rattler2Member, Star Trek Online ModeratorPosts: 58,602Community Moderator
Considering the clandestine nature of S31... I'm not surprised they figured out combadge tech that early. They're frickin Black Ops Superspies after all. They probably sat on it until the 24th Century when Starfleet started getting close to the tech themselves.
Considering the clandestine nature of S31... I'm not surprised they figured out combadge tech that early. They're frickin Black Ops Superspies after all. They probably sat on it until the 24th Century when Starfleet started getting close to the tech themselves.
There's also the possibility that while the tech existed it wasn't refined enough for mass production on the scale having combadges with all Starfleet personal would demand.
To explain (and yes I know it's said UFP doesn't use money I'm using monetary values just for demonstration purposes) you typical 24th century combadge costs 100 credits per badge and those S31 cost 100 000 credits per badge so having a relatively small amount of S31 badges could work (They'd have more funds to use per agent even if the actual resources were less) and it's clearly demonstrated (not mention outright stated) that things have a cost in UFP and there's no limitless pool of resources to draw on.
A normie goes "Oh, what's this?"
An otaku goes "UwU, what's this?"
A furry goes "OwO, what's this?"
A werewolf goes "Awoo, what's this?"
"It's nothing personal, I just don't feel like I've gotten to know a person until I've sniffed their crotch." "We said 'no' to Mr. Curiosity. We're not home. Curiosity is not welcome, it is not to be invited in. Curiosity...is bad. It gets you in trouble, it gets you killed, and more importantly...it makes you poor!"
Passion and Serenity are one.
I gain power by understanding both.
In the chaos of their battle, I bring order.
I am a shadow, darkness born from light.
The Force is united within me.
Considering the clandestine nature of S31... I'm not surprised they figured out combadge tech that early. They're frickin Black Ops Superspies after all. They probably sat on it until the 24th Century when Starfleet started getting close to the tech themselves.
In ST:TMP, Kirk's communicator was in the wrist of his uniform and he was tapping the wrist to activate it.
Formerly known as Armsman from June 2008 to June 20, 2012 PWE ARC Drone says: "Your STO forum community as you have known it is ended...Display names are irrelevant...Any further sense of community is irrelevant...Resistance is futile...You will be assimilated..."
Considering the clandestine nature of S31... I'm not surprised they figured out combadge tech that early. They're frickin Black Ops Superspies after all. They probably sat on it until the 24th Century when Starfleet started getting close to the tech themselves.
"Clandestine..." "Black Ops Superspies..."
What kind of clandestine black ops superspies openly use branded merchandise that clearly identifies them as clandestine black ops superspies while also introducing themselves as clandestine black ops superspies?
This was bad writing. And bad script approval.
Dialog that reads, "Hello. We're Section 31 and we're here to use our Section 31 Devices to Section 31 information out of your prisoner," cannot be far behind.
Curse you Person that Rattles, I swore I'd never get pulled into this KaKaPoopy again!
Seriously, though, I can see why the tech may not be in wide use yet. It may be worked out enough to use sparingly in the earlier stages, but until adjacent technologies improve it may not be practical for wide everyday use. New tech is not born perfected.
Considering the clandestine nature of S31... I'm not surprised they figured out combadge tech that early. They're frickin Black Ops Superspies after all. They probably sat on it until the 24th Century when Starfleet started getting close to the tech themselves.
"Clandestine..." "Black Ops Superspies..."
What kind of clandestine black ops superspies openly use branded merchandise that clearly identifies them as clandestine black ops superspies while also introducing themselves as clandestine black ops superspies?
Considering the clandestine nature of S31... I'm not surprised they figured out combadge tech that early. They're frickin Black Ops Superspies after all. They probably sat on it until the 24th Century when Starfleet started getting close to the tech themselves.
"Clandestine..." "Black Ops Superspies..."
What kind of clandestine black ops superspies openly use branded merchandise that clearly identifies them as clandestine black ops superspies while also introducing themselves as clandestine black ops superspies?
I dunno, ask the CIA.
I'd fire a bunch of those nincompoops.
(I hope this edit takes. My mouse has decided to double click of its own accord.)
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rattler2Member, Star Trek Online ModeratorPosts: 58,602Community Moderator
Considering the clandestine nature of S31... I'm not surprised they figured out combadge tech that early. They're frickin Black Ops Superspies after all. They probably sat on it until the 24th Century when Starfleet started getting close to the tech themselves.
"Clandestine..." "Black Ops Superspies..."
What kind of clandestine black ops superspies openly use branded merchandise that clearly identifies them as clandestine black ops superspies while also introducing themselves as clandestine black ops superspies?
This was bad writing. And bad script approval.
Dialog that reads, "Hello. We're Section 31 and we're here to use our Section 31 Devices to Section 31 information out of your prisoner," cannot be far behind.
Curse you Person that Rattles, I swore I'd never get pulled into this KaKaPoopy again!
Seriously, though, I can see why the tech may not be in wide use yet. It may be worked out enough to use sparingly in the earlier stages, but until adjacent technologies improve it may not be practical for wide everyday use. New tech is not born perfected.
In DSC they already have dialog that bad, though not that particular line. Usually it is to easter-egg some piece of Trek movie (or traditional series) dialog (like the "you can't navigate without a star"), but a lot of times it is a hokey attempt to increase the melodrama like the kitschy gem "You're alive! You're alive too! You're all alive!".
The combadge thing is not too far out even though it is a symptom of the "all times are the same" writing in a vacuum problem NuTrek has (in some ways it is worse than the Star Wars tech stagnation) where they get going and just use whatever is convenient to convey the effect they are going for without considering possible limits imposed by era.
To be fair though, it could have been a short-range concealed communicator like Maxwell Smart's shoephone or U.N.C.L.E. pens that (in this case) hooked into the ship/facility/whatever's subspace WiFi-equivalent local network and used a backdoor in Starfleet comms systems to piggyback its signal out. That way they would not need the heftier transmitters and powersources of the handhelds.
Diane Duane used a similar idea of tapping into that network in her Dreadnaught Trek novel so the concept was solidly out in the wilds of the fan scene for a long time, and some of those ideas eventually end up canonized in one way or another.
Section 31 was never handled well. It is treated as if they cannot decide if it is a public face of the Federation intelligence apparatus with its black badges, special ships, and other distinctive gear, or if it is a shadowy organization with no oversight. Properly, if they are trying to be a CIA analog with a conspiracy theory deep core, they should have a public face with council oversight and their gear, and a secret inner cabal that operates without oversight but never talks about it to outsiders like Starfleet officers and does not use identifiable gear.
Kirk's wristcom looked like one of today's Fitbit bands, but even before that Joanne Linville's Romulan commander used a comm that was either in a wristband even smaller than that, or built into the fabric of her uniform sleeve (she was supposed to use one of the TOS Klingon communicators but someone forgot to give her the prop so she talked into her sleeve instead to keep from blowing the take).
You can bend your mind for one explanation or the other. But like the whole Gorn affair, when you have writers who figuratively state that anything we know from established canon might have been an illusion so they are free to do whatever, you know that the Tyler's combadge isn't something S31 came up with and keep under wraps until over a hundred years later. you know it's one of the 'easter eggs' @phoenixc#0738 mentioned. "See, he's using a combadge from TNG! LOL!" - further evidence is Pike's really inexplicable sceptic look - yes, the combadge might be unknown technology, but he lives in Discovery's 'every technology imaginable exists' universe. The technnology cannot stump someone like him the way it's implied. This is the character breaking the fourth wall, saying "LOL, is this a combadge from TNG?".
^ Memory Alpha.org is not canon. It's a open wiki with arbitrary rules. Only what can be cited from an episode is. ^
"No. Men do not roar. Women roar. Then they hurl heavy objects... and claw at you." -Worf, son of Mogh
"A filthy, mangy beast, but in its bony breast beat the heart of a warrior" - "faithful" (...) "but ever-ready to follow the call of the wild." - Martok, about a Targ
"That pig smelled horrid. A sweet-sour, extremely pungent odor. I showered and showered, and it took me a week to get rid of it!" - Robert Justman, appreciating Emmy-Lou
further evidence is Pike's really inexplicable sceptic look
He does more than just give Tyler a look:
I wish the scene was on YouTube so I could link the whole thing instead of just gifs, but it doesn't seem to be.
Impossible! What kind of magic touchy-talkie device is that!? Everybody knows you can only talk on a flippy-talkie!
^ Memory Alpha.org is not canon. It's a open wiki with arbitrary rules. Only what can be cited from an episode is. ^
"No. Men do not roar. Women roar. Then they hurl heavy objects... and claw at you." -Worf, son of Mogh
"A filthy, mangy beast, but in its bony breast beat the heart of a warrior" - "faithful" (...) "but ever-ready to follow the call of the wild." - Martok, about a Targ
"That pig smelled horrid. A sweet-sour, extremely pungent odor. I showered and showered, and it took me a week to get rid of it!" - Robert Justman, appreciating Emmy-Lou
A normie goes "Oh, what's this?"
An otaku goes "UwU, what's this?"
A furry goes "OwO, what's this?"
A werewolf goes "Awoo, what's this?"
"It's nothing personal, I just don't feel like I've gotten to know a person until I've sniffed their crotch." "We said 'no' to Mr. Curiosity. We're not home. Curiosity is not welcome, it is not to be invited in. Curiosity...is bad. It gets you in trouble, it gets you killed, and more importantly...it makes you poor!"
Passion and Serenity are one.
I gain power by understanding both.
In the chaos of their battle, I bring order.
I am a shadow, darkness born from light.
The Force is united within me.
Basically the same expression people had when the Motorola DynaTAC 8000X was unveiled - "What the hell kind of phone doesn't have a CORD?".
I'll grant a tech-unsavy person from the 1980's that reaction. Not starship captain Christopher Pike in the 23rd century
If it had to be acknowledged at all, maybe something along the lines of "that communicator isn't standard-issue" or whatever. But like that? It's a LOL! refrence.
^ Memory Alpha.org is not canon. It's a open wiki with arbitrary rules. Only what can be cited from an episode is. ^
"No. Men do not roar. Women roar. Then they hurl heavy objects... and claw at you." -Worf, son of Mogh
"A filthy, mangy beast, but in its bony breast beat the heart of a warrior" - "faithful" (...) "but ever-ready to follow the call of the wild." - Martok, about a Targ
"That pig smelled horrid. A sweet-sour, extremely pungent odor. I showered and showered, and it took me a week to get rid of it!" - Robert Justman, appreciating Emmy-Lou
Basically the same expression people had when the Motorola DynaTAC 8000X was unveiled - "What the hell kind of phone doesn't have a CORD?".
I'll grant a tech-unsavy person from the 1980's that reaction. Not starship captain Christopher Pike in the 23rd century
If it had to be acknowledged at all, maybe something along the lines of "that communicator isn't standard-issue" or whatever. But like that? It's a LOL! refrence.
No, it's a completely understandable response from a man whose only previous experience with communicators involves a handheld device that's about four times larger than a badge.
You see DSC as "every kind of technology imaginable", mostly because you don't seem to like it and look for chances to dump on it. Pike, as someone who lives in that universe, is used to a certain amount of magical-seeming technology - transporters, faster-than-light travel, that sort of thing. It's not "every sort of technology", it's "progress doesn't freeze". Incredulity, in such a world, is the rational response to being presented with something that seems so plainly impossible, yet clearly exists. (Along with maybe a fraction of, "why don't I get one of those??")
Formerly known as Armsman from June 2008 to June 20, 2012 PWE ARC Drone says: "Your STO forum community as you have known it is ended...Display names are irrelevant...Any further sense of community is irrelevant...Resistance is futile...You will be assimilated..."
Considering the clandestine nature of S31... I'm not surprised they figured out combadge tech that early. They're frickin Black Ops Superspies after all. They probably sat on it until the 24th Century when Starfleet started getting close to the tech themselves.
"Clandestine..." "Black Ops Superspies..."
What kind of clandestine black ops superspies openly use branded merchandise that clearly identifies them as clandestine black ops superspies while also introducing themselves as clandestine black ops superspies?
well, you can also go with picard no longer being Prime timeline after the Q shenanigans
To be fair, We haven't really followed the correct "Prime Timeline" since "The Naked Time" TOS S01E04, the so called "Prime Timeline" that most Trekkies know of is actually a bunch of temporal anomalies piled on top of each other.
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rattler2Member, Star Trek Online ModeratorPosts: 58,602Community Moderator
I think most people just consider the Prime Timeline to be what is seen on TV and most of the movies. Then we have the branching Kelvin Timeline, and of course the Mirror Universe. We've also seen several aborted timelines that were caused by temporal events and later repaired to restore the timeline, such as the Confederation Timeline as seen in Picard s2, which in itself is technically part of a timeloop where something had to happen in the past for an event to happen in the present. We have seen similar events as well, such as First Contact leading to Regeneration in Enterprise, which in turn leads to encountering the Borg in TNG.
Is it possible that some of these aborted timelines, like the Confederation timeline, still exists thanks to Multiverse Theory? Possible. But Star Trek's portrayal of time travel and alternate events tends to be whatever the script calls for, as sometimes events affect the Prime Timeline and the damage must be repaired to restore the course of history (Confed Timeline in Picard), while others branch off (Kelvin Timeline).
Section 31 was never handled well. It is treated as if they cannot decide if it is a public face of the Federation intelligence apparatus with its black badges, special ships, and other distinctive gear, or if it is a shadowy organization with no oversight. Properly, if they are trying to be a CIA analog with a conspiracy theory deep core, they should have a public face with council oversight and their gear, and a secret inner cabal that operates without oversight but never talks about it to outsiders like Starfleet officers and does not use identifiable gear.
Kirk's wristcom looked like one of today's Fitbit bands, but even before that Joanne Linville's Romulan commander used a comm that was either in a wristband even smaller than that, or built into the fabric of her uniform sleeve (she was supposed to use one of the TOS Klingon communicators but someone forgot to give her the prop so she talked into her sleeve instead to keep from blowing the take).
well theoretically one could say Section 31 started out semi-legitimate
sometime they messed up badly enough they had to go into hiding
I would say creating a super AI that was going to erase organic life would qualify
STO seems to allude to them returning to semi-legitimacy
please it's an Apple watch!
0
rattler2Member, Star Trek Online ModeratorPosts: 58,602Community Moderator
I'd say Section 31 started out as a shadow organization using the original Starfleet Charter as their excuse for existing. By the time of Discovery they were semi-legit. But then sometime after that, probably in the 2280s they once again went underground to become the organization we knew from DS9. I still think that the whole Khitomer Incident might have been partially a Section 31 op, based on the high ranking Starfleet Officers involved like Colonel West and Admiral Cartwright.
Comments
There's also the possibility that while the tech existed it wasn't refined enough for mass production on the scale having combadges with all Starfleet personal would demand.
To explain (and yes I know it's said UFP doesn't use money I'm using monetary values just for demonstration purposes) you typical 24th century combadge costs 100 credits per badge and those S31 cost 100 000 credits per badge so having a relatively small amount of S31 badges could work (They'd have more funds to use per agent even if the actual resources were less) and it's clearly demonstrated (not mention outright stated) that things have a cost in UFP and there's no limitless pool of resources to draw on.
It's the exact same situation with personal commbadges.
#LegalizeAwoo
A normie goes "Oh, what's this?"
An otaku goes "UwU, what's this?"
A furry goes "OwO, what's this?"
A werewolf goes "Awoo, what's this?"
"It's nothing personal, I just don't feel like I've gotten to know a person until I've sniffed their crotch."
"We said 'no' to Mr. Curiosity. We're not home. Curiosity is not welcome, it is not to be invited in. Curiosity...is bad. It gets you in trouble, it gets you killed, and more importantly...it makes you poor!"
In ST:TMP, Kirk's communicator was in the wrist of his uniform and he was tapping the wrist to activate it.
PWE ARC Drone says: "Your STO forum community as you have known it is ended...Display names are irrelevant...Any further sense of community is irrelevant...Resistance is futile...You will be assimilated..."
"Clandestine..." "Black Ops Superspies..."
What kind of clandestine black ops superspies openly use branded merchandise that clearly identifies them as clandestine black ops superspies while also introducing themselves as clandestine black ops superspies?
This was bad writing. And bad script approval.
Dialog that reads, "Hello. We're Section 31 and we're here to use our Section 31 Devices to Section 31 information out of your prisoner," cannot be far behind.
Curse you Person that Rattles, I swore I'd never get pulled into this KaKaPoopy again!
Seriously, though, I can see why the tech may not be in wide use yet. It may be worked out enough to use sparingly in the earlier stages, but until adjacent technologies improve it may not be practical for wide everyday use. New tech is not born perfected.
I'd fire a bunch of those nincompoops.
(I hope this edit takes. My mouse has decided to double click of its own accord.)
Would you have preferred I compared them to James Bond and MI6?
It wasn't in his uniform, it was a device on his wrist if I recall.
In DSC they already have dialog that bad, though not that particular line. Usually it is to easter-egg some piece of Trek movie (or traditional series) dialog (like the "you can't navigate without a star"), but a lot of times it is a hokey attempt to increase the melodrama like the kitschy gem "You're alive! You're alive too! You're all alive!".
The combadge thing is not too far out even though it is a symptom of the "all times are the same" writing in a vacuum problem NuTrek has (in some ways it is worse than the Star Wars tech stagnation) where they get going and just use whatever is convenient to convey the effect they are going for without considering possible limits imposed by era.
To be fair though, it could have been a short-range concealed communicator like Maxwell Smart's shoephone or U.N.C.L.E. pens that (in this case) hooked into the ship/facility/whatever's subspace WiFi-equivalent local network and used a backdoor in Starfleet comms systems to piggyback its signal out. That way they would not need the heftier transmitters and powersources of the handhelds.
Diane Duane used a similar idea of tapping into that network in her Dreadnaught Trek novel so the concept was solidly out in the wilds of the fan scene for a long time, and some of those ideas eventually end up canonized in one way or another.
Section 31 was never handled well. It is treated as if they cannot decide if it is a public face of the Federation intelligence apparatus with its black badges, special ships, and other distinctive gear, or if it is a shadowy organization with no oversight. Properly, if they are trying to be a CIA analog with a conspiracy theory deep core, they should have a public face with council oversight and their gear, and a secret inner cabal that operates without oversight but never talks about it to outsiders like Starfleet officers and does not use identifiable gear.
Kirk's wristcom looked like one of today's Fitbit bands, but even before that Joanne Linville's Romulan commander used a comm that was either in a wristband even smaller than that, or built into the fabric of her uniform sleeve (she was supposed to use one of the TOS Klingon communicators but someone forgot to give her the prop so she talked into her sleeve instead to keep from blowing the take).
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He does more than just give Tyler a look:
I wish the scene was on YouTube so I could link the whole thing instead of just gifs, but it doesn't seem to be.
Impossible! What kind of magic touchy-talkie device is that!? Everybody knows you can only talk on a flippy-talkie!
Get the Forums Enhancement Extension!
#LegalizeAwoo
A normie goes "Oh, what's this?"
An otaku goes "UwU, what's this?"
A furry goes "OwO, what's this?"
A werewolf goes "Awoo, what's this?"
"It's nothing personal, I just don't feel like I've gotten to know a person until I've sniffed their crotch."
"We said 'no' to Mr. Curiosity. We're not home. Curiosity is not welcome, it is not to be invited in. Curiosity...is bad. It gets you in trouble, it gets you killed, and more importantly...it makes you poor!"
I'll grant a tech-unsavy person from the 1980's that reaction. Not starship captain Christopher Pike in the 23rd century
If it had to be acknowledged at all, maybe something along the lines of "that communicator isn't standard-issue" or whatever. But like that? It's a LOL! refrence.
Get the Forums Enhancement Extension!
You see DSC as "every kind of technology imaginable", mostly because you don't seem to like it and look for chances to dump on it. Pike, as someone who lives in that universe, is used to a certain amount of magical-seeming technology - transporters, faster-than-light travel, that sort of thing. It's not "every sort of technology", it's "progress doesn't freeze". Incredulity, in such a world, is the rational response to being presented with something that seems so plainly impossible, yet clearly exists. (Along with maybe a fraction of, "why don't I get one of those??")
I just use this scene (one of my favorites from TRIBBLE S2 with Pike):
PWE ARC Drone says: "Your STO forum community as you have known it is ended...Display names are irrelevant...Any further sense of community is irrelevant...Resistance is futile...You will be assimilated..."
Beat me to it.
To be fair, We haven't really followed the correct "Prime Timeline" since "The Naked Time" TOS S01E04, the so called "Prime Timeline" that most Trekkies know of is actually a bunch of temporal anomalies piled on top of each other.
Is it possible that some of these aborted timelines, like the Confederation timeline, still exists thanks to Multiverse Theory? Possible. But Star Trek's portrayal of time travel and alternate events tends to be whatever the script calls for, as sometimes events affect the Prime Timeline and the damage must be repaired to restore the course of history (Confed Timeline in Picard), while others branch off (Kelvin Timeline).
well theoretically one could say Section 31 started out semi-legitimate
sometime they messed up badly enough they had to go into hiding
I would say creating a super AI that was going to erase organic life would qualify
STO seems to allude to them returning to semi-legitimacy
please it's an Apple watch!