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Lex Kurtman Says Writing Team Building A Very Surprising Section 31 Star Trek Series
lordgyor
Member Posts: 2,820 Arc User
in Ten Forward
https://trekmovie.com/2020/08/26/alex-kurtman-says-writing-team-building-a-very-surprising-section-31-star-trek-series/
It appears Section 31 is far from dead after all.
It appears Section 31 is far from dead after all.
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The way S31 was represented in Discovery, it was garbage.
It was too difficult for the creators to even grasp the most basic fact about the organisation (that it was secret!).
They literally failed to understand either that core characteristic or the meaning of the very word 'secret'.
Doesn't have much to do with being vocal, toxic or the series being new or anything. Bad writing is bad writing and they deserve to be criticised for that.
[3/25 10:41][Combat (Self)]Your Haymaker deals 26187 (10692) Physical Damage(Critical) to Orinoco.
That is not dead which can eternal lie, And with strange aeons even death may die...
In the 22nd and 24th Centuries they were. But it seems in the 23rd it was integrated into Starfleet Intelligence, focusing on Black Ops. While Captain Pike recognized the Black Badge as S31, no one else did. When Burnham was first brought aboard Discovery, one of the other prisoners noted the black badges, not recognizing it at all. Leads me to believe that knowledge of S31 was limited, probably to at least Captain level. Kinda like Omega Directive.
And after the whole Control fiasco its entirely possible that S31 started to slink back into the shadows where it would become the S31 we remember from DS9.
We're talking over 200 years of history. I wouldn't be surprised if S31 at one point had tried to be more of an official organization alongside Starfleet Intelligence rather than the shadow organization we know.
Except they were already a secret organisation in the era of ST: Enterprise.
It makes no sense to keep switching. An identity isn't something you can just build up, destroy and then rebuild again. Certainly not when that identity revolves around people not knowing about your existence...
Besides, even a 'normal' intelligence officer would exercise more discretion than these clowns who go around, proudly parading their affiliation, only trying to impress with their status as an intel officer.
[3/25 10:41][Combat (Self)]Your Haymaker deals 26187 (10692) Physical Damage(Critical) to Orinoco.
And again... it seems that not everyone in DSC era is aware of S31. Its almost as secret as Omega. Limited to certain individuals.
Before we only saw one or two operatives, never really any idea as to the scope of the organization. In DSC we saw that they had resources enough to build ships and experiment with new technologies, one of which wouldn't be seen until the mid 24th Century.
Where would S31 get all these resources? They would have to have some kind of connection to Starfleet. Best option would be Starfleet Intelligence. And the Control Incident hurt the organization big time. It was dang near wiped out.
The way I see it, S31 started its life right at the beginning of Starfleet, but stuck to the shadows, recruiting operatives from within Starfleet, like Lt. Reed. Then at some point in the 23rd Century, probably enough time has past that they could become a legit organization. SI would be the most logical choice, and allow S31 to basically be the Federation's version of 00 agents. Deep Black Ops. They don't exist.
Then Control happened.
Ash had to rebuild the entire organization after that. Perhaps he decided after some research that S31 had to go back into the shadows. Become the boogyman it once was. Eventually becoming the S31 we know from DS9.
And again... knowledge of S31 was limited to select officers, like Admiral Ross. A closely guarded secret as big as the Omega Directive.
Hell... for all we know... the whole Kitomer Incident involving General Change in ST6 might have been part of a major S31 op. After all... we're talking a chance to bring the entire Klingon Empire to its knees. The Empire was considered a major threat, and S31 specializes in "dealing" with threats. Chang hated the prospect of Peace with the Federation, S31 wanted to weaken the Empire through a legit war when it was at its weakest, and the Romulans would probably have benefitted from a weakened Klingon Empire, probably in absorbing some territory while the Federation and Empire fought. So... everyone would have gotten what they wanted... if not for that meddling James T Kirk and the USS Enterprise-A.
Rather than just blasting it for not being the exact same as it was in DS9, how about theorycraft a reason for it all. I find it hard to believe that in over 200 years Section 31 has NOT changed in ANY capacity whatsoever.
Burnham never made it past the rank of Commander and she knew about it. Admirals were talking about the organisation over long distances (probably not the most secure thing to do). Captain Pike knew about it whereas Sisko and Archer didn't.
It is, in no way, secret. Nothing indicates that it is only known to a handful of people when basically all major characters we see in this series, know about it whereas major characters in other series didn't (besides those actively recruited by them).
I don't know? Maybe they were made up by some lazy writer who didn't care to explain this and the changes in transparency? Maybe because they wanted everyone to be as impressed as Michael is when seeing Georgiou's badge?
It's just speculation, really. The facts are that S31 operates more in the open and that they behaved nothing like they did before DSC (in ENT) and after that (DS9). It is a completely different organisation and the origin of those differences aren't explained. The only thing matching during their different appearances, is the name.
All this would be fine if it were explained. But it isn't. And that means it's badly written. You also don't completely change a character or make him the exact opposite without explaining why that has happened.
Again, it's all pure speculation. And it's not canon either (as some people seem to care about that too). They should put in some effort to at least explain the discrepancies to some extent. Until then, it's bad writing imo.
I'm not blasting the fact that it has changed. I'm blasting the fact that those changes aren't made part of a well developed story that shows us these changes happening gradually or at least some of the explaining factors.
'Change' in itself is not an excuse. If they suddenly made the Federation hate diversity (which is as much a defining characteristic of it as secrecy was for S31, I'd argue) and make them as racist as the Terran Empire or Romulans, with everyone except humans being treated as second-class citizens or worse... wouldn't you expect some explanation in that case?
Changing things is fine. But a good writer (so, at least someone who knows what he's writing about) tries to ensure that that change is an integral part of the story (we call it 'character development' when applied to specific characters for instance) and so on. It shouldn't just appear out of the blue.
Change can make stories more interesting, and that's exactly what it should do when it occurs: it should be used to further the story already told.
[3/25 10:41][Combat (Self)]Your Haymaker deals 26187 (10692) Physical Damage(Critical) to Orinoco.
The writers in this game generally do a better job at tying up loose ends than - admittedly - ST writers in general managed.
[3/25 10:41][Combat (Self)]Your Haymaker deals 26187 (10692) Physical Damage(Critical) to Orinoco.
Secret organizations don't have their guards wearing a special insignia. Special insignias or uniforms brings unwanted attention to the secret organization. With the black badge, Section 31 was far more out in the open than the Omega Directive ever was.
#LegalizeAwoo
A normie goes "Oh, what's this?"
An otaku goes "UwU, what's this?"
A furry goes "OwO, what's this?"
A werewolf goes "Awoo, what's this?"
"It's nothing personal, I just don't feel like I've gotten to know a person until I've sniffed their crotch."
"We said 'no' to Mr. Curiosity. We're not home. Curiosity is not welcome, it is not to be invited in. Curiosity...is bad. It gets you in trouble, it gets you killed, and more importantly...it makes you poor!"
Either MI6 is trying to get Bond killed or Bond is a distraction to protect the other MI6 agents.
#LegalizeAwoo
A normie goes "Oh, what's this?"
An otaku goes "UwU, what's this?"
A furry goes "OwO, what's this?"
A werewolf goes "Awoo, what's this?"
"It's nothing personal, I just don't feel like I've gotten to know a person until I've sniffed their crotch."
"We said 'no' to Mr. Curiosity. We're not home. Curiosity is not welcome, it is not to be invited in. Curiosity...is bad. It gets you in trouble, it gets you killed, and more importantly...it makes you poor!"
I never said it was canon. And yes it is speculation. However its speculation in an attempt to explain this in a plausible way.
I'm a bit of a fanfic writer so sometimes I have some fun trying to come up with in universe explanations.
Now... as for the "random admirals"... if I remember s2 of Discovery correctly, it was implied those admirals were either part of or were overseeing Section 31. Hence why Control killed them and posed as them in communications. Pike knowing about them... he was friends with a member of S31, and I got the sense that they may have crossed paths in the past when Leeland was on an op.
All I'm doing is taking what I know, and attempting to connect dots in a way that makes sense.
"Logic is an integral part of narrative structure. According to the Dictates of Poetics by T'hain of Vulcan, a character's actions must flow inexorably from his or her established traits"
Do what you will with this information. I just wanted to add that quote to see what it would provide for the conversation.
Don't know him, never cared much for it until now. So I can't comment on that.
[3/25 10:41][Combat (Self)]Your Haymaker deals 26187 (10692) Physical Damage(Critical) to Orinoco.
Which version? I admit I'm partial to Brosnan Bond, since that's the one I grew up with.
It is quite possible that they all end up back in the 2250s, especially if Burnham find the "domino" change she was looking for from something that happens in S3. Or maybe Georgiou finds some way to get around the problem not being able to use the suit (hopefully not though, that would be so hackneyed it would have embarrassed even the Flash Gordon serial writers).
Bond was known by reutationin the intelligence community of both sides, though few knew what he looked like even then. And he didn't casually tell random people he was an agent, everyone he told were already involved in some way and needed to know.
Come on, even the CIA could see through that!
And I don't know about where you're from, but around here "Bond" isn't a common name - it's not like he was introducing himself as "Johnson. Pat Johnson." You're not going to hear his name and think, "Huh. Same name as that spy the boss wanted us to watch out for. What a strange coincidence!" He did what he did because of story convention, not realism.
There is of course, always wiggle room for diverse interpretations, but frankly Kurtzman and company through the whole baby out with the bathwater and they get their panties in a bunch whenever somebody calls them out for having done so. If The Orville can do that type of series and still be fun and interesting, then Alex and his off base efforts have little excuse; but to each his own.
Picard was a curiosity and I would be interested in seeing where they go in a second season. I had and have zero interest in the Lower Decks cartoon, but again to each his own. I also genuinely hope that the third season of Discovery is its last. The less that we see of that show is better.
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That Lower Decks appeals to so many that were disappointed by Picard or Discovery is almost certainly not just a coincidence. They wanted to make different Star Trek series, appealing to different people. They don't care if one series doesn't work for some Star Trek fans, as long as it still appeals to some others, plus potentially a new audience of people that weren't fans before but are becoming one now.
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I am pretty sure they did the "control" thing (besides a way to justify kicking DSC to the future) to create a vacuum at the top of S31 organization to get out of the obvious corner they wrote themselves into.
If they play their cards right they could have S31 temporarily go strait and act more like Starfleet Intelligence until they can dig in and disappear again. A sort of "Mission Impossible" (the old series version, not the action hero movies of the same name) analog could actually be good if they write it well enough (not that I trust Kurtzman's bunch to be able to write with enough subtlety to make it work) and could provide a good contrast to SNW if they do not get too over-the-top dark and nasty.
Of course, their idea of "drama" seems to be taken from boardroom backstabbing style soaps so they probably will continue their S2 shallow but melodramatic style like nothing happened, or make it even sudsier and darker.
...it's going to be a spy spoof along the lines of Get Smart! With Kristen Stewart as Agent 99!
I always felt Section 31 was GARBAGE from the start.
Never understood why there is stigma for an animated series.
Worked for Batman. And in Japan, animated is a highly respected art form, and most anime I seen far outdoes anything here in the west.
Lower Decks, apart from Beyond, is the FIRST Star Trek I have seen in the past 15 years, that I've actually LIKED and ENJOYED.