What about the other viewpoint? Suppose I had a RL emergency? Am I supposed to complete Assault on Terok Nor first? To avoid inconveniencing you and then afterwards take myself/kid/dog to the hospital?
What about those of us with a TRIBBLE internet connection? Not everyone who plays STO can afford the best of everything. So now we're going to publicly berate some poor kid in public housing whose parents are on government assistance? Perhaps we should leave STO to the idle rich which the rest of us go back to the fields like good little peons.
As to Darkblade's suggestion: Ban me from STO for five hours for something like this and you'll not worry about having to do so a second time. I'll be long gone. Along with your Moderator position here. No game no forums. Appears to me you've let what imaginary power you think you have go straight to your head.
There is a reason I seldom come here any more. Thank you for giving yet another reminder of why.
A couple of things need to be clarified.
First and foremost if you have a RL emergency then handle your business, and I even said this in my first post here. Neither myself or anyone else is suggesting otherwise. If someone is suggesting otherwise they are sorely mistaken.
Secondly, I never said the word ban anywhere in that post. What I did say however was leaver penalty, which is NOT the same thing as an outright ban. A leaver/afk penalty simply means one is unable to join the TFO queues for a time, but otherwise are still able to do anything else in game.
In regards to your example of subpar or otherwise bad internet connection, the system already makes for allowances for just such a thing. If you are randomly disconnected for whatever reason, you are given a window of time in which you can reconnect to the game and get put back into the map. If you don't make it back in time, only then does the game consider awarding a leaver penalty. Even then you still might not get a penalty.
As for the insults directed towards me, I will not dignify them with a response. With all of this said there's a few things you need to understand.
As it sits right now if someone gets a queue they don't like, all they had to do was as another user suggested, swap toons and it avoids the penalty. This is not even remotely close to someone leaving due to Real Life reasons or temporarily losing their internet connection. Someone who leaves due to RL reasons or temporarily losing internet is leaving due to no fault of their own. Someone who toon swaps is actively and intentionally swapping toons specifically for the sole purpose of avoiding playing a queue they signed up for. Thus in the process they intentionally foul it up for the other 4 people in the team and all but guarantee they will be a man down or worse, fail objectives in the queue, or fail the queue itself. Thus the one you mentioned is something that occurs through no fault of the end user. The one we were discussing prior occurs only as a result of the end user, thus the difference. If you leave due to RL issue or internet takes a spaz, that's perfectly understandable. If someone leaves simply because they don't want to play the random queue the system gives them, that means they lied to the other people in that TFO and lied to the system since they had no real intentions of playing that queue.
In a situation like that I absolutely believe folks deserve some kind of account wide leaver penalty. Far as to how long it should be we can debate that point. Unless you're leaving due to a RL issue or your internet took a spaz, I don't see what's bad about expecting people to play the queue or eat the penalty because their antics effect other people beyond themselves. I also see nothing wrong with expecting folks to pull their weight either but that's another debate entirely.
Otherwise I stand by my previous statements.
I also stand by my previous statements.
There is an awful lot of explaining going on here. To me or to the crowd? Or, as I suspect is the case, to yourself.
Please note I did not mention not penalizing people for bailing on a TFO they do not like. Your suggestion for an "improvement" to the Leaver Penalty is similar to the cries of the Red Queen from Alice Through the Looking Glass. As I read your post, the tone and vocabulary screamed "Off with their heads!" to me.
@baddmoonrizin I am aware moderator is an unpaid voluntary position. No reason to whip that out as a plea for sympathy form the crowd. I've no problem with a moderator having an opinion which differs from mine. I have a huge problem with anyone who hides behind whatever position of authority they have as a way to suppress viewpoints they do not agree with. If the heat is too much for you, perhaps it is time to leave the kitchen?
A six year old boy and his starship. Living the dream.
for a moment those that use the bank will not have to worry for that thief.
Except it doesn't work this way on the Internet. Sticking a penalty on a burner account that someone is using to troll you has NO MEANINGFUL IMPACT.
There are no trolls. Someone leaving a queue isn't even worth noticing most of the time. 90% of (non-Elite) queues can be soloed, 99% two-manned and all of them three-manned.
There are just some dishonest people using an exploit to re-roll their random queues to have their cake and eat it too. And booting them from the RTFOs (and fixing the bug they're exploiting) will most certainly have meaningful impact.
Star Trek Online Volunteer Community Moderator and Resident She-Wolf
Community Moderators are Unpaid Volunteers and NOT Employees of Gearbox/Cryptic
Views and Opinions May Not Reflect the Views and Opinions of Gearbox/Cryptic
I see it in the NoP channel all the time, there are a few there that are promoting AFK games. I won't put the names here but I know who they are. They teach and tell everyone in the channel to que up a game then AFK it. They also game bash all day long and slander Cryiptic as well, and I am not sure why they even play. It puts the team at a big disadvantage to have them sit out like that. They say that if the just shoot once and stop you do not get the penalty imposed by the game. In World of Tanks if you do that you get a 1 hour ban from special events, then after that a 24 hour game ban. If you keep doing it you could loose your account. I think that STO should adopt something like this.
There are no trolls. Someone leaving a queue isn't even worth noticing most of the time. 90% of (non-Elite) queues can be soloed, 99% two-manned and all of them three-manned.
Oh, there are definitely trolls, believe me. Like I said, there's a semi-organized community thereof.
There are just some dishonest people using an exploit to re-roll their random queues to have their cake and eat it too. And booting them from the RTFOs (and fixing the bug they're exploiting) will most certainly have meaningful impact.
Meh, those people are amateurs, and I really don't think that they're so much trying to do anything shady as it is that there is a small subset of the queues that are just deeply, deeply unpalatable.
...and it's absolutely hilarious to troll people into being in those queues. What you're seeing is not the trolls, but the victims.
"Deeply unpalatable" in STO-land is pretty much anything that requires doing anything at all besides blind mashing the fire all weapons button. I do have to admit I snicker at the thought of drawing in a bunch of whiners every time I queue something "unpopular," but I'd hardly call that trolling.
And as I said, doing queues a rando or two short isn't worth noticing most of the time...so I don't. I just see this "queue leavers" issue here on the forums. My only interest in the matter is the integrity of the RTFO rules as it applies to the extra reward, something the leavers seek to subvert.
The perennial problem is this: The more the troll annoys (and/or torments) someone, the more the troll enjoys it.
Most of these people are not traditional trolls. The griefing is a side effect. They want rewards for no work. So they get N toons 'running' RTFOs at the same time and just cycle back to them when whatever timer they set says the run is done. And the sad part is these players freely admit in chat how they game the system for maximum rewards w/o doing anything. This method has even been named after a particular STO player who does this a lot.
I've encountered them in forums, whining about how much "work" they have to do to earn their rewards. Why can't they just blow through something like the Crystalline Catastrophe in a minute or less and get the full reward(s)? You'd think they were stuck at, say, age 10 (or less) and never grew up. I remember a few years ago or so when a fellow STO player (age 12) mentioned in chat to me, with their disgust almost palpable: "I've just chatted with a 20-year-old [or 30-year-old] who was acting like a 10-year-old." And I replied, "I'm sorry, but those sorts of players do exist here. I wish they didn't." Haven't heard from that player (the 12-year-old) in a long while. Hope they're still on STO.
And then there's the folks who were boasting in STO's forums about how fast they could blow through a mission or event prior to Delta Rising going live, and challenging Cryptic to create an elite mission or missions with harder enemies and harder weapons. It wouldn't surprise me if they were the same ones complaining after Delta Rising went live about how hard the enemies were (even if the enemies weren't exactly challenging beyond quite a bit more HP and more powerful shields and weapons) and why didn't Cryptic give the players better shields, weapons, etc. to fight the harder enemies with. There's no pleasing this type of player, apparently.
I like the account wide leave penalty thing for 1 to x hours.
Now we've all been stuck in a broken queue (Swarm, for example) where you have no choice but to leave and getting an account wide leaver penalty would really suck. But I'd grudgingly take that, if it meant these multi-afkers got shut down.
Agreed. I was in a Borg-related ground STF mission (I don't remember the name of it), and I ended up the last person still playing it. Everyone else in the team had vanished, leaving me alone. (And It wasn't a mission that one could win alone - at least not back then.) I finally gave up and left the mission. Afterward, I asked a fellow player if I would get penalized for leaving the mission. They said no, it doesn't affect the last player to leave. I have no idea why the other team members left. Maybe an optional goal hadn't been reached and they didn't want to put any further effort and time into the mission? Or maybe someone just had a problem or problems at home? Could've been anything.
Best thing would be if Cryptic could get logged out toons to leave a RTFO after 2-3 mins so when they do log back in, they are back in sector space or whatever. A 2-3 min window would let people who's client crashed a bit of an opportuntiy to reboot and log back into the game and still be in the TFO. (I've done that a few times where entering a TFO makes my game client freeze up and I quickly reboot/log back in and can then participate.)
Again agreed. How could any game figure out what's going wrong on the player's end? Could be software-related, hardware-related, internet-connection-related, sudden-bathroom-break-related, or needing to feed one's child or children, or any other number of reasons. It doesn't necessarily have to be anything ego-related (like rage-quitting).
But then there would probably be certain players who would exploit this sort of loophole (that would there to help players who *want* to play and have fun) in order to ruin other players' fun.
Best thing would be if Cryptic could get logged out toons to leave a RTFO after 2-3 mins so when they do log back in, they are back in sector space or whatever. A 2-3 min window would let people who's client crashed a bit of an opportuntiy to reboot and log back into the game and still be in the TFO. (I've done that a few times where entering a TFO makes my game client freeze up and I quickly reboot/log back in and can then participate.)
That used to be a thing. It was apparently removed with the last queue system revamp, along with the ability for leaving players to be replaced by new ones from the queue.
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rattler2Member, Star Trek Online ModeratorPosts: 58,666Community Moderator
Agreed. I was in a Borg-related ground STF mission (I don't remember the name of it), and I ended up the last person still playing it. Everyone else in the team had vanished, leaving me alone. (And It wasn't a mission that one could win alone - at least not back then.) I finally gave up and left the mission. Afterward, I asked a fellow player if I would get penalized for leaving the mission. They said no, it doesn't affect the last player to leave.
Infected and Kitomer ground you can't solo even today because there are elements that REQUIRE up to 2 other people to proceed. Cure... probably need a full team through and through. As for leaver penalty... I believe its the last two do not get one. But yes... for sure last person left does not get a penalty.
I can't take it anymore! Could everyone just chill out for two seconds before something CRAZY happens again?!
The nut who actually ground out many packs. The resident forum voice of reason (I HAZ FORUM REP! YAY!)
normal text = me speaking as fellow formite colored text = mod mode
Best thing would be if Cryptic could get logged out toons to leave a RTFO after 2-3 mins so when they do log back in, they are back in sector space or whatever. A 2-3 min window would let people who's client crashed a bit of an opportuntiy to reboot and log back into the game and still be in the TFO. (I've done that a few times where entering a TFO makes my game client freeze up and I quickly reboot/log back in and can then participate.)
That used to be a thing. It was apparently removed with the last queue system revamp, along with the ability for leaving players to be replaced by new ones from the queue.
I dunno, I got dumped into a Pahvo yesterday that had had a player leave. I got there right as the final phase started. BUT this was the game doing it automatically.
I see it in the ... channel all the time, there are a few there that are promoting AFK games. I won't put the names here but I know who they are. They teach and tell everyone in the channel to que up a game then AFK it. They also game bash all day long and slander Cryptic as well, and I am not sure why they even play. It puts the team at a big disadvantage to have them sit out like that. They say that if the just shoot once and stop you do not get the penalty imposed by the game. In World of Tanks if you do that you get a 1 hour ban from special events, then after that a 24 hour game ban. If you keep doing it you could loose your account. I think that STO should adopt something like this.
Surely this channel has moderators and/or a code of conduct? I've been told it's one of the larger channels in-game and that it's purpose is to help players, something that I've seen it do very well. Promoting AFK gaming just isn't cool.
People have a right to their opinions. They aren't breaking rules by speaking.
I agree completely. I'm a moderator of a very old and frequently used channel myself. Any promotion of AFK gaming would be highly discouraged as even though it takes advantage of a loophole it would be labelled as a potential exploit and therefore against that channel's rules.
They need to add an Active Space and Active Ground Reputation breakup like they did with the Personal Traits. Same thing with Primary and Secondary Specializations. Then we are done with this incessant wailing and knashing.
'But to be logical is not to be right', and 'nothing' on God's earth could ever 'make it' right!'
Judge Dan Haywood
'As l speak now, the words are forming in my head.
l don't know.
l really don't know what l'm about to say, except l have a feeling about it.
That l must repeat the words that come without my knowledge.'
Lt. Philip J. Minns
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rattler2Member, Star Trek Online ModeratorPosts: 58,666Community Moderator
Well, another significant thing to keep in mind is that, currently, with no way to separate ground/space configurations, someone can be queued for something for which they are simply not configured to do and therefore cannot do anything in. And since you cannot be configured for both, you have to pick one and guess wildly, and if you're wrong? None of your buttons work and you are a brick.
If you're referring to specializations... most of them are dual space/ground. Only ones that aren't are Specialist, Commando, and Pilot. And two of those are secondary only.
So saying you are TOTALLY useless is actually false. If you're running Command/Intel, you're using both in both Space and Ground. If you're using Intel/Pilot, then you are semi nerfed on the ground, but can still fight just fine.
Active rep powers... just do 2 space and 2 ground, preferably your favorites. Boom. You're ready for anything.
Honestly I don't understand how someone can say they can't do anything if they aren't 100% ground spec'd or space spec'd. Kinda feels like saying my gun isn't the absolute best so I can't use it.
Set yourself up to be ready for anything right off the bat, and you're good. If you're setting up a premade, then yea go ahead and switch specs to maximize potential. But if you're gonna go random... just be ready for anything.
I can't take it anymore! Could everyone just chill out for two seconds before something CRAZY happens again?!
The nut who actually ground out many packs. The resident forum voice of reason (I HAZ FORUM REP! YAY!)
normal text = me speaking as fellow formite colored text = mod mode
If your powers aren't activating when they're supposed to, then you can't do anything.
with no way to separate ground/space configurations, someone can be queued for something for which they are simply not configured to do and therefore cannot do anything.
And since you cannot be configured for both, you have to pick one and guess wildly, and if you're wrong? None of your buttons work and you are a brick.
At this point someone has two options: Hang around as dead weight, completely unable to contribute anything of value, or leave.
The other issue is that the system still queues you for things that you've already burned your reward on, so you're no longer getting paid. If I'm not getting paid, I see no reason why I should work. Which brings us back to the two options: You can then walk off, since no pay, no work, or you can sit around and not do anything, because no pay, no work.
If your powers aren't activating when they're supposed to, then you can't do anything.
with no way to separate ground/space configurations, someone can be queued for something for which they are simply not configured to do and therefore cannot do anything.
And since you cannot be configured for both, you have to pick one and guess wildly, and if you're wrong? None of your buttons work and you are a brick.
At this point someone has two options: Hang around as dead weight, completely unable to contribute anything of value, or leave.
The other issue is that the system still queues you for things that you've already burned your reward on, so you're no longer getting paid. If I'm not getting paid, I see no reason why I should work. Which brings us back to the two options: You can then walk off, since no pay, no work, or you can sit around and not do anything, because no pay, no work.
Interesting.
More like, odd. I haven't had any problem participating in any RTFO that I've queued for, regardless of how I'm outfitted. And that's a poor attitude to take as well. "I ain't gettin' paid, so I ain't liftin' a finger." I participate in every RTFO that I queue for, whether I like the queue or not, whether I'm any good at the queue or not, whether I've played it before or not, whether I've gotten my bonus that day already or not. Why? Because it's the right thing to do. Hitting that RTFO button is like entering a social contract that says, "I'm here to help YOU out on whatever queue YOU have chosen, because it doesn't really matter to me what queue I play as long as I get to play." Refusing to participate is a violation of that social contract, in my opinion, and I for one, have been pushing for an account-wide penalty for those who bail on it.
Star Trek Online Volunteer Community Moderator and Resident She-Wolf
Community Moderators are Unpaid Volunteers and NOT Employees of Gearbox/Cryptic
Views and Opinions May Not Reflect the Views and Opinions of Gearbox/Cryptic
They need to add an Active Space and Active Ground Reputation breakup like they did with the Personal Traits. Same thing with Primary and Secondary Specializations. Then we are done with this incessant wailing and knashing.
Given how there is all of ONE space-only Spec, and ONE ground-only Spec, it's a problem created by player build choices. To have no Specs working on ground requires you to intentionally avoid buying ground skills.
Thing is, unless doing Elite, you don't NEED ground specs. Normal is balanced under the assumption that you don't have them yet. Advanced is a bit iffy, but a person with no specs is usually more useful than no one at all. I mean, assuming you know how to the ground combat controls work and are trying to help your team.
As I said, it will dispose of all the whining, which is a good thing. The easier thing of all of this is the Active Space and Ground Reputation Traits as they already did this with the Personal Traits. 'They have the technology. They can make it better than it was. Better, stronger, faster.'
Right now my Discovery Character just usually runs Intel/Commando as I am doing mostly ground. But I leave it on even in space. Not a big deal.
'But to be logical is not to be right', and 'nothing' on God's earth could ever 'make it' right!'
Judge Dan Haywood
'As l speak now, the words are forming in my head.
l don't know.
l really don't know what l'm about to say, except l have a feeling about it.
That l must repeat the words that come without my knowledge.'
Yeah, well, refusing to pay me is a violation of my employment contract, so guess what takes priority? You try not paying your workers, see how much work you get out of them.
Um... this isn't a job. Its a game.
You do if they're part of your CDM. Otherwise you push the button and NOTHING HAPPENS. You are physically unable to function! Your ship stops dead in space, your gun doesn't fire, nothing works. In 15 seconds when it's time to push the button again, because the button did not function previously, it's still broken. Breaking CDM breaks the entire build, rendering the entire thing inoperable, like ripping out someone's heart.
Um... wut? First off... what is CDM? Second... how does it TOTALLY shut you down until you can't even do anything? Do you have no power? Do you have all your gear stripped off just because you're not running certain things? Does your computer just lock up or something?
I can't take it anymore! Could everyone just chill out for two seconds before something CRAZY happens again?!
The nut who actually ground out many packs. The resident forum voice of reason (I HAZ FORUM REP! YAY!)
normal text = me speaking as fellow formite colored text = mod mode
Best thing would be if Cryptic could get logged out toons to leave a RTFO after 2-3 mins so when they do log back in, they are back in sector space or whatever. A 2-3 min window would let people who's client crashed a bit of an opportuntiy to reboot and log back into the game and still be in the TFO. (I've done that a few times where entering a TFO makes my game client freeze up and I quickly reboot/log back in and can then participate.)
That used to be a thing. It was apparently removed with the last queue system revamp, along with the ability for leaving players to be replaced by new ones from the queue.
I dunno, I got dumped into a Pahvo yesterday that had had a player leave. I got there right as the final phase started. BUT this was the game doing it automatically.
Same thing happened to me yesterday.
The difference is that in both instances the player probably left the TFO and take the leaver penalty.
When players switch characters they keep the spot in the team occupied.
This program, though reasonably normal at times, seems to have a strong affinity to classes belonging to the Cat 2.0 program. Questerius 2.7 will break down on occasion, resulting in garbage and nonsense messages whenever it occurs. Usually a hard reboot or pulling the plug solves the problem when that happens.
I can get behind the idea of allowing us to have group spec set-ups an space set-ups, but not for the reason most have here, since the idea of needing it to do content right now is just asinine. I would not mind having it as then you might see the devs create more specs that are geared towards either ground or space combat specifically, over feeling the need to make hybrid space/ground specs that safely cna be used in either.
There is an awful lot of explaining going on here. To me or to the crowd? Or, as I suspect is the case, to yourself.
Please note I did not mention not penalizing people for bailing on a TFO they do not like. Your suggestion for an "improvement" to the Leaver Penalty is similar to the cries of the Red Queen from Alice Through the Looking Glass. As I read your post, the tone and vocabulary screamed "Off with their heads!" to me.
@baddmoonrizin I am aware moderator is an unpaid voluntary position. No reason to whip that out as a plea for sympathy form the crowd. I've no problem with a moderator having an opinion which differs from mine. I have a huge problem with anyone who hides behind whatever position of authority they have as a way to suppress viewpoints they do not agree with. If the heat is too much for you, perhaps it is time to leave the kitchen?
Take a couple of deep breaths and read what I said both times SLOWLY and you will have the answer you were seeking. You should also note I already answered your complaints about dropped internet connection and Real Life emergencies twice. The system already allows for exceptions due to events beyond the control of the user. So your complaint about those issues has been answered. If you have a real life emergency or your internet drops, handle your business and do what you gotta do.
Now in regards to folks bailing out of the queues. The original post was in regards to people actively deciding to swap to another character to dodge a leaver penalty to avoid playing a queue they don't like. In other words they want to play only the queues they like but still want the random TFO completion rewards. In a nutshell they want to have their cake and eat it too, and it doesn't work like that. In other words they have found a way to get around an otherwise deserved penalty in their attempts to game the system. These people aren't leaving because they've had a real life emergency, or their internet took a dip, they're actively staying in the game and swapping to another character keep playing and dodge a penalty that otherwise would've been given to them. That's a little thing called griefing and intentionally fouls up the run for the other 4 people. Far as I'm concerned what someone does on their own time in game is up to them, but when someone intentionally does something to mess the run up for everyone else, that's when I get steamed as now one person is effecting the gameplay of 4 other people. No single person in this game is so important that they have a right to foul up the run for 4 other people and expect nothing to happen. So yes when someone actively griefs I have a right to be steamed and say they should be penalized.
Secondly, who is trying to suppress your viewpoint? This is news to me. PM their name to me or report the post of the person telling you that you are not allowed to post and it will be dealt with. We don't allow that sort of gatekeeping here. With that said, someone disagreeing with you or pointing out flaws in your logic or post, or offering a counterpoint is NOT suppressing your viewpoint, that's debate. Folks are free to debate until they're blue in the face, but there are still rules of conduct that must be adhered to. If and when a post is moderated this is because a violation has taken place.
Well, another significant thing to keep in mind is that, currently, with no way to separate ground/space configurations, someone can be queued for something for which they are simply not configured to do and therefore cannot do anything in. And since you cannot be configured for both, you have to pick one and guess wildly, and if you're wrong? None of your buttons work and you are a brick.
At this point someone has two options: Hang around as dead weight, completely unable to contribute anything of value, or leave. Suffice it to say, choosing either option seems to greatly displease some people, so there's no win here.
The other issue is that the system still queues you for things that you've already burned your reward on, so you're no longer getting paid. If I'm not getting paid, I see no reason why I should work. Which brings us back to the two options: You can then walk off, since no pay, no work, or you can sit around and not do anything, because no pay, no work.
Yeah, well, refusing to pay me is a violation of my employment contract, so guess what takes priority? You try not paying your workers, see how much work you get out of them.
What you're describing of things not working sounds like a bug or something technical. In which case I would advise you to file a bug report so it can be fixed. If the devs don't know about it and no one reports it then it can't be fixed and your problems will continue. It's best to configure your toon with basic builds for ground and space so that you're prepared for whatever the system throws at you. If you're configured primarily for space, but get a ground queue, at least then you would be able to function in that situation. It won't be to the level of a dedicated ground toon but you would still be able to function.
There are ground and space rewards that can be acquired through the story missions that will allow folks to get basic builds for ground and space together so they can contribute to the team. Mirrors and Smoke the Kentari mission has a really great set of ground gear to get people started with. You can also pick up super cheap kit modules from the exchange or get them for free from missions. There's also a ton of missions that give space gear as well. Newer players may not know where to go to get those items, but as veteran players we should know by now where to go and what to do to get that gear. There's no reason for veteran players like either of us to not have a basic functioning build if we're going to go into a queue.
In regards to burning the reward and getting paid. When you join a random queue you are telling the system you don't care what it puts you in, just let you play something. If you don't want to risk getting a queue that you've already gotten the daily bonus marks for, then don't press the random button if all you're going to do is just leave when you get a queue you don't want. The solution to your problem already exists, queue for the specific TFOs you still need a daily bonus for and don't press the random button.
From time to time I repair computers in my local area for people. Let's suppose I agree to fix a computer for someone for $100, or $125 if I can get it back to him in less than 5 days. Let's suppose due to the nature of the fix it takes me 7 days to fix the computer. As such at the end of the job I only get paid the $100. I then have no business complaining that he didn't pay me the extra $25 because I agreed to those conditions before I took the job. Now if I completed the job in 3 days and he stiffed me the extra $25, THEN I would have a right to complain.
In the instance of the game, when you press that random button you are agreeing to whatever payment the queue gives you, whether it's one that comes with a bonus or one that no longer gives a bonus. If you complete a queue and get exactly what the queue said it would give you, then you have no business complaining it didn't give you enough afterwards when you agreed to it. to agree to it and then bail out when it's not a "job" you want is not fair to the other "workers" who are now a man down.
"Someone once told me that time was a predator that stalked us all our lives. I rather believe that time is a companion who goes with us on the journey and reminds us to cherish every moment, because it will never come again." - Jean Luc Picard in Star Trek Generations
1. You don't argue with moderators. It's a situation where you simply force them to impose the sole authority that they have in their life over something. This does not apply here, it is a general advice. When the moderator (regardless of how mentally dislexic he/she/it may seem) starts to take sides or behave in an inappropriate manner, remember important pointers:
A. He/She/It is not an employee of the company. It is unpaid work and the effort should be appreciated. The company's views are not represented by the mods.
B. If you feel like you are the victim of injustice, make screen shots and report him further, instead of arguing. This way you can ensure that you've done things properly.
C. If you'd be in his/her/its spot, you'd probably be at a discomfort as well.
D. Mods are also people. They can also be dismissed from their positions of strength and imagined authority. The customer is always right. The volunteer is not. Understand this formula and then you'll understand why some mods hold a grudge in the back of their heads. Not all of them, and props to the ones who don't.
2. Some anti-troll measurements may penalize legitimate underperforming users (which is double-dipping unjust). Penalties are something to be handled carefully as a feature.
3. If we have a friendly society, the number of trolls will be so small that the ones remaining will be able to finish the event easily. With this attitude, you're helping the troll and sabotaging yourself and your teammates.
4. NoP Channel is a place of strange. I got kicked/banned some time ago when I received a free TR-116b from a guy and I stated that I want to offer him 500.000 ec back for his effort. They said it was "trade". I don't wanna point out other strange happenings, but it's a place of strange.
Nice thing is that the more you highlight something that is nothing more than an exploit that ruins the game for others the sooner it will get shut down. If that's your intent, I thank you.
Comments
I also stand by my previous statements.
There is an awful lot of explaining going on here. To me or to the crowd? Or, as I suspect is the case, to yourself.
Please note I did not mention not penalizing people for bailing on a TFO they do not like. Your suggestion for an "improvement" to the Leaver Penalty is similar to the cries of the Red Queen from Alice Through the Looking Glass. As I read your post, the tone and vocabulary screamed "Off with their heads!" to me.
@baddmoonrizin I am aware moderator is an unpaid voluntary position. No reason to whip that out as a plea for sympathy form the crowd. I've no problem with a moderator having an opinion which differs from mine. I have a huge problem with anyone who hides behind whatever position of authority they have as a way to suppress viewpoints they do not agree with. If the heat is too much for you, perhaps it is time to leave the kitchen?
There are just some dishonest people using an exploit to re-roll their random queues to have their cake and eat it too. And booting them from the RTFOs (and fixing the bug they're exploiting) will most certainly have meaningful impact.
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And as I said, doing queues a rando or two short isn't worth noticing most of the time...so I don't. I just see this "queue leavers" issue here on the forums. My only interest in the matter is the integrity of the RTFO rules as it applies to the extra reward, something the leavers seek to subvert.
I've encountered them in forums, whining about how much "work" they have to do to earn their rewards. Why can't they just blow through something like the Crystalline Catastrophe in a minute or less and get the full reward(s)? You'd think they were stuck at, say, age 10 (or less) and never grew up. I remember a few years ago or so when a fellow STO player (age 12) mentioned in chat to me, with their disgust almost palpable: "I've just chatted with a 20-year-old [or 30-year-old] who was acting like a 10-year-old." And I replied, "I'm sorry, but those sorts of players do exist here. I wish they didn't." Haven't heard from that player (the 12-year-old) in a long while. Hope they're still on STO.
And then there's the folks who were boasting in STO's forums about how fast they could blow through a mission or event prior to Delta Rising going live, and challenging Cryptic to create an elite mission or missions with harder enemies and harder weapons. It wouldn't surprise me if they were the same ones complaining after Delta Rising went live about how hard the enemies were (even if the enemies weren't exactly challenging beyond quite a bit more HP and more powerful shields and weapons) and why didn't Cryptic give the players better shields, weapons, etc. to fight the harder enemies with. There's no pleasing this type of player, apparently.
Agreed. I was in a Borg-related ground STF mission (I don't remember the name of it), and I ended up the last person still playing it. Everyone else in the team had vanished, leaving me alone. (And It wasn't a mission that one could win alone - at least not back then.) I finally gave up and left the mission. Afterward, I asked a fellow player if I would get penalized for leaving the mission. They said no, it doesn't affect the last player to leave. I have no idea why the other team members left. Maybe an optional goal hadn't been reached and they didn't want to put any further effort and time into the mission? Or maybe someone just had a problem or problems at home? Could've been anything.
Again agreed. How could any game figure out what's going wrong on the player's end? Could be software-related, hardware-related, internet-connection-related, sudden-bathroom-break-related, or needing to feed one's child or children, or any other number of reasons. It doesn't necessarily have to be anything ego-related (like rage-quitting).
But then there would probably be certain players who would exploit this sort of loophole (that would there to help players who *want* to play and have fun) in order to ruin other players' fun.
Infected and Kitomer ground you can't solo even today because there are elements that REQUIRE up to 2 other people to proceed. Cure... probably need a full team through and through. As for leaver penalty... I believe its the last two do not get one. But yes... for sure last person left does not get a penalty.
normal text = me speaking as fellow formite
colored text = mod mode
My character Tsin'xing
l don't know.
l really don't know what l'm about to say, except l have a feeling about it.
That l must repeat the words that come without my knowledge.'
If you're referring to specializations... most of them are dual space/ground. Only ones that aren't are Specialist, Commando, and Pilot. And two of those are secondary only.
So saying you are TOTALLY useless is actually false. If you're running Command/Intel, you're using both in both Space and Ground. If you're using Intel/Pilot, then you are semi nerfed on the ground, but can still fight just fine.
Active rep powers... just do 2 space and 2 ground, preferably your favorites. Boom. You're ready for anything.
Honestly I don't understand how someone can say they can't do anything if they aren't 100% ground spec'd or space spec'd. Kinda feels like saying my gun isn't the absolute best so I can't use it.
Set yourself up to be ready for anything right off the bat, and you're good. If you're setting up a premade, then yea go ahead and switch specs to maximize potential. But if you're gonna go random... just be ready for anything.
normal text = me speaking as fellow formite
colored text = mod mode
More like, odd. I haven't had any problem participating in any RTFO that I've queued for, regardless of how I'm outfitted. And that's a poor attitude to take as well. "I ain't gettin' paid, so I ain't liftin' a finger." I participate in every RTFO that I queue for, whether I like the queue or not, whether I'm any good at the queue or not, whether I've played it before or not, whether I've gotten my bonus that day already or not. Why? Because it's the right thing to do. Hitting that RTFO button is like entering a social contract that says, "I'm here to help YOU out on whatever queue YOU have chosen, because it doesn't really matter to me what queue I play as long as I get to play." Refusing to participate is a violation of that social contract, in my opinion, and I for one, have been pushing for an account-wide penalty for those who bail on it.
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Thing is, unless doing Elite, you don't NEED ground specs. Normal is balanced under the assumption that you don't have them yet. Advanced is a bit iffy, but a person with no specs is usually more useful than no one at all. I mean, assuming you know how to the ground combat controls work and are trying to help your team.
My character Tsin'xing
Right now my Discovery Character just usually runs Intel/Commando as I am doing mostly ground. But I leave it on even in space. Not a big deal.
l don't know.
l really don't know what l'm about to say, except l have a feeling about it.
That l must repeat the words that come without my knowledge.'
Actually... I think there's 2 space only. Pilot (primary) and Specialist (secondary).
Um... this isn't a job. Its a game.
Um... wut? First off... what is CDM? Second... how does it TOTALLY shut you down until you can't even do anything? Do you have no power? Do you have all your gear stripped off just because you're not running certain things? Does your computer just lock up or something?
I'm sorry but you're just not making sense.
normal text = me speaking as fellow formite
colored text = mod mode
Same thing happened to me yesterday.
The difference is that in both instances the player probably left the TFO and take the leaver penalty.
When players switch characters they keep the spot in the team occupied.
Take a couple of deep breaths and read what I said both times SLOWLY and you will have the answer you were seeking. You should also note I already answered your complaints about dropped internet connection and Real Life emergencies twice. The system already allows for exceptions due to events beyond the control of the user. So your complaint about those issues has been answered. If you have a real life emergency or your internet drops, handle your business and do what you gotta do.
Now in regards to folks bailing out of the queues. The original post was in regards to people actively deciding to swap to another character to dodge a leaver penalty to avoid playing a queue they don't like. In other words they want to play only the queues they like but still want the random TFO completion rewards. In a nutshell they want to have their cake and eat it too, and it doesn't work like that. In other words they have found a way to get around an otherwise deserved penalty in their attempts to game the system. These people aren't leaving because they've had a real life emergency, or their internet took a dip, they're actively staying in the game and swapping to another character keep playing and dodge a penalty that otherwise would've been given to them. That's a little thing called griefing and intentionally fouls up the run for the other 4 people. Far as I'm concerned what someone does on their own time in game is up to them, but when someone intentionally does something to mess the run up for everyone else, that's when I get steamed as now one person is effecting the gameplay of 4 other people. No single person in this game is so important that they have a right to foul up the run for 4 other people and expect nothing to happen. So yes when someone actively griefs I have a right to be steamed and say they should be penalized.
Secondly, who is trying to suppress your viewpoint? This is news to me. PM their name to me or report the post of the person telling you that you are not allowed to post and it will be dealt with. We don't allow that sort of gatekeeping here. With that said, someone disagreeing with you or pointing out flaws in your logic or post, or offering a counterpoint is NOT suppressing your viewpoint, that's debate. Folks are free to debate until they're blue in the face, but there are still rules of conduct that must be adhered to. If and when a post is moderated this is because a violation has taken place.
What you're describing of things not working sounds like a bug or something technical. In which case I would advise you to file a bug report so it can be fixed. If the devs don't know about it and no one reports it then it can't be fixed and your problems will continue. It's best to configure your toon with basic builds for ground and space so that you're prepared for whatever the system throws at you. If you're configured primarily for space, but get a ground queue, at least then you would be able to function in that situation. It won't be to the level of a dedicated ground toon but you would still be able to function.
There are ground and space rewards that can be acquired through the story missions that will allow folks to get basic builds for ground and space together so they can contribute to the team. Mirrors and Smoke the Kentari mission has a really great set of ground gear to get people started with. You can also pick up super cheap kit modules from the exchange or get them for free from missions. There's also a ton of missions that give space gear as well. Newer players may not know where to go to get those items, but as veteran players we should know by now where to go and what to do to get that gear. There's no reason for veteran players like either of us to not have a basic functioning build if we're going to go into a queue.
In regards to burning the reward and getting paid. When you join a random queue you are telling the system you don't care what it puts you in, just let you play something. If you don't want to risk getting a queue that you've already gotten the daily bonus marks for, then don't press the random button if all you're going to do is just leave when you get a queue you don't want. The solution to your problem already exists, queue for the specific TFOs you still need a daily bonus for and don't press the random button.
From time to time I repair computers in my local area for people. Let's suppose I agree to fix a computer for someone for $100, or $125 if I can get it back to him in less than 5 days. Let's suppose due to the nature of the fix it takes me 7 days to fix the computer. As such at the end of the job I only get paid the $100. I then have no business complaining that he didn't pay me the extra $25 because I agreed to those conditions before I took the job. Now if I completed the job in 3 days and he stiffed me the extra $25, THEN I would have a right to complain.
In the instance of the game, when you press that random button you are agreeing to whatever payment the queue gives you, whether it's one that comes with a bonus or one that no longer gives a bonus. If you complete a queue and get exactly what the queue said it would give you, then you have no business complaining it didn't give you enough afterwards when you agreed to it. to agree to it and then bail out when it's not a "job" you want is not fair to the other "workers" who are now a man down.
Star Trek Online volunteer Community Moderator
1. You don't argue with moderators. It's a situation where you simply force them to impose the sole authority that they have in their life over something. This does not apply here, it is a general advice. When the moderator (regardless of how mentally dislexic he/she/it may seem) starts to take sides or behave in an inappropriate manner, remember important pointers:
A. He/She/It is not an employee of the company. It is unpaid work and the effort should be appreciated. The company's views are not represented by the mods.
B. If you feel like you are the victim of injustice, make screen shots and report him further, instead of arguing. This way you can ensure that you've done things properly.
C. If you'd be in his/her/its spot, you'd probably be at a discomfort as well.
D. Mods are also people. They can also be dismissed from their positions of strength and imagined authority. The customer is always right. The volunteer is not. Understand this formula and then you'll understand why some mods hold a grudge in the back of their heads. Not all of them, and props to the ones who don't.
2. Some anti-troll measurements may penalize legitimate underperforming users (which is double-dipping unjust). Penalties are something to be handled carefully as a feature.
3. If we have a friendly society, the number of trolls will be so small that the ones remaining will be able to finish the event easily. With this attitude, you're helping the troll and sabotaging yourself and your teammates.
4. NoP Channel is a place of strange. I got kicked/banned some time ago when I received a free TR-116b from a guy and I stated that I want to offer him 500.000 ec back for his effort. They said it was "trade". I don't wanna point out other strange happenings, but it's a place of strange.
Nice thing is that the more you highlight something that is nothing more than an exploit that ruins the game for others the sooner it will get shut down. If that's your intent, I thank you.