What Could We Teach Better?

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  • vetteguy904
    vetteguy904 Member Posts: 3,372 Arc User
    brian334 wrote: »
    1) Ship Builds
    2) How Captain Builds integrate with Ship Builds
    3) How BOff Powers are influenced by Captain Skills
    4) How to set up trays and how to use keybinding for optimum Power use
    5) How to create synergy between ships, (healboats, sci ships, etc.,) and the value of Team Play

    The huge learning curve issue for me was in converting from trying to play a solo sci-beamer in Episodes to trying to use that sci-beamer in STFs. I was a complete fail. In trying to do everything I was accomplishing nothing. I was a handicap in events, Red Alerts, and PvP.

    Then a player started teaching me. I thought gear was my issue, but with only gear from Episodes I became more effective in mere days. I started a Klingon with a raider and sought advice: now my Hegh-ta is awesome, where before my raiders were awesome only at exploding.

    All of the obstacles can be overcome by learning. I am overjoyed that the developers are looking in to better teaching. Q'apla!

    Here is a great point. I've been here since Beta, and I do not use keybinds (really, too lazy to figure them out) and the synergy between captain'sabilities and boff abilities I have trouble with. I would LOVE a tutorial on THAT
    Spock.jpg

  • vetteguy904
    vetteguy904 Member Posts: 3,372 Arc User
    where2r1 wrote: »
    "Cat 1" and "Cat 2" were terms coined by @virusdancer , a player. He used those terms to put a label on the pattern he saw in the math for damage calculating. When he was being taught by the mathematician/players who enjoy breaking that stuff down and used to frequent the game, and our forums. This was years ago... those terms stuck. With the players.

    That is why the Devs don't use those terms.

    You won't see them inside the game, in a tutorial BECAUSE it may not even be correct.
    Yes, Devs MAY use similar math (maybe...because they don't reveal their calculations) but they call it something totally different.

    It is my understanding that players owe a lot in our understanding the math underlying this game TO the best guesses and hard work done by devoted mathematicians who enjoy this game.

    IIRC cat 1 are the preferred boosts.. and rarely appear in new gear. a list of what are cat 1 vs cat 2 would be helpful. I posted a thread a long time ago comparing energy types with the consoles i had. in aprticular i was trying to boost tet, since i had just claimed the Recluse, and i wanted to use tet. I had the nukara set, the one from i think butterfly, and a couple other things. so here I am, thinking cool my beam array is 200, this will boost 35% x 3 plus the 10% for this and the 15% for that and another 15% for the next doohickie. so I am thinking that I should have a beam array doing something on the order of 597. but nooooo since it is all cat 2, the math doesn't work that way. I'm not a math geek, and i did not have the desire to try to figure out why after all the add on,s my array was only at, say 405 (is it that all the percentages are added together and applyed to the base?) don't know don't really care. i discovred that by loseing X console, i only go from 405 to 398, and i cqan add something that has an interesting clicky, or helps my survivability now if i had a list of which 10% thingie actually added MORE to the equation, then i would know what to grab
    Spock.jpg

  • tunebreaker
    tunebreaker Member Posts: 1,222 Arc User
    where2r1 wrote: »
    "Cat 1" and "Cat 2" were terms coined by @virusdancer , a player. He used those terms to put a label on the pattern he saw in the math for damage calculating. When he was being taught by the mathematician/players who enjoy breaking that stuff down and used to frequent the game, and our forums. This was years ago... those terms stuck. With the players.

    That is why the Devs don't use those terms.

    You won't see them inside the game, in a tutorial BECAUSE it may not even be correct.
    Yes, Devs MAY use similar math (maybe...because they don't reveal their calculations) but they call it something totally different.

    It is my understanding that players owe a lot in our understanding the math underlying this game TO the best guesses and hard work done by devoted mathematicians who enjoy this game.

    IIRC cat 1 are the preferred boosts.. and rarely appear in new gear. a list of what are cat 1 vs cat 2 would be helpful. I posted a thread a long time ago comparing energy types with the consoles i had. in aprticular i was trying to boost tet, since i had just claimed the Recluse, and i wanted to use tet. I had the nukara set, the one from i think butterfly, and a couple other things. so here I am, thinking cool my beam array is 200, this will boost 35% x 3 plus the 10% for this and the 15% for that and another 15% for the next doohickie. so I am thinking that I should have a beam array doing something on the order of 597. but nooooo since it is all cat 2, the math doesn't work that way. I'm not a math geek, and i did not have the desire to try to figure out why after all the add on,s my array was only at, say 405 (is it that all the percentages are added together and applyed to the base?) don't know don't really care. i discovred that by loseing X console, i only go from 405 to 398, and i cqan add something that has an interesting clicky, or helps my survivability now if i had a list of which 10% thingie actually added MORE to the equation, then i would know what to grab

    Cat1 is already saturated by having mark (up to 285% for mk XV) and modifiers on your weapon (2.5% per non-dmg modifier). All of the tactical consoles are also cat1, so even your midrange build could already have 500% cat1 buffs on weapons before accounting for anything else. Cat2 however, while also becoming more and more common, is still rarer, and high-end builds rarely have more than 175% or so.

    As a rule of thumb, anything that says simply +damage is cat1, and anything that says +bonus damage is cat2. A semi-decent list is here, but it doesn't include everything in game.
    https://www.reddit.com/r/stobuilds/wiki/math/damage_categories
  • lordsteve1
    lordsteve1 Member Posts: 3,492 Arc User
    I always likened it to Cat 1 being within or before the final calculation, and Cat 2 is added after the calculations so it’ll always be a bigger boost.

    It’s not a perfect explanation and I’m sure the maths-wizards are rolling their eyes at it but for the average player it explains it quite well I think.

    Also like Tune said, BONUS in a tooltip tends to mean it’s a Cat 2, end of calculation boost.
    SulMatuul.png
  • alcaatraz
    alcaatraz Member Posts: 112 Arc User
    edited September 2018
    lordsteve1 wrote: »
    I always likened it to Cat 1 being within or before the final calculation, and Cat 2 is added after the calculations so it’ll always be a bigger boost.

    Its more like how you would convert a day into seconds. We Have 24 hours in a day, with 60 Min in an hour, and 60s in a min, which is 24x60x60, we can all do this on a calculator. Its a bunch of numbers we just multiply together.

    The phrase I heard to easily describe the damage categories was from Vel, stating "Cumulative Inside Multiply Outside". What we do is just multiply the two by each other after you add the respective bonuses up.

    --

    As Gruber says we get 285% cat1 from a weapon at mk XV, we also get several dozen other sources of cat1. We add these all up and we have +500% (its the number used before). If we add up all out Cat2 and get +175%, then the operation we do is just
    (100%+500%)x(100%+175%)

    = (1+5)x(1+1.75)
    = (6)x(2.75)
    = 16.5

    We get a Damage modifier for how much the base damage is (base for a beam array is 200 at 100 power, which would result in a tooltip damage value of 3300 for the numbers above: 200x6x2.75).

    --

    tl;dr:
    1. Add Up all like damage increases
    2. Multiply them together

    --

    Edit: The reason Cat2 buffs gain a higher increase is because there is less of them, not because their functionally differant. Take the 500% we have above, if we add in another 5% we move our 6x to a 6.05, which isnt as much of an increase to the 6 value as if we added 5% to the 175 which would move our 2.75 to 2.8:
    6.05/6 = 1.0083333
    2.8/2.75 = 1.0181818

    --- @alcaatraz || I make tanks and do crazy maths stuffs ---
    "I am the master of my fate: I am the captain of my soul."
  • lordsteve1
    lordsteve1 Member Posts: 3,492 Arc User
    Ah thank you @alcaatraz !

    My shoddy explanation was admittedly not perfect and your's blew it out of the water with all that maths-fu. :D
    SulMatuul.png
  • alcaatraz
    alcaatraz Member Posts: 112 Arc User
    lordsteve1 wrote: »
    all that maths-fu. :D

    Glad to help! I know the game can be of the confuse for anything math related :smiley:
    --- @alcaatraz || I make tanks and do crazy maths stuffs ---
    "I am the master of my fate: I am the captain of my soul."
  • trennan
    trennan Member Posts: 2,839 Arc User

    reafis wrote: »
    Ok, how about the game has the sort of wiki and guides for certain things built into the ship itself.

    Its never going to build for you but give unbiased advice for what you can do and what is available. You could even add it into the current ship interior/bridge to give them more purpose. Or if you wanted to have a build tutorial add it in at utopia planitia or the rom/kling equivalent.

    What you could also have it have the system give more general advice (for example you want more phaser damage) you go onto your bridge and ask your tactical officer (or other relevant officer). Or ask your engineer for advice on shield power etc.

    Prehaps you could even view you ships base DPS in the bridge view (and maybe have a simulation mode) , so that say you added a phaser console and it shows your new dps vs the old one (STO sort of does this when you equip but it can be quite daunting)

    Making your Bridge Officers your access to assistance would really help the immersion of STO.

    You could also add bridge officer feedback (which you could turn on or off) to better explain the effects of decisions. So for example when you go to full impulse your engineer would pop up a bit of text stating that the weapons etc will be diverting power to the engines and that weapons etc will be affected. This could work similar to the current voice over for shields down etc.

    Exactly! I had pointed out a variation of this in a previous post, I called it the "Archive." A console, a PADD, or even just a button on the UI you could click to access the basic information.

    As far as the part of how it affects your ship and captain. I'd put this in a graph style in the ship stats. Sort of like:

    7BdGrPx.png

    This way, with the basic information available, and this style of graph that would adjust to the various setups, one could see how equipment would affect you ship and captain. This would be beneficial to both new and old players.

    The popups saying, "Aye, Captain. Going to full Impulse, shields and weapons offline while active." is a good idea as well. Being able to turn it on and off is a golden idea. Just like being able to turn off all the visual spam is a great idea as well.
    Mm5NeXy.gif
  • annemarie30
    annemarie30 Member Posts: 2,224 Arc User
    here is something to add to the list.. came to me in the gamma mission whining thread.. new players need to learn how to use the exchange, and a better explination of gear mark and quality, and how to upgrade.
    awkward.jpg
    We Want Vic Fontaine
  • annemarie30
    annemarie30 Member Posts: 2,224 Arc User
    trennan wrote: »
    reafis wrote: »
    Ok, how about the game has the sort of wiki and guides for certain things built into the ship itself.

    Its never going to build for you but give unbiased advice for what you can do and what is available. You could even add it into the current ship interior/bridge to give them more purpose. Or if you wanted to have a build tutorial add it in at utopia planitia or the rom/kling equivalent.

    What you could also have it have the system give more general advice (for example you want more phaser damage) you go onto your bridge and ask your tactical officer (or other relevant officer). Or ask your engineer for advice on shield power etc.

    Prehaps you could even view you ships base DPS in the bridge view (and maybe have a simulation mode) , so that say you added a phaser console and it shows your new dps vs the old one (STO sort of does this when you equip but it can be quite daunting)

    Making your Bridge Officers your access to assistance would really help the immersion of STO.

    You could also add bridge officer feedback (which you could turn on or off) to better explain the effects of decisions. So for example when you go to full impulse your engineer would pop up a bit of text stating that the weapons etc will be diverting power to the engines and that weapons etc will be affected. This could work similar to the current voice over for shields down etc.

    Exactly! I had pointed out a variation of this in a previous post, I called it the "Archive." A console, a PADD, or even just a button on the UI you could click to access the basic information.

    As far as the part of how it affects your ship and captain. I'd put this in a graph style in the ship stats. Sort of like:

    7BdGrPx.png

    This way, with the basic information available, and this style of graph that would adjust to the various setups, one could see how equipment would affect you ship and captain. This would be beneficial to both new and old players.

    The popups saying, "Aye, Captain. Going to full Impulse, shields and weapons offline while active." is a good idea as well. Being able to turn it on and off is a golden idea. Just like being able to turn off all the visual spam is a great idea as well.

    what, you don't remember elisa flores telling you that some 40 levels ago??
    awkward.jpg
    We Want Vic Fontaine
  • trennan
    trennan Member Posts: 2,839 Arc User
    trennan wrote: »
    reafis wrote: »
    Ok, how about the game has the sort of wiki and guides for certain things built into the ship itself.

    Its never going to build for you but give unbiased advice for what you can do and what is available. You could even add it into the current ship interior/bridge to give them more purpose. Or if you wanted to have a build tutorial add it in at utopia planitia or the rom/kling equivalent.

    What you could also have it have the system give more general advice (for example you want more phaser damage) you go onto your bridge and ask your tactical officer (or other relevant officer). Or ask your engineer for advice on shield power etc.

    Prehaps you could even view you ships base DPS in the bridge view (and maybe have a simulation mode) , so that say you added a phaser console and it shows your new dps vs the old one (STO sort of does this when you equip but it can be quite daunting)

    Making your Bridge Officers your access to assistance would really help the immersion of STO.

    You could also add bridge officer feedback (which you could turn on or off) to better explain the effects of decisions. So for example when you go to full impulse your engineer would pop up a bit of text stating that the weapons etc will be diverting power to the engines and that weapons etc will be affected. This could work similar to the current voice over for shields down etc.

    Exactly! I had pointed out a variation of this in a previous post, I called it the "Archive." A console, a PADD, or even just a button on the UI you could click to access the basic information.

    As far as the part of how it affects your ship and captain. I'd put this in a graph style in the ship stats. Sort of like:

    7BdGrPx.png

    This way, with the basic information available, and this style of graph that would adjust to the various setups, one could see how equipment would affect you ship and captain. This would be beneficial to both new and old players.

    The popups saying, "Aye, Captain. Going to full Impulse, shields and weapons offline while active." is a good idea as well. Being able to turn it on and off is a golden idea. Just like being able to turn off all the visual spam is a great idea as well.

    what, you don't remember elisa flores telling you that some 40 levels ago??

    You mean 64 levels ago. Way back some time during the tutorial? That I've skipped on every character I could since?
    Mm5NeXy.gif
  • where2r1
    where2r1 Member Posts: 6,054 Arc User
    edited October 2018
    This is more of "a teaching moment" as much as something to look at as far as loot drops for new players.

    My characters leveled up using DOFFing....so this stuff did not effect me as much at the time.

    I was able to do "Dust to Dust" and "A Step Between Stars" on my characters for Anniversary Events. Which means: all my characters have these "sets" before they even reach those missions by following the mission journal.

    Find a way to get these items into players hands at Level 10, again.
    People want to follow the mission journal list not skip. And it is awkward.

    It gives them "something" with boosts and stuff to SEE tooltips on and use. Get an idea what to look for on gear beyond loot drops. Give an opportunity to let Veteran players, pass along the uses for these "set" things. What it means to have "set Bonuses". Etc...

    It is the first step in learning how players do their "builds".

    New players have access to these sets doing what they are already doing.... via the missions.
    They have something to look at....they can ASK questions about.
    "Spend your life doing strange things with weird people." -- UNK

    “Tell me and I forget. Teach me and I remember. Involve me and I learn.” -- Benjamin Franklin
  • jonsills
    jonsills Member Posts: 9,726 Arc User
    trennan wrote: »
    trennan wrote: »
    reafis wrote: »
    Ok, how about the game has the sort of wiki and guides for certain things built into the ship itself.

    Its never going to build for you but give unbiased advice for what you can do and what is available. You could even add it into the current ship interior/bridge to give them more purpose. Or if you wanted to have a build tutorial add it in at utopia planitia or the rom/kling equivalent.

    What you could also have it have the system give more general advice (for example you want more phaser damage) you go onto your bridge and ask your tactical officer (or other relevant officer). Or ask your engineer for advice on shield power etc.

    Prehaps you could even view you ships base DPS in the bridge view (and maybe have a simulation mode) , so that say you added a phaser console and it shows your new dps vs the old one (STO sort of does this when you equip but it can be quite daunting)

    Making your Bridge Officers your access to assistance would really help the immersion of STO.

    You could also add bridge officer feedback (which you could turn on or off) to better explain the effects of decisions. So for example when you go to full impulse your engineer would pop up a bit of text stating that the weapons etc will be diverting power to the engines and that weapons etc will be affected. This could work similar to the current voice over for shields down etc.

    Exactly! I had pointed out a variation of this in a previous post, I called it the "Archive." A console, a PADD, or even just a button on the UI you could click to access the basic information.

    As far as the part of how it affects your ship and captain. I'd put this in a graph style in the ship stats. Sort of like:

    7BdGrPx.png

    This way, with the basic information available, and this style of graph that would adjust to the various setups, one could see how equipment would affect you ship and captain. This would be beneficial to both new and old players.

    The popups saying, "Aye, Captain. Going to full Impulse, shields and weapons offline while active." is a good idea as well. Being able to turn it on and off is a golden idea. Just like being able to turn off all the visual spam is a great idea as well.

    what, you don't remember elisa flores telling you that some 40 levels ago??

    You mean 64 levels ago. Way back some time during the tutorial? That I've skipped on every character I could since?
    If you're skipping the tutorial, then it doesn't matter what they teach better, because you're not showing up to class.

    Lorna-Wing-sig.png
  • mustrumridcully0
    mustrumridcully0 Member Posts: 12,958 Arc User
    jonsills wrote: »
    trennan wrote: »
    trennan wrote: »
    reafis wrote: »
    Ok, how about the game has the sort of wiki and guides for certain things built into the ship itself.

    Its never going to build for you but give unbiased advice for what you can do and what is available. You could even add it into the current ship interior/bridge to give them more purpose. Or if you wanted to have a build tutorial add it in at utopia planitia or the rom/kling equivalent.

    What you could also have it have the system give more general advice (for example you want more phaser damage) you go onto your bridge and ask your tactical officer (or other relevant officer). Or ask your engineer for advice on shield power etc.

    Prehaps you could even view you ships base DPS in the bridge view (and maybe have a simulation mode) , so that say you added a phaser console and it shows your new dps vs the old one (STO sort of does this when you equip but it can be quite daunting)

    Making your Bridge Officers your access to assistance would really help the immersion of STO.

    You could also add bridge officer feedback (which you could turn on or off) to better explain the effects of decisions. So for example when you go to full impulse your engineer would pop up a bit of text stating that the weapons etc will be diverting power to the engines and that weapons etc will be affected. This could work similar to the current voice over for shields down etc.

    Exactly! I had pointed out a variation of this in a previous post, I called it the "Archive." A console, a PADD, or even just a button on the UI you could click to access the basic information.

    As far as the part of how it affects your ship and captain. I'd put this in a graph style in the ship stats. Sort of like:

    7BdGrPx.png

    This way, with the basic information available, and this style of graph that would adjust to the various setups, one could see how equipment would affect you ship and captain. This would be beneficial to both new and old players.

    The popups saying, "Aye, Captain. Going to full Impulse, shields and weapons offline while active." is a good idea as well. Being able to turn it on and off is a golden idea. Just like being able to turn off all the visual spam is a great idea as well.

    what, you don't remember elisa flores telling you that some 40 levels ago??

    You mean 64 levels ago. Way back some time during the tutorial? That I've skipped on every character I could since?
    If you're skipping the tutorial, then it doesn't matter what they teach better, because you're not showing up to class.

    A question is: Is the tutorial really the ideal way to teach people to play the game? It tends to lead to an information overload, especially when the quality of information is quite different. Some people need to learn that AWSD is used to steer your ship, others will assume this as default control for most types of games. And if you make a tutorial that tries to cover all the bases, you will bore some players and overload others, or both.

    The challenge is not just finding things to teach better, but how to teach them better.



    Maybe one approach could be to put tutorials for all kinds of stuff in tiny missions that get offered at certain levels were things get relevant. If we start with the basics , like movement, one could have a "do you want a basic tutorial for movement?" that explains AWSD and throttle, but you can ignore that, and just follow the mission objective: "Fly to Point A, go to full impulse to go to Point B, and then go backwards."
    An Exchange Tutorial mission could involve meeting the "Shady Trader" and he is giving you an item that you're supposed to sell on the Exchange. The optional tutorial information could go into details, like how to search, how to sell.


    Star Trek Online Advancement: You start with lowbie gear, you end with Lobi gear.
  • commanderblack#7812
    commanderblack#7812 Member Posts: 47 Arc User
    rattler2 wrote: »
    nimbull wrote: »
    Maybe have a database people can reference to look up ships and captains like the armory in WoW lets you look up people. That way people can see how other people are doing things and get a better feel for how they should go with their character.

    They kinda tried that with the STO Gateway. Never worked, and was eventually dropped. On top of that, it would be unfeasable now with having 3 platforms with different frameworks to try and draw from.

    https://sto.gamepedia.com/Main_Page
    May the force be with you!!! Qapla!!
  • commanderblack#7812
    commanderblack#7812 Member Posts: 47 Arc User
    coldnapalm wrote: »
    valoreah wrote: »
    Another vote for ship building!!

    This absolutely has to change, it's responsible for the vast majority of player struggles and it badly needs to be fixed. Stop having ships come with a Single Beam, Dual Beam, Torpedo and a cannon in the front.. you're teaching players bad habits. When players see this they think 'that's how I am supposed to do it,' and it gets them in big trouble.
    ...
    The biggest hurdle that new players have to get over is unlearning what the game has incorrectly taught them. Don't mix Beams and Cannons, don't put 2 or 3 Torpedo Launchers fore and aft, and use bridge officer powers that match your weapons.


    In my personal experience, I don't know of anyone who was unable to organically figure out what types of weapons worked best for their style of play, so the "stock" selection of weapons that came with a new ship were never an issue.

    The shear number of people I have helped both on this forum and in the actual game says that there are PLENTY of people who are unable to organically figure things out...and that since quite a large number of them used the stock ship as a template for their builds...yes it is damn well a problem. Considering that even the devs themselves at this point saying it is an issue they wish to tackle shows that what you experienced...assuming it isn't a flat out lie...is not the norm. You can say it's not a problem for you and whatever circle jerk you belong to...but it is a problem...and the devs will spend time on it. Even if it is just info gathering and nothing else. So either help with something useful, or just leave this thread for people who actually give a flying F about the future of this game and wanting new players to have a good experience.
    meygaan wrote: »
    Perhaps start an initiative to reward players who go out of their way to help newbies. There is nothing like first hand training from a game expert. Give them the option to honor the same as you do to report or ignore someone by right clicking on their name and select "honor". Maybe give dilithium, EC, items or something else as a reward.

    Happy gaming :-)

    Yes i agree here is a link that has help my fleet https://sto.gamepedia.com/Main_Page
    May the force be with you!!! Qapla!!
  • commanderblack#7812
    commanderblack#7812 Member Posts: 47 Arc User
    valoreah wrote: »
    DPS isn't for everyone. If they individual players goal is to have fun and enjoy the story content, then DPS doesn't really matter. Chasing DPS is something that will constantly change as well as the game grows and changes are made. What was once an "effective DPS build" in one update may become near useless in another. Would Cryptic have to redo their tutorials again each time?

    The basics of ship building haven’t changed since day one. Using matching energy types, not mixing cannons and beams, using bridge officer powers that work with your build.. these things don’t change. Lack of this knowledge leads to the vast majority of new player struggles.

    This thread was not started for debates, they asked for suggestions, I made mine. I am happy to debate the merits with you someplace else, otherwise I am done with you in this thread. You're just trying to take it off topic.

    I was told the same thing until i prove them wrong.
    May the force be with you!!! Qapla!!
  • commanderblack#7812
    commanderblack#7812 Member Posts: 47 Arc User
    valoreah wrote: »

    So in essence you're saying there are "right and wrong" ways to build a ship, which isn't true.
    No, that's just not true. Again, if someone wants to be weak on purpose and has somehow fun doing so, it's not my place to say they are building their ship wrong.
    But if a player builds their ship in a way that doesn't actually support their intent, they are making a very inefficient build. Some examples:
    Using aux2bat on science power-heavy build.
    Using low weapons power on an energy weapon build.
    Not using any +energy weapon buffs on an energy weapon build.
    Not using any respective weapon enhancements (unless it's very sci-heavy build).
    Not using any heals (especially on tank/healer).
    Not being able to draw aggro on tank.
    Using Feedback Pulse/Reciprocity on a build that does not generate much aggro.

    The list just goes on. There are certain things that work and some that just don't. And if you try to put together a ship that uses powers/equipment that won't simply work together because of obvious game mechanics, you'll end up with an inefficient build. It's as simple as that.
    valoreah wrote: »
    DPS isn't for everyone. If they individual players goal is to have fun and enjoy the story content, then DPS doesn't really matter. Chasing DPS is something that will constantly change as well as the game grows and changes are made. What was once an "effective DPS build" in one update may become near useless in another. Would Cryptic have to redo their tutorials again each time?

    Pretty much everything in game requires you to kill the enemy. You need damage for that. I have heard several pleas from new players how they simply can't beat some story mission. I arrive and try to analyze what the newbie is missing. Most often it's... surprise surprise... lack of sufficient DPS. And why does that player have insufficient damage output? Because of inefficient build discussed in my previous paragraph.

    And no, I don't expect Cryptic to put out their own cookie cutter builds using latest meta that players should follow. But some basic stuff, such as not encouraging to mix beams and cannons, would be very welcome. Can the players succeed mixing them? Absolutely. But is it easier to succeed NOT doing it? Also - absolutely.

    There should be a basic template to show newbies then after they are good they can change it.
    May the force be with you!!! Qapla!!
  • commanderblack#7812
    commanderblack#7812 Member Posts: 47 Arc User
    edited October 2018
    It's not just about skill points the ship type and the weapons power is the one of the most important 200 or higher the specializations plays a big part as well. Seems a lot of players are not aware of that or just don't say it. I have all mine filled out and it make a world of difference.
    May the force be with you!!! Qapla!!
  • antonine3258
    antonine3258 Member Posts: 2,391 Arc User
    A question is: Is the tutorial really the ideal way to teach people to play the game? It tends to lead to an information overload, especially when the quality of information is quite different. Some people need to learn that AWSD is used to steer your ship, others will assume this as default control for most types of games. And if you make a tutorial that tries to cover all the bases, you will bore some players and overload others, or both.

    The challenge is not just finding things to teach better, but how to teach them better.



    Maybe one approach could be to put tutorials for all kinds of stuff in tiny missions that get offered at certain levels were things get relevant. If we start with the basics , like movement, one could have a "do you want a basic tutorial for movement?" that explains AWSD and throttle, but you can ignore that, and just follow the mission objective: "Fly to Point A, go to full impulse to go to Point B, and then go backwards."
    An Exchange Tutorial mission could involve meeting the "Shady Trader" and he is giving you an item that you're supposed to sell on the Exchange. The optional tutorial information could go into details, like how to search, how to sell.

    Searchable tutorials or even an 'Academy map' where you could go for lessons might be helpful.

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  • tyr#1836
    tyr#1836 Member Posts: 5 Arc User
    I've been playing for almost 3 weeks now & everything I've read would be a tremendous aid. But for me only 3 weeks in, even things as simple as the rewards of the phoenix boxes, other than a ship, what is any of it good for? Now remember, I've only been playing 3 weeks, so I'm literally learning as I go.

    But 1 thing I haven't seen posted, & I apologize if someone did, that literally had me to the point of saying this isn't a game for me, because to me it's poorly designed. Any popups, mission, take item, or even the biggest, hints on how to handle new things all seem to pop up at the very moment you tap "F" to accept or take & suddenly your boff pops up at the very moment you hit "F". So I missed an entire section that was suppose to give me hints on how to handle the romulan warbird. It was my 1st encounter w/ a tractor beam. It took me over an hour & coming to the forums & finding other new people having the same problem. There does need to be some type of break between all the popups. 4 or 5 at a time is way overwhelming to a new player that's learning & way to easy to accept or decline something w/out realizing what you just did because of very bad timing. A simple replay button would be awesome, so if you forget some detail or you just hit "F" on an unexpected popup & canceled it, you can simply replay the intro to the mission to get the details.

    That's my 2 gold pressed latinum worth.

  • jonsills
    jonsills Member Posts: 9,726 Arc User
    tyr#1836 wrote: »
    I've been playing for almost 3 weeks now & everything I've read would be a tremendous aid. But for me only 3 weeks in, even things as simple as the rewards of the phoenix boxes, other than a ship, what is any of it good for? Now remember, I've only been playing 3 weeks, so I'm literally learning as I go.

    But 1 thing I haven't seen posted, & I apologize if someone did, that literally had me to the point of saying this isn't a game for me, because to me it's poorly designed. Any popups, mission, take item, or even the biggest, hints on how to handle new things all seem to pop up at the very moment you tap "F" to accept or take & suddenly your boff pops up at the very moment you hit "F". So I missed an entire section that was suppose to give me hints on how to handle the romulan warbird. It was my 1st encounter w/ a tractor beam. It took me over an hour & coming to the forums & finding other new people having the same problem. There does need to be some type of break between all the popups. 4 or 5 at a time is way overwhelming to a new player that's learning & way to easy to accept or decline something w/out realizing what you just did because of very bad timing. A simple replay button would be awesome, so if you forget some detail or you just hit "F" on an unexpected popup & canceled it, you can simply replay the intro to the mission to get the details.

    That's my 2 gold pressed latinum worth.
    Or, if you'd like to be immersive about it, make any tutorial you've gone through (or skipped) available on your library computer console. Gives you another reason to be inside your ship, too!
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  • tyr#1836
    tyr#1836 Member Posts: 5 Arc User
    jonsills wrote: »
    Or, if you'd like to be immersive about it, make any tutorial you've gone through (or skipped) available on your library computer console. Gives you another reason to be inside your ship, too!

    That's a fantastic idea.
  • captaincelestial
    captaincelestial Member Posts: 1,909 Arc User
    I'm assuming the missions you're supposed to get from Ambassador Sugihara is supposed to make up for the number of Marauder missions that are more readily available the KDF.

    New mission types are supposed to become more available as you go up the Diplomacy Duty Officer ranks. It's more like a here's kind of what you have to do, good luck stumbling on the mission!

    Would be great to either give better information of how/where to find these missions that are theoretically in different star systems. Maybe he should act like other mission givers, with waypoints to show where these missions are located.

    Another way to get players on the player ship is allowing the Star Fleet Diplomatic Envoy to also give diplomatic missions (the non-duty officer kinds, such as making first contact, etc.).

    Also, someone in tutorial should point out that players can encounter missions beyond the story arcs, such as the older missions that are still available, and even R&D material collection sites.
  • phoenixc#0738
    phoenixc#0738 Member Posts: 4,195 Arc User
    STO has a ton of systems in the game, and we're looking to revitalize how we teach them to you. What do you think would be the most important part of STO to teach to a new player, that we don't currently show off well?

    I'm talking about the kind of things that you need to know to succeed in the game, but players generally find out by, say, coming here rather than learning organically through gameplay.

    One thing would be the reputation system and set synergy, something that is more important since the RAs are now gone. There is a lot of confusion over which reputation to go for to get things for whatever energy type you use for instance. There is little or nothing about it ingame (just a short thing on the mechanics of using the floater window itself), and going to the web about it leads to a confusing mass of contradictory opinions in places like Reddit. I just ignored it for a while after reaching level 50 the first time because the information was such a mixed up mess and I preferred playing to wading through it all for instance.

    On a related tangent, it would be good to somehow naturally lead people to DSEs, ques, and stuff like that better, maybe by having NPCs mention those big red eyeball things in space could use checking out for example. Also a lot of people have gotten burned by ques in other games so many will not go near them here without prompting and telling them it is different from whatever toxic que experiences they have had before.
  • jonsills
    jonsills Member Posts: 9,726 Arc User
    The AoD tutorial makes a good start, using a graphical representation of the firing arcs of the weapons (since few people really have an intuitive grasp of what "270 degrees" means), and explaining about broadsiding with a cruiser. Hoping that there will be something similar later for the firing arcs of the other weapons.
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  • legendarylycan#5411
    legendarylycan#5411 Member Posts: 36,948 Arc User
    wow...you mean they actually took some ideas from this thread and put them in the tutorial? can someone check to see if hell froze over?​​
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  • tobywitczak
    tobywitczak Member Posts: 207 Arc User
    Yeah they still a lot of work

    When trying to purchase new items from the C-Store, Like say a new AoD Starter Pack on a new Character, well Instead of saying "your character cannot use this item". Leaving people to think they need to claim it on another Character, having a better message like "Your character need to be level 10" or “you need to complete the tutorial to purchase this item”, would be a little well, less Cryptic.
  • nunoespadinha#0711
    nunoespadinha#0711 Member Posts: 124 Arc User
    edited October 2018
    A nice idea i got from the other forums: Maybe a little bit of text under the throttle that reads Warp/Impulse and then the speed would be handy

    That would help new people know if at what kind of speed type they are, which also helps while reading Gear (Cores, Engines, etc) tooltips
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  • dracounguis
    dracounguis Member Posts: 5,363 Arc User
    edited October 2018
    (Trolling comments moderated out. - BMR)
    Post edited by baddmoonrizin on