And as I've said before in similar threads: we don't - just - need sinks.
They also a need to incentivise more players to spend some money, in order to reduce the demand for dilithium-purchased Zen. It's not just that there's too much supply of dilithium and too little to spend it on, apparently there's also too much demand for dilithium-purchased Zen.
Bring back subscriptions, add more interesting stuff in them, create other things like unique uniforms and species that can only be obtained with small sums of real money. Instead of only focussing on creating and selling hugely overpriced ship packs that only scare off people who might be willing to spend some money on a game, but not the price of multiple games on one unlock.
/Merged thread "READ ME" into thread on same subject. Please do not create duplicate posts when there is already an active post on the subject. Thank you.
Star Trek Online Volunteer Community Moderator and Resident She-Wolf
Community Moderators are Unpaid Volunteers and NOT Employees of Gearbox/Cryptic
Views and Opinions May Not Reflect the Views and Opinions of Gearbox/Cryptic
I know some don't want to hear this.... The exchange isn't really broken. Its still working fine. It simply has a couple week backlog right now.
Why is it backlogged... cause its too easy to farm Dill... and there aren't enough things that would make people consider using it themselves rather then selling it to another player.
New "sinks" won't fix it completely cause too many people would prefer to have zen. Most people talking about sinks just want other people to use their darn Dill already so the exchange will be free for them to use instantly again. (most aren't planning to all of a sudden throw their farmed dill into fleet projects... they just want others too. lol)
Nerfing dill creation down to the ground with silly account caps also won't work... cause free players aren't going to all of a sudden turn into paying ones cause the game doesn't give them a choice. They'll just tap out.
The solutions and we all know we all know what they are...
1 choke the over supply from things that are too easy to exploit. (Ok Cryptic has already went there... no more rolling new toons and getting 500k in dill a month later), will they have to go further and look more at Admiralty or ending some events like Admiralty week, or week long red alerts ? (who knows but they may have to do all those things).
2 actually develop their game... add new gear that needs to be upgraded (not gold uni consoles on new Zen packs). Perhaps instead of giving away gold uni consoles as event rewards, start giving some blue mk 12 weapons and the like things that players will throw resources at upgrading. Add fleet holdings if need be... or just add new gear to the holdings we have. Add new reputation gear... add new mission gear. ADD new and interesting items that require resources to use to their fullest. If that fails just pop the gear mark up another tick and let the entire game burn upgrades.
Now we know they are going to add to Phoenix... and that may work out well depending what they add and how. Point is the exchange isn't so far gone it can't be back to a healthy instant conversion OR a few day wait anyway which is perfectly acceptable. Its not doom time.
As for the concerns about the EC market.... well again give people things to burn resources on and the exchange gets flowing. Right now there is so little for the long time players to do... they are hording and sitting on things rather then engaging in Exchange PvP. Most are of the feeling what is the point. IMO anyway. Develop the actual game a little and the spice will flow.
2 actually develop their game... add new gear that needs to be upgraded (not gold uni consoles on new Zen packs). Perhaps instead of giving away gold uni consoles as event rewards, start giving some blue mk 12 weapons and the like things that players will throw resources at upgrading. Add fleet holdings if need be... or just add new gear to the holdings we have. Add new reputation gear... add new mission gear. ADD new and interesting items that require resources to use to their fullest. If that fails just pop the gear mark up another tick and let the entire game burn upgrades.
Just to point out... most, if not all, of those "gold uni consoles" you're talking about are uniques that are designed to be non-upgradeable. (Not that they are being given away "already upgraded", I mean.)
Fair. Just saying for events why give away things that can't be upgraded. Give away gear that can be upgraded. Leave the gold uni consoles for zen ship purchases.
And as I've said before in similar threads: we don't - just - need sinks.
They also a need to incentivise more players to spend some money, in order to reduce the demand for dilithium-purchased Zen. It's not just that there's too much supply of dilithium and too little to spend it on, apparently there's also too much demand for dilithium-purchased Zen.
Bring back subscriptions, add more interesting stuff in them, create other things like unique uniforms and species that can only be obtained with small sums of real money. Instead of only focussing on creating and selling hugely overpriced ship packs that only scare off people who might be willing to spend some money on a game, but not the price of multiple games on one unlock.
They clearly have created enough incentive for those who want to spend money as remember - ALL ZEN (including the Zen traded on the Dil Exchange) was purchased with real money by someone. yes, the person putting Dill up on the Exchange to get Zen is not paying for said Zen with real money; but the person who put the Zen up to get refined Dil did.
So, yeah, the fact is - Cryptic needs some more things players want that cost refined Dil (IE more Dil sinks that offer things players will actually want to have refined Dil on hand for.)
There is no actual "Free Zen" in STO. All Zen availabe in the game has been paid for by someone with real money at some point.
Formerly known as Armsman from June 2008 to June 20, 2012 PWE ARC Drone says: "Your STO forum community as you have known it is ended...Display names are irrelevant...Any further sense of community is irrelevant...Resistance is futile...You will be assimilated..."
And as I've said before in similar threads: we don't - just - need sinks.
They also a need to incentivise more players to spend some money, in order to reduce the demand for dilithium-purchased Zen. It's not just that there's too much supply of dilithium and too little to spend it on, apparently there's also too much demand for dilithium-purchased Zen.
Bring back subscriptions, add more interesting stuff in them, create other things like unique uniforms and species that can only be obtained with small sums of real money. Instead of only focussing on creating and selling hugely overpriced ship packs that only scare off people who might be willing to spend some money on a game, but not the price of multiple games on one unlock.
They clearly have created enough incentive for those who want to spend money as remember - ALL ZEN (including the Zen traded on the Dil Exchange) was purchased with real money by someone. yes, the person putting Dill up on the Exchange to get Zen is not paying for said Zen with real money; but the person who put the Zen up to get refined Dil did.
So, yeah, the fact is - Cryptic needs some more things players want that cost refined Dil (IE more Dil sinks that offer things players will actually want to have refined Dil on hand for.)
There is no actual "Free Zen" in STO. All Zen available in the game has been paid for by someone with real money at some point.
The parts I have bolded in the quote above apparently need to be repeated over and over and over and over, because many of the people posting in this overly long thread clearly do not understand this.
And as I've said before in similar threads: we don't - just - need sinks.
They also a need to incentivise more players to spend some money, in order to reduce the demand for dilithium-purchased Zen. It's not just that there's too much supply of dilithium and too little to spend it on, apparently there's also too much demand for dilithium-purchased Zen.
Bring back subscriptions, add more interesting stuff in them, create other things like unique uniforms and species that can only be obtained with small sums of real money. Instead of only focussing on creating and selling hugely overpriced ship packs that only scare off people who might be willing to spend some money on a game, but not the price of multiple games on one unlock.
They clearly have created enough incentive for those who want to spend money as remember - ALL ZEN (including the Zen traded on the Dil Exchange) was purchased with real money by someone. yes, the person putting Dill up on the Exchange to get Zen is not paying for said Zen with real money; but the person who put the Zen up to get refined Dil did.
So, yeah, the fact is - Cryptic needs some more things players want that cost refined Dil (IE more Dil sinks that offer things players will actually want to have refined Dil on hand for.)
There is no actual "Free Zen" in STO. All Zen available in the game has been paid for by someone with real money at some point.
The parts I have bolded in the quote above apparently need to be repeated over and over and over and over, because many of the people posting in this overly long thread clearly do not understand this.
That's not how I see it. The ZEN I have I see as free as it doesnt cost me any money. I am not paying for future ZEN that I get. STO has tons of free ZEN that was generated without extra real money being spent.
I know some don't want to hear this.... The exchange isn't really broken. Its still working fine. It simply has a couple week backlog right now.
This kind of comment is so extremely tiring. We're not children, and you aren't the only adult in the room. We know the actual mechanics of exchange itself aren't technically "broken". It's the system (supply & demand, or lack thereof) that is "broken". Drop the "I know some don't want to hear this" nonsense. This discussion has absolutely nothing to do with anyone "not wanting to hear" anything.
I know some don't want to hear this.... The exchange isn't really broken. Its still working fine. It simply has a couple week backlog right now.
This kind of comment is so extremely tiring. We're not children, and you aren't the only adult in the room. We know the actual mechanics of exchange itself aren't technically "broken". It's the system (supply & demand, or lack thereof) that is "broken". Drop the "I know some don't want to hear this" nonsense. This discussion has absolutely nothing to do with anyone "not wanting to hear" anything.
Of course many folks such as yourself understand the game needs to change in a few ways for the system to operate as most expect it too.
However in this thread I was responding to people suggesting over the top fixes like 16,000 account dil refine limits. Also there are 9 pages of people QQing about Cryptic fixing the T5 dill exploit. (ok ok ya its not an exploit... it was just super exploitable)
Except it's not entirely true. Lifetime subscribers get 500z a month for 'free.' How much of that goes onto the dilex and how much gets spend in the c-store is a different matter. But there is 'free' zen coming into the game.
(how 'free' this Zen is can be debated based on how a lifer values the various benefits of the lifetime sub cost and how long they've had it)
Well... technically you paid for some of it. Until you 'build up' enough stipend Zen to cover the initial cost of the Lifer Sub its technically all paid for. After that... its free Zen.
Except it's not entirely true. Lifetime subscribers get 500z a month for 'free.' How much of that goes onto the dilex and how much gets spend in the c-store is a different matter. But there is 'free' zen coming into the game.
(how 'free' this Zen is can be debated based on how a lifer values the various benefits of the lifetime sub cost and how long they've had it)
Well... technically you paid for some of it. Until you 'build up' enough stipend Zen to cover the initial cost of the Lifer Sub its technically all paid for. After that... its free Zen.
I would say it never becomes free zen... just the price paid for the zen goes down the longer the game lasts.
Your way around is more like people celebrating tax free day in May... claiming you have paid all their taxes now so your now working for you.
I prefer to think of it as ... 3.3 years till your zen costs what it costs everyone else. If you have a day one lifetime you paid upfront to get 12 years of zen at a 75% discount. lol (if you bought a life time account 6 years ago your only really getting your monthly zen at half off still)
Except it's not entirely true. Lifetime subscribers get 500z a month for 'free.' How much of that goes onto the dilex and how much gets spend in the c-store is a different matter. But there is 'free' zen coming into the game.
(how 'free' this Zen is can be debated based on how a lifer values the various benefits of the lifetime sub cost and how long they've had it)
Well... technically you paid for some of it. Until you 'build up' enough stipend Zen to cover the initial cost of the Lifer Sub its technically all paid for. After that... its free Zen.
I would say it never becomes free zen... just the price paid for the zen goes down the longer the game lasts.
Your way around is more like people celebrating tax free day in May... claiming you have paid all their taxes now so your now working for you.
I prefer to think of it as ... 3.3 years till your zen costs what it costs everyone else. If you have a day one lifetime you paid upfront to get 12 years of zen at a 75% discount. lol (if you bought a life time account 6 years ago your only really getting your monthly zen at half off still)
3.3 years till your zen costs what it costs everyone else doesnt work for those that have been around a long time. I started playing in 2009 and we had to pay to play back then with there being no free option. The way I see it is the Lifetime subscriber was a cheaper discounted way for me to play then the monthly sub which was the other option. By the time the game was rereleased as a free game the monthly generated ZEN was free. If you work out how much it cost to play the game against how much I paid. Then the ZEN is being generated for free and I had a discount on the monthly sub cost to play the game.
To me the ZEN is not discounted, its being generated for free for no extra real money every month. Its being generated every month for no additional real money for well over 10 years so I don't see how I can view it any other way but free.
Don't allow pure free to play accounts that have refused and continue to refuse to make even a one time purchase of zen or other purchase from Cryptic with real money to use the dilithium exchange.
Allow dilithium exchange use only for STO and/or Champions life time subs, are currently paying for a legacy sub and former subs who paid real money before and those who have bought zen with real money (verified purchases) at least one time before.
To access the dilithium exchange, a free to play account would need to make at least a one time real money purchase if they have not in the past.
Except it's not entirely true. Lifetime subscribers get 500z a month for 'free.' How much of that goes onto the dilex and how much gets spend in the c-store is a different matter. But there is 'free' zen coming into the game.
(how 'free' this Zen is can be debated based on how a lifer values the various benefits of the lifetime sub cost and how long they've had it)
Well... technically you paid for some of it. Until you 'build up' enough stipend Zen to cover the initial cost of the Lifer Sub its technically all paid for. After that... its free Zen.
I would say it never becomes free zen... just the price paid for the zen goes down the longer the game lasts.
Your way around is more like people celebrating tax free day in May... claiming you have paid all their taxes now so your now working for you.
I prefer to think of it as ... 3.3 years till your zen costs what it costs everyone else. If you have a day one lifetime you paid upfront to get 12 years of zen at a 75% discount. lol (if you bought a life time account 6 years ago your only really getting your monthly zen at half off still)
That depends on how many captains you have, and how much you value the extra captain slots, ship slots, drydock slots, inventory slots, and so forth. If you 'value' them at 50% off the typical asking price for those services, adding a Lifetime to an account is worth ~4500z per captain you play. It doesn't take many captains for that to rapidly swing towards being cost neutral right out of the gate. Everything after that is just a bonus, including the monthly stipend. I mean, all those things are given to all of your captains, and a basic account can already have 9 of them. And that doesn't include the free ship (it's really just one ship with 4 different skins) or the bonus account bank slots. However, if you don't value those account/captain services, why would you buy the Lifetime sub??
That is a good point of course lifetime has other perks. I guess I tend to discount them as the majority of my toons where created back when the game had subs. So I never bought lifetime but most of my toons already have maxed inventory and the like from the sub unlocks.
Still just means that lifetime zen gets a little cheaper every month. Lifetime was probably a good deal if you got in at the birth of zen... I don't even remember how long we have had Zen Cstore currencies.
Except it's not entirely true. Lifetime subscribers get 500z a month for 'free.' How much of that goes onto the dilex and how much gets spend in the c-store is a different matter. But there is 'free' zen coming into the game.
(how 'free' this Zen is can be debated based on how a lifer values the various benefits of the lifetime sub cost and how long they've had it)
Well... technically you paid for some of it. Until you 'build up' enough stipend Zen to cover the initial cost of the Lifer Sub its technically all paid for. After that... its free Zen.
I would say it never becomes free zen... just the price paid for the zen goes down the longer the game lasts.
Your way around is more like people celebrating tax free day in May... claiming you have paid all their taxes now so your now working for you.
I prefer to think of it as ... 3.3 years till your zen costs what it costs everyone else. If you have a day one lifetime you paid upfront to get 12 years of zen at a 75% discount. lol (if you bought a life time account 6 years ago your only really getting your monthly zen at half off still)
3.3 years till your zen costs what it costs everyone else doesnt work for those that have been around a long time. I started playing in 2009 and we had to pay to play back then with there being no free option. The way I see it is the Lifetime subscriber was a cheaper discounted way for me to play then the monthly sub which was the other option. By the time the game was rereleased as a free game the monthly generated ZEN was free. If you work out how much it cost to play the game against how much I paid. Then the ZEN is being generated for free and I had a discount on the monthly sub cost to play the game.
To me the ZEN is not discounted, its being generated for free for no extra real money every month. Its being generated every month for no additional real money for well over 10 years so I don't see how I can view it any other way but free.
You aren't paying for it monthly... but you DID pay for it. You did pay for a lifetime. It may be so long ago you don't count it... and hey Cryptic has changed hands twice since so it isn't on their books either. BUT that was the sale they put on... you paid the $ for the sub, 500 STO currency a month for the life of the game was part of the package you paid for. (and it will always be impossible to value... cause who knows the game could have ended 2 months after you paid... or it could go another decade)
Cryptic doesn't get to complain that X amount of Zen is free. (and they don't) Cause it isn't true all zen was paid for... the fact you got a discount is irrelevant.
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rattler2Member, Star Trek Online ModeratorPosts: 58,584Community Moderator
Don't allow pure free to play accounts that have refused and continue to refuse to make even a one time purchase of zen or other purchase from Cryptic with real money to use the dilithium exchange.
Allow dilithium exchange use only for STO and/or Champions life time subs, are currently paying for a legacy sub and former subs who paid real money before and those who have bought zen with real money (verified purchases) at least one time before.
To access the dilithium exchange, a free to play account would need to make at least a one time real money purchase if they have not in the past.
That's borderline blackmail. And I oppose that big time. TOR had a similar system for so many things years ago and it was even worse because you didn't even have a BANK unless you gave EA $5.
The Dilithium Exchange is in many cases the only way a F2P player can even get anything. Putting it behind a paywall punishes those players. Besides the Zen on the exchange is already paid for.
Don't allow pure free to play accounts that have refused and continue to refuse to make even a one time purchase of zen or other purchase from Cryptic with real money to use the dilithium exchange.
Allow dilithium exchange use only for STO and/or Champions life time subs, are currently paying for a legacy sub and former subs who paid real money before and those who have bought zen with real money (verified purchases) at least one time before.
To access the dilithium exchange, a free to play account would need to make at least a one time real money purchase if they have not in the past.
That's borderline blackmail. And I oppose that big time. TOR had a similar system for so many things years ago and it was even worse because you didn't even have a BANK unless you gave EA $5.
The Dilithium Exchange is in many cases the only way a F2P player can even get anything. Putting it behind a paywall punishes those players. Besides the Zen on the exchange is already paid for.
That is all that matters. Yes extorting players isn't the way to go.
The idea of the exchange is simple... players with more time then funds can work for players with more money then time.
The fact that the balance is a bit off right now, is a problem Cryptic can and should solve... but it isn't a fault of the system itself. The system itself makes it one of the best F2P games in the industry. Not just cause free players can do it all for free... but in theory everyone gets to enjoy everything. Paying players always have others to do content with... there aren't paywalled zones that are dead cause the masses haven't paid up. Cryptics system solves a ton of problems that plague other MMOs.
The issue right now is simple... Cryptic has sort of ignored the in game uses of Dill for a bit too long. They have also tried to keep backsides in the seats with many big Events and Dill creation events. (I suspect they where trying to have the best $$$ years they have had cause they knew they where for sale for a good while) The bottom line is their system got a little over taxed... and we now have too much dill in the system, without enough legit uses for it. It is fairly easily fixed... if they are serious about doing that. We'll see... I mean I just noticed in game they are planning to do another Dill week. I mean back to back to back big Dill creation events while giving lip service about fixing the over supply seems odd.
Bonus dilithium weekends just need to cease to exist, period. We get so much already from events themselves as it is. I said it years ago even that bonus dil was not helping anything on top of already overly generous sources.
While I feel like saying the timing of running bonus dilithium here would seem to contradict that they are serious about fixing the exchange, I suppose they might be throwing it out as a bone to those who recently didn't get true dil from T5 anymore to soften the blow a little. But I suggest let it be the last one yes? Perhaps make a new event to take bonus dil weekends place.
Bonus dilithium weekends just need to cease to exist, period. We get so much already from events themselves as it is. I said it years ago even that bonus dil was not helping anything on top of already overly generous sources.
While I feel like saying the timing of running bonus dilithium here would seem to contradict that they are serious about fixing the exchange, I suppose they might be throwing it out as a bone to those who recently didn't get true dil from T5 anymore to soften the blow a little. But I suggest let it be the last one yes? Perhaps make a new event to take bonus dil weekends place.
Completely agreed, Dilithium Weekends are all downside.. no one needs them, and at this point they do nothing but make an already bad problem ever so slightly worse.
Bonus dilithium weekends just need to cease to exist, period. We get so much already from events themselves as it is. I said it years ago even that bonus dil was not helping anything on top of already overly generous sources.
While I feel like saying the timing of running bonus dilithium here would seem to contradict that they are serious about fixing the exchange, I suppose they might be throwing it out as a bone to those who recently didn't get true dil from T5 anymore to soften the blow a little. But I suggest let it be the last one yes? Perhaps make a new event to take bonus dil weekends place.
I find myself agreeing. They could do a 'dilithium store' weekend where some specialty items get added to the dilithium store for the weekend. New items -- or variants of existing items -- not available by any other means, with big dilithium price tags. Like how endothermic kit module is a cold variant of exothermic's fire damage -- make one that does shock damage, radiation damage, and so forth. Variants of quest/event set items -- a nanopulse staff rifle variant for the imperial assault nanopulse dual pistols, or a dual-mek'leth variant of that set's bat'leth. Or an antiproton variant of Morphogenic Armaments.
Get 'em while you can, because you never know when -- or even if -- a particular variant will ever be available again.
This is a great idea.
Instead of a weekend where you make extra Dilithium, have weekends where Dilithium items are on sale and special items are added. Turn the focus from pouring more Dilithium into the game into getting people to spend that Dilithium. Instead of encouraging people to grind more Dilithium, encourage them to spend it. This is what you call a 'common sense approach' to solving a problem.
This is just another example of an idea that makes so much obvious sense that you just know Cryptic won't use it. Continuing to have Dilithium Weekends just serves to illustrate what we all already know.. Cryptic absolutely doesn't understand the problem.
Except it's not entirely true. Lifetime subscribers get 500z a month for 'free.' How much of that goes onto the dilex and how much gets spend in the c-store is a different matter. But there is 'free' zen coming into the game.
(how 'free' this Zen is can be debated based on how a lifer values the various benefits of the lifetime sub cost and how long they've had it)
Well... technically you paid for some of it. Until you 'build up' enough stipend Zen to cover the initial cost of the Lifer Sub its technically all paid for. After that... its free Zen.
I would say it never becomes free zen... just the price paid for the zen goes down the longer the game lasts.
Your way around is more like people celebrating tax free day in May... claiming you have paid all their taxes now so your now working for you.
I prefer to think of it as ... 3.3 years till your zen costs what it costs everyone else. If you have a day one lifetime you paid upfront to get 12 years of zen at a 75% discount. lol (if you bought a life time account 6 years ago your only really getting your monthly zen at half off still)
3.3 years till your zen costs what it costs everyone else doesnt work for those that have been around a long time. I started playing in 2009 and we had to pay to play back then with there being no free option. The way I see it is the Lifetime subscriber was a cheaper discounted way for me to play then the monthly sub which was the other option. By the time the game was rereleased as a free game the monthly generated ZEN was free. If you work out how much it cost to play the game against how much I paid. Then the ZEN is being generated for free and I had a discount on the monthly sub cost to play the game.
To me the ZEN is not discounted, its being generated for free for no extra real money every month. Its being generated every month for no additional real money for well over 10 years so I don't see how I can view it any other way but free.
You aren't paying for it monthly... but you DID pay for it. You did pay for a lifetime. It may be so long ago you don't count it... and hey Cryptic has changed hands twice since so it isn't on their books either. BUT that was the sale they put on... you paid the $ for the sub, 500 STO currency a month for the life of the game was part of the package you paid for. (and it will always be impossible to value... cause who knows the game could have ended 2 months after you paid... or it could go another decade)
Cryptic doesn't get to complain that X amount of Zen is free. (and they don't) Cause it isn't true all zen was paid for... the fact you got a discount is irrelevant.
Not everyone did pay for it and even if they did the amount of money some of us spend to get the ZEN is in the negative. As the amount of money we spent is in the negative I view the generated ZEN as free as it doesnt cost me any real money to be generated and in fact saved me money. Using streamlined incorrect numbers to demonstrate as I haven't got time to work this out accurately.
I could have paid £350 to play the game without ZEN or £250 to play the game with free generated ZEN for life. At this point the ZEN is not discounted its a free extra that is generated for no extra real life money as I am at -£100. It didn't cost me extra money to get the ZEN bonus, it saved me money.
The discount as you call it has made the ZEN cost £0 and any extra produced ZEN is at a cost of £0. So I see the ZEN as generated every month for no additional real money. The bit I disagree with is "zen at a 75% discount." for people like myself I view that as a 100% discount which equals freely generated for no extra real cost.
Plus there is the argument ZEN was not part of the package when I paid for it. ZEN got added later just like the ZEN store which wasn't the ZEN store back then. ZEN was a free bonus upgrade extra added later. Although that type of argument is not something for this thread.
The point I was trying to get across is many of us count the ZEN produced as free and treat it as freely generated extra ZEN. It doesnt cost us extra money so its free after the pay back point and many of us hit the pay back point 10 years ago.
Comments
They also a need to incentivise more players to spend some money, in order to reduce the demand for dilithium-purchased Zen. It's not just that there's too much supply of dilithium and too little to spend it on, apparently there's also too much demand for dilithium-purchased Zen.
Bring back subscriptions, add more interesting stuff in them, create other things like unique uniforms and species that can only be obtained with small sums of real money. Instead of only focussing on creating and selling hugely overpriced ship packs that only scare off people who might be willing to spend some money on a game, but not the price of multiple games on one unlock.
/Merged thread "READ ME" into thread on same subject. Please do not create duplicate posts when there is already an active post on the subject. Thank you.
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Why is it backlogged... cause its too easy to farm Dill... and there aren't enough things that would make people consider using it themselves rather then selling it to another player.
New "sinks" won't fix it completely cause too many people would prefer to have zen. Most people talking about sinks just want other people to use their darn Dill already so the exchange will be free for them to use instantly again.
Nerfing dill creation down to the ground with silly account caps also won't work... cause free players aren't going to all of a sudden turn into paying ones cause the game doesn't give them a choice. They'll just tap out.
The solutions and we all know we all know what they are...
1 choke the over supply from things that are too easy to exploit. (Ok Cryptic has already went there... no more rolling new toons and getting 500k in dill a month later), will they have to go further and look more at Admiralty or ending some events like Admiralty week, or week long red alerts ? (who knows but they may have to do all those things).
2 actually develop their game... add new gear that needs to be upgraded (not gold uni consoles on new Zen packs). Perhaps instead of giving away gold uni consoles as event rewards, start giving some blue mk 12 weapons and the like things that players will throw resources at upgrading. Add fleet holdings if need be... or just add new gear to the holdings we have. Add new reputation gear... add new mission gear. ADD new and interesting items that require resources to use to their fullest. If that fails just pop the gear mark up another tick and let the entire game burn upgrades.
Now we know they are going to add to Phoenix... and that may work out well depending what they add and how. Point is the exchange isn't so far gone it can't be back to a healthy instant conversion OR a few day wait anyway which is perfectly acceptable. Its not doom time.
As for the concerns about the EC market.... well again give people things to burn resources on and the exchange gets flowing. Right now there is so little for the long time players to do... they are hording and sitting on things rather then engaging in Exchange PvP. Most are of the feeling what is the point. IMO anyway. Develop the actual game a little and the spice will flow.
Fair. Just saying for events why give away things that can't be upgraded. Give away gear that can be upgraded.
They clearly have created enough incentive for those who want to spend money as remember - ALL ZEN (including the Zen traded on the Dil Exchange) was purchased with real money by someone. yes, the person putting Dill up on the Exchange to get Zen is not paying for said Zen with real money; but the person who put the Zen up to get refined Dil did.
So, yeah, the fact is - Cryptic needs some more things players want that cost refined Dil (IE more Dil sinks that offer things players will actually want to have refined Dil on hand for.)
There is no actual "Free Zen" in STO. All Zen availabe in the game has been paid for by someone with real money at some point.
PWE ARC Drone says: "Your STO forum community as you have known it is ended...Display names are irrelevant...Any further sense of community is irrelevant...Resistance is futile...You will be assimilated..."
The parts I have bolded in the quote above apparently need to be repeated over and over and over and over, because many of the people posting in this overly long thread clearly do not understand this.
This kind of comment is so extremely tiring. We're not children, and you aren't the only adult in the room. We know the actual mechanics of exchange itself aren't technically "broken". It's the system (supply & demand, or lack thereof) that is "broken". Drop the "I know some don't want to hear this" nonsense. This discussion has absolutely nothing to do with anyone "not wanting to hear" anything.
The-Grand-Nagus
Join Date: Sep 2008
Of course many folks such as yourself understand the game needs to change in a few ways for the system to operate as most expect it too.
However in this thread I was responding to people suggesting over the top fixes like 16,000 account dil refine limits. Also there are 9 pages of people QQing about Cryptic fixing the T5 dill exploit. (ok ok ya its not an exploit... it was just super exploitable)
Well... technically you paid for some of it. Until you 'build up' enough stipend Zen to cover the initial cost of the Lifer Sub its technically all paid for. After that... its free Zen.
I would say it never becomes free zen... just the price paid for the zen goes down the longer the game lasts.
Your way around is more like people celebrating tax free day in May... claiming you have paid all their taxes now so your now working for you.
I prefer to think of it as ... 3.3 years till your zen costs what it costs everyone else. If you have a day one lifetime you paid upfront to get 12 years of zen at a 75% discount. lol (if you bought a life time account 6 years ago your only really getting your monthly zen at half off still)
To me the ZEN is not discounted, its being generated for free for no extra real money every month. Its being generated every month for no additional real money for well over 10 years so I don't see how I can view it any other way but free.
Don't allow pure free to play accounts that have refused and continue to refuse to make even a one time purchase of zen or other purchase from Cryptic with real money to use the dilithium exchange.
Allow dilithium exchange use only for STO and/or Champions life time subs, are currently paying for a legacy sub and former subs who paid real money before and those who have bought zen with real money (verified purchases) at least one time before.
To access the dilithium exchange, a free to play account would need to make at least a one time real money purchase if they have not in the past.
That is a good point of course lifetime has other perks. I guess I tend to discount them as the majority of my toons where created back when the game had subs. So I never bought lifetime but most of my toons already have maxed inventory and the like from the sub unlocks.
Still just means that lifetime zen gets a little cheaper every month. Lifetime was probably a good deal if you got in at the birth of zen... I don't even remember how long we have had Zen Cstore currencies.
You aren't paying for it monthly... but you DID pay for it. You did pay for a lifetime. It may be so long ago you don't count it... and hey Cryptic has changed hands twice since so it isn't on their books either. BUT that was the sale they put on... you paid the $ for the sub, 500 STO currency a month for the life of the game was part of the package you paid for. (and it will always be impossible to value... cause who knows the game could have ended 2 months after you paid... or it could go another decade)
Cryptic doesn't get to complain that X amount of Zen is free. (and they don't) Cause it isn't true all zen was paid for... the fact you got a discount is irrelevant.
That's borderline blackmail. And I oppose that big time. TOR had a similar system for so many things years ago and it was even worse because you didn't even have a BANK unless you gave EA $5.
The Dilithium Exchange is in many cases the only way a F2P player can even get anything. Putting it behind a paywall punishes those players. Besides the Zen on the exchange is already paid for.
That is all that matters. Yes extorting players isn't the way to go.
The idea of the exchange is simple... players with more time then funds can work for players with more money then time.
The fact that the balance is a bit off right now, is a problem Cryptic can and should solve... but it isn't a fault of the system itself. The system itself makes it one of the best F2P games in the industry. Not just cause free players can do it all for free... but in theory everyone gets to enjoy everything. Paying players always have others to do content with... there aren't paywalled zones that are dead cause the masses haven't paid up. Cryptics system solves a ton of problems that plague other MMOs.
The issue right now is simple... Cryptic has sort of ignored the in game uses of Dill for a bit too long. They have also tried to keep backsides in the seats with many big Events and Dill creation events. (I suspect they where trying to have the best $$$ years they have had cause they knew they where for sale for a good while) The bottom line is their system got a little over taxed... and we now have too much dill in the system, without enough legit uses for it. It is fairly easily fixed... if they are serious about doing that. We'll see... I mean I just noticed in game they are planning to do another Dill week. I mean back to back to back big Dill creation events while giving lip service about fixing the over supply seems odd.
While I feel like saying the timing of running bonus dilithium here would seem to contradict that they are serious about fixing the exchange, I suppose they might be throwing it out as a bone to those who recently didn't get true dil from T5 anymore to soften the blow a little. But I suggest let it be the last one yes? Perhaps make a new event to take bonus dil weekends place.
Completely agreed, Dilithium Weekends are all downside.. no one needs them, and at this point they do nothing but make an already bad problem ever so slightly worse.
This is a great idea.
Instead of a weekend where you make extra Dilithium, have weekends where Dilithium items are on sale and special items are added. Turn the focus from pouring more Dilithium into the game into getting people to spend that Dilithium. Instead of encouraging people to grind more Dilithium, encourage them to spend it. This is what you call a 'common sense approach' to solving a problem.
This is just another example of an idea that makes so much obvious sense that you just know Cryptic won't use it. Continuing to have Dilithium Weekends just serves to illustrate what we all already know.. Cryptic absolutely doesn't understand the problem.
I could have paid £350 to play the game without ZEN or £250 to play the game with free generated ZEN for life. At this point the ZEN is not discounted its a free extra that is generated for no extra real life money as I am at -£100. It didn't cost me extra money to get the ZEN bonus, it saved me money.
The discount as you call it has made the ZEN cost £0 and any extra produced ZEN is at a cost of £0. So I see the ZEN as generated every month for no additional real money. The bit I disagree with is "zen at a 75% discount." for people like myself I view that as a 100% discount which equals freely generated for no extra real cost.
Plus there is the argument ZEN was not part of the package when I paid for it. ZEN got added later just like the ZEN store which wasn't the ZEN store back then. ZEN was a free bonus upgrade extra added later. Although that type of argument is not something for this thread.
The point I was trying to get across is many of us count the ZEN produced as free and treat it as freely generated extra ZEN. It doesnt cost us extra money so its free after the pay back point and many of us hit the pay back point 10 years ago.