Again, you're not getting hit with 8 sub nukes at once. But when there are 12 hirogen ships and most of them have sub nukes, it is possible to get hit with 8 total over the course of the battle. Stop acting like magically no content exists where you will fight more than 4 hirogen ships.
This feels like one of the few legitimate cases of "git gud" as a valid response, though this comes with the caveat that initially, Hirogen were never encountered in large groups with multiple instances of subnuke.
A minor gameplay balance concern may need to be addressed there, but generally, buff stripping is a perfectly valid tool in an NPC's toolbox to provide challenge for a player, and a single instance of subnuke both has a very long cooldown (I've never seen an NPC pop it twice even in the olden days) and has a solid counter to eliminate the cooldown debuff it places on you. Even in large groups, the NPCs aren't smart enough to space out their 'nukes, so it's usually just a matter of watching for the purple clocks and popping Sci Team, then carrying on with business as usual.
Well may be its just me but i have yet to have this issue. On normal its never been an issue for me and on advanced and elite the few times ships have given me an issue has been no where near this level of effect.
I would be interested if this is just one toon you have with this issue or every toon? If just a few then i would say look in to why only them or the one. If its every toon you have may be its not the toon's but rather the player behind them.
Or not either way this is not an attack but i can agree and chime in on the not a issue for me wagon. If its a matter of time taken of what i can see even for my self. I set the normal/advanced/elite based on what time i have and what i want to face that's why its there, and it is my responsibility to govern my time and how much i have to wast and not the game to come to my desired play and outcome.
This feels like one of the few legitimate cases of "git gud" as a valid response, though this comes with the caveat that initially, Hirogen were never encountered in large groups with multiple instances of subnuke.
A minor gameplay balance concern may need to be addressed there, but generally, buff stripping is a perfectly valid tool in an NPC's toolbox to provide challenge for a player, and a single instance of subnuke both has a very long cooldown (I've never seen an NPC pop it twice even in the olden days) and has a solid counter to eliminate the cooldown debuff it places on you. Even in large groups, the NPCs aren't smart enough to space out their 'nukes, so it's usually just a matter of watching for the purple clocks and popping Sci Team, then carrying on with business as usual.
Well, if the game followed lore on this. Hirogen seldom act in packs larger than three, and that's only when one proves themselves to be an Alpha. Then they all live on the same ship. Also, they're hunters. They seldom engage in space combat. They are more infiltrate, abduct, and scram to the predetermined planet to begin the hunt.
But, since that wouldn't be good for the game, they're just like any other npc. Most times if you stay out of the front arc of the enemy, they're just target practice. Nothing to worry about at all.
Vaaduar artillery, ehh.. wait for them to pop it on your location, tap Evasive, or another speed buff, and you're out of range and it becomes useless.
Voth shield, ehh, same, pop a speed boost, jump to the other side of it, and gun them down. Nothing to worry about.
This applies to almost every enemy you will run into in space. The only one where this doesn't really work as well is Tzenkethi. Which they're frontal arc is the weakest. Again, game design as most mobs are all frontal assault types any how. I mean, have you ever seen a NPC use FAW? I've been playing since 2012, and I can't say I've ever seen this.
If the problem is more spawning in while you fighting that group. The simple solution, move away from the spawn point. If you elect to fight them where you know more will spawn in, and you're facing a situation like this. Then the fault is your's and your's alone. Stop blaming the game for a situation that you put yourself in, one that you can easily control.
Now I'm not telling anyone to 'git gud' as other's would say. I'm saying you should try applying some thought to what you're doing. This will serve you far better than 'git gud' ever will.
quite a few enemy groups use FAW as their weapon enhancer, like the borg - at least on cubes
i believe the iconians and voth do too (and they also use BO, which can catch you off guard if they use it right after a CPB, because unlike the player version, that will ALWAYS strip your shields clean off if it catches you), and MAYBE the hirogen...i'm not sure on that last one
other groups too, as mentioned, but i can't think of any right now
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I thought that by closing to very close range on the Vaadwuar Artillery Ships pretty much negated them. Compared to when they first released when they were a PITA, they go down like the Voth Dreadnoughts in the Undine BZ Counterattack Phase.
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I thought that by closing to very close range on the Vaadwuar Artillery Ships pretty much negated them. Compared to when they first released when they were a PITA, they go down like the Voth Dreadnoughts in the Undine BZ Counterattack Phase.
Can't say for sure. But it may have a minimum range of 5km on it. But, in either case, it's not exactly hard to just move out of the area of it.
Again, you're not getting hit with 8 sub nukes at once. But when there are 12 hirogen ships and most of them have sub nukes, it is possible to get hit with 8 total over the course of the battle. Stop acting like magically no content exists where you will fight more than 4 hirogen ships.
Except it doesn't work that way.
The AI just isn't that good.. they all fire their nukes within the first few seconds of the battle.. it's easy to avoid if you hold your cleanse for a few seconds.
And even if you don't.. what's the worst case? You get debuffed for a few seconds? So what? Just stay alive until you can counter it or it expires.
Stop making this out to be some huge game breaking balance issue, it's trivial at best. I'm not one to use the 'get good' argument, but if you really have that hard of a time with it then you should avoid this content.
Again, you're not getting hit with 8 sub nukes at once. But when there are 12 hirogen ships and most of them have sub nukes, it is possible to get hit with 8 total over the course of the battle. Stop acting like magically no content exists where you will fight more than 4 hirogen ships.
Except it doesn't work that way.
The AI just isn't that good.. they all fire their nukes within the first few seconds of the battle.. it's easy to avoid if you hold your cleanse for a few seconds.
And even if you don't.. what's the worst case? You get debuffed for a few seconds? So what? Just stay alive until you can counter it or it expires.
Stop making this out to be some huge game breaking balance issue, it's trivial at best. I'm not one to use the 'get good' argument, but if you really have that hard of a time with it then you should avoid this content.
I have not been and never have been making this some huge game breaking issue. I do believe its a balance issue, and a decent one. And its not hard. again and again I have made it painfully clear that ITS NOT DIFFICULT. You pointed out before when I was addressing others ignoring a past point that point had been addressed yet you seem to be not reading my posts all the way through. The Hirogen are not a threat. While they do have buff stripping abilities, their offensive power is lacking, and Sub Nuke can't seem to remove a lot of the defensive things I use, so I'm NEVER IN ANY DANGER. The problem is, that all sub nuke does is kill offensive potential, it lasts 30 seconds, which is actually pretty damn long for an ability of its nature.
So when you say GIT GUD, its meaningless. This was not, and never has been about difficulty. Its about an ability that probably shouldn't be handed out like candy to npcs that are capable of spawning in swarms. Other abilities that might be annoying to players that other npcs have, but usually either have effective counters, (Sci team only clearing once makes it ineffective against groups of sub nukes) or are restricted to much more infrequently spawning ships.
This isn't a case of Oh learn how to play noob. I was commenting on something that hampers players experience. Sure the only penalty is that my energy weapons hit like wet noodles for a bit after I've been hit by a sub nuke and my cooldowns get screwed, the issue is, that either we need an effective counter (Like the suggested relatively minor buff to Sci team) or less NPCs should have it. Like say remove it from Hirogen frigates and either slap it on their battleships or dreads(I think dreads actually have it I think the battleship is the only one that doesn't) or just leave it off of them, and boom suddenly everything is fine and dandy.
Hirogen are just annoying malta operative wannabes who lack the 1 full minute perma hard crowd control and low damage to add insult to injury.
Joke comment aside. I think the problem most people have isnt that they are hard but merely annoying to fight. My exotic builds laugh at them since they rely entirely on debuffs to survive. Science team cooldown becomes the be all end all.
They are insanely annoying in ninth rule though as it can completely ruin an exp run since your forced to slow down to avoid excess subnuc and virus problems. They respawn as fast as you destroy them and the faster you destroy them the more subnucs and viruses they get to bring. If your not directly in front of there spawn though you can still spawn kill a lot of them.
Beyond that imo they are not a fun group to fight. Voth are fun to fight and I even find iconians and currently even moqai klingons are funner since there are multiple counters to there abilities. Hirogen only have 2, stay out of front or science team pretty much.
Thinking of ideas from lots of games for, dunno how long now.
Hirogen are just annoying malta operative wannabes who lack the 1 full minute perma hard crowd control and low damage to add insult to injury.
Joke comment aside. I think the problem most people have isnt that they are hard but merely annoying to fight. My exotic builds laugh at them since they rely entirely on debuffs to survive. Science team cooldown becomes the be all end all.
They are insanely annoying in ninth rule though as it can completely ruin an exp run since your forced to slow down to avoid excess subnuc and virus problems. They respawn as fast as you destroy them and the faster you destroy them the more subnucs and viruses they get to bring. If your not directly in front of there spawn though you can still spawn kill a lot of them.
Beyond that imo they are not a fun group to fight. Voth are fun to fight and I even find iconians and currently even moqai klingons are funner since there are multiple counters to there abilities. Hirogen only have 2, stay out of front or science team pretty much.
I think it's a tad harsh to call for a nerf on NPC's which, have access to the same powers as we do, albeit use them poorly in comparison, considering a single Player can wipe an armada of NPC's. This is not a case of 'git gud', this is a case of learn to adapt. If the game doesn't present even a bit of a challenge, why bother? It certainly ups the entertainment value when you have an NPC that is more useful than a chocolate fireguard.
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I think it's a tad harsh to call for a nerf on NPC's which, have access to the same powers as we do, albeit use them poorly in comparison, considering a single Player can wipe an armada of NPC's. This is not a case of 'git gud', this is a case of learn to adapt. If the game doesn't present even a bit of a challenge, why bother? It certainly ups the entertainment value when you have an NPC that is more useful than a chocolate fireguard.
Except there is no challenge in this. The NPC's hit like wet toilet paper, and they have an ability that was only ever designed to be used by small groups. The issue comes in when you face far larger groups than usual. I don't understand this argument of "Challenge" The hirogen are one of the weakest offensive enemies, the only thing they have going for them is that they are annoying due to sub nucleonic beam. There is a loss of entertainment value when fighting them because of this.
about the only truly dangerous thing the hirogen bring to the field is the photonic shockwave off the battleship - that can one-shot you if it catches a downed shield facing, especially when it crits (which, thankfully, rarely happens)
A normie goes "Oh, what's this?"
An otaku goes "UwU, what's this?"
A furry goes "OwO, what's this?"
A werewolf goes "Awoo, what's this?"
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Passion and Serenity are one.
I gain power by understanding both.
In the chaos of their battle, I bring order.
I am a shadow, darkness born from light.
The Force is united within me.
They are insanely annoying in ninth rule though as it can completely ruin an exp run since your forced to slow down to avoid excess subnuc and virus problems. They respawn as fast as you destroy them and the faster you destroy them the more subnucs and viruses they get to bring. If your not directly in front of there spawn though you can still spawn kill a lot of them.
I've fought my fair share of hirogen in this game and I've seen quite a few bugs in my time with this game, some fairly mild, some of them at "OMG I JUST BLEW UP THE SERVER" level. I have over 5500 hours into this game on my main toon alone over the years with at least 1200 of those hours spent testing things for bug hunting purposes. I say that not to toot my own horn but to make a point. In that time I've seen alot of weird and strange interactions, some that I can talk about, and some I'm still under NDA about. Yet in all that time I have never once seen the hirogen spam sub-nuc as often as some folks in here are claiming they do, not even on elite. You might see a few sub-nucs close together as that is absolutely possible. However they do not, nor have they ever spammed the ability. If you're saying they are spamming the power, this would mean there is a bug somewhere and I would need to see evidence of that. If you can get me evidence to suggest they're spamming the ability too often, then I can review said evidence and fire off a bug report if the evidence proves valid. Otherwise I'm not seeing an issue that can't be readily solved with a strategy and/or build change.
I have not been and never have been making this some huge game breaking issue. I do believe its a balance issue, and a decent one. And its not hard. again and again I have made it painfully clear that ITS NOT DIFFICULT.
This isn't a case of Oh learn how to play noob. I was commenting on something that hampers players experience. Sure the only penalty is that my energy weapons hit like wet noodles for a bit after I've been hit by a sub nuke and my cooldowns get screwed, the issue is, that either we need an effective counter (Like the suggested relatively minor buff to Sci team) or less NPCs should have it. Like say remove it from Hirogen frigates and either slap it on their battleships or dreads(I think dreads actually have it I think the battleship is the only one that doesn't) or just leave it off of them, and boom suddenly everything is fine and dandy.
Unpopular truth, simply because a particular foe is annoying does not mean there is a balance issue. No matter the build you use, you will never be able to stop all debuffs all of the time. You are going to eat one or perhaps several debuffs at some point. There is nothing you can do about that. Unless they've started rapid firing sub-nucs, the hirogen are fine they way they are. Folks just need to adjust their strategy and/or build.
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You're really missing westx211's point, darkblade. They're not focusing on it being a balance issue, they're focusing on it being a PERSONAL EXPERIENCE issue.
Also, nobody has said anything about enemies using SNB more frequently than they should. They're talking about HOW FREQUENTLY enemies with SNB SPAWN. The Ninth Rule is a particularly egregious example of this point.
This thread kind of reminds me of one of the earlier iterations of the Undine Battlezone.. where battleships would spam out their fluidic grav well the moment they spawned. You sometimes get two at once these days, but they put in some kind of logic that tries to only permit one anomaly being active in a given area at a time.
The only other idea I've got for this situation might be to propose a 5-10 second subnuke immunity after you've been hit by one. This would give you a window to use your stuff before everything gets purged again by fresh spawns.
I would like to know the opinion of the npcs, these poor dudes who are the targets of so many skills at the same time. they should ask to the devs, a nerf; the players are too annoying.
a good balance for the game should be to make the npc's as powerful than us in term of skills.
[hand on mod sword] guys, leave the personal insults and stuff out of this. if folks can't debate civilly I will not hesitate to lock this thread. [hand off sword] Now moving on.
You're really missing westx211's point, darkblade. They're not focusing on it being a balance issue, they're focusing on it being a PERSONAL EXPERIENCE issue.
Also, nobody has said anything about enemies using SNB more frequently than they should. They're talking about HOW FREQUENTLY enemies with SNB SPAWN. The Ninth Rule is a particularly egregious example of this point.
westx211 himself stated in plain black and white he thought it was a balance issue as quoted above. He stated he thought it was a balance issue and went on to describe how it hampered player experience. Again, simply because a certain foe is annoying to people does not mean they're unbalanced or that a balance issue is at play. Sometimes it really is a case of folks need to adjust their build and/or strategy for engaging a certain foe and a player issue instead of a game issue. I know that's not a popular statement but it's the truth.
Hirogen simply do not spam sub-nuc as often as westx211 and others are suggesting, not even on elite or elite Ninth Rule. The AI and power itself simply does not work the way folks are suggesting it does. I run elites on a regular basis and have put well over 1200 hours of testing into this game on my main toon alone. I am telling you based on that experience and everything I have learned from the devs as far as to how certain interactions are supposed to work, sub-nuc and the AI simply are not designed to fire the power that often. If someone is saying they are firing it that often, then they would need to get me some evidence of it so I can report it as that would be a bug.
You're never going to be able to stop 100% of debuffs 100% of the time and you are going to eat a debuff at some point as that's just part of the game. Myself and others have handed out strategies to beat the hirogen, and even offered to help folks adjust their builds if necessary. If folks don't want to listen that's their choice. However at the end of the day, simply because they had a bad experience with a foe or because they find a certain foe annoying does not automatically mean balance issue.
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rattler2Member, Star Trek Online ModeratorPosts: 58,582Community Moderator
I think it might be abit of both if you think about it.
Say you manage to clear the Subnuc from the first group then kill it. Next group comes in, sees you have buffs and... subnuc as they are fresh with no abilities on cooldown.
I think that's the core issue here.
Ultimately its probably due to how powerful players are that this comes up. An average player may not be able to knock down a whole group as quickly as a high end player, and thus the fresh subnucs aren't as much of an issue as it would be for someone who can practically solo Infected.
I think it might be abit of both if you think about it.
Say you manage to clear the Subnuc from the first group then kill it. Next group comes in, sees you have buffs and... subnuc as they are fresh with no abilities on cooldown.
I think that's the core issue here.
Ultimately its probably due to how powerful players are that this comes up. An average player may not be able to knock down a whole group as quickly as a high end player, and thus the fresh subnucs aren't as much of an issue as it would be for someone who can practically solo Infected.
A player can obtain a full set of mk xii very rare purple gear from mission rewards and kit out an entire ship with them. No it may not be a full build of mk xv epic golds, but those builds can easily bust 30k given proper piloting. The piloting will come in time if not already present. That 30k is enough to obliterate foes on normal difficulty, and get you through most advanced queues with no issue. So folks do not need to be able to pull 100k+ DPS to dispatch hirogen effectively on normal or advanced.
Far as the fresh group example goes, your description tells me our hypothetical user has hit a bunch of buffs towards the end of a group which is always a bad idea when fighting hirogen, as again putting all eggs in one basket. If they get sub-nuced in that point that's on the player, not the hirogen. By the point the new group comes in their sci team should be off cooldown. Regardless of difficulty you don't want to put all your eggs in one basket which is what it sounds like alot of people have done, then paid the price for it.
"Someone once told me that time was a predator that stalked us all our lives. I rather believe that time is a companion who goes with us on the journey and reminds us to cherish every moment, because it will never come again." - Jean Luc Picard in Star Trek Generations
> @rattler2 said: > I think it might be abit of both if you think about it. > > Say you manage to clear the Subnuc from the first group then kill it. Next group comes in, sees you have buffs and... subnuc as they are fresh with no abilities on cooldown. > > I think that's the core issue here. > > Ultimately its probably due to how powerful players are that this comes up. An average player may not be able to knock down a whole group as quickly as a high end player, and thus the fresh subnucs aren't as much of an issue as it would be for someone who can practically solo Infected.
I think it might be abit of both if you think about it.
Say you manage to clear the Subnuc from the first group then kill it. Next group comes in, sees you have buffs and... subnuc as they are fresh with no abilities on cooldown.
I think that's the core issue here.
Ultimately its probably due to how powerful players are that this comes up. An average player may not be able to knock down a whole group as quickly as a high end player, and thus the fresh subnucs aren't as much of an issue as it would be for someone who can practically solo Infected.
That's how it should be though (and also my experience). Whether this is happening only to very powerful players or also less powerful ones isn't that relevant in my opinion.
The fact then is that new enemies use the same abilities as the previous ones. Which is nothing but logical, since those same enemies reward the same amount of XP that people are after when they play this content.
I would like to know the opinion of the npcs, these poor dudes who are the targets of so many skills at the same time. they should ask to the devs, a nerf; the players are too annoying.
a good balance for the game should be to make the npc's as powerful than us in term of skills.
I agree with this, players suck, we should nerf them as well. I mean five players wiping out whole armada's that's waaaaaaaay too unbalanced and some players can wipe out whole TFO's alone.
Now back to the topic at hand. This Nerf v. Get gud issue.
I personally cant attest to player problems like the ones the OP is stating, since I don't have them. I can't see myself coming to understand them either. So my response is only based on my experience as everyone's response is based in some iteration of their experience.
So how is it that to perfectly reasonable people, as you forumites tend to be, a response like "Get better / get gud" (Which you literally can do, and only requires you to change your game play and increase your own value within the purview of the game and does not alter the game in anyway for anyone else that may actually enjoy the content) Is not a valid response but "Remove / Nerf this piece of content" (Which lowers the value of the game experience and deprives other players of the content because you specifically have a problem with it; so you personally don't have to improve, just everything else should be at a level you specifically as a single player or a single group of players should personally feel comfortable with) is a perfectly reasonable response.
It's as if players when it comes to themselves don't have any sense of irony in any real sense of the word. It makes more sense to nerf or remove or dumb down the content for everyone then for you to personally improve on your own end to fight a foe that appears less then 19% of the times you do a handful specific patrols .
As I said before, in my experience this is not a problem. Sub nuke does not slow me down in anyway, ninth rule, is just as simple click and forget as any of the other content. I personally do so much damage that I don't see where you guys are coming from. So if they nerf it or not will not change anything in my game play. My only issue is with the idea that your opinion that it needs to be nerfed is as if not more valid then the reasonable opinion of you need to play better.
Some will say, we are doing this for the new players, to help them with game content. Yeah? Well why would you need to get better? If you are going to just dumb the game down to my standards why would I need to rise up? Your very actions are giving you the very same response you don't want to hear of "Well i can play the game in a teir X with white teir X weapons and consoles and still be fine" because literally nerfing the game allows you to do that which you hate hearing people say. it's a circle. I mean its obvious.
Generally speaking if you can't do content at one point you can improve then do the content. You don't have to ruin it for everyone else to make it inclusive. You're just not due everything at all times.
Now back to the topic at hand. This Nerf v. Get gud issue.
I personally cant attest to player problems like the ones the OP is stating, since I don't have them. I can't see myself coming to understand them either. So my response is only based on my experience as everyone's response is based in some iteration of their experience.
So how is it that to perfectly reasonable people, as you forumites tend to be, a response like "Get better / get gud" (Which you literally can do, and only requires you to change your game play and increase your own value within the purview of the game and does not alter the game in anyway for anyone else that may actually enjoy the content) Is not a valid response but "Remove / Nerf this piece of content" (Which lowers the value of the game experience and deprives other players of the content because you specifically have a problem with it; so you personally don't have to improve, just everything else should be at a level you specifically as a single player or a single group of players should personally feel comfortable with) is a perfectly reasonable response.
It's as if players when it comes to themselves don't have any sense of irony in any real sense of the word. It makes more sense to nerf or remove or dumb down the content for everyone then for you to personally improve on your own end to fight a foe that appears less then 19% of the times you do a handful specific patrols .
As I said before, in my experience this is not a problem. Sub nuke does not slow me down in anyway, ninth rule, is just as simple click and forget as any of the other content. I personally do so much damage that I don't see where you guys are coming from. So if they nerf it or not will not change anything in my game play. My only issue is with the idea that your opinion that it needs to be nerfed is as if not more valid then the reasonable opinion of you need to play better.
Some will say, we are doing this for the new players, to help them with game content. Yeah? Well why would you need to get better? If you are going to just dumb the game down to my standards why would I need to rise up? Your very actions are giving you the very same response you don't want to hear of "Well i can play the game in a teir X with white teir X weapons and consoles and still be fine" because literally nerfing the game allows you to do that which you hate hearing people say. it's a circle. I mean its obvious.
Generally speaking if you can't do content at one point you can improve then do the content. You don't have to ruin it for everyone else to make it inclusive. You're just not due everything at all times.
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Just stop with that already.
A minor gameplay balance concern may need to be addressed there, but generally, buff stripping is a perfectly valid tool in an NPC's toolbox to provide challenge for a player, and a single instance of subnuke both has a very long cooldown (I've never seen an NPC pop it twice even in the olden days) and has a solid counter to eliminate the cooldown debuff it places on you. Even in large groups, the NPCs aren't smart enough to space out their 'nukes, so it's usually just a matter of watching for the purple clocks and popping Sci Team, then carrying on with business as usual.
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I would be interested if this is just one toon you have with this issue or every toon? If just a few then i would say look in to why only them or the one. If its every toon you have may be its not the toon's but rather the player behind them.
Or not either way this is not an attack but i can agree and chime in on the not a issue for me wagon. If its a matter of time taken of what i can see even for my self. I set the normal/advanced/elite based on what time i have and what i want to face that's why its there, and it is my responsibility to govern my time and how much i have to wast and not the game to come to my desired play and outcome.
Well, if the game followed lore on this. Hirogen seldom act in packs larger than three, and that's only when one proves themselves to be an Alpha. Then they all live on the same ship. Also, they're hunters. They seldom engage in space combat. They are more infiltrate, abduct, and scram to the predetermined planet to begin the hunt.
But, since that wouldn't be good for the game, they're just like any other npc. Most times if you stay out of the front arc of the enemy, they're just target practice. Nothing to worry about at all.
Vaaduar artillery, ehh.. wait for them to pop it on your location, tap Evasive, or another speed buff, and you're out of range and it becomes useless.
Voth shield, ehh, same, pop a speed boost, jump to the other side of it, and gun them down. Nothing to worry about.
This applies to almost every enemy you will run into in space. The only one where this doesn't really work as well is Tzenkethi. Which they're frontal arc is the weakest. Again, game design as most mobs are all frontal assault types any how. I mean, have you ever seen a NPC use FAW? I've been playing since 2012, and I can't say I've ever seen this.
If the problem is more spawning in while you fighting that group. The simple solution, move away from the spawn point. If you elect to fight them where you know more will spawn in, and you're facing a situation like this. Then the fault is your's and your's alone. Stop blaming the game for a situation that you put yourself in, one that you can easily control.
Now I'm not telling anyone to 'git gud' as other's would say. I'm saying you should try applying some thought to what you're doing. This will serve you far better than 'git gud' ever will.
i believe the iconians and voth do too (and they also use BO, which can catch you off guard if they use it right after a CPB, because unlike the player version, that will ALWAYS strip your shields clean off if it catches you), and MAYBE the hirogen...i'm not sure on that last one
other groups too, as mentioned, but i can't think of any right now
#LegalizeAwoo
A normie goes "Oh, what's this?"
An otaku goes "UwU, what's this?"
A furry goes "OwO, what's this?"
A werewolf goes "Awoo, what's this?"
"It's nothing personal, I just don't feel like I've gotten to know a person until I've sniffed their crotch."
"We said 'no' to Mr. Curiosity. We're not home. Curiosity is not welcome, it is not to be invited in. Curiosity...is bad. It gets you in trouble, it gets you killed, and more importantly...it makes you poor!"
l don't know.
l really don't know what l'm about to say, except l have a feeling about it.
That l must repeat the words that come without my knowledge.'
Can't say for sure. But it may have a minimum range of 5km on it. But, in either case, it's not exactly hard to just move out of the area of it.
Except it doesn't work that way.
The AI just isn't that good.. they all fire their nukes within the first few seconds of the battle.. it's easy to avoid if you hold your cleanse for a few seconds.
And even if you don't.. what's the worst case? You get debuffed for a few seconds? So what? Just stay alive until you can counter it or it expires.
Stop making this out to be some huge game breaking balance issue, it's trivial at best. I'm not one to use the 'get good' argument, but if you really have that hard of a time with it then you should avoid this content.
I have not been and never have been making this some huge game breaking issue. I do believe its a balance issue, and a decent one. And its not hard. again and again I have made it painfully clear that ITS NOT DIFFICULT. You pointed out before when I was addressing others ignoring a past point that point had been addressed yet you seem to be not reading my posts all the way through. The Hirogen are not a threat. While they do have buff stripping abilities, their offensive power is lacking, and Sub Nuke can't seem to remove a lot of the defensive things I use, so I'm NEVER IN ANY DANGER. The problem is, that all sub nuke does is kill offensive potential, it lasts 30 seconds, which is actually pretty damn long for an ability of its nature.
So when you say GIT GUD, its meaningless. This was not, and never has been about difficulty. Its about an ability that probably shouldn't be handed out like candy to npcs that are capable of spawning in swarms. Other abilities that might be annoying to players that other npcs have, but usually either have effective counters, (Sci team only clearing once makes it ineffective against groups of sub nukes) or are restricted to much more infrequently spawning ships.
This isn't a case of Oh learn how to play noob. I was commenting on something that hampers players experience. Sure the only penalty is that my energy weapons hit like wet noodles for a bit after I've been hit by a sub nuke and my cooldowns get screwed, the issue is, that either we need an effective counter (Like the suggested relatively minor buff to Sci team) or less NPCs should have it. Like say remove it from Hirogen frigates and either slap it on their battleships or dreads(I think dreads actually have it I think the battleship is the only one that doesn't) or just leave it off of them, and boom suddenly everything is fine and dandy.
Joke comment aside. I think the problem most people have isnt that they are hard but merely annoying to fight. My exotic builds laugh at them since they rely entirely on debuffs to survive. Science team cooldown becomes the be all end all.
They are insanely annoying in ninth rule though as it can completely ruin an exp run since your forced to slow down to avoid excess subnuc and virus problems. They respawn as fast as you destroy them and the faster you destroy them the more subnucs and viruses they get to bring. If your not directly in front of there spawn though you can still spawn kill a lot of them.
Beyond that imo they are not a fun group to fight. Voth are fun to fight and I even find iconians and currently even moqai klingons are funner since there are multiple counters to there abilities. Hirogen only have 2, stay out of front or science team pretty much.
Thinking of ideas from lots of games for, dunno how long now.
See this guy gets it.
Except there is no challenge in this. The NPC's hit like wet toilet paper, and they have an ability that was only ever designed to be used by small groups. The issue comes in when you face far larger groups than usual. I don't understand this argument of "Challenge" The hirogen are one of the weakest offensive enemies, the only thing they have going for them is that they are annoying due to sub nucleonic beam. There is a loss of entertainment value when fighting them because of this.
#LegalizeAwoo
A normie goes "Oh, what's this?"
An otaku goes "UwU, what's this?"
A furry goes "OwO, what's this?"
A werewolf goes "Awoo, what's this?"
"It's nothing personal, I just don't feel like I've gotten to know a person until I've sniffed their crotch."
"We said 'no' to Mr. Curiosity. We're not home. Curiosity is not welcome, it is not to be invited in. Curiosity...is bad. It gets you in trouble, it gets you killed, and more importantly...it makes you poor!"
I've fought my fair share of hirogen in this game and I've seen quite a few bugs in my time with this game, some fairly mild, some of them at "OMG I JUST BLEW UP THE SERVER" level. I have over 5500 hours into this game on my main toon alone over the years with at least 1200 of those hours spent testing things for bug hunting purposes. I say that not to toot my own horn but to make a point. In that time I've seen alot of weird and strange interactions, some that I can talk about, and some I'm still under NDA about. Yet in all that time I have never once seen the hirogen spam sub-nuc as often as some folks in here are claiming they do, not even on elite. You might see a few sub-nucs close together as that is absolutely possible. However they do not, nor have they ever spammed the ability. If you're saying they are spamming the power, this would mean there is a bug somewhere and I would need to see evidence of that. If you can get me evidence to suggest they're spamming the ability too often, then I can review said evidence and fire off a bug report if the evidence proves valid. Otherwise I'm not seeing an issue that can't be readily solved with a strategy and/or build change.
Unpopular truth, simply because a particular foe is annoying does not mean there is a balance issue. No matter the build you use, you will never be able to stop all debuffs all of the time. You are going to eat one or perhaps several debuffs at some point. There is nothing you can do about that. Unless they've started rapid firing sub-nucs, the hirogen are fine they way they are. Folks just need to adjust their strategy and/or build.
Star Trek Online volunteer Community Moderator
Also, nobody has said anything about enemies using SNB more frequently than they should. They're talking about HOW FREQUENTLY enemies with SNB SPAWN. The Ninth Rule is a particularly egregious example of this point.
The only other idea I've got for this situation might be to propose a 5-10 second subnuke immunity after you've been hit by one. This would give you a window to use your stuff before everything gets purged again by fresh spawns.
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a good balance for the game should be to make the npc's as powerful than us in term of skills.
westx211 himself stated in plain black and white he thought it was a balance issue as quoted above. He stated he thought it was a balance issue and went on to describe how it hampered player experience. Again, simply because a certain foe is annoying to people does not mean they're unbalanced or that a balance issue is at play. Sometimes it really is a case of folks need to adjust their build and/or strategy for engaging a certain foe and a player issue instead of a game issue. I know that's not a popular statement but it's the truth.
Hirogen simply do not spam sub-nuc as often as westx211 and others are suggesting, not even on elite or elite Ninth Rule. The AI and power itself simply does not work the way folks are suggesting it does. I run elites on a regular basis and have put well over 1200 hours of testing into this game on my main toon alone. I am telling you based on that experience and everything I have learned from the devs as far as to how certain interactions are supposed to work, sub-nuc and the AI simply are not designed to fire the power that often. If someone is saying they are firing it that often, then they would need to get me some evidence of it so I can report it as that would be a bug.
You're never going to be able to stop 100% of debuffs 100% of the time and you are going to eat a debuff at some point as that's just part of the game. Myself and others have handed out strategies to beat the hirogen, and even offered to help folks adjust their builds if necessary. If folks don't want to listen that's their choice. However at the end of the day, simply because they had a bad experience with a foe or because they find a certain foe annoying does not automatically mean balance issue.
Star Trek Online volunteer Community Moderator
Say you manage to clear the Subnuc from the first group then kill it. Next group comes in, sees you have buffs and... subnuc as they are fresh with no abilities on cooldown.
I think that's the core issue here.
Ultimately its probably due to how powerful players are that this comes up. An average player may not be able to knock down a whole group as quickly as a high end player, and thus the fresh subnucs aren't as much of an issue as it would be for someone who can practically solo Infected.
A player can obtain a full set of mk xii very rare purple gear from mission rewards and kit out an entire ship with them. No it may not be a full build of mk xv epic golds, but those builds can easily bust 30k given proper piloting. The piloting will come in time if not already present. That 30k is enough to obliterate foes on normal difficulty, and get you through most advanced queues with no issue. So folks do not need to be able to pull 100k+ DPS to dispatch hirogen effectively on normal or advanced.
Far as the fresh group example goes, your description tells me our hypothetical user has hit a bunch of buffs towards the end of a group which is always a bad idea when fighting hirogen, as again putting all eggs in one basket. If they get sub-nuced in that point that's on the player, not the hirogen. By the point the new group comes in their sci team should be off cooldown. Regardless of difficulty you don't want to put all your eggs in one basket which is what it sounds like alot of people have done, then paid the price for it.
Star Trek Online volunteer Community Moderator
> I think it might be abit of both if you think about it.
>
> Say you manage to clear the Subnuc from the first group then kill it. Next group comes in, sees you have buffs and... subnuc as they are fresh with no abilities on cooldown.
>
> I think that's the core issue here.
>
> Ultimately its probably due to how powerful players are that this comes up. An average player may not be able to knock down a whole group as quickly as a high end player, and thus the fresh subnucs aren't as much of an issue as it would be for someone who can practically solo Infected.
This is exactly what I've been saying.
That's how it should be though (and also my experience). Whether this is happening only to very powerful players or also less powerful ones isn't that relevant in my opinion.
The fact then is that new enemies use the same abilities as the previous ones. Which is nothing but logical, since those same enemies reward the same amount of XP that people are after when they play this content.
I agree with this, players suck, we should nerf them as well. I mean five players wiping out whole armada's that's waaaaaaaay too unbalanced and some players can wipe out whole TFO's alone.
I personally cant attest to player problems like the ones the OP is stating, since I don't have them. I can't see myself coming to understand them either. So my response is only based on my experience as everyone's response is based in some iteration of their experience.
So how is it that to perfectly reasonable people, as you forumites tend to be, a response like "Get better / get gud" (Which you literally can do, and only requires you to change your game play and increase your own value within the purview of the game and does not alter the game in anyway for anyone else that may actually enjoy the content) Is not a valid response but "Remove / Nerf this piece of content" (Which lowers the value of the game experience and deprives other players of the content because you specifically have a problem with it; so you personally don't have to improve, just everything else should be at a level you specifically as a single player or a single group of players should personally feel comfortable with) is a perfectly reasonable response.
It's as if players when it comes to themselves don't have any sense of irony in any real sense of the word. It makes more sense to nerf or remove or dumb down the content for everyone then for you to personally improve on your own end to fight a foe that appears less then 19% of the times you do a handful specific patrols .
As I said before, in my experience this is not a problem. Sub nuke does not slow me down in anyway, ninth rule, is just as simple click and forget as any of the other content. I personally do so much damage that I don't see where you guys are coming from. So if they nerf it or not will not change anything in my game play. My only issue is with the idea that your opinion that it needs to be nerfed is as if not more valid then the reasonable opinion of you need to play better.
Some will say, we are doing this for the new players, to help them with game content. Yeah? Well why would you need to get better? If you are going to just dumb the game down to my standards why would I need to rise up? Your very actions are giving you the very same response you don't want to hear of "Well i can play the game in a teir X with white teir X weapons and consoles and still be fine" because literally nerfing the game allows you to do that which you hate hearing people say. it's a circle. I mean its obvious.
Generally speaking if you can't do content at one point you can improve then do the content. You don't have to ruin it for everyone else to make it inclusive. You're just not due everything at all times.
I know you can't see it.. but I'm giving you a standing ovation.