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Discovery 2x14: Such Sweet Sorrow p2 (spoilers)

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  • starkaosstarkaos Member Posts: 11,473 Arc User
    starkaos wrote: »
    Actually, that is really easy to explain. The original Philip J. Fry had Enos and Mildred Fry as his biological grandparents, then he accidentally killed his grandfather and slept with his grandmother resulting in original Philip J. Fry being the next Philip J. Fry's grandfather. With each iteration of the temporal loop, Philip J. Fry has less and less of Enos Fry's DNA until there is no real difference between each iteration of Fry's DNA since 99.9999999999999% of Fry's paternal DNA comes from Mildred's DNA.
    This is neither what happened on the show, or is what was stated to have happened on the show, and thus, wrong.

    By that logic, nothing happens in the universe in a particular story unless it is on the show. Stories almost never show the man behind the curtain since it would lose the magic of the trick. The Bootstrap paradox only exists because we are only shown what the writer wants to show and not how the trick works. Fry needs to have originally existed with Enos and Mildred as his biological grandparents in order to be able to go back in time to kill and replace his grandfather. Otherwise, he would not have been able to go back in time and replace his grandfather since the virgin birth is more credible than Fry always being his grandfather.

  • somtaawkharsomtaawkhar Member Posts: 9,019 Arc User
    edited April 2019
    starkaos wrote: »
    Fry needs to have originally existed with Enos and Mildred as his biological grandparents in order to be able to go back in time to kill and replace his grandfather.
    Nope, the whole point of it being a PARADOX is that it has no logical beginning or end, its just an endless circle.

    Enos was never Fry's grandfather, and Fry was always his own grandfather, period. Same is true with Sela and the Iconians in STO, and Burnham's time loop in Discovery.
  • starkaosstarkaos Member Posts: 11,473 Arc User
    starkaos wrote: »
    starkaos wrote: »
    And this is the worst part of Season 2. There is absolutely no explanation how Burnham would know about the location of the USS Hiawatha or Terralysium or figure out the secret behind the Kelpiens, time crystals, and the power of Po without the Red Bursts. Burnham's mother as the cause of the Red Bursts would make more sense since she spent years in the future. Knowledge has to be learnt from somewhere and can't be created out of nothing
    This is incorrect, and the whole reason why bootstrap paradox exists.

    Its exactly the same as the TOS era movie "glasses paradox" where Bones gives Kirk a pair of glasses that Kirk takes back to the past and sells off, ultimately ensuring they are obtained by Bone in the future so he can give them to Kirk, so Kirk can take them back into the past and sell them. The glasses have no origin, they just exist in an endless paradox.

    Doesn't change the fact that it is an extremely idiotic paradox. Everything must have an origin even if it is beyond our limited understanding.
    The origin was probably information from the sphere data.

    Due to the massive amount of information within the sphere data, Discovery's crew would have to know where to look. No matter what, the Red Bursts have to be from a Burnham from a previous timeline in order for Burnham to acquire the appropriate information to create the Red Bursts in the right locations and the right time. The USS Hiawatha, Kaminar, and Boreth could have been figured out by researching the sphere data in a previous timeline while Xahea could have been figured out by talking with Tilly in a previous timeline. Terralysium would have required Burnham's mother due to Terralysium being destroyed in a previous timeline. However, there is no reason why the USS Discovery would realize that Jett Reno was important and necessary to the mission so it would require more than just needing look for the USS Hiawatha in a previous timeline.
  • valoreahvaloreah Member Posts: 10,691 Arc User
    neoakiraii wrote: »
    Torpedo was blocking transport hence why they couldn't just beam it out into space...Trek trope number 189

    Which Trek trope prevented them from sending in those R2D2 units to pull the manual release? Or tie a rope to it and pull it from the other side?
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  • valoreahvaloreah Member Posts: 10,691 Arc User
    The magnet gun Tilly used to grab onto the dark matter was of limited power. To destroy the nanites you need a significantly more high powered magnet that can pull hard enough to undo their cohesion, and presumably crush the nanties entirely.

    It could handle a dark matter asteroid but not some tiny nanites?
    Dear Devs: I enjoyed the Legacy of Romulus expansion much more than the Delta Rising expansion. .
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  • starkaosstarkaos Member Posts: 11,473 Arc User
    starkaos wrote: »
    Fry needs to have originally existed with Enos and Mildred as his biological grandparents in order to be able to go back in time to kill and replace his grandfather.
    Nope, the whole point of it being a PARADOX is that it has no logical beginning or end, its just an endless circle.

    Enos was never Fry's grandfather, and Fry was always his own grandfather, period. Same is true with Sela and the Iconians in STO, and Burnham's time loop in Discovery.

    Paradoxes are just phenomenon that we can't understand with our limited understanding.

    As far as Burnham's time loop goes, there was numerous timelines that Burnham's mother went through before there was a timeline that finally succeeded. The only way that Burnham would know where to go for her Red Bursts is if a Burnham from a previous timeline did the hard work of figuring out what was needed to stop Control and created the initial Red Bursts. Burnham did not create the Red Bursts, a Burnham from a previous timeline or Burnhams from previous timelines did. So one of them could have figured out where to get Time Crystals, while another one figured out the needed the evolved Kelpiens, while another one figured out they needed Jett Reno, while another one figured out they needed Po until there was enough Red Bursts to defeat Control.

    It is the same plan that Noye used in Agents of Yesterday to try to win the Battle of Procyon V except that he was able to remember previous timelines while the Discovery had to rely on Red Bursts to figure it out. Bring in more and more allies and technology until you finally win.
  • somtaawkharsomtaawkhar Member Posts: 9,019 Arc User
    edited April 2019
    valoreah wrote: »
    It could handle a dark matter asteroid but not some tiny nanites?
    Did you see it crushing the asteroid into nothingness? Nope, it just held onto a piece of it.
    valoreah wrote: »
    Which Trek trope prevented them from sending in those R2D2 units to pull the manual release? Or tie a rope to it and pull it from the other side?
    They are too big to fit through the door, much less fit through the tiny opening of the half open door that was jammed.
  • jiralinriajiralinria Member Posts: 108 Arc User
    So watched the episode, and all I can say is: Moving Discovery to a very distant future for the next season is the best thing they could've done! Then they can continue making a Star Trek I think is not super bad, but compared to all the other shows completely un-Trek like and boring. I think this is a total win/win situation for all. (keep in mind, this is MY personal opinion, not trying to make it yours as well!)
  • rattler2rattler2 Member Posts: 53,032 Community Moderator
    The question now is... what kind of Galaxy is Discovery in now? What is the state of the Federation? And what powers have come up as well?

    The arrival of a 23rd Century starship is going to be interesting.
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  • somtaawkharsomtaawkhar Member Posts: 9,019 Arc User
    rattler2 wrote: »
    The question now is... what kind of Galaxy is Discovery in now? What is the state of the Federation? And what powers have come up as well?

    The arrival of a 23rd Century starship is going to be interesting.
    Given that Control was stopped, there should be life in the galaxy.

    I know many are suspecting, based on the Calypso short, that S3 may be "Star Trek: Andromeda" so to speak.
  • rattler2rattler2 Member Posts: 53,032 Community Moderator
    Guess Saru's getting the Captain's Chair after all as the highest ranking officer. Unless they somehow come into contact with the 33rd Century Starfleet. Although why they'd keep a relic like a Crossfield in service when a shuttle might be able to overpower her...

    Unless something happened which forces Discovery to go somewhere else.
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    I can't take it anymore! Could everyone just chill out for two seconds before something CRAZY happens again?!
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  • somtaawkharsomtaawkhar Member Posts: 9,019 Arc User
    rattler2 wrote: »
    Guess Saru's getting the Captain's Chair after all as the highest ranking officer. Unless they somehow come into contact with the 33rd Century Starfleet. Although why they'd keep a relic like a Crossfield in service when a shuttle might be able to overpower her...

    Unless something happened which forces Discovery to go somewhere else.
    Technically, Georgiou is the highest ranking officer, as she is officially a captain.
  • starkaosstarkaos Member Posts: 11,473 Arc User
    valoreah wrote: »
    neoakiraii wrote: »
    Torpedo was blocking transport hence why they couldn't just beam it out into space...Trek trope number 189

    Which Trek trope prevented them from sending in those R2D2 units to pull the manual release? Or tie a rope to it and pull it from the other side?

    Or using those shuttles and landing pods as hangar pets in any other series besides Enterprise. Using those attack craft is something I expect from Star Wars not Star Trek.
    rattler2 wrote: »
    The question now is... what kind of Galaxy is Discovery in now? What is the state of the Federation? And what powers have come up as well?

    The arrival of a 23rd Century starship is going to be interesting.

    If they end up in a future version of the Federation, then it is a ton of interviews by the Department of Temporal Investigations followed by years of training in Starfleet Academy to familiarize them with future technology and procedures if they want to be part of Starfleet instead of just as a historical repository of 23rd Century life. So the most exciting thing for Season 3 of Discovery if Season 3 is still about the USS Discovery is for it to end up as Voyager in the 28th Century or whenever they end up.
  • ryan218ryan218 Member Posts: 35,804 Arc User
    starkaos wrote: »
    valoreah wrote: »
    neoakiraii wrote: »
    Torpedo was blocking transport hence why they couldn't just beam it out into space...Trek trope number 189

    Which Trek trope prevented them from sending in those R2D2 units to pull the manual release? Or tie a rope to it and pull it from the other side?

    Or using those shuttles and landing pods as hangar pets in any other series besides Enterprise. Using those attack craft is something I expect from Star Wars not Star Trek.
    rattler2 wrote: »
    The question now is... what kind of Galaxy is Discovery in now? What is the state of the Federation? And what powers have come up as well?

    The arrival of a 23rd Century starship is going to be interesting.

    If they end up in a future version of the Federation, then it is a ton of interviews by the Department of Temporal Investigations followed by years of training in Starfleet Academy to familiarize them with future technology and procedures if they want to be part of Starfleet instead of just as a historical repository of 23rd Century life. So the most exciting thing for Season 3 of Discovery if Season 3 is still about the USS Discovery is for it to end up as Voyager in the 28th Century or whenever they end up.

    DS9: The Jem'Hadar; By Inferno's Light; the entire Dominion War. All of these included Runabouts or Peregrine fighters (which were converted courier ships like the Maquis's, which were about the same size as Runabouts) being used as combat craft alongside or in support of larger starships. That's before getting into the fact that using the shuttles to increase Disco and Enterprise's firepower against a superior force makes tactical sense.
  • mustrumridcully0mustrumridcully0 Member Posts: 12,894 Arc User
    The jump into the far future kinda scares me, though. I am not sure I am ready to deal with a big jump like that. Or the writers are.

    But the beauty is that they didn't even show the Discovery arriving. So they really have a lot of freedom what to do next.

    Of course, they might underestimate what "canon" already exists about the future - the stupid Temporal Starfleet stuff from VOY and ENT for example. I really wish that never happened. I think focusing on space exploration and keeping time travel limited works better. I like the occassional time travel paradox and story,b ut having an entire organization built around it. That's something that might work better for Doctor Who or some show like that.
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  • valoreahvaloreah Member Posts: 10,691 Arc User
    edited April 2019
    Did you see it crushing the asteroid into nothingness? Nope, it just held onto a piece of it.

    Exactly. It could immobilize them to allow the crew to vaporize them with phasers.
    They are too big to fit through the door, much less fit through the tiny opening of the half open door that was jammed.

    They don't look that big at all. In fact, look at them in relation to the size of the torpedo. They look smaller than a human.

    Post edited by valoreah on
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  • evilmark444evilmark444 Member Posts: 5,836 Arc User
    ryan218 wrote: »
    starkaos wrote: »
    valoreah wrote: »
    neoakiraii wrote: »
    Torpedo was blocking transport hence why they couldn't just beam it out into space...Trek trope number 189

    Which Trek trope prevented them from sending in those R2D2 units to pull the manual release? Or tie a rope to it and pull it from the other side?

    Or using those shuttles and landing pods as hangar pets in any other series besides Enterprise. Using those attack craft is something I expect from Star Wars not Star Trek.
    rattler2 wrote: »
    The question now is... what kind of Galaxy is Discovery in now? What is the state of the Federation? And what powers have come up as well?

    The arrival of a 23rd Century starship is going to be interesting.

    If they end up in a future version of the Federation, then it is a ton of interviews by the Department of Temporal Investigations followed by years of training in Starfleet Academy to familiarize them with future technology and procedures if they want to be part of Starfleet instead of just as a historical repository of 23rd Century life. So the most exciting thing for Season 3 of Discovery if Season 3 is still about the USS Discovery is for it to end up as Voyager in the 28th Century or whenever they end up.

    DS9: The Jem'Hadar; By Inferno's Light; the entire Dominion War. All of these included Runabouts or Peregrine fighters (which were converted courier ships like the Maquis's, which were about the same size as Runabouts) being used as combat craft alongside or in support of larger starships.
    Those occasions are exceptions, generally speaking Trek combat does not typically involve fighter squadrons or shuttles being used as combat craft. There's also the glaring issue of where the frak did they have all of those craft stored!? Neither ship has a shuttle bay large enough for so many shuttles and pods. I would have enjoyed it a lot more if they had stuck with just capital ships on both sides, would have felt much more like Star Trek rather than Star Wars.
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  • rattler2rattler2 Member Posts: 53,032 Community Moderator
    The jump into the far future kinda scares me, though. I am not sure I am ready to deal with a big jump like that. Or the writers are.

    But the beauty is that they didn't even show the Discovery arriving. So they really have a lot of freedom what to do next.

    Of course, they might underestimate what "canon" already exists about the future - the stupid Temporal Starfleet stuff from VOY and ENT for example. I really wish that never happened. I think focusing on space exploration and keeping time travel limited works better. I like the occassional time travel paradox and story,b ut having an entire organization built around it. That's something that might work better for Doctor Who or some show like that.

    Jumping into a time period we have little to know knowledge of opens the door for stories that won't conflict with established canon, as some people here have LOVED to rant and rave about despite no actual knowledge of what happened during that part of the 23rd Century. We have a wide open galaxy, a still functional Spore Drive that happens to be the ONLY one in existance, and basically a clean slate.

    As for the Temporal tech from the 29th Century... if you think about it Starfleet HAD to develop temporal tech in order to protect itself from forces that have similar tech. Its no different than any other arms race. In order to ensure their survival against an enemy that can disrupt their own development in the past, the Federation had to develop the capability as a counter. The sense I got though for the most part is that Starfleet doesn't actually jump through time unless it has to. And usually does everything it can to avoid detection by local powers, including the past Starfleet. Temporal Prime Directive sort of thing.

    Before anyone points out the Narada... Prime history recorded she just vanished without a trace. The development of the Kelvin Timeline is no different really than Sela's existance. Both are the product of a branched timeline. Neither event threatened the existance of the Federation, so Future Starfleet let it go.
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  • saurializardsaurializard Member Posts: 3,632 Arc User
    There's also the glaring issue of where the frak did they have all of those craft stored!? Neither ship has a shuttle bay large enough for so many shuttles and pods. I would have enjoyed it a lot more if they had stuck with just capital ships on both sides, would have felt much more like Star Trek rather than Star Wars.
    I guess the writers tried and succeeded in outdoing the shuttle-to-ship-size ratio errors from the Kelvin Timeline movies.
    "-JJ Abrams: The Enterprise changes sizes depending on how big I want the shuttle bay to be for cool shots!
    -DSC production: Oh yeah? Well, ours can store many dozens of shuttles and tactical pods out of subspace/hammerspace/BSspace to make a cool space fight scene!"

    One thing they could have done is to put on those shuttles every single person knowing about Discovery, her crew, the spore drive and the fall-girl of the Klingon-Fed war, so there would be a good reason why nobody would know about them in the next couples of centuries and for the plans of the Federation to un-person them to succeed in a kinda plausible way.

    Seriously, how are they gonna explain that other stupidity?
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  • starkaosstarkaos Member Posts: 11,473 Arc User
    rattler2 wrote: »
    Before anyone points out the Narada... Prime history recorded she just vanished without a trace. The development of the Kelvin Timeline is no different really than Sela's existance. Both are the product of a branched timeline. Neither event threatened the existance of the Federation, so Future Starfleet let it go.

    Sela is not the result of a branched timeline. Her mother is from a previous timeline that was erased to restore the timeline to what we know. There might have not been a Future Starfleet to care about being wiped from existence.

    The Narada calls into question the nature of time travel in Star Trek since all time travel before Star Trek 2009 required fixing the past to restore the timeline. There is nothing special about the time travel used in Star Trek 2009. Either a new timeline is created every time that the past is changed or the protagonists need to go back in time to protect the present. If a new timeline is created every time someone changes the past, then there is no need for future Starfleet to protect the past.

    So there was no need for Spock and Kirk to stop Bones in the 1930s or Picard to go back in time to stop the Borg from assimilating the Earth in the 21st Century. The only time it was necessary to travel to the past was to pick up some whales from the 1980s.
  • rattler2rattler2 Member Posts: 53,032 Community Moderator
    Actually... it kinda plays into that episode of TNG where Worf's jumping realities, and we see god knows how many Enterprises.

    Honestly Time Travel seems to be handled in two ways.
    • What happens in the past affects the future
    • Branching timelines

    For dramatic effect, most of the time we see Instance 1 of Time Travel because it adds a sense of peril. That if something isn't done, everything we know will cease to exist. Case in point First Contact.
    In at least 2 instances I can think of, we have Instance 2 of Time Travel. One being the Kelvin Timeline, the other being the timeline created when the Ent-C was pulled forward and Tasha was still alive. If we proceed forward to STO's interpretation of what happened after Yesterday's Enterprise, we clearly see that timeline actually continued into 2409, but Captain Walker from the 29th Century arrives to deal with the "abboration", thus ensuring that Ent-C gets back to her own time. In that case I'd say we had a hybrid of both Instance 1 and 2 of Time Travel, as the USS Pastak still exists.

    The thing is... Time Travel is all theoretical. We don't know how it works because we don't have the technology.
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  • starkaosstarkaos Member Posts: 11,473 Arc User
    edited April 2019
    rattler2 wrote: »
    Actually... it kinda plays into that episode of TNG where Worf's jumping realities, and we see god knows how many Enterprises.

    Honestly Time Travel seems to be handled in two ways.
    • What happens in the past affects the future
    • Branching timelines

    For dramatic effect, most of the time we see Instance 1 of Time Travel because it adds a sense of peril. That if something isn't done, everything we know will cease to exist. Case in point First Contact.
    In at least 2 instances I can think of, we have Instance 2 of Time Travel. One being the Kelvin Timeline, the other being the timeline created when the Ent-C was pulled forward and Tasha was still alive. If we proceed forward to STO's interpretation of what happened after Yesterday's Enterprise, we clearly see that timeline actually continued into 2409, but Captain Walker from the 29th Century arrives to deal with the "abboration", thus ensuring that Ent-C gets back to her own time. In that case I'd say we had a hybrid of both Instance 1 and 2 of Time Travel, as the USS Pastak still exists.

    The thing is... Time Travel is all theoretical. We don't know how it works because we don't have the technology.

    My understanding of the Yesterday's Enterprise timeline is that it was created as a result of the Enterprise-C making a pit stop a few decades in the future and was erased when the Enterprise-C went back to its appropriate time. So it replaced the original timeline and it was erased and the original timeline was eventually restored with one minor change to the original timeline. Star Trek has never established a difference between regular time travel and time travel creating branching timelines. So either all time travel is what changes in the past affects the present or they are all branching timelines which completely removes the drama in any time travel story.

    As far as First Contact goes, there are 3 timelines if we use the branching timeline theory. The original timeline where the Federation wins against the Borg, but the Enterprise-E is MIA, the assimilated Earth timeline, and the Federation wins against the Borg and the Enterprise-E returns after a few days. So Picard never restored the timeline to its original state, but created a new timeline that is extremely similar to the original.
  • saurializardsaurializard Member Posts: 3,632 Arc User
    edited April 2019
    For those who wanted to see some authentic Star Trek phasers, D7 and Klingon warriors:


    I find it quite poetic how a Cleave ship was used by the House of T'Kuvma to further crush the Federation and ensure Klingon-only supremacy at the Battle of the Binary Stars, while in the Battle near Xahea, another led by one of the last members of the House of T'Kuvma arrives to rescue Federation ships as part of a multi-species alliance to stop Control's genocidal supremacy.
    #TASforSTO
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  • shadowfang240shadowfang240 Member Posts: 35,845 Arc User
    you know, with that grey overtone to her skin, l'rell looks vaguely cardassian in that clip preview (i'm assuming that IS l'rell and not some other female klingon)​​
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  • thegrandnagus1thegrandnagus1 Member Posts: 4,529 Arc User
    edited April 2019
    About Cornwell, the torpedo, and the blast door: I thought it was really...strange...that Pike was absolutely 100% safe just because that door was there. I mean, I know it's called a "blast door", but it's one thing to say it could stop an explosive cloud that is rushing down a hallway and another thing completely to say it is 100% impervious to a torpedo exploding a couple of feet away. If it were really that impervious to damage why isn't the hull made out of that same material? I know, I know; it's not real. It just seemed strange watching it.

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  • rattler2rattler2 Member Posts: 53,032 Community Moderator
    That's L'Rell. And she was always a bit on the grey side I think.
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  • shadowfang240shadowfang240 Member Posts: 35,845 Arc User
    cost and availability - same as anything else​​
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    A normie goes "Oh, what's this?"
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    A furry goes "OwO, what's this?"
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    "It's nothing personal, I just don't feel like I've gotten to know a person until I've sniffed their crotch."

    "Curiosity is bad! It gets you in trouble, it gets you killed...and more importantly, it makes you poor!"
    Passion and Serenity are one.
    I gain power by understanding both.
    In the chaos of their battle, I bring order.
    I am a shadow, darkness born from light.
    The Force is united within me.
  • redvengeredvenge Member Posts: 1,425 Arc User
    It was neither a similar nor nearly identical scenario. One held a small piece of rock, the other crunched a bunch of nanites.
    It's not "a small piece of rock". It's "dark matter; according to the writers of Discovery" (because their "dark matter" has no basis in reality, much like their "time crystals"). It is a fantastic substance. How much energy is required for her doohickey to remove a piece of this fantastic substance? Then, there is the fact that "nano constructs" in Star Trek: Discovery are not based on science, but on tropes (like werewolves are vulnerable to silver or vampires die in sunlight). The "nano constructs" are able to form a cloud, or mist, and lift themselves up off the floor a remarkable distance. They are either fairly light, or have incredible internal power sources to overcome the ship's natural gravity. Knowing Kurtzman, my gut says "each individual nano construct has UNLIMITED POWER for it's operation".

    Of course at this point, I'm putting more thought into the tech in this show than the writers are. In any case, the answer is not nearly as clear cut as you claim it to be.
    About Cornwell, the torpedo, and the blast door: I thought it was really...strange...that Pike was absolutely 100% safe just because that door was there.
    Probably made from "dark matter". Perhaps "unobtainium". "Neverexistedite"? Best not to think about it. The writers sure didn't.
  • shadowfang240shadowfang240 Member Posts: 35,845 Arc User
    dark matter's 'basis in reality' is that it exists, and it has some sort of gravitational effect on the universe...that's it - nothing else is KNOWN about it, just theorized

    sci-fi, DC comics, videogames, whatever...can say whatever the hell it wants about it, and each instance of it ever used has as equal a chance of being correct as it does of being incorrect​​
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    A normie goes "Oh, what's this?"
    An otaku goes "UwU, what's this?"
    A furry goes "OwO, what's this?"
    A werewolf goes "Awoo, what's this?"


    "It's nothing personal, I just don't feel like I've gotten to know a person until I've sniffed their crotch."

    "Curiosity is bad! It gets you in trouble, it gets you killed...and more importantly, it makes you poor!"
    Passion and Serenity are one.
    I gain power by understanding both.
    In the chaos of their battle, I bring order.
    I am a shadow, darkness born from light.
    The Force is united within me.
  • redvengeredvenge Member Posts: 1,425 Arc User
    I find it quite poetic how a Cleave ship was used by the House of T'Kuvma to further crush the Federation and ensure Klingon-only supremacy at the Battle of the Binary Stars, while in the Battle near Xahea, another led by one of the last members of the House of T'Kuvma arrives to rescue Federation ships as part of a multi-species alliance to stop Control's genocidal supremacy.
    Eh... didn't the Discovery figure out how to render the cloaking device "obsolete"? Didn't they give that information to Starfleet? Wouldn't Control have that information? I thought that scene was even dumber than the scene at the Battle of the Binary Stars.

    However, Control just seems to suffer "terminal stupidity" throughout this episode, so, meh. Crazy, stupid AI is gonna be a crazy, stupid AI.
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