Forum complains NPC's do not use enough special powers like cloaking etc..
Forum complains when NPC's do use special powers to hide themselves, confuse the player etc.
Making a video game must be hard.. No matter what choice you make, it's incorrect.
Ok, here's a fully developed proposal for my earlier solution to this annoyance some people are having:
New Science DOff
Can have a maximum of 3 active
Uncommon: Science Team gives a 3 second immunity to Subnucleonic Beam
Rare: Science Team gives a 5 second immunity to Subnucleonic Beam
Very Rare: Science Team gives a 7 second immunity to Subnucleonic Beam
Additional DOffs increase duration
This would allow anyone who hates subnuc to buff its counter at the expense of reduced performance in other areas, while not affecting players who don't have an issue with it. I personally haven't had an issue with it, but I'm not gonna just write other players' experiences off either.
Lifetime Subscriber since Beta ^ Click image to listen to my favorite Trek theme song! ^
Ok, here's a fully developed proposal for my earlier solution to this annoyance some people are having:
New Science DOff
Can have a maximum of 3 active
Uncommon: Science Team gives a 3 second immunity to Subnucleonic Beam
Rare: Science Team gives a 5 second immunity to Subnucleonic Beam
Very Rare: Science Team gives a 7 second immunity to Subnucleonic Beam
Additional DOffs increase duration
This would allow anyone who hates subnuc to buff its counter at the expense of reduced performance in other areas, while not affecting players who don't have an issue with it. I personally haven't had an issue with it, but I'm not gonna just write other players' experiences off either.
Or folks could change their strategy for free. They already have the counter they've been asking for in science team. It's just not the form of the counter they want. Simply because it annoys a select few people does not equate to it being unbalanced or otherwise. Folks are not entitled to an issue free run all the time. Myself and others have already said multiple times how to counter it for free without any additional dev time or so on. I really don't understand the want and desire to nerf everything as of late for things that aren't game breaking issues.
"Someone once told me that time was a predator that stalked us all our lives. I rather believe that time is a companion who goes with us on the journey and reminds us to cherish every moment, because it will never come again." - Jean Luc Picard in Star Trek Generations
Now back to the topic at hand. This Nerf v. Get gud issue.
I personally cant attest to player problems like the ones the OP is stating, since I don't have them. I can't see myself coming to understand them either. So my response is only based on my experience as everyone's response is based in some iteration of their experience.
So how is it that to perfectly reasonable people, as you forumites tend to be, a response like "Get better / get gud" (Which you literally can do, and only requires you to change your game play and increase your own value within the purview of the game and does not alter the game in anyway for anyone else that may actually enjoy the content) Is not a valid response but "Remove / Nerf this piece of content" (Which lowers the value of the game experience and deprives other players of the content because you specifically have a problem with it; so you personally don't have to improve, just everything else should be at a level you specifically as a single player or a single group of players should personally feel comfortable with) is a perfectly reasonable response.
It's as if players when it comes to themselves don't have any sense of irony in any real sense of the word. It makes more sense to nerf or remove or dumb down the content for everyone then for you to personally improve on your own end to fight a foe that appears less then 19% of the times you do a handful specific patrols .
As I said before, in my experience this is not a problem. Sub nuke does not slow me down in anyway, ninth rule, is just as simple click and forget as any of the other content. I personally do so much damage that I don't see where you guys are coming from. So if they nerf it or not will not change anything in my game play. My only issue is with the idea that your opinion that it needs to be nerfed is as if not more valid then the reasonable opinion of you need to play better.
Some will say, we are doing this for the new players, to help them with game content. Yeah? Well why would you need to get better? If you are going to just dumb the game down to my standards why would I need to rise up? Your very actions are giving you the very same response you don't want to hear of "Well i can play the game in a teir X with white teir X weapons and consoles and still be fine" because literally nerfing the game allows you to do that which you hate hearing people say. it's a circle. I mean its obvious.
Generally speaking if you can't do content at one point you can improve then do the content. You don't have to ruin it for everyone else to make it inclusive. You're just not due everything at all times.
Well played, sir. Well played!
To get right to it, why are 'Git good', 'L2P', etc. bad? It's dismissive, for one. People sometimes bring up an issue: something they find difficult, or too tedious; or, in this case, simply rather annoying. And what is the usual response? Instead of discussing the matter, in abstracto, without insulting ppl personally, the experiences of the one bringing up the matter are promptly invalidated, with a usual 'Git good' posts (or any variation thereof).
This 'Git good' go-to reply often appears triggered by ppl wanting to take the opportunity to show how good they are themselves. This is exactly the sort of behavior I identified in my first post, when I predicted ppl would soon say something like "Never bothers me, I'm soooo good, I can kill everything immediately!" Which, O, irony, is precisely what you did in your post here too, when you literally said "I personally do so much damage that I don't see where you guys are coming from." And I recently saw someone bring up the old 'Everything can be done with Mk XII weapons' argument again too.
The 'Git good' mentality is never an island, entire of itself. It's invariably larded with (veiled), sarcastic insults, like your "It makes more sense to nerf or remove or dumb down the content for everyone then for you to personally improve on your own." Or stabs like "You don't have to ruin it for everyone else to make it inclusive. You're just not due everything at all times." That's why I congratulated you on a game well played, as you appear to know exactly how to push the buttons the 'Git good' crowd wants to hear.
Now on the facts. Nobody actually said the Hirogen are too difficult. Just annoying. Nor did anyone ask for a nerf. What ppl did try and do, however, like yours truly, is get a more-or-less abstract game-design discussion going on, on whether NPC's in a large numbers each should be allowed to have such powerful abilities like SNB, and whether perhaps a balance should exist between the amount of attacks a group of NPC's can unleash, and the amount of counters a player can pop. Unfortunately, it never got to there, as the 'Git good' replies completely took over.
As for being challenged, it may surprise you to hear, but that's not everyone's game. Some ppl just want to have fun. Like the new TFO. Kael himself said, in the livestream, that it was made specifically for good-old-fashioned pew-pewing. And it is. It's not hard. I did it with me EPG-laden Edoulg. I come in, lay on huge GW3 on them, wait a bit, and then nuke an entire mob with a massive DOC. Is it clever? No. Is it honorable? No. But to hell with honor! It's fun! And there really is something to be said for just mindless pew-pewing. It's almost a sort of hypnotic experience. May not be your thing, but, since turnabout is fair play, why must everything conform to YOUR playstyle?!
Speaking of the new TFO, last night, in channel, someone said he thought the turrets were too many, but chose not to bring it up on the forum, because of realizing they would immediately get blasted by the 'Git good' crowd again. And that is sad.
0
rattler2Member, Star Trek Online ModeratorPosts: 58,832Community Moderator
I have to agree, there are a LOT of turrets. And they do kinda interrupt your ability to get around. Unless you have Competative Engines. But not everyone wants to run Competative Engines.
I have a fleetmate who swears by them, and basically comes close to saying "You're playing wrong if you don't run Competative Engines". I disagree as I kinda like having my full Kobali set. My playstyle is more well rounded, jack-of-all-trades style. Having the extra heals also plays into my playstyle too. I don't want to use a heal as a speed buff because I might need that heal for, you know... an actual heal.
Anyways...the "git gud" lines without actually discussing the thing is rather insulting to the people trying to start a discussion. At least in my opinion. Because it not only implies that the person trying to start the discussion is either not skilled or refuses to learn on their own, it also says to them "I don't care". Which to me makes me wonder... why are you even bothering to respond then?
Its ok as a higher end player to give advice, but its not ok to brush them off because they're not on your level.
I can't take it anymore! Could everyone just chill out for two seconds before something CRAZY happens again?!
The nut who actually ground out many packs. The resident forum voice of reason (I HAZ FORUM REP! YAY!)
normal text = me speaking as fellow formite colored text = mod mode
I really don't understand the want and desire to nerf everything as of late for things that aren't game breaking issues.
My suggestion wouldn't be a nerf to anything except the player's own damage potential, decent builds wouldn't be using them. Not everyone is as good at this game as you or I, and I honestly don't see how adding a doff ability or even a rep, starship, or lockbox trait that might help the lower skilled players, without affecting the medium - high skilled players at all, would be anything but a good thing because it would make the game more accessible overall. And quite frankly several of your posts in this thread have, imo at least, come off as a bit conceited and elitist.
Lifetime Subscriber since Beta ^ Click image to listen to my favorite Trek theme song! ^
I have to agree, there are a LOT of turrets. And they do kinda interrupt your ability to get around. Unless you have Competative Engines. But not everyone wants to run Competative Engines.
I have a fleetmate who swears by them, and basically comes close to saying "You're playing wrong if you don't run Competative Engines". I disagree as I kinda like having my full Kobali set. My playstyle is more well rounded, jack-of-all-trades style. Having the extra heals also plays into my playstyle too. I don't want to use a heal as a speed buff because I might need that heal for, you know... an actual heal.
Anyways...the "git gud" lines without actually discussing the thing is rather insulting to the people trying to start a discussion. At least in my opinion. Because it not only implies that the person trying to start the discussion is either not skilled or refuses to learn on their own, it also says to them "I don't care". Which to me makes me wonder... why are you even bothering to respond then?
Its ok as a higher end player to give advice, but its not ok to brush them off because they're not on your level.
The turrets, IMHO, are just annoying for a Fed player without a cloak, as they simply constantly take you out of full throttle. And, at some point, you do think, "Okay, enough with the turrets already!"
i see the turrets as a sign that anyone with no battle cloak or speed-boosting abilities on their ship may as well just KEEP CALM and STEELMAX! because they can't do jack anyway
A normie goes "Oh, what's this?"
An otaku goes "UwU, what's this?"
A furry goes "OwO, what's this?"
A werewolf goes "Awoo, what's this?"
"It's nothing personal, I just don't feel like I've gotten to know a person until I've sniffed their crotch." "We said 'no' to Mr. Curiosity. We're not home. Curiosity is not welcome, it is not to be invited in. Curiosity...is bad. It gets you in trouble, it gets you killed, and more importantly...it makes you poor!"
Passion and Serenity are one.
I gain power by understanding both.
In the chaos of their battle, I bring order.
I am a shadow, darkness born from light.
The Force is united within me.
0
rattler2Member, Star Trek Online ModeratorPosts: 58,832Community Moderator
I usually end up looking like this because of turrets if I can't get up out of their range.
I can't take it anymore! Could everyone just chill out for two seconds before something CRAZY happens again?!
The nut who actually ground out many packs. The resident forum voice of reason (I HAZ FORUM REP! YAY!)
normal text = me speaking as fellow formite colored text = mod mode
I have to agree, there are a LOT of turrets. And they do kinda interrupt your ability to get around. Unless you have Competative Engines. But not everyone wants to run Competative Engines.
I have a fleetmate who swears by them, and basically comes close to saying "You're playing wrong if you don't run Competative Engines". I disagree as I kinda like having my full Kobali set. My playstyle is more well rounded, jack-of-all-trades style. Having the extra heals also plays into my playstyle too. I don't want to use a heal as a speed buff because I might need that heal for, you know... an actual heal.
Anyways...the "git gud" lines without actually discussing the thing is rather insulting to the people trying to start a discussion. At least in my opinion. Because it not only implies that the person trying to start the discussion is either not skilled or refuses to learn on their own, it also says to them "I don't care". Which to me makes me wonder... why are you even bothering to respond then?
Its ok as a higher end player to give advice, but its not ok to brush them off because they're not on your level.
Emergency power to engines and evasive maneuvers are also a great way to get around them.
There's also a doff that allows you to quickly re-use EM after EptE has been used.
And this is a mission that you have to queue up for (it's not in the random ones as far as I know). So there are multiple ways of dealing with them.
Now back to the topic at hand. This Nerf v. Get gud issue.
I personally cant attest to player problems like the ones the OP is stating, since I don't have them. I can't see myself coming to understand them either. So my response is only based on my experience as everyone's response is based in some iteration of their experience.
So how is it that to perfectly reasonable people, as you forumites tend to be, a response like "Get better / get gud" (Which you literally can do, and only requires you to change your game play and increase your own value within the purview of the game and does not alter the game in anyway for anyone else that may actually enjoy the content) Is not a valid response but "Remove / Nerf this piece of content" (Which lowers the value of the game experience and deprives other players of the content because you specifically have a problem with it; so you personally don't have to improve, just everything else should be at a level you specifically as a single player or a single group of players should personally feel comfortable with) is a perfectly reasonable response.
It's as if players when it comes to themselves don't have any sense of irony in any real sense of the word. It makes more sense to nerf or remove or dumb down the content for everyone then for you to personally improve on your own end to fight a foe that appears less then 19% of the times you do a handful specific patrols .
As I said before, in my experience this is not a problem. Sub nuke does not slow me down in anyway, ninth rule, is just as simple click and forget as any of the other content. I personally do so much damage that I don't see where you guys are coming from. So if they nerf it or not will not change anything in my game play. My only issue is with the idea that your opinion that it needs to be nerfed is as if not more valid then the reasonable opinion of you need to play better.
Some will say, we are doing this for the new players, to help them with game content. Yeah? Well why would you need to get better? If you are going to just dumb the game down to my standards why would I need to rise up? Your very actions are giving you the very same response you don't want to hear of "Well i can play the game in a teir X with white teir X weapons and consoles and still be fine" because literally nerfing the game allows you to do that which you hate hearing people say. it's a circle. I mean its obvious.
Generally speaking if you can't do content at one point you can improve then do the content. You don't have to ruin it for everyone else to make it inclusive. You're just not due everything at all times.
Speaking of the new TFO, last night, in channel, someone said he thought the turrets were too many, but chose not to bring it up on the forum, because of realizing they would immediately get blasted by the 'Git good' crowd again. And that is sad.
Sure, he would have gotten some 'git good' replies.
But he'd also have received serious advice from well-meaning people.
I have to agree, there are a LOT of turrets. And they do kinda interrupt your ability to get around. Unless you have Competative Engines. But not everyone wants to run Competative Engines.
I have a fleetmate who swears by them, and basically comes close to saying "You're playing wrong if you don't run Competative Engines". I disagree as I kinda like having my full Kobali set. My playstyle is more well rounded, jack-of-all-trades style. Having the extra heals also plays into my playstyle too. I don't want to use a heal as a speed buff because I might need that heal for, you know... an actual heal.
Anyways...the "git gud" lines without actually discussing the thing is rather insulting to the people trying to start a discussion. At least in my opinion. Because it not only implies that the person trying to start the discussion is either not skilled or refuses to learn on their own, it also says to them "I don't care". Which to me makes me wonder... why are you even bothering to respond then?
Its ok as a higher end player to give advice, but its not ok to brush them off because they're not on your level.
Emergency power to engines and evasive maneuvers are also a great way to get around them.
There's also a doff that allows you to quickly re-use EM after EptE has been used.
And this is a mission that you have to queue up for (it's not in the random ones as far as I know). So there are multiple ways of dealing with them.
Don't forget Attack Pattern: Omega. IT comes with a speed buff. Not a large one, but one non the less.
I have to agree, there are a LOT of turrets. And they do kinda interrupt your ability to get around. Unless you have Competative Engines. But not everyone wants to run Competative Engines.
I have a fleetmate who swears by them, and basically comes close to saying "You're playing wrong if you don't run Competative Engines". I disagree as I kinda like having my full Kobali set. My playstyle is more well rounded, jack-of-all-trades style. Having the extra heals also plays into my playstyle too. I don't want to use a heal as a speed buff because I might need that heal for, you know... an actual heal.
Anyways...the "git gud" lines without actually discussing the thing is rather insulting to the people trying to start a discussion. At least in my opinion. Because it not only implies that the person trying to start the discussion is either not skilled or refuses to learn on their own, it also says to them "I don't care". Which to me makes me wonder... why are you even bothering to respond then?
Its ok as a higher end player to give advice, but its not ok to brush them off because they're not on your level.
Emergency power to engines and evasive maneuvers are also a great way to get around them.
There's also a doff that allows you to quickly re-use EM after EptE has been used.
And this is a mission that you have to queue up for (it's not in the random ones as far as I know). So there are multiple ways of dealing with them.
Don't forget Attack Pattern: Omega. IT comes with a speed buff. Not a large one, but one non the less.
True and it works great in combination with the other things.
I deliberately left that one out though because it's a lt cmdr ability and therefore may not be usable on all ships.
Now back to the topic at hand. This Nerf v. Get gud issue.
I personally cant attest to player problems like the ones the OP is stating, since I don't have them. I can't see myself coming to understand them either. So my response is only based on my experience as everyone's response is based in some iteration of their experience.
So how is it that to perfectly reasonable people, as you forumites tend to be, a response like "Get better / get gud" (Which you literally can do, and only requires you to change your game play and increase your own value within the purview of the game and does not alter the game in anyway for anyone else that may actually enjoy the content) Is not a valid response but "Remove / Nerf this piece of content" (Which lowers the value of the game experience and deprives other players of the content because you specifically have a problem with it; so you personally don't have to improve, just everything else should be at a level you specifically as a single player or a single group of players should personally feel comfortable with) is a perfectly reasonable response.
It's as if players when it comes to themselves don't have any sense of irony in any real sense of the word. It makes more sense to nerf or remove or dumb down the content for everyone then for you to personally improve on your own end to fight a foe that appears less then 19% of the times you do a handful specific patrols .
As I said before, in my experience this is not a problem. Sub nuke does not slow me down in anyway, ninth rule, is just as simple click and forget as any of the other content. I personally do so much damage that I don't see where you guys are coming from. So if they nerf it or not will not change anything in my game play. My only issue is with the idea that your opinion that it needs to be nerfed is as if not more valid then the reasonable opinion of you need to play better.
Some will say, we are doing this for the new players, to help them with game content. Yeah? Well why would you need to get better? If you are going to just dumb the game down to my standards why would I need to rise up? Your very actions are giving you the very same response you don't want to hear of "Well i can play the game in a teir X with white teir X weapons and consoles and still be fine" because literally nerfing the game allows you to do that which you hate hearing people say. it's a circle. I mean its obvious.
Generally speaking if you can't do content at one point you can improve then do the content. You don't have to ruin it for everyone else to make it inclusive. You're just not due everything at all times.
Speaking of the new TFO, last night, in channel, someone said he thought the turrets were too many, but chose not to bring it up on the forum, because of realizing they would immediately get blasted by the 'Git good' crowd again. And that is sad.
Sure, he would have gotten some 'git good' replies.
But he'd also have received serious advice from well-meaning people.
Like what?! You don't think ppl are using Evasive Maneouvres already? I use it with the Helmswomen Trait, plus the doff. But there really are a GREAT many turrets. Comp Engines do help, as you get a good sudden speed boost. But the stretches between 'points' are simply too long to be perma-covered with Evasive, and the inbetween space is replete with turrets too (and extra ones that will greet you on the hill tops, when you arrive).
And no, in case it wasn't clear, wasn't asking for a nerf. But for a Fed without a cloak, them turrets truly are annoying.
I have to agree, there are a LOT of turrets. And they do kinda interrupt your ability to get around. Unless you have Competative Engines. But not everyone wants to run Competative Engines.
I have a fleetmate who swears by them, and basically comes close to saying "You're playing wrong if you don't run Competative Engines". I disagree as I kinda like having my full Kobali set. My playstyle is more well rounded, jack-of-all-trades style. Having the extra heals also plays into my playstyle too. I don't want to use a heal as a speed buff because I might need that heal for, you know... an actual heal.
Anyways...the "git gud" lines without actually discussing the thing is rather insulting to the people trying to start a discussion. At least in my opinion. Because it not only implies that the person trying to start the discussion is either not skilled or refuses to learn on their own, it also says to them "I don't care". Which to me makes me wonder... why are you even bothering to respond then?
Its ok as a higher end player to give advice, but its not ok to brush them off because they're not on your level.
Emergency power to engines and evasive maneuvers are also a great way to get around them.
There's also a doff that allows you to quickly re-use EM after EptE has been used.
And this is a mission that you have to queue up for (it's not in the random ones as far as I know). So there are multiple ways of dealing with them.
Don't forget Attack Pattern: Omega. IT comes with a speed buff. Not a large one, but one non the less.
True and it works great in combination with the other things.
I deliberately left that one out though because it's a lt cmdr ability and therefore may not be usable on all ships.
True. But there is also the engine battery option.
Also to go with the Competitive Enginees, I wish they' bring back collision damage. See how many people still swear by them, when running into something causes you to blow up again.
I have to agree, there are a LOT of turrets. And they do kinda interrupt your ability to get around. Unless you have Competative Engines. But not everyone wants to run Competative Engines.
I have a fleetmate who swears by them, and basically comes close to saying "You're playing wrong if you don't run Competative Engines". I disagree as I kinda like having my full Kobali set. My playstyle is more well rounded, jack-of-all-trades style. Having the extra heals also plays into my playstyle too. I don't want to use a heal as a speed buff because I might need that heal for, you know... an actual heal.
Anyways...the "git gud" lines without actually discussing the thing is rather insulting to the people trying to start a discussion. At least in my opinion. Because it not only implies that the person trying to start the discussion is either not skilled or refuses to learn on their own, it also says to them "I don't care". Which to me makes me wonder... why are you even bothering to respond then?
Its ok as a higher end player to give advice, but its not ok to brush them off because they're not on your level.
Emergency power to engines and evasive maneuvers are also a great way to get around them.
There's also a doff that allows you to quickly re-use EM after EptE has been used.
And this is a mission that you have to queue up for (it's not in the random ones as far as I know). So there are multiple ways of dealing with them.
Don't forget Attack Pattern: Omega. IT comes with a speed buff. Not a large one, but one non the less.
True and it works great in combination with the other things.
I deliberately left that one out though because it's a lt cmdr ability and therefore may not be usable on all ships.
Yeah, not going to waste a major dmg-boosting attack pattern on a marginal speed-buff (the turn-rate boost of APO is considerable, though).
P.S. I've never seen anyone's build with APO on the LtCmrd seat. For one, it's 2 steps down from APO3, and, except for when you're running cannons, there's little else to slot in the Cmdr seat, but an attack pattern (APO3/APB3). And even with cannons, I recall someone having done the math, and they concluded running APO3 + CSV2 trumps APO1 + CSV3.
Now back to the topic at hand. This Nerf v. Get gud issue.
I personally cant attest to player problems like the ones the OP is stating, since I don't have them. I can't see myself coming to understand them either. So my response is only based on my experience as everyone's response is based in some iteration of their experience.
So how is it that to perfectly reasonable people, as you forumites tend to be, a response like "Get better / get gud" (Which you literally can do, and only requires you to change your game play and increase your own value within the purview of the game and does not alter the game in anyway for anyone else that may actually enjoy the content) Is not a valid response but "Remove / Nerf this piece of content" (Which lowers the value of the game experience and deprives other players of the content because you specifically have a problem with it; so you personally don't have to improve, just everything else should be at a level you specifically as a single player or a single group of players should personally feel comfortable with) is a perfectly reasonable response.
It's as if players when it comes to themselves don't have any sense of irony in any real sense of the word. It makes more sense to nerf or remove or dumb down the content for everyone then for you to personally improve on your own end to fight a foe that appears less then 19% of the times you do a handful specific patrols .
As I said before, in my experience this is not a problem. Sub nuke does not slow me down in anyway, ninth rule, is just as simple click and forget as any of the other content. I personally do so much damage that I don't see where you guys are coming from. So if they nerf it or not will not change anything in my game play. My only issue is with the idea that your opinion that it needs to be nerfed is as if not more valid then the reasonable opinion of you need to play better.
Some will say, we are doing this for the new players, to help them with game content. Yeah? Well why would you need to get better? If you are going to just dumb the game down to my standards why would I need to rise up? Your very actions are giving you the very same response you don't want to hear of "Well i can play the game in a teir X with white teir X weapons and consoles and still be fine" because literally nerfing the game allows you to do that which you hate hearing people say. it's a circle. I mean its obvious.
Generally speaking if you can't do content at one point you can improve then do the content. You don't have to ruin it for everyone else to make it inclusive. You're just not due everything at all times.
Speaking of the new TFO, last night, in channel, someone said he thought the turrets were too many, but chose not to bring it up on the forum, because of realizing they would immediately get blasted by the 'Git good' crowd again. And that is sad.
Sure, he would have gotten some 'git good' replies.
But he'd also have received serious advice from well-meaning people.
Like what?! You don't think ppl are using Evasive Maneouvres already? I use it with the Helmswomen Trait, plus the doff. But there really are a GREAT many turrets. Comp Engines do help, as you get a good sudden speed boost. But the stretches between 'points' are simply too long to be perma-covered with Evasive, and the inbetween space is replete with turrets too (and extra ones that will greet you on the hill tops, when you arrive).
And no, in case it wasn't clear, wasn't asking for a nerf. But for a Fed without a cloak, them turrets truly are annoying.
I've been in enough teams where people didn't use it, no (with one of the reasons being that they simply start fighting the Lukara instead of going to the shipyards).
I've just completed a run in a Sci ship, with Discovery reputation engines, high engine power. EptE and Evasive maneuvers was enough to make sure I always arrived first at one of the power stations.
That alone suggests that not everyone is using these things so yes, it would have been good advice.
Now back to the topic at hand. This Nerf v. Get gud issue.
I personally cant attest to player problems like the ones the OP is stating, since I don't have them. I can't see myself coming to understand them either. So my response is only based on my experience as everyone's response is based in some iteration of their experience.
So how is it that to perfectly reasonable people, as you forumites tend to be, a response like "Get better / get gud" (Which you literally can do, and only requires you to change your game play and increase your own value within the purview of the game and does not alter the game in anyway for anyone else that may actually enjoy the content) Is not a valid response but "Remove / Nerf this piece of content" (Which lowers the value of the game experience and deprives other players of the content because you specifically have a problem with it; so you personally don't have to improve, just everything else should be at a level you specifically as a single player or a single group of players should personally feel comfortable with) is a perfectly reasonable response.
It's as if players when it comes to themselves don't have any sense of irony in any real sense of the word. It makes more sense to nerf or remove or dumb down the content for everyone then for you to personally improve on your own end to fight a foe that appears less then 19% of the times you do a handful specific patrols .
As I said before, in my experience this is not a problem. Sub nuke does not slow me down in anyway, ninth rule, is just as simple click and forget as any of the other content. I personally do so much damage that I don't see where you guys are coming from. So if they nerf it or not will not change anything in my game play. My only issue is with the idea that your opinion that it needs to be nerfed is as if not more valid then the reasonable opinion of you need to play better.
Some will say, we are doing this for the new players, to help them with game content. Yeah? Well why would you need to get better? If you are going to just dumb the game down to my standards why would I need to rise up? Your very actions are giving you the very same response you don't want to hear of "Well i can play the game in a teir X with white teir X weapons and consoles and still be fine" because literally nerfing the game allows you to do that which you hate hearing people say. it's a circle. I mean its obvious.
Generally speaking if you can't do content at one point you can improve then do the content. You don't have to ruin it for everyone else to make it inclusive. You're just not due everything at all times.
Speaking of the new TFO, last night, in channel, someone said he thought the turrets were too many, but chose not to bring it up on the forum, because of realizing they would immediately get blasted by the 'Git good' crowd again. And that is sad.
Sure, he would have gotten some 'git good' replies.
But he'd also have received serious advice from well-meaning people.
Like what?! You don't think ppl are using Evasive Maneouvres already? I use it with the Helmswomen Trait, plus the doff. But there really are a GREAT many turrets. Comp Engines do help, as you get a good sudden speed boost. But the stretches between 'points' are simply too long to be perma-covered with Evasive, and the inbetween space is replete with turrets too (and extra ones that will greet you on the hill tops, when you arrive).
And no, in case it wasn't clear, wasn't asking for a nerf. But for a Fed without a cloak, them turrets truly are annoying.
I've been in enough teams where people didn't use it, no (with one of the reasons being that they simply start fighting the Lukara instead of going to the shipyards).
I've just completed a run in a Sci ship, with Discovery reputation engines, high engine power. EptE and Evasive maneuvers was enough to make sure I always arrived first at one of the power stations.
That alone suggests that not everyone is using these things so yes, it would have been good advice.
In truth, I don't use EPtE; I feel it wrecks my EPtW/EPtS combo. But EPtE sure would make you run faster, I'l give you that.
But if you really want to believe that he'd only have gotten 'git good' replies and no meaningful advice, that's fine with me.
I don't particularly care whether anyone thinks that the Forum is just populated by people who are only out to show how amazing they are instead of offering meaningful advice.
Because I know that's not true.
As for the more abstract discussion on enemies using powers and debuffs: I have given a perfectly valid, abstract argument on why the current situation is legitimate. No one - so that includes you - responded to it.
Now back to the topic at hand. This Nerf v. Get gud issue.
I personally cant attest to player problems like the ones the OP is stating, since I don't have them. I can't see myself coming to understand them either. So my response is only based on my experience as everyone's response is based in some iteration of their experience.
So how is it that to perfectly reasonable people, as you forumites tend to be, a response like "Get better / get gud" (Which you literally can do, and only requires you to change your game play and increase your own value within the purview of the game and does not alter the game in anyway for anyone else that may actually enjoy the content) Is not a valid response but "Remove / Nerf this piece of content" (Which lowers the value of the game experience and deprives other players of the content because you specifically have a problem with it; so you personally don't have to improve, just everything else should be at a level you specifically as a single player or a single group of players should personally feel comfortable with) is a perfectly reasonable response.
It's as if players when it comes to themselves don't have any sense of irony in any real sense of the word. It makes more sense to nerf or remove or dumb down the content for everyone then for you to personally improve on your own end to fight a foe that appears less then 19% of the times you do a handful specific patrols .
As I said before, in my experience this is not a problem. Sub nuke does not slow me down in anyway, ninth rule, is just as simple click and forget as any of the other content. I personally do so much damage that I don't see where you guys are coming from. So if they nerf it or not will not change anything in my game play. My only issue is with the idea that your opinion that it needs to be nerfed is as if not more valid then the reasonable opinion of you need to play better.
Some will say, we are doing this for the new players, to help them with game content. Yeah? Well why would you need to get better? If you are going to just dumb the game down to my standards why would I need to rise up? Your very actions are giving you the very same response you don't want to hear of "Well i can play the game in a teir X with white teir X weapons and consoles and still be fine" because literally nerfing the game allows you to do that which you hate hearing people say. it's a circle. I mean its obvious.
Generally speaking if you can't do content at one point you can improve then do the content. You don't have to ruin it for everyone else to make it inclusive. You're just not due everything at all times.
Speaking of the new TFO, last night, in channel, someone said he thought the turrets were too many, but chose not to bring it up on the forum, because of realizing they would immediately get blasted by the 'Git good' crowd again. And that is sad.
Sure, he would have gotten some 'git good' replies.
But he'd also have received serious advice from well-meaning people.
Like what?! You don't think ppl are using Evasive Maneouvres already? I use it with the Helmswomen Trait, plus the doff. But there really are a GREAT many turrets. Comp Engines do help, as you get a good sudden speed boost. But the stretches between 'points' are simply too long to be perma-covered with Evasive, and the inbetween space is replete with turrets too (and extra ones that will greet you on the hill tops, when you arrive).
And no, in case it wasn't clear, wasn't asking for a nerf. But for a Fed without a cloak, them turrets truly are annoying.
I've been in enough teams where people didn't use it, no (with one of the reasons being that they simply start fighting the Lukara instead of going to the shipyards).
I've just completed a run in a Sci ship, with Discovery reputation engines, high engine power. EptE and Evasive maneuvers was enough to make sure I always arrived first at one of the power stations.
That alone suggests that not everyone is using these things so yes, it would have been good advice.
In truth, I don't use EPtE; I feel it wrecks my EPtW/EPtS combo. But EPtE sure would make you run faster, I'l give you that.
I grealy helps indeed.
I haven't used it myself that much until now, but after I bought a Styx and some other rather slow ships, I decided to see how I could increase the average speed of my toons.
To get right to it, why are 'Git good', 'L2P', etc. bad? It's dismissive, for one. People sometimes bring up an issue: something they find difficult, or too tedious; or, in this case, simply rather annoying. And what is the usual response? Instead of discussing the matter, in abstracto, without insulting ppl personally, the experiences of the one bringing up the matter are promptly invalidated, with a usual 'Git good' posts (or any variation thereof).
This 'Git good' go-to reply often appears triggered by ppl wanting to take the opportunity to show how good they are themselves. This is exactly the sort of behavior I identified in my first post, when I predicted ppl would soon say something like "Never bothers me, I'm soooo good, I can kill everything immediately!" Which, O, irony, is precisely what you did in your post here too, when you literally said "I personally do so much damage that I don't see where you guys are coming from." And I recently saw someone bring up the old 'Everything can be done with Mk XII weapons' argument again too.
The 'Git good' mentality is never an island, entire of itself. It's invariably larded with (veiled), sarcastic insults, like your "It makes more sense to nerf or remove or dumb down the content for everyone then for you to personally improve on your own." Or stabs like "You don't have to ruin it for everyone else to make it inclusive. You're just not due everything at all times." That's why I congratulated you on a game well played, as you appear to know exactly how to push the buttons the 'Git good' crowd wants to hear.
A few things here. Saying to play smarter and not harder is not the same thing as saying "git gud noob" or even remotely close to it. I've also yet to see someone say "git gud" or similar. As unpopular as this is going to sound, there are times where the issue is in fact with the player and not the game. Not every foe can be mindlessly blown to bits via spacebar and there are things you must watch for when dealing with those foes. With Hirogen you have to watch out for their sub-nuc, and with Voth you have to watch for their reflective shields. Again simply because something annoys people does not automatically mean there is a balance issue or that it needs to be changed. I know folks don't like hearing this, but there are times when in fact the fault is with something the player is doing instead of the game itself. If your current approach is not working, change your approach and don't play like a one trick pony.
When it comes to hirogen, people have been given counters to sub-nuc multiple times over by myself and others. Folks posted asking for a counter and help, and that help and information was offered. Apparently however it wasn't the solution they wanted. Myself and others in here have offered counters and solutions to get around the sub-nuc people say they're having issues with. If folks are going to make a thread like this asking for help and counters, yet reject all the help and solutions offered to them, I question their sincerity and their true motivations for making this thread to start with. Why post a thread asking for help if they're simply going to reject every attempt at helping them and giving them the information they asked for? When that happens it tells me the person wasn't really wanting help at all, but simply wanted to complain. If they wanted to complain about sub-nuc and say they think it should be nerfed, they're entitled to that opinion, but don't beat around the bush with it, just be honest from the start.
I also brought up the mk xii equipment analogy to demonstrate that folks have the ability to get gear and equipment. If equipment is an issue, folks can ask for help on what they should use for their build and/or look at the mission journal to figure out what rewards will work best with their build. If they are unsure, there are folks like myself and others who have no issues providing information to those who legitimately want/need help. In fact I spent 5 hours the other day helping a person get gear for their ship from missions, as well as crafting a couple of items for them. I helped them get their traits, skills, boff powers, and everything set for what they said they wanted to do, and explained why I recommended the things I did so they would have that understanding of the game and how things work. Point being, folks are not as helpless as some in this thread seem to think they are. The information and help are out there for folks that legitimately want it. If folks choose not to accept the help that's on them. Simply because the information, help, and solutions offered weren't the one's you wanted doesn't mean an attempt wasn't made to help. I can sit here and offer help all day, but if folks don't accept that help and make basic effort to help themselves as well, there's nothing I can do for them. I don't consider myself the best tank in game, not by a longshot. At the same time I know my limits and what I can do. Everything I can do today, other people will be capable of if they apply themselves and try to learn.
If a person's current strategy is not working yet they refuse to change it and are always wanting to blame the game, the problem isn't the game, but the player at that point. I know folks don't want to hear that but it's the truth, the game is not always at fault for issues you're experiencing of this nature. Sometimes it really is the player and they need to change their approach or continue to get stomped.
Now on the facts. Nobody actually said the Hirogen are too difficult. Just annoying. Nor did anyone ask for a nerf. What ppl did try and do, however, like yours truly, is get a more-or-less abstract game-design discussion going on, on whether NPC's in a large numbers each should be allowed to have such powerful abilities like SNB, and whether perhaps a balance should exist between the amount of attacks a group of NPC's can unleash, and the amount of counters a player can pop. Unfortunately, it never got to there, as the 'Git good' replies completely took over.
As for being challenged, it may surprise you to hear, but that's not everyone's game. Some ppl just want to have fun. Like the new TFO. Kael himself said, in the livestream, that it was made specifically for good-old-fashioned pew-pewing. And it is. It's not hard. I did it with me EPG-laden Edoulg. I come in, lay on huge GW3 on them, wait a bit, and then nuke an entire mob with a massive DOC. Is it clever? No. Is it honorable? No. But to hell with honor! It's fun! And there really is something to be said for just mindless pew-pewing. It's almost a sort of hypnotic experience. May not be your thing, but, since turnabout is fair play, why must everything conform to YOUR playstyle?!
Speaking of the new TFO, last night, in channel, someone said he thought the turrets were too many, but chose not to bring it up on the forum, because of realizing they would immediately get blasted by the 'Git good' crowd again. And that is sad.
A comment was made about the hirogen and sub nuc being a balance issue. If that's not suggesting a nerf then idk what is. The problem folks have is that the sub-nuc distribution is already balanced and a counter already exists to it. It's just not the counter they want. You are not entitled to a debuff free run all of the time. Not every foe in game needs to be as big of a joke as the borg to put it bluntly. If the goal is just to pew pew things, then per your own point, you already know of places you can go where you don't have to risk getting hirogen. Solutions to people's issues already exist, they simply don't want to listen to be blunt about it. Simply because some folks are having an issue does not mean there is a balance issue, or too many ships have access to a particular power. No matter how low you put the bar, short of giving folks an instant "i win" button they can press at any time, there will always be people who can't clear the content. It's the same thing that happened with World of Warcraft. Eventually Blizzard put their foot down and said they're not nerfing save for gamebreaking reasons. They gave folks the information and means to better themselves. If people chose not to do it, that was on them at that point. If folks want to just mindlessly pew pew, there are places they can go to do that.
Likewise I could ask why you or anyone else feels sub-nuc distribution needs to change to conform to their playstyle simply because they've had a bad time with it and refuse to change their strategy. I just really do not understand this mentality of late that the game is always at fault and never the player. If folks refuse to alter their strategy when they know it's not working and continue to play like one trick ponies, the problem is the player not the game. That offer to help folks still stands for those that want to learn and want the help. Aside from that idk what else people want. The issue really does not work the way some folks are describing and they can't spam you with sub nucs. if they could I say get me evidence of it.
Finally, in regards to the guy thinking there are too many turrets, he's entitled to his opinion just as folks are entitled to their opinion that it's fine.
I really don't understand the want and desire to nerf everything as of late for things that aren't game breaking issues.
My suggestion wouldn't be a nerf to anything except the player's own damage potential, decent builds wouldn't be using them. Not everyone is as good at this game as you or I, and I honestly don't see how adding a doff ability or even a rep, starship, or lockbox trait that might help the lower skilled players, without affecting the medium - high skilled players at all, would be anything but a good thing because it would make the game more accessible overall. And quite frankly several of your posts in this thread have, imo at least, come off as a bit conceited and elitist.
The problem is you can lower the bar all the way to the basement of Gre'thor itself in the name of accessibility and there will always be people who can't do it, either because they legitimately don't know how, or because they refuse to learn and change their strategy. That is not the fault of the game nor does it require a dev level fix. Folks have offered to help, folks have given information, yet still some folks want to blame the game. Got nothing to do with what skill level you or I are at, and every bit to do with the counter people asked for already exists, it's just not what they want.
Far as being elitist, I'm not going to sugarcoat things, and I don't see what's wrong with expecting a basic minimum amount of effort from people. If their current strategy isn't working, change it. If that still doesn't work we can examine what's going on from there and make adjustments if necessary. If that still doesn't work, then we can discuss the possibility of a bug or balance issue. I just don't see the issue in expecting folks to help themselves a bit at the same time. A change to sub-nuc based on what people are saying in here would effect the entire game, and not just them. I am considering the game as a whole and not just one particular group and balance is a tricky thing. If folks want to think of me as elitist as a result then oh well. I would rather folks be blunt and honest with me, so I grant that same thing in return.
"Someone once told me that time was a predator that stalked us all our lives. I rather believe that time is a companion who goes with us on the journey and reminds us to cherish every moment, because it will never come again." - Jean Luc Picard in Star Trek Generations
A comment was made about the hirogen and sub nuc being a balance issue. If that's not suggesting a nerf then idk what is. The problem folks have is that the sub-nuc distribution is already balanced and a counter already exists to it. It's just not the counter they want. You are not entitled to a debuff free run all of the time. Not every foe in game needs to be as big of a joke as the borg to put it bluntly. If the goal is just to pew pew things, then per your own point, you already know of places you can go where you don't have to risk getting hirogen. Solutions to people's issues already exist, they simply don't want to listen to be blunt about it. Simply because some folks are having an issue does not mean there is a balance issue, or too many ships have access to a particular power. No matter how low you put the bar, short of giving folks an instant "i win" button they can press at any time, there will always be people who can't clear the content. It's the same thing that happened with World of Warcraft. Eventually Blizzard put their foot down and said they're not nerfing save for gamebreaking reasons. They gave folks the information and means to better themselves. If people chose not to do it, that was on them at that point. If folks want to just mindlessly pew pew, there are places they can go to do that.
Likewise I could ask why you or anyone else feels sub-nuc distribution needs to change to conform to their playstyle simply because they've had a bad time with it and refuse to change their strategy. I just really do not understand this mentality of late that the game is always at fault and never the player. If folks refuse to alter their strategy when they know it's not working and continue to play like one trick ponies, the problem is the player not the game. That offer to help folks still stands for those that want to learn and want the help. Aside from that idk what else people want. The issue really does not work the way some folks are describing and they can't spam you with sub nucs. if they could I say get me evidence of it.
Pesonally, I don't even consider their subnuc a true issue (in the sense of needing a 'fix'). A little less subnucs would be welcome, and made me wonder whether perhaps the powers that be should rethink the attack/counter ratio in some missions. But if they don't, that's fine too. Like with the turrets. And just because some ppl suggest there be less turrets, for example, doesn't mean they're asking for a nerf per se. One could, for instance, deploy less turrets, but make the remaining ones a bit stronger. Would be more like smoothing out the TFO a bit. Cryptic steamlines lots of missions almost constantly. Which makes me think the OP should maybe have created this entire thread in one of the TFO 'Feedback' threads, instead. After all, that's what this thread is all about: ppl sharing their experiences (good or bad) with certain missons. But that was up to him, of course.
Speaking of the new TFO, last night, in channel, someone said he thought the turrets were too many, but chose not to bring it up on the forum, because of realizing they would immediately get blasted by the 'Git good' crowd again. And that is sad.
Sure, he would have gotten some 'git good' replies.
But he'd also have received serious advice from well-meaning people.
Yeah "git gud" often involves telling someone HOW to "git gud". If you stop reading when someone tells you you're doing it wrong, well... um... you're doing it wrong.
I have to agree, there are a LOT of turrets. And they do kinda interrupt your ability to get around. Unless you have Competative Engines. But not everyone wants to run Competative Engines.
I have a fleetmate who swears by them, and basically comes close to saying "You're playing wrong if you don't run Competative Engines". I disagree as I kinda like having my full Kobali set. My playstyle is more well rounded, jack-of-all-trades style. Having the extra heals also plays into my playstyle too. I don't want to use a heal as a speed buff because I might need that heal for, you know... an actual heal.
Anyways...the "git gud" lines without actually discussing the thing is rather insulting to the people trying to start a discussion. At least in my opinion. Because it not only implies that the person trying to start the discussion is either not skilled or refuses to learn on their own, it also says to them "I don't care". Which to me makes me wonder... why are you even bothering to respond then?
Its ok as a higher end player to give advice, but its not ok to brush them off because they're not on your level.
Emergency power to engines and evasive maneuvers are also a great way to get around them.
There's also a doff that allows you to quickly re-use EM after EptE has been used.
And this is a mission that you have to queue up for (it's not in the random ones as far as I know). So there are multiple ways of dealing with them.
Don't forget Attack Pattern: Omega. IT comes with a speed buff. Not a large one, but one non the less.
True and it works great in combination with the other things.
I deliberately left that one out though because it's a lt cmdr ability and therefore may not be usable on all ships.
Yeah, not going to waste a major dmg-boosting attack pattern on a marginal speed-buff (the turn-rate boost of APO is considerable, though).
P.S. I've never seen anyone's build with APO on the LtCmrd seat. For one, it's 2 steps down from APO3, and, except for when you're running cannons, there's little else to slot in the Cmdr seat, but an attack pattern (APO3/APB3). And even with cannons, I recall someone having done the math, and they concluded running APO3 + CSV2 trumps APO1 + CSV3.
so, the game must be adapted to your way of playing?
btw, i use APO 3, when my ships have the commander seat. because there are more things to do in this game than only ISA/E, and against the hurg swarmer, this skill is really efficient.
STO is polluted by the borg tfos way of playing, Pew pew against dumb foes. The turrets are not a problem even with a cannon build; I quote again Darkbladejk: Play smarter not harder.
I have to agree, there are a LOT of turrets. And they do kinda interrupt your ability to get around. Unless you have Competative Engines. But not everyone wants to run Competative Engines.
I have a fleetmate who swears by them, and basically comes close to saying "You're playing wrong if you don't run Competative Engines". I disagree as I kinda like having my full Kobali set. My playstyle is more well rounded, jack-of-all-trades style. Having the extra heals also plays into my playstyle too. I don't want to use a heal as a speed buff because I might need that heal for, you know... an actual heal.
Anyways...the "git gud" lines without actually discussing the thing is rather insulting to the people trying to start a discussion. At least in my opinion. Because it not only implies that the person trying to start the discussion is either not skilled or refuses to learn on their own, it also says to them "I don't care". Which to me makes me wonder... why are you even bothering to respond then?
Its ok as a higher end player to give advice, but its not ok to brush them off because they're not on your level.
Emergency power to engines and evasive maneuvers are also a great way to get around them.
There's also a doff that allows you to quickly re-use EM after EptE has been used.
And this is a mission that you have to queue up for (it's not in the random ones as far as I know). So there are multiple ways of dealing with them.
Don't forget Attack Pattern: Omega. IT comes with a speed buff. Not a large one, but one non the less.
True and it works great in combination with the other things.
I deliberately left that one out though because it's a lt cmdr ability and therefore may not be usable on all ships.
Yeah, not going to waste a major dmg-boosting attack pattern on a marginal speed-buff (the turn-rate boost of APO is considerable, though).
P.S. I've never seen anyone's build with APO on the LtCmrd seat. For one, it's 2 steps down from APO3, and, except for when you're running cannons, there's little else to slot in the Cmdr seat, but an attack pattern (APO3/APB3). And even with cannons, I recall someone having done the math, and they concluded running APO3 + CSV2 trumps APO1 + CSV3.
so, the game must be adapted to your way of playing?
Am I supposed to take the bait here? I think I'll pass.
btw, i use APO 3, when my ships have the commander seat. because there are more things to do in this game than only ISA/E, and against the hurg swarmer, this skill is really efficient.
So... you actuallly agree with me then, that APO on the LtCmrd seat is a rather unusual thing to see happen?!
STO is polluted by the borg tfos way of playing, Pew pew against dumb foes. The turrets are not a problem even with a cannon build; I quote again Darkbladejk: Play smarter not harder.
Again I quote myself saying ppl seem to be taking these threads as an opportunity to show how awesome they are themselves. I'm glad to hear the turrets are not a problem for you, though. Thing just is, they weren't for anyone else here, either, btw: ppl just found them annoying. But why should that little fact stop you from making yet another 'pile-on' post, right?
N.B. The first boss-fight of the new Morality mission got toned down a bit too, btw. Why? Apparently Cryptic received feedback on it, and adjusted things. Imagine them just having told those ppl "Play smarter, not harder!"
it's apparent at this point we're just going to keep spinning in circles on this one and this isn't going to go anywhere productive. /thread
"Someone once told me that time was a predator that stalked us all our lives. I rather believe that time is a companion who goes with us on the journey and reminds us to cherish every moment, because it will never come again." - Jean Luc Picard in Star Trek Generations
Comments
Forum complains when NPC's do use special powers to hide themselves, confuse the player etc.
Making a video game must be hard.. No matter what choice you make, it's incorrect.
New Science DOff
Can have a maximum of 3 active
Uncommon: Science Team gives a 3 second immunity to Subnucleonic Beam
Rare: Science Team gives a 5 second immunity to Subnucleonic Beam
Very Rare: Science Team gives a 7 second immunity to Subnucleonic Beam
Additional DOffs increase duration
This would allow anyone who hates subnuc to buff its counter at the expense of reduced performance in other areas, while not affecting players who don't have an issue with it. I personally haven't had an issue with it, but I'm not gonna just write other players' experiences off either.
^ Click image to listen to my favorite Trek theme song! ^
Or folks could change their strategy for free. They already have the counter they've been asking for in science team. It's just not the form of the counter they want. Simply because it annoys a select few people does not equate to it being unbalanced or otherwise. Folks are not entitled to an issue free run all the time. Myself and others have already said multiple times how to counter it for free without any additional dev time or so on. I really don't understand the want and desire to nerf everything as of late for things that aren't game breaking issues.
Star Trek Online volunteer Community Moderator
Well played, sir. Well played!
To get right to it, why are 'Git good', 'L2P', etc. bad? It's dismissive, for one. People sometimes bring up an issue: something they find difficult, or too tedious; or, in this case, simply rather annoying. And what is the usual response? Instead of discussing the matter, in abstracto, without insulting ppl personally, the experiences of the one bringing up the matter are promptly invalidated, with a usual 'Git good' posts (or any variation thereof).
This 'Git good' go-to reply often appears triggered by ppl wanting to take the opportunity to show how good they are themselves. This is exactly the sort of behavior I identified in my first post, when I predicted ppl would soon say something like "Never bothers me, I'm soooo good, I can kill everything immediately!" Which, O, irony, is precisely what you did in your post here too, when you literally said "I personally do so much damage that I don't see where you guys are coming from." And I recently saw someone bring up the old 'Everything can be done with Mk XII weapons' argument again too.
The 'Git good' mentality is never an island, entire of itself. It's invariably larded with (veiled), sarcastic insults, like your "It makes more sense to nerf or remove or dumb down the content for everyone then for you to personally improve on your own." Or stabs like "You don't have to ruin it for everyone else to make it inclusive. You're just not due everything at all times." That's why I congratulated you on a game well played, as you appear to know exactly how to push the buttons the 'Git good' crowd wants to hear.
Now on the facts. Nobody actually said the Hirogen are too difficult. Just annoying. Nor did anyone ask for a nerf. What ppl did try and do, however, like yours truly, is get a more-or-less abstract game-design discussion going on, on whether NPC's in a large numbers each should be allowed to have such powerful abilities like SNB, and whether perhaps a balance should exist between the amount of attacks a group of NPC's can unleash, and the amount of counters a player can pop. Unfortunately, it never got to there, as the 'Git good' replies completely took over.
As for being challenged, it may surprise you to hear, but that's not everyone's game. Some ppl just want to have fun. Like the new TFO. Kael himself said, in the livestream, that it was made specifically for good-old-fashioned pew-pewing. And it is. It's not hard. I did it with me EPG-laden Edoulg. I come in, lay on huge GW3 on them, wait a bit, and then nuke an entire mob with a massive DOC. Is it clever? No. Is it honorable? No. But to hell with honor! It's fun! And there really is something to be said for just mindless pew-pewing. It's almost a sort of hypnotic experience. May not be your thing, but, since turnabout is fair play, why must everything conform to YOUR playstyle?!
Speaking of the new TFO, last night, in channel, someone said he thought the turrets were too many, but chose not to bring it up on the forum, because of realizing they would immediately get blasted by the 'Git good' crowd again. And that is sad.
I have a fleetmate who swears by them, and basically comes close to saying "You're playing wrong if you don't run Competative Engines". I disagree as I kinda like having my full Kobali set. My playstyle is more well rounded, jack-of-all-trades style. Having the extra heals also plays into my playstyle too. I don't want to use a heal as a speed buff because I might need that heal for, you know... an actual heal.
Anyways...the "git gud" lines without actually discussing the thing is rather insulting to the people trying to start a discussion. At least in my opinion. Because it not only implies that the person trying to start the discussion is either not skilled or refuses to learn on their own, it also says to them "I don't care". Which to me makes me wonder... why are you even bothering to respond then?
Its ok as a higher end player to give advice, but its not ok to brush them off because they're not on your level.
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My suggestion wouldn't be a nerf to anything except the player's own damage potential, decent builds wouldn't be using them. Not everyone is as good at this game as you or I, and I honestly don't see how adding a doff ability or even a rep, starship, or lockbox trait that might help the lower skilled players, without affecting the medium - high skilled players at all, would be anything but a good thing because it would make the game more accessible overall. And quite frankly several of your posts in this thread have, imo at least, come off as a bit conceited and elitist.
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The turrets, IMHO, are just annoying for a Fed player without a cloak, as they simply constantly take you out of full throttle. And, at some point, you do think, "Okay, enough with the turrets already!"
#LegalizeAwoo
A normie goes "Oh, what's this?"
An otaku goes "UwU, what's this?"
A furry goes "OwO, what's this?"
A werewolf goes "Awoo, what's this?"
"It's nothing personal, I just don't feel like I've gotten to know a person until I've sniffed their crotch."
"We said 'no' to Mr. Curiosity. We're not home. Curiosity is not welcome, it is not to be invited in. Curiosity...is bad. It gets you in trouble, it gets you killed, and more importantly...it makes you poor!"
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Emergency power to engines and evasive maneuvers are also a great way to get around them.
There's also a doff that allows you to quickly re-use EM after EptE has been used.
And this is a mission that you have to queue up for (it's not in the random ones as far as I know). So there are multiple ways of dealing with them.
Sure, he would have gotten some 'git good' replies.
But he'd also have received serious advice from well-meaning people.
Don't forget Attack Pattern: Omega. IT comes with a speed buff. Not a large one, but one non the less.
True and it works great in combination with the other things.
I deliberately left that one out though because it's a lt cmdr ability and therefore may not be usable on all ships.
Like what?! You don't think ppl are using Evasive Maneouvres already? I use it with the Helmswomen Trait, plus the doff. But there really are a GREAT many turrets. Comp Engines do help, as you get a good sudden speed boost. But the stretches between 'points' are simply too long to be perma-covered with Evasive, and the inbetween space is replete with turrets too (and extra ones that will greet you on the hill tops, when you arrive).
And no, in case it wasn't clear, wasn't asking for a nerf. But for a Fed without a cloak, them turrets truly are annoying.
True. But there is also the engine battery option.
Also to go with the Competitive Enginees, I wish they' bring back collision damage. See how many people still swear by them, when running into something causes you to blow up again.
Yeah, not going to waste a major dmg-boosting attack pattern on a marginal speed-buff (the turn-rate boost of APO is considerable, though).
P.S. I've never seen anyone's build with APO on the LtCmrd seat. For one, it's 2 steps down from APO3, and, except for when you're running cannons, there's little else to slot in the Cmdr seat, but an attack pattern (APO3/APB3). And even with cannons, I recall someone having done the math, and they concluded running APO3 + CSV2 trumps APO1 + CSV3.
I've been in enough teams where people didn't use it, no (with one of the reasons being that they simply start fighting the Lukara instead of going to the shipyards).
I've just completed a run in a Sci ship, with Discovery reputation engines, high engine power. EptE and Evasive maneuvers was enough to make sure I always arrived first at one of the power stations.
That alone suggests that not everyone is using these things so yes, it would have been good advice.
In truth, I don't use EPtE; I feel it wrecks my EPtW/EPtS combo. But EPtE sure would make you run faster, I'l give you that.
I don't particularly care whether anyone thinks that the Forum is just populated by people who are only out to show how amazing they are instead of offering meaningful advice.
Because I know that's not true.
As for the more abstract discussion on enemies using powers and debuffs: I have given a perfectly valid, abstract argument on why the current situation is legitimate. No one - so that includes you - responded to it.
I grealy helps indeed.
I haven't used it myself that much until now, but after I bought a Styx and some other rather slow ships, I decided to see how I could increase the average speed of my toons.
A few things here. Saying to play smarter and not harder is not the same thing as saying "git gud noob" or even remotely close to it. I've also yet to see someone say "git gud" or similar. As unpopular as this is going to sound, there are times where the issue is in fact with the player and not the game. Not every foe can be mindlessly blown to bits via spacebar and there are things you must watch for when dealing with those foes. With Hirogen you have to watch out for their sub-nuc, and with Voth you have to watch for their reflective shields. Again simply because something annoys people does not automatically mean there is a balance issue or that it needs to be changed. I know folks don't like hearing this, but there are times when in fact the fault is with something the player is doing instead of the game itself. If your current approach is not working, change your approach and don't play like a one trick pony.
When it comes to hirogen, people have been given counters to sub-nuc multiple times over by myself and others. Folks posted asking for a counter and help, and that help and information was offered. Apparently however it wasn't the solution they wanted. Myself and others in here have offered counters and solutions to get around the sub-nuc people say they're having issues with. If folks are going to make a thread like this asking for help and counters, yet reject all the help and solutions offered to them, I question their sincerity and their true motivations for making this thread to start with. Why post a thread asking for help if they're simply going to reject every attempt at helping them and giving them the information they asked for? When that happens it tells me the person wasn't really wanting help at all, but simply wanted to complain. If they wanted to complain about sub-nuc and say they think it should be nerfed, they're entitled to that opinion, but don't beat around the bush with it, just be honest from the start.
I also brought up the mk xii equipment analogy to demonstrate that folks have the ability to get gear and equipment. If equipment is an issue, folks can ask for help on what they should use for their build and/or look at the mission journal to figure out what rewards will work best with their build. If they are unsure, there are folks like myself and others who have no issues providing information to those who legitimately want/need help. In fact I spent 5 hours the other day helping a person get gear for their ship from missions, as well as crafting a couple of items for them. I helped them get their traits, skills, boff powers, and everything set for what they said they wanted to do, and explained why I recommended the things I did so they would have that understanding of the game and how things work. Point being, folks are not as helpless as some in this thread seem to think they are. The information and help are out there for folks that legitimately want it. If folks choose not to accept the help that's on them. Simply because the information, help, and solutions offered weren't the one's you wanted doesn't mean an attempt wasn't made to help. I can sit here and offer help all day, but if folks don't accept that help and make basic effort to help themselves as well, there's nothing I can do for them. I don't consider myself the best tank in game, not by a longshot. At the same time I know my limits and what I can do. Everything I can do today, other people will be capable of if they apply themselves and try to learn.
If a person's current strategy is not working yet they refuse to change it and are always wanting to blame the game, the problem isn't the game, but the player at that point. I know folks don't want to hear that but it's the truth, the game is not always at fault for issues you're experiencing of this nature. Sometimes it really is the player and they need to change their approach or continue to get stomped.
A comment was made about the hirogen and sub nuc being a balance issue. If that's not suggesting a nerf then idk what is. The problem folks have is that the sub-nuc distribution is already balanced and a counter already exists to it. It's just not the counter they want. You are not entitled to a debuff free run all of the time. Not every foe in game needs to be as big of a joke as the borg to put it bluntly. If the goal is just to pew pew things, then per your own point, you already know of places you can go where you don't have to risk getting hirogen. Solutions to people's issues already exist, they simply don't want to listen to be blunt about it. Simply because some folks are having an issue does not mean there is a balance issue, or too many ships have access to a particular power. No matter how low you put the bar, short of giving folks an instant "i win" button they can press at any time, there will always be people who can't clear the content. It's the same thing that happened with World of Warcraft. Eventually Blizzard put their foot down and said they're not nerfing save for gamebreaking reasons. They gave folks the information and means to better themselves. If people chose not to do it, that was on them at that point. If folks want to just mindlessly pew pew, there are places they can go to do that.
Likewise I could ask why you or anyone else feels sub-nuc distribution needs to change to conform to their playstyle simply because they've had a bad time with it and refuse to change their strategy. I just really do not understand this mentality of late that the game is always at fault and never the player. If folks refuse to alter their strategy when they know it's not working and continue to play like one trick ponies, the problem is the player not the game. That offer to help folks still stands for those that want to learn and want the help. Aside from that idk what else people want. The issue really does not work the way some folks are describing and they can't spam you with sub nucs. if they could I say get me evidence of it.
Finally, in regards to the guy thinking there are too many turrets, he's entitled to his opinion just as folks are entitled to their opinion that it's fine.
The problem is you can lower the bar all the way to the basement of Gre'thor itself in the name of accessibility and there will always be people who can't do it, either because they legitimately don't know how, or because they refuse to learn and change their strategy. That is not the fault of the game nor does it require a dev level fix. Folks have offered to help, folks have given information, yet still some folks want to blame the game. Got nothing to do with what skill level you or I are at, and every bit to do with the counter people asked for already exists, it's just not what they want.
Far as being elitist, I'm not going to sugarcoat things, and I don't see what's wrong with expecting a basic minimum amount of effort from people. If their current strategy isn't working, change it. If that still doesn't work we can examine what's going on from there and make adjustments if necessary. If that still doesn't work, then we can discuss the possibility of a bug or balance issue. I just don't see the issue in expecting folks to help themselves a bit at the same time. A change to sub-nuc based on what people are saying in here would effect the entire game, and not just them. I am considering the game as a whole and not just one particular group and balance is a tricky thing. If folks want to think of me as elitist as a result then oh well. I would rather folks be blunt and honest with me, so I grant that same thing in return.
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Pesonally, I don't even consider their subnuc a true issue (in the sense of needing a 'fix'). A little less subnucs would be welcome, and made me wonder whether perhaps the powers that be should rethink the attack/counter ratio in some missions. But if they don't, that's fine too. Like with the turrets. And just because some ppl suggest there be less turrets, for example, doesn't mean they're asking for a nerf per se. One could, for instance, deploy less turrets, but make the remaining ones a bit stronger. Would be more like smoothing out the TFO a bit. Cryptic steamlines lots of missions almost constantly. Which makes me think the OP should maybe have created this entire thread in one of the TFO 'Feedback' threads, instead. After all, that's what this thread is all about: ppl sharing their experiences (good or bad) with certain missons. But that was up to him, of course.
hahahaha Yeah "git gud" often involves telling someone HOW to "git gud". If you stop reading when someone tells you you're doing it wrong, well... um... you're doing it wrong.
My character Tsin'xing
so, the game must be adapted to your way of playing?
btw, i use APO 3, when my ships have the commander seat. because there are more things to do in this game than only ISA/E, and against the hurg swarmer, this skill is really efficient.
STO is polluted by the borg tfos way of playing, Pew pew against dumb foes. The turrets are not a problem even with a cannon build; I quote again Darkbladejk: Play smarter not harder.
Am I supposed to take the bait here? I think I'll pass.
So... you actuallly agree with me then, that APO on the LtCmrd seat is a rather unusual thing to see happen?!
Again I quote myself saying ppl seem to be taking these threads as an opportunity to show how awesome they are themselves. I'm glad to hear the turrets are not a problem for you, though. Thing just is, they weren't for anyone else here, either, btw: ppl just found them annoying. But why should that little fact stop you from making yet another 'pile-on' post, right?
N.B. The first boss-fight of the new Morality mission got toned down a bit too, btw. Why? Apparently Cryptic received feedback on it, and adjusted things. Imagine them just having told those ppl "Play smarter, not harder!"
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