However when they introduced randoms, they should have known that this content would become relevant again
They did. In fact, when they first showed off the RTFO system on the live streams they got dropped into a Borg ground TFO and spent some time talking about how awful it was.
And yet nothing is changing. This is unacceptable. I don't want them to commiserate, I want them to act. Not create "hair physics" or repair "warp nacelles animations"
I am glad you are not my boss. They probably have done a cost-benefit analysis on the pros and cons of such a decision, does not mean it is not on their list though.
These things are planned years in advance and they have a small developer team as it is, though they now have a new character artist iirc.
I like animation updates.
As for the RTFO system, it is random, you never know what you are getting, whether it is space or ground. It is actually good that these bugs are being found by players since it then gets added to their bug list to be fixed whenever those are able to be done in their tough schedule. I sometimes think it would be cool to get a little peek through the Cryptic curtain, to realize what their daily routine is like to understand what they go through
Finally, not all of the company did the hair physics and the warp nacelles animations, just the one who does those animations and the other one that is working on repairing warp nacelles animations.
Now the part that makes people quit. How many effects are there that Borg NPCs can use to stop you from jumping/running? I'm pretty sure assimilation nanites do and I know that EG field does. I'm not 100% sure which specific Borg have them though. The best way to do the console puzzle is to have two guys on the center platform shooting Borg. At any rate, making one jump without either mis-timing it or whatever is easy, but having three team members make a series of.. let's see... I count an even 20 jumps each. That's 60 repetitions and if any one of them fails for any reason(player error, Borg attack, lag) then that attempt at solving the console puzzle fails. Honestly this would be made far easier simply by not having it be a lockout. A big part of the problem is that you can't respawn.
I am confused as to why people see this part of the map as such a challenge.
It's not even a 'jump puzzle,' there are cubes that line up so you can practically run across them without jumping. A quick tap of the jump button all but guarantees you will make it.. there is a large area to leap from and a large area to land on. Honestly, the only way this part is difficult is if you do what Kael did and jump from the Ramp. Even that's not bad if you jump from the top.. the reason he made it look so difficult is because for some reason, he jumped from the bottom part of the ramp to try and get up to the cubes. I am baffled why anyone would do this once.. he did it like 3 times and didn't seem to get that you can't jump that way.
I usually don't PUG this mission because for some reason people don't understand the 'puzzle' which still.. isn't even a real puzzle. I would say that Kael made this mission look much harder then it is (which he did) but the truth is, he was a typical PUG and for some reason, many people have these issues with this map.
Personally, I would prefer that some type of explanation be added in instead of having the map drastically altered. Being though as to how Kael failed so horribly and all but demanded it be 'fixed' I am expecting that it will soon be changed to be a quick and brainless auto win map.
You know he had Jesse Heinig sitting next to him telling him what he needed to do right? That more information than can reasonably be expected to be found in mission instructions.
I don't understand why his reaction was 'fix the map' as opposed to 'I need to learn how to play this map.'
Who actually said the map needed fixed? Was it Mike Fatum or was it Jesse Heinig? Jesse mentioned that the dev who designed it doesn't work at Cryptic any more. Well IIRC it was Gozer. Who left a long time ago.
Also this isn't the first time it's come up in a live stream. When Kael was demonstrating the new TFO UI he did a random and got Cure Ground. Jesse had to tell him how to complete the map because it simply doesn't show you most of the objectives. At one point the mission text basically says "shoot the Borg tech" but you don't really have anything showing what bit of Borg tech.
How many kit modules did he use besides the Agony Field Generator(because it looks cool)?
Turrets, especially turrets that don't need line of sight, are good there since adaptation is reset each time you summon a new turret. Part of why I like Crawler mines. Borg have to adapt to each mine individually, but the mines self-destruct.
I recall several people complaining about the "Tenebris Torquent" mission in ViL for similar reasons. There is a short jumping section at the beginning, and I recall a number of people coming onto the forums and complaining they tried this section 10+ times and simply couldn't do it, making the mission impossible to progress for them.
This comparison fails when you realize that the difficulty of jumping in TT is orders of magnitude easier.
1: only one player has to do it
2: there's no timer
3: there's no enemies attacking you
4: it requires 1/4 the jumping(per player, not total, total is around 1/12)
5: it doesn't reset after completion
6: there's no lockout if you mess it up.
This comparison fails when you realize that the difficulty of jumping in TT is orders of magnitude easier.
I think it actually makes the comparison even more valid. If people have a hard time with TT, then what makes anyone think the jumping in the borg TFO, which has all of those additional factors, is even a remotely good idea?
i have not went thru all this thread but i have a question.
Why are the TFO's even in question at this point? If all this about jumping and cant learn and cant try again is the issue then there is a normal mode for it to you know learn. With little to no need to do much other than work as a team and if needed take a min to collect.
on other points in thread.
Those stf's for the borg were hard and i do mean in the past here. It has held the record for me as the longest missions i have ever had the displeasure to play ranking at eight hours for the 2nd of the 3 borg stf's.
If you cant learn the missions why playing them. Open that little window and type in "i have no clew what i am doing" and any player worth there salt can help. with at least basic filler directions.
If you run in to a... less than help full player then muddle thru and read the text it covers what you need to do in general. And look and watch what the players do in the mission.
As to injury well i have even carried extra parts and traded to team mates to heal in the mission. so long as you are willing to take a break to trade out of combat problem solved.
As a side note players get Universal Kit Module - Mudd's Time Device Mk XII. run in front of the other players hit it and then jump off in to the acid. and reappear in front of them. tends to make the other players want to know how you did that. And guess what no respawn needed jumping is taken care of miss and o well.
So yes even a drop in the acid leaves you a chance to learn by mistake now.
So for all old players and new. put down the distractions for the run leave chat out side team to it self. Stop watching the 2nd screen or the ever so nice placed tv with a episode reruns of your favorite older scifi show. Forget the streaming and multitasking and your recordings. put the phone away. Be present and learn some in the game is all it takes to do any mission, event, and tfo we have left.
However when they introduced randoms, they should have known that this content would become relevant again
They did. In fact, when they first showed off the RTFO system on the live streams they got dropped into a Borg ground TFO and spent some time talking about how awful it was.
Oh you got to be kidding me. Would you mind linking it? Because after reading this discussion I would not mind watching it. It took one video to translate awful content to awfully player performance. More examples as to why this content is being labeled “dated” or in need of “fixing” would be greatly appreciated here to clarify. Perhaps basic jumping was not the greatest challenge that had to be faced there so it should be exciting to watch.
This comparison fails when you realize that the difficulty of jumping in TT is orders of magnitude easier.
I think it actually makes the comparison even more valid. If people have a hard time with TT, then what makes anyone think the jumping in the borg TFO, which has all of those additional factors, is even a remotely good idea?
How about the self-respect STO can maintain that pressing the engage button at the start of your gaming session is not the biggest challenge this title provides?
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I'm referring to the name-calling and the unfair accusations. That's insulting and completely unnecessary to making your points. Otherwise, I'm not saying anything about the rest of your critiques.
“Once again, Captain Leaver”.
...its a matter of lazyness...
He really is that terrible. And lazy. Taking time to learn is beneath him.
I have to double check as you quoted two things that I wrote. I don’t understand but would really like to.
Are those examples you bring up from me ok for forums or not?
The reason why I’m confused is because one of the things is a direct 1:1 quote form Keal, from the stream, he said about himself that I put in here. It can’t be a problem or is it?
As for lazy, yea that’s on me. I’m not a native English speaker and tried to find the right word to describe what I saw so I just picked one that was most fitting in my eyes. If somebody plays, well "bad", how am I supposed to describe it around here to be in line?
Post edited by peterconnorfirst on
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I'm referring to the name-calling and the unfair accusations. That's insulting and completely unnecessary to making your points. Otherwise, I'm not saying anything about the rest of your critiques.
“Once again, Captain Leaver”.
...its a matter of lazyness...
He really is that terrible. And lazy. Taking time to learn is beneath him.
You have a point. A wrong point. And here's why.
1. It's not an insult if he refers to himself as that, right as he bails on his team. No communication with his team, just leaves. Same with Terrible Teammate. Titles he christened himself with, and earned fairly. His actions reflect during the TFO. It's not unfair to call out his poor behavior, nor his actions, when there's evidence to back it up, on a livestream. It's perfectly necessary to making my points. Especially if there are people in this thread who missed the details as things were happening during the video.
2. The laziness and/or not taking time to process the information likewise, is backed up by the stream, and I listed each example in a larger paragraph. When he's flailing there, feeding, and complaining about the TFO, blaming the performance on a TFO that didn't glitch, that didn't crash or disconnect him, that ran silky smooth with framerate and responsiveness, rather than owning up, yes. THAT is taking the lazy way out.
3. He's an adult, perfectly capable of explaining himself when he draws heat. Unless you're his mouthpiece now. Or you feel he is a protected class that deserves special treatment or handling, regardless of his actions. Are PWE employees, or Cryptic employees porcelain, above reproach now, regardless of what stunts they pull? Stunts that could very well influence game content in a negative way? And consider this: If it was so blatantly insulting or against the rules, you would have scoured my post, given me demerits, and/or put me in the gulag again for however long.
4. The context of what I state belongs to me, and me alone. If you interpret it wrong, such as here, I am perfectly happy to enlighten.
With IGA (and IGN) the problem is that STO's somewhat random jumping mechanics are combinied with an (practically) instakill pit with no respawns. So for new teams it'll be really frustrating since if 3 people manage to fail the jumping section in bad place it's a party wipe since you can't re-enter the fight if you respawn and only way to reset the fight is thru all the players dying.
In IGN one has forcefields above the acid so one does not even need to jump. One still has to walk over them though.
But lets better not get into that one or we have a discussion on our hands next why still having 3 players of a team pushing buttons at the same time makes that map so "dated" as well.
Sure you can eventually figure out how to do it thru sheer tenacity but I can see why some people could consider it "not worth the effort".
What I like about the boss room in IGA is that it is a true test of character of a player especialy of a team player. You know, not at all the effort to make a 300k DPS build, just your character.
Will you learn to jump or let the others in your team do it?
Will you let your horizon widen a tiny bit to see that the drones respawn pressuring you later on when you kill them all right at the start?
Will you reanimate others in team that have fallen or just ignore them?
Will you learn to play in sync with others or not?
3 out of 5 need to do it. I could certainly understand a reasonable discussion that it would be better if only 2 (or Jesus!) even 1 in a team out of 5 need to do it. I mean that the skill level of the average player dropped sharply the past decade in STO is obvious when you see 3K ISA logs in spite of all the power creep we got in 9 years. But we are ways beyond that one already aren’t we?
I mean we are at "is it ok that we need to jump"?!?
Good lord.
Post edited by peterconnorfirst on
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Look, it doesn't matter whether he gave himself the nickname or not, it certainly isn't being used in a friendly ribbing kind of way here. In conjunction with the scathing critiques, it comes off as demeaning and insulting. And it doesn't matter how you want to paint the picture, calling someone lazy is also an insult. Sure he's an adult that can take care of himself, as is any other user on these forums, but I'm not going to let anyone be insulting to anyone else here either, because it is against forum rules. And consider this: though I may not have scoured any posts, I did consider it. Instead, I decided to ask nicely that people just dial it back a bit. But instead of doing that, you'd rather defend being a TRIBBLE. It's attitudes like that, that cause me to reconsider asking nicely. Fine. Next time I won't bother asking. I'll just hand out the points since that's what you'd apparently prefer.
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I would be happy if they do remove the injury system.
No it does not create *any* challenge at all, unless you're a new player who hasn't learned the mechanics yet. For experienced players it is a minor(though annoying) inconvenience since it is practically negated by the items that cure them.
For new players it makes them do worse and worse, and they probably don't even realize just how bad it is getting, since barely anyone speaks in stfs nowadays.
So there really is no point to the system, all it does is actively make the game less enjoyable to differing degrees.
I feel the same way about the adapt mechanic.
Anytime you play a Borg ground stf, many of the other players are going to be using guns as in, actual guns since the Borg can't adapt to them. The adaptation doesn't make things more difficult, only annoying. The best option has become to simply use stuff that ignores it. Plus they adapt to too many damage types.
The adapt mechanic either needs to be reworked, or just removed.
(Besides we're 40 years in the future or so from when the Borg first appeared, I imagine by now Starfleet wouldve just had autoremodulation built into every single phaser or simply made weapons powerful enough to ignore adaptation)
Men are not punished for their sins, but by them.
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rattler2Member, Star Trek Online ModeratorPosts: 58,603Community Moderator
That is one major issue. No one coordinates. In Infected its practically REQUIRED to coordinate. The problem is no one says anything to get people ready to interact with the console. Its just hit it as soon as you can, and pray that you time it right. And if you miss it... odds are the person's gonna hit it again the second they can, so either hope the console is available or wait a cycle and hope you catch it.
While it has been a LOOOONG time since I ran Kitomer ground, people seem to be somewhat more willing to remember the chat box exists so that they can say when they're ready for the shield to drop. Unless you get someone who goes into the room and just randomly mashes buttons causing random shields to drop all over the room.
the same problem happens in sword...but at least there, despite dialogue indicating otherwise, you actually DON'T have to 'deactivate the other two consoles simultaneously'
A normie goes "Oh, what's this?"
An otaku goes "UwU, what's this?"
A furry goes "OwO, what's this?"
A werewolf goes "Awoo, what's this?"
"It's nothing personal, I just don't feel like I've gotten to know a person until I've sniffed their crotch." "We said 'no' to Mr. Curiosity. We're not home. Curiosity is not welcome, it is not to be invited in. Curiosity...is bad. It gets you in trouble, it gets you killed, and more importantly...it makes you poor!"
Passion and Serenity are one.
I gain power by understanding both.
In the chaos of their battle, I bring order.
I am a shadow, darkness born from light.
The Force is united within me.
What I like about the boss room in IGA is that it is a true test of character of a player especialy of a team player. You know, not at all the effort to make a 300k DPS build, just your character.
Will you learn to jump or let the others in your team do it?
Will you let your horizon widen a tiny bit to see that the drones respawn pressuring you later on when you kill them all right at the start?
Will you reanimate others in team that have fallen or just ignore them?
Will you learn to play in sync with others or not?
This discussion sparked another discussion - in my fleet's discord server. And we decided to give it a go, with one player that never did it before, another one (me) that was very rusty and another one that said "I don't think I've done this before" only to go "ohhh, yeah! I remember it now!".
We had two with us that new what to do perfectly and guided us (or reminded us, in my case) on what to do.
We took our time, saved all 10 crewmen even if we lost the objective for a few seconds. We didn't fail the second optional, though.
And we had four people jumpin for the sake of it. 3 that were pushing buttons, the fourth that was disabling the nodes.
We had exactly one death: mine. I was about to jump, but a teammate bumped into me and slowed me down. Was my fault, though. Instead of stopping I jumped anyway.
We took care of the drones right at the beginning, and then again while destroying the central node (before and little after, too). Manus herself lasted all of 10 seconds, what with pets, pahvo crystals and security escorts... all stuff (except the crystals) that we made sure was off cooldown for the boss fight.
So, yeah. It wasn't perfect, but it was doable and it was not as difficult as many make it sound. Is it annoyin to jump so many times? Yep, it can be.
But you know what our only complaint was? "Why aren't there more respawn points?" That was it.
Again, out of 5 players we had one first-timer, and two so rusty they barely remembered anything.
Difference with Kael's case is: we actually listened to what our more experience teammate was saying, so we could get it right.
Next time we're going in there, we'll get both optionals, no problem.
3 out of 5 need to do it. I could certainly understand a reasonable discussion that it would be better if only 2 (or Jesus!) even 1 in a team out of 5 need to do it. I mean that the skill level of the average player dropped sharply the past decade in STO is obvious when you see 3K ISA logs in spite of all the power creep we got in 9 years. But we are ways beyond that one already aren’t we?
I mean we are at "is it ok that we need to jump"?!?
Good lord.
Agreed. Unfortunately.
Not agreeing with someone doesn't give you the right to be an TRIBBLE.
Ci sono tre tipi di giocatori:
- quelli a cui non va mai bene niente... e vanno sul forum a trollare;
- quelli che sono talmente imbesuiti da credere a qualunque cosa i dev dicano, perfino che la luna è fatta di formaggio... e vanno sul forum a trollare;
- quelli che credono a quello a cui è giusto credere, sono d'accordo con quello con cui è giusto essere d'accordo e sono critici con quello che non va;
Ai giocatori dei primi due tipi, gratis in omaggio un bello specchio lucente su cui arrampicarsi. E una mazzata in testa per la loro poca intelligenza e compassione verso gli altri giocatori che non la pensano come loro.
Agli appartenenti al terzo tipo, invece, dico grazie. Anche se non sempre si riesce a mantenere la calma, siete quelli per cui vale la pena incazzarsi.
This discussion sparked another discussion - in my fleet's discord server. And we decided to give it a go, with one player that never did it before, another one (me) that was very rusty and another one that said "I don't think I've done this before" only to go "ohhh, yeah! I remember it now!".
We had two with us that new what to do perfectly and guided us (or reminded us, in my case) on what to do.
We took our time, saved all 10 crewmen even if we lost the objective for a few seconds. We didn't fail the second optional, though.
And we had four people jumpin for the sake of it. 3 that were pushing buttons, the fourth that was disabling the nodes.
We had exactly one death: mine. I was about to jump, but a teammate bumped into me and slowed me down. Was my fault, though. Instead of stopping I jumped anyway.
We took care of the drones right at the beginning, and then again while destroying the central node (before and little after, too). Manus herself lasted all of 10 seconds, what with pets, pahvo crystals and security escorts... all stuff (except the crystals) that we made sure was off cooldown for the boss fight.
So, yeah. It wasn't perfect, but it was doable and it was not as difficult as many make it sound. Is it annoyin to jump so many times? Yep, it can be.
But you know what our only complaint was? "Why aren't there more respawn points?" That was it.
Again, out of 5 players we had one first-timer, and two so rusty they barely remembered anything.
Difference with Kael's case is: we actually listened to what our more experience teammate was saying, so we could get it right.
Next time we're going in there, we'll get both optionals, no problem.
Thank you for sharing this moment. You and your friends tried, worked together and made it because of it. It’s the best reward a game can grant.
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Look, it doesn't matter whether he gave himself the nickname or not, it certainly isn't being used in a friendly ribbing kind of way here. In conjunction with the scathing critiques, it comes off as demeaning and insulting. And it doesn't matter how you want to paint the picture, calling someone lazy is also an insult. Sure he's an adult that can take care of himself, as is any other user on these forums, but I'm not going to let anyone be insulting to anyone else here either, because it is against forum rules. And consider this: though I may not have scoured any posts, I did consider it. Instead, I decided to ask nicely that people just dial it back a bit. But instead of doing that, you'd rather defend being a TRIBBLE. It's attitudes like that, that cause me to reconsider asking nicely. Fine. Next time I won't bother asking. I'll just hand out the points since that's what you'd apparently prefer.
If I would take my top 10 DPS league build, queue up Infected Space Normal, stream it and see how many AFK penalties I can dish out for the unlucky random team-mates, what would you think of me and how would you describe my behavior in forums if the discussion rises?
If I happen to throw in a nickname at the end, something like “captain DPS to the rescue”, would it relativize or underline my attitude towards other players in your eyes?
Thank you for looking the other way with your point- or penalizing-system and handing out an additional warning instead. There seem to be things/topcis/happenings I better ignore altogether because I have such trouble to find the right words. Thing is just that this feels wrong as well.
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However when they introduced randoms, they should have known that this content would become relevant again
They did. In fact, when they first showed off the RTFO system on the live streams they got dropped into a Borg ground TFO and spent some time talking about how awful it was.
Oh you got to be kidding me. Would you mind linking it? Because after reading this discussion I would not mind watching it. It took one video to translate awful content to awfully player performance. More examples as to why this content is being labeled “dated” or in need of “fixing” would be greatly appreciated here to clarify. Perhaps basic jumping was not the greatest challenge that had to be faced there so it should be exciting to watch.
It was Cure Ground. It took several minutes to figure out which Klingon corpse they missed scanning the first time, 'cause, well.... they're a mandatory objective that isn't marked anywhere and only detectable by pushing the scan key, but only if you're relatively close. Then they got to the part where you had to shoot out some Borg junk and Jesse had to point to it because you had to manually click on it to target it, and there was no objective marker to tell you what piece of Borg TRIBBLE needed to be shot. Oh and the boss fight inevitably had Kael get locked out because he didn't know where the box was gonna spawn.
As for when? I think it was the first livestream either before or after the RTFO system went live. Whenever that was. Not sure if he was playing on Tribble or live.
However when they introduced randoms, they should have known that this content would become relevant again
They did. In fact, when they first showed off the RTFO system on the live streams they got dropped into a Borg ground TFO and spent some time talking about how awful it was.
Oh you got to be kidding me. Would you mind linking it? Because after reading this discussion I would not mind watching it. It took one video to translate awful content to awfully player performance. More examples as to why this content is being labeled “dated” or in need of “fixing” would be greatly appreciated here to clarify. Perhaps basic jumping was not the greatest challenge that had to be faced there so it should be exciting to watch.
It was Cure Ground. It took several minutes to figure out which Klingon corpse they missed scanning the first time, 'cause, well.... they're a mandatory objective that isn't marked anywhere and only detectable by pushing the scan key, but only if you're relatively close. Then they got to the part where you had to shoot out some Borg junk and Jesse had to point to it because you had to manually click on it to target it, and there was no objective marker to tell you what piece of Borg TRIBBLE needed to be shot. Oh and the boss fight inevitably had Kael get locked out because he didn't know where the box was gonna spawn.
Oh thanks for elaborating. It is indeed something I would like to watch.
All common and natural mistakes in that PvE that happen one time if you are a fast and two times if you are a slow learner.
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Look, it doesn't matter whether he gave himself the nickname or not, it certainly isn't being used in a friendly ribbing kind of way here. In conjunction with the scathing critiques, it comes off as demeaning and insulting. And it doesn't matter how you want to paint the picture, calling someone lazy is also an insult. Sure he's an adult that can take care of himself, as is any other user on these forums, but I'm not going to let anyone be insulting to anyone else here either, because it is against forum rules. And consider this: though I may not have scoured any posts, I did consider it. Instead, I decided to ask nicely that people just dial it back a bit. But instead of doing that, you'd rather defend being a TRIBBLE. It's attitudes like that, that cause me to reconsider asking nicely. Fine. Next time I won't bother asking. I'll just hand out the points since that's what you'd apparently prefer.
I find that you're more then fair on most of this stuff.. but you're over reacting here.
When a player, any player.. plays a queue and then blames the queue for the mistakes they made, that comes across in a way that many will not approve of regardless of who that player is. I don't think calling that player 'lazy' or at least saying it's lazy to not take the time to learn the content is harsh or unfair.
The 'Captain Leaver' thing was just a quote from Kael himself, but ok.. we can avoid that.
We get what you're saying, we should try and keep the criticism constructive and do our best to avoid insulting anyone personally. It is however, fair that the player be criticized for obvious lack of tactics and team work.. especially when they blame the content for these short comings.
The issue here is that some of us believe that while the content in question may not be perfect, we believe the severity of the issue was greatly exaggerated by the style of the player running the content. I have been careful to avoid saying anything directly about the player in question, but I will say that the play style exhibited was indeed lazy. The player in this case opted not to really pay much attention to the structure of the mission, used obviously faulty and flawed tactics and then blamed the content. That is simply what happened.
The player personally, is fine.. they way they approached the problem was flawed and I simply would like to urge that player to try and play the conent again and focus more on what they did wrong the first time as opposed to assuming they did all the right things and the content is simply 'bad.'
It's a fine line.. I get it. Especially because let's be honest.. the player in question is in charge which puts you as a moderator in a tough spot. If we attempt to be sensitive to that balance however and issue our thoughts without directly insulting anyone, I hope you will continue to let us discuss the issue in a constructive fashion.
I also hope that others try to be sensitive to this fine line as well and reign things in so that we can continue to have a dialogue on the issue, as I do believe a lot of what has been said here has been constructive.
Lets remember, our moderator is in a bit of a tight spot here and try and make it easier on all of us by keeping things as civil as possible. It would be optimal for everyone to keep the discussion open, silencing discussion gets all of us exactly nowhere.
Lets remember, our moderator is in a bit of a tight spot here and try and make it easier on all of us by keeping things as civil as possible. It would be optimal for everyone to keep the discussion open, silencing discussion gets all of us exactly nowhere.
You are right Sea, as usual. Thx.
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I would be happy if they do remove the injury system.
I would not be.
I would even like to have it more pronounced instead of removed. This means that player’s deaths leads to more obvious performance setbacks of our characters/ships. Reason is that it would force player to pay attention and that dying/exploding has a meaningful impact. Not having it only engineers a lazy gaming attitude in my opinion as everything you do or not do has fewer consequences. If deaths would have any sort of meaning it would also help a bit at the power creep front. Reason why some players are so powerful is that their builds are 95-100% offensive. They take zero risk for doing so because if they pop, they just pop. Nothing to worry about.
I also think injuries should stay canon wise as both injuries and damaged starships played central roles in various episodes of the shows so they make for a more authentic STO experience.
Both arguments work for the adapt mechanic as well.
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I actually hate the injury system and favor it's removal.
Personally, my incentive not to die is personal pride.. I hate it when I drop in teamed runs and make every effort to see that it's a rare occasion. It does however, happen at times and I take it as a personal failure every time.
I get the idea that removal of the injuries removes one of the few consequences of death and that's a fair point. To me, it's just annoying having to go heal between maps as the price of Critical Regenerators is a bit silly.
I would consider it a fair compromise if the injury system remained and even had the effects increased provided that the injuries healed upon successful completion of the map. If you were successful, then on the next map you have no injury. If you fail the map, you have to go get healed up.
On Advanced, only completion of the map would be required to remove injuries. On Elite, completion of all optionals would also be required to heal the injuries.
I quote you entirely, without quoting you in practice @seaofsorrows to avoid creating a wall text.
I think the main problem here is that we're all been let down by pugs during queues (whether they were random or not is irrelevant, I think).
Just the other day, I run a Brotherhood of the Sword Advanced with a fleet mate. We had people AFK that compromised our run. We couldn't deactivate the second set of devices and the STF failed, which left us with a queue in cooldown, less marks and - most importantly - one less elite mark that we would've liked because we needed them to get some gear from the rep.
This is just one of many examples. I lost count of how many times we failed the objective in ISA because someone had the "good" idea of putting a gravity well on the transformer while the team, as a whole, did not have the DPS needed to take it down or to destroy the spheres before they were pulled towards it.
You can say that that's not really a problem... and I can agree, to a certain point: while you still get the elite mark and the marks reduction is not that bad, it speaks volumes about the willingness of some players to play in a team, whether that team is made of pug or is premade. Putting a gravity well on the transformer means that you either have it in your "rotation" or you simply spammed the ability. Both cases are bad, in their own way.
Getting back to the point I was trying (and probably failing spectacularly!) to make: there are many, many players that don't really know what to do in queues. This is not completely their fault, but it is worrying. As others have said, team chats are pratically dead and, when they are used, very rarely it is to give hints or pointers, with players choosing to use it to berate others instead. This has generated a vicious cicle of people not asking for fear of getting insulted and others simply ignoring altogether.
Now, there are many guides around on how to run this or that queue. There are also preliminary briefings which can be read before the queue start (and sometimes during the queue, too). Not to mention the objective texts themselves. All of this should be more than enough for a new player to learn how to run something. Better perfomance come with time and experience, so that's not in question.
What's in question is: if you don't know how to run something, you don't ask for tips from your teammates/fleetmates/friends/whatever, you aren't willing to listen when someone does give you directions and leave in the middle of a queue or stay AFK for a (good) portion of it... why are you queueing in the first place?
Yes, you need the marks.
Yes, you need the elite marks.
Both these are legitimate things, but you also have to remember that you're not in there alone. There are other 4 people that are counting on you to do the right thing. It doesn't matter if you have enough DPS to keep the probes at bay in Khitomer. It doesn't matter if you can't take down a cube alone in Cure, nor does it matter if you can't really jump in Infected.
If you're willing to listen, to learn and to try... that's good enough for me.
If you don't though, my question remain: why are you queueing in the first place?
Not agreeing with someone doesn't give you the right to be an TRIBBLE.
Ci sono tre tipi di giocatori:
- quelli a cui non va mai bene niente... e vanno sul forum a trollare;
- quelli che sono talmente imbesuiti da credere a qualunque cosa i dev dicano, perfino che la luna è fatta di formaggio... e vanno sul forum a trollare;
- quelli che credono a quello a cui è giusto credere, sono d'accordo con quello con cui è giusto essere d'accordo e sono critici con quello che non va;
Ai giocatori dei primi due tipi, gratis in omaggio un bello specchio lucente su cui arrampicarsi. E una mazzata in testa per la loro poca intelligenza e compassione verso gli altri giocatori che non la pensano come loro.
Agli appartenenti al terzo tipo, invece, dico grazie. Anche se non sempre si riesce a mantenere la calma, siete quelli per cui vale la pena incazzarsi.
I get the idea that removal of the injuries removes one of the few consequences of death and that's a fair point. To me, it's just annoying having to go heal between maps as the price of Critical Regenerators is a bit silly.
You could always try out (more) ground consumables and other buffs that need to be re-applied when killed.
When we play STO Kyle always freaks out at phone when he pops and has to reuse/consume his felt 200 drinks, tribbles and Snickers to get back into the fight.
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I have stacks of Space and Ground Injury Consumables in the Bank and use them immediately if I die in an Advanced TFO if I've been injured. I have never purchased a single one, they've all come from drops. I transfer new ones to the Bank as soon as I get back to a Bank. I have also, of late, started to just get rid of them through the Replicator especially if it will start a new stack.
Within the last month or so I went into an Advanced TFO and one of the Team had like 7 Injuries starting off. It's hard to tell whether it was through lack of knowledge or deliberate.
'But to be logical is not to be right', and 'nothing' on God's earth could ever 'make it' right!'
Judge Dan Haywood
'As l speak now, the words are forming in my head.
l don't know.
l really don't know what l'm about to say, except l have a feeling about it.
That l must repeat the words that come without my knowledge.'
Well, considering that my first reaction was a simple request, I don't believe it was overreacting. My subsequent reactions, though, have been towards what appears to me to be pushback against that request and seeming defense of the behavior, which may have been due to a misunderstanding of what I meant.
To be clear, I was only referencing the name-calling and accusations of laziness. That's on me if that wasn't completely understood. I'll take that hit. All other criticisms and assessments of his comments, reactions, and play style/tactics, I'm completely hands off. In fact, I had previously mentioned that in an attempt to clarify my position. Again, if that wasn't clear, that's on me.
Thanks, @seaofsorrows for your words of understanding. I'm not trying to stifle discussion of this issue. I honestly agree with the opinions here regarding poor playing does not mean content is bad and needs to be changed/removed.
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I am glad you are not my boss. They probably have done a cost-benefit analysis on the pros and cons of such a decision, does not mean it is not on their list though.
These things are planned years in advance and they have a small developer team as it is, though they now have a new character artist iirc.
I like animation updates.
As for the RTFO system, it is random, you never know what you are getting, whether it is space or ground. It is actually good that these bugs are being found by players since it then gets added to their bug list to be fixed whenever those are able to be done in their tough schedule. I sometimes think it would be cool to get a little peek through the Cryptic curtain, to realize what their daily routine is like to understand what they go through
Finally, not all of the company did the hair physics and the warp nacelles animations, just the one who does those animations and the other one that is working on repairing warp nacelles animations.
Also this isn't the first time it's come up in a live stream. When Kael was demonstrating the new TFO UI he did a random and got Cure Ground. Jesse had to tell him how to complete the map because it simply doesn't show you most of the objectives. At one point the mission text basically says "shoot the Borg tech" but you don't really have anything showing what bit of Borg tech. Turrets, especially turrets that don't need line of sight, are good there since adaptation is reset each time you summon a new turret. Part of why I like Crawler mines. Borg have to adapt to each mine individually, but the mines self-destruct.
My character Tsin'xing
1: only one player has to do it
2: there's no timer
3: there's no enemies attacking you
4: it requires 1/4 the jumping(per player, not total, total is around 1/12)
5: it doesn't reset after completion
6: there's no lockout if you mess it up.
My character Tsin'xing
My character Tsin'xing
Why are the TFO's even in question at this point? If all this about jumping and cant learn and cant try again is the issue then there is a normal mode for it to you know learn. With little to no need to do much other than work as a team and if needed take a min to collect.
on other points in thread.
Those stf's for the borg were hard and i do mean in the past here. It has held the record for me as the longest missions i have ever had the displeasure to play ranking at eight hours for the 2nd of the 3 borg stf's.
If you cant learn the missions why playing them. Open that little window and type in "i have no clew what i am doing" and any player worth there salt can help. with at least basic filler directions.
If you run in to a... less than help full player then muddle thru and read the text it covers what you need to do in general. And look and watch what the players do in the mission.
As to injury well i have even carried extra parts and traded to team mates to heal in the mission. so long as you are willing to take a break to trade out of combat problem solved.
As a side note players get Universal Kit Module - Mudd's Time Device Mk XII. run in front of the other players hit it and then jump off in to the acid. and reappear in front of them. tends to make the other players want to know how you did that. And guess what no respawn needed jumping is taken care of miss and o well.
So yes even a drop in the acid leaves you a chance to learn by mistake now.
So for all old players and new. put down the distractions for the run leave chat out side team to it self. Stop watching the 2nd screen or the ever so nice placed tv with a episode reruns of your favorite older scifi show. Forget the streaming and multitasking and your recordings. put the phone away. Be present and learn some in the game is all it takes to do any mission, event, and tfo we have left.
How about the self-respect STO can maintain that pressing the engage button at the start of your gaming session is not the biggest challenge this title provides?
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I have to double check as you quoted two things that I wrote. I don’t understand but would really like to.
Are those examples you bring up from me ok for forums or not?
The reason why I’m confused is because one of the things is a direct 1:1 quote form Keal, from the stream, he said about himself that I put in here. It can’t be a problem or is it?
As for lazy, yea that’s on me. I’m not a native English speaker and tried to find the right word to describe what I saw so I just picked one that was most fitting in my eyes. If somebody plays, well "bad", how am I supposed to describe it around here to be in line?
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You have a point. A wrong point. And here's why.
1. It's not an insult if he refers to himself as that, right as he bails on his team. No communication with his team, just leaves. Same with Terrible Teammate. Titles he christened himself with, and earned fairly. His actions reflect during the TFO. It's not unfair to call out his poor behavior, nor his actions, when there's evidence to back it up, on a livestream. It's perfectly necessary to making my points. Especially if there are people in this thread who missed the details as things were happening during the video.
2. The laziness and/or not taking time to process the information likewise, is backed up by the stream, and I listed each example in a larger paragraph. When he's flailing there, feeding, and complaining about the TFO, blaming the performance on a TFO that didn't glitch, that didn't crash or disconnect him, that ran silky smooth with framerate and responsiveness, rather than owning up, yes. THAT is taking the lazy way out.
3. He's an adult, perfectly capable of explaining himself when he draws heat. Unless you're his mouthpiece now. Or you feel he is a protected class that deserves special treatment or handling, regardless of his actions. Are PWE employees, or Cryptic employees porcelain, above reproach now, regardless of what stunts they pull? Stunts that could very well influence game content in a negative way? And consider this: If it was so blatantly insulting or against the rules, you would have scoured my post, given me demerits, and/or put me in the gulag again for however long.
4. The context of what I state belongs to me, and me alone. If you interpret it wrong, such as here, I am perfectly happy to enlighten.
But lets better not get into that one or we have a discussion on our hands next why still having 3 players of a team pushing buttons at the same time makes that map so "dated" as well.
What I like about the boss room in IGA is that it is a true test of character of a player especialy of a team player. You know, not at all the effort to make a 300k DPS build, just your character.
Will you learn to jump or let the others in your team do it?
Will you let your horizon widen a tiny bit to see that the drones respawn pressuring you later on when you kill them all right at the start?
Will you reanimate others in team that have fallen or just ignore them?
Will you learn to play in sync with others or not?
3 out of 5 need to do it. I could certainly understand a reasonable discussion that it would be better if only 2 (or Jesus!) even 1 in a team out of 5 need to do it. I mean that the skill level of the average player dropped sharply the past decade in STO is obvious when you see 3K ISA logs in spite of all the power creep we got in 9 years. But we are ways beyond that one already aren’t we?
I mean we are at "is it ok that we need to jump"?!?
Good lord.
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No it does not create *any* challenge at all, unless you're a new player who hasn't learned the mechanics yet. For experienced players it is a minor(though annoying) inconvenience since it is practically negated by the items that cure them.
For new players it makes them do worse and worse, and they probably don't even realize just how bad it is getting, since barely anyone speaks in stfs nowadays.
So there really is no point to the system, all it does is actively make the game less enjoyable to differing degrees.
I feel the same way about the adapt mechanic.
Anytime you play a Borg ground stf, many of the other players are going to be using guns as in, actual guns since the Borg can't adapt to them. The adaptation doesn't make things more difficult, only annoying. The best option has become to simply use stuff that ignores it. Plus they adapt to too many damage types.
The adapt mechanic either needs to be reworked, or just removed.
(Besides we're 40 years in the future or so from when the Borg first appeared, I imagine by now Starfleet wouldve just had autoremodulation built into every single phaser or simply made weapons powerful enough to ignore adaptation)
That is one major issue. No one coordinates. In Infected its practically REQUIRED to coordinate. The problem is no one says anything to get people ready to interact with the console. Its just hit it as soon as you can, and pray that you time it right. And if you miss it... odds are the person's gonna hit it again the second they can, so either hope the console is available or wait a cycle and hope you catch it.
While it has been a LOOOONG time since I ran Kitomer ground, people seem to be somewhat more willing to remember the chat box exists so that they can say when they're ready for the shield to drop. Unless you get someone who goes into the room and just randomly mashes buttons causing random shields to drop all over the room.
#LegalizeAwoo
A normie goes "Oh, what's this?"
An otaku goes "UwU, what's this?"
A furry goes "OwO, what's this?"
A werewolf goes "Awoo, what's this?"
"It's nothing personal, I just don't feel like I've gotten to know a person until I've sniffed their crotch."
"We said 'no' to Mr. Curiosity. We're not home. Curiosity is not welcome, it is not to be invited in. Curiosity...is bad. It gets you in trouble, it gets you killed, and more importantly...it makes you poor!"
We had two with us that new what to do perfectly and guided us (or reminded us, in my case) on what to do.
We took our time, saved all 10 crewmen even if we lost the objective for a few seconds. We didn't fail the second optional, though.
And we had four people jumpin for the sake of it. 3 that were pushing buttons, the fourth that was disabling the nodes.
We had exactly one death: mine. I was about to jump, but a teammate bumped into me and slowed me down. Was my fault, though. Instead of stopping I jumped anyway.
We took care of the drones right at the beginning, and then again while destroying the central node (before and little after, too). Manus herself lasted all of 10 seconds, what with pets, pahvo crystals and security escorts... all stuff (except the crystals) that we made sure was off cooldown for the boss fight.
So, yeah. It wasn't perfect, but it was doable and it was not as difficult as many make it sound. Is it annoyin to jump so many times? Yep, it can be.
But you know what our only complaint was? "Why aren't there more respawn points?" That was it.
Again, out of 5 players we had one first-timer, and two so rusty they barely remembered anything.
Difference with Kael's case is: we actually listened to what our more experience teammate was saying, so we could get it right.
Next time we're going in there, we'll get both optionals, no problem.
Agreed. Unfortunately.
Ci sono tre tipi di giocatori:
- quelli a cui non va mai bene niente... e vanno sul forum a trollare;
- quelli che sono talmente imbesuiti da credere a qualunque cosa i dev dicano, perfino che la luna è fatta di formaggio... e vanno sul forum a trollare;
- quelli che credono a quello a cui è giusto credere, sono d'accordo con quello con cui è giusto essere d'accordo e sono critici con quello che non va;
Ai giocatori dei primi due tipi, gratis in omaggio un bello specchio lucente su cui arrampicarsi. E una mazzata in testa per la loro poca intelligenza e compassione verso gli altri giocatori che non la pensano come loro.
Agli appartenenti al terzo tipo, invece, dico grazie. Anche se non sempre si riesce a mantenere la calma, siete quelli per cui vale la pena incazzarsi.
Thank you for sharing this moment. You and your friends tried, worked together and made it because of it. It’s the best reward a game can grant.
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If I would take my top 10 DPS league build, queue up Infected Space Normal, stream it and see how many AFK penalties I can dish out for the unlucky random team-mates, what would you think of me and how would you describe my behavior in forums if the discussion rises?
If I happen to throw in a nickname at the end, something like “captain DPS to the rescue”, would it relativize or underline my attitude towards other players in your eyes?
Thank you for looking the other way with your point- or penalizing-system and handing out an additional warning instead. There seem to be things/topcis/happenings I better ignore altogether because I have such trouble to find the right words. Thing is just that this feels wrong as well.
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As for when? I think it was the first livestream either before or after the RTFO system went live. Whenever that was. Not sure if he was playing on Tribble or live.
My character Tsin'xing
Oh thanks for elaborating. It is indeed something I would like to watch.
All common and natural mistakes in that PvE that happen one time if you are a fast and two times if you are a slow learner.
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I find that you're more then fair on most of this stuff.. but you're over reacting here.
When a player, any player.. plays a queue and then blames the queue for the mistakes they made, that comes across in a way that many will not approve of regardless of who that player is. I don't think calling that player 'lazy' or at least saying it's lazy to not take the time to learn the content is harsh or unfair.
The 'Captain Leaver' thing was just a quote from Kael himself, but ok.. we can avoid that.
We get what you're saying, we should try and keep the criticism constructive and do our best to avoid insulting anyone personally. It is however, fair that the player be criticized for obvious lack of tactics and team work.. especially when they blame the content for these short comings.
The issue here is that some of us believe that while the content in question may not be perfect, we believe the severity of the issue was greatly exaggerated by the style of the player running the content. I have been careful to avoid saying anything directly about the player in question, but I will say that the play style exhibited was indeed lazy. The player in this case opted not to really pay much attention to the structure of the mission, used obviously faulty and flawed tactics and then blamed the content. That is simply what happened.
The player personally, is fine.. they way they approached the problem was flawed and I simply would like to urge that player to try and play the conent again and focus more on what they did wrong the first time as opposed to assuming they did all the right things and the content is simply 'bad.'
It's a fine line.. I get it. Especially because let's be honest.. the player in question is in charge which puts you as a moderator in a tough spot. If we attempt to be sensitive to that balance however and issue our thoughts without directly insulting anyone, I hope you will continue to let us discuss the issue in a constructive fashion.
I also hope that others try to be sensitive to this fine line as well and reign things in so that we can continue to have a dialogue on the issue, as I do believe a lot of what has been said here has been constructive.
Lets remember, our moderator is in a bit of a tight spot here and try and make it easier on all of us by keeping things as civil as possible. It would be optimal for everyone to keep the discussion open, silencing discussion gets all of us exactly nowhere.
You are right Sea, as usual. Thx.
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I would not be.
I would even like to have it more pronounced instead of removed. This means that player’s deaths leads to more obvious performance setbacks of our characters/ships. Reason is that it would force player to pay attention and that dying/exploding has a meaningful impact. Not having it only engineers a lazy gaming attitude in my opinion as everything you do or not do has fewer consequences. If deaths would have any sort of meaning it would also help a bit at the power creep front. Reason why some players are so powerful is that their builds are 95-100% offensive. They take zero risk for doing so because if they pop, they just pop. Nothing to worry about.
I also think injuries should stay canon wise as both injuries and damaged starships played central roles in various episodes of the shows so they make for a more authentic STO experience.
Both arguments work for the adapt mechanic as well.
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Personally, my incentive not to die is personal pride.. I hate it when I drop in teamed runs and make every effort to see that it's a rare occasion. It does however, happen at times and I take it as a personal failure every time.
I get the idea that removal of the injuries removes one of the few consequences of death and that's a fair point. To me, it's just annoying having to go heal between maps as the price of Critical Regenerators is a bit silly.
I would consider it a fair compromise if the injury system remained and even had the effects increased provided that the injuries healed upon successful completion of the map. If you were successful, then on the next map you have no injury. If you fail the map, you have to go get healed up.
On Advanced, only completion of the map would be required to remove injuries. On Elite, completion of all optionals would also be required to heal the injuries.
I quote you entirely, without quoting you in practice @seaofsorrows to avoid creating a wall text.
I think the main problem here is that we're all been let down by pugs during queues (whether they were random or not is irrelevant, I think).
Just the other day, I run a Brotherhood of the Sword Advanced with a fleet mate. We had people AFK that compromised our run. We couldn't deactivate the second set of devices and the STF failed, which left us with a queue in cooldown, less marks and - most importantly - one less elite mark that we would've liked because we needed them to get some gear from the rep.
This is just one of many examples. I lost count of how many times we failed the objective in ISA because someone had the "good" idea of putting a gravity well on the transformer while the team, as a whole, did not have the DPS needed to take it down or to destroy the spheres before they were pulled towards it.
You can say that that's not really a problem... and I can agree, to a certain point: while you still get the elite mark and the marks reduction is not that bad, it speaks volumes about the willingness of some players to play in a team, whether that team is made of pug or is premade. Putting a gravity well on the transformer means that you either have it in your "rotation" or you simply spammed the ability. Both cases are bad, in their own way.
Getting back to the point I was trying (and probably failing spectacularly!) to make: there are many, many players that don't really know what to do in queues. This is not completely their fault, but it is worrying. As others have said, team chats are pratically dead and, when they are used, very rarely it is to give hints or pointers, with players choosing to use it to berate others instead. This has generated a vicious cicle of people not asking for fear of getting insulted and others simply ignoring altogether.
Now, there are many guides around on how to run this or that queue. There are also preliminary briefings which can be read before the queue start (and sometimes during the queue, too). Not to mention the objective texts themselves. All of this should be more than enough for a new player to learn how to run something. Better perfomance come with time and experience, so that's not in question.
What's in question is: if you don't know how to run something, you don't ask for tips from your teammates/fleetmates/friends/whatever, you aren't willing to listen when someone does give you directions and leave in the middle of a queue or stay AFK for a (good) portion of it... why are you queueing in the first place?
Yes, you need the marks.
Yes, you need the elite marks.
Both these are legitimate things, but you also have to remember that you're not in there alone. There are other 4 people that are counting on you to do the right thing. It doesn't matter if you have enough DPS to keep the probes at bay in Khitomer. It doesn't matter if you can't take down a cube alone in Cure, nor does it matter if you can't really jump in Infected.
If you're willing to listen, to learn and to try... that's good enough for me.
If you don't though, my question remain: why are you queueing in the first place?
Ci sono tre tipi di giocatori:
- quelli a cui non va mai bene niente... e vanno sul forum a trollare;
- quelli che sono talmente imbesuiti da credere a qualunque cosa i dev dicano, perfino che la luna è fatta di formaggio... e vanno sul forum a trollare;
- quelli che credono a quello a cui è giusto credere, sono d'accordo con quello con cui è giusto essere d'accordo e sono critici con quello che non va;
Ai giocatori dei primi due tipi, gratis in omaggio un bello specchio lucente su cui arrampicarsi. E una mazzata in testa per la loro poca intelligenza e compassione verso gli altri giocatori che non la pensano come loro.
Agli appartenenti al terzo tipo, invece, dico grazie. Anche se non sempre si riesce a mantenere la calma, siete quelli per cui vale la pena incazzarsi.
You could always try out (more) ground consumables and other buffs that need to be re-applied when killed.
When we play STO Kyle always freaks out at phone when he pops and has to reuse/consume his felt 200 drinks, tribbles and Snickers to get back into the fight.
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Within the last month or so I went into an Advanced TFO and one of the Team had like 7 Injuries starting off. It's hard to tell whether it was through lack of knowledge or deliberate.
l don't know.
l really don't know what l'm about to say, except l have a feeling about it.
That l must repeat the words that come without my knowledge.'
To be clear, I was only referencing the name-calling and accusations of laziness. That's on me if that wasn't completely understood. I'll take that hit. All other criticisms and assessments of his comments, reactions, and play style/tactics, I'm completely hands off. In fact, I had previously mentioned that in an attempt to clarify my position. Again, if that wasn't clear, that's on me.
Thanks, @seaofsorrows for your words of understanding. I'm not trying to stifle discussion of this issue. I honestly agree with the opinions here regarding poor playing does not mean content is bad and needs to be changed/removed.
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