You're assuming that Starfleet created Section 31 guys.
It didn't. They created themselves using a clause in the original Starfleet Charter.
We're also talking at least 200 years of history. In the 22nd and 24th Centuries they were the boogyman. However at one point in the 23rd they were actually a legit Black Ops organization with its own fleet, bases, and even support from the Admiralty to some degree. However the majority of the Federation was unaware of who they are. Remember when Burnham was first brought aboard Discovery, one of the guys noted the black badges, and showed confusion because he didn't recognize it. It was only in season 2 where we learn its tied to Section 31 when Georgiou reveals her connection to the organization. And Pike knowing about it probably stems from his friendship with Leeland, a Section 31 agent. But we did see them but heads over how to handle a situation, which to me shows that even then Starfleet and S31 had tension in how to get a job done.
And I think you guys are also missing something big. Its not an organziation meant to subvert the idealistic Federation or all the achievements Humanity has made. They say it themselves! They are willing to get their hands dirty FOR those ideals. They claim to do what Starfleet won't FOR the Federation.
They may not follow the ideals, but they defend them. They're basically True Believers. Even Crusaders. And that... is more dangerous than just being the "evil organization that subverts". That also allows for a level of flexability in the identity of the organization. They're not the moustache twirling villians you're claiming them to be. Section 31 is literally a rabbit hole of espionage, deception, and at times brute force that, for all intents and purposes, views itself as a guardian of the Federation.
They're not James Bond, but I wouldn't put it past them to try to be. Lincense to Kill and all.
Short version: S31 is the embodyment of "The Ends justify The Means". Not Snively Whiplash evil. And that is more dangerous.
Basically, S31 is 'Animal Farm: by Star Trek'. Those most dedicated to the defence of their ideals seldom live up to them. "The revolution devours its own children" 'n' all that. They're the CIA, NSA, KGB, etc - trampling over their regimes' supposed principles for the 'greater good'.
Hint here: The Prime Directive exists for the same reason. Ideally you'd catch imperialist wingnuts like that idiot from "Patterns of Force" with pre-enlistment psychiatric screenings, but in the case that one slips through, the prospect of serious legal trouble for acting like a conquistador might just deter them from acting on their tribbley idea.
From the point of view of Section 31... they are a necessary evil because the Federation won't do it themselves.
Yes...GOOD people don't do genocide, or horrific things for 'the better good'.
So the United States became irrevocably evil in 1945, at Hiroshima and Nagasaki? Even though millions more would have died had the war ended more conventionally?
Remember, as Obi-wan Kenobi said, only Sith deal in absolutes! (Which itself is an absolute statement, meaning that Obi-wan was a Sith...)
From the point of view of Section 31... they are a necessary evil because the Federation won't do it themselves.
Yes...GOOD people don't do genocide, or horrific things for 'the better good'.
So the United States became irrevocably evil in 1945, at Hiroshima and Nagasaki? Even though millions more would have died had the war ended more conventionally?
Remember, as Obi-wan Kenobi said, only Sith deal in absolutes! (Which itself is an absolute statement, meaning that Obi-wan was a Sith...)
and now EVERYONE has nukes....and a military target, not cilivian targets would have been better, if anything.
From the point of view of Section 31... they are a necessary evil because the Federation won't do it themselves.
Yes...GOOD people don't do genocide, or horrific things for 'the better good'.
So the United States became irrevocably evil in 1945, at Hiroshima and Nagasaki? Even though millions more would have died had the war ended more conventionally?
Remember, as Obi-wan Kenobi said, only Sith deal in absolutes! (Which itself is an absolute statement, meaning that Obi-wan was a Sith...)
You are either suggesting the A bombs were genocidal (unlikely and absurd), or just horrific. I'll assume the latter. The problem with that view is that the A bombs were effectively no different than any other bomb; it sucks to be underneath it. War is horrific, but I'd be real surprised if she means that bombs and other weapons shouldn't be used to prosecute a war, as that is one of Starfleet's jobs, should the need arise.
The effects of the radiation (which you are possibly alluding to as being horrific) are wildly overstated in the popular mind, and really only affected some people who were exposed in the explosion or immediate aftermath. Most people that survived got less radiation exposure than a hospital X-ray. Birth defects were not increased in statistically significant numbers, nor did future generations from bomb survivors have more problems with birth defects. Nagasaki and Hiroshima started rebuilding after the war, and people have lived in the cities ever since with no discernible lingering effects of radiation.
In fairness, you can make an argument that the US was evil before the A-bombs. In terms of absolute destructive power the fire bombings of various Japanese cities did a lot more damage than the singular nuclear attacks - it was the scale that was so frightening. And the fire bombings weren't even vaguely against military targets: the strategy was explicitly chosen because most Japanese homes were made of wood and thus incendiary bombing would inflict the greatest suffering on the civilian population. Then there are the various raids by all sides of WWII specifically targeting population zones over industrial zones like the Blitz, the fire bombings of Dresden, Hamburg, etc. Nobody ever comes out of war a Saint.
From the point of view of Section 31... they are a necessary evil because the Federation won't do it themselves.
Yes...GOOD people don't do genocide, or horrific things for 'the better good'.
So the United States became irrevocably evil in 1945, at Hiroshima and Nagasaki? Even though millions more would have died had the war ended more conventionally?
Remember, as Obi-wan Kenobi said, only Sith deal in absolutes! (Which itself is an absolute statement, meaning that Obi-wan was a Sith...)
You are either suggesting the A bombs were genocidal (unlikely and absurd), or just horrific. I'll assume the latter. The problem with that view is that the A bombs were effectively no different than any other bomb; it sucks to be underneath it. War is horrific, but I'd be real surprised if she means that bombs and other weapons shouldn't be used to prosecute a war, as that is one of Starfleet's jobs, should the need arise.
The effects of the radiation (which you are possibly alluding to as being horrific) are wildly overstated in the popular mind, and really only affected some people who were exposed in the explosion or immediate aftermath. Most people that survived got less radiation exposure than a hospital X-ray. Birth defects were not increased in statistically significant numbers, nor did future generations from bomb survivors have more problems with birth defects. Nagasaki and Hiroshima started rebuilding after the war, and people have lived in the cities ever since with no discernible lingering effects of radiation.
Fox, that bit about the radiation simply isn't true. The numbers of Hiroshima and Nagasaki dead from radiation exposure are massive - it's just most of them died within hours or days. Do you know why so many survivors had low exposure? Because that's why they survived. And the reason there's been statistically little increase in birth defects as a result is because the numbers of survivors who were exposed long enough to accumulate that much radiation without being rendered dead or infertile are themselves minimal! As far as contamination goes... The A-bombs were literally fission bombs and nothing else. Modern thermonuclear warheads are specifically designed to spread radioactive material. Most of the radioactive material from fat man and Little boy was expended in the explosions.
From the point of view of Section 31... they are a necessary evil because the Federation won't do it themselves.
Yes...GOOD people don't do genocide, or horrific things for 'the better good'.
So the United States became irrevocably evil in 1945, at Hiroshima and Nagasaki? Even though millions more would have died had the war ended more conventionally?
Remember, as Obi-wan Kenobi said, only Sith deal in absolutes! (Which itself is an absolute statement, meaning that Obi-wan was a Sith...)
You are either suggesting the A bombs were genocidal (unlikely and absurd), or just horrific. I'll assume the latter. The problem with that view is that the A bombs were effectively no different than any other bomb; it sucks to be underneath it. War is horrific, but I'd be real surprised if she means that bombs and other weapons shouldn't be used to prosecute a war, as that is one of Starfleet's jobs, should the need arise.
The effects of the radiation (which you are possibly alluding to as being horrific) are wildly overstated in the popular mind, and really only affected some people who were exposed in the explosion or immediate aftermath. Most people that survived got less radiation exposure than a hospital X-ray. Birth defects were not increased in statistically significant numbers, nor did future generations from bomb survivors have more problems with birth defects. Nagasaki and Hiroshima started rebuilding after the war, and people have lived in the cities ever since with no discernible lingering effects of radiation.
Fox, that bit about the radiation simply isn't true. The numbers of Hiroshima and Nagasaki dead from radiation exposure are massive - it's just most of them died within hours or days. Do you know why so many survivors had low exposure? Because that's why they survived. And the reason there's been statistically little increase in birth defects as a result is because the numbers of survivors who were exposed long enough to accumulate that much radiation without being rendered dead or infertile are themselves minimal! As far as contamination goes... The A-bombs were literally fission bombs and nothing else. Modern thermonuclear warheads are specifically designed to spread radioactive material. Most of the radioactive material from fat man and Little boy was expended in the explosions.
Yes they died from the initial bomb blast, days or weeks later. It isn't much different from dying from burns or bleeding out. The body just can't handle the amount of damage done by the exposure to the explosion. That the damage wasn't done by the heat, shrapnel, or pressure wave is honestly not even relevant. Radiation does nothing more spectacular than killing random cells in the body, and that can include a lot of white blood cells, leading to death by infections, but can also simply cause organ failure. Low exposure to radiation the body can handle, the dead cells get removed and replaced normally. High exposure is just too much damage to handle.
But as you yourself point out, there wasn't much radiation left after the bombs, which is my point. The survivors didn't have to deal with real issues from lingering radiation. Hiroshima and Nagasaki were not rendered uninhabitable dead zones.
Claims of infertility is going to need a source, because there were thousands of pregnant women affected by the bomb and radiation and that is where the statistically insignificant increase in birth defects came from, while there were also long term studies of survivors and their children that saw no long term increase in birth defects.
Pretty sure that the causes of death or the issue of whether radiation would cause additional problems, are largely irrelevant to the question whether it was wrong to drop those bombs.
At least today, wiping out an entire city including all of its civilian targets, would be considered a war crime.
It may have been necessary. But in that case it was necessary evil.
[4:46] [Combat {self}] Your Haymaker deals 23337 (9049) Physical Damage(Critical) to Spawnmother
Pretty sure that the causes of death or the issue of whether radiation would cause additional problems, are largely irrelevant to the question whether it was wrong to drop those bombs.
At least today, wiping out an entire city including all of its civilian targets, would be considered a war crime.
It may have been necessary. But in that case it was necessary evil.
At least today, wiping out an entire city including all of its civilian targets, would be considered a war crime.
Which is why I mention the firebombings of Tokyo, etc. Like the dropping of the A-bombs, they were explicitly targeted at inflicting suffering on the civilian population.
Today maybe. But back then it was considered a legit strategy. We'd never do that today. That's the key difference here. We have technology that makes it easier to avoid civilian causalties now. Back then we didn't. Hell... London was raided dang near constantly, and that's not a military target. Laws of Warfare change with the times and the technology.
Problem is there will always be groups that won't give a frak, like Terrorist Groups. Nations may respect the Geneva Convention, but Terrorists won't. War is changing. Always has, always will. What matters is how nations respond to ever changing threats.
As for the A-Bomb...
Ultimately though, Hiroshima and Nagasaki convinced the Emperor himself to step in and smack the Imperial Japanese Military because they were willing to fight to the last man, woman, and child even AFTER that. The Emperor actually did something that saved countless lives on both sides by calling for Japan to surrender and telling the Military to take a flying leap.
History is not black and white, and we can't hold the past accountable against today's laws. We can only learn from the past, and hold actions today accountable according to today's laws.
Anyways we should probably go back to the subject at hand since we're kinda off in left field.
funny thing is, the london blitz happened because of an accident...his royal fruitcake originally ordered london to be left alone, but during one of the luftwaffe's night raids, a group lost their way and accidentally bombed london...so churchill retaliated by bombing berlin, and old bubblehead ALSO retaliated by starting nightly london bombings
A normie goes "Oh, what's this?"
An otaku goes "UwU, what's this?"
A furry goes "OwO, what's this?"
A werewolf goes "Awoo, what's this?"
"It's nothing personal, I just don't feel like I've gotten to know a person until I've sniffed their crotch." "We said 'no' to Mr. Curiosity. We're not home. Curiosity is not welcome, it is not to be invited in. Curiosity...is bad. It gets you in trouble, it gets you killed, and more importantly...it makes you poor!"
Passion and Serenity are one.
I gain power by understanding both.
In the chaos of their battle, I bring order.
I am a shadow, darkness born from light.
The Force is united within me.
Today maybe. But back then it was considered a legit strategy. We'd never do that today. That's the key difference here. We have technology that makes it easier to avoid civilian causalties now. Back then we didn't. Hell... London was raided dang near constantly, and that's not a military target. Laws of Warfare change with the times and the technology.
Problem is there will always be groups that won't give a frak, like Terrorist Groups. Nations may respect the Geneva Convention, but Terrorists won't. War is changing. Always has, always will. What matters is how nations respond to ever changing threats.
As for the A-Bomb...
Ultimately though, Hiroshima and Nagasaki convinced the Emperor himself to step in and smack the Imperial Japanese Military because they were willing to fight to the last man, woman, and child even AFTER that. The Emperor actually did something that saved countless lives on both sides by calling for Japan to surrender and telling the Military to take a flying leap.
History is not black and white, and we can't hold the past accountable against today's laws. We can only learn from the past, and hold actions today accountable according to today's laws.
Anyways we should probably go back to the subject at hand since we're kinda off in left field.
Yes, this. Things were different back then, not just because of technology but the context of the times. Mistakes caused retaliation in Europe. In the Pacific, the Japanese would routinely prove to be a dishonorable foe by fake surrendering, killing medics, POWs, while generally fighting to the last man (remember the story about the guy in the Philippines who wouldn't surrender for 40 something years?) to say nothing of the Japanese war crimes against civilian populations (Nanking?)
Also what people probably don't know about is that the US was dropping leaflets to the civilians, warning them that cities were targeted for firebombing and they should leave. This didn't happen to warn Hiroshima, however, but after Hiroshima, regular radio messages repeated warnings of more atom bomb attacks if they didn't surrender. And that was the entire goal of the bombing campaigns, to cause such complete devastation that the Japanese people knew they could not stand up against it, that their only option was to surrender or be annihilated.
I think its important to understand that context, because this was a people that were willing to fight to the last and do absolutely anything to win. What were the actual options?
And that was the entire goal of the bombing campaigns, to cause such complete devastation that the Japanese people knew they could not stand up against it, that their only option was to surrender or be annihilated.
How did the firebombing go in Germany? Or the nightly bombing raids on London, Birmingham, Belfast, Coventry, Manchester, et al. How quickly did the Germans/UK buckle under the pressure of massed strategic bombing raids?
Oh, that's right. They didn't. Because all the mass bombings actually achieved by terrorising the civilian population was to galvanise resistance against the enemy.
And that was the entire goal of the bombing campaigns, to cause such complete devastation that the Japanese people knew they could not stand up against it, that their only option was to surrender or be annihilated.
How did the firebombing go in Germany? Or the nightly bombing raids on London, Birmingham, Belfast, Coventry, Manchester, et al. How quickly did the Germans/UK buckle under the pressure of massed strategic bombing raids?
Oh, that's right. They didn't. Because all the mass bombings actually achieved by terrorising the civilian population was to galvanise resistance against the enemy.
The success of the atomic bombs in convincing the Emperor to override his generals came because things like the firebombing of Tokyo took days, and dozens of aircraft, so they could imagine defending themselves or escaping. Hiroshima was destroyed by one bomb, dropped by one plane - and the followup at Nagasaki left the impression that the USAAF could do this as many times as they wanted, with impunity. (In fact, there were only two atomic bombs in existence at that point, with a third being assembled at Trinity - but the Manhattan Project guys didn't tell Japanese high command that part...).
In effect, it was the ultimate terror weapon. And the invention of the hydrogen fusion bomb less than a decade later fueled the "need" for a cold war between the only two superpowers at the time, because both sides knew that if their conflict went hot it would kill everyone. (This was maintained due to a belief on each side that if they relaxed their posture, the other would take advantage of the opportunity to defeat their foe while only killing half the planet.)
We're actually fortunate that the Third Reich surrendered when it did, because originally Little Boy had been slated for Berlin.
that never would have happened - there's no way in hell anything germany did could've staved off armies coming from three different directions for another 4 months, even if mustache's insane ardennes offensive (AKA the battle of the bulge) had actually worked
A normie goes "Oh, what's this?"
An otaku goes "UwU, what's this?"
A furry goes "OwO, what's this?"
A werewolf goes "Awoo, what's this?"
"It's nothing personal, I just don't feel like I've gotten to know a person until I've sniffed their crotch." "We said 'no' to Mr. Curiosity. We're not home. Curiosity is not welcome, it is not to be invited in. Curiosity...is bad. It gets you in trouble, it gets you killed, and more importantly...it makes you poor!"
Passion and Serenity are one.
I gain power by understanding both.
In the chaos of their battle, I bring order.
I am a shadow, darkness born from light.
The Force is united within me.
Nuclear bombs....giving every loonie in power with the ability to destroy...more so.
Any wonder why teens and folks in their 20's during the 60's were wondering if they'd even be alive at age 30?
Nukes are one of the WORST things we EVER invented. We don't need them...all they do is WRECK the planet, and imagine what occurs to places, things and lifeforms living in other dimensions, in the same space we detonate all these horrible things.
Back to topic, Kurtzman needs to go and find some other series to wreck, or do something original on his own.
With Lower Decks, like JJ had little to do with Beyond, Kurtzman seems to have little to do with Lower Decks, since it feels like fans make this. McMann's doing pretty good.
The success of the atomic bombs in convincing the Emperor to override his generals came because things like the firebombing of Tokyo took days, and dozens of aircraft, so they could imagine defending themselves or escaping. Hiroshima was destroyed by one bomb, dropped by one plane - and the followup at Nagasaki left the impression that the USAAF could do this as many times as they wanted, with impunity. (In fact, there were only two atomic bombs in existence at that point, with a third being assembled at Trinity - but the Manhattan Project guys didn't tell Japanese high command that part...).
Actually...surviving Japanese records indicate the Japanese were well aware of the US nuclear programme, and in fact the IJA had estimated US production of atomic weapons at no more than 2 bombs every month (which was something of an overestimate as it turned out). In other words, the Japanese government had a pretty good idea that the US couldn't sustain a continued rate of nuclear bombardment - certainly not before the scheduled start date of Operation Downfall (the Allied invasion of Japan). It was the capture of a US fighter pilot, who "informed" his captors that the US had a stockpile of "100s" of a-bombs which moved enough of the Japanese cabinet to accept surrender. That information was only given to the cabinet at 1430, after the main figures of the cabinet had already debated the bombing and failed to establish a majority for surrender.
Nukes are one of the WORST things we EVER invented. We don't need them...all they do is WRECK the planet, and imagine what occurs to places, things and lifeforms living in other dimensions, in the same space we detonate all these horrible things.
Considering the fact that no nukes have been used in war since, pretty much everyone knows that it is literally Mutually Assured Destruction. No one wins when the big bombs come out. The only nation I would really worry about having nukes right now is North Korea. They don't care whatsoever, as long as they can threaten nations that had them for decades. They may want the ability to destroy a city, but pretty much everyone around them has the ability to wipe them off the face of the Earth. And they don't care.
As for other dimensions... we simply do not know. At the same time... we don't know if what they do affects us either. They may be detonating antimatter warheads for all we know. Trying to cite other dimensions as an argument... when we have no scientific evidence, is not really an argument that can be grounded in fact. Its speculation that can be used unaltered to argue against literally ANYTHING. Even me typing this out could be considered bad because who knows... maybe some alternate version of me is sitting here at the same exact moment with a headache because I'm typing on my keyboard... which makes no sense whatsoever.
Nukes are one of the WORST things we EVER invented. We don't need them...all they do is WRECK the planet, and imagine what occurs to places, things and lifeforms living in other dimensions, in the same space we detonate all these horrible things.
Considering the fact that no nukes have been used in war since, pretty much everyone knows that it is literally Mutually Assured Destruction. No one wins when the big bombs come out. The only nation I would really worry about having nukes right now is North Korea. They don't care whatsoever, as long as they can threaten nations that had them for decades. They may want the ability to destroy a city, but pretty much everyone around them has the ability to wipe them off the face of the Earth. And they don't care.
As for other dimensions... we simply do not know. At the same time... we don't know if what they do affects us either. They may be detonating antimatter warheads for all we know. Trying to cite other dimensions as an argument... when we have no scientific evidence, is not really an argument that can be grounded in fact. Its speculation that can be used unaltered to argue against literally ANYTHING. Even me typing this out could be considered bad because who knows... maybe some alternate version of me is sitting here at the same exact moment with a headache because I'm typing on my keyboard... which makes no sense whatsoever.
That don't do anything....just more like the hillbilly who reaches for his shotgun each time he sees someone walking down the road, "GIT OVA M' PROPERTEE!" sorta thing. And it's the United States, who has THOUSANDS of nukes, I am worried about, not Korea.
We don't need nukes, period. Mankind has more than enough toys to destroy himself without nukes. Time to make technology to HELP and SAVE lives...not to take them, or destroy lands.
And seeing the ancient city of Mohenjo daro, which something HORRIBLE happened.....skeletons seen as if they were running from something, holding hands.....and being radio active, as well as vitrified stones and brick.....SOMETHING really weird happened, and makes me believe the Indian sandscripts, which read like a sci fi novel, are true.
And that was the entire goal of the bombing campaigns, to cause such complete devastation that the Japanese people knew they could not stand up against it, that their only option was to surrender or be annihilated.
How did the firebombing go in Germany? Or the nightly bombing raids on London, Birmingham, Belfast, Coventry, Manchester, et al. How quickly did the Germans/UK buckle under the pressure of massed strategic bombing raids?
Oh, that's right. They didn't. Because all the mass bombings actually achieved by terrorising the civilian population was to galvanise resistance against the enemy.
Obviously those didn't work very well. Hindsight is sure useful isn't it? Still, what would have happened if those bombings didn't happen? We can't ever know. We seem to see no value targeting civilians today, nor do we need to thanks to technology, so I'd say the lesson is learned.
Keep in mind though, there were assassination attempts on Hitler, his people were not all on board with the plan, and on the other side, a more democratic country has public pressure to deal with. So lets not pretend that there isn't a break point for a populace. And in Japan's case, it turns out they only needed to break one man, and that very likely saved the lives of millions more.
i'd like to know how that's even possible...to make the beam weak enough to not outright kill or vaporize any organic on contact, it's a wonder it doesn't scatter on contact with the atmosphere, because it can't be very intense at that level
A normie goes "Oh, what's this?"
An otaku goes "UwU, what's this?"
A furry goes "OwO, what's this?"
A werewolf goes "Awoo, what's this?"
"It's nothing personal, I just don't feel like I've gotten to know a person until I've sniffed their crotch." "We said 'no' to Mr. Curiosity. We're not home. Curiosity is not welcome, it is not to be invited in. Curiosity...is bad. It gets you in trouble, it gets you killed, and more importantly...it makes you poor!"
Passion and Serenity are one.
I gain power by understanding both.
In the chaos of their battle, I bring order.
I am a shadow, darkness born from light.
The Force is united within me.
Sanskrit (not sand-scrpt) is a literary language not a genera. You are talking about thousands of texts written over thousands of years... philosophies, histories, metaphysics, epics. Works translated from Pali, Persian, Chinese in addition to Indian legal and religious texts. They are not ancient-alien space operas despite how the History Channel may refer to them.
Also apparently that particular site may not have been handled properly during excavation, and some of the skeletons may not be from the same time period. For now its basically a sock drawer so we don't know what happened for sure. All we know is that site was destroyed. HOW it was destroyed is still up in the air.
Honestly I'd kinda believe another Pompei like event over ancient nukes right now without hard evidence.
i put money on it being a particularly radiant asteroid or celestial fragment of some kind - has the exact same effect of a nuclear detonation without buying into the utterly delusional BS of nukes existing prior to 1945
A normie goes "Oh, what's this?"
An otaku goes "UwU, what's this?"
A furry goes "OwO, what's this?"
A werewolf goes "Awoo, what's this?"
"It's nothing personal, I just don't feel like I've gotten to know a person until I've sniffed their crotch." "We said 'no' to Mr. Curiosity. We're not home. Curiosity is not welcome, it is not to be invited in. Curiosity...is bad. It gets you in trouble, it gets you killed, and more importantly...it makes you poor!"
Passion and Serenity are one.
I gain power by understanding both.
In the chaos of their battle, I bring order.
I am a shadow, darkness born from light.
The Force is united within me.
Comments
Basically, S31 is 'Animal Farm: by Star Trek'. Those most dedicated to the defence of their ideals seldom live up to them. "The revolution devours its own children" 'n' all that. They're the CIA, NSA, KGB, etc - trampling over their regimes' supposed principles for the 'greater good'.
Trials of Blood and Fire
Moving On Parts 1-3 - Part 4
In Cold Blood
It's become dogma by TNG.
https://skepticink.com/incredulous/2012/11/04/the-prime-directive-star-treks-doctrine-of-moral-laziness/
From the point of view of Section 31... they are a necessary evil because the Federation won't do it themselves.
Yes...GOOD people don't do genocide, or horrific things for 'the better good'.
Remember, as Obi-wan Kenobi said, only Sith deal in absolutes! (Which itself is an absolute statement, meaning that Obi-wan was a Sith...)
and now EVERYONE has nukes....and a military target, not cilivian targets would have been better, if anything.
You are either suggesting the A bombs were genocidal (unlikely and absurd), or just horrific. I'll assume the latter. The problem with that view is that the A bombs were effectively no different than any other bomb; it sucks to be underneath it. War is horrific, but I'd be real surprised if she means that bombs and other weapons shouldn't be used to prosecute a war, as that is one of Starfleet's jobs, should the need arise.
The effects of the radiation (which you are possibly alluding to as being horrific) are wildly overstated in the popular mind, and really only affected some people who were exposed in the explosion or immediate aftermath. Most people that survived got less radiation exposure than a hospital X-ray. Birth defects were not increased in statistically significant numbers, nor did future generations from bomb survivors have more problems with birth defects. Nagasaki and Hiroshima started rebuilding after the war, and people have lived in the cities ever since with no discernible lingering effects of radiation.
Trials of Blood and Fire
Moving On Parts 1-3 - Part 4
In Cold Blood
Fox, that bit about the radiation simply isn't true. The numbers of Hiroshima and Nagasaki dead from radiation exposure are massive - it's just most of them died within hours or days. Do you know why so many survivors had low exposure? Because that's why they survived. And the reason there's been statistically little increase in birth defects as a result is because the numbers of survivors who were exposed long enough to accumulate that much radiation without being rendered dead or infertile are themselves minimal! As far as contamination goes... The A-bombs were literally fission bombs and nothing else. Modern thermonuclear warheads are specifically designed to spread radioactive material. Most of the radioactive material from fat man and Little boy was expended in the explosions.
Trials of Blood and Fire
Moving On Parts 1-3 - Part 4
In Cold Blood
Yes they died from the initial bomb blast, days or weeks later. It isn't much different from dying from burns or bleeding out. The body just can't handle the amount of damage done by the exposure to the explosion. That the damage wasn't done by the heat, shrapnel, or pressure wave is honestly not even relevant. Radiation does nothing more spectacular than killing random cells in the body, and that can include a lot of white blood cells, leading to death by infections, but can also simply cause organ failure. Low exposure to radiation the body can handle, the dead cells get removed and replaced normally. High exposure is just too much damage to handle.
But as you yourself point out, there wasn't much radiation left after the bombs, which is my point. The survivors didn't have to deal with real issues from lingering radiation. Hiroshima and Nagasaki were not rendered uninhabitable dead zones.
Claims of infertility is going to need a source, because there were thousands of pregnant women affected by the bomb and radiation and that is where the statistically insignificant increase in birth defects came from, while there were also long term studies of survivors and their children that saw no long term increase in birth defects.
At least today, wiping out an entire city including all of its civilian targets, would be considered a war crime.
It may have been necessary. But in that case it was necessary evil.
[3/25 10:41][Combat (Self)]Your Haymaker deals 26187 (10692) Physical Damage(Critical) to Orinoco.
war crime
Which is why I mention the firebombings of Tokyo, etc. Like the dropping of the A-bombs, they were explicitly targeted at inflicting suffering on the civilian population.
Trials of Blood and Fire
Moving On Parts 1-3 - Part 4
In Cold Blood
Today maybe. But back then it was considered a legit strategy. We'd never do that today. That's the key difference here. We have technology that makes it easier to avoid civilian causalties now. Back then we didn't. Hell... London was raided dang near constantly, and that's not a military target. Laws of Warfare change with the times and the technology.
Problem is there will always be groups that won't give a frak, like Terrorist Groups. Nations may respect the Geneva Convention, but Terrorists won't. War is changing. Always has, always will. What matters is how nations respond to ever changing threats.
As for the A-Bomb...
Ultimately though, Hiroshima and Nagasaki convinced the Emperor himself to step in and smack the Imperial Japanese Military because they were willing to fight to the last man, woman, and child even AFTER that. The Emperor actually did something that saved countless lives on both sides by calling for Japan to surrender and telling the Military to take a flying leap.
History is not black and white, and we can't hold the past accountable against today's laws. We can only learn from the past, and hold actions today accountable according to today's laws.
Anyways we should probably go back to the subject at hand since we're kinda off in left field.
#LegalizeAwoo
A normie goes "Oh, what's this?"
An otaku goes "UwU, what's this?"
A furry goes "OwO, what's this?"
A werewolf goes "Awoo, what's this?"
"It's nothing personal, I just don't feel like I've gotten to know a person until I've sniffed their crotch."
"We said 'no' to Mr. Curiosity. We're not home. Curiosity is not welcome, it is not to be invited in. Curiosity...is bad. It gets you in trouble, it gets you killed, and more importantly...it makes you poor!"
Yes, this. Things were different back then, not just because of technology but the context of the times. Mistakes caused retaliation in Europe. In the Pacific, the Japanese would routinely prove to be a dishonorable foe by fake surrendering, killing medics, POWs, while generally fighting to the last man (remember the story about the guy in the Philippines who wouldn't surrender for 40 something years?) to say nothing of the Japanese war crimes against civilian populations (Nanking?)
Also what people probably don't know about is that the US was dropping leaflets to the civilians, warning them that cities were targeted for firebombing and they should leave. This didn't happen to warn Hiroshima, however, but after Hiroshima, regular radio messages repeated warnings of more atom bomb attacks if they didn't surrender. And that was the entire goal of the bombing campaigns, to cause such complete devastation that the Japanese people knew they could not stand up against it, that their only option was to surrender or be annihilated.
I think its important to understand that context, because this was a people that were willing to fight to the last and do absolutely anything to win. What were the actual options?
How did the firebombing go in Germany? Or the nightly bombing raids on London, Birmingham, Belfast, Coventry, Manchester, et al. How quickly did the Germans/UK buckle under the pressure of massed strategic bombing raids?
Oh, that's right. They didn't. Because all the mass bombings actually achieved by terrorising the civilian population was to galvanise resistance against the enemy.
Trials of Blood and Fire
Moving On Parts 1-3 - Part 4
In Cold Blood
In effect, it was the ultimate terror weapon. And the invention of the hydrogen fusion bomb less than a decade later fueled the "need" for a cold war between the only two superpowers at the time, because both sides knew that if their conflict went hot it would kill everyone. (This was maintained due to a belief on each side that if they relaxed their posture, the other would take advantage of the opportunity to defeat their foe while only killing half the planet.)
We're actually fortunate that the Third Reich surrendered when it did, because originally Little Boy had been slated for Berlin.
#LegalizeAwoo
A normie goes "Oh, what's this?"
An otaku goes "UwU, what's this?"
A furry goes "OwO, what's this?"
A werewolf goes "Awoo, what's this?"
"It's nothing personal, I just don't feel like I've gotten to know a person until I've sniffed their crotch."
"We said 'no' to Mr. Curiosity. We're not home. Curiosity is not welcome, it is not to be invited in. Curiosity...is bad. It gets you in trouble, it gets you killed, and more importantly...it makes you poor!"
Any wonder why teens and folks in their 20's during the 60's were wondering if they'd even be alive at age 30?
Nukes are one of the WORST things we EVER invented. We don't need them...all they do is WRECK the planet, and imagine what occurs to places, things and lifeforms living in other dimensions, in the same space we detonate all these horrible things.
Back to topic, Kurtzman needs to go and find some other series to wreck, or do something original on his own.
With Lower Decks, like JJ had little to do with Beyond, Kurtzman seems to have little to do with Lower Decks, since it feels like fans make this. McMann's doing pretty good.
Actually...surviving Japanese records indicate the Japanese were well aware of the US nuclear programme, and in fact the IJA had estimated US production of atomic weapons at no more than 2 bombs every month (which was something of an overestimate as it turned out). In other words, the Japanese government had a pretty good idea that the US couldn't sustain a continued rate of nuclear bombardment - certainly not before the scheduled start date of Operation Downfall (the Allied invasion of Japan). It was the capture of a US fighter pilot, who "informed" his captors that the US had a stockpile of "100s" of a-bombs which moved enough of the Japanese cabinet to accept surrender. That information was only given to the cabinet at 1430, after the main figures of the cabinet had already debated the bombing and failed to establish a majority for surrender.
Trials of Blood and Fire
Moving On Parts 1-3 - Part 4
In Cold Blood
Considering the fact that no nukes have been used in war since, pretty much everyone knows that it is literally Mutually Assured Destruction. No one wins when the big bombs come out. The only nation I would really worry about having nukes right now is North Korea. They don't care whatsoever, as long as they can threaten nations that had them for decades. They may want the ability to destroy a city, but pretty much everyone around them has the ability to wipe them off the face of the Earth. And they don't care.
As for other dimensions... we simply do not know. At the same time... we don't know if what they do affects us either. They may be detonating antimatter warheads for all we know. Trying to cite other dimensions as an argument... when we have no scientific evidence, is not really an argument that can be grounded in fact. Its speculation that can be used unaltered to argue against literally ANYTHING. Even me typing this out could be considered bad because who knows... maybe some alternate version of me is sitting here at the same exact moment with a headache because I'm typing on my keyboard... which makes no sense whatsoever.
That don't do anything....just more like the hillbilly who reaches for his shotgun each time he sees someone walking down the road, "GIT OVA M' PROPERTEE!" sorta thing. And it's the United States, who has THOUSANDS of nukes, I am worried about, not Korea.
We don't need nukes, period. Mankind has more than enough toys to destroy himself without nukes. Time to make technology to HELP and SAVE lives...not to take them, or destroy lands.
And seeing the ancient city of Mohenjo daro, which something HORRIBLE happened.....skeletons seen as if they were running from something, holding hands.....and being radio active, as well as vitrified stones and brick.....SOMETHING really weird happened, and makes me believe the Indian sandscripts, which read like a sci fi novel, are true.
Obviously those didn't work very well. Hindsight is sure useful isn't it? Still, what would have happened if those bombings didn't happen? We can't ever know. We seem to see no value targeting civilians today, nor do we need to thanks to technology, so I'd say the lesson is learned.
Keep in mind though, there were assassination attempts on Hitler, his people were not all on board with the plan, and on the other side, a more democratic country has public pressure to deal with. So lets not pretend that there isn't a break point for a populace. And in Japan's case, it turns out they only needed to break one man, and that very likely saved the lives of millions more.
Hell... TOS wasn't consistent with itself... *shrug*
Not only that... ship based phasers can be set to stun?
#LegalizeAwoo
A normie goes "Oh, what's this?"
An otaku goes "UwU, what's this?"
A furry goes "OwO, what's this?"
A werewolf goes "Awoo, what's this?"
"It's nothing personal, I just don't feel like I've gotten to know a person until I've sniffed their crotch."
"We said 'no' to Mr. Curiosity. We're not home. Curiosity is not welcome, it is not to be invited in. Curiosity...is bad. It gets you in trouble, it gets you killed, and more importantly...it makes you poor!"
Honestly I'd kinda believe another Pompei like event over ancient nukes right now without hard evidence.
#LegalizeAwoo
A normie goes "Oh, what's this?"
An otaku goes "UwU, what's this?"
A furry goes "OwO, what's this?"
A werewolf goes "Awoo, what's this?"
"It's nothing personal, I just don't feel like I've gotten to know a person until I've sniffed their crotch."
"We said 'no' to Mr. Curiosity. We're not home. Curiosity is not welcome, it is not to be invited in. Curiosity...is bad. It gets you in trouble, it gets you killed, and more importantly...it makes you poor!"