How many times do I have to repeat that other games not doing anything about serious issues isn't an excuse for this game not to do it? This is not an argument, it's an excuse.
I have no idea what this Guild Wars is. Is it also based on a television series that's rather famous for its tranquil (some would say archaic) sets and presentation of events?
Here's the problem, a number of people thinking something is a serious issue doesn't actually make it a serious issue. A serious issue would have a noticeable impact the number of people playing the game. If it doesn't then it isn't a serious issue, its an annoyance to some people. Which is why its not a high priorit for most game devs to "fix". Even though I owuld like to see a means to turn down the effects myself.
Also, have you watched Star Trek post TNG? Because I wouldn't call DS9, VOY, ENT, DSC, or PIC, tranquil.
You're just moving in circles now. Players have already been pointing out that the mentioned complaints are not just issues in need of fixing according to some very small minority. I'm not going to repeat the whole debate.
If playing a game for 15 minutes is what you consider a job, then I don't see how you enjoy games at all. This is bare minimum play time for any game.
Well, no. A good game (to me) is something you can play for pure entertainment. A good game doesn't need players to log on to do the same daily task.
I never felt obliged to play ST:Armada daily. Or Aven Colony. Or GTA. Or Monopoly for that matter. It is only with MMO's and the obsessive girlfriend-like attitude (insert meme here) of some of those that it has become 'normal' to expect people to be daily invested in a game.
The problem with this argument is that you claim they were expected to log in every day. Here's the thing, they weren't. No one is making you log in each day to do these events, as none of these events, or the rewards from them, are necessary to play the game, or play it well. The events are there for those who want to play them, you can totally skip them if you want. Hell, I skip every summer and winter event because I dislike them in every MMO, and don't feel like I missed out on anything.
All you are doing with this argument is shrugging off any sort of personal responsibility, and acting like the game is holding you at gunpoint. It isn't. the only person who has ever "expected" you to log in and do these events every day is yourself, and if you quit the game because of that, that is on you and you alone.
Games are designed to encourage this behaviour. Read about it, there's plenty of literature on the psychological manipulation. But you are right that I'm not some automaton who can't progress beyond his programming. That's why I'm out.
Goodbye all.
[4:46] [Combat {self}] Your Haymaker deals 23337 (9049) Physical Damage(Critical) to Spawnmother
OK, i think we are diverging away from the main topic of this thread. Which is the Inquiry class. Lets get back to discussing that shall we?
One thing that has disappointed me is some peoples vicious response to the ship being in Promo. OK, deliver your feedback that you dont like the method but good god what I have seen in the last few days. Case in point. One person tied the Inquiry class being in a Promo box as being a slap in the face to the medical professionals on the front line at the moment.
Note, while i am not a medical professional, I work in ICT working alongside our medical professionals. Sometimes being in the same frontline post as they are.
Now, I did raise my eyebrows about the Inquiry being Promo and did shake my head slightly. But the see venom i am seeing from some. is not called for. Give your feedback you are not happy, angry yes. But be respectful about it please.
I noticed that too, was funny and sad same time - since he practically uses the medics as an excuse to get better deals in a GAME
Riker was at the head of what was basically a cookie cutter fleet. Let's think about this a moment in Universe. Why do you make cookie cutter ships? Well, because the ships are cheap and easy to turn out en masse. Riker had a hundred of them behind him, and these 100 ships were facing what was a ragtag fleet of Romulan starships, in a message to the Rump Romulan Empire after the destruction of Romulus that genociding lifeforms just because of their species was something the Federation was done supporting, once it was revealed exactly how the Feds were manipulated to look the other way (hint: Romulans need to learn where they stand in galactic geopolitics now...)
The U.S.S. Zheng He would merely be one of a bajillion 'Inquiry Class' ships (the Class Ship was named the U.S.S. Inquiry? Maybe it would have better been named after some historical Admiral, making these 'Admiral Class' starships), special in that William Riker commanded her 10 years ago. But overall, I'd expect these ships to be Tier 5 and show up in large numbers (and probably get blown the [tribble] up in large numbers) whenever the Federation needs force of numbers, rather than be lockbox ships. JMNSHO, though.
and they're representative of the average STO-player
They really aren't though, and thats the problem. Steam users are representative of Steam users, people who generally have 100+ games, and are always hopping between the big new releases/sales.
They aren't generally representative of the average STO player, or even the average MMO player, who are typically playing that one game in a more dedicated manner.
Assertion without evidence. We've been offered the steam chart of this game, so where and how are these points of yours illustrated in that graph?
The assertion doesn't even make much sense, as STO is a very old MMO, so people playing it are probably not interested in playing the next best thing. Maybe its their goto game when they get tired of a new release, but that effect is simply not evident in the graph.
What that graph does show us is steam player numbers of today are about the same as they were a year ago, which means its hard to actually claim a real player loss, especially given the events of the past year.
The funny thing about steam stats is everybody wants to use or dismiss them to fit their own point of view. If the steam numbers don't look so great, then folks who have an issue with the game point to that as 'evidence' that the game is in trouble while the defenders dismiss them and explain all their reasons why they don't actually represent the overall playerbase.
But if the numbers DO look good, both of those people completely switch sides. The defender who previously argued why those numbers aren't representative would be using them as evidence the game is doing great, while the person who isn't happy with the game would be suddenly arguing the 'not representative' point.
It's both funny and sad how people behave, but I guess we're all guilty
Besides, you're once again ignoring the rest of the argument.
I'll just repeat it.
If there's like a 20% decline in Steam-users and they're representative of the average STO-player, then it doesn't matter that they're only 1/3 of total players. The very fact that they make up that rather big share, indicates that what happens amongst Steam-players will likely also be happening amongst the overall playerbase and that it's not limited to Steam-users.
A 20% drop or so doesn't just occur somewhere without reason. If that happens, it is far more likely to indicate a trend within the overall playerbase than it is reasonable to just say 'ah well, but that's just Steam'.
That's not an explanation as to why you see such a large drop. It is ignorance at best. Certainly when, once again, combined with all the other evidence one can see in the game itself. Just another example: even ISA and Crystalline Entity take noticeably longer to begin.
Your argument is based on what appears to be a false premise.
The key phrase here, used to set it up, is
If there's like a 20% decline in Steam-users and they're representative of the average STO-player...
There's a link there you fail to establish. What evidence have you that Steam players are "representative of the average"? It seems to me, based on my acquaintance with a few Steam devotees, that Steam players are hardly "representative" of anything except players of Steam games - that is, players who launch from a platform that would very much like to introduce them to a lot of games, and who seem to be somewhat more distractable than most STO players I know.
Steam-player-numbers are often misleading, especially when a game is *not* exclusively on Steam. I've played STO via both Arc and the Stand-alone-launcher, and only one time did I use Steam for STO (back when the Steamrunner-promo had its debut).
A great deal of this is based on assumption anyway. I mean, I've seen quite a few friends (of whom I still keep in touch with) 'migrate' to Final Fantasy XIV - but I'd never assume that the fact that quite a few people I know have gone elsewhere is any reflection on the playbase as a whole.
Correct. And just because you start playing another MMO, doesn't mean you never play STO again.
Personally I have phases when I barely log in, then I have phases where I play STO intensively for a few months. It's been like that ever since I started in 2011.
However, I still have to acknowledge that the game does have one of the most generous Free to Play models around and they did just 'give away' a decent Science ship (the Risa Weather Control ship) for, basically, nothing.
I totally agree on that. I tried way too many games, some did give freebies every now and then but not freebies worth 30 euros from their shop in a consistent basis. This time's lobi pack from the campaign was a pleasant surprise too. Its not all negative, they do a lot things right, but just tend to shoot themselves on their feet sometimes - plus the long time lag problems of their service, especially times population had increased. Apart from the science ship, the fehkliri dread carrier witht the 5 tac consoles and the spririt-like pets is a ship I fly a lot even today
Steam numbers also fluctuate depending on technical issues. For instance I used to use Steam for STO when I came back a few years ago but ended up stopping after about a six months to a year because a STO major update broke the game. For a few weeks I went around and around with troubleshooting, checking, and even redownloading the game, all to no avail. Finally I gave up and downloaded the ARC version and it just worked.
While that was happening to me it was also happening to a lot of other steam players, so the charts probably registered a dip in STO play without the players actually leaving the game intentionally. And a lot of the them having trouble did exactly what I did, download the ARC version and use it instead.
Right now the opposite is happening with SWTOR, the last update introduced stability issues with their native version but the Steam version is solid, and word has gone out in several Discord channels about it so a lot of people who are having problems have switched to the Steam version, so it probably looks like SWTOR is going though a big revival in those charts without the actual number of players changing if you add the two clients together.
Just to be fair though, the description of Steam players as fickle whales flitting around a hundred games does have some basis in fact (the Steam group I was with tended to do that exact thing, and my budget did not allow me to even try to keep up with them for long) though there are also plenty of steady-though-casual players like myself who use steam too (though in my case just not Steam STO anymore because of the technical problem).
Assertion without evidence. We've been offered the steam chart of this game, so where and how are these points of yours illustrated in that graph?
Well, 6 of the 8 Decembers listed on the graph show player declines, which is typically when the last big games of the year release for the holidays, or when platforms like Steam start winter sales. There's also a number of dips in the June(6/8)/July(6/8)/August(5/8) area, during the summer game releases.
Which games? Steam has thousands of games on it and new releases are constantly coming out and there is always something on sale. You're just assuming any variation is someone playing another game as opposed to working overtime, going on vacation, joining the stupid riots, completely quitting the game or any other possibility. You have no evidence for your assertions.
The assertion doesn't even make much sense, as STO is a very old MMO, so people playing it are probably not interested in playing the next best thing. Maybe its their goto game when they get tired of a new release, but that effect is simply not evident in the graph.
Everquest and WoW are older, Guild wars 2 is is only two years behind, and all of them have huge sections of their playerbase that drop in/drop out to go play new games. Thats generally how MMOs work.
No, you don't know that they go to a new game. They could be bored and go to another old game, they could go offline and do something else. And yes, certainly some people do play the next thing too. But they could just be cutting back on STO, not even leaving it entirely. How many do each? There is no way to know.
What that graph does show us is steam player numbers of today are about the same as they were a year ago, which means its hard to actually claim a real player loss, especially given the events of the past year.
Or did you see a lot of praise for the visual spam,
Heres what most large boss fights in GW 2 look like
Are you entirely certain this isn't a STO screenshot. Because I was not at first. I guess the HUD gives it away. But if you made a screenshot without the HUD and overlayed a STO screenshot over it...
Though I would say that it doesn't that bad all the time in STO.
The most offensive thing IMO is that Khaless Light console or whatever it's called. That is truly going too far because it really blinds you as player.
Even combat with phasers at Tier 6 doesn't quite look like Star Trek anymore because there are just too many beams and cannon shots everywhere, but even in most high level combat scenarios, I do not find it impossible to keep track of what's going on in general.
Of course, given how many Science Vessels flying characters, I tend to be quite aware of when the most egregious effects are created. (Though the gravity aftershock things can still be confusing "Is that my anomaly or someone else's. Whatever, some anomaly must still be mine, let's trigger Spore Infused Anomalies anyway)
Star Trek Online Advancement: You start with lowbie gear, you end with Lobi gear.
Or did you see a lot of praise for the visual spam,
Heres what most large boss fights in GW 2 look like
Are you entirely certain this isn't a STO screenshot. Because I was not at first. I guess the HUD gives it away. But if you made a screenshot without the HUD and overlayed a STO screenshot over it...
Though I would say that it doesn't that bad all the time in STO.
The most offensive thing IMO is that Khaless Light console or whatever it's called. That is truly going too far because it really blinds you as player.
Even combat with phasers at Tier 6 doesn't quite look like Star Trek anymore because there are just too many beams and cannon shots everywhere, but even in most high level combat scenarios, I do not find it impossible to keep track of what's going on in general.
Of course, given how many Science Vessels flying characters, I tend to be quite aware of when the most egregious effects are created. (Though the gravity aftershock things can still be confusing "Is that my anomaly or someone else's. Whatever, some anomaly must still be mine, let's trigger Spore Infused Anomalies anyway)
Its a beacon, a beacon you can call discovery era klingon ships to fight for a bit along your side
Besides, you're once again ignoring the rest of the argument.
I'll just repeat it.
If there's like a 20% decline in Steam-users and they're representative of the average STO-player, then it doesn't matter that they're only 1/3 of total players. The very fact that they make up that rather big share, indicates that what happens amongst Steam-players will likely also be happening amongst the overall playerbase and that it's not limited to Steam-users.
A 20% drop or so doesn't just occur somewhere without reason. If that happens, it is far more likely to indicate a trend within the overall playerbase than it is reasonable to just say 'ah well, but that's just Steam'.
That's not an explanation as to why you see such a large drop. It is ignorance at best. Certainly when, once again, combined with all the other evidence one can see in the game itself. Just another example: even ISA and Crystalline Entity take noticeably longer to begin.
Your argument is based on what appears to be a false premise.
The key phrase here, used to set it up, is
If there's like a 20% decline in Steam-users and they're representative of the average STO-player...
There's a link there you fail to establish. What evidence have you that Steam players are "representative of the average"? It seems to me, based on my acquaintance with a few Steam devotees, that Steam players are hardly "representative" of anything except players of Steam games - that is, players who launch from a platform that would very much like to introduce them to a lot of games, and who seem to be somewhat more distractable than most STO players I know.
Not sure his argument is a false premise as I can see a link that seems to establish his argument is correct. How about the pattern in the steam data matches the pattern we see in game which establishes a link that the Steam players are representative of the average none STO Steam Player. We can make an estimate of active players by looking at how many zones are active in key areas and timing how long certain TFO take to start.
If you view the Steam data in 24 hour junks there is a clear low point and high point approx. the same time every day. It’s a clear pattern that matches in the in game data of active zones and time it takes to start TFO’s. Play at the low point and there will be few extra zones sometimes zero extra zones, TFO take longer the start. Play at the high point and see loads of extra zones and TFO start very fast. The 1month data shows the daily low and high point very clearly. Interestingly the high point also match's the extra lag and the extra zones showing us why we get lag in some areas of the game and no lag in other areas. I often jump zones to avoid server lag as we often get lag in 1 zone and no lag in another zone based on numbers.
Expanding on this if you log into the game on the same days Steam shows a high player population you more often then not should see a high amount of extra zones and a corresponding link to active TFO’s. Likewise if you log into the game when Steam shows a low player population you should see the same pattern in game in reverse.
So while Steam is far from perfect and clearly doesn't show the entire player base there is enough data to show Steam appears to represent the average STO player who doesn't use Steam. There is a clear matching trend between Steam players and none Steam Players. I also expect a large amount of those none Steam players are really Steam players who just don't play STO via Steam. A lot of us still use the standalone client or Arc even if Steam is installed.
The really short version is ISA and Crystalline Entity match the Steam data. Meaning fleetcaptain5 appears to be correct.
They were also really terrible when the game was new, most were poorly made, copy pasted sold in bundles with little variations. Also back then Bridges served no actual purpose, there weren't doffs back then, or account banks, they had no reason to exist.
Thing is, he's right about everything he said. Nowadays we do have reasons to visit bridges, but most bridges are still s**tty.
And they still sold poorly when DOFFing was introduced, and they still sold poorly when account banks were added, and they still sold poorly even when they started being more unique, and they still sold poorly throughout the expansions which brought in many new players, and all of this was true even before the last 2 years when bridge really started breaking down, and NPCs were getting caught in the floors all the time.
So obviously, adding in gameplay, functions, and uniqueness, didn't help them to sell, even before all of the current problems starting popping up.
Being poorly made still means they're poorly made after doffs and such were released. They literally only ever added 1 bridge since the original packs and that was the Galaxy...they didn't even try and add any new ones...half the old ones they couldn't even bother to update from the original blue lcars textures to the modern. You're just making more excuses for their laziness
Once again it's a example where they made a poor and lazy product and instead of trying to improve it then just point to it as a excuse to not do it.
It's the same excuse over and over
KDF didn't get any Science ships in a long time because no one bought the Varanus...a ship which had stats worse then FREE Fed Science ships
KDF didn't get ANY ships in a long time because the Bortasque sold poorly...it was a ship labeled as a Battlecruiser but it was almost as big of a whale as the Voquv
Romulans didn't get any ships in a long time because the Ar'kif...it was a poorly made Tactical Warbird in a roster bloated with Tactical Warbirds...and the king of DPS the Scimtar was released right before it
The Devs have a laundry list of poorly made things that they used as a excuse not to make things...yet it's funny how the Fed faction never got such a poorly designed ship that was worse than free ships...not a coincidence
They constantly cut corners just to avoid doing things they don't want do, players be damned
Or did you see a lot of praise for the visual spam,
Heres what most large boss fights in GW 2 look like
Are you entirely certain this isn't a STO screenshot. Because I was not at first. I guess the HUD gives it away. But if you made a screenshot without the HUD and overlayed a STO screenshot over it...
Though I would say that it doesn't that bad all the time in STO.
The most offensive thing IMO is that Khaless Light console or whatever it's called. That is truly going too far because it really blinds you as player.
Even combat with phasers at Tier 6 doesn't quite look like Star Trek anymore because there are just too many beams and cannon shots everywhere, but even in most high level combat scenarios, I do not find it impossible to keep track of what's going on in general.
Of course, given how many Science Vessels flying characters, I tend to be quite aware of when the most egregious effects are created. (Though the gravity aftershock things can still be confusing "Is that my anomaly or someone else's. Whatever, some anomaly must still be mine, let's trigger Spore Infused Anomalies anyway)
Its a beacon, a beacon you can call discovery era klingon ships to fight for a bit along your side
Or did you see a lot of praise for the visual spam,
Heres what most large boss fights in GW 2 look like
Are you entirely certain this isn't a STO screenshot. Because I was not at first. I guess the HUD gives it away. But if you made a screenshot without the HUD and overlayed a STO screenshot over it...
Though I would say that it doesn't that bad all the time in STO.
The most offensive thing IMO is that Khaless Light console or whatever it's called. That is truly going too far because it really blinds you as player.
Even combat with phasers at Tier 6 doesn't quite look like Star Trek anymore because there are just too many beams and cannon shots everywhere, but even in most high level combat scenarios, I do not find it impossible to keep track of what's going on in general.
Of course, given how many Science Vessels flying characters, I tend to be quite aware of when the most egregious effects are created. (Though the gravity aftershock things can still be confusing "Is that my anomaly or someone else's. Whatever, some anomaly must still be mine, let's trigger Spore Infused Anomalies anyway)
Its a beacon, a beacon you can call discovery era klingon ships to fight for a bit along your side
The U.S.S. Zheng He would merely be one of a bajillion 'Inquiry Class' ships (the Class Ship was named the U.S.S. Inquiry? Maybe it would have better been named after some historical Admiral, making these 'Admiral Class' starships), special in that William Riker commanded her 10 years ago. But overall, I'd expect these ships to be Tier 5 and show up in large numbers (and probably get blown the [tribble] up in large numbers) whenever the Federation needs force of numbers, rather than be lockbox ships. JMNSHO, though.
Judging by some of the lore text on the news post, this Inquiry isn't exactly the same as the one Riker was in charge of. It looks the same on the outside but would be modernized on the inside. Which is something STO has done before. (T6 Constellation and Fleet T6 Soyuz class ships anyone?) So lore wise it's more like an Inquiry Refit/Retrofit. As I understand it the original concept art, which predated Cryptic's STO, was called the Tahoe class. Real world examples exist in military aircraft. The USAF still flies the A-10 which entered service in 1976 and the B-52 which dates back to 1955 and has been upgraded internally multiple times.
Initially coming to fame in 2399, with the actions of the USS Zheng He over the planet Coppelius, the Inquiry Class was Starfleet’s most powerful ship for many years. The initial designs and technical breakthroughs of the ship were later used as the starting point for the Avenger-class project. Engineers at Utopia Planetia felt the time was right for another update to the Avenger line, and decided to return to the classic form, and name, of the Inquiry class.
I really hate those lore texts that explain why we have 'old' ships at endgame. Engineers deciding to build brand new ships but choosing a retro-design is as cringey as having 31st century ships which were stripped of their tech to be 'fair' in the 25c xD
A retrofit wouldn't be an issue, but they can't have a promo ship sounding 'old', so despite the Avenger having already replaced the inquiry in-lore, they supposedly design and build another ship class but let it be a visual replica of the Inquiry which is just some odd 10-20 years old at best.
^ Memory Alpha.org is not canon. It's a open wiki with arbitrary rules. Only what can be cited from an episode is. ^
"No. Men do not roar. Women roar. Then they hurl heavy objects... and claw at you." -Worf, son of Mogh
"A filthy, mangy beast, but in its bony breast beat the heart of a warrior" - "faithful" (...) "but ever-ready to follow the call of the wild." - Martok, about a Targ
"That pig smelled horrid. A sweet-sour, extremely pungent odor. I showered and showered, and it took me a week to get rid of it!" - Robert Justman, appreciating Emmy-Lou
> @reyan01 said: > (Quote) > > Whilst there is an element of uncertainty about exactly when the Inquiry class was comissioned (as your post implied) I have to say that I completely agree. > > I mean, in terms of Trek lore, why would Starfleet treat the Inquiry class this way but treat the older 'Vesta' line of ships as if they were still ships of the line (dialogue in the tutorial suggests this)?
STO really overdid the ship classes in service. There are so many classes that do the exact same thing running parallel to each other while constantly cranking out new ships or refitting them after a few months of service xD
'Ship class fatique' is of course gameplay related, and worsened because STOs timeline is quasi static. Remember the Oddyssey class, the pinnacle of Starfleet engineering? It launched in-lore like a year ago at best and has already been refitted and replaced TWICE (First the prototype/maiden voyage variant, then the T5 pack, then the T6 pack and now Legendary).
My headcanon for STO is that in the 25c we have 24c retrofits (TNG skins), 24c refits (Venture et al., the white skins) new 25c ships (the new classes with 'white/Oddyssey' skins, like Vesta, Avenger, Oddy) and the T6 versions are replacements following the Iconian war with advanced tech (Andromeda et al).
^ Memory Alpha.org is not canon. It's a open wiki with arbitrary rules. Only what can be cited from an episode is. ^
"No. Men do not roar. Women roar. Then they hurl heavy objects... and claw at you." -Worf, son of Mogh
"A filthy, mangy beast, but in its bony breast beat the heart of a warrior" - "faithful" (...) "but ever-ready to follow the call of the wild." - Martok, about a Targ
"That pig smelled horrid. A sweet-sour, extremely pungent odor. I showered and showered, and it took me a week to get rid of it!" - Robert Justman, appreciating Emmy-Lou
I really hate those lore texts that explain why we have 'old' ships at endgame. Engineers deciding to build brand new ships but choosing a retro-design is as cringey as having 31st century ships which were stripped of their tech to be 'fair' in the 25c xD
A retrofit wouldn't be an issue, but they can't have a promo ship sounding 'old', so despite the Avenger having already replaced the inquiry in-lore, they supposedly design and build another ship class but let it be a visual replica of the Inquiry which is just some odd 10-20 years old at best.
This is what we call "knowledge/gameplay separation". The real reason, of course, is that players were clamoring to fly their favorite ships at endgame (and I'm sorry, Reyan, but so far there just hasn't been enough clamor for the Nova - if we ever get a T6 version, though, I suggest it be officially designated as an Alliance ship called the Hobus-class, as it would be a super Nova), and realistically a 250-year-old ship like a Connie would be about as viable against modern 25th-century ships as a paper airplane at the Battle of Britain.
But you can't just say "the captains wanted to fly really old ships because they thought they were cool", so we have to introduce nonsense like that into the game lore.
[The real reason, of course, is that players were clamoring to fly their favorite ships at endgame (and I'm sorry, Reyan, but so far there just hasn't been enough clamor for the Nova
Not true. I don't recall anyone clamoring for the Akira class yet that particuar class has received TWO quality passes.
That's because "clamoring" has nothing to do with it. In game/sales stats do. If Cryptic sees a certain ship selling very well, they will make alternate versions to double dip on those sales. If it's not a popular ship in game, then "clamoring" just doesn't matter.
The fact that they haven't made a T6 Nova is not based on a dev hating it, it is based on the apparent lack of popularity in game metrics (not on the forums).
[The real reason, of course, is that players were clamoring to fly their favorite ships at endgame (and I'm sorry, Reyan, but so far there just hasn't been enough clamor for the Nova
Not true. I don't recall anyone clamoring for the Akira class yet that particuar class has received TWO quality passes.
That's because "clamoring" has nothing to do with it. In game/sales stats do. If Cryptic sees a certain ship selling very well, they will make alternate versions to double dip on those sales. If it's not a popular ship in game, then "clamoring" just doesn't matter.
The fact that they haven't made a T6 Nova is not based on a dev hating it, it is based on the apparent lack of popularity in game metrics (not on the forums).
Though there has been atleast 1 case of a ship not making it into the game based on a dev hating it, a certain klingon ship was despised by a certain dev named after a reptile and its commonly believed that why the ship was never given to klingon characters. (I think the ship actually made it into the foundry but never the full game)
By the by, unlike every other lockbox/promo ship the Inquiry is currently bound to character and cannot be sold on the exchange. Whether this is a "bug" or a "feature" remains to be seen. But considering the Inquiry already broke the policy of 'no normal ships in lockboxes', maybe they are going 'all out' on it with binding too.
It's supposed to be the ship from Picard but is just a reskinned avenger with a shiny op trait in a game where you can clear any and all content in a T5? Put in a lockbox that will cost around £200?
They think many people will actualy buy this?
If some people didn't really want it, do you think there would be such an outcry here in this thread? STO is driven by market forces. If Cryptic believed they'd make more money putting this ship in the C-Store, it would be in the C-Store.
If their Lock Box mechanic (as it exists today) didn't bring in a SIZABLE cashflow - it would no longer exist. That is continues to exist shows that yes, while some players complain, many more use various means available in game to get the ship they want; and that brings in more cash for Cryptic then either the Subscription model )which they completely abandoned; or putting every ship into their C-Store )which they don't do.
So yes, their market research tells them that putting a ship like this in a Lockbox will net them WAY MORE than making it a 'prize' in an event, or putting it in the C-Store. It's a very calculated and non-random decision by their marketing dept.
So bottom line yes, they think a lot of people will want and will do what nit takes in game to acquire this ship because of various factors.
A major thing you'd have to ignore though (or forget about, like many seem to do) is that there was a time when promo packs didn't exist.
The game survived, they made money. It thrived despite most ships ending up in the C-store and, admittedly, more lockbox releases (we only have like one or two each year nowadays, compared with 4 each year until the end of August 2018 or so https://sto.gamepedia.com/Lock_Box ).
They focussed on creating new factions like the Romulan one and huge expansion packs that unlocked for the entire account.
It appears they simply want more, or the same amount of money by selling fewer ships (namely, promo ones) and bother less with the other stuff that used to end up in lockboxes.
The things mentioned above are also undeniable facts that I feel most people - and certainly those saying that bills need to be paid - don't pay sufficient attention to.
Cryptic has been increasing the sums they're demanding - asking as much or even more for a single item than they did for an entire expansion pack or lifetime membership. The single item unlocks have been made much more expensive on average and replaced the 'cheaper' ones, namely the lockbox (and lobi!) ships.
Basically, they're releasing up to two super special ships each year now, compared with four until two years ago. Or four when including the lockbox ones that still do get designed - but that's still less than the four lockbox ships and multiple lobi ships we had each year until the end of 2018.
They also make like half of these ships much more expensive.
Bottom line:
There has always been a market for their products - or the game would have died before they could ever release the first promo pack and even have those replacing the lock boxes as we're seeing now.
So that's not an excuse. It also doesn't explain why they suddenly need to get more money while designing fewer ships.
Did STO make money under the subscription and C-Store only system? Yep. But again (and this goes for ALL western MMO developers) - EVERYONE saw that Eastern MMOs were making WAY MORE money using a combo of F2P/B2P. They ONLY reason the west didn't go F2P sooner was they thought Western players would never go for it. and that was the way is was until 2008/2009 when Dungeons & Dragons Online was TANKING under the subscription model. It's operators said, "Hell, lets try F2P..." (which required MONEY to be put into the game when it was failing because code conversion costs money - but they were willing to gamble and see what happened)...And DDO turned into a successful money making MMO that survives to this day.
ONCE WESTERN MMO DEVELOPERS SAW TNHAT THERE WERE PLAYERS THAT WOULD ACCEPT F2P, THE MAJORITY ALSO SPENT MONEY TO CONVERT THEIR GAMES AND THE MAJORITY SAW AN INCREASE IN PROFITS.
^^^
To say: "It also doesn't explain why they suddenly need to get more money..."
MMOs are first and foremost a business. In our capitalist society businesses exist for one reason - to make money for their owners (yes, it provides jobs and livelyhoods to those they employ) - and that's been the way of business in the west for centuries. You don't just want 'some' profit - you want as much sustainable profit as you can get. They're not in it to just survive and make some money - they're in it to maximize their return on investment and get as much profit as the market will allow.
^^^
That's the cornerstone of western capitalism - and that's why Cryptic (as well as other MMO developers) does what it does.
Formerly known as Armsman from June 2008 to June 20, 2012 PWE ARC Drone says: "Your STO forum community as you have known it is ended...Display names are irrelevant...Any further sense of community is irrelevant...Resistance is futile...You will be assimilated..."
By the by, unlike every other lockbox/promo ship the Inquiry is currently bound to character and cannot be sold on the exchange. Whether this is a "bug" or a "feature" remains to be seen. But considering the Inquiry already broke the policy of 'no normal ships in lockboxes', maybe they are going 'all out' on it with binding too.
Don't forget the Inquiry lists itself as "Legendary Kelvin Timeline Intel Battlecruiser" in its little tooltip description.
Whether this is evidence that it was copy pasted and planned to be put in the C Store(Maybe as a Legendary upgrade to the Arbiter/Avenger like others have suggested) or as a standalon ship can't be told.
It does seem very strange to copy paste a C store ship box for a Promo ship, so I think its more likely it was intended to be a C Store ship originally, as if it was meant to be a promo they probably would have copy pasted a promo ship box.
Comments
You're just moving in circles now. Players have already been pointing out that the mentioned complaints are not just issues in need of fixing according to some very small minority. I'm not going to repeat the whole debate.
Well, no. A good game (to me) is something you can play for pure entertainment. A good game doesn't need players to log on to do the same daily task.
I never felt obliged to play ST:Armada daily. Or Aven Colony. Or GTA. Or Monopoly for that matter. It is only with MMO's and the obsessive girlfriend-like attitude (insert meme here) of some of those that it has become 'normal' to expect people to be daily invested in a game.
Games are designed to encourage this behaviour. Read about it, there's plenty of literature on the psychological manipulation. But you are right that I'm not some automaton who can't progress beyond his programming. That's why I'm out.
Goodbye all.
[3/25 10:41][Combat (Self)]Your Haymaker deals 26187 (10692) Physical Damage(Critical) to Orinoco.
I noticed that too, was funny and sad same time - since he practically uses the medics as an excuse to get better deals in a GAME
Riker was at the head of what was basically a cookie cutter fleet. Let's think about this a moment in Universe. Why do you make cookie cutter ships? Well, because the ships are cheap and easy to turn out en masse. Riker had a hundred of them behind him, and these 100 ships were facing what was a ragtag fleet of Romulan starships, in a message to the Rump Romulan Empire after the destruction of Romulus that genociding lifeforms just because of their species was something the Federation was done supporting, once it was revealed exactly how the Feds were manipulated to look the other way (hint: Romulans need to learn where they stand in galactic geopolitics now...)
The U.S.S. Zheng He would merely be one of a bajillion 'Inquiry Class' ships (the Class Ship was named the U.S.S. Inquiry? Maybe it would have better been named after some historical Admiral, making these 'Admiral Class' starships), special in that William Riker commanded her 10 years ago. But overall, I'd expect these ships to be Tier 5 and show up in large numbers (and probably get blown the [tribble] up in large numbers) whenever the Federation needs force of numbers, rather than be lockbox ships. JMNSHO, though.
Assertion without evidence. We've been offered the steam chart of this game, so where and how are these points of yours illustrated in that graph?
The assertion doesn't even make much sense, as STO is a very old MMO, so people playing it are probably not interested in playing the next best thing. Maybe its their goto game when they get tired of a new release, but that effect is simply not evident in the graph.
What that graph does show us is steam player numbers of today are about the same as they were a year ago, which means its hard to actually claim a real player loss, especially given the events of the past year.
But if the numbers DO look good, both of those people completely switch sides. The defender who previously argued why those numbers aren't representative would be using them as evidence the game is doing great, while the person who isn't happy with the game would be suddenly arguing the 'not representative' point.
It's both funny and sad how people behave, but I guess we're all guilty
The-Grand-Nagus
Join Date: Sep 2008
The key phrase here, used to set it up, is
There's a link there you fail to establish. What evidence have you that Steam players are "representative of the average"? It seems to me, based on my acquaintance with a few Steam devotees, that Steam players are hardly "representative" of anything except players of Steam games - that is, players who launch from a platform that would very much like to introduce them to a lot of games, and who seem to be somewhat more distractable than most STO players I know.
Correct. And just because you start playing another MMO, doesn't mean you never play STO again.
Personally I have phases when I barely log in, then I have phases where I play STO intensively for a few months. It's been like that ever since I started in 2011.
I totally agree on that. I tried way too many games, some did give freebies every now and then but not freebies worth 30 euros from their shop in a consistent basis. This time's lobi pack from the campaign was a pleasant surprise too. Its not all negative, they do a lot things right, but just tend to shoot themselves on their feet sometimes - plus the long time lag problems of their service, especially times population had increased. Apart from the science ship, the fehkliri dread carrier witht the 5 tac consoles and the spririt-like pets is a ship I fly a lot even today
While that was happening to me it was also happening to a lot of other steam players, so the charts probably registered a dip in STO play without the players actually leaving the game intentionally. And a lot of the them having trouble did exactly what I did, download the ARC version and use it instead.
Right now the opposite is happening with SWTOR, the last update introduced stability issues with their native version but the Steam version is solid, and word has gone out in several Discord channels about it so a lot of people who are having problems have switched to the Steam version, so it probably looks like SWTOR is going though a big revival in those charts without the actual number of players changing if you add the two clients together.
Just to be fair though, the description of Steam players as fickle whales flitting around a hundred games does have some basis in fact (the Steam group I was with tended to do that exact thing, and my budget did not allow me to even try to keep up with them for long) though there are also plenty of steady-though-casual players like myself who use steam too (though in my case just not Steam STO anymore because of the technical problem).
Which games? Steam has thousands of games on it and new releases are constantly coming out and there is always something on sale. You're just assuming any variation is someone playing another game as opposed to working overtime, going on vacation, joining the stupid riots, completely quitting the game or any other possibility. You have no evidence for your assertions.
No, you don't know that they go to a new game. They could be bored and go to another old game, they could go offline and do something else. And yes, certainly some people do play the next thing too. But they could just be cutting back on STO, not even leaving it entirely. How many do each? There is no way to know.
Obviously. That wasn't referring to you.
Though I would say that it doesn't that bad all the time in STO.
The most offensive thing IMO is that Khaless Light console or whatever it's called. That is truly going too far because it really blinds you as player.
Even combat with phasers at Tier 6 doesn't quite look like Star Trek anymore because there are just too many beams and cannon shots everywhere, but even in most high level combat scenarios, I do not find it impossible to keep track of what's going on in general.
Of course, given how many Science Vessels flying characters, I tend to be quite aware of when the most egregious effects are created. (Though the gravity aftershock things can still be confusing "Is that my anomaly or someone else's. Whatever, some anomaly must still be mine, let's trigger Spore Infused Anomalies anyway)
Its a beacon, a beacon you can call discovery era klingon ships to fight for a bit along your side
https://sto.gamepedia.com/Beacon_of_Kahless
and yes the blinding light was a bad idea although I understand they done it wanting to do same as seen on tv screen
If you view the Steam data in 24 hour junks there is a clear low point and high point approx. the same time every day. It’s a clear pattern that matches in the in game data of active zones and time it takes to start TFO’s. Play at the low point and there will be few extra zones sometimes zero extra zones, TFO take longer the start. Play at the high point and see loads of extra zones and TFO start very fast. The 1month data shows the daily low and high point very clearly. Interestingly the high point also match's the extra lag and the extra zones showing us why we get lag in some areas of the game and no lag in other areas. I often jump zones to avoid server lag as we often get lag in 1 zone and no lag in another zone based on numbers.
Expanding on this if you log into the game on the same days Steam shows a high player population you more often then not should see a high amount of extra zones and a corresponding link to active TFO’s. Likewise if you log into the game when Steam shows a low player population you should see the same pattern in game in reverse.
So while Steam is far from perfect and clearly doesn't show the entire player base there is enough data to show Steam appears to represent the average STO player who doesn't use Steam. There is a clear matching trend between Steam players and none Steam Players. I also expect a large amount of those none Steam players are really Steam players who just don't play STO via Steam. A lot of us still use the standalone client or Arc even if Steam is installed.
The really short version is ISA and Crystalline Entity match the Steam data. Meaning fleetcaptain5 appears to be correct.
Being poorly made still means they're poorly made after doffs and such were released. They literally only ever added 1 bridge since the original packs and that was the Galaxy...they didn't even try and add any new ones...half the old ones they couldn't even bother to update from the original blue lcars textures to the modern. You're just making more excuses for their laziness
Once again it's a example where they made a poor and lazy product and instead of trying to improve it then just point to it as a excuse to not do it.
It's the same excuse over and over
KDF didn't get any Science ships in a long time because no one bought the Varanus...a ship which had stats worse then FREE Fed Science ships
KDF didn't get ANY ships in a long time because the Bortasque sold poorly...it was a ship labeled as a Battlecruiser but it was almost as big of a whale as the Voquv
Romulans didn't get any ships in a long time because the Ar'kif...it was a poorly made Tactical Warbird in a roster bloated with Tactical Warbirds...and the king of DPS the Scimtar was released right before it
The Devs have a laundry list of poorly made things that they used as a excuse not to make things...yet it's funny how the Fed faction never got such a poorly designed ship that was worse than free ships...not a coincidence
They constantly cut corners just to avoid doing things they don't want do, players be damned
Bacon.. Bacon of Khaless, because bacon is good!
You are now making a poor old Gorn hungry
@darkbladejk You might want to keep your eye on this one if it keeps drifting off the primary thread topic.
Judging by some of the lore text on the news post, this Inquiry isn't exactly the same as the one Riker was in charge of. It looks the same on the outside but would be modernized on the inside. Which is something STO has done before. (T6 Constellation and Fleet T6 Soyuz class ships anyone?) So lore wise it's more like an Inquiry Refit/Retrofit. As I understand it the original concept art, which predated Cryptic's STO, was called the Tahoe class. Real world examples exist in military aircraft. The USAF still flies the A-10 which entered service in 1976 and the B-52 which dates back to 1955 and has been upgraded internally multiple times.
A retrofit wouldn't be an issue, but they can't have a promo ship sounding 'old', so despite the Avenger having already replaced the inquiry in-lore, they supposedly design and build another ship class but let it be a visual replica of the Inquiry which is just some odd 10-20 years old at best.
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> (Quote)
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> Whilst there is an element of uncertainty about exactly when the Inquiry class was comissioned (as your post implied) I have to say that I completely agree.
>
> I mean, in terms of Trek lore, why would Starfleet treat the Inquiry class this way but treat the older 'Vesta' line of ships as if they were still ships of the line (dialogue in the tutorial suggests this)?
STO really overdid the ship classes in service. There are so many classes that do the exact same thing running parallel to each other while constantly cranking out new ships or refitting them after a few months of service xD
'Ship class fatique' is of course gameplay related, and worsened because STOs timeline is quasi static. Remember the Oddyssey class, the pinnacle of Starfleet engineering? It launched in-lore like a year ago at best and has already been refitted and replaced TWICE (First the prototype/maiden voyage variant, then the T5 pack, then the T6 pack and now Legendary).
My headcanon for STO is that in the 25c we have 24c retrofits (TNG skins), 24c refits (Venture et al., the white skins) new 25c ships (the new classes with 'white/Oddyssey' skins, like Vesta, Avenger, Oddy) and the T6 versions are replacements following the Iconian war with advanced tech (Andromeda et al).
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But you can't just say "the captains wanted to fly really old ships because they thought they were cool", so we have to introduce nonsense like that into the game lore.
That's because "clamoring" has nothing to do with it. In game/sales stats do. If Cryptic sees a certain ship selling very well, they will make alternate versions to double dip on those sales. If it's not a popular ship in game, then "clamoring" just doesn't matter.
The fact that they haven't made a T6 Nova is not based on a dev hating it, it is based on the apparent lack of popularity in game metrics (not on the forums).
The-Grand-Nagus
Join Date: Sep 2008
Though there has been atleast 1 case of a ship not making it into the game based on a dev hating it, a certain klingon ship was despised by a certain dev named after a reptile and its commonly believed that why the ship was never given to klingon characters. (I think the ship actually made it into the foundry but never the full game)
The-Grand-Nagus
Join Date: Sep 2008
Did STO make money under the subscription and C-Store only system? Yep. But again (and this goes for ALL western MMO developers) - EVERYONE saw that Eastern MMOs were making WAY MORE money using a combo of F2P/B2P. They ONLY reason the west didn't go F2P sooner was they thought Western players would never go for it. and that was the way is was until 2008/2009 when Dungeons & Dragons Online was TANKING under the subscription model. It's operators said, "Hell, lets try F2P..." (which required MONEY to be put into the game when it was failing because code conversion costs money - but they were willing to gamble and see what happened)...And DDO turned into a successful money making MMO that survives to this day.
ONCE WESTERN MMO DEVELOPERS SAW TNHAT THERE WERE PLAYERS THAT WOULD ACCEPT F2P, THE MAJORITY ALSO SPENT MONEY TO CONVERT THEIR GAMES AND THE MAJORITY SAW AN INCREASE IN PROFITS.
^^^
To say: "It also doesn't explain why they suddenly need to get more money..."
MMOs are first and foremost a business. In our capitalist society businesses exist for one reason - to make money for their owners (yes, it provides jobs and livelyhoods to those they employ) - and that's been the way of business in the west for centuries. You don't just want 'some' profit - you want as much sustainable profit as you can get. They're not in it to just survive and make some money - they're in it to maximize their return on investment and get as much profit as the market will allow.
^^^
That's the cornerstone of western capitalism - and that's why Cryptic (as well as other MMO developers) does what it does.
PWE ARC Drone says: "Your STO forum community as you have known it is ended...Display names are irrelevant...Any further sense of community is irrelevant...Resistance is futile...You will be assimilated..."
Don't forget the Inquiry lists itself as "Legendary Kelvin Timeline Intel Battlecruiser" in its little tooltip description.
Whether this is evidence that it was copy pasted and planned to be put in the C Store(Maybe as a Legendary upgrade to the Arbiter/Avenger like others have suggested) or as a standalon ship can't be told.
It does seem very strange to copy paste a C store ship box for a Promo ship, so I think its more likely it was intended to be a C Store ship originally, as if it was meant to be a promo they probably would have copy pasted a promo ship box.
Still this is a ridiculous TRIBBLE up.