What about the other viewpoint? Suppose I had a RL emergency? Am I supposed to complete Assault on Terok Nor first? To avoid inconveniencing you and then afterwards take myself/kid/dog to the hospital?
What about those of us with a TRIBBLE internet connection? Not everyone who plays STO can afford the best of everything. So now we're going to publicly berate some poor kid in public housing whose parents are on government assistance? Perhaps we should leave STO to the idle rich which the rest of us go back to the fields like good little peons.
As to Darkblade's suggestion: Ban me from STO for five hours for something like this and you'll not worry about having to do so a second time. I'll be long gone. Along with your Moderator position here. No game no forums. Appears to me you've let what imaginary power you think you have go straight to your head.
There is a reason I seldom come here any more. Thank you for giving yet another reminder of why.
A six year old boy and his starship. Living the dream.
Darkblade didn't say ban anyone from STO. He said leaver penalty, which is just a lockout from TFOs. While I think 5 hours is a bit extreme, I'd definitely get behind a 2 hour account-wide leaver penalty. And yeah, I'd be ok with it if I got DC'd and got hit with it, too.
Star Trek Online Volunteer Community Moderator and Resident She-Wolf
Community Moderators are Unpaid Volunteers and NOT Employees of Gearbox/Cryptic
Views and Opinions May Not Reflect the Views and Opinions of Gearbox/Cryptic
What about the other viewpoint? Suppose I had a RL emergency? Am I supposed to complete Assault on Terok Nor first? To avoid inconveniencing you and then afterwards take myself/kid/dog to the hospital?
What about those of us with a TRIBBLE internet connection? Not everyone who plays STO can afford the best of everything. So now we're going to publicly berate some poor kid in public housing whose parents are on government assistance? Perhaps we should leave STO to the idle rich which the rest of us go back to the fields like good little peons.
As to Darkblade's suggestion: Ban me from STO for five hours for something like this and you'll not worry about having to do so a second time. I'll be long gone. Along with your Moderator position here. No game no forums. Appears to me you've let what imaginary power you think you have go straight to your head.
There is a reason I seldom come here any more. Thank you for giving yet another reminder of why.
A couple of things need to be clarified.
First and foremost if you have a RL emergency then handle your business, and I even said this in my first post here. Neither myself or anyone else is suggesting otherwise. If someone is suggesting otherwise they are sorely mistaken.
Secondly, I never said the word ban anywhere in that post. What I did say however was leaver penalty, which is NOT the same thing as an outright ban. A leaver/afk penalty simply means one is unable to join the TFO queues for a time, but otherwise are still able to do anything else in game.
In regards to your example of subpar or otherwise bad internet connection, the system already makes for allowances for just such a thing. If you are randomly disconnected for whatever reason, you are given a window of time in which you can reconnect to the game and get put back into the map. If you don't make it back in time, only then does the game consider awarding a leaver penalty. Even then you still might not get a penalty.
As for the insults directed towards me, I will not dignify them with a response. With all of this said there's a few things you need to understand.
As it sits right now if someone gets a queue they don't like, all they had to do was as another user suggested, swap toons and it avoids the penalty. This is not even remotely close to someone leaving due to Real Life reasons or temporarily losing their internet connection. Someone who leaves due to RL reasons or temporarily losing internet is leaving due to no fault of their own. Someone who toon swaps is actively and intentionally swapping toons specifically for the sole purpose of avoiding playing a queue they signed up for. Thus in the process they intentionally foul it up for the other 4 people in the team and all but guarantee they will be a man down or worse, fail objectives in the queue, or fail the queue itself. Thus the one you mentioned is something that occurs through no fault of the end user. The one we were discussing prior occurs only as a result of the end user, thus the difference. If you leave due to RL issue or internet takes a spaz, that's perfectly understandable. If someone leaves simply because they don't want to play the random queue the system gives them, that means they lied to the other people in that TFO and lied to the system since they had no real intentions of playing that queue.
In a situation like that I absolutely believe folks deserve some kind of account wide leaver penalty. Far as to how long it should be we can debate that point. Unless you're leaving due to a RL issue or your internet took a spaz, I don't see what's bad about expecting people to play the queue or eat the penalty because their antics effect other people beyond themselves. I also see nothing wrong with expecting folks to pull their weight either but that's another debate entirely.
Otherwise I stand by my previous statements.
"Someone once told me that time was a predator that stalked us all our lives. I rather believe that time is a companion who goes with us on the journey and reminds us to cherish every moment, because it will never come again." - Jean Luc Picard in Star Trek Generations
Ideally the penalty would be progressive. Start with that modest 30 min they dish out now (except account-wide, so it's not trivial to circumvent). If leave again in 24h, it gets longer each time. Players who quit many times in a row and jump right back in are obviously not dealing with any "emergency."
Another thing is quitting randoms could give a much longer time-out for the randoms specifically, under the premise that players who want to pick and choose what to play should be queuing for what they want to play and not try to exploit the randoms. So they could give many hours cooldown for the random queue, but still let them join regular queues after the shorter global leaver penalty.
So... punish people who don't "measure up" to a percieved standard like some of the elitists in the DPS Community who give said community a bad name?
Also sounds like "reward DPS mentality and slap anyone who doesn't follow DE WEY OF DEEPS with punishment".
Not everyone can reach high DPS numbers, and its not because they don't want to. Its because of playstyle and not wanting to min/max cookie cutter builds. Calling for punishing people over their builds will not encourage players to get better, it will encourage Elitists to ramp up their discrimination against people who don't "measure up" to their standards.
And let me ask this... HOW would one of those players who "knows that the team is gonna F up" knows that before the mission even starts? You don't know what gear they're running. You don't know what damage type they're using. All you know is the ship. So are we gonna start discriminating against ships now too? "Oh you're flying this ship so YOU SUCK! I'm out." Is that how we're gonna treat the playerbase now?
I think I'm going to start here. I would love to see the tfo's go towards a "play smarter not harder" approach. Sci toon cant put out a lot of damage in an ISA? who cares if you have a grav well or 2 that can keep those spheres locked into place, or enough heals that the high dps guy literally cant die. Don't get me wrong, I'll push any player to the 10k mark and there's 2 reasons for that: its easy enough to obtain and itll make their solo play life easier (story mission). after that it's a matter of tweaking the build to suit their play style.
Unfortunately I'm a rare one. The developed mentality of the game is "the faster it dies the better".
As to the leaving: it's not the bonus objectives for a lot of people, its not even time, its a combination of the time the mission will take Vs. the overall reward for a run of any type. I'll use Herald Sphere as an example here because it's one I've skipped out of before, and likely would again. Reason is simple: I've done it before, and I can do it again, right now, BUT its a headache. A BIG headache, and in the end for the time involved, the headache it actually is, and the time it takes the rewards in the end that are earned for even a PERFECT run are so not worth it.
revamp rewards for the more annoying tfo's, and people are more likely to stay for a chance at them.
For my own part I run into 1 of three things that will knock me out of a TFO.
A, Getting stuck in a manner in which the stuck command will not fix. This has happened on ground and in space, though it's pretty rare. (Happened yesterday with Tholian Captain Nukara Shoot-Em-Go-Zap Endeavor.)
2, The occasional patented Windows Blue Screen of Death. Even when fully updated.
D, My favorite three red words that appear during game play, "Server Not Responding." Some days it happens with such frequency that if I were to come to the forum type in "Server Not Responding" each time the appear I'd get caught in a spam filter.
I don't know if the application of a two-hour penalty is such a good idea with the foundry going the way of the exploration clusters. Then again perhaps the resources previously applied to foundry upkeep can be applied to server upgrades rather than server maintenance.
When you boil down everything even players that don't do 10k a second I have seen do better than the player that died in 30 seconds due to an improper thought and mentality towards ship builds that forces other player to try even harder for less and less and less and less reward as the secondary's drop due to that fact. It does boil down to input and effort vs reward and pay back why I leave so many of theme is why out in more effort than anyone else for a bad reward as there little input grants theme major rewards for not even trying at all.
hence the "play smarter not harder". a lot of uber DPSers are glass cannons. they literally have to kill whatever before it can shoot back. Before I was doing a lot of damage I built my ships around being useful for the overall mission. Grav well, hull heals, team damage buffs, etc. It took me a bit to get used to how to properly fly my ship. Now, I still have a "more than just dps" build with some survivability built in while still pulling off 30k-50k depending on a few factors. And more importantly im not a glass cannon (so long as I can keep EVERYTHING from firing at me)
9/10 disconnects have nothing to do with Cryptic's servers. It's on the user end, that is, everything outside of Cryptic's area of responsibility: your computer, your ISP, some connection along the way, etc. And Cryptic invests in their servers all the time with maintenance, upgrades, etc. Again, most of the time, connection issues are outside of their control. I can't tell you how many threads I've seen in the forum of people asking about problems they're having connecting or getting DC'd, while I'm actively playing and so are others. Stuff like that is definitely not on Cryptic.
The other comment about leaving because other players are performing poorly? Well, that's on you for leaving. And yes, if you leave you deserve a leaver penalty. Even if real life calls, yes, you deserve a leaver penalty. Your teammates didn't sign up for someone to bail on them regardless of the issues on someone else's end. Everyone goes in expecting that everyone should be participating til the end. If you don't think that you can, then you shouldn't queue up til you know that you can. And if something unexpected arises mid-battle, then you should expect a leaver penalty if you logout.
As for getting DC'd, I don't know that the game can tell the difference between someone who quits and someone who gets involuntarily disconnected. Again, though, I'm all for it, if the penalty can discourage actual leavers, trolls, and AFKers.
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rattler2Member, Star Trek Online ModeratorPosts: 58,681Community Moderator
If I have to bail for RL reasons, I at least have the courtesy of letting my team know why I have to bail on them. I'll take the leaver penalty, because I did leave. But at least my team will know why.
I can't take it anymore! Could everyone just chill out for two seconds before something CRAZY happens again?!
The nut who actually ground out many packs. The resident forum voice of reason (I HAZ FORUM REP! YAY!)
normal text = me speaking as fellow formite colored text = mod mode
Don't get me wrong it isn't perfect but at least it is more targeting then general punish everyone even the ones trying, will it increase the discrimination yes it will but also enforcing the rules on that will help deal with it and or remove it trust me I know of it see a lot in the game discrimination wise.
Increasing the Discrimination is not gonna help anyone. It will make people even LESS likely to actually ask for help than they are now.
Also I was the one in the Miranda and I did it to prove a point to a player that had the DPS is everything view when I brought a Miranda Starter ship and lasted longer and did better than he did he or she got more pissed at that fact then why I did in the first place.
The reason you survived is because you weren't drawing enough aggro off the DPSer to even attract the attention of the enemy. I once accidentially took my T2 Connie into an Infected Run with my fleetmates. The Borg NEVER even looked at me because I was not doing enough damage to get their attention. I literally went through that entire run without even getting shot at. You can do great with lower tier ships equipped with high tier gear. Its been proven by people who have actually done low tier Infected runs in the past. Hell... I think there was once talk of a SHUTTLE run at one point when it was still possible. Because people wanted a challenge.
Addressing more mission pan out secondary objective lay out and such makes a difference too but you have to address why they are leaving I have left many a TFO's myself not right away I give the team a chance if they mess up a Secondary or keep being dead longer than they live I just leave and wait the 30 minutes not worth my time putting in more work for a player that cant play right do to not address injuries that effect the whole team.
I don't bail if the optionals fail. Yea I get a little frustrated, but I see it through to the end because I signed up for that STF. Unless it is physically impossible to continue, such as other people bailing out or it is bugged and you literally cannot continue... I stick it out. Hell... if I start getting badmouthed by someone... I stick around and fight while they get blasted for typing out insults at us for being "insert prefered insult here" and not being as awesome as Mr. Insult, who most of the time is actually not helping the team anyways.
I'm not in it ONLY for top reward. I'm in it to get something done. And sometimes... Coordination can make up for lack of individual output.
Do some people need to learn more? Yes.
Do they deserve to be punished? No.
Its knowing WHO to punish and who not to punish that is the problem here. You are correct. Your idea is unpopular. All it will do is foster an elitist attitude against people who aren't as well off gear wise. It will basically impose a "gear score" as a requirement, which can also adversly affect players with alts that aren't top tier. We're talking major investments just to meet a "MINIMUM" requirement.
Will it improve the STF experience? Probably through attrition. Only the veterans who have the gear will want to run them. All the new people? Nope. They won't want to be abused because they aren't "up to snuff" when they're TRYING to get up there in the first place.
Exactly THIS! No one has a "right" to get maximum rewards out of every TFO, just because they put in more planning, high-end gear, buffs, whatever. If you want to have max rewards every time, do it with your DPS'er fanboys and leave the public alone. The TFO's are completed by TEAMS; this implies that not every one is in the same gear set, traits, etc., every time. How often do you revive a teammate in a ground mission, even if they haven't pressed the "HELP" button? If you're only out for your own rewards, my guess is ZERO.
There is another class of Troll, who will have enough DPS to solo an unpopular TFO, wait for the Random system to populate it for him/her, then kill everything in sight, and leave the rest of the "team" with an AFK penalty, even when we're firing on targets the whole time. This is the primary reason that I will never play another random TFO, EVER...
Expendables Fleet: Andrew - Bajoran Fed Engineer Ken'taura - Rom/Fed Scientist Gwyllim - Human Fed Delta Tac Savik - Vulcan Fed Temporal Sci Dahar Masters Fleet: Alphal'Fa - Alien KDF Engineer Qun'pau - Rom/KDF Engineer D'nesh - Orion KDF Scientist Ghen'khan - Liberated KDF Tac Welcome to StarBug Online - to boldly Bug where no bug has been before!
STO player since November 2013
As to the leaving: it's not the bonus objectives for a lot of people, its not even time, its a combination of the time the mission will take Vs. the overall reward for a run of any type. I'll use Herald Sphere as an example here because it's one I've skipped out of before, and likely would again. Reason is simple: I've done it before, and I can do it again, right now, BUT its a headache. A BIG headache, and in the end for the time involved, the headache it actually is, and the time it takes the rewards in the end that are earned for even a PERFECT run are so not worth it.
You skip out on me because you just don't feel like completing the queue and I'm not going to have anything nice to say about it: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RrIREFgYPyk
I've 3-manned Cure ground and Khitomer Stasis because of people who just don't care about whether they inconvenience others. I have NO sympathy for whether you feel like it's a waste of your time.
You skip out on me because you just don't feel like completing the queue and I'm not going to have anything nice to say about it:
I've 3-manned Cure ground and Khitomer Stasis because of people who just don't care about whether they inconvenience others. I have NO sympathy for whether you feel like it's a waste of your time.[/quote]
cure ground is worth it. khitomer, I haven't done in n a while, but still worth it. hive is worth it. herald sphere is so not worth it.
You skip out on me because you just don't feel like completing the queue and I'm not going to have anything nice to say about it:
I've 3-manned Cure ground and Khitomer Stasis because of people who just don't care about whether they inconvenience others. I have NO sympathy for whether you feel like it's a waste of your time.
cure ground is worth it. khitomer, I haven't done in n a while, but still worth it. hive is worth it. herald sphere is so not worth it.
don't ask me why the quote messed up
It happens I have had quotes mess up on me im not the original but do understand it though
'But to be logical is not to be right', and 'nothing' on God's earth could ever 'make it' right!'
Judge Dan Haywood
'As l speak now, the words are forming in my head.
l don't know.
l really don't know what l'm about to say, except l have a feeling about it.
That l must repeat the words that come without my knowledge.'
The perennial problem is this: The more the troll annoys (and/or torments) someone, the more the troll enjoys it.
Most of these people are not traditional trolls. The griefing is a side effect. They want rewards for no work. So they get N toons 'running' RTFOs at the same time and just cycle back to them when whatever timer they set says the run is done. And the sad part is these players freely admit in chat how they game the system for maximum rewards w/o doing anything. This method has even been named after a particular STO player who does this a lot.
I like the account wide leave penalty thing for 1 to x hours.
Now we've all been stuck in a broken queue (Swarm, for example) where you have no choice but to leave and getting an account wide leaver penalty would really suck. But I'd grudgingly take that, if it meant these multi-afkers got shut down.
Best thing would be if Cryptic could get logged out toons to leave a RTFO after 2-3 mins so when they do log back in, they are back in sector space or whatever. A 2-3 min window would let people who's client crashed a bit of an opportuntiy to reboot and log back into the game and still be in the TFO. (I've done that a few times where entering a TFO makes my game client freeze up and I quickly reboot/log back in and can then participate.)
Comments
What about those of us with a TRIBBLE internet connection? Not everyone who plays STO can afford the best of everything. So now we're going to publicly berate some poor kid in public housing whose parents are on government assistance? Perhaps we should leave STO to the idle rich which the rest of us go back to the fields like good little peons.
As to Darkblade's suggestion: Ban me from STO for five hours for something like this and you'll not worry about having to do so a second time. I'll be long gone. Along with your Moderator position here. No game no forums. Appears to me you've let what imaginary power you think you have go straight to your head.
There is a reason I seldom come here any more. Thank you for giving yet another reminder of why.
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A couple of things need to be clarified.
First and foremost if you have a RL emergency then handle your business, and I even said this in my first post here. Neither myself or anyone else is suggesting otherwise. If someone is suggesting otherwise they are sorely mistaken.
Secondly, I never said the word ban anywhere in that post. What I did say however was leaver penalty, which is NOT the same thing as an outright ban. A leaver/afk penalty simply means one is unable to join the TFO queues for a time, but otherwise are still able to do anything else in game.
In regards to your example of subpar or otherwise bad internet connection, the system already makes for allowances for just such a thing. If you are randomly disconnected for whatever reason, you are given a window of time in which you can reconnect to the game and get put back into the map. If you don't make it back in time, only then does the game consider awarding a leaver penalty. Even then you still might not get a penalty.
As for the insults directed towards me, I will not dignify them with a response. With all of this said there's a few things you need to understand.
As it sits right now if someone gets a queue they don't like, all they had to do was as another user suggested, swap toons and it avoids the penalty. This is not even remotely close to someone leaving due to Real Life reasons or temporarily losing their internet connection. Someone who leaves due to RL reasons or temporarily losing internet is leaving due to no fault of their own. Someone who toon swaps is actively and intentionally swapping toons specifically for the sole purpose of avoiding playing a queue they signed up for. Thus in the process they intentionally foul it up for the other 4 people in the team and all but guarantee they will be a man down or worse, fail objectives in the queue, or fail the queue itself. Thus the one you mentioned is something that occurs through no fault of the end user. The one we were discussing prior occurs only as a result of the end user, thus the difference. If you leave due to RL issue or internet takes a spaz, that's perfectly understandable. If someone leaves simply because they don't want to play the random queue the system gives them, that means they lied to the other people in that TFO and lied to the system since they had no real intentions of playing that queue.
In a situation like that I absolutely believe folks deserve some kind of account wide leaver penalty. Far as to how long it should be we can debate that point. Unless you're leaving due to a RL issue or your internet took a spaz, I don't see what's bad about expecting people to play the queue or eat the penalty because their antics effect other people beyond themselves. I also see nothing wrong with expecting folks to pull their weight either but that's another debate entirely.
Otherwise I stand by my previous statements.
Star Trek Online volunteer Community Moderator
Another thing is quitting randoms could give a much longer time-out for the randoms specifically, under the premise that players who want to pick and choose what to play should be queuing for what they want to play and not try to exploit the randoms. So they could give many hours cooldown for the random queue, but still let them join regular queues after the shorter global leaver penalty.
I think I'm going to start here. I would love to see the tfo's go towards a "play smarter not harder" approach. Sci toon cant put out a lot of damage in an ISA? who cares if you have a grav well or 2 that can keep those spheres locked into place, or enough heals that the high dps guy literally cant die. Don't get me wrong, I'll push any player to the 10k mark and there's 2 reasons for that: its easy enough to obtain and itll make their solo play life easier (story mission). after that it's a matter of tweaking the build to suit their play style.
Unfortunately I'm a rare one. The developed mentality of the game is "the faster it dies the better".
As to the leaving: it's not the bonus objectives for a lot of people, its not even time, its a combination of the time the mission will take Vs. the overall reward for a run of any type. I'll use Herald Sphere as an example here because it's one I've skipped out of before, and likely would again. Reason is simple: I've done it before, and I can do it again, right now, BUT its a headache. A BIG headache, and in the end for the time involved, the headache it actually is, and the time it takes the rewards in the end that are earned for even a PERFECT run are so not worth it.
revamp rewards for the more annoying tfo's, and people are more likely to stay for a chance at them.
A, Getting stuck in a manner in which the stuck command will not fix. This has happened on ground and in space, though it's pretty rare. (Happened yesterday with Tholian Captain Nukara Shoot-Em-Go-Zap Endeavor.)
2, The occasional patented Windows Blue Screen of Death. Even when fully updated.
D, My favorite three red words that appear during game play, "Server Not Responding." Some days it happens with such frequency that if I were to come to the forum type in "Server Not Responding" each time the appear I'd get caught in a spam filter.
I don't know if the application of a two-hour penalty is such a good idea with the foundry going the way of the exploration clusters. Then again perhaps the resources previously applied to foundry upkeep can be applied to server upgrades rather than server maintenance.
hence the "play smarter not harder". a lot of uber DPSers are glass cannons. they literally have to kill whatever before it can shoot back. Before I was doing a lot of damage I built my ships around being useful for the overall mission. Grav well, hull heals, team damage buffs, etc. It took me a bit to get used to how to properly fly my ship. Now, I still have a "more than just dps" build with some survivability built in while still pulling off 30k-50k depending on a few factors. And more importantly im not a glass cannon (so long as I can keep EVERYTHING from firing at me)
The other comment about leaving because other players are performing poorly? Well, that's on you for leaving. And yes, if you leave you deserve a leaver penalty. Even if real life calls, yes, you deserve a leaver penalty. Your teammates didn't sign up for someone to bail on them regardless of the issues on someone else's end. Everyone goes in expecting that everyone should be participating til the end. If you don't think that you can, then you shouldn't queue up til you know that you can. And if something unexpected arises mid-battle, then you should expect a leaver penalty if you logout.
As for getting DC'd, I don't know that the game can tell the difference between someone who quits and someone who gets involuntarily disconnected. Again, though, I'm all for it, if the penalty can discourage actual leavers, trolls, and AFKers.
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Exactly THIS! No one has a "right" to get maximum rewards out of every TFO, just because they put in more planning, high-end gear, buffs, whatever. If you want to have max rewards every time, do it with your DPS'er fanboys and leave the public alone. The TFO's are completed by TEAMS; this implies that not every one is in the same gear set, traits, etc., every time. How often do you revive a teammate in a ground mission, even if they haven't pressed the "HELP" button? If you're only out for your own rewards, my guess is ZERO.
There is another class of Troll, who will have enough DPS to solo an unpopular TFO, wait for the Random system to populate it for him/her, then kill everything in sight, and leave the rest of the "team" with an AFK penalty, even when we're firing on targets the whole time. This is the primary reason that I will never play another random TFO, EVER...
Savik - Vulcan Fed Temporal Sci
Dahar Masters Fleet: Alphal'Fa - Alien KDF Engineer Qun'pau - Rom/KDF Engineer D'nesh - Orion KDF Scientist Ghen'khan - Liberated KDF Tac
Welcome to StarBug Online - to boldly Bug where no bug has been before!
STO player since November 2013
I don't consider them massive enough to spend time on.
But I will admit that I'm sitting on the ship and gear that I want and have no need of bonus rewards- even if they were 'massive'.
I've 3-manned Cure ground and Khitomer Stasis because of people who just don't care about whether they inconvenience others. I have NO sympathy for whether you feel like it's a waste of your time.
My character Tsin'xing
I've 3-manned Cure ground and Khitomer Stasis because of people who just don't care about whether they inconvenience others. I have NO sympathy for whether you feel like it's a waste of your time.[/quote]
cure ground is worth it. khitomer, I haven't done in n a while, but still worth it. hive is worth it. herald sphere is so not worth it.
don't ask me why the quote messed up
My character Tsin'xing
l don't know.
l really don't know what l'm about to say, except l have a feeling about it.
That l must repeat the words that come without my knowledge.'
Most of these people are not traditional trolls. The griefing is a side effect. They want rewards for no work. So they get N toons 'running' RTFOs at the same time and just cycle back to them when whatever timer they set says the run is done. And the sad part is these players freely admit in chat how they game the system for maximum rewards w/o doing anything. This method has even been named after a particular STO player who does this a lot.
I like the account wide leave penalty thing for 1 to x hours.
Now we've all been stuck in a broken queue (Swarm, for example) where you have no choice but to leave and getting an account wide leaver penalty would really suck. But I'd grudgingly take that, if it meant these multi-afkers got shut down.
Best thing would be if Cryptic could get logged out toons to leave a RTFO after 2-3 mins so when they do log back in, they are back in sector space or whatever. A 2-3 min window would let people who's client crashed a bit of an opportuntiy to reboot and log back into the game and still be in the TFO. (I've done that a few times where entering a TFO makes my game client freeze up and I quickly reboot/log back in and can then participate.)