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The Inquiry class(Riker's ship) from Picard is coming to a promo-pack near you!

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  • fleetcaptain5#1134 fleetcaptain5 Member Posts: 2,978 Arc User
    And, imo, whether or not they follow some precedent or rule, isn't even the most important thing.

    The past is the past and we shouldn't get stuck there.

    The relevant question to ask, if you ask me, is whether it is, here, now, in the future, acceptable / a good idea to keep putting ships in boxes that most players will never bother with or be able to afford.


    Just to emphasise again: these things cost over $200. That's the price you're expected to pay for single item, in a computer game. Even things in this same game that are account-bound are cheaper, or just as expensive (in the case of the Lifer subscription).

    I generally agree that what's done is done and there isn't much point debating the past except to correct anyone who is saying something that isn't true.

    But to your second point I think they will eventually go too far. I'm not sure when it will happen or what the specific case will be, but eventually they are going to cause enough ill-will that the ship in question isn't going to sell well and they will have to re-think their marketing strategy.

    That said, hopefully if the right laws are passed in the right places they will be forced to make a change before having to deal with the above hypothetical scenario.

    I'm hoping for the same. A line must be drawn somewhere and if people are really as offended as they seem (on Reddit, Twitter and so on as well) then this may just be it. Or not. We'll see.
    [4:46] [Combat {self}] Your Haymaker deals 23337 (9049) Physical Damage(Critical) to Spawnmother

    [3/25 10:41][Combat (Self)]Your Haymaker deals 26187 (10692) Physical Damage(Critical) to Orinoco.
  • thegrandnagus1thegrandnagus1 Member Posts: 4,936 Arc User
    edited September 2020
    Well, not all ships that don't meet all of those criteria were put in a box.

    That's not what I'm talking about, at all. I'm not talking about ships that were NOT put in boxes. I'm talking about ship that were. And no ship that meets all of those points has (key word) ever been put in a box prior to the Inquiry.

    I know.

    But a rule doesn't say much if it doesn't cover all cases (ie., if it's not applied exhaustively).

    To be clear, the "rule" I'm referring to is about the ships IN the boxes, not what ships they decide to put in the store for various reasons. And the "rule" that I'm referring to, in the context I'm talking about, has never been broken until the Inquiry.

    I'm not trying to debate semantics, but just to be clear on what I'm actually saying. There is NO exception to the "rule" I'm talking about in regards to the ships they actually put IN boxes, until the Inquiry.

    The-Grand-Nagus
    Join Date: Sep 2008

    og9Zoh0.jpg
  • thegrandnagus1thegrandnagus1 Member Posts: 4,936 Arc User
    To use an admittedly imperfect illustration: some restaurants have a dress code. If you do not meet that dress code, you cannot enter/dine. However that code does not prevent people who are dressed up from leaving when they are finished. So a rule can certainly be "one way".

    The "rule" (no normal faction ships in lockboxes) is "one way". It prevented (ships meeting the criteria I listed) from going in boxes. It did not prevent weird/alien/whatever ships from being sold outside of boxes, if they choose to do so. I hope that is clear, and there is no need to debate the point when there is literally no exception to even use an example (prior to Inquiry).

    The-Grand-Nagus
    Join Date: Sep 2008

    og9Zoh0.jpg
  • doctorstegidoctorstegi Member Posts: 807 Arc User
    ltminns wrote: »
    Sorry folks but the Amarie, a Promo Ship, has been in Mudd's Market as part of the Picard Bundle.

    Nope the Amarie is not part of the Picard bundle that is the Miradorn Raider. Though the Armarie is purchasable through the C-Store and yes it is a promo box ship or was however you wanna look at it.
    C-Store Inc. is still looking for active members on the fed side. If you don't have a fleet feel free to contact me in game @stegi.
  • ltminnsltminns Member Posts: 12,462 Arc User
    edited September 2020
    Sorry, Mixed it up, it was part of Mudd's Stealing Time Bundle.
    'But to be logical is not to be right', and 'nothing' on God's earth could ever 'make it' right!'
    Judge Dan Haywood
    'As l speak now, the words are forming in my head.
    l don't know.
    l really don't know what l'm about to say, except l have a feeling about it.
    That l must repeat the words that come without my knowledge.'
    Lt. Philip J. Minns
  • disposeableh3r0disposeableh3r0 Member Posts: 1,920 Arc User
    unknown.png?width=726&height=408
    I stole it from reddit
    As a time traveller, Am I supposed to pack underwear or underwhen?

    Not everything you see on the internet is true - Abraham Lincoln

    Occidere populo et effercio confractus
  • theanothernametheanothername Member Posts: 1,481 Arc User
    And, imo, whether or not they follow some precedent or rule, isn't even the most important thing.

    The past is the past and we shouldn't get stuck there.

    The relevant question to ask, if you ask me, is whether it is, here, now, in the future, acceptable / a good idea to keep putting ships in boxes that most players will never bother with or be able to afford.


    Just to emphasise again: these things cost over $200. That's the price you're expected to pay for single item, in a computer game. Even things in this same game that are account-bound are cheaper, or just as expensive (in the case of the Lifer subscription).

    I generally agree that what's done is done and there isn't much point debating the past except to correct anyone who is saying something that isn't true.

    But to your second point I think they will eventually go too far. I'm not sure when it will happen or what the specific case will be, but eventually they are going to cause enough ill-will that the ship in question isn't going to sell well and they will have to re-think their marketing strategy.

    That said, hopefully if the right laws are passed in the right places they will be forced to make a change before having to deal with the above hypothetical scenario.

    I'm hoping for the same. A line must be drawn somewhere and if people are really as offended as they seem (on Reddit, Twitter and so on as well) then this may just be it. Or not. We'll see.

    That line is the point why a lot of people that still bother voice their disappointment. As been pointed out it was already drawn and this promo crossed it clear and loud. Nobody would believe Cryptic coming out now somehow defending this and making some loud mouth promises about some rules they will keep from now on.

    Looking at their interaction (or rather lack of it) around it its pretty clear that they are embarrassed about it themselves. Sadly its most likely the wrong people being ashamed about their company (...kind of evident because otherwise we would not even have this promo but rather laughing our behinds off about what ugly ship had been released to the cstore).
  • jonsillsjonsills Member Posts: 9,599 Arc User
    jonsills wrote: »
    The rule for how things are sold or given away in this game is simple: What will make the most money for Cryptic?

    I know this comes as a surprise to some of you, but Cryptic Studios is a business. They have to pay for the facility they occupy; they have to pay for their internet connectivity; they have to pay for the server farm, such as it is; they have to pay salaries to all of their employees, whether programmers, artists, or the guy who sweeps up after everyone leaves; and I can only have nightmares about their electric bills.

    If you want things to happen in STO, they have to make money. Sometimes they will make money in a fashion of which you personally disapprove. If enough people disapprove of it, profit will not be made, and the method will change. If it continues, that means they're making money on it, not that they dislike you personally.

    If all of this disappoints you, by all means, work however you can to move our society past a scarcity economy. I will do everything in my rather limited power to support your efforts! Until then, though, the situation is as it is. We don't actually live in Star Trek, we just play there.

    I know this may come as a surprise, but there is actually no need for scarcity to be involved when dealing with virtual assets.
    I know this may come as a surprise, but Cryptic exists in our plane of reality, not in Star Trek, and corporate facilities are still run using a scarcity-based economy. Nobody's just giving Cryptic the resources they need to operate. And as long as this is true, they need to make money however they can, and to Gre'thor with any of these silly "rules" people think have been "broken".

    Don't like it? Don't buy it - I'm not going to, I think the ship's only slightly less unsightly than a Breen cruiser. But the situation on the ground is that their financial analysts, with access to more and better data on the playerbase and the operational costs than we have, concluded that this was the way to go. But so far we're up to eight fracking pages of people whining about how they're "insulted" and this "breaks the rules". (Spoiler: I checked the ToS, and there's nothing in there about how they're allowed to sell their own assets. Only thing there on the topic is that we're not allowed to exchange their assets for real-world money, and we're only allowed to exchange our real-world money for their assets if they're involved.)
    Lorna-Wing-sig.png
  • trennantrennan Member Posts: 2,839 Arc User
    jonsills wrote: »
    jonsills wrote: »
    The rule for how things are sold or given away in this game is simple: What will make the most money for Cryptic?

    I know this comes as a surprise to some of you, but Cryptic Studios is a business. They have to pay for the facility they occupy; they have to pay for their internet connectivity; they have to pay for the server farm, such as it is; they have to pay salaries to all of their employees, whether programmers, artists, or the guy who sweeps up after everyone leaves; and I can only have nightmares about their electric bills.

    If you want things to happen in STO, they have to make money. Sometimes they will make money in a fashion of which you personally disapprove. If enough people disapprove of it, profit will not be made, and the method will change. If it continues, that means they're making money on it, not that they dislike you personally.

    If all of this disappoints you, by all means, work however you can to move our society past a scarcity economy. I will do everything in my rather limited power to support your efforts! Until then, though, the situation is as it is. We don't actually live in Star Trek, we just play there.

    I know this may come as a surprise, but there is actually no need for scarcity to be involved when dealing with virtual assets.
    I know this may come as a surprise, but Cryptic exists in our plane of reality, not in Star Trek, and corporate facilities are still run using a scarcity-based economy. Nobody's just giving Cryptic the resources they need to operate. And as long as this is true, they need to make money however they can, and to Gre'thor with any of these silly "rules" people think have been "broken".

    Don't like it? Don't buy it - I'm not going to, I think the ship's only slightly less unsightly than a Breen cruiser. But the situation on the ground is that their financial analysts, with access to more and better data on the playerbase and the operational costs than we have, concluded that this was the way to go. But so far we're up to eight fracking pages of people whining about how they're "insulted" and this "breaks the rules". (Spoiler: I checked the ToS, and there's nothing in there about how they're allowed to sell their own assets. Only thing there on the topic is that we're not allowed to exchange their assets for real-world money, and we're only allowed to exchange our real-world money for their assets if they're involved.)

    If Cryptic was really intent on making money. Then they'd be better off moving away from account-wide unlocks. For example, leaving the event stuff as account unlocks, and making everything else character unlocks. Granted, this would mean reducing the prices of ships and such in the c-store. But then, 3000zen for a ship that 50 characters can use versus 50, 1000zen ships. The profit margin is actually greater on the per character purchase.

    If they made this change, their profits would likely go up. They'd have to grandfather in that any account-wide purchases made before the change remained that way, and any purchases after the change would be character unlocks. The admiralty card can remain account-wide, it's a system designed for the hardcore dil farmers any how.

    The bundle packs would remain account-unlocks as well. But, it would have to be in a manner of, you can only get these ships from this pack. You can't acquire the account-wide unlock of each ship outside of said pack. You can still purchase them singularly for a single character though.

    Mm5NeXy.gif
  • redwren89redwren89 Member Posts: 257 Arc User
    edited September 2020
    Hi Cryptic, I know you don't read this, but I'll do you the pleasure of leaving a message anyway.

    I have never bought a gamble box ship in the 8 years I've played, and I never intend to.

    You have, yet again, lost my custom on this occasion.
  • mustrumridcully0mustrumridcully0 Member Posts: 12,952 Arc User
    I read someone on reddit that said: "I would be willing to pay 50 $ a year if that included all promotional ships and lockboxes". Someone else suggested it would be worth 100 $.
    These figures are about half to the full cost of a yearly MMO subscription (based on World of Warcraft and The Old Republic MMO).

    The subscription model for STO failed, which is why they switched to F2P and their lockbox (and later promotion) model.
    Without the F2p model, at least one of these two would find STO to expensive in the first place to even play.

    And of course just a single promo or lockbox ship will easily cost you 200 US $.

    Overall, all that is the whole deal - one guy playing a F2P game and buying a promo ship finances several other players that pay nothing at all.

    Of course, all this doesn't say much about whether a ship like the Inquiry should be a lockbox or promotional or a C-Store ship. But if we see more canon ships that are era and time line appropriate as promotional or lockbox or promotional ships in the future, Cryptic might simply want to earn more money - or the promo and lockbox sales for non-canon ships are slowing down.
    Star Trek Online Advancement: You start with lowbie gear, you end with Lobi gear.
  • fallenkezef#4581 fallenkezef Member Posts: 642 Arc User
    So to recap.

    It's supposed to be the ship from Picard but is just a reskinned avenger with a shiny op trait in a game where you can clear any and all content in a T5? Put in a lockbox that will cost around £200?

    They think many people will actualy buy this?
  • fleetcaptain5#1134 fleetcaptain5 Member Posts: 2,978 Arc User
    jonsills wrote: »
    jonsills wrote: »
    The rule for how things are sold or given away in this game is simple: What will make the most money for Cryptic?

    I know this comes as a surprise to some of you, but Cryptic Studios is a business. They have to pay for the facility they occupy; they have to pay for their internet connectivity; they have to pay for the server farm, such as it is; they have to pay salaries to all of their employees, whether programmers, artists, or the guy who sweeps up after everyone leaves; and I can only have nightmares about their electric bills.

    If you want things to happen in STO, they have to make money. Sometimes they will make money in a fashion of which you personally disapprove. If enough people disapprove of it, profit will not be made, and the method will change. If it continues, that means they're making money on it, not that they dislike you personally.

    If all of this disappoints you, by all means, work however you can to move our society past a scarcity economy. I will do everything in my rather limited power to support your efforts! Until then, though, the situation is as it is. We don't actually live in Star Trek, we just play there.

    I know this may come as a surprise, but there is actually no need for scarcity to be involved when dealing with virtual assets.
    I know this may come as a surprise, but Cryptic exists in our plane of reality, not in Star Trek, and corporate facilities are still run using a scarcity-based economy. Nobody's just giving Cryptic the resources they need to operate. And as long as this is true, they need to make money however they can, and to Gre'thor with any of these silly "rules" people think have been "broken".

    Don't like it? Don't buy it - I'm not going to, I think the ship's only slightly less unsightly than a Breen cruiser. But the situation on the ground is that their financial analysts, with access to more and better data on the playerbase and the operational costs than we have, concluded that this was the way to go. But so far we're up to eight fracking pages of people whining about how they're "insulted" and this "breaks the rules". (Spoiler: I checked the ToS, and there's nothing in there about how they're allowed to sell their own assets. Only thing there on the topic is that we're not allowed to exchange their assets for real-world money, and we're only allowed to exchange our real-world money for their assets if they're involved.)

    I know this may come as a surprise, but you're not really telling surprising stuff.

    Feel free to think you've just shared some fascinating insight however.
    [4:46] [Combat {self}] Your Haymaker deals 23337 (9049) Physical Damage(Critical) to Spawnmother

    [3/25 10:41][Combat (Self)]Your Haymaker deals 26187 (10692) Physical Damage(Critical) to Orinoco.
  • fleetcaptain5#1134 fleetcaptain5 Member Posts: 2,978 Arc User
    I read someone on reddit that said: "I would be willing to pay 50 $ a year if that included all promotional ships and lockboxes". Someone else suggested it would be worth 100 $.
    These figures are about half to the full cost of a yearly MMO subscription (based on World of Warcraft and The Old Republic MMO).

    The subscription model for STO failed, which is why they switched to F2P and their lockbox (and later promotion) model.
    Without the F2p model, at least one of these two would find STO to expensive in the first place to even play.

    And of course just a single promo or lockbox ship will easily cost you 200 US $.

    Overall, all that is the whole deal - one guy playing a F2P game and buying a promo ship finances several other players that pay nothing at all.

    Of course, all this doesn't say much about whether a ship like the Inquiry should be a lockbox or promotional or a C-Store ship. But if we see more canon ships that are era and time line appropriate as promotional or lockbox or promotional ships in the future, Cryptic might simply want to earn more money - or the promo and lockbox sales for non-canon ships are slowing down.

    Trying to find the middle of the road would be more reasonable to everyone involved though. Instead of hoping for one person to pay $200, you might try to find seven people paying $30.

    If they can't find those 7 people for every 1 person crazy enough to pay $200 everytime they release a promo ship, then perhaps they need to start wonder why that is - why many people are not prepared to pay a small price regularly to support this game.

    Either way, this is not sustainable. The signs are everywhere: bugs aren't getting fixed, content is recycled to create a 'new' event around it, they don't even dare showing up at their own Forum anymore, there are connection problems that may not be solved. Even simple things like calendars and patch notes are now disappearing.


    (Yes, I know. People have been crying 'doom!' for years. The difference here is that I'm doing it for the first time in 8 or 9 years.)
    [4:46] [Combat {self}] Your Haymaker deals 23337 (9049) Physical Damage(Critical) to Spawnmother

    [3/25 10:41][Combat (Self)]Your Haymaker deals 26187 (10692) Physical Damage(Critical) to Orinoco.
  • foxrockssocksfoxrockssocks Member Posts: 2,461 Arc User
    trennan wrote: »
    jonsills wrote: »
    jonsills wrote: »
    The rule for how things are sold or given away in this game is simple: What will make the most money for Cryptic?

    I know this comes as a surprise to some of you, but Cryptic Studios is a business. They have to pay for the facility they occupy; they have to pay for their internet connectivity; they have to pay for the server farm, such as it is; they have to pay salaries to all of their employees, whether programmers, artists, or the guy who sweeps up after everyone leaves; and I can only have nightmares about their electric bills.

    If you want things to happen in STO, they have to make money. Sometimes they will make money in a fashion of which you personally disapprove. If enough people disapprove of it, profit will not be made, and the method will change. If it continues, that means they're making money on it, not that they dislike you personally.

    If all of this disappoints you, by all means, work however you can to move our society past a scarcity economy. I will do everything in my rather limited power to support your efforts! Until then, though, the situation is as it is. We don't actually live in Star Trek, we just play there.

    I know this may come as a surprise, but there is actually no need for scarcity to be involved when dealing with virtual assets.
    I know this may come as a surprise, but Cryptic exists in our plane of reality, not in Star Trek, and corporate facilities are still run using a scarcity-based economy. Nobody's just giving Cryptic the resources they need to operate. And as long as this is true, they need to make money however they can, and to Gre'thor with any of these silly "rules" people think have been "broken".

    Don't like it? Don't buy it - I'm not going to, I think the ship's only slightly less unsightly than a Breen cruiser. But the situation on the ground is that their financial analysts, with access to more and better data on the playerbase and the operational costs than we have, concluded that this was the way to go. But so far we're up to eight fracking pages of people whining about how they're "insulted" and this "breaks the rules". (Spoiler: I checked the ToS, and there's nothing in there about how they're allowed to sell their own assets. Only thing there on the topic is that we're not allowed to exchange their assets for real-world money, and we're only allowed to exchange our real-world money for their assets if they're involved.)

    If Cryptic was really intent on making money. Then they'd be better off moving away from account-wide unlocks. For example, leaving the event stuff as account unlocks, and making everything else character unlocks. Granted, this would mean reducing the prices of ships and such in the c-store. But then, 3000zen for a ship that 50 characters can use versus 50, 1000zen ships. The profit margin is actually greater on the per character purchase.

    If they made this change, their profits would likely go up. They'd have to grandfather in that any account-wide purchases made before the change remained that way, and any purchases after the change would be character unlocks. The admiralty card can remain account-wide, it's a system designed for the hardcore dil farmers any how.

    The bundle packs would remain account-unlocks as well. But, it would have to be in a manner of, you can only get these ships from this pack. You can't acquire the account-wide unlock of each ship outside of said pack. You can still purchase them singularly for a single character though.

    I think you're ignoring the part of this equation where X number of people quit the game because the existing per character unlocks are already seen as too little value to bother with.
  • thegrandnagus1thegrandnagus1 Member Posts: 4,936 Arc User
    edited September 2020
    > @jonsills said: But so far we're up to eight fracking pages of people whining about how they're "insulted" and this "breaks the rules". (Spoiler: I checked the ToS, and there's nothing in there about how they're allowed to sell their own assets. Only thing there on the topic is that we're not allowed to exchange their assets for real-world money, and we're only allowed to exchange our real-world money for their assets if they're involved.)

    --------

    100% strawman nonsense. Absolutely no one has said this broke the TOS or any kind of game/contract rules.

    The only "rule" people are referring to is what the devs themselves explained years ago(and actually maintained for roughly 8 years). While "rule" may or may not be the right term to use, no one, and I mean no one, has even suggested it has anything to do with the game's TOS.

    So again, that is 100% strawman nonsense. The sad part is, you actually knew this. You are a smart/intelligent person and know no one is talking about the TOS, only what the devs said. Yet for some reason (maybe you can enlighten us?) you decided to pretend otherwise. It's just silly, and you know it.
    Post edited by thegrandnagus1 on

    The-Grand-Nagus
    Join Date: Sep 2008

    og9Zoh0.jpg
  • fred26291#2759 fred26291 Member Posts: 1,011 Arc User
    Lock box ships are great for those few that have money trees growing in their back yard.
    I for one do not, so I will never ever again try my hand at random boxes.
    I did 5 yrs ago and lost 2k in zen and got nothing worth 2k in zen, NEVER AGAIN!
  • trennantrennan Member Posts: 2,839 Arc User
    trennan wrote: »
    jonsills wrote: »
    jonsills wrote: »
    The rule for how things are sold or given away in this game is simple: What will make the most money for Cryptic?

    I know this comes as a surprise to some of you, but Cryptic Studios is a business. They have to pay for the facility they occupy; they have to pay for their internet connectivity; they have to pay for the server farm, such as it is; they have to pay salaries to all of their employees, whether programmers, artists, or the guy who sweeps up after everyone leaves; and I can only have nightmares about their electric bills.

    If you want things to happen in STO, they have to make money. Sometimes they will make money in a fashion of which you personally disapprove. If enough people disapprove of it, profit will not be made, and the method will change. If it continues, that means they're making money on it, not that they dislike you personally.

    If all of this disappoints you, by all means, work however you can to move our society past a scarcity economy. I will do everything in my rather limited power to support your efforts! Until then, though, the situation is as it is. We don't actually live in Star Trek, we just play there.

    I know this may come as a surprise, but there is actually no need for scarcity to be involved when dealing with virtual assets.
    I know this may come as a surprise, but Cryptic exists in our plane of reality, not in Star Trek, and corporate facilities are still run using a scarcity-based economy. Nobody's just giving Cryptic the resources they need to operate. And as long as this is true, they need to make money however they can, and to Gre'thor with any of these silly "rules" people think have been "broken".

    Don't like it? Don't buy it - I'm not going to, I think the ship's only slightly less unsightly than a Breen cruiser. But the situation on the ground is that their financial analysts, with access to more and better data on the playerbase and the operational costs than we have, concluded that this was the way to go. But so far we're up to eight fracking pages of people whining about how they're "insulted" and this "breaks the rules". (Spoiler: I checked the ToS, and there's nothing in there about how they're allowed to sell their own assets. Only thing there on the topic is that we're not allowed to exchange their assets for real-world money, and we're only allowed to exchange our real-world money for their assets if they're involved.)

    If Cryptic was really intent on making money. Then they'd be better off moving away from account-wide unlocks. For example, leaving the event stuff as account unlocks, and making everything else character unlocks. Granted, this would mean reducing the prices of ships and such in the c-store. But then, 3000zen for a ship that 50 characters can use versus 50, 1000zen ships. The profit margin is actually greater on the per character purchase.

    If they made this change, their profits would likely go up. They'd have to grandfather in that any account-wide purchases made before the change remained that way, and any purchases after the change would be character unlocks. The admiralty card can remain account-wide, it's a system designed for the hardcore dil farmers any how.

    The bundle packs would remain account-unlocks as well. But, it would have to be in a manner of, you can only get these ships from this pack. You can't acquire the account-wide unlock of each ship outside of said pack. You can still purchase them singularly for a single character though.

    I think you're ignoring the part of this equation where X number of people quit the game because the existing per character unlocks are already seen as too little value to bother with.

    No, not really ignoring it. The reason they have next to no value to most is simple. You can only sell keys and R&D packs from the c-store. If you could trade or sell everything, except ships with other players, then it would have value.

    Mm5NeXy.gif
  • ltminnsltminns Member Posts: 12,462 Arc User
    I have three T6 Promo Requisition Packs in Banks, including one from the first Promo Infinity. That one is in the Account Bank even though it is Bind to Character, that's how long it has been banked. Since I have those there is no need for me to try for another.

    I have gotten three other (4 if you count a Contest win), one opened for a Discovery Constitution for my Discovery Character, one Jem'Hader Strike Ship for my Jem'Hadar Character. The other two were 26th Century Ships that I sold. All in all I have found that getting a Promo Ship was more likely then a Lockbox Ship over the same time period.
    'But to be logical is not to be right', and 'nothing' on God's earth could ever 'make it' right!'
    Judge Dan Haywood
    'As l speak now, the words are forming in my head.
    l don't know.
    l really don't know what l'm about to say, except l have a feeling about it.
    That l must repeat the words that come without my knowledge.'
    Lt. Philip J. Minns
  • tmassxtmassx Member Posts: 798 Arc User
    If someone wants to buy this ugly skin for Avenger for the price of three new AAA games, why not?
  • foxrockssocksfoxrockssocks Member Posts: 2,461 Arc User
    trennan wrote: »
    trennan wrote: »
    jonsills wrote: »
    jonsills wrote: »
    The rule for how things are sold or given away in this game is simple: What will make the most money for Cryptic?

    I know this comes as a surprise to some of you, but Cryptic Studios is a business. They have to pay for the facility they occupy; they have to pay for their internet connectivity; they have to pay for the server farm, such as it is; they have to pay salaries to all of their employees, whether programmers, artists, or the guy who sweeps up after everyone leaves; and I can only have nightmares about their electric bills.

    If you want things to happen in STO, they have to make money. Sometimes they will make money in a fashion of which you personally disapprove. If enough people disapprove of it, profit will not be made, and the method will change. If it continues, that means they're making money on it, not that they dislike you personally.

    If all of this disappoints you, by all means, work however you can to move our society past a scarcity economy. I will do everything in my rather limited power to support your efforts! Until then, though, the situation is as it is. We don't actually live in Star Trek, we just play there.

    I know this may come as a surprise, but there is actually no need for scarcity to be involved when dealing with virtual assets.
    I know this may come as a surprise, but Cryptic exists in our plane of reality, not in Star Trek, and corporate facilities are still run using a scarcity-based economy. Nobody's just giving Cryptic the resources they need to operate. And as long as this is true, they need to make money however they can, and to Gre'thor with any of these silly "rules" people think have been "broken".

    Don't like it? Don't buy it - I'm not going to, I think the ship's only slightly less unsightly than a Breen cruiser. But the situation on the ground is that their financial analysts, with access to more and better data on the playerbase and the operational costs than we have, concluded that this was the way to go. But so far we're up to eight fracking pages of people whining about how they're "insulted" and this "breaks the rules". (Spoiler: I checked the ToS, and there's nothing in there about how they're allowed to sell their own assets. Only thing there on the topic is that we're not allowed to exchange their assets for real-world money, and we're only allowed to exchange our real-world money for their assets if they're involved.)

    If Cryptic was really intent on making money. Then they'd be better off moving away from account-wide unlocks. For example, leaving the event stuff as account unlocks, and making everything else character unlocks. Granted, this would mean reducing the prices of ships and such in the c-store. But then, 3000zen for a ship that 50 characters can use versus 50, 1000zen ships. The profit margin is actually greater on the per character purchase.

    If they made this change, their profits would likely go up. They'd have to grandfather in that any account-wide purchases made before the change remained that way, and any purchases after the change would be character unlocks. The admiralty card can remain account-wide, it's a system designed for the hardcore dil farmers any how.

    The bundle packs would remain account-unlocks as well. But, it would have to be in a manner of, you can only get these ships from this pack. You can't acquire the account-wide unlock of each ship outside of said pack. You can still purchase them singularly for a single character though.

    I think you're ignoring the part of this equation where X number of people quit the game because the existing per character unlocks are already seen as too little value to bother with.

    No, not really ignoring it. The reason they have next to no value to most is simple. You can only sell keys and R&D packs from the c-store. If you could trade or sell everything, except ships with other players, then it would have value.

    First, no where was that in your previous post. Second I don't buy it. What does selling items on the market have to do with the value of char unlock or account unlock items? Non sequiter.

    You can buy and sell box ships on the market, and I never buy them because they are single character unlocks. Seriously, I've had my eye on the temporal ships for years. The Wells/Verne look fantastic, as do the Romulan versions. But because I could never decide which character I'd want them on, I never bought them. Then they come out in a Mudd pack and I jumped on it.

    I find it wildly unreasonable to expect me to buy them multiple times. Give me an account option or no sale.

    Keep in mind they have been making changes towards this, not away from it, in the last year. Putting box ships into Mudd and other Cstore deals is offering account bound options for what were previously single char unlocks. They've also made (I think) the personnel tab of the Cstore into account unlocks.
  • lianthelialianthelia Member Posts: 7,628 Arc User
    edited September 2020
    And, imo, whether or not they follow some precedent or rule, isn't even the most important thing.

    The past is the past and we shouldn't get stuck there.

    The relevant question to ask, if you ask me, is whether it is, here, now, in the future, acceptable / a good idea to keep putting ships in boxes that most players will never bother with or be able to afford.


    Just to emphasise again: these things cost over $200. That's the price you're expected to pay for single item, in a computer game. Even things in this same game that are account-bound are cheaper, or just as expensive (in the case of the Lifer subscription).

    I generally agree that what's done is done and there isn't much point debating the past except to correct anyone who is saying something that isn't true.

    But to your second point I think they will eventually go too far. I'm not sure when it will happen or what the specific case will be, but eventually they are going to cause enough ill-will that the ship in question isn't going to sell well and they will have to re-think their marketing strategy.

    That said, hopefully if the right laws are passed in the right places they will be forced to make a change before having to deal with the above hypothetical scenario.

    I think you underestimate the whales...as long as the Devs keep putting out desirable ships the whales are still gonna buy it to sell. This kinda stuff doesn't affect them because they can literally afford to spend hundreds of dollars every promo to buy multiple packs and there are bound to be other people who will want to buy them who never visit places like these forums who no little to nothing about how upset the masses are.

    Unless people somehow KNEW STO was on its way out so they wont spend money on a dying game,I think the only way things are going to change is if Cryptic changes, and with Andre STO is never going to be anything more than about the $$$
    #WithoutRespectWeReject
  • thegrandnagus1thegrandnagus1 Member Posts: 4,936 Arc User
    edited September 2020
    > @lianthelia said:
    > (Quote)
    >
    > I think you underestimate the whales...

    ----

    Its not a matter of underestimating, its simply not having the info. Neither you nor I or anyone outside of Cryptic actually knows how much of their income comes from whales vs normal spenders, so neither of us should pretend we do.

    Also, just because someone is a whale(which just means a big spender) does not mean they cannot get pissed and take that money elsewhere.

    The-Grand-Nagus
    Join Date: Sep 2008

    og9Zoh0.jpg
  • crypticarmsmancrypticarmsman Member Posts: 3,812 Arc User
    .
    So to recap.

    It's supposed to be the ship from Picard but is just a reskinned avenger with a shiny op trait in a game where you can clear any and all content in a T5? Put in a lockbox that will cost around £200?

    They think many people will actualy buy this?

    If some people didn't really want it, do you think there would be such an outcry here in this thread? STO is driven by market forces. If Cryptic believed they'd make more money putting this ship in the C-Store, it would be in the C-Store.

    If their Lock Box mechanic (as it exists today) didn't bring in a SIZABLE cashflow - it would no longer exist. That is continues to exist shows that yes, while some players complain, many more use various means available in game to get the ship they want; and that brings in more cash for Cryptic then either the Subscription model )which they completely abandoned; or putting every ship into their C-Store )which they don't do.

    So yes, their market research tells them that putting a ship like this in a Lockbox will net them WAY MORE than making it a 'prize' in an event, or putting it in the C-Store. It's a very calculated and non-random decision by their marketing dept.

    So bottom line yes, they think a lot of people will want and will do what nit takes in game to acquire this ship because of various factors.
    Formerly known as Armsman from June 2008 to June 20, 2012
    TOS_Connie_Sig_final9550Pop.jpg
    PWE ARC Drone says: "Your STO forum community as you have known it is ended...Display names are irrelevant...Any further sense of community is irrelevant...Resistance is futile...You will be assimilated..."
  • westx211westx211 Member Posts: 41,601 Arc User
    > @crypticarmsman said:
    > .(Quote)
    >
    > If some people didn't really want it, do you think there would be such an outcry here in this thread? STO is driven by market forces. If Cryptic believed they'd make more money putting this ship in the C-Store, it would be in the C-Store.
    >
    > If their Lock Box mechanic (as it exists today) didn't bring in a SIZABLE cashflow - it would no longer exist. That is continues to exist shows that yes, while some players complain, many more use various means available in game to get the ship they want; and that brings in more cash for Cryptic then either the Subscription model )which they completely abandoned; or putting every ship into their C-Store )which they don't do.
    >
    > So yes, their market research tells them that putting a ship like this in a Lockbox will net them WAY MORE than making it a 'prize' in an event, or putting it in the C-Store. It's a very calculated and non-random decision by their marketing dept.
    >
    > So bottom line yes, they think a lot of people will want and will do what nit takes in game to acquire this ship because of various factors.

    I think people greatly underestimate how often businesses make mistakes. Take a look at Dead Space 2, they marketed the game with that "Your Grandma doesn't like Dead Space 2" an attempt to appear more edgy and draw in more players, which failed.

    Businesses very often make mistakes based upon their own flawed interpretations of things. I'm sure the devs believe that they can make a lot of money off of the Inquiry(or whoever at the top is making these decisions) but will they actually? You can't say, neither I nor you can guarantee whether it will be successful enough.

    Cryptic also has a long history of digging their heads in the sand when they make a mistake such as with Delta Rising which took them months to undo some of the changes they had made that upset players.
    Men are not punished for their sins, but by them.
  • fleetcaptain5#1134 fleetcaptain5 Member Posts: 2,978 Arc User
    edited September 2020
    .
    So to recap.

    It's supposed to be the ship from Picard but is just a reskinned avenger with a shiny op trait in a game where you can clear any and all content in a T5? Put in a lockbox that will cost around £200?

    They think many people will actualy buy this?

    If some people didn't really want it, do you think there would be such an outcry here in this thread? STO is driven by market forces. If Cryptic believed they'd make more money putting this ship in the C-Store, it would be in the C-Store.

    If their Lock Box mechanic (as it exists today) didn't bring in a SIZABLE cashflow - it would no longer exist. That is continues to exist shows that yes, while some players complain, many more use various means available in game to get the ship they want; and that brings in more cash for Cryptic then either the Subscription model )which they completely abandoned; or putting every ship into their C-Store )which they don't do.

    So yes, their market research tells them that putting a ship like this in a Lockbox will net them WAY MORE than making it a 'prize' in an event, or putting it in the C-Store. It's a very calculated and non-random decision by their marketing dept.

    So bottom line yes, they think a lot of people will want and will do what nit takes in game to acquire this ship because of various factors.

    A major thing you'd have to ignore though (or forget about, like many seem to do) is that there was a time when promo packs didn't exist.

    The game survived, they made money. It thrived despite most ships ending up in the C-store and, admittedly, more lockbox releases (we only have like one or two each year nowadays, compared with 4 each year until the end of August 2018 or so https://sto.gamepedia.com/Lock_Box ).

    They focussed on creating new factions like the Romulan one and huge expansion packs that unlocked for the entire account.

    It appears they simply want more, or the same amount of money by selling fewer ships (namely, promo ones) and bother less with the other stuff that used to end up in lockboxes.



    The things mentioned above are also undeniable facts that I feel most people - and certainly those saying that bills need to be paid - don't pay sufficient attention to.
    Cryptic has been increasing the sums they're demanding - asking as much or even more for a single item than they did for an entire expansion pack or lifetime membership. The single item unlocks have been made much more expensive on average and replaced the 'cheaper' ones, namely the lockbox (and lobi!) ships.

    Basically, they're releasing up to two super special ships each year now, compared with four until two years ago. Or four when including the lockbox ones that still do get designed - but that's still less than the four lockbox ships and multiple lobi ships we had each year until the end of 2018.

    They also make like half of these ships much more expensive.


    Bottom line:

    There has always been a market for their products - or the game would have died before they could ever release the first promo pack and even have those replacing the lock boxes as we're seeing now.

    So that's not an excuse. It also doesn't explain why they suddenly need to get more money while designing fewer ships.
    [4:46] [Combat {self}] Your Haymaker deals 23337 (9049) Physical Damage(Critical) to Spawnmother

    [3/25 10:41][Combat (Self)]Your Haymaker deals 26187 (10692) Physical Damage(Critical) to Orinoco.
  • fleetcaptain5#1134 fleetcaptain5 Member Posts: 2,978 Arc User
    edited September 2020
    If Cryptic needs to make these ships super expensive just to pay the bills, that can mean a few things:


    1. They get less revenue from other sources.
    - This can either mean that people on average spend less.
    - Or that there are fewer people spending.

    2. They were making losses for years until they started releasing promo ships - and they had to correct that.

    3. They have higher costs.
    - This can be due to various reasons. One important thing (probably) to include: they're making more other stuff.


    The first thing of course might well be the result of changes they themselves have made. Fewer C-store ships means fewer people will spend. Players driven away by constant events and so on (as I've observed in my own fleet for example), means that the remaining players have to be drained more.

    The second explanation is unlikely.

    The third explanation would be great if it were true. The sad fact of course, is that everyone can see that it is not true. As I've just outlined: fewer lockbox items get released. Moreover, fewer unique missions (i.e., TFO's that are not recycled) are added, reputations are released less often, same for spec trees, bugs don't get fixed anymore or even picked up it seems...

    We did receive more items through giveaways like vanity shields and the Platinum pack. While great and generous, it doesn't undo the trend that overall, less stuff gets designed.



    There is of course one other major explanation why they suddenly need more money for each item / pack they're releasing despite almost nothing being in those packs. But I'll keep it friendly.
    [4:46] [Combat {self}] Your Haymaker deals 23337 (9049) Physical Damage(Critical) to Spawnmother

    [3/25 10:41][Combat (Self)]Your Haymaker deals 26187 (10692) Physical Damage(Critical) to Orinoco.
  • lordmerc22lordmerc22 Member Posts: 776 Arc User
    If Cryptic needs to make these ships super expensive just to pay the bills, that can mean a few things:


    1. They get less revenue from other sources.
    - This can either mean that people on average spend less.
    - Or that there are fewer people spending.

    2. They were making losses for years until they started releasing promo ships - and they had to correct that.

    3. They have higher costs.
    - This can be due to various reasons. One important thing (probably) to include: they're making more other stuff.


    The first thing of course might well be the result of changes they themselves have made. Fewer C-store ships means fewer people will spend. Players driven away by constant events and so on (as I've observed in my own fleet for example), means that the remaining players have to be drained more.

    The second explanation is unlikely.

    The third explanation would be great if it were true. The sad fact of course, is that everyone can see that it is not true. As I've just outlined: fewer lockbox items get released. Moreover, fewer unique missions (i.e., TFO's that are not recycled) are added, reputations are released less often, same for spec trees, bugs don't get fixed anymore or even picked up it seems...

    We did receive more items through giveaways like vanity shields and the Platinum pack. While great and generous, it doesn't undo the trend that overall, less stuff gets designed.



    There is of course one other major explanation why they suddenly need more money for each item / pack they're releasing despite almost nothing being in those packs. But I'll keep it friendly.

    You forget a big thing there. The revenues arent counted for the company as STO revenues but as Cryptic revenues from the whole stable of titles. It did help them for example when NWO was extremely popular - a level of popularity STO never got to.

    Also in the same light, you must consider that part of the increased expenses is developing a new game, which is pretty much on "crunch time" where it needs most manhours and money. I am talking for Magic Legends. Developing a new game is very costy nowadays.

    That said, like you, I think they took a wrong approach on many things which may cost on long run. Both on monetization and on how low priority they give on the stability of the online service. Add to it they fake stats because they create downward spirals which obviously gives the wrong feedback. Lets take bridges for example:

    They say they dont make new bridges cause their data shows not enough people buy them BUT the bridges out there:

    1. Are old and most of STO fanbase been around for years so whoever wanted to buy them already bought them. The sales wont increase cause people wont make new accounts just to rebuy the (very) old ship bridges.
    2. The quality in them is atrocious mostly due to things like npcs buried to floors, misplaced lightings, captains sits you cant sit anymore. You just can go look every deck on TOS bridge as an example. If someone buys one bridge pack with such quality, wouldnt he/she get discouraged to buy another?

    So instead improve and fix them the solution was to stop making them and even if they make them for episodes, they dont make them for our ships anymore. The trend followed even the 200 euros worth ships from promo gambleboxes. So expensive ships dont even get a bridge to make the purchase somewhat more worth it.

    I think in many ways they dont realise the gravity of some wrong decisions they make, especially their boss
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