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Discovery 2x14: Such Sweet Sorrow p2 (spoilers)

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  • redvengeredvenge Member Posts: 1,425 Arc User
    sci-fi, DC comics, videogames, whatever...can say whatever the hell it wants about it, and each instance of it ever used has as equal a chance of being correct as it does of being incorrect​​
    Exactly. Which is why they need to tell us how their version works. It is a "fantastic material". How much power does Tilly's doohickey need to break it apart?
  • valoreahvaloreah Member Posts: 10,691 Arc User
    redvenge wrote: »
    Probably made from "dark matter". Perhaps "unobtainium". "Neverexistedite"? Best not to think about it. The writers sure didn't.

    I'd call it crapwritingite
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  • mustrumridcully0mustrumridcully0 Member Posts: 12,894 Arc User
    About Cornwell, the torpedo, and the blast door: I thought it was really...strange...that Pike was absolutely 100% safe just because that door was there. I mean, I know it's called a "blast door", but it's one thing to say it could stop an explosive cloud that is rushing down a hallway and another thing completely to say it is 100% impervious to a torpedo exploding a couple of feet away. If it were really that impervious to damage why isn't the hull made out of that same material? I know, I know; it's not real. It just seemed strange watching it.
    These torpedoes were special in some way, and we regularly see ships being hit with torpedoes and "tanking" those shots, even though the energy would be extremely destructive.

    So, an interesting suggestion I read is that the torpedo was designed to be armor penetrating.
    There are a variety of anti-armor weaponry today, using different concepts.

    But the basic idea is that you have something that allows your warhead to penetrate armor. Something very hard and thin usually does the trick, sometimes this is created with a shaped charge. The "thin and hard" part is often ineffective in actually dealing damage, since the cross-section if affects is small - if there isn't anything vital in there, the damage is minimal. So a second component of the warhead contains something that can wreak havoc in the "soft" interior, for example an explosive charge.

    The special torpedo design used by Control here was designed to penetrate the hull's armour, allowing it to deliver an antimatter warhead that would devestate the unarmored interior. But the second warhead trigger failed, possibly because the penetration was not deep enough according to the specifications for the trigger, or it was simply a malfunction.
    Anyway, the Bulkhead is basically the same material as the hull armor, and thus it can withstand the explosion. It still blows a huge hole into the saucer section, however, since the rest isn't made from bulkhead/armor material. (And the explosion is probably basically reflected from the bulkhead back into the unprotected area, making the destruction even worse)

    So why don't they build the outer hull from it? They do. B
    Why don't they build the entire ship from it? Because than the ship would be too massive.
    redvenge wrote: »
    I find it quite poetic how a Cleave ship was used by the House of T'Kuvma to further crush the Federation and ensure Klingon-only supremacy at the Battle of the Binary Stars, while in the Battle near Xahea, another led by one of the last members of the House of T'Kuvma arrives to rescue Federation ships as part of a multi-species alliance to stop Control's genocidal supremacy.
    Eh... didn't the Discovery figure out how to render the cloaking device "obsolete"? Didn't they give that information to Starfleet? Wouldn't Control have that information? I thought that scene was even dumber than the scene at the Battle of the Binary Stars.

    However, Control just seems to suffer "terminal stupidity" throughout this episode, so, meh. Crazy, stupid AI is gonna be a crazy, stupid AI.

    They can detect cloaked Klingon ships - but they might need to be actively looking for it. No one was expecting Klingons at the party. Though technically we don't know that Control did not detect them - it might just have deemed counter-measures counterproductive. To evade the Cleave ships, the Section 31 ship would need to warp out of the way and stop firing on its primary target. Maybe it was deemed a lost cause. If a Cleave ship warps into the battlefield, it is going to ram something.
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  • shadowfang240shadowfang240 Member Posts: 35,845 Arc User
    and it did - like 3 or 4 somethings​​
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  • somtaawkharsomtaawkhar Member Posts: 9,019 Arc User
    They can detect cloaked Klingon ships - but they might need to be actively looking for it. No one was expecting Klingons at the party. Though technically we don't know that Control did not detect them - it might just have deemed counter-measures counterproductive. To evade the Cleave ships, the Section 31 ship would need to warp out of the way and stop firing on its primary target. Maybe it was deemed a lost cause. If a Cleave ship warps into the battlefield, it is going to ram something.
    They mention this back in like S1. The Klingon cloak can't entirely hide a ship's power signature, but the reading isn't accurate enough to get a lock on where they are.
  • smokebaileysmokebailey Member Posts: 4,130 Arc User
    From what I see, a *cheap 60's ship* CAN look good. :p -> to the naysayers.
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  • mustrumridcully0mustrumridcully0 Member Posts: 12,894 Arc User
    edited April 2019
    From what I see, a *cheap 60's ship* CAN look good. :p -> to the naysayers.
    That's not the cheap 60's ship, obviously. It seems to mimic the TMP/Undiscovered K'tinga pretty well, though, which was always an expensive 70s movie ship.
    In that regard it's similar to the TMP Constitution, which looks awesome, too.

    Not surprisingly, the DSC Connie revamp is also pretty.
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  • angrytargangrytarg Member Posts: 10,415 Arc User
    I haven'T seen the last two episodes yet, just a quick question: Why is Discovery firing twin-beams all of a sudden, was this addressed? pig-1.gif​​
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  • valoreahvaloreah Member Posts: 10,691 Arc User
    That was the Enterprise
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  • reyan01reyan01 Member Posts: 14,377 Arc User
    edited April 2019
    > @valoreah said:
    > That was the Enterprise

    Discovery used them too


  • valoreahvaloreah Member Posts: 10,691 Arc User
    I don't think that video shows what you think it does. Do you not notice the explosions and shield impacts coming from the supposed origin points of the phasers on the ship? Discovery is getting shot by beams, not firing them. That is the Section 31 ships firing on Discovery.
    Dear Devs: I enjoyed the Legacy of Romulus expansion much more than the Delta Rising expansion. .
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  • evilmark444evilmark444 Member Posts: 5,836 Arc User
    redvenge wrote: »
    I find it quite poetic how a Cleave ship was used by the House of T'Kuvma to further crush the Federation and ensure Klingon-only supremacy at the Battle of the Binary Stars, while in the Battle near Xahea, another led by one of the last members of the House of T'Kuvma arrives to rescue Federation ships as part of a multi-species alliance to stop Control's genocidal supremacy.
    Eh... didn't the Discovery figure out how to render the cloaking device "obsolete"? Didn't they give that information to Starfleet? Wouldn't Control have that information? I thought that scene was even dumber than the scene at the Battle of the Binary Stars.

    However, Control just seems to suffer "terminal stupidity" throughout this episode, so, meh. Crazy, stupid AI is gonna be a crazy, stupid AI.

    Control had no reason to suspect klingons would be joining the battle, so they probably weren't scanning for them.
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  • shadowfang240shadowfang240 Member Posts: 35,845 Arc User
    except control was originally designed as a threat assessment tool...you'd think something like that would plan for ANY eventuality - even one as remote as klingons coming to starfleet's aid​​
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    A normie goes "Oh, what's this?"
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    A furry goes "OwO, what's this?"
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    "It's nothing personal, I just don't feel like I've gotten to know a person until I've sniffed their crotch."

    "Curiosity is bad! It gets you in trouble, it gets you killed...and more importantly, it makes you poor!"
    Passion and Serenity are one.
    I gain power by understanding both.
    In the chaos of their battle, I bring order.
    I am a shadow, darkness born from light.
    The Force is united within me.
  • theraven2378theraven2378 Member Posts: 5,808 Arc User
    I'm astonished at the pounding Discovery and Enterprise took
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    • thegrandnagus1thegrandnagus1 Member Posts: 4,529 Arc User
      You know, it seems like Control didn't really need the sphere data. It was already sentient and could easily take over other ships. All it had to do was infect enough ships (just "hide" in the computer but not actually do anything until it was in the majority of ships, then strike simultaneously) and it would have been unstoppable. I guess it was dumb.

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    • rattler2rattler2 Member Posts: 53,032 Community Moderator
      I'm astonished at the pounding Discovery and Enterprise took

      Well the Constitution Class has always been resiliant, and the Crossfield is at that point a new design with the most advanced tech available to Starfleet.
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      I can't take it anymore! Could everyone just chill out for two seconds before something CRAZY happens again?!
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    • starkaosstarkaos Member Posts: 11,473 Arc User
      You know, it seems like Control didn't really need the sphere data. It was already sentient and could easily take over other ships. All it had to do was infect enough ships (just "hide" in the computer but not actually do anything until it was in the majority of ships, then strike simultaneously) and it would have been unstoppable. I guess it was dumb.

      Which is why it needed the sphere data. To escape from the control of bad writers.

      Personally, I never understood why every AI character has to be a villain or hero. Where is the average AI that gets drunk after working for 23 hours per day? The same applies with super powered individuals. Everyone has to be a superhero or a supervillain instead of people with interesting jobs.
    • saurializardsaurializard Member Posts: 3,632 Arc User
      valoreah wrote: »
      I don't think that video shows what you think it does. Do you not notice the explosions and shield impacts coming from the supposed origin points of the phasers on the ship? Discovery is getting shot by beams, not firing them. That is the Section 31 ships firing on Discovery.
      Look more closely. For example at 0:09, notice how the beams at the upper-top S31 ships move on it and are not fired by the Enterprise with the angle.

      The explosions are more likely the unmanned drones slamming against the shields trying to take out the beam emitters, especially since there are explosions elsewhere on the shields that aren't results of beam shots.
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    • shadowfang240shadowfang240 Member Posts: 35,845 Arc User
      yeah...i watched again at 0.25x normal speed, and there was one beam that certainly looked like it was firing FROM discovery, not at it​​
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      RIP Breonna Taylor, George Floyd, Rayshard Brooks & Calvin Munerlyn

      blacklivesmatter.png

      #LegalizeAwoo

      A normie goes "Oh, what's this?"
      An otaku goes "UwU, what's this?"
      A furry goes "OwO, what's this?"
      A werewolf goes "Awoo, what's this?"


      "It's nothing personal, I just don't feel like I've gotten to know a person until I've sniffed their crotch."

      "Curiosity is bad! It gets you in trouble, it gets you killed...and more importantly, it makes you poor!"
      Passion and Serenity are one.
      I gain power by understanding both.
      In the chaos of their battle, I bring order.
      I am a shadow, darkness born from light.
      The Force is united within me.
    • rattler2rattler2 Member Posts: 53,032 Community Moderator
      Pretty chaotic to tell for sure honestly. And unless Discovery got a minor weapons refit after the Klingon War... shouldn't she still be equipped with the season 1 pulse phasers?
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      I can't take it anymore! Could everyone just chill out for two seconds before something CRAZY happens again?!
      The nut who actually ground out a Delta Pack, Temporal Pack, and Gamma Pack
      The resident forum voice of reason (I HAZ FORUM REP! YAY!)
    • valoreahvaloreah Member Posts: 10,691 Arc User
      Look more closely. For example at 0:09, notice how the beams at the upper-top S31 ships move on it and are not fired by the Enterprise with the angle.

      The explosions are more likely the unmanned drones slamming against the shields trying to take out the beam emitters, especially since there are explosions elsewhere on the shields that aren't results of beam shots.

      It's the section 31 ships firing on the Discovery.
      Dear Devs: I enjoyed the Legacy of Romulus expansion much more than the Delta Rising expansion. .
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    • smokebaileysmokebailey Member Posts: 4,130 Arc User
      The opportunity to give Enterprise a bit of a makeover, making it more TOS (Darn it, at least put the straight struts on it, like the concept art had.....oy) could have been used here.

      Yet the Klingon ship looked about right.
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    • saurializardsaurializard Member Posts: 3,632 Arc User
      edited April 2019
      valoreah wrote: »
      Look more closely. For example at 0:09, notice how the beams at the upper-top S31 ships move on it and are not fired by the Enterprise with the angle.

      The explosions are more likely the unmanned drones slamming against the shields trying to take out the beam emitters, especially since there are explosions elsewhere on the shields that aren't results of beam shots.

      It's the section 31 ships firing on the Discovery.
      So, its beam emitters can move along its hull from 2 different points? Yeah, nope. Also, when they're not completely relying on their drones to do damage, the S31 ships fire red beams:

      #TASforSTO
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    • smokebaileysmokebailey Member Posts: 4,130 Arc User
      I'm astonished at the pounding Discovery and Enterprise took

      Enterprise took a lot of beatings in TOS.
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    • saurializardsaurializard Member Posts: 3,632 Arc User
      Looking closer to the various situations Discovery introduced, I can't help but notice the show keeps TRIBBLE itself up and delivering cop-outs.
      -Through the Valley of Shadows says the time crystals seal your fate like what Pike experiences and leads to one of the best moments of the series. Cue this finale and it turns out it can be altered enough thanks to... reasons even if 2 people (Burnham and Reno) see the same thing?
      -Part 1 says charging the time crystal is dangerous so Reno kicks everyone out because she kinda have nothing to lose after the loss of her wife. Cue part 2 and nothing wrong happens.
      -Ash's presence on the Chancellor's ship brings a lot of continuity issues, as it was a major point in a previous episode that he joined S31 because officially, he betrayed L'Rell and Kol-Sha heroically sacrificed him to save her. Then, Ash was beheaded, his (fake) head as a proof. Here, he's participating in the battle, on the bridge, shouting orders and L'Rell turns to him while laughing when she gets bloodied in the battle.
      -Leland is portrayed as an unstoppable killing machine and the time vision shows that, with him effortlessly slaughtering the crew with deadly accuracy. Cue part 2 and he misses most of his shots and runs away after a couple of shots from Nhan and Georgiou. While you could argue he was after the data and thus didn't want to waste time, it's still stupid for him to take a trip to the bridge, wasting time in the process.
      -Cornwell's sacrifice. Dear god, that was stupidly displayed. A small, windowed door shields everyone from a detonation, mere feet away, that still takes out the whole front of the ship? Get out.
      -Control is killed, the ships go dormant to show that, crisis solved but let's still go to the future where the crisis started in the first place! Surely nothing wrong can happen in Season 3!
      #TASforSTO
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    • reyan01reyan01 Member Posts: 14,377 Arc User
      Looking closer to the various situations Discovery introduced, I can't help but notice the show keeps TRIBBLE itself up and delivering cop-outs.
      -Through the Valley of Shadows says the time crystals seal your fate like what Pike experiences and leads to one of the best moments of the series. Cue this finale and it turns out it can be altered enough thanks to... reasons even if 2 people (Burnham and Reno) see the same thing?
      -Part 1 says charging the time crystal is dangerous so Reno kicks everyone out because she kinda have nothing to lose after the loss of her wife. Cue part 2 and nothing wrong happens.
      -Ash's presence on the Chancellor's ship brings a lot of continuity issues, as it was a major point in a previous episode that he joined S31 because officially, he betrayed L'Rell and Kol-Sha heroically sacrificed him to save her. Then, Ash was beheaded, his (fake) head as a proof. Here, he's participating in the battle, on the bridge, shouting orders and L'Rell turns to him while laughing when she gets bloodied in the battle.
      -Leland is portrayed as an unstoppable killing machine and the time vision shows that, with him effortlessly slaughtering the crew with deadly accuracy. Cue part 2 and he misses most of his shots and runs away after a couple of shots from Nhan and Georgiou. While you could argue he was after the data and thus didn't want to waste time, it's still stupid for him to take a trip to the bridge, wasting time in the process.
      -Cornwell's sacrifice. Dear god, that was stupidly displayed. A small, windowed door shields everyone from a detonation, mere feet away, that still takes out the whole front of the ship? Get out.
      -Control is killed, the ships go dormant to show that, crisis solved but let's still go to the future where the crisis started in the first place! Surely nothing wrong can happen in Season 3!

      Yeah - not going to counter these points; I loved the episode but as have said before, that doesn't mean I don't see it's flaws.

      My headcanon regarding the Crystal is that it was still embedded in rock/crystal when Pike touched it, and it was likely more 'powerful' in that state.

      Reno - they missed a trick here. I suspect that, since she felt that she had nothing to lose there was nothing to be shown 'worse' than what she'd already lived through. Though they could've possibly shown us something of her past.....

      I overlooked Ash's presence on L'rell's ship; easy to assume the only ones who knew he was there were the bridge crew, and they'd have to be officers L'rell could trust.

      With regard to Cornwell's sacrifice - whilst you are correct, what bothered me more was the fact that the only emergency door release was inside the room - it made no sense, to me, that there wasn't one the other side of the door.


    • valoreahvaloreah Member Posts: 10,691 Arc User
      So, its beam emitters can move along its hull from 2 different points? Yeah, nope. Also, when they're not completely relying on their drones to do damage, the S31 ships fire red beams

      26 seconds into your video you can clearly see Disco firing their usual pulsed phasers.

      Dear Devs: I enjoyed the Legacy of Romulus expansion much more than the Delta Rising expansion. .
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    • saurializardsaurializard Member Posts: 3,632 Arc User
      edited April 2019
      valoreah wrote: »
      So, its beam emitters can move along its hull from 2 different points? Yeah, nope. Also, when they're not completely relying on their drones to do damage, the S31 ships fire red beams

      26 seconds into your video you can clearly see Disco firing their usual pulsed phasers.
      Because Saru explicitly orders Rhys to boost their power to maximum just after the video to follow Enterprise's idea, which seems to be the (rapidly made-up) DSC explanation for why the phasers are usually shown as rapid fire shots instead of the usual continuous beams you'll see, starting with TOS.

      My guess is that prior to this battle, ships didn't have enough or didn't want to use too much power to maintain continuous phaser beams. Then, it changed before TOS when they managed to solve the power issues.
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    • neoakiraiineoakiraii Member Posts: 7,462 Arc User
      Is it me or when the Enterprise takes a hit they rock the bridge like they use to in TOS and when discovery takes a hit they don't rock around as hard
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    • rattler2rattler2 Member Posts: 53,032 Community Moderator
      Well... Enterprise is an older ship compared to Discovery...
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      I can't take it anymore! Could everyone just chill out for two seconds before something CRAZY happens again?!
      The nut who actually ground out a Delta Pack, Temporal Pack, and Gamma Pack
      The resident forum voice of reason (I HAZ FORUM REP! YAY!)
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