Its Supply and Demand.
As of right now we have a lot of Supply of Dilithium, but not a lot of Demand for it. On the other hand we have a lot of demand for Zen, but not as much Supply.
With a more balanced economy, and more demand for Dilithium, we should see more movement on both resources. People who don't have the time to grind out Dilithium are more likely to just buy it off the DL Exchange. In return, people who DO have the time will be able to get Zen in exchange for their Dilithium. Its win/win when it works. As of right now we don't have a balanced economy.
Any F2P game will have whales, both new and old. Hell... even sub games will have whales. But here on STO we actually have a way for these people to help others who can't afford their own. When the DL Exchange is more balanced, its actually very F2P friendly. Right now... it just works, but takes time on the Zen buying side of things.
Like I said, it all boils down to Supply and Demand.
Yes but the SUPLLY of Zen isn't going to go up. Is Cryptic going to dig up new whales somewhere ?
Your right its a supply and demand issue. I agree this game has a great setup for F2P. Every business not just games there is always a top 10... the 10% of clients/players what have you that account for 90% of revenues. That proves itself in almost every industry everywhere. I have no idea how many "whales" there is in terms of numbers but I imagine if I'm not wrong about around 5k ongoing daily players then there is perhaps 500... so 500 people paying $200-300 a month each, sounds about right too me. Thing is that has probably been true of the state of the game for years.
The problem is supply of Zen... its not going to go up. It just won't. I think a lot of players need to take a sober minute and understand that 300,000 - 400,000 zen is sold to F2P players daily. STO is not a huge game in terms of player numbers... it has a small group of dedicated die hards with $. Right now today on the low side they are spending $3000 a day, as much as 5k on peak days. That group won't grow so the supply of Zen won't change.
So yes all that can really be done is effect the supply of Dill. Sure you can try and get regular players to try and spend it on sinks.... my point is simple, good luck with that. Regular non whale players in this game are at this point pretty much all selling purple rocks to pay for the stuff they want. They are not going to grind harder, or turn into big spenders... so they will pretty much ignore the new sinks. Unless they can't in which case if you think there was uproar about the T5 payouts just wait.
I explained this before and you completely ignored it, but as @rattler2 said in his last two posts as well...
Your assumption that "the supply of Zen is finite and unchangeable" is not true. And it doesn't require "digging up new whales" to change it.
Because (as @rattler2 correctly pointed out, and as I mentioned previously)... every usage of dilithium other than buying Zen, ultimately has a logical limit to it. Those limits are admittedly different for different players and therefore very hard to quantify.... but would include things like fleet projects, upgrading items, re-engineering, etc.
There may in fact be "whales" who are willing to "wallet" a "grind currency"... to use your and other people's crude terminology... but currently don't because they have no use for that currency... because THEY ALREADY DID the logical limit amount of all the existing things.
(They may even be purchasing Zen anyway, and just using it for things that are bought with Zen instead.)
In which case, if a new and desirable sink is introduced, their behavior very well may change, which would *surprise surprise* mean more Zen going into the Exchange.
I understand your point I just completely disagree with you.
Dar be whales here Captain. Yes there are people buying Zen to buy Rocks every single day. I know you worked the math out 3-5 thousand dollars every single day worth. Clearly that is almost entirely whale money. I also don't mean whale in a derogatory... yes there is a small % of the player base that is spending 200-400 bucks a month on purple rocks. We know that cause well its how everyone is getting their "Free" zen right.
Again for everyone saying we need sinks sinks sinks.
For sinks to work;
- people can't just choose to grind harder to pay for them... in which case Cryptic gets engagement I guess but no extra money, and the exchange is not relieved at all. Zen supply stays flat... Dill supply actually goes UP.
- people getting zen for "free" are going to have to choose to spend money on Zen for the stuff they want... cause they will have new sinks for their Dill rather then just trying to sell it.
- or the handful of people that currently buy all the zen that gets converted to purple rocks... will have to buy harder.
- or somehow by some stroke of genius Cryptic will have to do what no other developer has figured out and turn their non whales into whales. If your not a whale now... just ask yourself what could Cryptic do in STO that would make me want to spend $300 every month buying dilithium ? If the answer is nothing... not shocking. Unless Cryptic gets lucky and a few hundred STO players all win lotteries.
I have no doubt Cryptic will put some sort of sink in... but really imo its all show to ensure no one believes them too greedy. The real truth is if they want to put the breaks on the overflow on the exchange they have drastically reduce dill supply.
I think your right though we have all made the same points a few times. We can agree to disagree. I see zero value in new sinks, imo this game has the perfect amount of sinks already... I'm not convinced this game has a paying player base that can do more then what they already are in terms of buying flex zen they can trade to other players. You and many other actually believe sinks are going to work... and giving people more things to spend money on will work. Anyway we'll see what Cryptic does... I'm not convinced they are going to be able to really turn it around but we'll see. I didn't think they had the stones to axe T5 dill... but they did, so I would love to be surprised.
Its Supply and Demand.
As of right now we have a lot of Supply of Dilithium, but not a lot of Demand for it. On the other hand we have a lot of demand for Zen, but not as much Supply.
With a more balanced economy, and more demand for Dilithium, we should see more movement on both resources. People who don't have the time to grind out Dilithium are more likely to just buy it off the DL Exchange. In return, people who DO have the time will be able to get Zen in exchange for their Dilithium. Its win/win when it works. As of right now we don't have a balanced economy.
Any F2P game will have whales, both new and old. Hell... even sub games will have whales. But here on STO we actually have a way for these people to help others who can't afford their own. When the DL Exchange is more balanced, its actually very F2P friendly. Right now... it just works, but takes time on the Zen buying side of things.
Like I said, it all boils down to Supply and Demand.
Yes but the SUPLLY of Zen isn't going to go up. Is Cryptic going to dig up new whales somewhere ?
Your right its a supply and demand issue. I agree this game has a great setup for F2P. Every business not just games there is always a top 10... the 10% of clients/players what have you that account for 90% of revenues. That proves itself in almost every industry everywhere. I have no idea how many "whales" there is in terms of numbers but I imagine if I'm not wrong about around 5k ongoing daily players then there is perhaps 500... so 500 people paying $200-300 a month each, sounds about right too me. Thing is that has probably been true of the state of the game for years.
The problem is supply of Zen... its not going to go up. It just won't. I think a lot of players need to take a sober minute and understand that 300,000 - 400,000 zen is sold to F2P players daily. STO is not a huge game in terms of player numbers... it has a small group of dedicated die hards with $. Right now today on the low side they are spending $3000 a day, as much as 5k on peak days. That group won't grow so the supply of Zen won't change.
So yes all that can really be done is effect the supply of Dill. Sure you can try and get regular players to try and spend it on sinks.... my point is simple, good luck with that. Regular non whale players in this game are at this point pretty much all selling purple rocks to pay for the stuff they want. They are not going to grind harder, or turn into big spenders... so they will pretty much ignore the new sinks. Unless they can't in which case if you think there was uproar about the T5 payouts just wait.
I explained this before and you completely ignored it, but as @rattler2 said in his last two posts as well...
Your assumption that "the supply of Zen is finite and unchangeable" is not true. And it doesn't require "digging up new whales" to change it.
Because (as @rattler2 correctly pointed out, and as I mentioned previously)... every usage of dilithium other than buying Zen, ultimately has a logical limit to it. Those limits are admittedly different for different players and therefore very hard to quantify.... but would include things like fleet projects, upgrading items, re-engineering, etc.
There may in fact be "whales" who are willing to "wallet" a "grind currency"... to use your and other people's crude terminology... but currently don't because they have no use for that currency... because THEY ALREADY DID the logical limit amount of all the existing things.
(They may even be purchasing Zen anyway, and just using it for things that are bought with Zen instead.)
In which case, if a new and desirable sink is introduced, their behavior very well may change, which would *surprise surprise* mean more Zen going into the Exchange.
I understand your point I just completely disagree with you.
Dar be whales here Captain. Yes there are people buying Zen to buy Rocks every single day. I know you worked the math out 3-5 thousand dollars every single day worth. Clearly that is almost entirely whale money. I also don't mean whale in a derogatory... yes there is a small % of the player base that is spending 200-400 bucks a month on purple rocks. We know that cause well its how everyone is getting their "Free" zen right.
Again for everyone saying we need sinks sinks sinks.
For sinks to work;
- people can't just choose to grind harder to pay for them... in which case Cryptic gets engagement I guess but no extra money, and the exchange is not relieved at all. Zen supply stays flat... Dill supply actually goes UP.
- people getting zen for "free" are going to have to choose to spend money on Zen for the stuff they want... cause they will have new sinks for their Dill rather then just trying to sell it.
- or the handful of people that currently buy all the zen that gets converted to purple rocks... will have to buy harder.
- or somehow by some stroke of genius Cryptic will have to do what no other developer has figured out and turn their non whales into whales. If your not a whale now... just ask yourself what could Cryptic do in STO that would make me want to spend $300 every month buying dilithium ? If the answer is nothing... not shocking. Unless Cryptic gets lucky and a few hundred STO players all win lotteries.
I have no doubt Cryptic will put some sort of sink in... but really imo its all show to ensure no one believes them too greedy. The real truth is if they want to put the breaks on the overflow on the exchange they have drastically reduce dill supply.
I think your right though we have all made the same points a few times. We can agree to disagree. I see zero value in new sinks, imo this game has the perfect amount of sinks already... I'm not convinced this game has a paying player base that can do more then what they already are in terms of buying flex zen they can trade to other players. You and many other actually believe sinks are going to work... and giving people more things to spend money on will work. Anyway we'll see what Cryptic does... I'm not convinced they are going to be able to really turn it around but we'll see. I didn't think they had the stones to axe T5 dill... but they did, so I would love to be surprised.
- or the handful of people that currently buy all the zen that gets converted to purple rocks... will have to buy harder.
This is the point I've been trying to make and you are dismissing:
Because the uses of "purple rocks" are ultimately limited, there are (I know for a fact because I talk to them) people who USED to be whales who were converting to "purple rocks", and currently don't because they have no reasonable use for the "purple rocks"... because they've already done all of the ones that currently exist to their logical limits.
If a new sink were introduced, that is desirable to those people... there would in fact be more Zen going into the exchange.
So instead of "the handful of people that currently buy all the zen" buying harder, as you put it... you'd have the whales who are currently using their Zen to buy keys, promo packs, etc buying dilithium instead.
So no, your base assumption - that the number of "whales" willing to buy zen for conversion to dilithium, is finite and constant, simply isn't true.
But as you put it... "I see zero value in new sinks, imo this game has the perfect amount of sinks already." This is the base issue here... you're ignoring long time veteran players (some of them master farmers, some of them whales, some of them a bit of both) who've already maxed out all the existing sinks.
And FYI... new sinks would actually help on the supply-of-dilithium side too... because they would soak up some of the supply being generated by "master farmers".
Meanwhile... the "whales" are completely unaffected by any cuts to earnings... scarcity simply does not matter when the thing that is being made scarce is literally without use.
So we are mostly agreed then. You simply believe there is a big population of former whales just waiting to whale again. Ok fair enough.
I do know a couple "whales" myself honestly one just left the game.... and I am not so sure he will be coming back, but if he does you may not be wrong. Another whale I know is still swimming... spends about the same now as he did before, and no its not on keys... in his case he has been pouring dill into armada fleets, acting like a fleet admiral. lol I don't know how they all act you could be correct, perhaps there is a couple hundred big spenders currently buying keys and other things. Its not impossible. IF true it means cryptic doesn't have very much incentive to really change the status que honestly... but we'll see. IME most people that drop money like that don't change what they spend on all that much.
Guess we'll find out when Cryptic adds whatever magic sinks they claim to have been working on. I hope I'm wrong honestly... I don't want to see them come down on other dill sources super hard. I do believe they need to keep the game filled, I just hope whatever there doing they have thought it out a bit. None of us want another Delta style fiasco.
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rattler2Member, Star Trek Online ModeratorPosts: 58,577Community Moderator
Cryptic has said themselves that the situation is not ideal for them and that they want a more balanced economy. The fact that they tried multiple small things (with varrying degrees of success) and have a sink on the way tells me that they are exploring options and actively working on it and analyzing the data coming in.
Selling lockbox vanity shields for Dilithium: Huge success, very desirable, but finite. Only good for spikes.
Making endeavor tokens purchaseable and removing from drop table: unknown, but highly unpopular
Making Admiralty tokens purchaseable and removing from drop table: unknown, but highly unpopular. readded to drop table. (I think it was the Admiralty ones at least)
Changing T5 Dilithium Rewards: Too early to tell, mostly mixed bag. (Doesn't really bother me because instant piece of rep gear vs several days of refining)
Supply and Demand is a complex thing. And as I have pointed out on many occasions, its going to take time and a mix of things working together if we're going to see a surplus of Zen again for instant DL trades like we used to have years ago. There is no magic bullet insta fix.
[*] Changing T5 Dilithium Rewards: Too early to tell, mostly mixed bag. (Doesn't really bother me because instant piece of rep gear vs several days of refining)
Supply and Demand is a complex thing. And as I have pointed out on many occasions, its going to take time and a mix of things working together if we're going to see a surplus of Zen again for instant DL trades like we used to have years ago. There is no magic bullet insta fix.
It is too early to tell on the T5 fix. Right now things are way up but they fixed this just as they decided we needed another admiralty week... the biggest Dill creating event in game. That coupled with the fear things like admiralty will be next under the microscope... I imagine the exchange will be a little flooded for a few weeks. It will be interesting to see what things look like by June I would say. If the T5 change is going to help I would think 2-3 months is when we start seeing it.
For myself I don't really care much if they get back to surplus Zen again... as long as they find away to stabilize things at no more then a week of surplus. Waiting a few days for a conversion is probably not a bad thing for them in terms of making money... but if it slips much past that the F2Pers that fill the game start looking for new time sinks made by other developers. lol
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rattler2Member, Star Trek Online ModeratorPosts: 58,577Community Moderator
It is too early to tell on the T5 fix. Right now things are way up but they fixed this just as they decided we needed another admiralty week... the biggest Dill creating event in game. That coupled with the fear things like admiralty will be next under the microscope... I imagine the exchange will be a little flooded for a few weeks. It will be interesting to see what things look like by June I would say. If the T5 change is going to help I would think 2-3 months is when we start seeing it.
Admiralty already was under the microscope. Klingon Admiralty used to give a flat 30k Ore for ToD 10, and Ferengi did the same when it was introduced. They later changed it to Fleet Vouchers for Klingon and a 30k DL Bonus Pool for Ferengi.
It is too early to tell on the T5 fix. Right now things are way up but they fixed this just as they decided we needed another admiralty week... the biggest Dill creating event in game. That coupled with the fear things like admiralty will be next under the microscope... I imagine the exchange will be a little flooded for a few weeks. It will be interesting to see what things look like by June I would say. If the T5 change is going to help I would think 2-3 months is when we start seeing it.
Admiralty already was under the microscope. Klingon Admiralty used to give a flat 30k Ore for ToD 10, and Ferengi did the same when it was introduced. They later changed it to Fleet Vouchers for Klingon and a 30k DL Bonus Pool for Ferengi.
Oh I remember... and neither of those things was really a nerf in anyway. Also why I suggest they think a little harder on what they do to fix things going forward. The ferengi change is no different if your running admiralty missions 2-3 times a day who cares if you get the reward dolled out over a week. The KDF Fleet change yes it keep that Dill out of the exchange, but it also filled the hole in the largest sink we have. SO net zero. It wasn't a very well thought out nerf if that was what they where going for... if the T5 fix doesn't do anything, expect the 1000 and 2000 dill reward missions to get reduced or be removed.
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rattler2Member, Star Trek Online ModeratorPosts: 58,577Community Moderator
The KDF Fleet change yes it keep that Dill out of the exchange, but it also filled the hole in the largest sink we have. SO net zero.
At that point it was already filled by the larger, active fleets no longer needing it anyways. This mostly helps the smaller fleets. And honestly with it having been a copy/paste job from Klingon ToD to Ferengi ToD it made sense to change the reward anyways.
The KDF Fleet change yes it keep that Dill out of the exchange, but it also filled the hole in the largest sink we have. SO net zero.
At that point it was already filled by the larger, active fleets no longer needing it anyways. This mostly helps the smaller fleets. And honestly with it having been a copy/paste job from Klingon ToD to Ferengi ToD it made sense to change the reward anyways.
Don't get me wrong... I believe it was a good change. I think they by accident helped smaller fleets which is great. Only pointing out if the goal was to take pressure of the exchange neither of those changes did or would have any effect.
I think we'll have to wait till the end of April for the next DIL sink, which they eluded a week or two ago maybe coming then; though they didn't say what. They were also considering 1 or 2 other things... ...also didn't elude to those either.
So we'll have to wait and see, if they've reconsidered any of the numerous idea's several in Community have spoken of.
I said this was going to happen Dill was below 500, lol I hope this won't happen with the Consoles, but someone is push it. a shame too for any new players (:
> @strathkin said: > I think we'll have to wait till the end of April for the next DIL sink, which they eluded a week or two ago maybe coming then; though they didn't say what. They were also considering 1 or 2 other things... ...also didn't elude to those either. > > So we'll have to wait and see, if they've reconsidered any of the numerous idea's several in Community have spoken of.
Yeah, the trend line on the dilex has been obvious for a *LONG* time. What's not obvious is why Cryptic chose to do nothing about it for all those years.
This. I have little patience for the "there is no quick fix" argument, because it should never have reached the point where people are clamoring for a quick fix in the first place. I saw what was coming back in 2018, I think other people saw it sooner; why te heck didn't Cryptic take action years before it collapsed? I mean, we know from some of the bonkers game mechanics decisions they make that they don't actually understand their own gameplay very well, but surely they had to have seen the writing on the wall for this!
Yeah, the trend line on the dilex has been obvious for a *LONG* time. What's not obvious is why Cryptic chose to do nothing about it for all those years.
This. I have little patience for the "there is no quick fix" argument, because it should never have reached the point where people are clamoring for a quick fix in the first place. I saw what was coming back in 2018, I think other people saw it sooner; why te heck didn't Cryptic take action years before it collapsed? I mean, we know from some of the bonkers game mechanics decisions they make that they don't actually understand their own gameplay very well, but surely they had to have seen the writing on the wall for this!
Well lets not get to hysterical. It hasn't collapsed. It is backlogged... I just had an order go through today 10 days just like my last order. Granted thanks to the recent Admiralty week it is probably up to 14-16 days now... however it is not broken.
The people that actually PAY for this system... are quite happy with it being stuck at 500. Cryptics job #1 is taking care of paying customers they are a business.
I am not saying they want it to go to a months long line of sellers.... and perhaps they should have tweaked some things to keep in the day or two wait zone. Still...
I hope people aren't expecting Cryptic to put some painful "sink" in that drops the exchange under 400.
All I hear lately is a bunch of Free players wanting to punish the people actually paying Crypitc so they can enjoy EVERY item in the game while paying nothing.
Sinks are punishment for paying players >.< Cryptic is not and should not invoke draconian new "sinks" that entice paying players to throw money at the Free player mechanics.
The game has "sinks" they work and they have for a long while. Paying players drop 3-5 thousand dollars every single day to buy Purple rocks from players selling them. Expecting that all of a sudden the handful of paying players are going to start spending 8 or 9 thousand daily for the same is just plain stupid. Its not going to happen. Cryptic needs to constrain Dill supply some more yet.
Seeing as we are talking about fixing the exchange here is another idea.... seeing as Admiralty weekends are clearly a MASSIVE issue and Cryptic keeps running them.
Continue running those weekends... but on the x/10 mission rewards instead of giving 2500 dill. Give 2500 fleet dill pool on KDF, 2500 dill collection pool on ferengi... and on Fed and Romulan missions award 2500 reputation pool dill.
Also perhaps consider taking the 1000, and 2000 dill reward regular missions and making them pay in Reputation pool dill.
All I hear lately is a bunch of Free players wanting to punish the people actually paying Crypitc so they can enjoy EVERY item in the game while paying nothing.
and where is your proof regarding this statement? while i dont want to use the word, you are making assumptions with no facts. which is fine, if that is your understanding on all the postings.
there has been plenty of good ideas that cater to both free and paying players/customers.
many have offered a balance that aids both sides. some good, some not, but they have never hinted for a free player benefit over paying.
the only time something comes close to that, is the discussions about new players, or more solo players, as far as fleet holding projects: i.e. sinks.
so then the convo bends towards other options to allow sinks in other aspects that "all" players can take part in, not just free players.
now, let me advise, this is my take based on how the long convo has been going on, and that i dont see it as you, per your statement in quotes.
understand also that F2P is just that...free. people pay to get stuff faster, newer, best of, etc...but for those that dont need instant gratification, a 7 to 10 day wait is nothing. but offering ways to decrease that time, by getting the dilex below where it is, is not solely a free player mentality, as they are not the only ones using it. everyone does.
Paying customers are not upset about the exchange being pegged at 500. Its not a bad thing for people spending money.
People that keep chanting sink sink sink while at the same time booing Cryptic taking steps to stop the real issue of excess dillithium creation are mostly being disingenuous.
Anyone that talks about wanting to "Fix" the exchange... while talking about nothing but sinks rather then reduction in dill creation. Is yes without a doubt disingenuous. They want to punish the people willing to spend money... so they can get "free" zen.
Many people suggesting fixes that only involve "sinks"... don't want it fixed so they can spend more of their hard earned Dill on things in the game. They want to clear the exchange so they can buy zen with game currency. I really wonder if people don't understand every single Zen you get from the exchange is purchased by another player. Players more then happy to be getting 500 dill per Zen. They think sinks will fix things cause I guess other people trying to use the exchange will stop ? And instead of getting paid items for free will instead grind for X or Y Sink instead.
The truth is those grinders will just grind harder... so they can still get their "free" Zen, and perhaps pay into whatever Sink they suggesting if they care too.
The issue is simple... the game has way way too much Dill in it. Cause its way way to easy to get way way too much of it. The issue isn't the handful of whales that spend 3-5 thousand dollars every day on Zen they trade to free players to buy non free items. Imagine Cryptic changes something that dropped that 500 dill price down to 400 tomorrow.... Are the whales going to start spending 20% more to make up for the reduction in the value of Zen ? I don't think they will... and I am pretty sure Cryptic knows they won't.
A few new Sinks might be good for the game if they are done right and don't just punish paying players sure. But at the end of the day the only real issue is the millions of Dill far to many players are earning weekly.
Sinks are punishment for paying players >.< Cryptic is not and should not invoke draconian new "sinks" that entice paying players to throw money at the Free player mechanics.
No... Sinks are costs associated with certain activities/transactions. If you see sinks as a punishment, then you are part of the problem.
You seem to forget that CRYPTIC established the Dilithium Exchange as the central focus to draw in as many people as possible by allowing them to get the things that people buy Zen for by trading RD which is representative of time and effort put into actually playing the game.
Cryptic made a conscious choice to stop producing Fleet Holdings, which were a significant RD sink, while at the same time doubling... no... TRIPPLING down on Zen-purchase items, thus becoming directly responsible for devaluing RD and making it so that far less Zen gets put up on the DilEx. Because to those with Zen to trade, RD is a worthless currency. That is why the DilEx is backlogged.
As I have said before, It doesn't matter how much or how fast RD comes into the game. What matters is that there is nothing to do with it once you have it. If there were things worth spending it on that would require a lot of grinding, people with Zen to spare would spare it for the RD needed to take the edge off. RD was not just moving on the exchange... It was flowing smoothly back before Cryptic decided that producing fleet holdings was too much like work and decided that it was better to just sit back and release ship after ship after ship for Zen.
They claim to work so hard. What in the last year have they actually done aside from make yet more kill everything that moves TFOs and yet another dalliance with the mirror universe. So we got Kate Mulgrew's voice in the game now. Big deal. I'd be more impressed with the game if the budget to pay veteran Trek Actors to do voice work went into actual game development. How many code-jockeys might they have hired if developing and regularly deploying compelling gameplay were a priority.
But it's not a priority. Selling ships is. That's all they really care about. All ships do is let us look a little different while doing the same things over and over. And the content they do release is more or less doing the same things we've always been doing that just look a little different.
Other MMOs take months and months to deliver new content as well... The difference is that when they do release new content, it's a whole bunch of it, and there are also usually new mechanics and processes to go with it. And those games actually CHARGE MONEY for it, thus making it profitable and therefore a priority.
I no longer lay all the blame at PWE's feet. They have had their role in things, but at the end of the day, Cryptic is producing the game. If they really gave a damn, they would find a way to make the things that require actual work a priority.
A quick fix IS what the DilEx needs to get it back to working efficiently. That fix is called getting back to doing what they did before it ended up the way it is now. Anything short of ACTUAL DEVELOPMENT of stuff on the RD side is just a band-aid solution to an arterial problem.
But as I have also said before, I think that deep down, Cryptic wants the DilEx to be all sideways. They won't charge for gameplay and features and mechanics. But they will continue to double down on Zen-purchase items. And I do fear that the sink they are working on will take on the form of a punishment. Not to those who spend real money. But the people Cryptic has bloated its player base with: Those who do not have the money to spend, or the desire to spend it. .
That is my perception.
As I see it Cryptic has two very different streams of Zen.
They have people spending money on Zen items... ship packs and the like.
They have people buying Zen they don't intend to use themselves on items... cause they want game currency.
Most of us if we buy Zen we are buying it for ourselves. Sure perhaps we do sell some Dill... and we aren't pure F2P, but we also don't buy grind currency. Sure some people are pure F2P...but I would suggest most players spend at least a little, perhaps not a ton but a little.
The thing about buyers of grind currencies like Dill... is they are a very small group of players. This group is hard to grow from a developer point of view. This also makes it very important you don't loose them.
One way you keep those people buying Zen to trade to the F2P mechanic... is by giving them a good return. 500 per is a d ecent return. Now that we have had things at 500 for a year... I would suggest Cryptic in NO way wants the exchange to drop much under 500 ever again, or the game may well end. If your not a buyer of purple rocks, put yourself in their shoes for a moment. For a year you have been converting real life $ to dill at a rate of 500/1 zero wait time... not putting an offer out at 500 and waiting a day for it to drift back up from 498 ect. Now imagine Cryptic adds on to the in game things that had you BUYing purple rocks. Now lets say your rocks are costing you 450/1... are you happy as a spending customer ? Do you think Cryptic is getting greedy ?
I'm not suggesting in anyway Cryptic can't do better. I believe ideas like putting all the event things in the Phoenix boxes while continuing to offer unlocks in Mudds is a good solution. I have heard other options as well that make sense. However we still have to deal with the elephant in the room. The people in that "I will buy in game currency I could just grind" category spend 3-5 THOUSAND dollars a day right now. I don't expect it a massively large group of players, and people dreaming that Cryptic should be adding "sinks" to the game and dropping the exchange down 20% to 400 or so are out to punish that small group of players. They will be spending 20% more if the exchange was to drop there. On top of that the same sinks are going to effect them... so their Dill will cost 20% more and Cryptic will be asking them for who knows how much more dill in game as well. Too drop the exchange that much it would probably be at least a 20% bump in game as well.
That translates to what a 40% or so tax on the small group of players paying to keep this game F2P. If that group of player decide its not worth it... the problem explodes even more then it already is. Right now they spend $3-5 thousand daily. Sinks on the magnitude required to drop the exchange from 500 to even high 400s while not touching the over supply will require that group to spend probably 40% more. So your now asking this small group of players to spend 5-9k a day. They might leave instead. Then things really crash... imagine if the 200 or so people spending 5 thousand on a Saturday right now drop to 100 people. That 5k could drop to 3k..... at that point the exchange backlog would grow even faster.
The only real solution is to constrain the over supply. The "whale" or grind currency purchasers whatever we want to call that group of players.... are not really going to adjust their spend all that much. (a player dropping 50 bucks every weekend for a year isn't going to start spending 75 for the same or less return) So the only way to keep the exchange moving is to deal with the real issue, oversupply. Having said that they also want to keep dill as close to 500 as they can and perhaps even at 500 with a short wait on sales. As they also want to keep the purchasing players happy with the return they are getting.
Its a fine line Cryptic needs to walk. Just throwing a bunch of new Sinks may well turn out to be a delta expansion deal. I doubt the game would support another Colony style holding. With the current supply anything less isn't going to really do anything.
Sinks are punishment for paying players >.< Cryptic is not and should not invoke draconian new "sinks" that entice paying players to throw money at the Free player mechanics.
No... Sinks are costs associated with certain activities/transactions. If you see sinks as a punishment, then you are part of the problem.
You seem to forget that CRYPTIC established the Dilithium Exchange as the central focus to draw in as many people as possible by allowing them to get the things that people buy Zen for by trading RD which is representative of time and effort put into actually playing the game.
Cryptic made a conscious choice to stop producing Fleet Holdings, which were a significant RD sink, while at the same time doubling... no... TRIPPLING down on Zen-purchase items, thus becoming directly responsible for devaluing RD and making it so that far less Zen gets put up on the DilEx. Because to those with Zen to trade, RD is a worthless currency. That is why the DilEx is backlogged.
As I have said before, It doesn't matter how much or how fast RD comes into the game. What matters is that there is nothing to do with it once you have it. If there were things worth spending it on that would require a lot of grinding, people with Zen to spare would spare it for the RD needed to take the edge off. RD was not just moving on the exchange... It was flowing smoothly back before Cryptic decided that producing fleet holdings was too much like work and decided that it was better to just sit back and release ship after ship after ship for Zen.
They claim to work so hard. What in the last year have they actually done aside from make yet more kill everything that moves TFOs and yet another dalliance with the mirror universe. So we got Kate Mulgrew's voice in the game now. Big deal. I'd be more impressed with the game if the budget to pay veteran Trek Actors to do voice work went into actual game development. How many code-jockeys might they have hired if developing and regularly deploying compelling gameplay were a priority.
But it's not a priority. Selling ships is. That's all they really care about. All ships do is let us look a little different while doing the same things over and over. And the content they do release is more or less doing the same things we've always been doing that just look a little different.
Other MMOs take months and months to deliver new content as well... The difference is that when they do release new content, it's a whole bunch of it, and there are also usually new mechanics and processes to go with it. And those games actually CHARGE MONEY for it, thus making it profitable and therefore a priority.
I no longer lay all the blame at PWE's feet. They have had their role in things, but at the end of the day, Cryptic is producing the game. If they really gave a damn, they would find a way to make the things that require actual work a priority.
A quick fix IS what the DilEx needs to get it back to working efficiently. That fix is called getting back to doing what they did before it ended up the way it is now. Anything short of ACTUAL DEVELOPMENT of stuff on the RD side is just a band-aid solution to an arterial problem.
But as I have also said before, I think that deep down, Cryptic wants the DilEx to be all sideways. They won't charge for gameplay and features and mechanics. But they will continue to double down on Zen-purchase items. And I do fear that the sink they are working on will take on the form of a punishment. Not to those who spend real money. But the people Cryptic has bloated its player base with: Those who do not have the money to spend, or the desire to spend it. .
That is my perception.
As I see it Cryptic has two very different streams of Zen.
They have people spending money on Zen items... ship packs and the like.
They have people buying Zen they don't intend to use themselves on items... cause they want game currency.
Most of us if we buy Zen we are buying it for ourselves. Sure perhaps we do sell some Dill... and we aren't pure F2P, but we also don't buy grind currency. Sure some people are pure F2P...but I would suggest most players spend at least a little, perhaps not a ton but a little.
The thing about buyers of grind currencies like Dill... is they are a very small group of players. This group is hard to grow from a developer point of view. This also makes it very important you don't loose them.
One way you keep those people buying Zen to trade to the F2P mechanic... is by giving them a good return. 500 per is a d ecent return. Now that we have had things at 500 for a year... I would suggest Cryptic in NO way wants the exchange to drop much under 500 ever again, or the game may well end. If your not a buyer of purple rocks, put yourself in their shoes for a moment. For a year you have been converting real life $ to dill at a rate of 500/1 zero wait time... not putting an offer out at 500 and waiting a day for it to drift back up from 498 ect. Now imagine Cryptic adds on to the in game things that had you BUYing purple rocks. Now lets say your rocks are costing you 450/1... are you happy as a spending customer ? Do you think Cryptic is getting greedy ?
I'm not suggesting in anyway Cryptic can't do better. I believe ideas like putting all the event things in the Phoenix boxes while continuing to offer unlocks in Mudds is a good solution. I have heard other options as well that make sense. However we still have to deal with the elephant in the room. The people in that "I will buy in game currency I could just grind" category spend 3-5 THOUSAND dollars a day right now. I don't expect it a massively large group of players, and people dreaming that Cryptic should be adding "sinks" to the game and dropping the exchange down 20% to 400 or so are out to punish that small group of players. They will be spending 20% more if the exchange was to drop there. On top of that the same sinks are going to effect them... so their Dill will cost 20% more and Cryptic will be asking them for who knows how much more dill in game as well. Too drop the exchange that much it would probably be at least a 20% bump in game as well.
That translates to what a 40% or so tax on the small group of players paying to keep this game F2P. If that group of player decide its not worth it... the problem explodes even more then it already is. Right now they spend $3-5 thousand daily. Sinks on the magnitude required to drop the exchange from 500 to even high 400s while not touching the over supply will require that group to spend probably 40% more. So your now asking this small group of players to spend 5-9k a day. They might leave instead. Then things really crash... imagine if the 200 or so people spending 5 thousand on a Saturday right now drop to 100 people. That 5k could drop to 3k..... at that point the exchange backlog would grow even faster.
The only real solution is to constrain the over supply. The "whale" or grind currency purchasers whatever we want to call that group of players.... are not really going to adjust their spend all that much. (a player dropping 50 bucks every weekend for a year isn't going to start spending 75 for the same or less return) So the only way to keep the exchange moving is to deal with the real issue, oversupply. Having said that they also want to keep dill as close to 500 as they can and perhaps even at 500 with a short wait on sales. As they also want to keep the purchasing players happy with the return they are getting.
Its a fine line Cryptic needs to walk. Just throwing a bunch of new Sinks may well turn out to be a delta expansion deal. I doubt the game would support another Colony style holding. With the current supply anything less isn't going to really do anything.
As I have said before.... your entire argument is based on the flawed assumption that the number of people who ARE Zen-buying dilithium, and the amount they are spending on it, is an unchangeable constant.
The problem with that is... I know you hate this... but sinks. Every sink we have is ultimately limited by logic. At some point every player (regardless of how they are getting their dilithium) is going to run out of things they are willing to do with it (whether that's fleet projects, item upgrades, etc.).
There are VERY LIKELY players who USED TO Zen-buy dilithium, but have stopped because they hit those limits. If a new and desirable sink were introduced, those players may start Zen-buying dilithium again.
And at the same time, cutting earnings will have no effect *on those players*, because right now, their demand for dilithium is ZERO.
So no, we're not necessarily asking the people currently spending (in total) $3K-$5K per day to increase their purchasing. We're saying that there's *other* buyers out there who have goine into hibernation that it may be possible to wake up.
Fair... I expect (but don't know) that the cash value of zen being traded probably hasn't changed much in ages. I think the truth is the vast majority of the old sinks people point to (fleets) where never really cash sinks on the level people assume they where. Perhaps some of those will relieve the oversupply... but I'm not convinced. I think most people won't sacrifice their Zen purchasing power for reasonable sinks.
Anyway... Cryptic knows exactly how much Zen has been put though the F2P exchange. I think if your right then sure we'll see some sinks cause that is an obvious fix. If on the other hand they look and see a good Saturday has been 5k for 5 years... then they better hit supply with the stick. We'll see what they do... I hope I pointed out something most people haven't been thinking about over their own needs. We need the people buying to keep buying... and the massive sinks that would be required to pull the exchange back down now that it is backlogged 6 million zen may well cost those Zen for Rock purchasers and end up crashing the thing even faster. If they go to hard it will yo-yo is my point.... it i'll drop but if they loose the people putting the $ in it will back up even worse.
And at the same time, cutting earnings will have no effect *on those players*, because right now, their demand for dilithium is ZERO.
This is true, it will not effect players already sitting on mountains of Dilithium. That doesn't mean that supply doesn't need a reduction.
First of all, you have the rest of the player base to consider, but ignoring that and looking at the players you are talking about, once they spend that Dilithium, you don't want them replenishing their stock overnight. I am on board with every part of your argument except this one, you cannot ignore the supply side of a supply and demand market.
Sinks are needed, but without a reduction it's only a half measure.
Comments
I understand your point I just completely disagree with you.
Dar be whales here Captain. Yes there are people buying Zen to buy Rocks every single day. I know you worked the math out 3-5 thousand dollars every single day worth. Clearly that is almost entirely whale money. I also don't mean whale in a derogatory... yes there is a small % of the player base that is spending 200-400 bucks a month on purple rocks. We know that cause well its how everyone is getting their "Free" zen right.
Again for everyone saying we need sinks sinks sinks.
For sinks to work;
- people can't just choose to grind harder to pay for them... in which case Cryptic gets engagement I guess but no extra money, and the exchange is not relieved at all. Zen supply stays flat... Dill supply actually goes UP.
- people getting zen for "free" are going to have to choose to spend money on Zen for the stuff they want... cause they will have new sinks for their Dill rather then just trying to sell it.
- or the handful of people that currently buy all the zen that gets converted to purple rocks... will have to buy harder.
- or somehow by some stroke of genius Cryptic will have to do what no other developer has figured out and turn their non whales into whales. If your not a whale now... just ask yourself what could Cryptic do in STO that would make me want to spend $300 every month buying dilithium ? If the answer is nothing... not shocking. Unless Cryptic gets lucky and a few hundred STO players all win lotteries.
I have no doubt Cryptic will put some sort of sink in... but really imo its all show to ensure no one believes them too greedy. The real truth is if they want to put the breaks on the overflow on the exchange they have drastically reduce dill supply.
I think your right though we have all made the same points a few times. We can agree to disagree. I see zero value in new sinks, imo this game has the perfect amount of sinks already... I'm not convinced this game has a paying player base that can do more then what they already are in terms of buying flex zen they can trade to other players. You and many other actually believe sinks are going to work... and giving people more things to spend money on will work. Anyway we'll see what Cryptic does... I'm not convinced they are going to be able to really turn it around but we'll see. I didn't think they had the stones to axe T5 dill... but they did, so I would love to be surprised.
So we are mostly agreed then. You simply believe there is a big population of former whales just waiting to whale again. Ok fair enough.
I do know a couple "whales" myself honestly one just left the game.... and I am not so sure he will be coming back, but if he does you may not be wrong. Another whale I know is still swimming... spends about the same now as he did before, and no its not on keys... in his case he has been pouring dill into armada fleets, acting like a fleet admiral. lol I don't know how they all act you could be correct, perhaps there is a couple hundred big spenders currently buying keys and other things. Its not impossible. IF true it means cryptic doesn't have very much incentive to really change the status que honestly... but we'll see. IME most people that drop money like that don't change what they spend on all that much.
Guess we'll find out when Cryptic adds whatever magic sinks they claim to have been working on. I hope I'm wrong honestly... I don't want to see them come down on other dill sources super hard. I do believe they need to keep the game filled, I just hope whatever there doing they have thought it out a bit. None of us want another Delta style fiasco.
Supply and Demand is a complex thing. And as I have pointed out on many occasions, its going to take time and a mix of things working together if we're going to see a surplus of Zen again for instant DL trades like we used to have years ago. There is no magic bullet insta fix.
It is too early to tell on the T5 fix. Right now things are way up but they fixed this just as they decided we needed another admiralty week... the biggest Dill creating event in game. That coupled with the fear things like admiralty will be next under the microscope... I imagine the exchange will be a little flooded for a few weeks. It will be interesting to see what things look like by June I would say. If the T5 change is going to help I would think 2-3 months is when we start seeing it.
For myself I don't really care much if they get back to surplus Zen again... as long as they find away to stabilize things at no more then a week of surplus. Waiting a few days for a conversion is probably not a bad thing for them in terms of making money... but if it slips much past that the F2Pers that fill the game start looking for new time sinks made by other developers. lol
Admiralty already was under the microscope. Klingon Admiralty used to give a flat 30k Ore for ToD 10, and Ferengi did the same when it was introduced. They later changed it to Fleet Vouchers for Klingon and a 30k DL Bonus Pool for Ferengi.
Oh I remember... and neither of those things was really a nerf in anyway. Also why I suggest they think a little harder on what they do to fix things going forward. The ferengi change is no different if your running admiralty missions 2-3 times a day who cares if you get the reward dolled out over a week. The KDF Fleet change yes it keep that Dill out of the exchange, but it also filled the hole in the largest sink we have. SO net zero. It wasn't a very well thought out nerf if that was what they where going for... if the T5 fix doesn't do anything, expect the 1000 and 2000 dill reward missions to get reduced or be removed.
At that point it was already filled by the larger, active fleets no longer needing it anyways. This mostly helps the smaller fleets. And honestly with it having been a copy/paste job from Klingon ToD to Ferengi ToD it made sense to change the reward anyways.
Don't get me wrong... I believe it was a good change. I think they by accident helped smaller fleets which is great. Only pointing out if the goal was to take pressure of the exchange neither of those changes did or would have any effect.
So we'll have to wait and see, if they've reconsidered any of the numerous idea's several in Community have spoken of.
From: https://reddit.com/r/sto/comments/u0l0v6/dilithium_exchange_2014_2021/ Credit to: u/Tidus17/
Thankfully they stuffed Neverwinter instead of this game with the dumbest "solution" they could come up with.
> I think we'll have to wait till the end of April for the next DIL sink, which they eluded a week or two ago maybe coming then; though they didn't say what. They were also considering 1 or 2 other things... ...also didn't elude to those either.
>
> So we'll have to wait and see, if they've reconsidered any of the numerous idea's several in Community have spoken of.
I think you mean “alluded to” not “eluded.”
This. I have little patience for the "there is no quick fix" argument, because it should never have reached the point where people are clamoring for a quick fix in the first place. I saw what was coming back in 2018, I think other people saw it sooner; why te heck didn't Cryptic take action years before it collapsed? I mean, we know from some of the bonkers game mechanics decisions they make that they don't actually understand their own gameplay very well, but surely they had to have seen the writing on the wall for this!
Well lets not get to hysterical. It hasn't collapsed. It is backlogged... I just had an order go through today 10 days just like my last order. Granted thanks to the recent Admiralty week it is probably up to 14-16 days now... however it is not broken.
The people that actually PAY for this system... are quite happy with it being stuck at 500. Cryptics job #1 is taking care of paying customers they are a business.
I am not saying they want it to go to a months long line of sellers.... and perhaps they should have tweaked some things to keep in the day or two wait zone. Still...
I hope people aren't expecting Cryptic to put some painful "sink" in that drops the exchange under 400.
All I hear lately is a bunch of Free players wanting to punish the people actually paying Crypitc so they can enjoy EVERY item in the game while paying nothing.
Sinks are punishment for paying players >.< Cryptic is not and should not invoke draconian new "sinks" that entice paying players to throw money at the Free player mechanics.
The game has "sinks" they work and they have for a long while. Paying players drop 3-5 thousand dollars every single day to buy Purple rocks from players selling them. Expecting that all of a sudden the handful of paying players are going to start spending 8 or 9 thousand daily for the same is just plain stupid. Its not going to happen. Cryptic needs to constrain Dill supply some more yet.
Continue running those weekends... but on the x/10 mission rewards instead of giving 2500 dill. Give 2500 fleet dill pool on KDF, 2500 dill collection pool on ferengi... and on Fed and Romulan missions award 2500 reputation pool dill.
Also perhaps consider taking the 1000, and 2000 dill reward regular missions and making them pay in Reputation pool dill.
Paying customers are not upset about the exchange being pegged at 500. Its not a bad thing for people spending money.
People that keep chanting sink sink sink while at the same time booing Cryptic taking steps to stop the real issue of excess dillithium creation are mostly being disingenuous.
Anyone that talks about wanting to "Fix" the exchange... while talking about nothing but sinks rather then reduction in dill creation. Is yes without a doubt disingenuous. They want to punish the people willing to spend money... so they can get "free" zen.
Many people suggesting fixes that only involve "sinks"... don't want it fixed so they can spend more of their hard earned Dill on things in the game. They want to clear the exchange so they can buy zen with game currency. I really wonder if people don't understand every single Zen you get from the exchange is purchased by another player. Players more then happy to be getting 500 dill per Zen. They think sinks will fix things cause I guess other people trying to use the exchange will stop ? And instead of getting paid items for free will instead grind for X or Y Sink instead.
The truth is those grinders will just grind harder... so they can still get their "free" Zen, and perhaps pay into whatever Sink they suggesting if they care too.
The issue is simple... the game has way way too much Dill in it. Cause its way way to easy to get way way too much of it. The issue isn't the handful of whales that spend 3-5 thousand dollars every day on Zen they trade to free players to buy non free items. Imagine Cryptic changes something that dropped that 500 dill price down to 400 tomorrow.... Are the whales going to start spending 20% more to make up for the reduction in the value of Zen ? I don't think they will... and I am pretty sure Cryptic knows they won't.
A few new Sinks might be good for the game if they are done right and don't just punish paying players sure. But at the end of the day the only real issue is the millions of Dill far to many players are earning weekly.
As I see it Cryptic has two very different streams of Zen.
They have people spending money on Zen items... ship packs and the like.
They have people buying Zen they don't intend to use themselves on items... cause they want game currency.
Most of us if we buy Zen we are buying it for ourselves. Sure perhaps we do sell some Dill... and we aren't pure F2P, but we also don't buy grind currency. Sure some people are pure F2P...but I would suggest most players spend at least a little, perhaps not a ton but a little.
The thing about buyers of grind currencies like Dill... is they are a very small group of players. This group is hard to grow from a developer point of view. This also makes it very important you don't loose them.
One way you keep those people buying Zen to trade to the F2P mechanic... is by giving them a good return. 500 per is a d ecent return. Now that we have had things at 500 for a year... I would suggest Cryptic in NO way wants the exchange to drop much under 500 ever again, or the game may well end. If your not a buyer of purple rocks, put yourself in their shoes for a moment. For a year you have been converting real life $ to dill at a rate of 500/1 zero wait time... not putting an offer out at 500 and waiting a day for it to drift back up from 498 ect. Now imagine Cryptic adds on to the in game things that had you BUYing purple rocks. Now lets say your rocks are costing you 450/1... are you happy as a spending customer ? Do you think Cryptic is getting greedy ?
I'm not suggesting in anyway Cryptic can't do better. I believe ideas like putting all the event things in the Phoenix boxes while continuing to offer unlocks in Mudds is a good solution. I have heard other options as well that make sense. However we still have to deal with the elephant in the room. The people in that "I will buy in game currency I could just grind" category spend 3-5 THOUSAND dollars a day right now. I don't expect it a massively large group of players, and people dreaming that Cryptic should be adding "sinks" to the game and dropping the exchange down 20% to 400 or so are out to punish that small group of players. They will be spending 20% more if the exchange was to drop there. On top of that the same sinks are going to effect them... so their Dill will cost 20% more and Cryptic will be asking them for who knows how much more dill in game as well. Too drop the exchange that much it would probably be at least a 20% bump in game as well.
That translates to what a 40% or so tax on the small group of players paying to keep this game F2P. If that group of player decide its not worth it... the problem explodes even more then it already is. Right now they spend $3-5 thousand daily. Sinks on the magnitude required to drop the exchange from 500 to even high 400s while not touching the over supply will require that group to spend probably 40% more. So your now asking this small group of players to spend 5-9k a day. They might leave instead. Then things really crash... imagine if the 200 or so people spending 5 thousand on a Saturday right now drop to 100 people. That 5k could drop to 3k..... at that point the exchange backlog would grow even faster.
The only real solution is to constrain the over supply. The "whale" or grind currency purchasers whatever we want to call that group of players.... are not really going to adjust their spend all that much. (a player dropping 50 bucks every weekend for a year isn't going to start spending 75 for the same or less return) So the only way to keep the exchange moving is to deal with the real issue, oversupply. Having said that they also want to keep dill as close to 500 as they can and perhaps even at 500 with a short wait on sales. As they also want to keep the purchasing players happy with the return they are getting.
Its a fine line Cryptic needs to walk. Just throwing a bunch of new Sinks may well turn out to be a delta expansion deal. I doubt the game would support another Colony style holding. With the current supply anything less isn't going to really do anything.
Fair... I expect (but don't know) that the cash value of zen being traded probably hasn't changed much in ages. I think the truth is the vast majority of the old sinks people point to (fleets) where never really cash sinks on the level people assume they where. Perhaps some of those will relieve the oversupply... but I'm not convinced. I think most people won't sacrifice their Zen purchasing power for reasonable sinks.
Anyway... Cryptic knows exactly how much Zen has been put though the F2P exchange. I think if your right then sure we'll see some sinks cause that is an obvious fix. If on the other hand they look and see a good Saturday has been 5k for 5 years... then they better hit supply with the stick. We'll see what they do... I hope I pointed out something most people haven't been thinking about over their own needs. We need the people buying to keep buying... and the massive sinks that would be required to pull the exchange back down now that it is backlogged 6 million zen may well cost those Zen for Rock purchasers and end up crashing the thing even faster. If they go to hard it will yo-yo is my point.... it i'll drop but if they loose the people putting the $ in it will back up even worse.
This is true, it will not effect players already sitting on mountains of Dilithium. That doesn't mean that supply doesn't need a reduction.
First of all, you have the rest of the player base to consider, but ignoring that and looking at the players you are talking about, once they spend that Dilithium, you don't want them replenishing their stock overnight. I am on board with every part of your argument except this one, you cannot ignore the supply side of a supply and demand market.
Sinks are needed, but without a reduction it's only a half measure.