Not so much supply and demand....it's 'we want more money!'. Remember the so-called energy crisis of the 70s? Was not about supply and demand, it was about the energy cartels/pimps simply wanting MORE money.
I'm talking about player sales of lockbox ships. Again... is someone really going to want to open and sell a Benthan Assault Cruiser or the new shiny Cali class?
Older ships are more expensive because fewer people are selling them, allowing for the seller to basically set their own price, however the likelyhood of it selling at all is low because few people want a Benthan Assault Cruiser nowadays. (Low Supply/Low Demand)
Newer ships can be more expensive based on the desirability of the ship, in this case the Cali is a canon ship and thus more desireable. (Going to be High Supply/High Demand)
If you were selling a T6 lockbox ship, which would you put up for sale? The old Benthan Assault Cruiser or the latest shiny? Which would sell faster and better? I bet you nine times out of ten it will be the latest shiny.
With giving players the choice in the Infinity Box, most will lean more towards the newer ships over the older ones. There is no cabal of lockbox cartels trying to corner the market on older ships. Its just that people aren't picking those older ships as often as they do the newer ones.
A Mirror Engle is going to be worth a lot more than the Benthan Assault Cruiser because of the desirable trait (Which is better: Superior Area Denial or Load Viral Torpedo?). The Cali is going to be worth a lot more because of it being a canon ship over the Tholian Tarantula.
There are many factors in play, the state of the in game econony, the desirability of a ship, the number of ships available...
Many things. Is player greed part of it? Maybe. But its not the sole driving factor you're making it out to be.
(1) Cryptic's: they have UNLIMITED "supply" of theses ships, which is why their low drop rate is so sleazy.
(2) The exchange (from other players): this supply level will depend on how much people actually want the ship. And this part is where it gets really complicated, because it depends on all of the following:
A: the sleazy drop rate referenced earlier
B: the amount actually put up for sale on the exchange
C: the demand from the market (which will both reduce the amount available on the exchange AND cause other sellers to want to put theirs up for sale if they know they are selling well)
D : competing sellers driving each others prices down
But at the end of the day, it's Cryptic's gambling mechanics and sleazy low drop rates that cause this entire situation, not the players selling ships on the exchange. ALL of the anger about this should be aimed squarely at Cryptic, not the players selling the ship. Just be thankful there are people selling the ships on the exchange at all, because that is your only way to get them without gambling.
and again, the duality of sides being taken about the law of averages validating ones point of view, while not taking into consideration another point of view.
one can explain away all types of details that break down how a cost is valued for a ship, but that still doesnt validate it per the other persons PoV about how they see it.
it was a TRIBBLE move that this was but into a box. i think it was a money grab move, (one of the many made in the past few years - my view - ymmv), and it shows a lack of focus on access for such a ship for ALL players, less a LB gamble metric.
moves like this and lack of attention to addressing bugs, and continual crybaby high pitched whines about how small the team is (i.e i wear 16 hats etc.), has gotten me much outside time as the weather warms up. ive logged in a total if like 3 times in the past few months. i no longer can appreciate "ship of the month" club as many others do and can. again, my take, ymmv.
i even have lots of zen left over still to have wanted to purchase it. but oh well.
Something we sure can all agree on this ship should have not been in a gamble box. It should have been in the C-Store or free through an event. Also having different points of view is an asset not an issue.
C-Store Inc. is still looking for active members on the fed side. If you don't have a fleet feel free to contact me in game @stegi.
(1) Cryptic's: they have UNLIMITED "supply" of theses ships, which is why their low drop rate is so sleazy.
(2) The exchange (from other players): this supply level will depend on how much people actually want the ship. And this part is where it gets really complicated, because it depends on all of the following:
A: the sleazy drop rate referenced earlier
B: the amount actually put up for sale on the exchange
C: the demand from the market (which will both reduce the amount available on the exchange AND cause other sellers to want to put theirs up for sale if they know they are selling well)
D : competing sellers driving each others prices down
But at the end of the day, it's Cryptic's gambling mechanics and sleazy low drop rates that cause this entire situation, not the players selling ships on the exchange. ALL of the anger about this should be aimed squarely at Cryptic, not the players selling the ship. Just be thankful there are people selling the ships on the exchange at all, because that is your only way to get them without gambling.
I don't think it really matters how much 'anger' we direct at Cryptic; they're overwhelmingly committed to the use of FOMO tactics and 'big ticket' crash grabs now and they've all but confirmed (Kael in a recent Livestream) that there are no plans to change that.
Oh I agree. My point is simply that is someone is angry and is going to post about it, they should at least blame the right people.
unsure about you, but im getting burned out on events. while a good way to obtain, and even though i am tired of them, id run it for this one.
as for the views...they are and can be assets, but not when one side fails to want to see the other.
It would be nice if the events are new something we haven't done before but yeah repeat events are tiresome after years. Still rather see that ship in an event like Summer Event or Winter Event then in that lockbox. This is coming from somebody who opens boxes on a regular base and still has like 3 T6 infinity boxes sitting in the bank. I rather have the ships account wide that is why I have been purchasing most mudd ship bundles because even if it still expensive its way cheaper then getting these for most chars via gambling box.
C-Store Inc. is still looking for active members on the fed side. If you don't have a fleet feel free to contact me in game @stegi.
I know it's not much, but I've a funny feeling we'll see the starter ship be a T1 California-Class for the updated Federation tutorial.
It's just the T6 that's Infinite Lockboxed. Then again, this base version may only be available to those who made a new Federation character. Maybe the Legendary (with the different variants, including the one with the missing primary hull) will what we'll eventually end up for the T6.
Unless the T6 version is released as part of a future Mudd's Bundle.
I know it's not much, but I've a funny feeling we'll see the starter ship be a T1 California-Class for the updated Federation tutorial.
Unless they made new VO for the Fed Tutorial the ship you use isn't gonna change as it's referred to as "Miranda class" in the dialogue and it would look odd if it was a California class instead.
I know it's not much, but I've a funny feeling we'll see the starter ship be a T1 California-Class for the updated Federation tutorial.
It's just the T6 that's Infinite Lockboxed. Then again, this base version may only be available to those who made a new Federation character. Maybe the Legendary (with the different variants, including the one with the missing primary hull) will what we'll eventually end up for the T6.
Unless the T6 version is released as part of a future Mudd's Bundle.
that would be a slap in the face to fly it for all of 2 mins and then grow out of it.
No, it would be a slap in the face if they slapped you in the face. I really wish people would find a different simile.
And you don't have to abandon a T1 ship just because you've "grown out of it". There are folks around here who pride themselves in participating meaningfully in TFOs using T1 ships. I can only presume one would be equally effective in the various story missions.
I know it's not much, but I've a funny feeling we'll see the starter ship be a T1 California-Class for the updated Federation tutorial.
Unless they made new VO for the Fed Tutorial the ship you use isn't gonna change as it's referred to as "Miranda class" in the dialogue and it would look odd if it was a California class instead.
Considering that they are updating the tutorial, they are going to be changing the dialogue. Just as well, a T1California will cause any cadet to be like: "We're going in that thing?!" 😉
I know it's not much, but I've a funny feeling we'll see the starter ship be a T1 California-Class for the updated Federation tutorial.
It's just the T6 that's Infinite Lockboxed. Then again, this base version may only be available to those who made a new Federation character. Maybe the Legendary (with the different variants, including the one with the missing primary hull) will what we'll eventually end up for the T6.
Unless the T6 version is released as part of a future Mudd's Bundle.
that would be a slap in the face to fly it for all of 2 mins and then grow out of it.
That's the way it goes for starter ships.
Personally, I'd rather have the starter ship for our characters be a free scalable T6 ship. But, then again, that's my opinion, and that doesn't count.
> @spiritborn said: > Unless they made new VO for the Fed Tutorial the ship you use isn't gonna change as it's referred to as "Miranda class" in the dialogue and it would look odd if it was a California class instead.
That is a weird point to make. I can't stand when people do this. "There is no way we can adapt the Euro in our country. All the vending machines take DM coins. You couldn't ever get anything out of them again!" ...
If they change the starter ship to a Cali-class they'd *obviously* change the dialogue that comes with it. And honestly, using a Cali makes more sense than a Miranda in 2409.
^ Memory Alpha.org is not canon. It's a open wiki with arbitrary rules. Only what can be cited from an episode is. ^
"No. Men do not roar. Women roar. Then they hurl heavy objects... and claw at you." -Worf, son of Mogh
"A filthy, mangy beast, but in its bony breast beat the heart of a warrior" - "faithful" (...) "but ever-ready to follow the call of the wild." - Martok, about a Targ
"That pig smelled horrid. A sweet-sour, extremely pungent odor. I showered and showered, and it took me a week to get rid of it!" - Robert Justman, appreciating Emmy-Lou
> @spiritborn said:
> Unless they made new VO for the Fed Tutorial the ship you use isn't gonna change as it's referred to as "Miranda class" in the dialogue and it would look odd if it was a California class instead.
That is a weird point to make. I can't stand when people do this. "There is no way we can adapt the Euro in our country. All the vending machines take DM coins. You couldn't ever get anything out of them again!" ...
If they change the starter ship to a Cali-class they'd *obviously* change the dialogue that comes with it. And honestly, using a Cali makes more sense than a Miranda in 2409.
Not necessarily, they probably made the Mirandas for quite a while as second-string warship/utility ships since so many were in TNG. While the California class is probably replacing them on the utility side, Starfleet seems to do that by attrition and the oldest ones still serviceable would probably end up as Academy trainers.
> @spiritborn said:
> Unless they made new VO for the Fed Tutorial the ship you use isn't gonna change as it's referred to as "Miranda class" in the dialogue and it would look odd if it was a California class instead.
That is a weird point to make. I can't stand when people do this. "There is no way we can adapt the Euro in our country. All the vending machines take DM coins. You couldn't ever get anything out of them again!" ...
If they change the starter ship to a Cali-class they'd *obviously* change the dialogue that comes with it. And honestly, using a Cali makes more sense than a Miranda in 2409.
Not necessarily, they probably made the Mirandas for quite a while as second-string warship/utility ships since so many were in TNG. While the California class is probably replacing them on the utility side, Starfleet seems to do that by attrition and the oldest ones still serviceable would probably end up as Academy trainers.
There's the possible benefit that older ships if still functional don't have all the quality of life updates newer ships have, so somethings have to be done manually on a Miranda but are automated on a Cali, this would help in training for engineers as they now know how to do it manually should the automation fail.
That's kind of my explanation for the NX-replicas we have in-game they're not meant as frontline ship but rather as academy trainers built to en older standard on purpose so that new engineers will learn to do certain things themselves and not say rely on the automation to fix things.
Buying it in the store: 30€. Legendary store pack: 60€. Mudd pack: 300-600€. Lockbox: 1-2000€ (potentially).
Guess why 😏
^ Memory Alpha.org is not canon. It's a open wiki with arbitrary rules. Only what can be cited from an episode is. ^
"No. Men do not roar. Women roar. Then they hurl heavy objects... and claw at you." -Worf, son of Mogh
"A filthy, mangy beast, but in its bony breast beat the heart of a warrior" - "faithful" (...) "but ever-ready to follow the call of the wild." - Martok, about a Targ
"That pig smelled horrid. A sweet-sour, extremely pungent odor. I showered and showered, and it took me a week to get rid of it!" - Robert Justman, appreciating Emmy-Lou
You know something THEY haven't ever done, and this be a perfect way to have your CAKE & EAT IT TOO.
Make the T6 Version the one that's in the Lockbox with a new & revised 2410 skin that has been updated to be a more Tactical focused Light Cruiser.
Then they could make the 2380's Ceritos (California Class) as a T5 bundled option from the CSTORE; that could then be T5 2480's skin from Lower Decks (without animated appearance) that sell for 2500 ZEN + a bundled T5U Upgrade for 3000 ZEN. Perhaps this could also offer a unique Console that could pair with the Lockbox Ship; so even those who acquire the Lockbox may want to acquire the CSTORE T5 variant to then T6x upgrade too for a second set of Stations.
Yet part of me wonder's if they'd be that creative, yet maybe they will? The Ceritos doesn't have a T5 or T6 Variant like the Titan, so they could offer both...
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Question is will they consider a variation like that at least gives something to everyone to be interested in. I'll PING the Noble Ambassador Kael, yet he won't be able to comment; however maybe they will consider something like this?
I don't see them making any more T5s, that starship has left the dock a long tine ago. No, seriously, there is no use for a T5 any more.
Only thing I could maybe see is a 'light' T6 version of the Cali given out for free for new characters, assuming the ship becones the new starter ship. Like the Klingon recruit raider, it doesn't come with a trait or console and no T6x but is a scaling ship a character can use through it's whole career.
^ Memory Alpha.org is not canon. It's a open wiki with arbitrary rules. Only what can be cited from an episode is. ^
"No. Men do not roar. Women roar. Then they hurl heavy objects... and claw at you." -Worf, son of Mogh
"A filthy, mangy beast, but in its bony breast beat the heart of a warrior" - "faithful" (...) "but ever-ready to follow the call of the wild." - Martok, about a Targ
"That pig smelled horrid. A sweet-sour, extremely pungent odor. I showered and showered, and it took me a week to get rid of it!" - Robert Justman, appreciating Emmy-Lou
I don't see them making any more T5s, that starship has left the dock a long tine ago. No, seriously, there is no use for a T5 any more.
Only thing I could maybe see is a 'light' T6 version of the Cali given out for free for new characters, assuming the ship becones the new starter ship. Like the Klingon recruit raider, it doesn't come with a trait or console and no T6x but is a scaling ship a character can use through it's whole career.
That would be highly appropriate, as the California-class seems to be seen as a "lesser" assignment, not a prestige seat at all. It's where you send the captains who aren't really that great at captaining, the misfit crew who just aren't suitable for a frontline assignment, and maybe the newly-commissioned ensigns who need to get a little experience in before going to the "cool" ships or starbases. So sure, your Cali is technically T6, but she never gets those experimental upgrades that the good ships get.
(Basically, if I were starting over with Grunt and company in stories, the Cali-class is what they'd have gotten. It's why he was given the Hypatia, after all.)
put the cali in the cstore as part of a 3 ship bundle. we know ther e are operations, tactical and science cali varients after all
That would still be peanuts for them instead of another cash cow, so it is extremely unlikely to say the least. Their business model centers on selling limited numbers of very expensive ships to the whales, not so much the volume sales of cheaper ships to vastly more people.
You know something THEY haven't ever done, and this be a perfect way to have your CAKE & EAT IT TOO.
Make the T6 Version the one that's in the Lockbox with a new & revised 2410 skin that has been updated to be a more Tactical focused Light Cruiser.
Then they could make the 2380's Ceritos (California Class) as a T5 bundled option from the CSTORE; that could then be T5 2480's skin from Lower Decks (without animated appearance) that sell for 2500 ZEN + a bundled T5U Upgrade for 3000 ZEN. Perhaps this could also offer a unique Console that could pair with the Lockbox Ship; so even those who acquire the Lockbox may want to acquire the CSTORE T5 variant to then T6x upgrade too for a second set of Stations.
Yet part of me wonder's if they'd be that creative, yet maybe they will? The Ceritos doesn't have a T5 or T6 Variant like the Titan, so they could offer both...
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Question is will they consider a variation like that at least gives something to everyone to be interested in. I'll PING the Noble Ambassador Kael, yet he won't be able to comment; however maybe they will consider something like this?
i like this as well. too bad greed is priority vs fun...
I thought it would be a good method to introduce a T5 Ship provided it went to 11 Consoles with T5u; then it even make it viable for a T6x upgrade too for some! As I suspect the Lockbox updated 2410 Class has possible a new name, likely have a newer skin too; let alone a better console, or trait too. Still they could make both T5 & T6 ship consoles have a 2 piece set; even if most likely want the Trait from it I suspect.
I know they are removing T5 Ships from Phoenix, yet those are Event ships most don't care about, except perhaps the Voth. While some T5u Promo/Lockbox ships still draw interest, those may get added to Mudd's future packs, choose 3 T6 Ships, and maybe 1 T5u; can't be sure though. Also don't know what ships are being considered from Mudd's pack and if they are T5 or T6.
Question is did Cryptic Approach it that way, I don't know that they have.
put the cali in the cstore as part of a 3 ship bundle. we know ther e are operations, tactical and science cali varients after all
That would still be peanuts for them instead of another cash cow, so it is extremely unlikely to say the least. Their business model centers on selling limited numbers of very expensive ships to the whales, not so much the volume sales of cheaper ships to vastly more people.
That's why they should consider the best or most modern Variant for the Lockbox, yet could still make a T5u Variant if it had 11 consoles viable for 3000 ZEN (2500 + 500 for T5u bundled Upgrade) similar to the Steam Runner Bundle but with the T5u upgrade included.
Comments
I'm talking about player sales of lockbox ships. Again... is someone really going to want to open and sell a Benthan Assault Cruiser or the new shiny Cali class?
Older ships are more expensive because fewer people are selling them, allowing for the seller to basically set their own price, however the likelyhood of it selling at all is low because few people want a Benthan Assault Cruiser nowadays. (Low Supply/Low Demand)
Newer ships can be more expensive based on the desirability of the ship, in this case the Cali is a canon ship and thus more desireable. (Going to be High Supply/High Demand)
If you were selling a T6 lockbox ship, which would you put up for sale? The old Benthan Assault Cruiser or the latest shiny? Which would sell faster and better? I bet you nine times out of ten it will be the latest shiny.
With giving players the choice in the Infinity Box, most will lean more towards the newer ships over the older ones. There is no cabal of lockbox cartels trying to corner the market on older ships. Its just that people aren't picking those older ships as often as they do the newer ones.
A Mirror Engle is going to be worth a lot more than the Benthan Assault Cruiser because of the desirable trait (Which is better: Superior Area Denial or Load Viral Torpedo?). The Cali is going to be worth a lot more because of it being a canon ship over the Tholian Tarantula.
There are many factors in play, the state of the in game econony, the desirability of a ship, the number of ships available...
Many things. Is player greed part of it? Maybe. But its not the sole driving factor you're making it out to be.
(1) Cryptic's: they have UNLIMITED "supply" of theses ships, which is why their low drop rate is so sleazy.
(2) The exchange (from other players): this supply level will depend on how much people actually want the ship. And this part is where it gets really complicated, because it depends on all of the following:
A: the sleazy drop rate referenced earlier
B: the amount actually put up for sale on the exchange
C: the demand from the market (which will both reduce the amount available on the exchange AND cause other sellers to want to put theirs up for sale if they know they are selling well)
D : competing sellers driving each others prices down
But at the end of the day, it's Cryptic's gambling mechanics and sleazy low drop rates that cause this entire situation, not the players selling ships on the exchange. ALL of the anger about this should be aimed squarely at Cryptic, not the players selling the ship. Just be thankful there are people selling the ships on the exchange at all, because that is your only way to get them without gambling.
The-Grand-Nagus
Join Date: Sep 2008
Something we sure can all agree on this ship should have not been in a gamble box. It should have been in the C-Store or free through an event. Also having different points of view is an asset not an issue.
Oh I agree. My point is simply that is someone is angry and is going to post about it, they should at least blame the right people.
The-Grand-Nagus
Join Date: Sep 2008
It would be nice if the events are new something we haven't done before but yeah repeat events are tiresome after years. Still rather see that ship in an event like Summer Event or Winter Event then in that lockbox. This is coming from somebody who opens boxes on a regular base and still has like 3 T6 infinity boxes sitting in the bank. I rather have the ships account wide that is why I have been purchasing most mudd ship bundles because even if it still expensive its way cheaper then getting these for most chars via gambling box.
It's just the T6 that's Infinite Lockboxed. Then again, this base version may only be available to those who made a new Federation character. Maybe the Legendary (with the different variants, including the one with the missing primary hull) will what we'll eventually end up for the T6.
Unless the T6 version is released as part of a future Mudd's Bundle.
And you don't have to abandon a T1 ship just because you've "grown out of it". There are folks around here who pride themselves in participating meaningfully in TFOs using T1 ships. I can only presume one would be equally effective in the various story missions.
Considering that they are updating the tutorial, they are going to be changing the dialogue. Just as well, a T1California will cause any cadet to be like: "We're going in that thing?!" 😉
That's the way it goes for starter ships.
Personally, I'd rather have the starter ship for our characters be a free scalable T6 ship. But, then again, that's my opinion, and that doesn't count.
> Unless they made new VO for the Fed Tutorial the ship you use isn't gonna change as it's referred to as "Miranda class" in the dialogue and it would look odd if it was a California class instead.
That is a weird point to make. I can't stand when people do this. "There is no way we can adapt the Euro in our country. All the vending machines take DM coins. You couldn't ever get anything out of them again!" ...
If they change the starter ship to a Cali-class they'd *obviously* change the dialogue that comes with it. And honestly, using a Cali makes more sense than a Miranda in 2409.
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Not necessarily, they probably made the Mirandas for quite a while as second-string warship/utility ships since so many were in TNG. While the California class is probably replacing them on the utility side, Starfleet seems to do that by attrition and the oldest ones still serviceable would probably end up as Academy trainers.
There's the possible benefit that older ships if still functional don't have all the quality of life updates newer ships have, so somethings have to be done manually on a Miranda but are automated on a Cali, this would help in training for engineers as they now know how to do it manually should the automation fail.
That's kind of my explanation for the NX-replicas we have in-game they're not meant as frontline ship but rather as academy trainers built to en older standard on purpose so that new engineers will learn to do certain things themselves and not say rely on the automation to fix things.
Well, they might eventually in a Mudd's pack, but that will be at least a year if not more.
The "good" news is that you don't have to gamble to get it. It will be on the exchange for 1bil+ credits.
And if you don't have 1bil+ credits, you can:
A: buy master keys
B: sell them on the exchange for EC
C: use that EC to buy the ship on the exchange
That said, it's going to cost you over $100 worth of keys; probably closer to $200.
So yes you can get it without gambling, but it's going to be very expensive.
The-Grand-Nagus
Join Date: Sep 2008
Guess why 😏
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Make the T6 Version the one that's in the Lockbox with a new & revised 2410 skin that has been updated to be a more Tactical focused Light Cruiser.
Then they could make the 2380's Ceritos (California Class) as a T5 bundled option from the CSTORE; that could then be T5 2480's skin from Lower Decks (without animated appearance) that sell for 2500 ZEN + a bundled T5U Upgrade for 3000 ZEN. Perhaps this could also offer a unique Console that could pair with the Lockbox Ship; so even those who acquire the Lockbox may want to acquire the CSTORE T5 variant to then T6x upgrade too for a second set of Stations.
Yet part of me wonder's if they'd be that creative, yet maybe they will? The Ceritos doesn't have a T5 or T6 Variant like the Titan, so they could offer both...
▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬
Question is will they consider a variation like that at least gives something to everyone to be interested in. I'll PING the Noble Ambassador Kael, yet he won't be able to comment; however maybe they will consider something like this?
@ambassadorkael#6946
Only thing I could maybe see is a 'light' T6 version of the Cali given out for free for new characters, assuming the ship becones the new starter ship. Like the Klingon recruit raider, it doesn't come with a trait or console and no T6x but is a scaling ship a character can use through it's whole career.
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"There's No Way Like Poway!"
Real Join Date: October 2010
Hey ... I can dream!
Join Date: Aug 14th 2008
(Basically, if I were starting over with Grunt and company in stories, the Cali-class is what they'd have gotten. It's why he was given the Hypatia, after all.)
That would still be peanuts for them instead of another cash cow, so it is extremely unlikely to say the least. Their business model centers on selling limited numbers of very expensive ships to the whales, not so much the volume sales of cheaper ships to vastly more people.
I thought it would be a good method to introduce a T5 Ship provided it went to 11 Consoles with T5u; then it even make it viable for a T6x upgrade too for some! As I suspect the Lockbox updated 2410 Class has possible a new name, likely have a newer skin too; let alone a better console, or trait too. Still they could make both T5 & T6 ship consoles have a 2 piece set; even if most likely want the Trait from it I suspect.
I know they are removing T5 Ships from Phoenix, yet those are Event ships most don't care about, except perhaps the Voth. While some T5u Promo/Lockbox ships still draw interest, those may get added to Mudd's future packs, choose 3 T6 Ships, and maybe 1 T5u; can't be sure though. Also don't know what ships are being considered from Mudd's pack and if they are T5 or T6.
Question is did Cryptic Approach it that way, I don't know that they have.
That's why they should consider the best or most modern Variant for the Lockbox, yet could still make a T5u Variant if it had 11 consoles viable for 3000 ZEN (2500 + 500 for T5u bundled Upgrade) similar to the Steam Runner Bundle but with the T5u upgrade included.