If they indeed canonise the F they‘ll probably use the T5 stock Oddy because that is the original design. Plus, Cryptic’s T5 designs were better than the T6 in my opinion 😁
Also, that avoids dealing with fans outraged because the T6 Yorktown wasn't commissioned until 2410 in-game. Saying that the T5 Odyssey was an earlier design dating back to 2402, or even earlier, wouldn't be a stretch at all. (Still don't buy the Verity, as that's way too early in my estimation, but then again I'm not getting paid to write this, so my opinion isn't really worth a quatloo, is it?)
If they indeed canonise the F they‘ll probably use the T5 stock Oddy because that is the original design. Plus, Cryptic’s T5 designs were better than the T6 in my opinion 😁
Also, that avoids dealing with fans outraged because the T6 Yorktown wasn't commissioned until 2410 in-game. Saying that the T5 Odyssey was an earlier design dating back to 2402, or even earlier, wouldn't be a stretch at all. (Still don't buy the Verity, as that's way too early in my estimation, but then again I'm not getting paid to write this, so my opinion isn't really worth a quatloo, is it?)
What's another tie in comic to disregard, eh? Also isn't the Verity in that comic like NCC-97400 or something like that, that number is a bit too high for that point in time. But then registry nonsense is a headache unto itself.
Maybe when Starfleet designed a bigger ship, they wanted that one to be the next Enterprise and flagship. It could well be that both the E and F are still around.
That might seem strange, but there are in fact multiple ships of different classes that have the same name. See for example the USS Drake.
And if you can have 2 USS Drake's with Starfleet not even bothering to clearly distinct between the two, I doubt they'd think it a problem to have two Enterprise's when their differences are made clear by the E and F.
There is also the fact that the E took considerable structural damage during Nemesis that could have led to ongoing structural problems that shortened the service life of the ship considerably.
If you go by commission dates, STO is way off anyway. In S2 they canonised the T6 version of the Nebula, as such the Andromeda family. In STO these are ships built after most of the old ones had been lost in the Iconian war. And, sadly, they skipped the superior Venture type refit. That also means if the T5 design language of the Oddyssey is in fact canonised, they have to be commissioned way earlier than STO suggests since canon is already at T6 in the early 25c 😉
As cool as STO ships in S2 were, they didn’t really pay attention which ships they were showing, but just took the first model they came across. It’d have been great if those details would have been acknowledged.
^ Memory Alpha.org is not canon. It's a open wiki with arbitrary rules. Only what can be cited from an episode is. ^
"No. Men do not roar. Women roar. Then they hurl heavy objects... and claw at you." -Worf, son of Mogh
"A filthy, mangy beast, but in its bony breast beat the heart of a warrior" - "faithful" (...) "but ever-ready to follow the call of the wild." - Martok, about a Targ
"That pig smelled horrid. A sweet-sour, extremely pungent odor. I showered and showered, and it took me a week to get rid of it!" - Robert Justman, appreciating Emmy-Lou
Kind of reminds me how crazy the uniform situation is too. In the last 40 years in universe Starfleet has had like 10 uniforms on the go. But for like 80 years they never changed it once.
A normie goes "Oh, what's this?"
An otaku goes "UwU, what's this?"
A furry goes "OwO, what's this?"
A werewolf goes "Awoo, what's this?"
"It's nothing personal, I just don't feel like I've gotten to know a person until I've sniffed their crotch." "We said 'no' to Mr. Curiosity. We're not home. Curiosity is not welcome, it is not to be invited in. Curiosity...is bad. It gets you in trouble, it gets you killed, and more importantly...it makes you poor!"
Passion and Serenity are one.
I gain power by understanding both.
In the chaos of their battle, I bring order.
I am a shadow, darkness born from light.
The Force is united within me.
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rattler2Member, Star Trek Online ModeratorPosts: 58,597Community Moderator
The issue is that we have canon showing the WoK uniform, although altered by removing bits like the undershirt, being used up through the Enterprise-C.
The issue is that we have canon showing the WoK uniform, although altered by removing bits like the undershirt, being used up through the Enterprise-C.
We see it used in an instance of that era (roughly 60 years or so ago from the current STO date.)
^^^
That said, we don't know at all what variations were in use between the last time we saw a version of the Monster Maroons on screen in the TOS feature film era 140 years prior to 2311 in STO.
And if you want an example - The Fed ship uniforms shown in the 2230s in the USS Kelvin incident (still Prime as they were the uniforms in use before and after the Narada divergence) are almost exactly like the "All Good Things" style ship uniforms available in STO in their look; so yeah, Starfleet seems to go back to styles used across a wide timeframe (almost 180 years).
Thus just because we haven't seen a variation over 60 years, given what we've now seen across the Star Fleet timeframe, it's probably a given that they 'swapped styles' sometime over that 60 years, but just returned to a previous style (for whatever reason) when we got to see it again.
[And of course we all understand the actual Production reasons things like this occur ]
Formerly known as Armsman from June 2008 to June 20, 2012 PWE ARC Drone says: "Your STO forum community as you have known it is ended...Display names are irrelevant...Any further sense of community is irrelevant...Resistance is futile...You will be assimilated..."
The issue is that we have canon showing the WoK uniform, although altered by removing bits like the undershirt, being used up through the Enterprise-C.
I don't think it was standard issue to use the same uniform and remove the undershirt. I think for all intends and purposes it was the same uniform, albeit with a different badge (introduction of the combadge on the Ent-C probably).
I think they could choose whether an undershirt was worn in-universe, but the real reason was, I think, that they simply had no undershirt available when they shot the scenes in TNG.
^ Memory Alpha.org is not canon. It's a open wiki with arbitrary rules. Only what can be cited from an episode is. ^
"No. Men do not roar. Women roar. Then they hurl heavy objects... and claw at you." -Worf, son of Mogh
"A filthy, mangy beast, but in its bony breast beat the heart of a warrior" - "faithful" (...) "but ever-ready to follow the call of the wild." - Martok, about a Targ
"That pig smelled horrid. A sweet-sour, extremely pungent odor. I showered and showered, and it took me a week to get rid of it!" - Robert Justman, appreciating Emmy-Lou
rattler2Member, Star Trek Online ModeratorPosts: 58,597Community Moderator
I'm not discounting real world reasons. Just pointing out in universe stuff. The last time we saw the WoK uniform before the variant in SNW was actually the cadet uniform in Nemesis when Picard was looking at a picture of himself as a cadet. Which IMO doesn't make sense why he'd be bald back then other than they just wanted to have something to tie Shinzon and Picard together even more so lets put him in as Cadet Picard in a picture!
As far as I know, in STO lore Data is still captain of the E which went missing. Later, we see him in a cutscene talking to the imprisoned Sela. But according to PIC none of that is possible.
I think the game will just stick to its lore and only change parts that are convenient. Maybe at some point when the missions are due for a remake things get retconned, but until then we won’t see big changes.
But also in STO lore Tuvok and Ezri resigned from Starfleet.
Yeah I was never able to see how that was meant to be Data even way back when that episode was new, just some random no name who had the holo thing of Yar. Could be anyone.
People assume it's Data.
But it's really just that: an assumption.
Actually no, it is not an assumption. The way it was presented heavily implies that it was Data.
As far as I know, in STO lore Data is still captain of the E which went missing. Later, we see him in a cutscene talking to the imprisoned Sela. But according to PIC none of that is possible.
I think the game will just stick to its lore and only change parts that are convenient. Maybe at some point when the missions are due for a remake things get retconned, but until then we won’t see big changes.
But also in STO lore Tuvok and Ezri resigned from Starfleet.
Yeah I was never able to see how that was meant to be Data even way back when that episode was new, just some random no name who had the holo thing of Yar. Could be anyone.
People assume it's Data.
But it's really just that: an assumption.
Actually no, it is not an assumption. The way it was presented heavily implies that it was Data.
It's not even an implication. Cryptic has come straight out and said it's meant to be Data. They just can't show his face, because they don't have the rights to Brent Spiner's likeness.
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I mean if they wanted to shift things to "yes data is dead" it'd be easy eneugh to replace the model with a bald human that's "totally not Picard"
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rattler2Member, Star Trek Online ModeratorPosts: 58,597Community Moderator
For the time being, STO is probably a close, alternate reality. They will adapt what they can, but if they can't they will diverge. And I would hesitate to do anything with Picard until after Picard s3 in case we get a curveball that would force yet another change to line up with canon.
So for now I'm honestly content with the Data Cameo.
For the time being, STO is probably a close, alternate reality. They will adapt what they can, but if they can't they will diverge. And I would hesitate to do anything with Picard until after Picard s3 in case we get a curveball that would force yet another change to line up with canon.
So for now I'm honestly content with the Data Cameo.
Ohh I agree. best wait until Picard is finished with before doing anything with it. Can't wait for season 3
For the time being, STO is probably a close, alternate reality. They will adapt what they can, but if they can't they will diverge. And I would hesitate to do anything with Picard until after Picard s3 in case we get a curveball that would force yet another change to line up with canon.
So for now I'm honestly content with the Data Cameo.
Yeah, if Worf dies in 2401 (Or whatever year they set STP S3 in); that kind of puts a BIG crimp in his 2410-11 STO storyline...
Formerly known as Armsman from June 2008 to June 20, 2012 PWE ARC Drone says: "Your STO forum community as you have known it is ended...Display names are irrelevant...Any further sense of community is irrelevant...Resistance is futile...You will be assimilated..."
I'm not discounting real world reasons. Just pointing out in universe stuff. The last time we saw the WoK uniform before the variant in SNW was actually the cadet uniform in Nemesis when Picard was looking at a picture of himself as a cadet. Which IMO doesn't make sense why he'd be bald back then other than they just wanted to have something to tie Shinzon and Picard together even more so lets put him in as Cadet Picard in a picture!
I think the WoK uniform that Picard was wearing was from whoever made that picture reading one of the oldest TNG series bibles instead of one of the later ones (though just pulling the idea out of their backside to put him in it is just as likely, the movie division is notoriously sloppy with that kind of thing).
When they started putting TNG together, they really did not have a target date for the setting. All they did was block out a decade or two for the "movieverse" stuff then just used a fuzzy "after the TOS crew retires" rule of thumb beyond that. Eventually they settled on a century after TOS to keep the numbers neat and to make it easier to calculate the time difference between events in TOS and their equivalent ones in TNG.
Picard's original bio actually had him in Starfleet academy around the time of the movies so the uniform is correct for that, (just like Tuvok was actively assigned to Excelsior under Sulu's command). Later versions corrected his bio so he would not be in his eighties or thereabouts during the time TNG was finally set at.
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rattler2Member, Star Trek Online ModeratorPosts: 58,597Community Moderator
Well... they also established that Picard wore one in a TNG episode, the one where Q offered to let him change his fate because Picard "died". It showed a younger Picard in a WoK uniform getting stabbed in the back by a Nausicaan. But he had HAIR back then.
> @rattler2 said: > Well... they also established that Picard wore one in a TNG episode, the one where Q offered to let him change his fate because Picard "died". It showed a younger Picard in a WoK uniform getting stabbed in the back by a Nausicaan. But he had HAIR back then.
The Jack Crusher pic is from Farpoint while they were still fuzzy about the timeframe. I had thought Tapestry (the Picard stabbing) was one of the earlier ones as well, but it turns out to be season six instead (ok, so I rushed my previous comment and did not look it up to confirm it, I do make occasional mistakes just like everyone else does), so they probably did it to keep continuity with the Crusher photo from Farpoint.
On the other hand, Yesterday's Enterprise confirms that they used a modified version of the WoK uniform (in fact, the same collarless version Crusher wore, but not the narrow-collared one Picard wore in Tapistry) in 2344 so in-universe they could have done the same kind of uniform thrash they did in the Cage/TOS/DSC snarl-up a hundred years earlier with almost everyone using the ENT-esque Bedazzled-blue-barf uniforms between The Cage and TOS. or they could have done the seemingly impossible for Starfleet thing of having an almost stable uniform for nearly a century.
The Jack Crusher pic is from Farpoint while they were still fuzzy about the timeframe. I had thought Tapestry (the Picard stabbing) was one of the earlier ones as well, but it turns out to be season six instead (ok, so I rushed my previous comment and did not look it up to confirm it, I do make occasional mistakes just like everyone else does), so they probably did it to keep continuity with the Crusher photo from Farpoint.
Family in season 4 is that one of Jack Crusher. I can't remember what his other appearance in Journey's End in season 7 was like (Wesley plots are hard to commit to memory) although when he died we were in TNG season 1 uniform land (with Picard hair too).
Again, I'm pretty sure the uniforms, except for the combadge, are supposed to be the same thing. Whether that collar is different or they wear it with or without turtleneck aside, I don't think such minor change are actually supposed to be in-universe occurences.
^ Memory Alpha.org is not canon. It's a open wiki with arbitrary rules. Only what can be cited from an episode is. ^
"No. Men do not roar. Women roar. Then they hurl heavy objects... and claw at you." -Worf, son of Mogh
"A filthy, mangy beast, but in its bony breast beat the heart of a warrior" - "faithful" (...) "but ever-ready to follow the call of the wild." - Martok, about a Targ
"That pig smelled horrid. A sweet-sour, extremely pungent odor. I showered and showered, and it took me a week to get rid of it!" - Robert Justman, appreciating Emmy-Lou
rattler2Member, Star Trek Online ModeratorPosts: 58,597Community Moderator
IMO the undershirt and belt could indicate a more relaxed uniform code during that time too. I don't mind the changing badge as much as we have seen uniform transitions without badge transitions, and vice versa. (TNG s1>-TNG>DS9/Voy for uniform, TNG>FC for badge)
IMO the undershirt and belt could indicate a more relaxed uniform code during that time too. I don't mind the changing badge as much as we have seen uniform transitions without badge transitions, and vice versa. (TNG s1>-TNG>DS9/Voy for uniform, TNG>FC for badge)
The badge makes a lot of sense. During the time of the Ent-C we see a lot of technoligical upgrades like phaser array 'strips' on the Ambassador model. In my headcanon and until provn otherwise, I assume the TNG combadge is created in that time as well.
^ Memory Alpha.org is not canon. It's a open wiki with arbitrary rules. Only what can be cited from an episode is. ^
"No. Men do not roar. Women roar. Then they hurl heavy objects... and claw at you." -Worf, son of Mogh
"A filthy, mangy beast, but in its bony breast beat the heart of a warrior" - "faithful" (...) "but ever-ready to follow the call of the wild." - Martok, about a Targ
"That pig smelled horrid. A sweet-sour, extremely pungent odor. I showered and showered, and it took me a week to get rid of it!" - Robert Justman, appreciating Emmy-Lou
In my headcanon and until provn otherwise, I assume the TNG combadge is created in that time as well.
Discovery showed that Section 31 had combadge technology before TOS, so the only question still left is when was that technology passed on to the rest of Starfleet?
In my headcanon and until provn otherwise, I assume the TNG combadge is created in that time as well.
Discovery showed that Section 31 had combadge technology before TOS, so the only question still left is when was that technology passed on to the rest of Starfleet?
Of course it did...
I don't know. I know so little of what happened in Discovery, I might as well say I didn't see it (I did, up until two episodes before the S3 finale, but eh)
Then I don't know. It's just random, LOL.
^ Memory Alpha.org is not canon. It's a open wiki with arbitrary rules. Only what can be cited from an episode is. ^
"No. Men do not roar. Women roar. Then they hurl heavy objects... and claw at you." -Worf, son of Mogh
"A filthy, mangy beast, but in its bony breast beat the heart of a warrior" - "faithful" (...) "but ever-ready to follow the call of the wild." - Martok, about a Targ
"That pig smelled horrid. A sweet-sour, extremely pungent odor. I showered and showered, and it took me a week to get rid of it!" - Robert Justman, appreciating Emmy-Lou
In my headcanon and until provn otherwise, I assume the TNG combadge is created in that time as well.
Discovery showed that Section 31 had combadge technology before TOS, so the only question still left is when was that technology passed on to the rest of Starfleet?
Of course it did...
I don't know. I know so little of what happened in Discovery, I might as well say I didn't see it (I did, up until two episodes before the S3 finale, but eh)
Then I don't know. It's just random, LOL.
They probably some GOOD trans warps laying about as well, around that time, I bet.
Comments
What's another tie in comic to disregard, eh? Also isn't the Verity in that comic like NCC-97400 or something like that, that number is a bit too high for that point in time. But then registry nonsense is a headache unto itself.
Considering S2 showed that the Sovereign class is still in service I suspect the 1701-E was probably destroyed somehow rather than retired.
That might seem strange, but there are in fact multiple ships of different classes that have the same name. See for example the USS Drake.
And if you can have 2 USS Drake's with Starfleet not even bothering to clearly distinct between the two, I doubt they'd think it a problem to have two Enterprise's when their differences are made clear by the E and F.
As cool as STO ships in S2 were, they didn’t really pay attention which ships they were showing, but just took the first model they came across. It’d have been great if those details would have been acknowledged.
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A normie goes "Oh, what's this?"
An otaku goes "UwU, what's this?"
A furry goes "OwO, what's this?"
A werewolf goes "Awoo, what's this?"
"It's nothing personal, I just don't feel like I've gotten to know a person until I've sniffed their crotch."
"We said 'no' to Mr. Curiosity. We're not home. Curiosity is not welcome, it is not to be invited in. Curiosity...is bad. It gets you in trouble, it gets you killed, and more importantly...it makes you poor!"
We see it used in an instance of that era (roughly 60 years or so ago from the current STO date.)
^^^
That said, we don't know at all what variations were in use between the last time we saw a version of the Monster Maroons on screen in the TOS feature film era 140 years prior to 2311 in STO.
And if you want an example - The Fed ship uniforms shown in the 2230s in the USS Kelvin incident (still Prime as they were the uniforms in use before and after the Narada divergence) are almost exactly like the "All Good Things" style ship uniforms available in STO in their look; so yeah, Starfleet seems to go back to styles used across a wide timeframe (almost 180 years).
Thus just because we haven't seen a variation over 60 years, given what we've now seen across the Star Fleet timeframe, it's probably a given that they 'swapped styles' sometime over that 60 years, but just returned to a previous style (for whatever reason) when we got to see it again.
[And of course we all understand the actual Production reasons things like this occur
PWE ARC Drone says: "Your STO forum community as you have known it is ended...Display names are irrelevant...Any further sense of community is irrelevant...Resistance is futile...You will be assimilated..."
I don't think it was standard issue to use the same uniform and remove the undershirt. I think for all intends and purposes it was the same uniform, albeit with a different badge (introduction of the combadge on the Ent-C probably).
I think they could choose whether an undershirt was worn in-universe, but the real reason was, I think, that they simply had no undershirt available when they shot the scenes in TNG.
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Actually no, it is not an assumption. The way it was presented heavily implies that it was Data.
It's not even an implication. Cryptic has come straight out and said it's meant to be Data. They just can't show his face, because they don't have the rights to Brent Spiner's likeness.
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So for now I'm honestly content with the Data Cameo.
Ohh I agree. best wait until Picard is finished with before doing anything with it. Can't wait for season 3
PWE ARC Drone says: "Your STO forum community as you have known it is ended...Display names are irrelevant...Any further sense of community is irrelevant...Resistance is futile...You will be assimilated..."
I think the WoK uniform that Picard was wearing was from whoever made that picture reading one of the oldest TNG series bibles instead of one of the later ones (though just pulling the idea out of their backside to put him in it is just as likely, the movie division is notoriously sloppy with that kind of thing).
When they started putting TNG together, they really did not have a target date for the setting. All they did was block out a decade or two for the "movieverse" stuff then just used a fuzzy "after the TOS crew retires" rule of thumb beyond that. Eventually they settled on a century after TOS to keep the numbers neat and to make it easier to calculate the time difference between events in TOS and their equivalent ones in TNG.
Picard's original bio actually had him in Starfleet academy around the time of the movies so the uniform is correct for that, (just like Tuvok was actively assigned to Excelsior under Sulu's command). Later versions corrected his bio so he would not be in his eighties or thereabouts during the time TNG was finally set at.
> Well... they also established that Picard wore one in a TNG episode, the one where Q offered to let him change his fate because Picard "died". It showed a younger Picard in a WoK uniform getting stabbed in the back by a Nausicaan. But he had HAIR back then.
And again in some Jack Crusher related flashback.
And the only image of Lt. Picard a quick search turned up:
On the other hand, Yesterday's Enterprise confirms that they used a modified version of the WoK uniform (in fact, the same collarless version Crusher wore, but not the narrow-collared one Picard wore in Tapistry) in 2344 so in-universe they could have done the same kind of uniform thrash they did in the Cage/TOS/DSC snarl-up a hundred years earlier with almost everyone using the ENT-esque Bedazzled-blue-barf uniforms between The Cage and TOS. or they could have done the seemingly impossible for Starfleet thing of having an almost stable uniform for nearly a century.
Family in season 4 is that one of Jack Crusher. I can't remember what his other appearance in Journey's End in season 7 was like (Wesley plots are hard to commit to memory) although when he died we were in TNG season 1 uniform land (with Picard hair too).
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The badge makes a lot of sense. During the time of the Ent-C we see a lot of technoligical upgrades like phaser array 'strips' on the Ambassador model. In my headcanon and until provn otherwise, I assume the TNG combadge is created in that time as well.
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Discovery showed that Section 31 had combadge technology before TOS, so the only question still left is when was that technology passed on to the rest of Starfleet?
Of course it did...
I don't know. I know so little of what happened in Discovery, I might as well say I didn't see it (I did, up until two episodes before the S3 finale, but eh)
Then I don't know. It's just random, LOL.
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They probably some GOOD trans warps laying about as well, around that time, I bet.