maps, I have no idea what the reason was for stopping this. All I can say is I find forcing everyone into normal has ruined events.
Well, yes. I agree with you.
Having the events set up like that is unfortunate and unavoidable. Even advanced level players will still be blasting through normal level content.
It's the Advanced level TFO's and Battlezones that are most affected by rampant DPS spillage. There really isn't anywhere outside of Elite TFO's and maybe PVP arenas for those high level players to go. Also unfortunate and currently unavoidable.
However, as to the built in DPS buffs and power creep that we build into our main characters. That can be worked around by creating alt characters, or our main characters can have other lower tier ships using lower level gear to compensate for the dps overspill.
I did mention previously that i have lower level ships set up specifically for just that purpose, mainly because Elite tier content is not as popular as it could be. So i have taken it upon myself to limit my own output to compensate for the 11 years worth of gear, buffs and traits that i have collected. I feel that i have more than enough options available to me so that i don't step on anyone elses fun.
I hope this helps to clear up my motivations and reasoning.
And as long as the people who are able to make changes, are made aware of any potential issues, that's really all that matters.
If they are'nt informed or reminded by the actively playing community, then it may never be addressed, if it is at all possible to be addressed.
ps; And as a quick side note, do recall some folks regularly running as a pre-built team, taking t1 connies and oberths into STF's just purely for challenge and some giggles.
As for limiting ourselves I already do that to an extent and its not really having any impact. My main is flying Carriers, 3/3 carriers at that and for main weapons I run a Tricobalt boat. Most would consider these two of the weakest options in game yet I am still way beyond the requirements for normal even with the extra step which I have done of removing the popular fleet tactical consoles that boost crit chance or damage.
I can only strip back so far before ruining my own fun and even if I strip back to a base ship with base gear I am going to be doing triple the DPS of what I used to do when I started the game. Anyway Stripping back any further will make it feel like what is the point in playing. I don't see asking players to strip back or change setups as a useful solution to the problem. There has to be a better solution.
Two weeks ago i said to some old alliance friends that i was coming back to STO, four of them decided to also pop in after a 4 year break.
Out of the 4 who came back, all of them quit within the space of 2 days after seeing the massive disparity between them and the new higher DPS ranges. Two of them spent hundreds, if not thousands of UK £'s on this game in the past. That's two whales that said "Nope" and walked away within 48 hours.
As for myself, i found a good alliance fleet recently, i have never really been a DPS chaser either, i just want a ship good enough to manage the advanced TFO randoms.
Is the disparity causing a major problem? No, not really if you look at it from Joe Blogs "Casual Gamer" perspective, sure, sometimes he might be accidentally AFK'ed cause he cant get a shot off in a TFO, but that's about it. However being an ex dev i recall the one single word which terrorises game developers and publishers. Entropy.
ST:O is 13 years old. Entropy is around the corner, the decline in numbers which needs two things to stop it, and one of those things is ex players returning...especially ex whale players who spend cash that goes into Cryptics coffers. If what i have seen with those 4 old friends is anything to go by, Cryptic have a problem which is now approaching, and if i was at Cryptic's studios right now, i would be worried about what happens 2 to 3 years from now.
Yes, again i agree with you.
There are limits to what a person can and will do to be able to enjoy a game.
Until a developer made solution is implemented, it really all boils down to player choice. what they are able to do verses what they want to do, and the grey areas in between.
There will always be power creep, there will always be people seeking to push the boundaries of what is possible, and also what is acceptable. That is the individuals choice to make.
And i try to keep reminding myself that not everyone has the time or resources to make a bunch of different characters with ships and equipment to suit.
I had a few discussions with past fleet mates that read alot like this, also one of the catalysts for this long winded discussion.
I don't expect it to make a difference. I don't even know if it's possible to fix, but it does'nt hurt to try, or ask.
Thanks for mentioning this. Being on a normal difficulty map for events has presented issues the past while both on the ground and in space.
Things haven't enough hit points at this level which can make playing without disturbing others challenging.
I don't think I'd want to make my bicycle or lawnmower or laptop "as bad and unusable as possible" so this makes little sense to me.
Try to keep in mind that many players, myself included, aren't necessarily "minmaxed to the gills in order to pump out the highest possible dps" nor are we necessarily elite level or dps players.
Also, there are many of us that really haven't much in the way of traits / consoles / bonuses / endeavor rank to be nerfed.
Everybody has the option to use things that all players have access to in ways that can be successful.
(And since this seems to need to be said lately: If you're not instakilling everything on the map, this clearly isn't about you. As someone I respect is fond of saying, "If it don't apply, let it fly.")
Yes, you are correct.
However, i was referring to the "instakill" levels of DPS. There may be uses for it in some situations. But not all, and certainly not in inappropriate situations like lower level group content and public access arenas.
As for the comment itself, it has now been taken out of context by multiple quotes. Here's the entire quote, in context.
Jon, yes I realize that I can fly more than one ship. I hear ya about perhaps trying to make a few changes in order to slow things down. You could be right. It's a matter of perspective.
Instead of detuning things another solution might be to offer event maps at all difficulty levels to give players the option to dial in whatever degree of challenge they'd like ?
Good advice. It really depends upon the difficulty level of the map. No instakills on elite, some on advanced, most of the time on normal.