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  • tunebreakertunebreaker Member Posts: 1,222 Arc User

    It's honestly amazing that some people actually oppose this.

    This is also why so many expert players are avoiding forums. Why bother even trying to help someone if you get chewed out or get lectured how you're doing everything wrong.
  • where2r1where2r1 Member Posts: 6,054 Arc User
    Even with DPS stuff.... they have to know how everything works with everything else. OR they won't know HOW they are making the DPS happen.

    Cryptic tutorials are bad at connecting things TOGETHER. It is about this. Or that. But not how it goes together.
    "Spend your life doing strange things with weird people." -- UNK

    “Tell me and I forget. Teach me and I remember. Involve me and I learn.” -- Benjamin Franklin
  • jonsillsjonsills Member Posts: 10,354 Arc User
    Every time someone suggests that the do a better job teaching people how to build a ship someone assumes that means dictating to people how they have to play.
    Every time there's been a thread where someone asks for advice on how to play, there are a horde of "experts" who want to tell the poor kid how to build their ship. In this very thread, I've seen it stated as fact that you're not "supposed to" mix cannons and beams on the same ship, and apparently torpedoes are right out unless you're building a "torpedo boat".

    USS Time Bandit, a Paladin-class temporal battlecruiser (wearing a Ranger-class skin), mounts two phaser arrays, one quad phaser cannon, and one quantum torpedo launcher forward, with one 360-degree beam array (don't remember which one offhand - all of mine are drops from missions), one phaser array, one quantum torpedo launcher, and one photon mine launcher aft. I've made sure that her consoles support phaser and projectile weapons, along with some of those cool temporal consoles. According to these "experts", I should be lagging behind, unable to "do anything". Well, I'll confess I'd probably suck at PvP - good thing PvP isn't exactly a requirement, huh?

    On the other tentacle, she cruises through the content of the storyline missions nicely (those mines sure came in handy the first time we fought Hur'q, at DS9!). The "secret" there is that she's not a rainbow boat; all of her energy weapons use the same type of energy, so I can buff them all with a single console. That's it. There's no shame in mixing different kinds of weapons aboard a ship. (Rainbow boats can work too - for an example, I present USS Lorna Wing, a Yorktown-class science cruiser - but they're considerably harder to use effectively, and I don't recommend the concept for someone still figuring out the game.)
    Lorna-Wing-sig.png
  • brian334brian334 Member Posts: 2,214 Arc User
    1) Ship Builds
    2) How Captain Builds integrate with Ship Builds
    3) How BOff Powers are influenced by Captain Skills
    4) How to set up trays and how to use keybinding for optimum Power use
    5) How to create synergy between ships, (healboats, sci ships, etc.,) and the value of Team Play

    The huge learning curve issue for me was in converting from trying to play a solo sci-beamer in Episodes to trying to use that sci-beamer in STFs. I was a complete fail. In trying to do everything I was accomplishing nothing. I was a handicap in events, Red Alerts, and PvP.

    Then a player started teaching me. I thought gear was my issue, but with only gear from Episodes I became more effective in mere days. I started a Klingon with a raider and sought advice: now my Hegh-ta is awesome, where before my raiders were awesome only at exploding.

    All of the obstacles can be overcome by learning. I am overjoyed that the developers are looking in to better teaching. Q'apla!
  • seaofsorrowsseaofsorrows Member Posts: 10,918 Arc User
    edited September 2018
    jonsills wrote: »
    Every time someone suggests that the do a better job teaching people how to build a ship someone assumes that means dictating to people how they have to play.
    Every time there's been a thread where someone asks for advice on how to play, there are a horde of "experts" who want to tell the poor kid how to build their ship. In this very thread, I've seen it stated as fact that you're not "supposed to" mix cannons and beams on the same ship, and apparently torpedoes are right out unless you're building a "torpedo boat".

    USS Time Bandit, a Paladin-class temporal battlecruiser (wearing a Ranger-class skin), mounts two phaser arrays, one quad phaser cannon, and one quantum torpedo launcher forward, with one 360-degree beam array (don't remember which one offhand - all of mine are drops from missions), one phaser array, one quantum torpedo launcher, and one photon mine launcher aft. I've made sure that her consoles support phaser and projectile weapons, along with some of those cool temporal consoles. According to these "experts", I should be lagging behind, unable to "do anything". Well, I'll confess I'd probably suck at PvP - good thing PvP isn't exactly a requirement, huh?

    On the other tentacle, she cruises through the content of the storyline missions nicely (those mines sure came in handy the first time we fought Hur'q, at DS9!). The "secret" there is that she's not a rainbow boat; all of her energy weapons use the same type of energy, so I can buff them all with a single console. That's it. There's no shame in mixing different kinds of weapons aboard a ship. (Rainbow boats can work too - for an example, I present USS Lorna Wing, a Yorktown-class science cruiser - but they're considerably harder to use effectively, and I don't recommend the concept for someone still figuring out the game.)

    Great, you have found something that works for you.. fantastic.

    Still doesn't give you reason to oppose us helping others who haven't found what works for them. If you ever actually read any of the help threads, you would see that in none of them do we tell them they have to do anything. We give them ideas and suggestions and encourage them to try different things that work for them. Carbon copying of builds is usually not recommended.

    If that build works for you then great. I'm sure it's perfectly fine for story missions and it's currently meeting your needs so it's fine. But what makes your advice so much better then anyone elses? You're bashing on people for attempting to help, even going so far as to oppose having basic techniques taught in game.. why? because your Frankenstein build works for you personally? Don't you think that's a bit selfish?

    We're trying to help people and you oppose at every turn for no other reason then the fact that you have something that works for you personally that's counter to what we normally encourage. All you have done is exhibit the same type of behavior you have accused us of but you're not even trying to help anyone. You're just being argumentative and selfish.
    Insert witty signature line here.
  • tunebreakertunebreaker Member Posts: 1,222 Arc User
    jonsills wrote: »
    Every time someone suggests that the do a better job teaching people how to build a ship someone assumes that means dictating to people how they have to play.
    Every time there's been a thread where someone asks for advice on how to play, there are a horde of "experts" who want to tell the poor kid how to build their ship. In this very thread, I've seen it stated as fact that you're not "supposed to" mix cannons and beams on the same ship, and apparently torpedoes are right out unless you're building a "torpedo boat".

    USS Time Bandit, a Paladin-class temporal battlecruiser (wearing a Ranger-class skin), mounts two phaser arrays, one quad phaser cannon, and one quantum torpedo launcher forward, with one 360-degree beam array (don't remember which one offhand - all of mine are drops from missions), one phaser array, one quantum torpedo launcher, and one photon mine launcher aft. I've made sure that her consoles support phaser and projectile weapons, along with some of those cool temporal consoles. According to these "experts", I should be lagging behind, unable to "do anything". Well, I'll confess I'd probably suck at PvP - good thing PvP isn't exactly a requirement, huh?

    On the other tentacle, she cruises through the content of the storyline missions nicely (those mines sure came in handy the first time we fought Hur'q, at DS9!). The "secret" there is that she's not a rainbow boat; all of her energy weapons use the same type of energy, so I can buff them all with a single console. That's it. There's no shame in mixing different kinds of weapons aboard a ship. (Rainbow boats can work too - for an example, I present USS Lorna Wing, a Yorktown-class science cruiser - but they're considerably harder to use effectively, and I don't recommend the concept for someone still figuring out the game.)

    I dare you to do any elite content. See how that goes. Your build works for you and gets you through content you want it get through to - that's absolutely fine. But in no way is your build optimal, or good to follow for a new player, and most folks who would follow that in hopes to better themselves would just spend uselessly money.
  • jonsillsjonsills Member Posts: 10,354 Arc User
    Here's the thing, though, guys - not everyone wants to do elite content. Why do you think one of the most common complaint threads has to do with getting queues to pop? Do you think it's because people aren't flying the "right" ships, and if they just had your builds they'd suddenly be falling all over themselves to fill those queues? 'Cause my certainty that this is not the case is somewhere in the high 80s.

    I do know my builds are adequate for merely Advanced, because I've done that. With a Risian cruiser, no less. (Ah, RXS Latinum Princess - I do hope you're enjoying your retirement.)

    And Sea, again, what you're doing isn't teaching players how to build a ship - it's teaching players how to build your ship. Are you catching the distinction yet? Teach them about synergies, about why rainbow builds are weaker and how if you're running a phaser build, phaser relays are your friend, but if you're using disruptors, the phaser relay isn't worth scrap. Teach them how the power balances work, and maybe something about which situations call for full power to weapons and which to shields. But if you just give them your ship, all you're teaching them is how to play like you. And if your playstyle isn't what they're into, that's going to bore them into leaving.
    Lorna-Wing-sig.png
  • seaofsorrowsseaofsorrows Member Posts: 10,918 Arc User
    edited September 2018
    jonsills wrote: »
    And Sea, again, what you're doing isn't teaching players how to build a ship - it's teaching players how to build your ship. Are you catching the distinction yet? Teach them about synergies, about why rainbow builds are weaker and how if you're running a phaser build, phaser relays are your friend, but if you're using disruptors, the phaser relay isn't worth scrap. Teach them how the power balances work, and maybe something about which situations call for full power to weapons and which to shields. But if you just give them your ship, all you're teaching them is how to play like you. And if your playstyle isn't what they're into, that's going to bore them into leaving.

    Oh, you mean the exact thing I have been saying all this time?

    For the 10 millionth time.. never once did I advocate the copying of builds or in any way imply that my way is right and should be copied. The intent has always been to teach players the fundamental core principals of basic ship building just like the exact ones you have named. I have never said anything otherwise, but of course you don't read the posts, you just see the name of the poster and argue.

    And yes, not mixing cannons and beams would be another one. Just because you do it doesn't mean others should. It would be mentioned that they can if they wish, the game allows it, but it won't get the best results. If they want to do it anyway.. fine.

    The only person saying anything about copying builds is you. Has been from the beginning, which is why I have determined that you're arguing just for the sake of argument. You don't even know what I am talking about you just see my name and argue.
    Insert witty signature line here.
  • antonine3258antonine3258 Member Posts: 2,391 Arc User
    Just as a side on systems being obtuse, but I've completely lost track of how power works (recharge rates, etc) with system changes; utilizing it correctly was a big reason my first Spoon Cruiser was okay.
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  • baddmoonrizinbaddmoonrizin Member Posts: 10,240 Community Moderator
    Please stop sniping each other. Thank you.
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  • seaofsorrowsseaofsorrows Member Posts: 10,918 Arc User
    Please stop sniping each other. Thank you.

    Fair enough, I have said my piece and will let it go.
    Insert witty signature line here.
  • lordsteve1lordsteve1 Member Posts: 3,492 Arc User
    I’ve always looked upon building a ship as akin to creating a garden.
    You have almost unlimited variety available to you but there’s so basic key elements you need to understand when you are creating that garden so everything does die off or look terrible. You don’t need to be told where to plant trees or flowers, but you need to know the reasoning for why you plant certain things in certain places, how to water them, what to feed them, when to trim them back. In essence it’s not a roadmap of what to do you need to be a good gardener; it’s the underlying understanding of how things work and how that affects what you wish to do.

    Building a ship is the same. You could get told how to do it, what to buy and where to put it on the ship. But it would be far better for players to be taught why they do certain things than be told exactly what to do. Don’t tell people but this and that and slot this way, but get them to understand what sort of synergy there is between the tac console and the weapon. Or teach them why they might want a combat impulse engine over a hyper-impulse engine because of how engine power handles differently.
    It’s very easy to answer a new player’s questions with a full listing of what exact gear to use and boff powers to match but it doesn’t really teach them anything. I’d much rather see a tutorial or in game documentation that explains the basic synergies between items and powers etc so that a player can make an infiormed go at tinkering with different builds.
    And for the sort of teaching we’re on about here isn’t really for getting people into elite content; it’s about getting people a basic understanding of the game’s working and then they can progress naturally from there.
    SulMatuul.png
  • brian334brian334 Member Posts: 2,214 Arc User
    An idea I have long been interested in seeing is to create a series of Training Exercises, such as was seen in TNG's Starfleet Battles episode. These could be holodeck simulations that are offered when a character gets a new ship on levelup, and it would focus on what's new at that tier.

    Ideally, there would be a Tac/Cruiser/Sci option, (or Raider/Raptor/Battlecruiser,) which discusses various philosophies related to these ships.

    As an example, if Character A has just acquired an escort or BoP, the scenario could begin by teaching how to perform an alpha strike by creating synergy between Power Levels and BOff Powers by taking on some small ships, show how shifting to Power Levels to Engines can help get out of Dodge before his shields fail, and how to run to the nearest friendly cruiser for healing. It could end by requiring the escort to take down a shield facing on a powerful ship so the accompanying cruiser can torpedo it.

    At each tier something new becomes available: Captain's Skills, DOffing, Promoting BOffs, Training Manuals, Reputation, whatever. The scenario should include these. Once unlocked, the captain should be allowed to return and replay them, or simply ignore them.

    Creating these scenarios would not take any time at all from the development staff: Foundry workers would love the assignment. Heck, they would probably create tutorials for every hull in the game if you asked.
  • trennantrennan Member Posts: 2,839 Arc User
    Teaching ship builds would be pointless. As everyone has their own way of doing it. This happens through discussion and trail and error. When someone asks me how to build a ship, my first question is always, "What are you looking to do with it?" Then I'll look at ways they could manage it. If it's something that I am unsure of, I'll grab a friend, or three, tot help and help them hash out a basic idea of skills, traits, and equipment, along with other potential gear they may want to get.

    Add to this that elite content can be completely ignored. Then any idea and ship build becomes viable. That's the next thing I be sure to tell them, "Elite content is there if you want to do it. But since you can get everything you need outside of them. There's no need to worry over it." Which cuts out the 10% of the game where the meta's rule right off. Since end game for all MMO's is the setting that almost anyone can complete, i.e. Normal.

    Then from here, knowing what marks they're going to be looking at needing, I'll point out how they can go about getting those marks. Thus cutting out the need to bother with Elites and the Meta builds. This also means they don't have to stress over getting this ship, or that ship. They can relax, play around with their ship build, and just have fun with it.

    But all this stems from the same thing, the lack of basic information. How gear affects things. How sets affect things. How boff powers affect things. How skills and traits affect things. How doffs affect things. Well you get the idea. There isn't anything in the game that explains this. If something like this was in game, it would provide the basic knowledge they need to start building their ship. Especially is it were easy to find, say a P.A.D.D. icon with an "A" in it added to the UI. Then for all the tutorials, all they would need to add is a remind that the information that explains is just a click away.
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  • jonsillsjonsills Member Posts: 10,354 Arc User
    lordsteve1 wrote: »
    I’ve always looked upon building a ship as akin to creating a garden.
    You have almost unlimited variety available to you but there’s so basic key elements you need to understand when you are creating that garden so everything does die off or look terrible. You don’t need to be told where to plant trees or flowers, but you need to know the reasoning for why you plant certain things in certain places, how to water them, what to feed them, when to trim them back. In essence it’s not a roadmap of what to do you need to be a good gardener; it’s the underlying understanding of how things work and how that affects what you wish to do.

    Building a ship is the same. You could get told how to do it, what to buy and where to put it on the ship. But it would be far better for players to be taught why they do certain things than be told exactly what to do. Don’t tell people but this and that and slot this way, but get them to understand what sort of synergy there is between the tac console and the weapon. Or teach them why they might want a combat impulse engine over a hyper-impulse engine because of how engine power handles differently.
    It’s very easy to answer a new player’s questions with a full listing of what exact gear to use and boff powers to match but it doesn’t really teach them anything. I’d much rather see a tutorial or in game documentation that explains the basic synergies between items and powers etc so that a player can make an infiormed go at tinkering with different builds.
    And for the sort of teaching we’re on about here isn’t really for getting people into elite content; it’s about getting people a basic understanding of the game’s working and then they can progress naturally from there.
    This. This right here.
    Lorna-Wing-sig.png
  • seaofsorrowsseaofsorrows Member Posts: 10,918 Arc User
    edited September 2018
    trennan wrote: »
    Teaching ship builds would be pointless. As everyone has their own way of doing it.

    And again, no one wants to change that.

    The intent isn't to tell people 'this goes here, always use this, never use this.' It isn't to design builds for players its to educate new players on how things work so that they can formulate their own builds and actually have them be effective.

    People say 'the game is easy,' but we have threads here on a daily basis (more on reddit) of new players asking for help because they can't past missions. Most of these issues come down to not knowing basic fundamental principals and that's because they were never taught. They don't know how Bridge Officer powers work, they don't know to use abilities that match their weapons, or consoles that boost what they currently have equipped. They don't know what basic things like Attack Patterns or Emergency Powers work, how their cool downs work, how to boost those abilities.. nothing. They have turrets and Onmi beams in their front weapons doing pathetic damage because they don't know they can move that to the rear and put something with some teeth in the front.. things like that.

    No one wants to tell them they have to build a certain way. Experimentation is fine, but it should be done from an educated perspective. The sheer number of players asking for help on a daily basis shows that it's not obvious and it's not easy for everyone. Most new players find the game to be difficult and that's just because no one ever explains basic core game play. Some of us were suggesting these things be taught and are being met with resistance based on nothing but our reputation as DPS oriented players. Everyone jumps on saying we're trying to 'tell people how to play' when as usual, we're just trying to help them find their own way. Not saying you're doing this (you're not) just a few people in general.

    It's obvious that these things needs to be better taught, hopefully Cryptic sees that and puts some effort into it.
    Insert witty signature line here.
  • spiritbornspiritborn Member Posts: 4,248 Arc User
    trennan wrote: »
    Teaching ship builds would be pointless. As everyone has their own way of doing it.

    And again, no one wants to change that.

    The intent isn't to tell people 'this goes here, always use this, never use this.' It isn't to design builds for players its to educate new players on how things work so that they can formulate their own builds and actually have them be effective.

    People say 'the game is easy,' but we have threads here on a daily basis (more on reddit) of new players asking for help because they can't past missions. Most of these issues come down to not knowing basic fundamental principals and that's because they were never taught. They don't know how Bridge Officer powers work, they don't know to use abilities that match their weapons, or consoles that boost what they currently have equipped. They don't know what basic things like Attack Patterns or Emergency Powers work, how their cool downs work, how to boost those abilities.. nothing. They have turrets and Onmi beams in their front weapons doing pathetic damage because they don't know they can move that to the rear and put something with some teeth in the front.. things like that.

    No one wants to tell them they have to build a certain way. Experimentation is fine, but it should be done from an educated perspective. The sheer number of players asking for help on a daily basis shows that it's not obvious and it's not easy for everyone. Most new players find the game to be difficult and that's just because no one ever explains basic core game play. Some of us were suggesting these things be taught and are being met with resistance based on nothing but our reputation as DPS oriented players. Everyone jumps on saying we're trying to 'tell people how to play' when as usual, we're just trying to help them find their own way. Not saying you're doing this (you're not) just a few people in general.

    It's obvious that these things needs to be better taught, hopefully Cryptic sees that and puts some effort into it.
    So in essence, one must learn the basics before they can really start to experiment, if so then I agree.

    The thing is if there's no foundation to build on 99.9% of your experimentation is gonna be utter TRIBBLE. Before anyone says I'm a "DPS player" no I wasn't even before I moved most to playing FF14 I was (barely) good enough to not get AFK penality, but that's it.

    I still don't really know what a "category 1 boost" or "category 2 boost" mean, those are the things Cryptic should teach, as they give you a foundation to build upon, if you want to make frankenbuild that mixes little bit of everything then go ahead now you know how to make one in a way that works and doesn't result on you getting your defeated by normal difficulty story mission.
  • lordsteve1lordsteve1 Member Posts: 3,492 Arc User
    You don’t even need to go into detail about Cat 1 or Cat 2 just yet either tbh.
    A lot of newer players do t even now what the stats on the warp core do, or how doffs work, or the different types of impulse engines one can use.
    Before should get into trying to help people with improved DPS (which really isn’t essential beyond a base of say 20k max for missions) you need to get them to understand the various components and what they do. Don’t get too specific, because that road leads to cookie cutter build and copied design choices.
    SulMatuul.png
  • where2r1where2r1 Member Posts: 6,054 Arc User
    edited September 2018
    "Cat 1" and "Cat 2" were terms coined by @virusdancer , a player. He used those terms to put a label on the pattern he saw in the math for damage calculating. When he was being taught by the mathematician/players who enjoy breaking that stuff down and used to frequent the game, and our forums. This was years ago... those terms stuck. With the players.

    That is why the Devs don't use those terms.

    You won't see them inside the game, in a tutorial BECAUSE it may not even be correct.
    Yes, Devs MAY use similar math (maybe...because they don't reveal their calculations) but they call it something totally different.

    It is my understanding that players owe a lot in our understanding the math underlying this game TO the best guesses and hard work done by devoted mathematicians who enjoy this game.
    "Spend your life doing strange things with weird people." -- UNK

    “Tell me and I forget. Teach me and I remember. Involve me and I learn.” -- Benjamin Franklin
  • reafisreafis Member Posts: 147 Arc User
    Ok, how about the game has the sort of wiki and guides for certain things built into the ship itself.

    Its never going to build for you but give unbiased advice for what you can do and what is available. You could even add it into the current ship interior/bridge to give them more purpose. Or if you wanted to have a build tutorial add it in at utopia planitia or the rom/kling equivalent.

    What you could also have it have the system give more general advice (for example you want more phaser damage) you go onto your bridge and ask your tactical officer (or other relevant officer). Or ask your engineer for advice on shield power etc.

    Prehaps you could even view you ships base DPS in the bridge view (and maybe have a simulation mode) , so that say you added a phaser console and it shows your new dps vs the old one (STO sort of does this when you equip but it can be quite daunting)

    Making your Bridge Officers your access to assistance would really help the immersion of STO.

    You could also add bridge officer feedback (which you could turn on or off) to better explain the effects of decisions. So for example when you go to full impulse your engineer would pop up a bit of text stating that the weapons etc will be diverting power to the engines and that weapons etc will be affected. This could work similar to the current voice over for shields down etc.
  • brian334brian334 Member Posts: 2,214 Arc User
    reafis wrote: »
    Ok, how about the game has the sort of wiki and guides for certain things built into the ship itself.

    Its never going to build for you but give unbiased advice for what you can do and what is available. You could even add it into the current ship interior/bridge to give them more purpose. Or if you wanted to have a build tutorial add it in at utopia planitia or the rom/kling equivalent.

    What you could also have it have the system give more general advice (for example you want more phaser damage) you go onto your bridge and ask your tactical officer (or other relevant officer). Or ask your engineer for advice on shield power etc.

    Prehaps you could even view you ships base DPS in the bridge view (and maybe have a simulation mode) , so that say you added a phaser console and it shows your new dps vs the old one (STO sort of does this when you equip but it can be quite daunting)

    Making your Bridge Officers your access to assistance would really help the immersion of STO.

    You could also add bridge officer feedback (which you could turn on or off) to better explain the effects of decisions. So for example when you go to full impulse your engineer would pop up a bit of text stating that the weapons etc will be diverting power to the engines and that weapons etc will be affected. This could work similar to the current voice over for shields down etc.

    I like this idea. +1
  • where2r1where2r1 Member Posts: 6,054 Arc User
    edited September 2018
    ruinthefun wrote: »
    Nope, it is. It's not because mouse over to weapon, since I can get it to fire by keybinding the specific weapon involved, so no mouse movement delay.

    Wait, what???? How did you set up for your testing, Armada Leader? Never mind...that is off topic.

    "Spend your life doing strange things with weird people." -- UNK

    “Tell me and I forget. Teach me and I remember. Involve me and I learn.” -- Benjamin Franklin
  • jonsillsjonsills Member Posts: 10,354 Arc User
    where2r1 wrote: »
    "Cat 1" and "Cat 2" were terms coined by @virusdancer , a player. He used those terms to put a label on the pattern he saw in the math for damage calculating. When he was being taught by the mathematician/players who enjoy breaking that stuff down and used to frequent the game, and our forums. This was years ago... those terms stuck. With the players.

    That is why the Devs don't use those terms.

    You won't see them inside the game, in a tutorial BECAUSE it may not even be correct.
    Yes, Devs MAY use similar math (maybe...because they don't reveal their calculations) but they call it something totally different.
    Or, as has been said around the forums since people tried to work out how "diminishing returns" worked in Champions Online, the math is very... Cryptic. <sunglasses>
    Lorna-Wing-sig.png
  • lordsteve1lordsteve1 Member Posts: 3,492 Arc User
    jonsills wrote: »
    where2r1 wrote: »
    "Cat 1" and "Cat 2" were terms coined by @virusdancer , a player. He used those terms to put a label on the pattern he saw in the math for damage calculating. When he was being taught by the mathematician/players who enjoy breaking that stuff down and used to frequent the game, and our forums. This was years ago... those terms stuck. With the players.

    That is why the Devs don't use those terms.

    You won't see them inside the game, in a tutorial BECAUSE it may not even be correct.
    Yes, Devs MAY use similar math (maybe...because they don't reveal their calculations) but they call it something totally different.
    Or, as has been said around the forums since people tried to work out how "diminishing returns" worked in Champions Online, the math is very... Cryptic. <sunglasses>

    Yes. Don't try to understand the in game maths; that way leads to.....madness.
    SulMatuul.png
  • meimeitoomeimeitoo Member Posts: 12,587 Arc User
    I always thought cat1 dmg was just taken from the base-dmg of a weapon/console, and cat2 after all consoles and such were already applied. Turns out, as Tune tried to explain to me once, it's more complex than that. :)

    As for 'diminishing returns', on things like locators at least, that's easy, as there are no diminishing returns on those. :) As the listed dmg increase simply off your weapons' base-dmg (increasing with an equal amount with each new locator). Because of cat2, it only looks diminishing. The diminishing returns on resists (both in and out) really *is* beyond my comprehension. :)
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  • spiritbornspiritborn Member Posts: 4,248 Arc User
    As concept disminishing returns isn't that hard to understand tbh, basically the "price" for increase in stat increases more you had of the stat thus your "returns" aka how much your stat increases diminishes higher the stat is and honestly only thing players really need to know is the caps (aka where it comes "not worth it" to increase that stat).
  • where2r1where2r1 Member Posts: 6,054 Arc User
    "Spend your life doing strange things with weird people." -- UNK

    “Tell me and I forget. Teach me and I remember. Involve me and I learn.” -- Benjamin Franklin
  • vetteguy904vetteguy904 Member Posts: 3,843 Arc User
    Ship load outs need to be explained better? What is there to explain?

    PLAY the way you want to play.

    how many threads ahve you seen with the "help me with my build" and they have tetryon arrays with Phaser relays? or they are building a particle build and have no EPGs? they complain about the TRIBBLE ship not turning and they have no RCS? they pop too easy and they have no resists. and they probably do not know there are consoles thet GIVE them those resists.. hel,, it's only been a year since i discovered some consoles have Res A res B
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  • vetteguy904vetteguy904 Member Posts: 3,843 Arc User
    jonsills wrote: »
    Every time someone suggests that the do a better job teaching people how to build a ship someone assumes that means dictating to people how they have to play.
    Every time there's been a thread where someone asks for advice on how to play, there are a horde of "experts" who want to tell the poor kid how to build their ship. In this very thread, I've seen it stated as fact that you're not "supposed to" mix cannons and beams on the same ship, and apparently torpedoes are right out unless you're building a "torpedo boat".

    USS Time Bandit, a Paladin-class temporal battlecruiser (wearing a Ranger-class skin), mounts two phaser arrays, one quad phaser cannon, and one quantum torpedo launcher forward, with one 360-degree beam array (don't remember which one offhand - all of mine are drops from missions), one phaser array, one quantum torpedo launcher, and one photon mine launcher aft. I've made sure that her consoles support phaser and projectile weapons, along with some of those cool temporal consoles. According to these "experts", I should be lagging behind, unable to "do anything". Well, I'll confess I'd probably suck at PvP - good thing PvP isn't exactly a requirement, huh?

    On the other tentacle, she cruises through the content of the storyline missions nicely (those mines sure came in handy the first time we fought Hur'q, at DS9!). The "secret" there is that she's not a rainbow boat; all of her energy weapons use the same type of energy, so I can buff them all with a single console. That's it. There's no shame in mixing different kinds of weapons aboard a ship. (Rainbow boats can work too - for an example, I present USS Lorna Wing, a Yorktown-class science cruiser - but they're considerably harder to use effectively, and I don't recommend the concept for someone still figuring out the game.)

    I agree with you, Brother. my ships do not leave drydock without a beam array and torpedo launcher fore and aft. to me it just isn't "right". I'm still leery of taking the Defiant class out with only 2 360 beams aft because theya re not hitting as hard as the array forward. and even with a array forward, torpedo, quad cannon and dula heavy, I still normally place top 3 in RAs and CC. I'm no DPS chaser, by a long shot
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