rattler2Member, Star Trek Online ModeratorPosts: 58,582Community Moderator
I think this stigma might come from the fact that in the US most animated things are aimed towards children. How can you have stories like we see in Trek when its going to get "dumbed down for children" because its animated.
While there are more adult oriented animations, those are usually looked down upon for something or other, and some people are rather against Anime for some reason.
Honestly never made sense to me. But part of it might be cultural.
I think this stigma might come from the fact that in the US most animated things are aimed towards children. How can you have stories like we see in Trek when its going to get "dumbed down for children" because its animated.
While there are more adult oriented animations, those are usually looked down upon for something or other, and some people are rather against Anime for some reason.
Honestly never made sense to me. But part of it might be cultural.
More like LACK of culture. My mother, who is in her 60's, loves anime like I do. We're both watching One Piece, currently, and it's got better writing, stories, characters and so on that anything Hollywood, or the BBC, been making for years, now.
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rattler2Member, Star Trek Online ModeratorPosts: 58,582Community Moderator
I blame politics trying to dictate whats right and wrong. But that's a subject best dropped off a cliff.
BTW I like Anime too. Watched some SAO (preferred the Gun Gale arc as there was less Kirito fangirling going on, as well as the GGO spinoff with Llenn), FATE, Gate, Magnificent Kotobuki, Girls und Panzer... need to finish Azur Lane and start Valkyria Chronicles...
I think it's because animated stuff is aimed at children in the western world indeed. Largely of course - series like the Simpsons aren't exactly known for it being a live-action series...
Having grown up with Tom & Jerry, Pokémon, Spongebob, Donald Duck and so on, the association with comics and animated tv and childhood will likely remain.
Though, besides this, it may also be because sometimes in animated series you get these over the top reactions from characters. The pointless yelling in Dragon Ball Z for example, the ridiculous faces, the unrealistic characteristics... It's something you expect children to like, not adults who are assumed to be a bit more balanced and in control of their emotions.
It was too difficult for the creators to even grasp the most basic fact about the organisation (that it was secret!).
They literally failed to understand either that core characteristic or the meaning of the very word 'secret'.
Doesn't have much to do with being vocal, toxic or the series being new or anything. Bad writing is bad writing and they deserve to be criticised for that.
I always felt Section 31 was GARBAGE from the start.
The concept was interesting. And it was carried out well in DS9. Not so much in Discovery, perhaps also not in Enterprise where they basically only served as a quick solution provider.
In DS9 there were plot twists (the one with the Romulan Senator who was working for them), actual dilemma's on whether or not to cooperate with them (regarding Odo and the disease created by S31) and so on.
Well, Phoenix, they say it's "very surprising", and your speculation wouldn't be surprising at all. On the other hand, there was once a TV series that revolved around a spy agency named CONTROL...
...it's going to be a spy spoof along the lines of Get Smart! With Kristen Stewart as Agent 99!
I always felt Section 31 was GARBAGE from the start.
^^^
Hey, I felt that way about Star trek: Voyager - still do -but hey that garbage with it's bi-polar captain who couldn't make up her mind to follow the Prime Directive or not on a weekly basis got 7 seasons.
Happy to hear "Section 31" is moving forward, and can't wait to see the series with Michelle Yeoh in the lead.
Formerly known as Armsman from June 2008 to June 20, 2012 PWE ARC Drone says: "Your STO forum community as you have known it is ended...Display names are irrelevant...Any further sense of community is irrelevant...Resistance is futile...You will be assimilated..."
I always felt Section 31 was GARBAGE from the start.
^^^
Hey, I felt that way about Star trek: Voyager - still do -but hey that garbage with it's bi-polar captain who couldn't make up her mind to follow the Prime Directive or not on a weekly basis got 7 seasons.
Happy to hear "Section 31" is moving forward, and can't wait to see the series with Michelle Yeoh in the lead.
I despise unacknowledged, black ops military organizations.
I think it's because animated stuff is aimed at children in the western world indeed. Largely of course - series like the Simpsons aren't exactly known for it being a live-action series...
Having grown up with Tom & Jerry, Pokémon, Spongebob, Donald Duck and so on, the association with comics and animated tv and childhood will likely remain.
Though, besides this, it may also be because sometimes in animated series you get these over the top reactions from characters. The pointless yelling in Dragon Ball Z for example, the ridiculous faces, the unrealistic characteristics... It's something you expect children to like, not adults who are assumed to be a bit more balanced and in control of their emotions.
Just a thought I had.
Check out one piece.....extreme body language and so on, grotesque human forms, BUT this is pretty adult stuff.
I hope the surprise is this fascist piece of edgelord TRIBBLE being cancelled.
I am pretty sure they did the "control" thing (besides a way to justify kicking DSC to the future) to create a vacuum at the top of S31 organization to get out of the obvious corner they wrote themselves into.
Fun fact: They ripped off Control from an even worse David Mack novel series where it turned out that Control was largely responsible for the Federation's formation in the first place.
By means of organizing the secret extermination of political dissidents after World War III.
Section 31's entire ethos from its inception is that the entire ethos of the Federation -- chiefly that we don't always have to be going for the throat while dealing with other countries, that we can take a risk and try friendship instead -- is bunk, that surviving in the Real World™ requires Hard Men Doing Hard Things for King and Country™.
There's a big phekk'ta difference between trying and failing to live up to one's ideals (c.f. Sisko in "In the Pale Moonlight"), and actively repudiating the concept of even having ideals. Section 31 is the latter, and it has always been the latter. I'm fine with its existence, though, as long as it's a villain deserving of no more consideration than necessary to root it out and destroy it, as it was in DS9.
"Great War! / And I cannot take more! / Great tour! / I keep on marching on / I play the great score / There will be no encore / Great War! / The War to End All Wars"
— Sabaton, "Great War"
rattler2Member, Star Trek Online ModeratorPosts: 58,582Community Moderator
The way I interpret the existance of Section 31 is as a "necessary evil". There will always be those where the Ends justify the Means. And the fact that humanity in general has drifted away from that would mean that any who hold those views would have to play it close to the chest.
A little fanfiction writing here, but maybe during the Earth-Romulan War, Section 31 saw a way to become something more than just a shadow organization living off a clause in the original Starfleet Charter. Have a real say in things. Which lead to the Section 31 we saw in Discovery, where they were portrayed more like the CIA from the Vietnam War era or something like that. Their own assets and operations, like SOG, but a legit organization within the Federation. After the Control incident, which decimated Section 31's standing assets, they had to restructure again. Something about that restructure drove them back underground to develop into the shadow organization we know in DS9. Either some kind of falling out with Starfleet Intelligence or just a total break from Starfleet in general that causes them to go rogue. Something we MAY witness in the upcoming Section 31 series.
The way I interpret the existance of Section 31 is as a "necessary evil". There will always be those where the Ends justify the Means. And the fact that humanity in general has drifted away from that would mean that any who hold those views would have to play it close to the chest.
A little fanfiction writing here, but maybe during the Earth-Romulan War, Section 31 saw a way to become something more than just a shadow organization living off a clause in the original Starfleet Charter. Have a real say in things. Which lead to the Section 31 we saw in Discovery, where they were portrayed more like the CIA from the Vietnam War era or something like that. Their own assets and operations, like SOG, but a legit organization within the Federation. After the Control incident, which decimated Section 31's standing assets, they had to restructure again. Something about that restructure drove them back underground to develop into the shadow organization we know in DS9. Either some kind of falling out with Starfleet Intelligence or just a total break from Starfleet in general that causes them to go rogue. Something we MAY witness in the upcoming Section 31 series.
I kind of doubt Kurtzman Trek can go that deep, the closest they have gotten to deep and subtle so far has been Lower Decks, and that is not particularly deep or subtle compared to a lot of other shows. For some reason Kurtzman keeps them going on the path most travelled, not the least travelled. It would be nice if they could though.
The way I interpret the existance of Section 31 is as a "necessary evil". There will always be those where the Ends justify the Means. And the fact that humanity in general has drifted away from that would mean that any who hold those views would have to play it close to the chest.
A little fanfiction writing here, but maybe during the Earth-Romulan War, Section 31 saw a way to become something more than just a shadow organization living off a clause in the original Starfleet Charter. Have a real say in things. Which lead to the Section 31 we saw in Discovery, where they were portrayed more like the CIA from the Vietnam War era or something like that. Their own assets and operations, like SOG, but a legit organization within the Federation. After the Control incident, which decimated Section 31's standing assets, they had to restructure again. Something about that restructure drove them back underground to develop into the shadow organization we know in DS9. Either some kind of falling out with Starfleet Intelligence or just a total break from Starfleet in general that causes them to go rogue. Something we MAY witness in the upcoming Section 31 series.
To me, there is no such thing as necessary evil, for evil is evil.
And Vietnam was based on a lie, according to recent declassified documents, the gulf of tonkin incident was a false flag operation. So many died, on both sides, for a LIE.
The way I interpret the existance of Section 31 is as a "necessary evil". There will always be those where the Ends justify the Means. And the fact that humanity in general has drifted away from that would mean that any who hold those views would have to play it close to the chest.
A little fanfiction writing here, but maybe during the Earth-Romulan War, Section 31 saw a way to become something more than just a shadow organization living off a clause in the original Starfleet Charter. Have a real say in things. Which lead to the Section 31 we saw in Discovery, where they were portrayed more like the CIA from the Vietnam War era or something like that. Their own assets and operations, like SOG, but a legit organization within the Federation. After the Control incident, which decimated Section 31's standing assets, they had to restructure again. Something about that restructure drove them back underground to develop into the shadow organization we know in DS9. Either some kind of falling out with Starfleet Intelligence or just a total break from Starfleet in general that causes them to go rogue. Something we MAY witness in the upcoming Section 31 series.
Necessary evil doesn't fit Star Trek, nor is it appropriate IRL. Sometimes there are bad choices and worse choices, but creating a whole organization about subverting your own ideals is a disaster waiting to happen. So many government organizations created with the best intentions become corrupted and dangerous vestiges and can endanger the entire government with their nonsense. It is one of the issues of government IRL, which you can just boil down to the old adage: power corrupts.
Trek is supposed to be about a society that moved past that, not one that goes completely backwards and deliberately creates evil organizations. I find it comical that something directly inserted into the Federation charter could ever be considered secret and not used openly (If ST:D went with the openly existing organization, I'd say its actually the most believable.) As we see in the current day, many governments find it convenient to completely suspend the rights of their people, rights that are no where permitted to be suppressed indefinitely in case of emergency, and over something with a >99% survival rate for most people, and still over 90% for the most vulnerable, while by contrast section 31 explicitly allows that for emergencies.
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rattler2Member, Star Trek Online ModeratorPosts: 58,582Community Moderator
You're assuming that Starfleet created Section 31 guys.
It didn't. They created themselves using a clause in the original Starfleet Charter.
We're also talking at least 200 years of history. In the 22nd and 24th Centuries they were the boogyman. However at one point in the 23rd they were actually a legit Black Ops organization with its own fleet, bases, and even support from the Admiralty to some degree. However the majority of the Federation was unaware of who they are. Remember when Burnham was first brought aboard Discovery, one of the guys noted the black badges, and showed confusion because he didn't recognize it. It was only in season 2 where we learn its tied to Section 31 when Georgiou reveals her connection to the organization. And Pike knowing about it probably stems from his friendship with Leeland, a Section 31 agent. But we did see them but heads over how to handle a situation, which to me shows that even then Starfleet and S31 had tension in how to get a job done.
And I think you guys are also missing something big. Its not an organziation meant to subvert the idealistic Federation or all the achievements Humanity has made. They say it themselves! They are willing to get their hands dirty FOR those ideals. They claim to do what Starfleet won't FOR the Federation.
They may not follow the ideals, but they defend them. They're basically True Believers. Even Crusaders. And that... is more dangerous than just being the "evil organization that subverts". That also allows for a level of flexability in the identity of the organization. They're not the moustache twirling villians you're claiming them to be. Section 31 is literally a rabbit hole of espionage, deception, and at times brute force that, for all intents and purposes, views itself as a guardian of the Federation.
They're not James Bond, but I wouldn't put it past them to try to be. Lincense to Kill and all.
Short version: S31 is the embodyment of "The Ends justify The Means". Not Snively Whiplash evil. And that is more dangerous.
You're assuming that Starfleet created Section 31 guys.
It didn't. They created themselves using a clause in the original Starfleet Charter.
We're also talking at least 200 years of history. In the 22nd and 24th Centuries they were the boogyman. However at one point in the 23rd they were actually a legit Black Ops organization with its own fleet, bases, and even support from the Admiralty to some degree. However the majority of the Federation was unaware of who they are. Remember when Burnham was first brought aboard Discovery, one of the guys noted the black badges, and showed confusion because he didn't recognize it. It was only in season 2 where we learn its tied to Section 31 when Georgiou reveals her connection to the organization. And Pike knowing about it probably stems from his friendship with Leeland, a Section 31 agent. But we did see them but heads over how to handle a situation, which to me shows that even then Starfleet and S31 had tension in how to get a job done.
And I think you guys are also missing something big. Its not an organziation meant to subvert the idealistic Federation or all the achievements Humanity has made. They say it themselves! They are willing to get their hands dirty FOR those ideals. They claim to do what Starfleet won't FOR the Federation.
They may not follow the ideals, but they defend them. They're basically True Believers. Even Crusaders. And that... is more dangerous than just being the "evil organization that subverts". That also allows for a level of flexability in the identity of the organization. They're not the moustache twirling villians you're claiming them to be. Section 31 is literally a rabbit hole of espionage, deception, and at times brute force that, for all intents and purposes, views itself as a guardian of the Federation.
They're not James Bond, but I wouldn't put it past them to try to be. Lincense to Kill and all.
Short version: S31 is the embodyment of "The Ends justify The Means". Not Snively Whiplash evil. And that is more dangerous.
Cause does not justify means. Section 31 tried GENOCIDE.
You're assuming that Starfleet created Section 31 guys.
It didn't. They created themselves using a clause in the original Starfleet Charter.
We're also talking at least 200 years of history. In the 22nd and 24th Centuries they were the boogyman. However at one point in the 23rd they were actually a legit Black Ops organization with its own fleet, bases, and even support from the Admiralty to some degree. However the majority of the Federation was unaware of who they are. Remember when Burnham was first brought aboard Discovery, one of the guys noted the black badges, and showed confusion because he didn't recognize it. It was only in season 2 where we learn its tied to Section 31 when Georgiou reveals her connection to the organization. And Pike knowing about it probably stems from his friendship with Leeland, a Section 31 agent. But we did see them but heads over how to handle a situation, which to me shows that even then Starfleet and S31 had tension in how to get a job done.
And I think you guys are also missing something big. Its not an organziation meant to subvert the idealistic Federation or all the achievements Humanity has made. They say it themselves! They are willing to get their hands dirty FOR those ideals. They claim to do what Starfleet won't FOR the Federation.
They may not follow the ideals, but they defend them. They're basically True Believers. Even Crusaders. And that... is more dangerous than just being the "evil organization that subverts". That also allows for a level of flexability in the identity of the organization. They're not the moustache twirling villians you're claiming them to be. Section 31 is literally a rabbit hole of espionage, deception, and at times brute force that, for all intents and purposes, views itself as a guardian of the Federation.
They're not James Bond, but I wouldn't put it past them to try to be. Lincense to Kill and all.
Short version: S31 is the embodyment of "The Ends justify The Means". Not Snively Whiplash evil. And that is more dangerous.
Section 31 is supposedly allowed under the Federation Charter. Obviously they are not proper Starfleet, in presumably the sort of way the US Congress is the legislative branch and totally separate from the President who is the executive branch. But they are explicitly created and organized by some other part of the Federation, like the CIA or FBI.
I'm not sure what you're getting at in the point about the type of evil S31 is, as I don't think anyone is making a point of that. The issue with section 31 is that by ignoring the ideals of the Federation and being the group with no oversight and no limits, they can do anything they want if they think it is justified for the good of all. This is where the greatest evils of this world tend to come from, under the guise of safety or the common good.
Section 31 is not allowed by the United Earth Starfleet charter. It is named after a part of the charter that corresponds to "emergency law" provisions in many other bodies of law: for example the emergency management laws under which US governors handle hurricanes, wildfires, and presently the COVID-19 pandemic, or the habeas corpus clause of the US Constitution (which President Lincoln activated during the Civil War to keep Maryland from seceding).
A provision that "makes allowances for bending the rules in times of extreme threat" (quoting ENT) is not the same thing as authorization to create a permanent agency that acts entirely outside the law, that explicitly considers it its job to break the rules so those silly idealists like Picard and Bashir can pretend to have their utopia (paraphrasing Sloan in "Inter Arma Enim Silent Leges", as above).
Does the Federation need spies? Yes. That's why Starfleet Intelligence exists. It doesn't need an equivalent to the Obsidian Order or Tal Shiar, i.e. what Section 31 was explicitly conceived as (per Ira Steven Behr), because—HELLO?—the Federation isn't a godsdamned totalitarian state that needs to be protected from its own people, it's a representative democracy that needs its agencies to be accountable to protect the people from the state. That's why criminal defendants get lawyers, and it's why Cabinet secretaries and other agency heads can be subpoenaed to testify before Congress. Accountability isn't an "obstacle to doing what's necessary", it's an obstacle to people deciding, for example, that subverting democracy to keep favored people in power is "necessary".
"Great War! / And I cannot take more! / Great tour! / I keep on marching on / I play the great score / There will be no encore / Great War! / The War to End All Wars"
— Sabaton, "Great War"
Hint here: The Prime Directive exists for the same reason. Ideally you'd catch imperialist wingnuts like that idiot from "Patterns of Force" with pre-enlistment psychiatric screenings, but in the case that one slips through, the prospect of serious legal trouble for acting like a conquistador might just deter them from acting on their tribbley idea.
"Great War! / And I cannot take more! / Great tour! / I keep on marching on / I play the great score / There will be no encore / Great War! / The War to End All Wars"
— Sabaton, "Great War"
Section 31 is not allowed by the United Earth Starfleet charter. It is named after a part of the charter that corresponds to "emergency law" provisions in many other bodies of law: for example the emergency management laws under which US governors handle hurricanes, wildfires, and presently the COVID-19 pandemic, or the habeas corpus clause of the US Constitution (which President Lincoln activated during the Civil War to keep Maryland from seceding).
A provision that "makes allowances for bending the rules in times of extreme threat" (quoting ENT) is not the same thing as authorization to create a permanent agency that acts entirely outside the law, that explicitly considers it its job to break the rules so those silly idealists like Picard and Bashir can pretend to have their utopia (paraphrasing Sloan in "Inter Arma Enim Silent Leges", as above).
Does the Federation need spies? Yes. That's why Starfleet Intelligence exists. It doesn't need an equivalent to the Obsidian Order or Tal Shiar, i.e. what Section 31 was explicitly conceived as (per Ira Steven Behr), because—HELLO?—the Federation isn't a godsdamned totalitarian state that needs to be protected from its own people, it's a representative democracy that needs its agencies to be accountable to protect the people from the state. That's why criminal defendants get lawyers, and it's why Cabinet secretaries and other agency heads can be subpoenaed to testify before Congress. Accountability isn't an "obstacle to doing what's necessary", it's an obstacle to people deciding, for example, that subverting democracy to keep favored people in power is "necessary".
I don't think we have an actual Starfleet charter to look at and read and discuss the legalese. S31 is clearly an officially operating agency with power within the Federation government/Starfleet, otherwise it would be stamped out.
As for emergency laws, there are no such provisions in the US Constitution. The judiciary has allowed the executive to have emergency powers that the legislatures give them with the understanding that they are very temporary in nature and narrowly defined and so forth. The lockdowns and similar stuff are being declared unconstitutional for a number of reasons, in part the neverending nature of them, as well as the unreasonableness of the measures and how broad and inconsistent they are. And that very issue is why Section 31 is so dangerous. (Lincoln was actually something of a tyrant in some of what he did, and is not a good example at all.)
The fact that leaders are willing to bend and break the rules, using emergency declarations where the emergency is questionable at best, never well defined, allowing an unending state of emergency allows for massive abuses of power, as we presently see. Anything can be called an emergency, especially with the help of poor information or disinformation, which allows them to do whatever they want without any accountability.
S31 is clearly an officially operating agency with power within the Federation government/Starfleet, otherwise it would be stamped out.
I can cite you a large number of exceptions to that here within the US, including a couple that operate on the (very small) scale implied by the treatment of S31 in DS9 and later. (If S31 is a big deal, how did all those Romulan assassins get to Earth in PIC?)
S31 in DSC is about like the operations the CIA carried out (illegally) within the US in the '50s and '60s. Except that the CIA didn't operate a self-aware, hostile computer system (as far as we know, anyway... ). And when those operations were inevitably uncovered, domestic security organizations like the FBI started clamping down on them, driving those operations underground. (They thought the operations were extinguished entirely, but after the Reagan administration we learned they'd kept their hand in - it's how they were funding some of their South American operations that had to stay off-budget in order to avoid questions.) Point is, though, that even though the CIA is an officially operating agency within the US government, what it was doing was illegal, and got shut down when it was found. Something similar seems to have happened to S31.
(My headcanon is that other than the period in DSC, S31 was about as "real" as the so-called "militias" here in the States, and manages to crop up every so often, claiming to be official, mostly because the Federation's law enforcement is incredibly lax.)
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rattler2Member, Star Trek Online ModeratorPosts: 58,582Community Moderator
Section 31 is supposedly allowed under the Federation Charter. Obviously they are not proper Starfleet, in presumably the sort of way the US Congress is the legislative branch and totally separate from the President who is the executive branch. But they are explicitly created and organized by some other part of the Federation, like the CIA or FBI.
I'm not sure what you're getting at in the point about the type of evil S31 is, as I don't think anyone is making a point of that. The issue with section 31 is that by ignoring the ideals of the Federation and being the group with no oversight and no limits, they can do anything they want if they think it is justified for the good of all. This is where the greatest evils of this world tend to come from, under the guise of safety or the common good.
That's actually what I WAS trying to say. That because they don't follow the rules to "protect" the Federation from threats, they're more dangerous than your average, obvious evil guys. Yet some people claim that they are just straight up evil like some moustache twirling villain on the simple fact that "humanity has moved on from such things" in Star Trek. Yes S31 has done evil things, like trying to genocide the Changelings in DS9, but its not evil for the sake of evil. Its evil for a good cause. The Road to Hell is paved with Good Intentions sort of evil. People who are willing to do literally ANYTHING for the Federation, even violate its highest laws. Section 31 is far more complex than some people are making them out to be.
What separates a True Believer Patriot from a Madman? A cause. And Section 31 has a cause. And they are willing to do whatever it takes, no matter how dirty, underhanded, or even outright evil, to follow said cause. And that cause, is to protect the Federation from threats.
That... is why Section 31 is far more complex, and far more dangerous. They believe in the ideals of the Federation but they don't follow them because to them, at the end of the day, ideals are all well and good, but mean nothing if you're dead. So to preserve the idealistic Federation, they take it upon themselves to do what the Federation will not. Eliminate threats by any means necessary. ANY means.
S31 is clearly an officially operating agency with power within the Federation government/Starfleet, otherwise it would be stamped out.
I can cite you a large number of exceptions to that here within the US, including a couple that operate on the (very small) scale implied by the treatment of S31 in DS9 and later. (If S31 is a big deal, how did all those Romulan assassins get to Earth in PIC?)
S31 in DSC is about like the operations the CIA carried out (illegally) within the US in the '50s and '60s. Except that the CIA didn't operate a self-aware, hostile computer system (as far as we know, anyway... ). And when those operations were inevitably uncovered, domestic security organizations like the FBI started clamping down on them, driving those operations underground. (They thought the operations were extinguished entirely, but after the Reagan administration we learned they'd kept their hand in - it's how they were funding some of their South American operations that had to stay off-budget in order to avoid questions.) Point is, though, that even though the CIA is an officially operating agency within the US government, what it was doing was illegal, and got shut down when it was found. Something similar seems to have happened to S31.
(My headcanon is that other than the period in DSC, S31 was about as "real" as the so-called "militias" here in the States, and manages to crop up every so often, claiming to be official, mostly because the Federation's law enforcement is incredibly lax.)
Well that doesn't really disagree with what I said or what I think on the matter. If S31 were illegal it would be removed. That doesn't stop a legal entity from doing illegal things, but because it is legal they are supported and they have very little oversight and can get away with doing illegal things like the CIA, at least for a while.
You're assuming that Starfleet created Section 31 guys.
It didn't. They created themselves using a clause in the original Starfleet Charter.
We're also talking at least 200 years of history. In the 22nd and 24th Centuries they were the boogyman. However at one point in the 23rd they were actually a legit Black Ops organization with its own fleet, bases, and even support from the Admiralty to some degree. However the majority of the Federation was unaware of who they are. Remember when Burnham was first brought aboard Discovery, one of the guys noted the black badges, and showed confusion because he didn't recognize it. It was only in season 2 where we learn its tied to Section 31 when Georgiou reveals her connection to the organization. And Pike knowing about it probably stems from his friendship with Leeland, a Section 31 agent. But we did see them but heads over how to handle a situation, which to me shows that even then Starfleet and S31 had tension in how to get a job done.
And I think you guys are also missing something big. Its not an organziation meant to subvert the idealistic Federation or all the achievements Humanity has made. They say it themselves! They are willing to get their hands dirty FOR those ideals. They claim to do what Starfleet won't FOR the Federation.
They may not follow the ideals, but they defend them. They're basically True Believers. Even Crusaders. And that... is more dangerous than just being the "evil organization that subverts". That also allows for a level of flexability in the identity of the organization. They're not the moustache twirling villians you're claiming them to be. Section 31 is literally a rabbit hole of espionage, deception, and at times brute force that, for all intents and purposes, views itself as a guardian of the Federation.
They're not James Bond, but I wouldn't put it past them to try to be. Lincense to Kill and all.
Short version: S31 is the embodyment of "The Ends justify The Means". Not Snively Whiplash evil. And that is more dangerous.
Cause does not justify means. Section 31 tried GENOCIDE.
Well, so did those who attacked the Federation.
Or do people think that the Dominion was just pouring entire fleets through the wormhole and destroying allied ones because they were hoping to hold their vacation on Risa?
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rattler2Member, Star Trek Online ModeratorPosts: 58,582Community Moderator
As far as I know, the Federation itself, and Starfleet by extension, would never condone Genocide. The only time I can think of where Starfleet did was with the Borg, but Picard chose a different option. One that would have far reaching effects on the Collective in the future. Other than that... The Federation has never to my knowledge attempted outright, open genocide. Accused of making a genocide weapon yes (Genesis Device). But never actually sanctioned the act itself.
Could the Borg have been wiped out if Picard followed orders? Hard to say due to the nature of the Collective, and its ability to adapt. But its possible that what Picard did opened the door for things like Unimatrix Zero and the Cooperative. Something that got ripped wide open with a certain Intrepid shaped wedge in 2378.
Cause does not justify means. Section 31 tried GENOCIDE.
Well, so did those who attacked the Federation.
Or do people think that the Dominion was just pouring entire fleets through the wormhole and destroying allied ones because they were hoping to hold their vacation on Risa?
So your argument is that because the bad guys did it first, that makes it okay?
Although, I honestly don't care so much about the bioweapon attack on the Founders. "Inter Arma Enim Silent Leges" is far more illustrative of Section 31's true nature. In order to ensure that the Romulan Star Empire will not later exit the Dominion War now they've joined the alliance, Section 31 tricks Bashir into helping them frame a Romulan senator for treason, which has the side benefit of putting one of their own moles in a more advantageous position.
That isn't "necessary evil". That is unnecessary evil. There was no hard evidence whatsoever provided that Sen. Kimara Cretak had any intention whatsoever of trying to take her government out of the war. Nor was there any evidence that the Romulan Empire would frankly be stupid enough to actually follow through on such a proposal, given they'd have to hope the Founders would be in a forgiving mood afterwards (hint: the Female Changeling planned to exterminate the Cardassians for the Omarion Nebula preemptive strike all along, per "Broken Link"; she's not going to just let the Romulans walk now they've also broken a treaty and declared war on the Dominion on top of it). And yet based on pure speculation, Section 31 got her a probable death sentence from a totalitarian state that has a list of known human rights abuses that would make Stalin himself jealous.
That's why I keep harping on Sloan's closing speech from that episode about how the Federation's ideals are bunk and surviving in the real world requires Hard Men Doing Hard Things.
"Great War! / And I cannot take more! / Great tour! / I keep on marching on / I play the great score / There will be no encore / Great War! / The War to End All Wars"
— Sabaton, "Great War"
That's why I keep harping on Sloan's closing speech from that episode about how the Federation's ideals are bunk and surviving in the real world requires Hard Men Doing Hard Things.
Which is basically the core of my argument about Section 31 and what it is. I just didn't remember Sloan because its been a long time since I watched DS9.
Cause does not justify means. Section 31 tried GENOCIDE.
Well, so did those who attacked the Federation.
Or do people think that the Dominion was just pouring entire fleets through the wormhole and destroying allied ones because they were hoping to hold their vacation on Risa?
So your argument is that because the bad guys did it first, that makes it okay?
In the case of the bioweapon, yes.
They were fighting for survival. Basically, defending themselves against genocide. Of course, doing genocidal things isn't nice and so on, but maybe the Founders should've thought about that first.
Can't blame someone whose very existence you're threatening with acts of war, to consider doing the same.
Agreed on the stuff related to senator Cretak.
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rattler2Member, Star Trek Online ModeratorPosts: 58,582Community Moderator
Playing Devil's Advocate for a moment here...
The thing with Cretak, while seriously underhanded, I think was mostly an attempt to force the Romulans into the war on the side of the Federation. If I remember correctly, the official stance of the Star Empire for part of the war was a Non-Aggression Pact with the Dominion. It was a Tal Shiar fleet that joined the Obsidian Order for that failed strike, which I believe was meant to weaken both the Tal Shiar and Obsidian Order in the first place. The Star Empire as a whole after that were basically like "Meh. Not our fight".
It wasn't until a Senator was killed, and the blame cast on the Dominion, that the Star Empire became a real active participant in the war. The fact that the Star Empire had a Non-Aggression Pact with the Dominion, and was actually allowing Dominion forces through their territory, was a concern.
Underhanded? Most definitely.
Turned the tide of the war in favor of the Federation and its allies? Pretty much.
[/devilsadvocate]
^You're confusing Cretak with Vreenak there, Rattler.
"Great War! / And I cannot take more! / Great tour! / I keep on marching on / I play the great score / There will be no encore / Great War! / The War to End All Wars"
— Sabaton, "Great War"
Comments
While there are more adult oriented animations, those are usually looked down upon for something or other, and some people are rather against Anime for some reason.
Honestly never made sense to me. But part of it might be cultural.
More like LACK of culture. My mother, who is in her 60's, loves anime like I do. We're both watching One Piece, currently, and it's got better writing, stories, characters and so on that anything Hollywood, or the BBC, been making for years, now.
BTW I like Anime too. Watched some SAO (preferred the Gun Gale arc as there was less Kirito fangirling going on, as well as the GGO spinoff with Llenn), FATE, Gate, Magnificent Kotobuki, Girls und Panzer... need to finish Azur Lane and start Valkyria Chronicles...
Having grown up with Tom & Jerry, Pokémon, Spongebob, Donald Duck and so on, the association with comics and animated tv and childhood will likely remain.
Though, besides this, it may also be because sometimes in animated series you get these over the top reactions from characters. The pointless yelling in Dragon Ball Z for example, the ridiculous faces, the unrealistic characteristics... It's something you expect children to like, not adults who are assumed to be a bit more balanced and in control of their emotions.
Just a thought I had.
The concept was interesting. And it was carried out well in DS9. Not so much in Discovery, perhaps also not in Enterprise where they basically only served as a quick solution provider.
In DS9 there were plot twists (the one with the Romulan Senator who was working for them), actual dilemma's on whether or not to cooperate with them (regarding Odo and the disease created by S31) and so on.
Did you say SiegfrieEEEDDD?
No? Okay.
Hey, I felt that way about Star trek: Voyager - still do -but hey that garbage with it's bi-polar captain who couldn't make up her mind to follow the Prime Directive or not on a weekly basis got 7 seasons.
Happy to hear "Section 31" is moving forward, and can't wait to see the series with Michelle Yeoh in the lead.
PWE ARC Drone says: "Your STO forum community as you have known it is ended...Display names are irrelevant...Any further sense of community is irrelevant...Resistance is futile...You will be assimilated..."
I despise unacknowledged, black ops military organizations.
Check out one piece.....extreme body language and so on, grotesque human forms, BUT this is pretty adult stuff.
By means of organizing the secret extermination of political dissidents after World War III.
Section 31's entire ethos from its inception is that the entire ethos of the Federation -- chiefly that we don't always have to be going for the throat while dealing with other countries, that we can take a risk and try friendship instead -- is bunk, that surviving in the Real World™ requires Hard Men Doing Hard Things for King and Country™.
That's fine for a show like 24, whose showrunners once got told off by a US Army general for normalizing torture to West Point cadets. It is not fine for a franchise whose entire message is that we're supposed to be better than that.
"Awwww, you have ideals and believe in accountability to a representative democratic government? That's so cuuuuuute! Do it again, I've got popcorn and everything!"
There's a big phekk'ta difference between trying and failing to live up to one's ideals (c.f. Sisko in "In the Pale Moonlight"), and actively repudiating the concept of even having ideals. Section 31 is the latter, and it has always been the latter. I'm fine with its existence, though, as long as it's a villain deserving of no more consideration than necessary to root it out and destroy it, as it was in DS9.
— Sabaton, "Great War"
Check out https://unitedfederationofpla.net/s/
A little fanfiction writing here, but maybe during the Earth-Romulan War, Section 31 saw a way to become something more than just a shadow organization living off a clause in the original Starfleet Charter. Have a real say in things. Which lead to the Section 31 we saw in Discovery, where they were portrayed more like the CIA from the Vietnam War era or something like that. Their own assets and operations, like SOG, but a legit organization within the Federation. After the Control incident, which decimated Section 31's standing assets, they had to restructure again. Something about that restructure drove them back underground to develop into the shadow organization we know in DS9. Either some kind of falling out with Starfleet Intelligence or just a total break from Starfleet in general that causes them to go rogue. Something we MAY witness in the upcoming Section 31 series.
I kind of doubt Kurtzman Trek can go that deep, the closest they have gotten to deep and subtle so far has been Lower Decks, and that is not particularly deep or subtle compared to a lot of other shows. For some reason Kurtzman keeps them going on the path most travelled, not the least travelled. It would be nice if they could though.
To me, there is no such thing as necessary evil, for evil is evil.
And Vietnam was based on a lie, according to recent declassified documents, the gulf of tonkin incident was a false flag operation. So many died, on both sides, for a LIE.
Section 31 is homicidal, genocidal and maniacal.
Necessary evil doesn't fit Star Trek, nor is it appropriate IRL. Sometimes there are bad choices and worse choices, but creating a whole organization about subverting your own ideals is a disaster waiting to happen. So many government organizations created with the best intentions become corrupted and dangerous vestiges and can endanger the entire government with their nonsense. It is one of the issues of government IRL, which you can just boil down to the old adage: power corrupts.
Trek is supposed to be about a society that moved past that, not one that goes completely backwards and deliberately creates evil organizations. I find it comical that something directly inserted into the Federation charter could ever be considered secret and not used openly (If ST:D went with the openly existing organization, I'd say its actually the most believable.) As we see in the current day, many governments find it convenient to completely suspend the rights of their people, rights that are no where permitted to be suppressed indefinitely in case of emergency, and over something with a >99% survival rate for most people, and still over 90% for the most vulnerable, while by contrast section 31 explicitly allows that for emergencies.
It didn't. They created themselves using a clause in the original Starfleet Charter.
We're also talking at least 200 years of history. In the 22nd and 24th Centuries they were the boogyman. However at one point in the 23rd they were actually a legit Black Ops organization with its own fleet, bases, and even support from the Admiralty to some degree. However the majority of the Federation was unaware of who they are. Remember when Burnham was first brought aboard Discovery, one of the guys noted the black badges, and showed confusion because he didn't recognize it. It was only in season 2 where we learn its tied to Section 31 when Georgiou reveals her connection to the organization. And Pike knowing about it probably stems from his friendship with Leeland, a Section 31 agent. But we did see them but heads over how to handle a situation, which to me shows that even then Starfleet and S31 had tension in how to get a job done.
And I think you guys are also missing something big. Its not an organziation meant to subvert the idealistic Federation or all the achievements Humanity has made. They say it themselves! They are willing to get their hands dirty FOR those ideals. They claim to do what Starfleet won't FOR the Federation.
They may not follow the ideals, but they defend them. They're basically True Believers. Even Crusaders. And that... is more dangerous than just being the "evil organization that subverts". That also allows for a level of flexability in the identity of the organization. They're not the moustache twirling villians you're claiming them to be. Section 31 is literally a rabbit hole of espionage, deception, and at times brute force that, for all intents and purposes, views itself as a guardian of the Federation.
They're not James Bond, but I wouldn't put it past them to try to be. Lincense to Kill and all.
Short version: S31 is the embodyment of "The Ends justify The Means". Not Snively Whiplash evil. And that is more dangerous.
Cause does not justify means. Section 31 tried GENOCIDE.
Section 31 is supposedly allowed under the Federation Charter. Obviously they are not proper Starfleet, in presumably the sort of way the US Congress is the legislative branch and totally separate from the President who is the executive branch. But they are explicitly created and organized by some other part of the Federation, like the CIA or FBI.
I'm not sure what you're getting at in the point about the type of evil S31 is, as I don't think anyone is making a point of that. The issue with section 31 is that by ignoring the ideals of the Federation and being the group with no oversight and no limits, they can do anything they want if they think it is justified for the good of all. This is where the greatest evils of this world tend to come from, under the guise of safety or the common good.
A provision that "makes allowances for bending the rules in times of extreme threat" (quoting ENT) is not the same thing as authorization to create a permanent agency that acts entirely outside the law, that explicitly considers it its job to break the rules so those silly idealists like Picard and Bashir can pretend to have their utopia (paraphrasing Sloan in "Inter Arma Enim Silent Leges", as above).
Does the Federation need spies? Yes. That's why Starfleet Intelligence exists. It doesn't need an equivalent to the Obsidian Order or Tal Shiar, i.e. what Section 31 was explicitly conceived as (per Ira Steven Behr), because—HELLO?—the Federation isn't a godsdamned totalitarian state that needs to be protected from its own people, it's a representative democracy that needs its agencies to be accountable to protect the people from the state. That's why criminal defendants get lawyers, and it's why Cabinet secretaries and other agency heads can be subpoenaed to testify before Congress. Accountability isn't an "obstacle to doing what's necessary", it's an obstacle to people deciding, for example, that subverting democracy to keep favored people in power is "necessary".
— Sabaton, "Great War"
Check out https://unitedfederationofpla.net/s/
— Sabaton, "Great War"
Check out https://unitedfederationofpla.net/s/
I don't think we have an actual Starfleet charter to look at and read and discuss the legalese. S31 is clearly an officially operating agency with power within the Federation government/Starfleet, otherwise it would be stamped out.
As for emergency laws, there are no such provisions in the US Constitution. The judiciary has allowed the executive to have emergency powers that the legislatures give them with the understanding that they are very temporary in nature and narrowly defined and so forth. The lockdowns and similar stuff are being declared unconstitutional for a number of reasons, in part the neverending nature of them, as well as the unreasonableness of the measures and how broad and inconsistent they are. And that very issue is why Section 31 is so dangerous. (Lincoln was actually something of a tyrant in some of what he did, and is not a good example at all.)
The fact that leaders are willing to bend and break the rules, using emergency declarations where the emergency is questionable at best, never well defined, allowing an unending state of emergency allows for massive abuses of power, as we presently see. Anything can be called an emergency, especially with the help of poor information or disinformation, which allows them to do whatever they want without any accountability.
S31 in DSC is about like the operations the CIA carried out (illegally) within the US in the '50s and '60s. Except that the CIA didn't operate a self-aware, hostile computer system (as far as we know, anyway...
(My headcanon is that other than the period in DSC, S31 was about as "real" as the so-called "militias" here in the States, and manages to crop up every so often, claiming to be official, mostly because the Federation's law enforcement is incredibly lax.)
That's actually what I WAS trying to say. That because they don't follow the rules to "protect" the Federation from threats, they're more dangerous than your average, obvious evil guys. Yet some people claim that they are just straight up evil like some moustache twirling villain on the simple fact that "humanity has moved on from such things" in Star Trek. Yes S31 has done evil things, like trying to genocide the Changelings in DS9, but its not evil for the sake of evil. Its evil for a good cause. The Road to Hell is paved with Good Intentions sort of evil. People who are willing to do literally ANYTHING for the Federation, even violate its highest laws. Section 31 is far more complex than some people are making them out to be.
What separates a True Believer Patriot from a Madman? A cause. And Section 31 has a cause. And they are willing to do whatever it takes, no matter how dirty, underhanded, or even outright evil, to follow said cause. And that cause, is to protect the Federation from threats.
That... is why Section 31 is far more complex, and far more dangerous. They believe in the ideals of the Federation but they don't follow them because to them, at the end of the day, ideals are all well and good, but mean nothing if you're dead. So to preserve the idealistic Federation, they take it upon themselves to do what the Federation will not. Eliminate threats by any means necessary. ANY means.
Well that doesn't really disagree with what I said or what I think on the matter. If S31 were illegal it would be removed. That doesn't stop a legal entity from doing illegal things, but because it is legal they are supported and they have very little oversight and can get away with doing illegal things like the CIA, at least for a while.
Well, so did those who attacked the Federation.
Or do people think that the Dominion was just pouring entire fleets through the wormhole and destroying allied ones because they were hoping to hold their vacation on Risa?
Could the Borg have been wiped out if Picard followed orders? Hard to say due to the nature of the Collective, and its ability to adapt. But its possible that what Picard did opened the door for things like Unimatrix Zero and the Cooperative. Something that got ripped wide open with a certain Intrepid shaped wedge in 2378.
So your argument is that because the bad guys did it first, that makes it okay?
Although, I honestly don't care so much about the bioweapon attack on the Founders. "Inter Arma Enim Silent Leges" is far more illustrative of Section 31's true nature. In order to ensure that the Romulan Star Empire will not later exit the Dominion War now they've joined the alliance, Section 31 tricks Bashir into helping them frame a Romulan senator for treason, which has the side benefit of putting one of their own moles in a more advantageous position.
That isn't "necessary evil". That is unnecessary evil. There was no hard evidence whatsoever provided that Sen. Kimara Cretak had any intention whatsoever of trying to take her government out of the war. Nor was there any evidence that the Romulan Empire would frankly be stupid enough to actually follow through on such a proposal, given they'd have to hope the Founders would be in a forgiving mood afterwards (hint: the Female Changeling planned to exterminate the Cardassians for the Omarion Nebula preemptive strike all along, per "Broken Link"; she's not going to just let the Romulans walk now they've also broken a treaty and declared war on the Dominion on top of it). And yet based on pure speculation, Section 31 got her a probable death sentence from a totalitarian state that has a list of known human rights abuses that would make Stalin himself jealous.
That's why I keep harping on Sloan's closing speech from that episode about how the Federation's ideals are bunk and surviving in the real world requires Hard Men Doing Hard Things.
— Sabaton, "Great War"
Check out https://unitedfederationofpla.net/s/
From the point of view of Section 31... they are a necessary evil because the Federation won't do it themselves.
Which is basically the core of my argument about Section 31 and what it is. I just didn't remember Sloan because its been a long time since I watched DS9.
In the case of the bioweapon, yes.
They were fighting for survival. Basically, defending themselves against genocide. Of course, doing genocidal things isn't nice and so on, but maybe the Founders should've thought about that first.
Can't blame someone whose very existence you're threatening with acts of war, to consider doing the same.
Agreed on the stuff related to senator Cretak.
The thing with Cretak, while seriously underhanded, I think was mostly an attempt to force the Romulans into the war on the side of the Federation. If I remember correctly, the official stance of the Star Empire for part of the war was a Non-Aggression Pact with the Dominion. It was a Tal Shiar fleet that joined the Obsidian Order for that failed strike, which I believe was meant to weaken both the Tal Shiar and Obsidian Order in the first place. The Star Empire as a whole after that were basically like "Meh. Not our fight".
It wasn't until a Senator was killed, and the blame cast on the Dominion, that the Star Empire became a real active participant in the war. The fact that the Star Empire had a Non-Aggression Pact with the Dominion, and was actually allowing Dominion forces through their territory, was a concern.
Underhanded? Most definitely.
Turned the tide of the war in favor of the Federation and its allies? Pretty much.
[/devilsadvocate]
— Sabaton, "Great War"
Check out https://unitedfederationofpla.net/s/