And at the same time, cutting earnings will have no effect *on those players*, because right now, their demand for dilithium is ZERO.
This is true, it will not effect players already sitting on mountains of Dilithium. That doesn't mean that supply doesn't need a reduction.
First of all, you have the rest of the player base to consider, but ignoring that and looking at the players you are talking about, once they spend that Dilithium, you don't want them replenishing their stock overnight. I am on board with every part of your argument except this one, you cannot ignore the supply side of a supply and demand market.
Sinks are needed, but without a reduction it's only a half measure.
This isn't entirely accurate. Yes, it's a supply-vs-demand dynamic, but it's overlooking a fundamental imbalance in that relationship -- *demand* leads supply, not the other way around. Nothing can make a supply worth anything if there's no demand. However, if there's demand and no supply, *someone* will step in to fill that demand eventually. And that's the part that's not being addressed. At *this* juncture, the showstopper is the demand. Not the supply. Demand has been almost entirely exhausted by the most prolific zen spenders, so to start the process of rebalancing the dilex economy by attacking the *supply* side of the equation is wildly premature. To further demonstrate this, the only time any real headway is made balancing the dilex is when Cryptic creates demand.
Now, whether or not creating demand for dilithium is as profitable as using those same development dollars on gamble boxes and the lobi shop, well, that's another discussion entirely.
I never implied that Supply and Demand were equal parts of the equation, but cases can be made where Supply does indeed lead demand. Auto makers that make a certain model 'limited edition' for example. Nothing inflates the demand for an exotic item as much as announcing 'we're only making 250 of these.'
Either way, ignoring the supply side of the equation is a half measure. What's happening here is no one wants to admit what they're really thinking. People want the exchange fixed, but they don't want their dilithium supply nerfed.. that is what this comes down to. People that say 'we only need sinks' know better and they should admit it. If you don't want your shiny rewards nerfed.. ok, fine.. but they should be transparent about it.
They know it's true, I am just the one actually saying it. I don't like nerfs any more then anyone else, but the more abundant an item is, the less it's worth. Gold and Silver take the exact same amount of effort to mine and refine, but gold is worth 10 times more then silver. Why? Scarcity.. there is less gold available then silver.
The same thing happens every time this topic comes up, people argue from the perspective of their own wants while ignoring how things actually work. If someone tells you that supply has nothing to do with it, they either don't understand the issue or they're arguing with an agenda. I don't want to get less rewards from content anymore then anyone else.. but I understand it has to be done.
Content can be rewarding in other ways, there are plenty of other things to entice people and Cryptic needs to explore that instead of just lazily giving 'bonus dilithium' for everything. I will not argue that the Sinks are more important side of the equation.. they absolutely are. And the reduction in supply doesn't have to be enormous.. but it does need to happen in some form, rather any of us like it or not.
@seaofsorrows I never said there wasn't a supply problem, but it's a drop in the bucket compared to the *demand* problem. Yet they started by addressing the supply side of the problem. The time to fiddle with the supply-side was long before it got this imbalanced. Cryptic spent years adding value to zen (for good reason -- that's how the game is monetized), while ignoring dilithium as it dropped in value. Reducing the supply of dilithium coming into the game now won't create demand, so it won't help anything. *Demand* kept the dilex running, primarily from the massive dilithium sink known as fleeting holdings (no, not exclusively, but it was the major player). Every conceivable use for dilithium has a logical limit. A sizable proportion of the players have met them, and more still are, thanks to cheap dilithium on the dilex, rapidly closing in on them now, too. Every conceivable use for zen has a logical limit, too. At least it would, if Cryptic wasn't consistently adding to the pool of 'things' to get with it. And that's what's missing for dilithium -- they haven't added any real use for dilithium in years.
Indeed.. I actually don't think we disagree here, just a slight miscommunication. I am going to isolate this statement:
Reducing the supply of dilithium coming into the game now won't create demand, so it won't help anything.
You're absolutely right, and I would never advocate reducing supply without adding demand. Perhaps I wasn't clear in my view, the game needs both a slight reduction in supply and a massive increase in demand. If I made it sound like I was only advocating a change on the supply side, then I have poorly communicated my point.
I don't disagree with anything you said, and I agree that the Demand side needs the most attention. I just also understand that once you manage to make those desirable sinks and you get some of the Dilihium carved out of peoples massive reserves, if they can just replenish that stock in a short period of time it doesn't fully address the issue. People will never buy Dilihitum with Zen if they can just get it for free very quickly.. and right now, they can. The demand side has to be addressed first, absolutely.. but that alone is not the full fix.
When I talk about people that are intentionally avoiding this side of the equation, I am not talking about you, I believe you understand the situation. I don't want 'nerfs' any more then anyone else, but what I want even less is an exchange that doesn't function. Cryptic can find other rewards to mix things up instead of offering Dilithium for literally every single thing you do in the game. There are ways to reduce the supply without just taking things away from people.
Overall though, you and I are just brainstorming. Lets face it man, Cryptic isn't going to listen to any of it anyway.. but still, it's fun at least exchanging ideas.
If they designed and kept designing the demand side properly there would never need to be a reason to touch supply side. But of course they have utterly ignored the demand for dilithium so the inevitable spiral happens.
And at the same time, cutting earnings will have no effect *on those players*, because right now, their demand for dilithium is ZERO.
This is true, it will not effect players already sitting on mountains of Dilithium. That doesn't mean that supply doesn't need a reduction.
First of all, you have the rest of the player base to consider, but ignoring that and looking at the players you are talking about, once they spend that Dilithium, you don't want them replenishing their stock overnight. I am on board with every part of your argument except this one, you cannot ignore the supply side of a supply and demand market.
Sinks are needed, but without a reduction it's only a half measure.
You're correct. I was simply trying to emphasize that I was talking specifically about veteran players who've exhausted the current sinks. Creating new sinks is the only way to change their behavior.
That behavior being that those who get there by farming switch to trying to buy, and those who get there by selling stop selling... both of which are an upward pressure on the exchange, and are how we got to the cap in the first place.
I wasn't even really thinking of people "already sitting on mountains of Dilithium"... though that too... but of people who used to use Zen to buy dilithium and have stopped because they had no (remaining) use for the dilithium.
Cutting earnings will slow down players from entering (or re-entering) that category, and I did not mean to say that it should not also be done. I was just trying to make the point there cannot be a solution without creating new sinks, because scarcity will not by itself create demand (among those players who have already exhausted the present sinks).
Sounds very reasonable, nothing there I can really disagree with.
And at the same time, cutting earnings will have no effect *on those players*, because right now, their demand for dilithium is ZERO.
This is true, it will not effect players already sitting on mountains of Dilithium. That doesn't mean that supply doesn't need a reduction.
First of all, you have the rest of the player base to consider, but ignoring that and looking at the players you are talking about, once they spend that Dilithium, you don't want them replenishing their stock overnight. I am on board with every part of your argument except this one, you cannot ignore the supply side of a supply and demand market.
Sinks are needed, but without a reduction it's only a half measure.
You're correct. I was simply trying to emphasize that I was talking specifically about veteran players who've exhausted the current sinks. Creating new sinks is the only way to change their behavior.
That behavior being that those who get there by farming switch to trying to buy, and those who get there by selling stop selling... both of which are an upward pressure on the exchange, and are how we got to the cap in the first place.
I wasn't even really thinking of people "already sitting on mountains of Dilithium"... though that too... but of people who used to use Zen to buy dilithium and have stopped because they had no (remaining) use for the dilithium.
Cutting earnings will slow down players from entering (or re-entering) that category, and I did not mean to say that it should not also be done. I was just trying to make the point there cannot be a solution without creating new sinks, because scarcity will not by itself create demand (among those players who have already exhausted the present sinks).
Sounds very reasonable, nothing there I can really disagree with.
Honestly, I think your previous was simply based on misunderstanding / misinterpreting my previous post... that you came to the conclusion that because I was only talking about sinks, that I was advocating for a sink-only solution. That was never my intent. I was just trying to counter @husanakx 's advocating for an earnings-only solution.
Indeed I think we both took a side in the debate... like good debaters do. lol
Think we both agree what is needed is a mix of both... although I think we disagree on which way they should lean harder.
I see a whole lot of people complaining about not being able to get things for free, basically...
Y'all know this game COSTS tens of millions a year, minimum, to keep alive...right? So...absolutely, they are going to cater to the people actually paying their paychecks.
F2P is to keep people active, and actively grinding.
The dil exchange being where it's at, keeps the F2P active, which gives the people actually keeping the game alive, an incentive to do so.
F2P will ALWAYS get the short end of the shaft, because they are an incentive for the paying players to play, and nothing more. Their ONLY contribution is being active.
Was it ever stated why they didn't maintain the monthly option? Could the accountant not be bothered with the extra row on his abacus?
My guess is that they figured having to LTS means they have to commit to F2P grinding or LTS boosted play time. Either way you're more committed than an on/off monthly hopper......like most people do with streaming services.
I used to do monthly but it was phased out not long after I started, so when I took a break I lost the option.
I don't believe the sub F2P hybrid examples are superior in anyway. LOTRO as an example is a poor one.... like Trek there is a core of super fans with money that have and will keep that game going.
I believe crypitcs model is solid for STO. Its probably the best f2p game in the business. The advantage they have is very much the same as LOTROS... its old enough to have rich super fans. Its not a new property with a young fan base. If Star Trek wasn't decades old it wouldn't have had that potential "whale" class around.
The mistake Cryptic has made... is not continually developing sinks. As much as I hate that word... when I think of a Sink I think of actual CONTENT. Not spend dillithium to skip time gates... which seems to be all cryptic thinks about. By continually adding gear, that yes obsoletes previous gear... and by releasing it in a state that sinks dill with upgrades. You can keep things moving. Cryptic stopped doing that and all of a sudden way too many F2P players got used to being able to farm enough Dill to be uber rich have everything unlocked free players. F2P should be a choice at all times... in regards to I farmed enough to unlock X or Y ship pack... for too long F2P STO players haven't had to choose. Many have earned enough to just buy everything when its on sale. Including packs to sell to get space rich in EC as well.
I believe at this point the only way it gets balanced out a bit more is if they constrain supply... without going so far to have Free players leave. If I where cryptic... I would skip doing any huge bundles for a few months at least while applying fixes. It might be time to do packs like the Dominion leg pack for 5 or 6 months while slowing Dill supply and hopefully adding new GEAR... either through reputation extensions, missions or perhaps even new fleet holdings or existing holding extensions. Give people things to focus on rather then packs they can't grind anymore. I guess I'm saying they need to treat the F2P like Frogs for awhile... slowly turn the heat up a bit. Get them used to the idea that F2P doesn't mean everything for free anymore. As long as most people can still grind for the things they really want.... or can reduce their costs of bigger bundles. The game will be ok.
Oh also for what its worth... Cryptic has just added another very good sink.
The recruit event + the new leg pack... are sinks.
A new toon that will need new things... a Leg pack that only unlocks all its non ship content for the least really played "faction".
Cryptic has made it harder to toss your new Jem toon if you buy the leg pack cause your not going to throw away your one toon with the leg stuffs. Sink.
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rattler2Member, Star Trek Online ModeratorPosts: 58,577Community Moderator
Oh also for what its worth... Cryptic has just added another very good sink.
The recruit event + the new leg pack... are sinks.
A new toon that will need new things... a Leg pack that only unlocks all its non ship content for the least really played "faction".
Cryptic has made it harder to toss your new Jem toon if you buy the leg pack cause your not going to throw away your one toon with the leg stuffs. Sink.
Um... I think you got that backwards. Because its not making Dilithium more desirable. Its making ZEN more desirable. We need things to sink Dilithium, not Zen. Again its Supply and Demand. And this just adds more demand for ZEN. Not Dilithium. And it sure as hell isn't going to add Supply to Zen. Just pile on more Demand.
Think of it like one of those old fashioned scales. Right now the scale is extremely heavy on the Demand side for Zen because of sales, new items, and current Dilithium Supply. The market always reacted to things such as sales and new items by an upward spike in Zen prices. We used to get more of a balancing spike from Phoenix Boxes in the Dilithium direction, and have seen the occasional Vanity Shield DL Sale also drive the market more towards desirable Dilithium, which in turn affected Zen prices.
And in regards to people saying that they WANT 500/1... even Cryptic has said this is not ideal. They would prefer a more balanced, fair economy. And honestly from my perspective that would be better for everyone as well. More movement on the Exchange at fairer prices means win/win for EVERYONE. If there is more Zen on the market, allowing for faster or even instant transactions, the economy is actually healthier.
Oh also for what its worth... Cryptic has just added another very good sink.
The recruit event + the new leg pack... are sinks.
A new toon that will need new things... a Leg pack that only unlocks all its non ship content for the least really played "faction".
Cryptic has made it harder to toss your new Jem toon if you buy the leg pack cause your not going to throw away your one toon with the leg stuffs. Sink.
Um... I think you got that backwards. Because its not making Dilithium more desirable. Its making ZEN more desirable. We need things to sink Dilithium, not Zen. Again its Supply and Demand. And this just adds more demand for ZEN. Not Dilithium. And it sure as hell isn't going to add Supply to Zen. Just pile on more Demand.
Think of it like one of those old fashioned scales. Right now the scale is extremely heavy on the Demand side for Zen because of sales, new items, and current Dilithium Supply. The market always reacted to things such as sales and new items by an upward spike in Zen prices. We used to get more of a balancing spike from Phoenix Boxes in the Dilithium direction, and have seen the occasional Vanity Shield DL Sale also drive the market more towards desirable Dilithium, which in turn affected Zen prices.
And in regards to people saying that they WANT 500/1... even Cryptic has said this is not ideal. They would prefer a more balanced, fair economy. And honestly from my perspective that would be better for everyone as well. More movement on the Exchange at fairer prices means win/win for EVERYONE. If there is more Zen on the market, allowing for faster or even instant transactions, the economy is actually healthier.
Its not a one off. Sure it makes Zen more desirable today....
However there is also a charge bonus and if your a BUYER and buy the pack with real money you now have an overage cause they aren't selling 4500 zen at a time. That overage perhaps you convert it to purple rocks to gear up your new toon... sure some people might buy something else or just sit on it. But some will throw it into the exchange, to gear up their new toons.
So sure it is some pressure up front. If the event is a success though it will also be a valve over the month or two of people gearing up a new toon for real. I'm not a big fan of the leg pack having a bunch of stuff locked to a new Jem toon... BUT it is sort of what we want right now. People playing new toons and burning Dill unlocking trait slots and the like.
rattler2Member, Star Trek Online ModeratorPosts: 58,577Community Moderator
I will concede on any dilithium gear upgrade/purchases (including spamming Phoenix Boxes for the upgrades).
However I don't see the new pack itself as a sink, which was what I was referring to. I got it myself, love the ship. But I don't see that as a sink to help balance the economy because it is going to be desirable, and is available for Zen. Specifically calling out the new pack as a sink doesn't work because it is more Zen Demand itself.
I will concede on any dilithium gear upgrade/purchases (including spamming Phoenix Boxes for the upgrades).
However I don't see the new pack itself as a sink, which was what I was referring to. I got it myself, love the ship. But I don't see that as a sink to help balance the economy because it is going to be desirable, and is available for Zen. Specifically calling out the new pack as a sink doesn't work because it is more Zen Demand itself.
Well the ship pack is usable by any toon... but half the items are only usable by the faction with the recruit event running. It makes it more likely people will actually play their new recruits... and sink dill.
Sure sure a bunch of free players may be adding dill to the exchange hoping to get Zen before the ship sale is over. But most people that buy the pack will open the ground stuff on a new jem recruit. Getting people to play new toons for real sinks dill... and the way they setup the leg pack all but the ship is only really usable if you plan to play a Jem. (ok granted some people will just open it on their old jems... still its a push) I suspect Jem toons probably have the least invested in them by players... just being newer and rolling at lvl 60. I mean if Cryptic had a hard time getting people to play KDF I have to think the number of Jem players is low.
Anyway sounds like some Phoenix adds are coming... perhaps Cryptic can chip away at things. Hey if it drops to a constant backlog of 1 million or so at all times that would be a huge improvement. A 2-3 day wait would be fine.
Well, the Game Economy needs fixing as Hyperinflation has made us reach the Max of 500 Dil per Zen and soon we will reach the cap of 2 bill. EC for most common Loot Box Ships.
How to fix it?
I present my 2 cent solution
1) A 50% (Interest/Fee/tax whatever you want to call it) on all Exchange transactions. (In the main exchange as well as the personal exchange window between players, if EC change hands, it gets 50% cut and destroy).
Why? Because Money needs to be destroyed or inflation will destroy the game.
Also bring back the EC cost for healing our characters injuries and repairing our ships after combat, is there but is free… Also bring back the Transwarp cost, as all those mechanics are in game, they should be use to drain a few thousand EC each time they need to be use!
2) 8000 per day Dil. refining restriction was a very good original restriction but it should be per account (not character).
It can be per side since we have Fed and KDF allied characters.
So, a total of 16,000 Dil. + 2,000 Dil. if you visit the Academy for the Doff refining bonus.
Finally, increase the Fleet Holdings that only go to Tier 3 up to Tier 5 like Embassy, Mine, Spire, Research & K-13.
The Dilithium Mine for example at T5 could grant the player the ability to refine an Additional 2000 Dil. Per day (total of 4000 Dil. per day if part of a Fed and KDF fleet with Mine Tier 5).
The other holdings could grant additional items and consumables that could make it cheaper to recover injuries or make repairs to our ships or Transwarp.
But the point is to have those sinks in place to make the economy healthier!
Why does this work? Because to control inflation in the real world people with many titles and degrees do that (and call it interest). Money needs to leave the system for it to be stable and healthy.
This may hurt and many will cry out at first but is needed to reduce inflation and make the economy healthy again So Please, implement at once.
(Send me some lobi if you do as appreciation for my ideas 😉)
"1) A 50% (Interest/Fee/tax whatever you want to call it) on all Exchange transactions. (In the main exchange as well as the personal exchange window between players, if EC change hands, it gets 50% cut and destroy).
Why? Because Money needs to be destroyed or inflation will destroy the game."
You do realize that would cause hyper inflation, not improve inflation.
1) A 50% (Interest/Fee/tax whatever you want to call it) on all Exchange transactions. (In the main exchange as well as the personal exchange window between players, if EC change hands, it gets 50% cut and destroy).
Why? Because Money needs to be destroyed or inflation will destroy the game.
While I agree that the exchange should have a tax (more like 5% though, 50% would be ridiculous), that ship has sailed at this point. The tax needed to be there on day one when the game launched, adding it now after twelve years without it would cause massive backlash from the community.
Well, the Game Economy needs fixing as Hyperinflation has made us reach the Max of 500 Dil per Zen and soon we will reach the cap of 2 bill. EC for most common Loot Box Ships.
How to fix it?
I present my 2 cent solution
1) A 50% (Interest/Fee/tax whatever you want to call it) on all Exchange transactions. (In the main exchange as well as the personal exchange window between players, if EC change hands, it gets 50% cut and destroy).
Why? Because Money needs to be destroyed or inflation will destroy the game.
Also bring back the EC cost for healing our characters injuries and repairing our ships after combat, is there but is free… Also bring back the Transwarp cost, as all those mechanics are in game, they should be use to drain a few thousand EC each time they need to be use!
2) 8000 per day Dil. refining restriction was a very good original restriction but it should be per account (not character).
It can be per side since we have Fed and KDF allied characters.
So, a total of 16,000 Dil. + 2,000 Dil. if you visit the Academy for the Doff refining bonus.
Finally, increase the Fleet Holdings that only go to Tier 3 up to Tier 5 like Embassy, Mine, Spire, Research & K-13.
The Dilithium Mine for example at T5 could grant the player the ability to refine an Additional 2000 Dil. Per day (total of 4000 Dil. per day if part of a Fed and KDF fleet with Mine Tier 5).
The other holdings could grant additional items and consumables that could make it cheaper to recover injuries or make repairs to our ships or Transwarp.
But the point is to have those sinks in place to make the economy healthier!
Why does this work? Because to control inflation in the real world people with many titles and degrees do that (and call it interest). Money needs to leave the system for it to be stable and healthy.
This may hurt and many will cry out at first but is needed to reduce inflation and make the economy healthy again So Please, implement at once.
(Send me some lobi if you do as appreciation for my ideas 😉)
TLDR: "Oh look - MY solution is the BEST EVER! (Nevermind the other HUGE thread on the subject...)"
Formerly known as Armsman from June 2008 to June 20, 2012 PWE ARC Drone says: "Your STO forum community as you have known it is ended...Display names are irrelevant...Any further sense of community is irrelevant...Resistance is futile...You will be assimilated..."
As soon as an exchange tax was implemented, the exchange would die. There are already off-exchange ways of trading now, it would just kill the exchange itself. And then, zone chat would be even more full more "WTS __________, DM offers" nonsense.
Bad idea, comrade.
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rattler2Member, Star Trek Online ModeratorPosts: 58,577Community Moderator
How to fix it?
I present my 2 cent solution
1) A 50% (Interest/Fee/tax whatever you want to call it) on all Exchange transactions. (In the main exchange as well as the personal exchange window between players, if EC change hands, it gets 50% cut and destroy).
Why? Because Money needs to be destroyed or inflation will destroy the game.
Also bring back the EC cost for healing our characters injuries and repairing our ships after combat, is there but is free… Also bring back the Transwarp cost, as all those mechanics are in game, they should be use to drain a few thousand EC each time they need to be use!
Um... so... basically kill the Exchange or cause prices to skyrocket to try and counter your tax? How does that make things cheeper? It will drive ALL lockbox/lobi ships and everything else desirable off the market and into trade channels that not everyone knows about!
Also... kinda pointless when people can stockpile components and regenerators. And the Transwarp fees... "drain a few thousand ECs"... yea... that's a drop in the bucket these days. More likely to just see people slowboating across Sector Space if that comes back.
2) 8000 per day Dil. refining restriction was a very good original restriction but it should be per account (not character).
It can be per side since we have Fed and KDF allied characters.
So, a total of 16,000 Dil. + 2,000 Dil. if you visit the Academy for the Doff refining bonus.
I disagree. That would make getting ANY amount of dilithium for other things such as rep projects or Fleet Holdings even more painful. And frankly if you're trying to farm on more than a handful of characters that is... um... crazy? I only rotate like 6-7 or so characters through Admiralty, and even that can test my ADD. I can't imagine someone doing that with 50.
Finally, increase the Fleet Holdings that only go to Tier 3 up to Tier 5 like Embassy, Mine, Spire, Research & K-13.
The Dilithium Mine for example at T5 could grant the player the ability to refine an Additional 2000 Dil. Per day (total of 4000 Dil. per day if part of a Fed and KDF fleet with Mine Tier 5).
The other holdings could grant additional items and consumables that could make it cheaper to recover injuries or make repairs to our ships or Transwarp.
Holdings have been a big sink in the past, but they are not infinite. They have a lifespan. And the Big, active fleets will finish theirs first and we'll be right back to square one. It was the big fleets who had an impact on the DL Exchange in the past because they wanted the DL for their holdings. The second the holdings were done, that demand ended. Upping the 3 tier holdings to 5 tier is just kicking the can down the road again.
And why do we need CONSUMABLES to get a repair discount when we already have consumables that we can use FOR FREE?
Why does this work? Because to control inflation in the real world people with many titles and degrees do that (and call it interest). Money needs to leave the system for it to be stable and healthy.
This may hurt and many will cry out at first but is needed to reduce inflation and make the economy healthy again So Please, implement at once.
(Send me some lobi if you do as appreciation for my ideas 😉)
We're not disputing the need for sinks at all. Many agree we need new ones. But they have to be desirable and a benefit to players. Not a forced tax.
We've seen the Vanity Shield sale drive up demand for Dilithium. That was good, if temporary. Again that one would be finite.
We need Dilithium to be desirable. Your solution does not address the Demand for Dilithium. Just breaks a significant Supply leg that will hurt more than help in the long run. While Supply is part of the equasion, Demand is also a significant part. You have not addressed Demand in any significant way other than to kick the can down the road.
A 16.000 dilithium refinement limit for an entire account is way too low.
That would hurt farmers, but it would also hurt those who actually enjoy playing their different alts - and who thus need gear on many toons. As it would also hurt those who like trying out new things.
Imagine a situation where you want to get a full reputation space set or upgrade some new weapons. You'd be looking at multiple days or even weeks just to get or upgrade a few items.
Cryptic may need to do something about those who collect unreasonable amounts of Zen by running large dilithium farms. Proposing such a low limit on refinement isn't the way to do it though. That amounts to punishing those who use the dilithium to get stuff with it.
Comments
I never implied that Supply and Demand were equal parts of the equation, but cases can be made where Supply does indeed lead demand. Auto makers that make a certain model 'limited edition' for example. Nothing inflates the demand for an exotic item as much as announcing 'we're only making 250 of these.'
Either way, ignoring the supply side of the equation is a half measure. What's happening here is no one wants to admit what they're really thinking. People want the exchange fixed, but they don't want their dilithium supply nerfed.. that is what this comes down to. People that say 'we only need sinks' know better and they should admit it. If you don't want your shiny rewards nerfed.. ok, fine.. but they should be transparent about it.
They know it's true, I am just the one actually saying it. I don't like nerfs any more then anyone else, but the more abundant an item is, the less it's worth. Gold and Silver take the exact same amount of effort to mine and refine, but gold is worth 10 times more then silver. Why? Scarcity.. there is less gold available then silver.
The same thing happens every time this topic comes up, people argue from the perspective of their own wants while ignoring how things actually work. If someone tells you that supply has nothing to do with it, they either don't understand the issue or they're arguing with an agenda. I don't want to get less rewards from content anymore then anyone else.. but I understand it has to be done.
Content can be rewarding in other ways, there are plenty of other things to entice people and Cryptic needs to explore that instead of just lazily giving 'bonus dilithium' for everything. I will not argue that the Sinks are more important side of the equation.. they absolutely are. And the reduction in supply doesn't have to be enormous.. but it does need to happen in some form, rather any of us like it or not.
Indeed.. I actually don't think we disagree here, just a slight miscommunication. I am going to isolate this statement:
You're absolutely right, and I would never advocate reducing supply without adding demand. Perhaps I wasn't clear in my view, the game needs both a slight reduction in supply and a massive increase in demand. If I made it sound like I was only advocating a change on the supply side, then I have poorly communicated my point.
I don't disagree with anything you said, and I agree that the Demand side needs the most attention. I just also understand that once you manage to make those desirable sinks and you get some of the Dilihium carved out of peoples massive reserves, if they can just replenish that stock in a short period of time it doesn't fully address the issue. People will never buy Dilihitum with Zen if they can just get it for free very quickly.. and right now, they can. The demand side has to be addressed first, absolutely.. but that alone is not the full fix.
When I talk about people that are intentionally avoiding this side of the equation, I am not talking about you, I believe you understand the situation. I don't want 'nerfs' any more then anyone else, but what I want even less is an exchange that doesn't function. Cryptic can find other rewards to mix things up instead of offering Dilithium for literally every single thing you do in the game. There are ways to reduce the supply without just taking things away from people.
Overall though, you and I are just brainstorming. Lets face it man, Cryptic isn't going to listen to any of it anyway.. but still, it's fun at least exchanging ideas.
Sounds very reasonable, nothing there I can really disagree with.
Indeed I think we both took a side in the debate... like good debaters do. lol
Think we both agree what is needed is a mix of both... although I think we disagree on which way they should lean harder.
Y'all know this game COSTS tens of millions a year, minimum, to keep alive...right? So...absolutely, they are going to cater to the people actually paying their paychecks.
F2P is to keep people active, and actively grinding.
The dil exchange being where it's at, keeps the F2P active, which gives the people actually keeping the game alive, an incentive to do so.
F2P will ALWAYS get the short end of the shaft, because they are an incentive for the paying players to play, and nothing more. Their ONLY contribution is being active.
My guess is that they figured having to LTS means they have to commit to F2P grinding or LTS boosted play time. Either way you're more committed than an on/off monthly hopper......like most people do with streaming services.
I used to do monthly but it was phased out not long after I started, so when I took a break I lost the option.
I believe crypitcs model is solid for STO. Its probably the best f2p game in the business. The advantage they have is very much the same as LOTROS... its old enough to have rich super fans. Its not a new property with a young fan base. If Star Trek wasn't decades old it wouldn't have had that potential "whale" class around.
The mistake Cryptic has made... is not continually developing sinks. As much as I hate that word... when I think of a Sink I think of actual CONTENT. Not spend dillithium to skip time gates... which seems to be all cryptic thinks about. By continually adding gear, that yes obsoletes previous gear... and by releasing it in a state that sinks dill with upgrades. You can keep things moving. Cryptic stopped doing that and all of a sudden way too many F2P players got used to being able to farm enough Dill to be uber rich have everything unlocked free players. F2P should be a choice at all times... in regards to I farmed enough to unlock X or Y ship pack... for too long F2P STO players haven't had to choose. Many have earned enough to just buy everything when its on sale. Including packs to sell to get space rich in EC as well.
I believe at this point the only way it gets balanced out a bit more is if they constrain supply... without going so far to have Free players leave. If I where cryptic... I would skip doing any huge bundles for a few months at least while applying fixes. It might be time to do packs like the Dominion leg pack for 5 or 6 months while slowing Dill supply and hopefully adding new GEAR... either through reputation extensions, missions or perhaps even new fleet holdings or existing holding extensions. Give people things to focus on rather then packs they can't grind anymore. I guess I'm saying they need to treat the F2P like Frogs for awhile... slowly turn the heat up a bit. Get them used to the idea that F2P doesn't mean everything for free anymore. As long as most people can still grind for the things they really want.... or can reduce their costs of bigger bundles. The game will be ok.
The recruit event + the new leg pack... are sinks.
A new toon that will need new things... a Leg pack that only unlocks all its non ship content for the least really played "faction".
Cryptic has made it harder to toss your new Jem toon if you buy the leg pack cause your not going to throw away your one toon with the leg stuffs. Sink.
Um... I think you got that backwards. Because its not making Dilithium more desirable. Its making ZEN more desirable. We need things to sink Dilithium, not Zen. Again its Supply and Demand. And this just adds more demand for ZEN. Not Dilithium. And it sure as hell isn't going to add Supply to Zen. Just pile on more Demand.
Think of it like one of those old fashioned scales. Right now the scale is extremely heavy on the Demand side for Zen because of sales, new items, and current Dilithium Supply. The market always reacted to things such as sales and new items by an upward spike in Zen prices. We used to get more of a balancing spike from Phoenix Boxes in the Dilithium direction, and have seen the occasional Vanity Shield DL Sale also drive the market more towards desirable Dilithium, which in turn affected Zen prices.
And in regards to people saying that they WANT 500/1... even Cryptic has said this is not ideal. They would prefer a more balanced, fair economy. And honestly from my perspective that would be better for everyone as well. More movement on the Exchange at fairer prices means win/win for EVERYONE. If there is more Zen on the market, allowing for faster or even instant transactions, the economy is actually healthier.
Its not a one off. Sure it makes Zen more desirable today....
However there is also a charge bonus and if your a BUYER and buy the pack with real money you now have an overage cause they aren't selling 4500 zen at a time. That overage perhaps you convert it to purple rocks to gear up your new toon... sure some people might buy something else or just sit on it. But some will throw it into the exchange, to gear up their new toons.
So sure it is some pressure up front. If the event is a success though it will also be a valve over the month or two of people gearing up a new toon for real. I'm not a big fan of the leg pack having a bunch of stuff locked to a new Jem toon... BUT it is sort of what we want right now. People playing new toons and burning Dill unlocking trait slots and the like.
However I don't see the new pack itself as a sink, which was what I was referring to. I got it myself, love the ship. But I don't see that as a sink to help balance the economy because it is going to be desirable, and is available for Zen. Specifically calling out the new pack as a sink doesn't work because it is more Zen Demand itself.
Well the ship pack is usable by any toon... but half the items are only usable by the faction with the recruit event running. It makes it more likely people will actually play their new recruits... and sink dill.
Sure sure a bunch of free players may be adding dill to the exchange hoping to get Zen before the ship sale is over. But most people that buy the pack will open the ground stuff on a new jem recruit. Getting people to play new toons for real sinks dill... and the way they setup the leg pack all but the ship is only really usable if you plan to play a Jem. (ok granted some people will just open it on their old jems... still its a push) I suspect Jem toons probably have the least invested in them by players... just being newer and rolling at lvl 60. I mean if Cryptic had a hard time getting people to play KDF I have to think the number of Jem players is low.
Anyway sounds like some Phoenix adds are coming... perhaps Cryptic can chip away at things. Hey if it drops to a constant backlog of 1 million or so at all times that would be a huge improvement. A 2-3 day wait would be fine.
Well, the Game Economy needs fixing as Hyperinflation has made us reach the Max of 500 Dil per Zen and soon we will reach the cap of 2 bill. EC for most common Loot Box Ships.
How to fix it?
I present my 2 cent solution
1) A 50% (Interest/Fee/tax whatever you want to call it) on all Exchange transactions. (In the main exchange as well as the personal exchange window between players, if EC change hands, it gets 50% cut and destroy).
Why? Because Money needs to be destroyed or inflation will destroy the game.
Also bring back the EC cost for healing our characters injuries and repairing our ships after combat, is there but is free… Also bring back the Transwarp cost, as all those mechanics are in game, they should be use to drain a few thousand EC each time they need to be use!
2) 8000 per day Dil. refining restriction was a very good original restriction but it should be per account (not character).
It can be per side since we have Fed and KDF allied characters.
So, a total of 16,000 Dil. + 2,000 Dil. if you visit the Academy for the Doff refining bonus.
Finally, increase the Fleet Holdings that only go to Tier 3 up to Tier 5 like Embassy, Mine, Spire, Research & K-13.
The Dilithium Mine for example at T5 could grant the player the ability to refine an Additional 2000 Dil. Per day (total of 4000 Dil. per day if part of a Fed and KDF fleet with Mine Tier 5).
The other holdings could grant additional items and consumables that could make it cheaper to recover injuries or make repairs to our ships or Transwarp.
But the point is to have those sinks in place to make the economy healthier!
Why does this work? Because to control inflation in the real world people with many titles and degrees do that (and call it interest). Money needs to leave the system for it to be stable and healthy.
This may hurt and many will cry out at first but is needed to reduce inflation and make the economy healthy again So Please, implement at once.
(Send me some lobi if you do as appreciation for my ideas 😉)
https://www.arcgames.com/en/forums/startrekonline#/discussion/1266337/what-happened-to-the-dilithium-exchange-plans-to-fix-it/p1
And when I say "looking" I'm being generous, because it's still on the first page.
We don't need every person posting a new thread for their idea on this same topic when there is already a thread about it
The-Grand-Nagus
Join Date: Sep 2008
Why? Because Money needs to be destroyed or inflation will destroy the game."
You do realize that would cause hyper inflation, not improve inflation.
While I agree that the exchange should have a tax (more like 5% though, 50% would be ridiculous), that ship has sailed at this point. The tax needed to be there on day one when the game launched, adding it now after twelve years without it would cause massive backlash from the community.
TLDR: "Oh look - MY solution is the BEST EVER! (Nevermind the other HUGE thread on the subject...)"
PWE ARC Drone says: "Your STO forum community as you have known it is ended...Display names are irrelevant...Any further sense of community is irrelevant...Resistance is futile...You will be assimilated..."
Bad idea, comrade.
Also... kinda pointless when people can stockpile components and regenerators. And the Transwarp fees... "drain a few thousand ECs"... yea... that's a drop in the bucket these days. More likely to just see people slowboating across Sector Space if that comes back.
I disagree. That would make getting ANY amount of dilithium for other things such as rep projects or Fleet Holdings even more painful. And frankly if you're trying to farm on more than a handful of characters that is... um... crazy? I only rotate like 6-7 or so characters through Admiralty, and even that can test my ADD. I can't imagine someone doing that with 50.
Holdings have been a big sink in the past, but they are not infinite. They have a lifespan. And the Big, active fleets will finish theirs first and we'll be right back to square one. It was the big fleets who had an impact on the DL Exchange in the past because they wanted the DL for their holdings. The second the holdings were done, that demand ended. Upping the 3 tier holdings to 5 tier is just kicking the can down the road again.
And why do we need CONSUMABLES to get a repair discount when we already have consumables that we can use FOR FREE?
We're not disputing the need for sinks at all. Many agree we need new ones. But they have to be desirable and a benefit to players. Not a forced tax.
We've seen the Vanity Shield sale drive up demand for Dilithium. That was good, if temporary. Again that one would be finite.
We need Dilithium to be desirable. Your solution does not address the Demand for Dilithium. Just breaks a significant Supply leg that will hurt more than help in the long run. While Supply is part of the equasion, Demand is also a significant part. You have not addressed Demand in any significant way other than to kick the can down the road.
That would hurt farmers, but it would also hurt those who actually enjoy playing their different alts - and who thus need gear on many toons. As it would also hurt those who like trying out new things.
Imagine a situation where you want to get a full reputation space set or upgrade some new weapons. You'd be looking at multiple days or even weeks just to get or upgrade a few items.
Cryptic may need to do something about those who collect unreasonable amounts of Zen by running large dilithium farms. Proposing such a low limit on refinement isn't the way to do it though. That amounts to punishing those who use the dilithium to get stuff with it.