Let me repeat that: not thwarting some idiot AI of Section 31's they ripped off from an even worse David Mack novel, but thwarting the very concept of Section 31 itself, and offering mercy and friendship to a mortal enemy instead of death and intrigue.
And now see that a good bunch of Star Trek fans prefer this villian over the actual UFP for various reasons. Good times
^ Memory Alpha.org is not canon. It's a open wiki with arbitrary rules. Only what can be cited from an episode is. ^
"No. Men do not roar. Women roar. Then they hurl heavy objects... and claw at you." -Worf, son of Mogh
"A filthy, mangy beast, but in its bony breast beat the heart of a warrior" - "faithful" (...) "but ever-ready to follow the call of the wild." - Martok, about a Targ
"That pig smelled horrid. A sweet-sour, extremely pungent odor. I showered and showered, and it took me a week to get rid of it!" - Robert Justman, appreciating Emmy-Lou
Since it's been said the series will be episodic, I shall be hopeful for a Strange New Worlds episode, written to introduce us to Caitians. Purrr-haps in an early season. With the final season having M'Ress join the crew as an Ensign.
(/\) Exploring Star Trek Online Since July 2008 (/\)
> @psiameese said: > Since it's been said the series will be episodic, I shall be hopeful for a Strange New Worlds episode, written to introduce us to Caitians. Purrr-haps in an early season. With the final season having M'Ress join the crew as an Ensign.
I think you have a better chance waiting for Lower Decks to give a bit of depth to the Caitians. In a live-action show it's a huge effort to make cat people look halfway decent/believable. You either have animatronics or CGI and both would look kinda weird.
I don't know if they could pull off cat make-up and traditional masks that wouldn't be horrible...
^ Memory Alpha.org is not canon. It's a open wiki with arbitrary rules. Only what can be cited from an episode is. ^
"No. Men do not roar. Women roar. Then they hurl heavy objects... and claw at you." -Worf, son of Mogh
"A filthy, mangy beast, but in its bony breast beat the heart of a warrior" - "faithful" (...) "but ever-ready to follow the call of the wild." - Martok, about a Targ
"That pig smelled horrid. A sweet-sour, extremely pungent odor. I showered and showered, and it took me a week to get rid of it!" - Robert Justman, appreciating Emmy-Lou
II don't know about that. I think live-action Trek could do the Caitian justice by this point in television production. Doctor Who had the Catkind in a 2006 episode. Over ten years ago. The actors made them quite convincing. Give them a mane and boots like those worn today by Discovery's Saru? Granted not everyone is as malleable as Doug Jones.
Edited to add that I wouldn't want to bother if all a Trek production wanted to do was follow the CGI lead we saw in the Cats movie... /shudders to think
(/\) Exploring Star Trek Online Since July 2008 (/\)
A normie goes "Oh, what's this?"
An otaku goes "UwU, what's this?"
A furry goes "OwO, what's this?"
A werewolf goes "Awoo, what's this?"
"It's nothing personal, I just don't feel like I've gotten to know a person until I've sniffed their crotch." "We said 'no' to Mr. Curiosity. We're not home. Curiosity is not welcome, it is not to be invited in. Curiosity...is bad. It gets you in trouble, it gets you killed, and more importantly...it makes you poor!"
Passion and Serenity are one.
I gain power by understanding both.
In the chaos of their battle, I bring order.
I am a shadow, darkness born from light.
The Force is united within me.
II don't know about that. I think live-action Trek could do the Caitian justice by this point in television production. Doctor Who had the Catkind in a 2006 episode. Over ten years ago. The actors made them quite convincing. Give them a mane and boots like those worn today by Discovery's Saru? Granted not everyone is as malleable as Doug Jones.
Edited to add that I wouldn't want to bother if all a Trek production wanted to do was follow the CGI lead we saw in the Cats movie... /shudders to think
If their studio is equipped for it they may be able to do something like the Avatar CGI setup, but those are not exactly common. It might work out visually though probably too expensive for anything but a recurring character instead of a main cast one. More likely would be physical rubber and fur if they did it, like something from Face Off, since DSC does not have the huge budget they had in the first season to work with (which was the main reason they got rid of Airiam, the makeup was too expensive for a regular).
The problem with ship interiors is that most players don't care, and thus, won't buy them, or use them.
Cryptic can spend all the time in the world making a 100% accurate ship interior for the Donnie, wont change that most players don't care, don't want to care, and thus, it isn't cost effective to make.
I disagree!
Personally, having a ship interior that has all of the features that might bring you back to Spacedock is both fun and convenient, but devs not designing them or incorporating those aspects in the first place is a good way to make players not care. Heck, my Ferengi vessels even have a Dabo table for earning those occasional latinum endeavor points without having to dash to Drozana, DS9 or Nimbus.
The problem with ship interiors is that most players don't care, and thus, won't buy them, or use them.
Cryptic can spend all the time in the world making a 100% accurate ship interior for the Donnie, wont change that most players don't care, don't want to care, and thus, it isn't cost effective to make.
I disagree!
Personally, having a ship interior that has all of the features that might bring you back to Spacedock is both fun and convenient, but devs not designing them or incorporating those aspects in the first place is a good way to make players not care. Heck, my Ferengi vessels even have a Dabo table for earning those occasional latinum endeavor points without having to dash to Drozana, DS9 or Nimbus.
Yeah, while it's true players (in general) don't care about interiors, it's *because* they were not designed to matter. So...of course people don't care about them. If, for example, you could ONLY do doff missions from the specific doff contact in the specific part of your ship where that contact was located, well then that would actually give people a reason to go (if they cared about doff missions). No, I'm not suggesting they do that now (it's way too late and people would hate it). But if that is how the system had originally been introduced it would have actually given interiors a purpose and made people care more about what they looked like and want to buy the one they liked the best. Maybe toss in a holodeck combat training daily or something and you really would have had something.
But all of that is hindsight and not something that is going to change now.
I liked Anson Mount as Pike and Rebecca Romijin as Number One. Ethan Peck was ok as Spock. Can't say I'm all that excited for this though. I really did not care for Picard, and if Season 3 of Discovery is a stinker, that will be it for me. Kudos to those looking forward to this new show. Hope they enjoy it.
I wrote off Discovery as a stinker very shortly after they killed off Captain Georgio, revealed that Lorca was a Mirror Universe infiltrator and had Burnham "magically" forgiven for being a mutineer that inadvertently started a war that got her mentor/captain killed. I mean why watch that much of a hot mess?
Anson Mount as Pike made up for almost all of that earlier TRIBBLE, but while I liked her as Number One; Rebecca Romijin didn't have much of a spotlight to show off what she could bring to the role. With her, I'm hopeful. Peck on the other hand was not actually playing Spock, so he made no positive impression on me. What they did with him was a throwback to the ridiculous ideas of the first season. Honestly, as much as I don't mind anyone else enjoying Discovery, I hope that three seasons and done is it for them, as I would rather see more genuine Star Trek roll out with Strange New Worlds.
Picard was a bit of an experiment, so who knows how that series will resonate ongoing? I liked things about it, and thought that the decision to follow him post-career was intriguing; however time will tell!
Right now the biggest danger for oversaturation is the still unhealed split in the fanbase. The oldest most loyal fans are either already alienated (over the compatibility issues between CBS Trek and the older ones) or are getting fed up with the shallow action movie style format CBS seems to be stuck on lately.
If they can do something to heal the breach and bring back the people who stuck to Star Trek for a long time but left over DSC there would not be an oversaturation point for the most part since they never get enough good Trek.
Of course there is also the Hollywood-speak usage of the term "over saturation" that really means that the writers ran out of ideas and they want to shut down the show before they end up embarrassing themselves with their own "Great Vegetable Rebellion".
^^^
The Star Trek fanbase HAS NEVER been united - it's always been split even when TOS was all we had. There was those that wanted the entire third season of TOS (except for a few select episodes like "The Enterprise Incident", "The Tholian Web" and "Day of the Dove" de-canonized. (It was often referred to as "The TRIBBLE Season, and Fred Freiberger was the Trek Anti-Christ.)
Then came 1973 and The Animated Series. <--- That's when you really saw the first the instances of Trek fandom crying - "NOT TREK! - It's not a %$#@! kiddie cartoon!!!111...." and "Man! Shatner and Co. must be really hard up for money!..."
Then came ST:TMP - a $40 million dollar remake of essentially TOS S2 - "The Changeling" - what did fans think?
- OMG when did Star Fleet trade their uniforms in for Pajamas?
- Why have the Federation put Klingon style Warp Drive Nacelles on the Enterprise?
- TWO Turbolifts on the Bridge!!! (no not kidding many fans were outraged) - NOT MY TREK!
- WTF? Those aren't Klingons...they look like my dog!
And lol, don't get me started on the first three seasons on TNG and what the Trek fanbase thought of them. And if you think - "Oh, it was loved from the start as GR was back in control..." Yeah no. The majority of Star trek fans back then considered it hot garbage (in L.A. new TNG episodes were sandwiched between a TOS episode before and a TOS episode after, in an effort to boost ratings, keep the 'old' fans watching - and it wasn't until TNG's S3 - "Yesterday's Enterprise" and then "Best of Both Worlds" (which BTW GR said "No" to making; but then because he was hospitalized, the writing/production staff (who were all planning on NOT renewing their contracts for S4 - said, "let's do it, and go out (IE off the show) with a bang..."
So, yeah, please spare me with all the "This new Trek really fractures the fanbase!" garbage as new Trek has been fracturing the fanbase since 1973. And the TOS fanbase was split on S3. It's nothing new to Paramount/CBS and they have 47 years of marketing evidence to show that - "Yeah, they complain, but they still watch and BUY; and new fans come along, and eventually, it's all accepted into the 'Star Trek' fold...rinse, repeat...
Formerly known as Armsman from June 2008 to June 20, 2012 PWE ARC Drone says: "Your STO forum community as you have known it is ended...Display names are irrelevant...Any further sense of community is irrelevant...Resistance is futile...You will be assimilated..."
So far CBS Trek has set a very low bar so if they actually pull off a serious drama-action show with a real Trek feel to it instead of silly action-melodrama with a generic feel shading more towards Star Wars than Star Trek it will be a very pleasant surprise. Both Mount and Romjin are good so at least they have that going for the series anyway.
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rattler2Member, Star Trek Online ModeratorPosts: 58,667Community Moderator
Here's the problem some might not be thinking about. When was the last time we had a major Sci-Fi series on TV? I mean one that everyone would talk about?
Most likely either The Expanse, The Orville, and Battlestar Galactica. With Stargate: Universe close behind, but mostly overshadowed by SG-1 and Atlantis.
Out of those main three... one wasn't serious. The other two were serious, and one even got pretty dark at times. And like it or not, Battlestar Galactica was successful. It got dark and gritty, but was successful.
Star Trek has gotten dark at times too, just look at some of the stuff from Deep Space Nine. Attempted Genocide of a species, assassinating a Romulan Senator and pinning it on the enemy... war...
Star Trek has covered these darker elements in the past. If we look at the newer shows, we're seeing a wide range being used. Some dark and gritty, some over the top humor, and with SNW we may be looking at an attempt to bring back the old TOS/TNG formula.
They're trying to reach out to all kinds of people. Sure it may be a bit of a shotgun approach, but the fact remains that they are trying. And Anson Mount was praised for his role as Pike in Discovery s2, and people wanted a show about Pike and the Enterprise. Now we're getting it. And in a way... there will be a Trek for everyone. The more traditional fans may like SNW better, while others may prefer Lower Decks or Discovery. But... there is room for ALL. And that, I believe, is the point.
I can't take it anymore! Could everyone just chill out for two seconds before something CRAZY happens again?!
The nut who actually ground out many packs. The resident forum voice of reason (I HAZ FORUM REP! YAY!)
normal text = me speaking as fellow formite colored text = mod mode
> @angrytarg said: > > @psiameese said: > > Since it's been said the series will be episodic, I shall be hopeful for a Strange New Worlds episode, written to introduce us to Caitians. Purrr-haps in an early season. With the final season having M'Ress join the crew as an Ensign. > > I think you have a better chance waiting for Lower Decks to give a bit of depth to the Caitians. In a live-action show it's a huge effort to make cat people look halfway decent/believable. You either have animatronics or CGI and both would look kinda weird. > > I don't know if they could pull off cat make-up and traditional masks that wouldn't be horrible... > >
I think the people that made Saurians look good could pull off a good looking Caitian
Your pain runs deep.
Let us explore it... together. Each man hides a secret pain. It must be exposed and reckoned with. It must be dragged from the darkness and forced into the light. Share your pain. Share your pain with me... and gain strength from the sharing.
A normie goes "Oh, what's this?"
An otaku goes "UwU, what's this?"
A furry goes "OwO, what's this?"
A werewolf goes "Awoo, what's this?"
"It's nothing personal, I just don't feel like I've gotten to know a person until I've sniffed their crotch." "We said 'no' to Mr. Curiosity. We're not home. Curiosity is not welcome, it is not to be invited in. Curiosity...is bad. It gets you in trouble, it gets you killed, and more importantly...it makes you poor!"
Passion and Serenity are one.
I gain power by understanding both.
In the chaos of their battle, I bring order.
I am a shadow, darkness born from light.
The Force is united within me.
^ Memory Alpha.org is not canon. It's a open wiki with arbitrary rules. Only what can be cited from an episode is. ^
"No. Men do not roar. Women roar. Then they hurl heavy objects... and claw at you." -Worf, son of Mogh
"A filthy, mangy beast, but in its bony breast beat the heart of a warrior" - "faithful" (...) "but ever-ready to follow the call of the wild." - Martok, about a Targ
"That pig smelled horrid. A sweet-sour, extremely pungent odor. I showered and showered, and it took me a week to get rid of it!" - Robert Justman, appreciating Emmy-Lou
Indubitably - or at least an animal enthusiast...and it can't just be any random one either - if you're trying to make a decent animal person of a specific species (Like pig people, for example), you don't go with someone whose expertise lies with canines or felines, but doesn't do well with porcines.
You could also go with general artistic experts who can also do animal people too, but then you may get something like the Kilrathi from the Wing Commander movie or...Cats.
A normie goes "Oh, what's this?"
An otaku goes "UwU, what's this?"
A furry goes "OwO, what's this?"
A werewolf goes "Awoo, what's this?"
"It's nothing personal, I just don't feel like I've gotten to know a person until I've sniffed their crotch." "We said 'no' to Mr. Curiosity. We're not home. Curiosity is not welcome, it is not to be invited in. Curiosity...is bad. It gets you in trouble, it gets you killed, and more importantly...it makes you poor!"
Passion and Serenity are one.
I gain power by understanding both.
In the chaos of their battle, I bring order.
I am a shadow, darkness born from light.
The Force is united within me.
With furries, as long as you made it plain that what you're after isn't just an anthro cat but an alien species that makes sense in its own right, you're probably on the right track. I've seen some really amazing work on wearable animatronics in those costumes, and they're usually designed to be worn in convention halls for hours at a time.
A normie goes "Oh, what's this?"
An otaku goes "UwU, what's this?"
A furry goes "OwO, what's this?"
A werewolf goes "Awoo, what's this?"
"It's nothing personal, I just don't feel like I've gotten to know a person until I've sniffed their crotch." "We said 'no' to Mr. Curiosity. We're not home. Curiosity is not welcome, it is not to be invited in. Curiosity...is bad. It gets you in trouble, it gets you killed, and more importantly...it makes you poor!"
Passion and Serenity are one.
I gain power by understanding both.
In the chaos of their battle, I bring order.
I am a shadow, darkness born from light.
The Force is united within me.
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rattler2Member, Star Trek Online ModeratorPosts: 58,667Community Moderator
Basically yes. However there's a big difference between the Caitians and the Kilrathi. Its just like the difference between say a cheetah and a lion. Yes they're both cats, but they are also quite different from each other in terms of build, strengths, and weaknesses. The Kilrathi are large, built for power... basically they're lions (Despite Hobbes looking more Tiger like in WC2). Compare that to the Caitians, who are typcially more in line with humans in stature, built more for speed, and don't look quite as predatory. And that's just comparing them physically. We could go into cultural differences as well, which would probably be lightyears apart from each other.
IMO one place to see all kinds of animal type aliens is actually the Star Fox franchise. They got everything.
I can't take it anymore! Could everyone just chill out for two seconds before something CRAZY happens again?!
The nut who actually ground out many packs. The resident forum voice of reason (I HAZ FORUM REP! YAY!)
normal text = me speaking as fellow formite colored text = mod mode
It has been suggested that the ancestor species of the Caitians were cats who went arboreal for a while before coming back down out of the trees, thus developing the humanlike body and hands. Its not canon since the idea originated in the fan community and has not been said onscreen, but it does make sense in a scientific context.
It has been suggested that the ancestor species of the Caitians were cats who went arboreal for a while before coming back down out of the trees, thus developing the humanlike body and hands. Its not canon since the idea originated in the fan community and has not been said onscreen, but it does make sense in a scientific context.
On the other paw, it's also been said that Caitians exist because of rights issues regarding kzinti. And kzinti, while often regarded as "warrior cats", only resemble cats coincidentally. Their ancestors were plains hunters, hence why watching Louis Wu climb atop a disabled floater held in a magnetic trap was so very disturbing to Speaker-To-Animals. The internal structure is also quite different - for instance, the rib-equivalent is a lattice structure, rather than our own ladder-like skeleton.
Speaking for myself, I'd love to see a felinesque alien species that isn't just "kitties that stand upright". Something that's kind of like a cat, but isn't a cat. (Then again, I also wanted more than just a throwaway line in one STO episode about the dietary requirements of various species - it would have made the perfect explanation for why the diplomatic luncheon in TOS:"Journey To Babel" featured colored cubes for food. Kind of like the fan idea that sugar is an intoxicant to Vulcans.)
Where did that even come from? Neither the Vulcan nor the Sugar articles on MA make one single mention of Sugar being an intoxicant to Vulcans - not even as a single throwaway line, a deleted line or BtS info.
A normie goes "Oh, what's this?"
An otaku goes "UwU, what's this?"
A furry goes "OwO, what's this?"
A werewolf goes "Awoo, what's this?"
"It's nothing personal, I just don't feel like I've gotten to know a person until I've sniffed their crotch." "We said 'no' to Mr. Curiosity. We're not home. Curiosity is not welcome, it is not to be invited in. Curiosity...is bad. It gets you in trouble, it gets you killed, and more importantly...it makes you poor!"
Passion and Serenity are one.
I gain power by understanding both.
In the chaos of their battle, I bring order.
I am a shadow, darkness born from light.
The Force is united within me.
It has been suggested that the ancestor species of the Caitians were cats who went arboreal for a while before coming back down out of the trees, thus developing the humanlike body and hands. Its not canon since the idea originated in the fan community and has not been said onscreen, but it does make sense in a scientific context.
On the other paw, it's also been said that Caitians exist because of rights issues regarding kzinti. And kzinti, while often regarded as "warrior cats", only resemble cats coincidentally. Their ancestors were plains hunters, hence why watching Louis Wu climb atop a disabled floater held in a magnetic trap was so very disturbing to Speaker-To-Animals. The internal structure is also quite different - for instance, the rib-equivalent is a lattice structure, rather than our own ladder-like skeleton.
Speaking for myself, I'd love to see a felinesque alien species that isn't just "kitties that stand upright". Something that's kind of like a cat, but isn't a cat. (Then again, I also wanted more than just a throwaway line in one STO episode about the dietary requirements of various species - it would have made the perfect explanation for why the diplomatic luncheon in TOS:"Journey To Babel" featured colored cubes for food. Kind of like the fan idea that sugar is an intoxicant to Vulcans.)
The "cats but not cats" sounds a bit like Anne McCaffrey's more or less catlike Hrrubans, while they could walk on two legs they usually stayed on four unless they were carrying something in their paw-hands so the Terran colonial authority missed the fact that Doona was already inhabited since they were not looking for four-legged intelligent species. I agree that a race like that for STO would be rather interesting.
Where did that even come from? Neither the Vulcan nor the Sugar articles on MA make one single mention of Sugar being an intoxicant to Vulcans - not even as a single throwaway line, a deleted line or BtS info.
That was from one of the third party novels actually, and the author apparently didn't see Spock eating fruit in one episode.
If I remember correctly it also had a mildly amusing scene with a human-looking but alien (I forget the name of that race) crewman who was drinking alcohol on duty, but was doing so because it acted as a mild stimulant (like coffee for a human) to them. Something odd happened (I forget what) and he wondered for a second if someone had spiked his alcohol with orange juice because ascorbic acid was a mild hallucinogen to that race.
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rattler2Member, Star Trek Online ModeratorPosts: 58,667Community Moderator
I remember there was something in the novelization of Star Trek 4, regarding mints and Spock. Don't remember the details though.
I can't take it anymore! Could everyone just chill out for two seconds before something CRAZY happens again?!
The nut who actually ground out many packs. The resident forum voice of reason (I HAZ FORUM REP! YAY!)
normal text = me speaking as fellow formite colored text = mod mode
I liked Anson Mount as Pike and Rebecca Romijin as Number One. Ethan Peck was ok as Spock. Can't say I'm all that excited for this though. I really did not care for Picard, and if Season 3 of Discovery is a stinker, that will be it for me. Kudos to those looking forward to this new show. Hope they enjoy it.
I wrote off Discovery as a stinker very shortly after they killed off Captain Georgio, revealed that Lorca was a Mirror Universe infiltrator and had Burnham "magically" forgiven for being a mutineer that inadvertently started a war that got her mentor/captain killed. I mean why watch that much of a hot mess?
Anson Mount as Pike made up for almost all of that earlier TRIBBLE, but while I liked her as Number One; Rebecca Romijin didn't have much of a spotlight to show off what she could bring to the role. With her, I'm hopeful. Peck on the other hand was not actually playing Spock, so he made no positive impression on me. What they did with him was a throwback to the ridiculous ideas of the first season. Honestly, as much as I don't mind anyone else enjoying Discovery, I hope that three seasons and done is it for them, as I would rather see more genuine Star Trek roll out with Strange New Worlds.
Picard was a bit of an experiment, so who knows how that series will resonate ongoing? I liked things about it, and thought that the decision to follow him post-career was intriguing; however time will tell!
To me Picard is closer to a write-off, I found it hard to be interested in it as early as a third of the way into the pilot.
Discovery is actually good as long as you don't hold it to traditional Trek standards and watch it as the looser space opera style that most of today's sci-fi series are made in, (it is more like Disney-made Star Wars, Dark Matter, Killjoys, or Pandora), or expect a lot of continuity with anything outside of the Kelvin stuff. If you watch it taking Kroger's advice to Stratton in Animal House when the gaffs come up it is definitely watchable:
or expect a lot of continuity with anything outside of the Kelvin stuff.
Ironic given that it has no continuity with the Kelvin stuff, but a lot of continuity with the mainline Trek shows in the timeline its part of.
One of the things I liked most about Discovery was its use of continuity, especially the very obscure aspects of Klingon culture that other Trek's forget about, as well as the inclusion of various aspects that the people working on TOS always wanted/believed were there, but couldn't do due to budget/effect limitations.
Hopefully SNW has better writers and showrunners that listen to them and the science advisors unlike DSC, but I am not expecting it.
Hopefully they don't do this because Star Trek has never been hard scifi(hell TOS was easily the most egregious with poor science), and fandom is inherently illogical, and irrational, and most fans of things don't actually understand what they are fans of, they understand the thing as they imagine it.
If in your view DSC succeeds in meeting traditional Trek standards then that is good for you, but not everyone looks for the same things in a series. For instance it exceeds TOS by quite a wide margin in eye candy, action, and production values, but falls quite short on the drama and an number of other plot, dialog and other areas. Traditional Trek relied on drama whereas DSC relies on melodrama and the two are not as interchangeable as some think.
Also DSC may not have official continuity with the Kelvin stuff but they use a great many of its conventions like the JJwindows and a lot of the style and scripting cues. And that is not surprising since Moonves actually wanted to do Kelvin rather than traditional since it was still on a popular high (the third movie had not yet been a box office disappointment when the foundational decisions for DSC were made in 2015) so in a lot of ways they skirted it as close as possible without risking a lawsuit.
In many ways DSC breaks continuity, like their complete inability to engage in combat in warp, something that they started doing in the latter part of ENT and was the standard in TOS but is strangely impossible in DSC at the time (or slightly after) Kirk was learning those same warp combat techniques at the academy. Also DSC is a jarring whiplash aesthetically, a totally different aesthetic bookended by the aesthetic shared by TOS and The Cage.
If by "obscure aspects of Klingon culture" you are equating the death vigil and howling with a reverence for the bodies of honored dead like in DSC, those cultures are definately different. In TNG, after the vigil (which according to dialog is a symbolic guarding of the deceased to give them time to get to Sto-vo-kor) the body is then considered trash, an empty husk without value.
On the other hand, it is refreshingly realistic that there would be various sects with different beliefs instead of the usual monolithic thing that is all too common in TV sci-fi, but it is still something newly created in DSC, not part of what was shown back in the 1990s.
I never claimed that traditional Star Trek was hard sci-fi, but it was not space opera like DSC either. It was SOFT sci-fi, which means that it explored the soft sciences more than the technology (though soft sci-fi usually makes at least some effort towards technological accuracy as well, which space opera like DSC often ignores). Space opera is often described as "Errol Flynnery in space" and is generally a bit of a romp (and yes, there is such a thing as a "dark" romp), a sort of rip-roaring shoot'em up that happens to be set in the future/space.
Comments
And now see that a good bunch of Star Trek fans prefer this villian over the actual UFP for various reasons. Good times
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> Since it's been said the series will be episodic, I shall be hopeful for a Strange New Worlds episode, written to introduce us to Caitians. Purrr-haps in an early season. With the final season having M'Ress join the crew as an Ensign.
I think you have a better chance waiting for Lower Decks to give a bit of depth to the Caitians. In a live-action show it's a huge effort to make cat people look halfway decent/believable. You either have animatronics or CGI and both would look kinda weird.
I don't know if they could pull off cat make-up and traditional masks that wouldn't be horrible...
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Edited to add that I wouldn't want to bother if all a Trek production wanted to do was follow the CGI lead we saw in the Cats movie... /shudders to think
#LegalizeAwoo
A normie goes "Oh, what's this?"
An otaku goes "UwU, what's this?"
A furry goes "OwO, what's this?"
A werewolf goes "Awoo, what's this?"
"It's nothing personal, I just don't feel like I've gotten to know a person until I've sniffed their crotch."
"We said 'no' to Mr. Curiosity. We're not home. Curiosity is not welcome, it is not to be invited in. Curiosity...is bad. It gets you in trouble, it gets you killed, and more importantly...it makes you poor!"
If their studio is equipped for it they may be able to do something like the Avatar CGI setup, but those are not exactly common. It might work out visually though probably too expensive for anything but a recurring character instead of a main cast one. More likely would be physical rubber and fur if they did it, like something from Face Off, since DSC does not have the huge budget they had in the first season to work with (which was the main reason they got rid of Airiam, the makeup was too expensive for a regular).
I disagree!
Personally, having a ship interior that has all of the features that might bring you back to Spacedock is both fun and convenient, but devs not designing them or incorporating those aspects in the first place is a good way to make players not care. Heck, my Ferengi vessels even have a Dabo table for earning those occasional latinum endeavor points without having to dash to Drozana, DS9 or Nimbus.
Yeah, while it's true players (in general) don't care about interiors, it's *because* they were not designed to matter. So...of course people don't care about them. If, for example, you could ONLY do doff missions from the specific doff contact in the specific part of your ship where that contact was located, well then that would actually give people a reason to go (if they cared about doff missions). No, I'm not suggesting they do that now (it's way too late and people would hate it). But if that is how the system had originally been introduced it would have actually given interiors a purpose and made people care more about what they looked like and want to buy the one they liked the best. Maybe toss in a holodeck combat training daily or something and you really would have had something.
But all of that is hindsight and not something that is going to change now.
The-Grand-Nagus
Join Date: Sep 2008
I wrote off Discovery as a stinker very shortly after they killed off Captain Georgio, revealed that Lorca was a Mirror Universe infiltrator and had Burnham "magically" forgiven for being a mutineer that inadvertently started a war that got her mentor/captain killed. I mean why watch that much of a hot mess?
Anson Mount as Pike made up for almost all of that earlier TRIBBLE, but while I liked her as Number One; Rebecca Romijin didn't have much of a spotlight to show off what she could bring to the role. With her, I'm hopeful. Peck on the other hand was not actually playing Spock, so he made no positive impression on me. What they did with him was a throwback to the ridiculous ideas of the first season. Honestly, as much as I don't mind anyone else enjoying Discovery, I hope that three seasons and done is it for them, as I would rather see more genuine Star Trek roll out with Strange New Worlds.
Picard was a bit of an experiment, so who knows how that series will resonate ongoing? I liked things about it, and thought that the decision to follow him post-career was intriguing; however time will tell!
The Star Trek fanbase HAS NEVER been united - it's always been split even when TOS was all we had. There was those that wanted the entire third season of TOS (except for a few select episodes like "The Enterprise Incident", "The Tholian Web" and "Day of the Dove" de-canonized. (It was often referred to as "The TRIBBLE Season, and Fred Freiberger was the Trek Anti-Christ.)
Then came 1973 and The Animated Series. <--- That's when you really saw the first the instances of Trek fandom crying - "NOT TREK! - It's not a %$#@! kiddie cartoon!!!111...." and "Man! Shatner and Co. must be really hard up for money!..."
Then came ST:TMP - a $40 million dollar remake of essentially TOS S2 - "The Changeling" - what did fans think?
- OMG when did Star Fleet trade their uniforms in for Pajamas?
- Why have the Federation put Klingon style Warp Drive Nacelles on the Enterprise?
- TWO Turbolifts on the Bridge!!! (no not kidding many fans were outraged) - NOT MY TREK!
- WTF? Those aren't Klingons...they look like my dog!
And lol, don't get me started on the first three seasons on TNG and what the Trek fanbase thought of them. And if you think - "Oh, it was loved from the start as GR was back in control..." Yeah no. The majority of Star trek fans back then considered it hot garbage (in L.A. new TNG episodes were sandwiched between a TOS episode before and a TOS episode after, in an effort to boost ratings, keep the 'old' fans watching - and it wasn't until TNG's S3 - "Yesterday's Enterprise" and then "Best of Both Worlds" (which BTW GR said "No" to making; but then because he was hospitalized, the writing/production staff (who were all planning on NOT renewing their contracts for S4 - said, "let's do it, and go out (IE off the show) with a bang..."
So, yeah, please spare me with all the "This new Trek really fractures the fanbase!" garbage as new Trek has been fracturing the fanbase since 1973. And the TOS fanbase was split on S3. It's nothing new to Paramount/CBS and they have 47 years of marketing evidence to show that - "Yeah, they complain, but they still watch and BUY; and new fans come along, and eventually, it's all accepted into the 'Star Trek' fold...rinse, repeat...
PWE ARC Drone says: "Your STO forum community as you have known it is ended...Display names are irrelevant...Any further sense of community is irrelevant...Resistance is futile...You will be assimilated..."
You sound pretty angry man.
The-Grand-Nagus
Join Date: Sep 2008
The-Grand-Nagus
Join Date: Sep 2008
Most likely either The Expanse, The Orville, and Battlestar Galactica. With Stargate: Universe close behind, but mostly overshadowed by SG-1 and Atlantis.
Out of those main three... one wasn't serious. The other two were serious, and one even got pretty dark at times. And like it or not, Battlestar Galactica was successful. It got dark and gritty, but was successful.
Star Trek has gotten dark at times too, just look at some of the stuff from Deep Space Nine. Attempted Genocide of a species, assassinating a Romulan Senator and pinning it on the enemy... war...
Star Trek has covered these darker elements in the past. If we look at the newer shows, we're seeing a wide range being used. Some dark and gritty, some over the top humor, and with SNW we may be looking at an attempt to bring back the old TOS/TNG formula.
They're trying to reach out to all kinds of people. Sure it may be a bit of a shotgun approach, but the fact remains that they are trying. And Anson Mount was praised for his role as Pike in Discovery s2, and people wanted a show about Pike and the Enterprise. Now we're getting it. And in a way... there will be a Trek for everyone. The more traditional fans may like SNW better, while others may prefer Lower Decks or Discovery. But... there is room for ALL. And that, I believe, is the point.
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> > @psiameese said:
> > Since it's been said the series will be episodic, I shall be hopeful for a Strange New Worlds episode, written to introduce us to Caitians. Purrr-haps in an early season. With the final season having M'Ress join the crew as an Ensign.
>
> I think you have a better chance waiting for Lower Decks to give a bit of depth to the Caitians. In a live-action show it's a huge effort to make cat people look halfway decent/believable. You either have animatronics or CGI and both would look kinda weird.
>
> I don't know if they could pull off cat make-up and traditional masks that wouldn't be horrible...
>
>
I think the people that made Saurians look good could pull off a good looking Caitian
Let us explore it... together. Each man hides a secret pain. It must be exposed and reckoned with. It must be dragged from the darkness and forced into the light. Share your pain. Share your pain with me... and gain strength from the sharing.
#LegalizeAwoo
A normie goes "Oh, what's this?"
An otaku goes "UwU, what's this?"
A furry goes "OwO, what's this?"
A werewolf goes "Awoo, what's this?"
"It's nothing personal, I just don't feel like I've gotten to know a person until I've sniffed their crotch."
"We said 'no' to Mr. Curiosity. We're not home. Curiosity is not welcome, it is not to be invited in. Curiosity...is bad. It gets you in trouble, it gets you killed, and more importantly...it makes you poor!"
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You could also go with general artistic experts who can also do animal people too, but then you may get something like the Kilrathi from the Wing Commander movie or...Cats.
#LegalizeAwoo
A normie goes "Oh, what's this?"
An otaku goes "UwU, what's this?"
A furry goes "OwO, what's this?"
A werewolf goes "Awoo, what's this?"
"It's nothing personal, I just don't feel like I've gotten to know a person until I've sniffed their crotch."
"We said 'no' to Mr. Curiosity. We're not home. Curiosity is not welcome, it is not to be invited in. Curiosity...is bad. It gets you in trouble, it gets you killed, and more importantly...it makes you poor!"
#LegalizeAwoo
A normie goes "Oh, what's this?"
An otaku goes "UwU, what's this?"
A furry goes "OwO, what's this?"
A werewolf goes "Awoo, what's this?"
"It's nothing personal, I just don't feel like I've gotten to know a person until I've sniffed their crotch."
"We said 'no' to Mr. Curiosity. We're not home. Curiosity is not welcome, it is not to be invited in. Curiosity...is bad. It gets you in trouble, it gets you killed, and more importantly...it makes you poor!"
IMO one place to see all kinds of animal type aliens is actually the Star Fox franchise. They got everything.
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Speaking for myself, I'd love to see a felinesque alien species that isn't just "kitties that stand upright". Something that's kind of like a cat, but isn't a cat. (Then again, I also wanted more than just a throwaway line in one STO episode about the dietary requirements of various species - it would have made the perfect explanation for why the diplomatic luncheon in TOS:"Journey To Babel" featured colored cubes for food. Kind of like the fan idea that sugar is an intoxicant to Vulcans.)
#LegalizeAwoo
A normie goes "Oh, what's this?"
An otaku goes "UwU, what's this?"
A furry goes "OwO, what's this?"
A werewolf goes "Awoo, what's this?"
"It's nothing personal, I just don't feel like I've gotten to know a person until I've sniffed their crotch."
"We said 'no' to Mr. Curiosity. We're not home. Curiosity is not welcome, it is not to be invited in. Curiosity...is bad. It gets you in trouble, it gets you killed, and more importantly...it makes you poor!"
The "cats but not cats" sounds a bit like Anne McCaffrey's more or less catlike Hrrubans, while they could walk on two legs they usually stayed on four unless they were carrying something in their paw-hands so the Terran colonial authority missed the fact that Doona was already inhabited since they were not looking for four-legged intelligent species. I agree that a race like that for STO would be rather interesting.
That was from one of the third party novels actually, and the author apparently didn't see Spock eating fruit in one episode.
If I remember correctly it also had a mildly amusing scene with a human-looking but alien (I forget the name of that race) crewman who was drinking alcohol on duty, but was doing so because it acted as a mild stimulant (like coffee for a human) to them. Something odd happened (I forget what) and he wondered for a second if someone had spiked his alcohol with orange juice because ascorbic acid was a mild hallucinogen to that race.
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To me Picard is closer to a write-off, I found it hard to be interested in it as early as a third of the way into the pilot.
Discovery is actually good as long as you don't hold it to traditional Trek standards and watch it as the looser space opera style that most of today's sci-fi series are made in, (it is more like Disney-made Star Wars, Dark Matter, Killjoys, or Pandora), or expect a lot of continuity with anything outside of the Kelvin stuff. If you watch it taking Kroger's advice to Stratton in Animal House when the gaffs come up it is definitely watchable:
Hopefully SNW has better writers and showrunners that listen to them and the science advisors unlike DSC, but I am not expecting it.
If in your view DSC succeeds in meeting traditional Trek standards then that is good for you, but not everyone looks for the same things in a series. For instance it exceeds TOS by quite a wide margin in eye candy, action, and production values, but falls quite short on the drama and an number of other plot, dialog and other areas. Traditional Trek relied on drama whereas DSC relies on melodrama and the two are not as interchangeable as some think.
Also DSC may not have official continuity with the Kelvin stuff but they use a great many of its conventions like the JJwindows and a lot of the style and scripting cues. And that is not surprising since Moonves actually wanted to do Kelvin rather than traditional since it was still on a popular high (the third movie had not yet been a box office disappointment when the foundational decisions for DSC were made in 2015) so in a lot of ways they skirted it as close as possible without risking a lawsuit.
In many ways DSC breaks continuity, like their complete inability to engage in combat in warp, something that they started doing in the latter part of ENT and was the standard in TOS but is strangely impossible in DSC at the time (or slightly after) Kirk was learning those same warp combat techniques at the academy. Also DSC is a jarring whiplash aesthetically, a totally different aesthetic bookended by the aesthetic shared by TOS and The Cage.
If by "obscure aspects of Klingon culture" you are equating the death vigil and howling with a reverence for the bodies of honored dead like in DSC, those cultures are definately different. In TNG, after the vigil (which according to dialog is a symbolic guarding of the deceased to give them time to get to Sto-vo-kor) the body is then considered trash, an empty husk without value.
On the other hand, it is refreshingly realistic that there would be various sects with different beliefs instead of the usual monolithic thing that is all too common in TV sci-fi, but it is still something newly created in DSC, not part of what was shown back in the 1990s.
I never claimed that traditional Star Trek was hard sci-fi, but it was not space opera like DSC either. It was SOFT sci-fi, which means that it explored the soft sciences more than the technology (though soft sci-fi usually makes at least some effort towards technological accuracy as well, which space opera like DSC often ignores). Space opera is often described as "Errol Flynnery in space" and is generally a bit of a romp (and yes, there is such a thing as a "dark" romp), a sort of rip-roaring shoot'em up that happens to be set in the future/space.