It is true that Trek has always contained inconsistencies. Kurtzman and the other people running the show(s) aren't the only ones to blame in that regard.
For me personally though, it's the first time it has begun to bother me. That's because - indeed - I didn't watch all of the older shows. As a 90s kid I grew up watching Voyager and then Enterprise. No DS9 because, for some reason, it was broadcast very late in the evening here in the Netherlands. TNG - which was briefly available through Syfy - seemed too boring to me. The series that is, the movies were more interesting.
Of course I knew that Archer wasn't supposed to be the first one to encounter the Ferengi or the Borg. But I didn't care as much about this discrepancy because I hadn't grown up with those other shows that were being contradicted by the (then) current series.
Things are different if you have actually seen stuff previously and it's all changed... just because. Or when stuff is undone only so that the new heroes (and creative staff) can leave their mark on the franchise.
Any fair person would readily admit that there have always been inconsistencies in Star Trek. But that doesn't mean that those inconsistencies are going to be treated the same. People just care more about the things they've become familiar with and changes to that can be difficult to accept. So it's only natural, I think, that some of the more recent inconsistencies are more irksome than discrepancies from longer ago. It may be that the hate and rage over inconsistencies is silly and irrational - but that doesn't mean that it should be less explicable or understandable.
To be fair, I wouldn't be surprised if the current inconsistencies are going to be hated less over time. I've seen plenty of comments (on YouTube especially) of people who didn't like ENT before but who could appreciate it now. Things will probably develop the same way for Discovery, Picard and other currently running shows.
I would venture to state that a significant element at play is that many of these concerns could have been easily avoided by simply not setting shows in the IP's past. This was a mistake from the conception of Enterprise and it hasn't gotten any better when tried again. And again.
At least when shows are set going forward you can excuse a mistake by saying that Character X is bad at history, or Technology X was held in reserve and/or classified.
(My Quote-Fu is garbage)
I agree.
From day 1 I said it wasn't the best choice, and I was personally disappointed as well because another reboot/show in the past didn't do anything in moving the story forward.
It seems that the team behind Discovery has found out what you said too.
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rattler2Member, Star Trek Online ModeratorPosts: 58,045Community Moderator
On the other hand Strange New Worlds, despite still being set before TOS, is a HUGE success. A lot of people love Pike.
Enterprise was fine because it was set in a time period not really touched at all. And if the show had not been canceled, we would have had the Earth-Romulan War.
I personally didn't mind Discovery being in the past either. Hell I still feel that the time between the Ent-B and Ent-D is worth exploring because... well... we don't know what the Enterprise-B or C really did. We just know C sacrificed herself fighting the Romulans in defense of a Klingon colony.
It is true that Trek has always contained inconsistencies. Kurtzman and the other people running the show(s) aren't the only ones to blame in that regard.
For me personally though, it's the first time it has begun to bother me. That's because - indeed - I didn't watch all of the older shows. As a 90s kid I grew up watching Voyager and then Enterprise. No DS9 because, for some reason, it was broadcast very late in the evening here in the Netherlands. TNG - which was briefly available through Syfy - seemed too boring to me. The series that is, the movies were more interesting.
Of course I knew that Archer wasn't supposed to be the first one to encounter the Ferengi or the Borg. But I didn't care as much about this discrepancy because I hadn't grown up with those other shows that were being contradicted by the (then) current series.
Things are different if you have actually seen stuff previously and it's all changed... just because. Or when stuff is undone only so that the new heroes (and creative staff) can leave their mark on the franchise.
Any fair person would readily admit that there have always been inconsistencies in Star Trek. But that doesn't mean that those inconsistencies are going to be treated the same. People just care more about the things they've become familiar with and changes to that can be difficult to accept. So it's only natural, I think, that some of the more recent inconsistencies are more irksome than discrepancies from longer ago. It may be that the hate and rage over inconsistencies is silly and irrational - but that doesn't mean that it should be less explicable or understandable.
To be fair, I wouldn't be surprised if the current inconsistencies are going to be hated less over time. I've seen plenty of comments (on YouTube especially) of people who didn't like ENT before but who could appreciate it now. Things will probably develop the same way for Discovery, Picard and other currently running shows.
I would venture to state that a significant element at play is that many of these concerns could have been easily avoided by simply not setting shows in the IP's past. This was a mistake from the conception of Enterprise and it hasn't gotten any better when tried again. And again.
At least when shows are set going forward you can excuse a mistake by saying that Character X is bad at history, or Technology X was held in reserve and/or classified.
(My Quote-Fu is garbage)
I actually liked Enterprise and wish it had lasted five seasons instead of four and had the Earth-Romulan War, I even signed a petition at the time to get S5 of Enterprise, it sadly never came to be. Instead of certain Trekkies giving it a chance, they were vehemently against it which pretty much led to its cancellation as well as network executives being themselves. Also, of course the technology is going to look more advanced, it is not filmed in the 1960s like TOS was. I have no problem with prequels. As for inconsistencies, Star Trek as a whole has not always been consistent itself. With that said when it comes to retcons, we will get to that bridge when we need to.
I would venture to state that a significant element at play is that many of these concerns could have been easily avoided by simply not setting shows in the IP's past. This was a mistake from the conception of Enterprise and it hasn't gotten any better when tried again.
None of the prequel shows' problems have come from the fact that they were a prequel.
1) Enterprise as a concept was fine, it just needed better writing. If they'd worked on building towards the Romulan War from day one and put less of a focus on the Temporal Cold War (or dropped it altogether), then I think it would have been a lot more popular. The Romulans should have had a similar role to the Shadows from Babylon 5, a dangerous enemy secretly manipulating things behind the scenes in early seasons, then becoming the primary antagonist in later seasons as the war officially begins.
2) Discovery had it's issues in season 1, but except for the holographic communications those issues had nothing to do with the timeline. The producers shot themselves in the foot with their disastrous visual redesign of the Klingons and their ships, an idiotic decision that turned off a LOT of fans before the first episode even aired. Then they introduced the main character by simultaneously having her be generally unlikable, and having her commit an absolutely unforgivable act in the very first episode. She did eventually develop into a likeable character, but since she didn't start off that way it turned off even more fans, and no matter how likable she has become her attempted mutiny in the pilot is still unforgivable.
3) Strange New Worlds is simply AMAZING, and proof that prequels are not an inherently bad idea. Literally the only problems I have with this series are that the phasers aren't blue, and that the hand phasers still fire bolts instead of beams.
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rattler2Member, Star Trek Online ModeratorPosts: 58,045Community Moderator
Enterprise was actually fairly careful with canon except the ferengi and t'pol being in starfleet
IMO T'pol gets a pass as that was a field commission. She never went to Starfleet Academy. Also it could be argued that United Earth Starfleet is not quite the same as UFP Starfleet. So IMO T'pol being in Starfleet is a gray area pass.
I would venture to state that a significant element at play is that many of these concerns could have been easily avoided by simply not setting shows in the IP's past. This was a mistake from the conception of Enterprise and it hasn't gotten any better when tried again.
None of the prequel shows' problems have come from the fact that they were a prequel.
1) Enterprise as a concept was fine, it just needed better writing. If they'd worked on building towards the Romulan War from day one and put less of a focus on the Temporal Cold War (or dropped it altogether), then I think it would have been a lot more popular. The Romulans should have had a similar role to the Shadows from Babylon 5, a dangerous enemy secretly manipulating things behind the scenes in early seasons, then becoming the primary antagonist in later seasons as the war officially begins.
2) Discovery had it's issues in season 1, but except for the holographic communications those issues had nothing to do with the timeline. The producers shot themselves in the foot with their disastrous visual redesign of the Klingons and their ships, an idiotic decision that turned off a LOT of fans before the first episode even aired. Then they introduced the main character by simultaneously having her be generally unlikable, and having her commit an absolutely unforgivable act in the very first episode. She did eventually develop into a likeable character, but since she didn't start off that way it turned off even more fans, and no matter how likable she has become her attempted mutiny in the pilot is still unforgivable.
3) Strange New Worlds is simply AMAZING, and proof that prequels are not an inherently bad idea. Literally the only problems I have with this series are that the phasers aren't blue, and that the hand phasers still fire bolts instead of beams.
I think I did not communicate my point well enough.
I'm not saying that prequels are autobad and should feel badly bad. I'm just pointing out one way that they are a riskier proposition.
Even I think that Enterprise has some good points. However the Temporal Cold War, just by its name, immediately put me into, "oh shut-up," mode. Not to mention that Enterprise underestimated the value of a good theme tune, but that's another story. (Honestly, one of the better Star Trek theme tunes out there is STO's)
Any observation I have about Discovery or Picard with start a fight that none of us wants, even though my observations there are objective, so I refrain.
Strange New Worlds is the outlier of "Nu Trek," as far as I'm concerned. From what I have seen it is much better at being a show than the rest, but still relies too heavily on established characters and stories set in its future, even though an argument can be made that it makes sense for a Pike-centric series.
I kind of wish Anson Mount could have played that era's captain of another ship, say, the Excaliber or, dare I say, the Constitution.
but that would be getting into another topic entirely.
They didn't underestimate it - Enterprise DID have a good theme...they just played it during the credits when they should've been playing it during the intro.
A normie goes "Oh, what's this?"
An otaku goes "UwU, what's this?"
A furry goes "OwO, what's this?"
A werewolf goes "Awoo, what's this?"
"It's nothing personal, I just don't feel like I've gotten to know a person until I've sniffed their crotch." "We said 'no' to Mr. Curiosity. We're not home. Curiosity is not welcome, it is not to be invited in. Curiosity...is bad. It gets you in trouble, it gets you killed, and more importantly...it makes you poor!"
Passion and Serenity are one.
I gain power by understanding both.
In the chaos of their battle, I bring order.
I am a shadow, darkness born from light.
The Force is united within me.
They didn't underestimate it - Enterprise DID have a good theme...they just played it during the credits when they should've been playing it during the intro.
I personally loved Faith of the Heart (season 1+2 version). It may have been different in comparison to other Trek themes, but imo it perfectly captured the spirit of the show: humanity taking it's first steps out into the stars.
I agree, Enteprise's concept was fine. It was just watered down so much it was bearly believable any more. Through executive decision the runners pushed 'brand recognition' so hard that it was basically TNG with visuals and technology - even if thinly veiled by giving it slightly different names - screaming "you know this, this is TNG, keep watching!" at every corner. The NX-class itself was supposed to be an Akira class ship fromt he movies, phasers and photon torpedoes shouldn't have been available and putting all the TNG races in there was unnecessary. And the temporal cold war was the dumbest story line ever.
If they basically had made something like SNW in that era it'd have been fine.
^ Memory Alpha.org is not canon. It's a open wiki with arbitrary rules. Only what can be cited from an episode is. ^
"No. Men do not roar. Women roar. Then they hurl heavy objects... and claw at you." -Worf, son of Mogh
"A filthy, mangy beast, but in its bony breast beat the heart of a warrior" - "faithful" (...) "but ever-ready to follow the call of the wild." - Martok, about a Targ
"That pig smelled horrid. A sweet-sour, extremely pungent odor. I showered and showered, and it took me a week to get rid of it!" - Robert Justman, appreciating Emmy-Lou
For myself, "Temporal Cold War" made me remember the Fritz Leiber Change War stories - two sides, coded as "Snakes" and "Spiders", making changes to history that aid their side and hamper the other, with agents fighting against each other to either make or prevent such changes. (They recruited from those who were about to die, and the timestream had a sort of inertia so they weren't worried about agents trying to save their own lives. One story, "Try and Change the Past", dealt with that very issue, with a man who was about to be shot in the head trying to change his own history to prevent this. Finally managed to eliminate any possibility that he or anyone else might even accidentally discharge a shot into his head, stepped out on his balcony - and a bullet-sized meteor struck him in the forehead.)
So I was familiar with the idea, is what I'm getting at here. Also with Niven's First Law of Time Travel: in any universe that allows for time travel and changing the past, time travel will never be invented. Eventually, history will get so screwed up that someone will decide the only way to fix it is to stop the inventor of time travel before he can succeed. (This is also referenced at the end of VOY:"Year of Hell Pt. 2".)
I never had any problem with the temporal cold war plot thread, it was the only thing that made a reconciliation between ENT and TOS possible, a fact that the creators of the series realized early on themselves in light of Paramount wanting it to be essentially TNG with only a thin veneer of "the past" about it. The original idea was for ENT to use the plasma pistols and cannons, and the nuclear missiles (which were mentioned in Balance of Terror) for the entire series but the Paramount execs put the kibosh on that with their insistence on using the Akira and all other familiar stuff from later in the timeline.
It also provided some extra justification for some of the movie continuity gaffs, like First Contact being incompatible with Metamorphosis from TOS and other problems caused by Paramount Pictures not wanting to color within the lines set by Paramount TV division.
and the nuclear missiles (which were mentioned in Balance of Terror)
I know that was mentioned on screen, but imo that's one of many things from TOS (particularly Balance of Terror) that should just be ignored and retconned out (I'm glad it hasn't been mentioned in SNW so far). Other things I think should be ignored include the T'liss only having "simple impulse", and the Romulan plasma torpedo somehow accelerating from impulse speeds to a speed greater than maximum warp. TOS may have started it all, but things like that just don't make sense. Even the lack of visual communication with the Romulans before BoT doesn't really make sense, but that detail is so integral to the story that there's no way to retcon it.
(...)Even the lack of visual communication with the Romulans before BoT doesn't really make sense, but that detail is so integral to the story that there's no way to retcon it.
That could be easily reconciled though - it makes little sense that the technology wasn't able to provide visual communication, but it'd be easy to just say the Romulans simply didn't want to show themselves.
^ Memory Alpha.org is not canon. It's a open wiki with arbitrary rules. Only what can be cited from an episode is. ^
"No. Men do not roar. Women roar. Then they hurl heavy objects... and claw at you." -Worf, son of Mogh
"A filthy, mangy beast, but in its bony breast beat the heart of a warrior" - "faithful" (...) "but ever-ready to follow the call of the wild." - Martok, about a Targ
"That pig smelled horrid. A sweet-sour, extremely pungent odor. I showered and showered, and it took me a week to get rid of it!" - Robert Justman, appreciating Emmy-Lou
(...)Even the lack of visual communication with the Romulans before BoT doesn't really make sense, but that detail is so integral to the story that there's no way to retcon it.
That could be easily reconciled though - it makes little sense that the technology wasn't able to provide visual communication, but it'd be easy to just say the Romulans simply didn't want to show themselves.
That's pretty much how it's explained, at least in ancillary materials. They destroyed their ships to prevent any information from falling into Earth's hands, including any information about what they looked like; and their communications with Earth ships during the war were voice-only. Even the treaty ending the war was negotiated over subspace radio, with no visuals at all.
and the nuclear missiles (which were mentioned in Balance of Terror)
I know that was mentioned on screen, but imo that's one of many things from TOS (particularly Balance of Terror) that should just be ignored and retconned out (I'm glad it hasn't been mentioned in SNW so far). Other things I think should be ignored include the T'liss only having "simple impulse", and the Romulan plasma torpedo somehow accelerating from impulse speeds to a speed greater than maximum warp. TOS may have started it all, but things like that just don't make sense. Even the lack of visual communication with the Romulans before BoT doesn't really make sense, but that detail is so integral to the story that there's no way to retcon it.
The greatest strength of a fictional universe is its history and coherency making the setting come alive for the viewers/readers, and you would prefer they gave that all up for arbitrary changes instead? Very curious point of view, to say the least, especially as applies to Trek where the fanbase tends to scrutinize details and dislike arbitrariness even more than fans of other shows, to the point where it has become a meme well established enough that in the Galaxy Quest movie it was a major part of the plot, and other shows have joked about or otherwise referred to it as well.
The best path in Trek has always been to come up with a plausible explanation for any anomalies instead of using what passes for retcons nowadays, anything else just causes trouble and fractures the fanbase further.
As for the nuclear missiles, they are necessary for the plot point to work in Balance of Terror. Because of the sensor technology Trek has, any "modern" weapon from their point of view would have been detected as such before the Enterprise got close enough for it to be a danger, but something like a nuclear warhead is so old that it was probably overlooked as part of something else, like perhaps a secondary reactor or whatever, so it was worth a try for Romulans to use it as a trap.
As for the "simple impulse" thing, it really did start out as the writer not having any idea about just how big space is or that it would take at least a year to travel from one outpost to the next at sublight speeds, but the official explanation from Paramount (back when they still bothered to do that) was that Scotty just did not recognize the Romulan FTL drive as such from the readings since it wasn't anything like what the Federation and Klingons used. So they could go FTL, just not very fast (because of the needs of the moral of the story) until they started using the warp-driven D7s they got from the Klingons (and apparently the KDF got Romulan cloaking tech in exchange for the ships from what The Search for Spock implies).
The plasma torpedo got up to a little over warp eight (TOS scale, or about 6.5 TNG scale) when it hit, which is hardly "a speed greater than maximum warp" (for instance, Kirk has ordered warp 9 on at least one occasion). The problem was that the Enterprise could not accelerate fast enough (and in reverse no less) to avoid it altogether.
you would prefer they gave that all up for arbitrary changes instead?
When it comes to inconsistencies and things that simply don't make sense, absolutely I would. The use of retcons is something that should be done very carefully and infrequently, but for things like this it is a very valuable tool. The Trek universe hadn't been fully fleshed out yet during TOS, so it's only natural that it occasionally conflicts with later Trek, basic logic, and even itself at times.
The best path in Trek has always been to come up with a plausible explanation for any anomalies
This is fine in some instances, but in others it becomes painfully obvious that the writers are simply trying to dance around previous material that no longer makes sense, or in some cases never made sense to begin with.
As for the nuclear missiles, they are necessary for the plot point to work in Balance of Terror. Because of the sensor technology Trek has, any "modern" weapon from their point of view would have been detected as such before the Enterprise got close enough for it to be a danger, but something like a nuclear warhead is so old that it was probably overlooked as part of something else, like perhaps a secondary reactor or whatever, so it was worth a try for Romulans to use it as a trap.
The use of a nuclear weapon in the Romulan trap doesn't bother me that much (though I would expect them to need to fabricate it rather than having one ready to go), it's the description of the Romulan War as having been fought with nukes that has always annoyed me. Star Trek Legacy came up with a workable explanation for that, but I still think it would be better to simply disregard that line of dialogue altogether.
The plasma torpedo got up to a little over warp eight (TOS scale, or about 6.5 TNG scale) when it hit, which is hardly "a speed greater than maximum warp" (for instance, Kirk has ordered warp 9 on at least one occasion). The problem was that the Enterprise could not accelerate fast enough (and in reverse no less) to avoid it altogether.
Regardless of exactly what speed the torpedo achieved, the real problem is that to accelerate from impulse to warp speed the torpedo itself would need it's own warp drive, which it clearly did not have since it was basically just a ball of gas that dissipated with distance.
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rattler2Member, Star Trek Online ModeratorPosts: 58,045Community Moderator
The use of a nuclear weapon in the Romulan trap doesn't bother me that much (though I would expect them to need to fabricate it rather than having one ready to go), it's the description of the Romulan War as having been fought with nukes that has always annoyed me. Star Trek Legacy came up with a workable explanation for that, but I still think it would be better to simply disregard that line of dialogue altogether.
Yea. I also like how Legacy approached the situation. Also my theory is that the old Spatial Torpedoes that the NX-01 had might have been nuclear as well. But since they were so frickin' slow...
I doubt the entire fleet got the Photonic Torpedo upgrade by the time of the Earth-Romulan War so they might have seen use.
Slower than they should've been...we have ATMOSPHERIC missiles that are faster - and not even hypersonic ones either - and planetside use has to deal with friction and drag slowing them down.
A normie goes "Oh, what's this?"
An otaku goes "UwU, what's this?"
A furry goes "OwO, what's this?"
A werewolf goes "Awoo, what's this?"
"It's nothing personal, I just don't feel like I've gotten to know a person until I've sniffed their crotch." "We said 'no' to Mr. Curiosity. We're not home. Curiosity is not welcome, it is not to be invited in. Curiosity...is bad. It gets you in trouble, it gets you killed, and more importantly...it makes you poor!"
Passion and Serenity are one.
I gain power by understanding both.
In the chaos of their battle, I bring order.
I am a shadow, darkness born from light.
The Force is united within me.
you would prefer they gave that all up for arbitrary changes instead?
When it comes to inconsistencies and things that simply don't make sense, absolutely I would. The use of retcons is something that should be done very carefully and infrequently, but for things like this it is a very valuable tool. The Trek universe hadn't been fully fleshed out yet during TOS, so it's only natural that it occasionally conflicts with later Trek, basic logic, and even itself at times.
Admittedly it is subjective, but in Trek the retcons often make less sense than the problems they are meant to solve, usually because the person doing it does not understand what the original was supposed to be, or because they did not think out what the ramifications of the change would be. The old writing axiom of "when it comes to retcons, less is always more", is almost always right.
Also, TOS was more fleshed out than it gets credit for nowadays. Roddenberry was a firm believer in "show, don't tell" and instructed the writers to not do what is now called "technobabble" fests that so often infested sci-fi. In fact, he used a number of cop show examples, (like how cops don't do things like talk to each other about how their guns work, they just use them), in the series bible to explain that basic-but-often-overlooked tennet of good writing to anyone wanting to write an episode.
Unfortunately, that also makes people guess a lot about what they are seeing, (and often those guesses are wrong), and to assume that things were less set than they were because their guesses do not always line up in a sensible way since they did not know the underlying reasons when making those guesses.
Also, they often try to apply modern scientific theories to TOS and when they do not agree with what is shown in the show assume that the original writers ignored the science advisor instead of realizing the scientific theories themselves were different back then, which does not exactly help the situation either. They used oldschool quantum theory and just the wispy beginnings of early string theory (string theory was first published in 1969 but like most things it was not a total secret before that).
In a lot of cases the TOS background framework was there if you dive into the show's internal documentation, but under a different name or lacking a name entirely, for instance Roddenberry just referred to what became the Federation as simply "the interstellar community" and did not have a particular name for it until Gene Coon came up with "The United Federation of Planets".
However, even in that nameless state it was firmly established in that internal documentation to be the allegory of the United Nations and they wrote the show accordingly (though people tended to mistake it for the United States instead). The UESPA introduction was not a mistake if you follow the allegory, the UN Peacekeeping forces (and NATO for that matter for the more US-centric interpretation) are indeed set up using whole units contributed by the members so it is not a stretch to imagine Starfleet would be the same way. The change to introducing the ship as UFP Starfleet instead is most easily and smoothly explained as part of an ongoing administrative change to streamline the service which would ultimately end up as the completely homogenized organization seen later on.
DSC really dropped the ball on that one btw, they could have very easily cashed in on the potential of it instead. The potential for inter-unit bickering would have matched what they showed a lot better, and the war would have been the perfect impetus for getting rid of the last vestiges of alliance structure in favor of a tighter, more efficient, completely unified command and logistical structure. It also had a lot of potential for uniform differences that actually made sense and avoided the incredibly hokey "well we did get the snazzy uniforms" (or something to that effect) line in the s2 premiere.
The best path in Trek has always been to come up with a plausible explanation for any anomalies
This is fine in some instances, but in others it becomes painfully obvious that the writers are simply trying to dance around previous material that no longer makes sense, or in some cases never made sense to begin with.
That is true, but all too often it leads to the even worse situation above, where the defacto retcon the waffling causes makes less sense than the problem itself. And in the case of Trek that dancing around is all too often caused by the new writer not understanding what the original writer was trying to say, or apparently never heard of the original clarification from Paramount, or simply didn't like either one of those things and waffled about it expecting a polish writer to take care of the problem in the final draft.
I cannot completely blame that hypothetical new writer for waffling though, from doing tabletop RPG campaigns set in the Trek universe (with several dyed-in-the-wool Trekkies in the group jumping on any inaccuracies no less) I know firsthand how hard it is to write scenarios/stories in it with the vast body of material already out there. However, the solution is still to take the original circumstances and ideas (as well as past clarifications) into account in order to come up with resolution to the problem that is itself closer to a clarification than an arbitrary, pulled out of the behind, retcon.
As for the nuclear missiles, they are necessary for the plot point to work in Balance of Terror. Because of the sensor technology Trek has, any "modern" weapon from their point of view would have been detected as such before the Enterprise got close enough for it to be a danger, but something like a nuclear warhead is so old that it was probably overlooked as part of something else, like perhaps a secondary reactor or whatever, so it was worth a try for Romulans to use it as a trap.
The use of a nuclear weapon in the Romulan trap doesn't bother me that much (though I would expect them to need to fabricate it rather than having one ready to go), it's the description of the Romulan War as having been fought with nukes that has always annoyed me. Star Trek Legacy came up with a workable explanation for that, but I still think it would be better to simply disregard that line of dialogue altogether.
They had the nuclear warhead ready to go because the Romulans recycled their stockpile of missile warheads into scuttling charges to destroy their ships in potential capture situations so the enemy has nothing left to analyze.
The plasma torpedo got up to a little over warp eight (TOS scale, or about 6.5 TNG scale) when it hit, which is hardly "a speed greater than maximum warp" (for instance, Kirk has ordered warp 9 on at least one occasion). The problem was that the Enterprise could not accelerate fast enough (and in reverse no less) to avoid it altogether.
Regardless of exactly what speed the torpedo achieved, the real problem is that to accelerate from impulse to warp speed the torpedo itself would need it's own warp drive, which it clearly did not have since it was basically just a ball of gas that dissipated with distance.
It would not have to be exactly "warp", just something FTL, and the Romulan tech was supposed to be quite alien compared to Federation and Klingon tech (at least when they were not recycling equipment from other civilizations, anyway). Plasma-state circuitry (it was not supposed to be simply a "ball of gas") would definitely qualify, and it was common enough in science fiction back then that it's showing up in TOS is not that surprising.
There is also the old fan theory that a plasma torpedo pretty much tractors (or sets up some kind of attraction anyway) the target and pulls itself to it rather than using independent movement, in that case the Enterprise would have been unowning towing the thing at warp speed (I am not fond of that theory btw, but it does work).
Nice to see more of one production (a Trek film or tv show) informing another (an online computer game). And, perhaps, visa versa. If STO should need to further adapt retroactively here and there? I'm totally fine with that.
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rattler2Member, Star Trek Online ModeratorPosts: 58,045Community Moderator
The Devs have said that they will try and adapt to line up with Canon where they can, but if it deviates way too much where it would basically rewrite most of the game they'll diverge.
Nice to see more of one production (a Trek film or tv show) informing another (an online computer game). And, perhaps, visa versa. If STO should need to further adapt retroactively here and there? I'm totally fine with that.
Normally I'd be leery of seeing an Enterprise F as it would mean likely a differant class then the oddessy, but the use of so many STO ships in season 2 makes me think the oddessy will be canonized
That way season 3 of Picard might provide new designs for STO. There are many 'Enterprise F' fan designs. Why not see if any of those people would accept their design to become the next Enterprise? I'm sure it would be an honour for them and if CBS could then also get permission to get the ship in the game, we'd have a new ship for the C-store.
If they decide to use the Odyssey, I hope they'll pick one of the variants with a more rounded saucer. I personally like those better than the oval shaped ones.
[4:46] [Combat {self}] Your Haymaker deals 23337 (9049) Physical Damage(Critical) to Spawnmother
If they indeed canonise the F they‘ll probably use the T5 stock Oddy because that is the original design. Plus, Cryptic’s T5 designs were better than the T6 in my opinion 😁
^ Memory Alpha.org is not canon. It's a open wiki with arbitrary rules. Only what can be cited from an episode is. ^
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rattler2Member, Star Trek Online ModeratorPosts: 58,045Community Moderator
Well... the Odyssey class is semi canon already, having appeared in a Picard tie in comic alongside the Fahet Intel Warbird. And we have had 4 STO ships canonized in Picard s2. We'll just have to wait and see.
If they indeed canonise the F they‘ll probably use the T5 stock Oddy because that is the original design. Plus, Cryptic’s T5 designs were better than the T6 in my opinion 😁
If you compare the original Odyssey to the T6 Endeavour for example, I wholeheartedly agree. But that's mostly because the Endeavour seems to have a lower resolution or something like that on its saucer (don't know the exact word to describe it).
The Sojourner and Verity variants on the other hand are pretty good looking imo. Their saucers also make them more natural successors to the Galaxy and Sovereign classes.
[4:46] [Combat {self}] Your Haymaker deals 23337 (9049) Physical Damage(Critical) to Spawnmother
If they do retain the Odyssey then continuity is preserved and the refit would make a lot more sense. Always seemed a bit weird it would get some design changes only a year after service. Although it does feel a bit early to retire the E in 2402. Starships aren't like real life ships they should have much longer service histories. I'm pretty sure some Miranda and Excelsior classes in the Dominion War had been around for a good while.
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I agree.
From day 1 I said it wasn't the best choice, and I was personally disappointed as well because another reboot/show in the past didn't do anything in moving the story forward.
It seems that the team behind Discovery has found out what you said too.
[3/25 10:41][Combat (Self)]Your Haymaker deals 26187 (10692) Physical Damage(Critical) to Orinoco.
Enterprise was fine because it was set in a time period not really touched at all. And if the show had not been canceled, we would have had the Earth-Romulan War.
I personally didn't mind Discovery being in the past either. Hell I still feel that the time between the Ent-B and Ent-D is worth exploring because... well... we don't know what the Enterprise-B or C really did. We just know C sacrificed herself fighting the Romulans in defense of a Klingon colony.
I actually liked Enterprise and wish it had lasted five seasons instead of four and had the Earth-Romulan War, I even signed a petition at the time to get S5 of Enterprise, it sadly never came to be. Instead of certain Trekkies giving it a chance, they were vehemently against it which pretty much led to its cancellation as well as network executives being themselves. Also, of course the technology is going to look more advanced, it is not filmed in the 1960s like TOS was. I have no problem with prequels. As for inconsistencies, Star Trek as a whole has not always been consistent itself. With that said when it comes to retcons, we will get to that bridge when we need to.
None of the prequel shows' problems have come from the fact that they were a prequel.
1) Enterprise as a concept was fine, it just needed better writing. If they'd worked on building towards the Romulan War from day one and put less of a focus on the Temporal Cold War (or dropped it altogether), then I think it would have been a lot more popular. The Romulans should have had a similar role to the Shadows from Babylon 5, a dangerous enemy secretly manipulating things behind the scenes in early seasons, then becoming the primary antagonist in later seasons as the war officially begins.
2) Discovery had it's issues in season 1, but except for the holographic communications those issues had nothing to do with the timeline. The producers shot themselves in the foot with their disastrous visual redesign of the Klingons and their ships, an idiotic decision that turned off a LOT of fans before the first episode even aired. Then they introduced the main character by simultaneously having her be generally unlikable, and having her commit an absolutely unforgivable act in the very first episode. She did eventually develop into a likeable character, but since she didn't start off that way it turned off even more fans, and no matter how likable she has become her attempted mutiny in the pilot is still unforgivable.
3) Strange New Worlds is simply AMAZING, and proof that prequels are not an inherently bad idea. Literally the only problems I have with this series are that the phasers aren't blue, and that the hand phasers still fire bolts instead of beams.
IMO T'pol gets a pass as that was a field commission. She never went to Starfleet Academy. Also it could be argued that United Earth Starfleet is not quite the same as UFP Starfleet. So IMO T'pol being in Starfleet is a gray area pass.
I think I did not communicate my point well enough.
I'm not saying that prequels are autobad and should feel badly bad. I'm just pointing out one way that they are a riskier proposition.
Even I think that Enterprise has some good points. However the Temporal Cold War, just by its name, immediately put me into, "oh shut-up," mode. Not to mention that Enterprise underestimated the value of a good theme tune, but that's another story. (Honestly, one of the better Star Trek theme tunes out there is STO's)
Any observation I have about Discovery or Picard with start a fight that none of us wants, even though my observations there are objective, so I refrain.
Strange New Worlds is the outlier of "Nu Trek," as far as I'm concerned. From what I have seen it is much better at being a show than the rest, but still relies too heavily on established characters and stories set in its future, even though an argument can be made that it makes sense for a Pike-centric series.
I kind of wish Anson Mount could have played that era's captain of another ship, say, the Excaliber or, dare I say, the Constitution.
but that would be getting into another topic entirely.
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I personally loved Faith of the Heart (season 1+2 version). It may have been different in comparison to other Trek themes, but imo it perfectly captured the spirit of the show: humanity taking it's first steps out into the stars.
If they basically had made something like SNW in that era it'd have been fine.
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So I was familiar with the idea, is what I'm getting at here. Also with Niven's First Law of Time Travel: in any universe that allows for time travel and changing the past, time travel will never be invented. Eventually, history will get so screwed up that someone will decide the only way to fix it is to stop the inventor of time travel before he can succeed. (This is also referenced at the end of VOY:"Year of Hell Pt. 2".)
It also provided some extra justification for some of the movie continuity gaffs, like First Contact being incompatible with Metamorphosis from TOS and other problems caused by Paramount Pictures not wanting to color within the lines set by Paramount TV division.
That could be easily reconciled though - it makes little sense that the technology wasn't able to provide visual communication, but it'd be easy to just say the Romulans simply didn't want to show themselves.
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The greatest strength of a fictional universe is its history and coherency making the setting come alive for the viewers/readers, and you would prefer they gave that all up for arbitrary changes instead? Very curious point of view, to say the least, especially as applies to Trek where the fanbase tends to scrutinize details and dislike arbitrariness even more than fans of other shows, to the point where it has become a meme well established enough that in the Galaxy Quest movie it was a major part of the plot, and other shows have joked about or otherwise referred to it as well.
The best path in Trek has always been to come up with a plausible explanation for any anomalies instead of using what passes for retcons nowadays, anything else just causes trouble and fractures the fanbase further.
As for the nuclear missiles, they are necessary for the plot point to work in Balance of Terror. Because of the sensor technology Trek has, any "modern" weapon from their point of view would have been detected as such before the Enterprise got close enough for it to be a danger, but something like a nuclear warhead is so old that it was probably overlooked as part of something else, like perhaps a secondary reactor or whatever, so it was worth a try for Romulans to use it as a trap.
As for the "simple impulse" thing, it really did start out as the writer not having any idea about just how big space is or that it would take at least a year to travel from one outpost to the next at sublight speeds, but the official explanation from Paramount (back when they still bothered to do that) was that Scotty just did not recognize the Romulan FTL drive as such from the readings since it wasn't anything like what the Federation and Klingons used. So they could go FTL, just not very fast (because of the needs of the moral of the story) until they started using the warp-driven D7s they got from the Klingons (and apparently the KDF got Romulan cloaking tech in exchange for the ships from what The Search for Spock implies).
The plasma torpedo got up to a little over warp eight (TOS scale, or about 6.5 TNG scale) when it hit, which is hardly "a speed greater than maximum warp" (for instance, Kirk has ordered warp 9 on at least one occasion). The problem was that the Enterprise could not accelerate fast enough (and in reverse no less) to avoid it altogether.
Yea. I also like how Legacy approached the situation. Also my theory is that the old Spatial Torpedoes that the NX-01 had might have been nuclear as well. But since they were so frickin' slow...
I doubt the entire fleet got the Photonic Torpedo upgrade by the time of the Earth-Romulan War so they might have seen use.
#LegalizeAwoo
A normie goes "Oh, what's this?"
An otaku goes "UwU, what's this?"
A furry goes "OwO, what's this?"
A werewolf goes "Awoo, what's this?"
"It's nothing personal, I just don't feel like I've gotten to know a person until I've sniffed their crotch."
"We said 'no' to Mr. Curiosity. We're not home. Curiosity is not welcome, it is not to be invited in. Curiosity...is bad. It gets you in trouble, it gets you killed, and more importantly...it makes you poor!"
Admittedly it is subjective, but in Trek the retcons often make less sense than the problems they are meant to solve, usually because the person doing it does not understand what the original was supposed to be, or because they did not think out what the ramifications of the change would be. The old writing axiom of "when it comes to retcons, less is always more", is almost always right.
Also, TOS was more fleshed out than it gets credit for nowadays. Roddenberry was a firm believer in "show, don't tell" and instructed the writers to not do what is now called "technobabble" fests that so often infested sci-fi. In fact, he used a number of cop show examples, (like how cops don't do things like talk to each other about how their guns work, they just use them), in the series bible to explain that basic-but-often-overlooked tennet of good writing to anyone wanting to write an episode.
Unfortunately, that also makes people guess a lot about what they are seeing, (and often those guesses are wrong), and to assume that things were less set than they were because their guesses do not always line up in a sensible way since they did not know the underlying reasons when making those guesses.
Also, they often try to apply modern scientific theories to TOS and when they do not agree with what is shown in the show assume that the original writers ignored the science advisor instead of realizing the scientific theories themselves were different back then, which does not exactly help the situation either. They used oldschool quantum theory and just the wispy beginnings of early string theory (string theory was first published in 1969 but like most things it was not a total secret before that).
In a lot of cases the TOS background framework was there if you dive into the show's internal documentation, but under a different name or lacking a name entirely, for instance Roddenberry just referred to what became the Federation as simply "the interstellar community" and did not have a particular name for it until Gene Coon came up with "The United Federation of Planets".
However, even in that nameless state it was firmly established in that internal documentation to be the allegory of the United Nations and they wrote the show accordingly (though people tended to mistake it for the United States instead). The UESPA introduction was not a mistake if you follow the allegory, the UN Peacekeeping forces (and NATO for that matter for the more US-centric interpretation) are indeed set up using whole units contributed by the members so it is not a stretch to imagine Starfleet would be the same way. The change to introducing the ship as UFP Starfleet instead is most easily and smoothly explained as part of an ongoing administrative change to streamline the service which would ultimately end up as the completely homogenized organization seen later on.
DSC really dropped the ball on that one btw, they could have very easily cashed in on the potential of it instead. The potential for inter-unit bickering would have matched what they showed a lot better, and the war would have been the perfect impetus for getting rid of the last vestiges of alliance structure in favor of a tighter, more efficient, completely unified command and logistical structure. It also had a lot of potential for uniform differences that actually made sense and avoided the incredibly hokey "well we did get the snazzy uniforms" (or something to that effect) line in the s2 premiere.
That is true, but all too often it leads to the even worse situation above, where the defacto retcon the waffling causes makes less sense than the problem itself. And in the case of Trek that dancing around is all too often caused by the new writer not understanding what the original writer was trying to say, or apparently never heard of the original clarification from Paramount, or simply didn't like either one of those things and waffled about it expecting a polish writer to take care of the problem in the final draft.
I cannot completely blame that hypothetical new writer for waffling though, from doing tabletop RPG campaigns set in the Trek universe (with several dyed-in-the-wool Trekkies in the group jumping on any inaccuracies no less) I know firsthand how hard it is to write scenarios/stories in it with the vast body of material already out there. However, the solution is still to take the original circumstances and ideas (as well as past clarifications) into account in order to come up with resolution to the problem that is itself closer to a clarification than an arbitrary, pulled out of the behind, retcon.
They had the nuclear warhead ready to go because the Romulans recycled their stockpile of missile warheads into scuttling charges to destroy their ships in potential capture situations so the enemy has nothing left to analyze.
It would not have to be exactly "warp", just something FTL, and the Romulan tech was supposed to be quite alien compared to Federation and Klingon tech (at least when they were not recycling equipment from other civilizations, anyway). Plasma-state circuitry (it was not supposed to be simply a "ball of gas") would definitely qualify, and it was common enough in science fiction back then that it's showing up in TOS is not that surprising.
There is also the old fan theory that a plasma torpedo pretty much tractors (or sets up some kind of attraction anyway) the target and pulls itself to it rather than using independent movement, in that case the Enterprise would have been unowning towing the thing at warp speed (I am not fond of that theory btw, but it does work).
https://screenrant.com/star-trek-picard-season-3-enterprise-ships/
Nice to see more of one production (a Trek film or tv show) informing another (an online computer game). And, perhaps, visa versa. If STO should need to further adapt retroactively here and there? I'm totally fine with that.
Normally I'd be leery of seeing an Enterprise F as it would mean likely a differant class then the oddessy, but the use of so many STO ships in season 2 makes me think the oddessy will be canonized
That way season 3 of Picard might provide new designs for STO. There are many 'Enterprise F' fan designs. Why not see if any of those people would accept their design to become the next Enterprise? I'm sure it would be an honour for them and if CBS could then also get permission to get the ship in the game, we'd have a new ship for the C-store.
If they decide to use the Odyssey, I hope they'll pick one of the variants with a more rounded saucer. I personally like those better than the oval shaped ones.
[3/25 10:41][Combat (Self)]Your Haymaker deals 26187 (10692) Physical Damage(Critical) to Orinoco.
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If you compare the original Odyssey to the T6 Endeavour for example, I wholeheartedly agree. But that's mostly because the Endeavour seems to have a lower resolution or something like that on its saucer (don't know the exact word to describe it).
The Sojourner and Verity variants on the other hand are pretty good looking imo. Their saucers also make them more natural successors to the Galaxy and Sovereign classes.
[3/25 10:41][Combat (Self)]Your Haymaker deals 26187 (10692) Physical Damage(Critical) to Orinoco.