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My problems with TRIBBLE

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  • smokebaileysmokebailey Member Posts: 3,585 Arc User
    valoreah wrote: »
    talonxv wrote: »
    ...Same deal with Star Wars The Last Jedi(and I abhor that movie)...

    Sam here. Loved Rogue One though! TFA and TLJ made me want to cry for the franchise. LOL

    100% Agree.
    I liked Rogue One, it was a nice side-story, but the other three (SW:TFA, SW:TLJ, and SW:S) were not well done and disjointed in terms of plot and continuity.

    And, despite being a prequel....R1 kept the classic, 70's look to it....no big changes there, yo.
    dvZq2Aj.jpg
  • artan42artan42 Member Posts: 10,275 Bug Hunter
    reyan01 wrote: »
    talonxv wrote: »
    > @theraven2378 said:
    > Can't we just enjoy Discovery? It's the first Trek series in 17 years so that's better than nothing at all. Trek had to change for a modern audience, that is fair enough and I'll happily watch it because it's still Trek at end of the day.

    If it was ok to good sure. To me it's not.

    And season 1 of TNG was an absolute bag of nails too. It's generally accepted that TNG didn't truly find it's feet until season 3.

    And yet TNG as a whole is generally very fondly remembered, with some even wearing rose-tinted spectacles where it is concerned.

    DS9 was weak for the first couple of seasons but then after season 3 and 4, it comes into it's own. Give Discovery a chance

    It was also helped by having the most consistently good opening series of any of the shows. It had issues with pacing, lack of development for secondary characters, and stunted potential due to only having two plots going on (the war and the Mirror Universe).

    It was consistent though, it never reached the lows TNG or TOS' first series did. It tried something new with its characters unlike VGR and ENT, and it knew what it wanted to be (even if it has changed dramatically for series 2) unlike DS9.
    valoreah wrote: »
    On the point of old visuals, personally I'm on the fence as I tend to agree with those who truly dislike the change in aesthetics. TBH, I really don't care for the Klingon redesign and did not find that to be necessary at all. I also feel the uniforms could have been done better to be a little closer to the TOS versions without looking too campy.

    There are things they could have done to tie it into TOS more visually. But they didn't need to. It's still a decade off from WNMHGB. That's more than enough time for the Klingons to start wearing lamé and the Federation to switch to turtlenecks if they so wish.

    But TOS is not the only entry into this timeframe the show needs to tie into. As this is post 2005 it needs to tie into ENT as it's a sequel to it. Since 2009 showed us what ships and technology looked like in the 2230s it needs to follow on from that.

    And I'm serious when I say TOS is the outlier and that DSC flows into the TMP era nicely.
    Star-Trek-IV-The-Undiscovered-Country-Bridge-Crew-777x340.jpg

    and...
    ea_helmnav6.jpg

    These resemble the DSC bridges a lot. We've got large spaces, dark lighting, touchscreens, open areas, shaped furnishings, and that overall blue and black feel.

    And the Kelvin, Franklin, and NX. All feel to be from the same designers, the ones who would later condens them into the Intrepid, Sovereign, and Defiant bridges.

    It may only be a decade off from TOS but it's only two decades off from TMP and two away from the Kelvin and it's not a one episode flashback or a standalone film, it's a series designed to run the full seven series so it's got to fill in the timeframe by being more than a reference to the odd duck of the franchise (aesthetics wise).
    And, despite being a prequel....R1 kept the classic, 70's look to it....no big changes there, yo.

    Because they didn't need to be. Star Wars looks like our future and our present. Military tech now looks the same as it has since the 40s, 50s, or 60s. There's an illustrative post of this in the Galactic News section in the DSC expansion announcement thread. If you asked the US military to build you a kilometre long space battleship it'd probably look exactly like an Imperator Class. Star Wars isn't about cutting edge tech, it's about a stagnant universe where everything has looked the same since the days of the Old Republic.
    There's very few futuristic sci-fi designs. Mon Calamari, The Naboo, Umbara are the ones that spring to mind everything else looks like it rolled straight off a production line in Bristol.

    Star Trek dropped the 60s vision for the future as soon as it hit the big screen. Then they looked upon their work, thought on a bit then dropped the bland 70s vision of the future once they hit series 3 of TNG and TWoK and haven't looked back.

    Star Wars is stagnation, Star trek is exploration. Look at how often Starfleet changes their uniforms (ignore the last five that aren't the 29th century one, they're STO only). They went from looking like TOS to looking like TMP in about two years from Kirk returning.​​
    22762792376_ac7c992b7c_o.png
    Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though.
    JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.

    #TASforSTO


    '...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
    'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
    'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
    '...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
    'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
    '...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek

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  • valoreahvaloreah Member Posts: 10,340 Arc User
    @artan42 I don't mind the updated technology so much. My personal gripes are the uniforms and the (unnecessary IMO) redesign of the Klingons.
    Dear Devs: I enjoyed the Legacy of Romulus expansion much more than the Delta Rising expansion. .
    thecosmic1 wrote:
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  • artan42artan42 Member Posts: 10,275 Bug Hunter
    valoreah wrote: »
    @artan42 I don't mind the updated technology so much. My personal gripes are the uniforms and the (unnecessary IMO) redesign of the Klingons.

    The only part that was specifically relating to your post was...
    There are things they could have done to tie it into TOS more visually. But they didn't need to. It's still a decade off from WNMHGB. That's more than enough time for the Klingons to start wearing lamé and the Federation to switch to turtlenecks if they so wish.

    The rest of it was just general stuff. I agree with you about the Klingons because to me they perfected the look in ID
    0*2W-WdwIAIot0GnSV.jpg
    ZAXeLTN.jpg

    Here they reached peek Klingon. They have enough makeup work round their entire heads that they don't look like humans with prosthetic foreheads (upon their real heads)

    But it wouldn't take a lot to vastly improve the DSC Klingons to remove the appearance of being such a redesign...
    YQn4ovo.jpg

    That and adding hair on some of them and mixing them in with the long headed look would be the best solution.

    So what is your gripe with the uniforms?​​
    22762792376_ac7c992b7c_o.png
    Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though.
    JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.

    #TASforSTO


    '...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
    'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
    'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
    '...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
    'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
    '...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek

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  • talonxvtalonxv Member Posts: 4,241 Arc User
    > @valoreah said:
    > talonxv wrote: »
    >
    > ...Same deal with Star Wars The Last Jedi(and I abhor that movie)...
    >
    >
    >
    >
    > Sam here. Loved Rogue One though! TFA and TLJ made me want to cry for the franchise. LOL

    Rogue One was fine. Out of the Disney Movies, it was my favorite. Because they didn't try to re-invent the wheel.
    afMSv4g.jpg
    Star Trek Battles member. Want to roll with a good group of people regardless of fleets and not have to worry about DPS while doing STFs? Come join the channel and join in the fun!

    http://forum.arcgames.com/startrekonline/discussion/1145998/star-trek-battles-channel-got-canon/p1
  • valoreahvaloreah Member Posts: 10,340 Arc User
    artan42 wrote: »
    So what is your gripe with the uniforms?​​

    Eh, I just don't like them all that much. The weird angled collar and use of the logo bother me. I also didn't care for the tiny rank pips on the logo. I've always disliked the uniforms to be honest, regardless of series. Enterprise seemed to me to have the most functional and practical uniforms. They at least had pockets and stuff.

    Of all of them, I actually like the Oddy uniforms here in STO the best. They at least look functional, especially the excursion variant.

    Dear Devs: I enjoyed the Legacy of Romulus expansion much more than the Delta Rising expansion. .
    thecosmic1 wrote:
    Anyone calling Valoreah a "Cryptic fanboy" must be new to the forum.

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  • talonxvtalonxv Member Posts: 4,241 Arc User
    > @artan42 said:
    > valoreah wrote: »
    >
    > @artan42 I don't mind the updated technology so much. My personal gripes are the uniforms and the (unnecessary IMO) redesign of the Klingons.
    >
    >
    >
    >
    > The only part that was specifically relating to your post was...
    > There are things they could have done to tie it into TOS more visually. But they didn't need to. It's still a decade off from WNMHGB. That's more than enough time for the Klingons to start wearing lamé and the Federation to switch to turtlenecks if they so wish.
    >
    >
    >
    >
    > The rest of it was just general stuff. I agree with you about the Klingons because to me they perfected the look in ID
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    > Here they reached peek Klingon. They have enough makeup work round their entire heads that they don't look like humans with prosthetic foreheads (upon their real heads)
    >
    > But it wouldn't take a lot to vastly improve the DSC Klingons to remove the appearance of being such a redesign...
    >
    >
    >
    > That and adding hair on some of them and mixing them in with the long headed look would be the best solution.
    >
    > So what is your gripe with the uniforms?​​

    The uniforms my only real gripe is a bit too flashy with the paneling. Other than that, actually a decent throwback to ENT.

    Far as season 2, I just didn't like Pike's uniform. Add on and this is just my 2 cents, Pike looks too old. Needed to be aged down a bit. To me and this is just my PoV he looks late 40s when nominally he should look mid 30s. Wish Pike would of shown up with the turtleneck instead of what he did.

    Also the suits, a bit of polish and they could pass for the same Starfleet space suits of the 24th century instead of looking more like TOS. Now reimage ok I get it. But they got a bit too close to First Contact space suits.

    Klingons...well they've been talked to death. You actually nailed it. In KT Klingons looked like Klingons. They could of brought over that design for DSC and I wouldn't of bat an eyelash at it. Plus their outfits...Ehhh...sorry no, just doesn't quite fit.

    This is why overall I think my major malfunction is the fact change the time period to 2395 and a few minor changes and this would fit just fine in prime timeline.

    That's where I tend to trip over my feet on this. Compared to the rest of the lore, it looks too new.
    afMSv4g.jpg
    Star Trek Battles member. Want to roll with a good group of people regardless of fleets and not have to worry about DPS while doing STFs? Come join the channel and join in the fun!

    http://forum.arcgames.com/startrekonline/discussion/1145998/star-trek-battles-channel-got-canon/p1
  • ryan218ryan218 Member Posts: 34,630 Arc User
    Now on the Klingons I will absolutely agree (and your Photoshop Artan seems to me to improve them massively). Why they didn't use the Into Darkness design is beyond me.

    I'm actually not too keen on the DSC uniforms, but I really like Pike's uniform. For me, there seems to be too much of a break between both ENT and TOS with the DSC uniforms. They [i]don't[/i] look functional to me (I would have been okay if it had emulated ENT more), but also look almost completely different to the TOS uniform. For example, if you look in the trailer, Pike stands out among the Discovery crew like a sore thumb. It's too different to both uniforms to really gel with me.

    (And yes, I know, we could make the same argument of the jump from TOS-TMP-TWOK, a period of less than a decade.)

    The thing is, massive leaps between designs often work better from a continuity standpoint than intermediate ones. Militaries usually don't change uniforms that often, and when they do, they're minor incremental changes followed by a massive change. DSC could have gotten away with a uniform that clearly followed on from ENT, and [i]then[/i] jumping to the classic TOS look. As it stands, if you put the ENT, DSC and TOS uniforms in a row, there seems to be no connection. Heck, they didn't even keep the division colours from TOS, some ENT [i]made a point of doing[/i]!

    Yeah, I like DSC (largely because I'll usually swallow visual inconsistencies if the story's decent), but the visual directing leaves a lot to be desired.
  • valoreahvaloreah Member Posts: 10,340 Arc User
    patrickngo wrote: »
    ...made worse, by repeated efforts to 'ride' the previous lore's success with gratuitous shout-outs to better shows and unnecessary tie-ins to try and give it a pedigree it did not, and does not deserve, instead of earning that pedigree for itself.

    The weakness of TNG had one strength: the first season had ONE tie to the original series, it was in the first minutes of the opening episode, and we didn't get another for several seasons.

    There were more than one tie to TOS. Entire episodes from season 1 like "The Naked Now" were ties to the original series. Discovery isn't doing any more or less than any other Trek series in this regard.
    Waterworld. or maybe The Postman, or how about Battlefield Earth? because those all had lots of special effects, and famous actors or pretty actors or famous, pretty actors. But, the story delivered?

    sucked ****.

    With regard to Battlefield Earth, your assessment is being far too generous IMO. LOL! Gawd that movie was just awful.



    Dear Devs: I enjoyed the Legacy of Romulus expansion much more than the Delta Rising expansion. .
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  • valoreahvaloreah Member Posts: 10,340 Arc User
    ryan218 wrote: »
    Now on the Klingons I will absolutely agree (and your Photoshop Artan seems to me to improve them massively). Why they didn't use the Into Darkness design is beyond me.

    I didn't care for the KT Klingon redesign because of the ridges. I prefer Westmore's makeups where they each had different ridge patterns. That makes more sense - to me at least.

    Really wish they would have left the Klingons alone in Discovery.
    Dear Devs: I enjoyed the Legacy of Romulus expansion much more than the Delta Rising expansion. .
    thecosmic1 wrote:
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  • artan42artan42 Member Posts: 10,275 Bug Hunter
    valoreah wrote: »
    Eh, I just don't like them all that much. The weird angled collar and use of the logo bother me. I also didn't care for the tiny rank pips on the logo. I've always disliked the uniforms to be honest, regardless of series. Enterprise seemed to me to have the most functional and practical uniforms. They at least had pockets and stuff.

    Ah, I see, I thought you meant they didn't fit in. I mostly agree. I dislike the asymmetrical collar and tiny pips as well.
    ryan218 wrote: »
    Now on the Klingons I will absolutely agree (and your Photoshop Artan seems to me to improve them massively). Why they didn't use the Into Darkness design is beyond me.

    Well I'm just posting it I didn't make it. There's still problems with them, like the heavy ridges over Kols nose or how L'Rell's ears are fused with her head (I don't mind it on Voq because he's supposed to be abnormal) or the blue and purple coloured skin (though, again, I think the KTs reddish/brown was the right tone to go with).
    ryan218 wrote: »
    For me, there seems to be too much of a break between both ENT and TOS with the DSC uniforms. They don't look functional to me (I would have been okay if it had emulated ENT more), but also look almost completely different to the TOS uniform. For example, if you look in the trailer, Pike stands out among the Discovery crew like a sore thumb. It's too different to both uniforms to really gel with me.

    There's a 100 years between ENT and TOS and a decade before DSC they were wearing the TNG like Kelvin uniforms which were also much more ceremonial than functional. Then after a short few years of going practical again with WNMHGB and TOS they're back to ceremonial with TWoK.

    With the image I posted above it's really only the TOS ones that switch to functional between the Franklin all the way up to DS9/VGR.
    ryan218 wrote: »
    The thing is, massive leaps between designs often work better from a continuity standpoint than intermediate ones. Militaries usually don't change uniforms that often, and when they do, they're minor incremental changes followed by a massive change. DSC could have gotten away with a uniform that clearly followed on from ENT, and then jumping to the classic TOS look. As it stands, if you put the ENT, DSC and TOS uniforms in a row, there seems to be no connection. Heck, they didn't even keep the division colours from TOS, some ENT made a point of doing!

    That's because these still come between ENT and DSC.
    img01med.jpg
    ryan218 wrote: »
    Yeah, I like DSC (largely because I'll usually swallow visual inconsistencies if the story's decent), but the visual directing leaves a lot to be desired.

    At least they build their own sets and don't cheap out by filming in factories pig-5.gif ABRAMS!! TvNf8Vs.png
    talonxv wrote: »
    The uniforms my only real gripe is a bit too flashy with the paneling. Other than that, actually a decent throwback to ENT.

    Other than being blue I don't see a link to ENT in them. They're cerimonial. I see them as more the precursors to the TWoK uniforms.
    talonxv wrote: »
    Pike looks too old. Needed to be aged down a bit. To me and this is just my PoV he looks late 40s when nominally he should look mid 30s.

    He's two years older then in The Cage but also two years younger than in the KT so he has to look like a blend of both actors and they nailed that.
    talonxv wrote: »
    Also the suits, a bit of polish and they could pass for the same Starfleet space suits of the 24th century instead of looking more like TOS. Now reimage ok I get it. But they got a bit too close to First Contact space suits.

    This is the suit we see imeaditly proceding it chronalogically. This is what they made in the KT around the same time as DSC. This comes about a decade later and this slightly before it. All of these share one thing in common, they're basically the same thing. Bubble helmets, rubbery undersuits, and mainly white. This is the EV suit from the DSC series 2 trailer (I discounted the series one suit for the same reason I discounted the TMP one, it's more of a thruster suit not a EV suit), it's almost the same principle as the TWoK one. It's a big chestplate over a rubbery undersuit. There's slightly more armour but not much.
    talonxv wrote: »
    Plus their outfits...Ehhh...sorry no, just doesn't quite fit.

    If you mean T'Kuvma's crews outfits then yeah. They look stupid. If you mean Kols house then no.
    7202b8e0e2e51770_dsc_109_3.jpg

    This is an amazing costume. It also matches the look of the Klingons in ENT and TKT. There's no KDF here, just houses. Most of the Klingons in eNT are borderlanders, in the KT the crew are a military patrol in a deserted wasteland and Kol's crew are highborne nobles.
    talonxv wrote: »
    That's where I tend to trip over my feet on this. Compared to the rest of the lore, it looks too new.

    I really don't see it. Dated 70s and 80s filming/effects and some dodgy haistyles aside DSC is a prequel to the TOS films and a sequel to the Kelvin era with very minimal squinting.
    valoreah wrote: »
    I didn't care for the KT Klingon redesign because of the ridges. I prefer Westmore's makeups where they each had different ridge patterns. That makes more sense - to me at least.

    We only see one Klingon without a helmet in ID so technically they could have different ridges. It wasn't until mid way through TNG we even got that (and into TUC which was filmed at the same time). All the Klingons in TMP were the same and the rest of the TOS films and early TNG had about three or four moulds to rotate around.

    Basically I'm saying there's only one unmasked in the film and only about 10 or so that have full makeup in BtS stuff (the rest would presumably be in costume the whole time) so it's not inconceivable they could all be related (in the same house). All Duras' family have the same ridges as do all of Worfs.​​
    22762792376_ac7c992b7c_o.png
    Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though.
    JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.

    #TASforSTO


    '...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
    'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
    'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
    '...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
    'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
    '...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek

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  • valoreahvaloreah Member Posts: 10,340 Arc User
    artan42 wrote: »
    Basically I'm saying there's only one unmasked in the film and only about 10 or so that have full makeup in BtS stuff (the rest would presumably be in costume the whole time) so it's not inconceivable they could all be related (in the same house). All Duras' family have the same ridges as do all of Worfs.​​

    True. Although I still think the ridges look to ... industrial? They look machine copied to me. Nature tends to have more subtle differences and nuances IMO.

    P.S. I really loved Kol's costume as well.
    Dear Devs: I enjoyed the Legacy of Romulus expansion much more than the Delta Rising expansion. .
    thecosmic1 wrote:
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  • talonxvtalonxv Member Posts: 4,241 Arc User
    > @artan42 said:
    > valoreah wrote: »
    >
    > Eh, I just don't like them all that much. The weird angled collar and use of the logo bother me. I also didn't care for the tiny rank pips on the logo. I've always disliked the uniforms to be honest, regardless of series. Enterprise seemed to me to have the most functional and practical uniforms. They at least had pockets and stuff.
    >
    >
    >
    >
    > Ah, I see, I thought you meant they didn't fit in. I mostly agree. I dislike the asymmetrical collar and tiny pips as well.
    > ryan218 wrote: »
    >
    > Now on the Klingons I will absolutely agree (and your Photoshop Artan seems to me to improve them massively). Why they didn't use the Into Darkness design is beyond me.
    >
    >
    >
    >
    > Well I'm just posting it I didn't make it. There's still problems with them, like the heavy ridges over Kols nose or how L'Rell's ears are fused with her head (I don't mind it on Voq because he's supposed to be abnormal) or the blue and purple coloured skin (though, again, I think the KTs reddish/brown was the right tone to go with).
    > ryan218 wrote: »
    >
    > For me, there seems to be too much of a break between both ENT and TOS with the DSC uniforms. They don't look functional to me (I would have been okay if it had emulated ENT more), but also look almost completely different to the TOS uniform. For example, if you look in the trailer, Pike stands out among the Discovery crew like a sore thumb. It's too different to both uniforms to really gel with me.
    >
    >
    >
    >
    > There's a 100 years between ENT and TOS and a decade before DSC they were wearing the TNG like Kelvin uniforms which were also much more ceremonial than functional. Then after a short few years of going practical again with WNMHGB and TOS they're back to ceremonial with TWoK.
    >
    > With the image I posted above it's really only the TOS ones that switch to functional between the Franklin all the way up to DS9/VGR.
    > ryan218 wrote: »
    >
    > The thing is, massive leaps between designs often work better from a continuity standpoint than intermediate ones. Militaries usually don't change uniforms that often, and when they do, they're minor incremental changes followed by a massive change. DSC could have gotten away with a uniform that clearly followed on from ENT, and then jumping to the classic TOS look. As it stands, if you put the ENT, DSC and TOS uniforms in a row, there seems to be no connection. Heck, they didn't even keep the division colours from TOS, some ENT made a point of doing!
    >
    >
    >
    >
    > That's because these still come between ENT and DSC.
    >
    >
    > ryan218 wrote: »
    >
    > Yeah, I like DSC (largely because I'll usually swallow visual inconsistencies if the story's decent), but the visual directing leaves a lot to be desired.
    >
    >
    >
    >
    > At least they build their own sets and don't cheap out by filming in factories ABRAMS!!
    > talonxv wrote: »
    >
    > The uniforms my only real gripe is a bit too flashy with the paneling. Other than that, actually a decent throwback to ENT.
    >
    >
    >
    >
    > Other than being blue I don't see a link to ENT in them. They're cerimonial. I see them as more the precursors to the TWoK uniforms.
    > talonxv wrote: »
    >
    > Pike looks too old. Needed to be aged down a bit. To me and this is just my PoV he looks late 40s when nominally he should look mid 30s.
    >
    >
    >
    >
    > He's two years older then in The Cage but also two years younger than in the KT so he has to look like a blend of both actors and they nailed that.
    > talonxv wrote: »
    >
    > Also the suits, a bit of polish and they could pass for the same Starfleet space suits of the 24th century instead of looking more like TOS. Now reimage ok I get it. But they got a bit too close to First Contact space suits.
    >
    >
    >
    >
    > This is the suit we see imeaditly proceding it chronalogically. This is what they made in the KT around the same time as DSC. This comes about a decade later and this slightly before it. All of these share one thing in common, they're basically the same thing. Bubble helmets, rubbery undersuits, and mainly white. This is the EV suit from the DSC series 2 trailer (I discounted the series one suit for the same reason I discounted the TMP one, it's more of a thruster suit not a EV suit), it's almost the same principle as the TWoK one. It's a big chestplate over a rubbery undersuit. There's slightly more armour but not much.
    > talonxv wrote: »
    >
    > Plus their outfits...Ehhh...sorry no, just doesn't quite fit.
    >
    >
    >
    >
    > If you mean T'Kuvma's crews outfits then yeah. They look stupid. If you mean Kols house then no.
    >
    >
    >
    > This is an amazing costume. It also matches the look of the Klingons in ENT and TKT. There's no KDF here, just houses. Most of the Klingons in eNT are borderlanders, in the KT the crew are a military patrol in a deserted wasteland and Kol's crew are highborne nobles.
    > talonxv wrote: »
    >
    > That's where I tend to trip over my feet on this. Compared to the rest of the lore, it looks too new.
    >
    >
    >
    >
    > I really don't see it. Dated 70s and 80s filming/effects and some dodgy haistyles aside DSC is a prequel to the TOS films and a sequel to the Kelvin era with very minimal squinting.
    > valoreah wrote: »
    >
    > I didn't care for the KT Klingon redesign because of the ridges. I prefer Westmore's makeups where they each had different ridge patterns. That makes more sense - to me at least.
    >
    >
    >
    >
    > We only see one Klingon without a helmet in ID so technically they could have different ridges. It wasn't until mid way through TNG we even got that (and into TUC which was filmed at the same time). All the Klingons in TMP were the same and the rest of the TOS films and early TNG had about three or four moulds to rotate around.
    >
    > Basically I'm saying there's only one unmasked in the film and only about 10 or so that have full makeup in BtS stuff (the rest would presumably be in costume the whole time) so it's not inconceivable they could all be related (in the same house). All Duras' family have the same ridges as do all of Worfs.​​

    Ok Kols outfit I will grant you looked good. I think a bigger problem I had conceptually with the Klingons, give then pale skin, replace the ridges with a big red element and what do you get instead?

    Na'Kul. They look way too much like the Na'kul. It was bugging me till I happened to see a mission with them in it and that's when it stuck me.
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  • artan42artan42 Member Posts: 10,275 Bug Hunter
    talonxv wrote: »
    I think a bigger problem I had conceptually with the Klingons, give then pale skin, replace the ridges with a big red element and what do you get instead?

    Na'Kul. They look way too much like the Na'kul. It was bugging me till I happened to see a mission with them in it and that's when it stuck me.

    Well if you take away the forehead prosthetics and replace them with a new one then they might resemble the Na'kuhl but if you took away the rides from the TNG Klingons they'd look like humans because they didn't have any facial prosthetics at all.

    There's only so many things you can build around a human head and in Trek most of it's on the forehead.​​
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  • jonsillsjonsills Member Posts: 8,725 Arc User
    talonxv wrote: »
    I think a bigger problem I had conceptually with the Klingons, give then pale skin, replace the ridges with a big red element and what do you get instead?

    Na'Kul. They look way too much like the Na'kul. It was bugging me till I happened to see a mission with them in it and that's when it stuck me.
    Take away their ridges, stick antennae on there, make their skin blue, and you've got Andorians. Slim down the ridges, let them have normal human skin and give 'em pointy ears, they're Romulans. It has to do with the limits of what you can do economically with the shape of a human actor's head.
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  • reyan01reyan01 Member Posts: 12,889 Arc User
    artan42 wrote: »
    reyan01 wrote: »
    talonxv wrote: »
    > @theraven2378 said:
    > Can't we just enjoy Discovery? It's the first Trek series in 17 years so that's better than nothing at all. Trek had to change for a modern audience, that is fair enough and I'll happily watch it because it's still Trek at end of the day.

    If it was ok to good sure. To me it's not.

    And season 1 of TNG was an absolute bag of nails too. It's generally accepted that TNG didn't truly find it's feet until season 3.

    And yet TNG as a whole is generally very fondly remembered, with some even wearing rose-tinted spectacles where it is concerned.

    DS9 was weak for the first couple of seasons but then after season 3 and 4, it comes into it's own. Give Discovery a chance

    It was also helped by having the most consistently good opening series of any of the shows. It had issues with pacing, lack of development for secondary characters, and stunted potential due to only having two plots going on (the war and the Mirror Universe).

    It was consistent though, it never reached the lows TNG or TOS' first series did. It tried something new with its characters unlike VGR and ENT, and it knew what it wanted to be (even if it has changed dramatically for series 2) unlike DS9.
    valoreah wrote: »
    On the point of old visuals, personally I'm on the fence as I tend to agree with those who truly dislike the change in aesthetics. TBH, I really don't care for the Klingon redesign and did not find that to be necessary at all. I also feel the uniforms could have been done better to be a little closer to the TOS versions without looking too campy.

    There are things they could have done to tie it into TOS more visually. But they didn't need to. It's still a decade off from WNMHGB. That's more than enough time for the Klingons to start wearing lamé and the Federation to switch to turtlenecks if they so wish.

    But TOS is not the only entry into this timeframe the show needs to tie into. As this is post 2005 it needs to tie into ENT as it's a sequel to it. Since 2009 showed us what ships and technology looked like in the 2230s it needs to follow on from that.

    And I'm serious when I say TOS is the outlier and that DSC flows into the TMP era nicely.
    Star-Trek-IV-The-Undiscovered-Country-Bridge-Crew-777x340.jpg

    and...
    ea_helmnav6.jpg

    These resemble the DSC bridges a lot. We've got large spaces, dark lighting, touchscreens, open areas, shaped furnishings, and that overall blue and black feel.

    And the Kelvin, Franklin, and NX. All feel to be from the same designers, the ones who would later condens them into the Intrepid, Sovereign, and Defiant bridges.

    It may only be a decade off from TOS but it's only two decades off from TMP and two away from the Kelvin and it's not a one episode flashback or a standalone film, it's a series designed to run the full seven series so it's got to fill in the timeframe by being more than a reference to the odd duck of the franchise (aesthetics wise).
    And, despite being a prequel....R1 kept the classic, 70's look to it....no big changes there, yo.

    Because they didn't need to be. Star Wars looks like our future and our present. Military tech now looks the same as it has since the 40s, 50s, or 60s. There's an illustrative post of this in the Galactic News section in the DSC expansion announcement thread. If you asked the US military to build you a kilometre long space battleship it'd probably look exactly like an Imperator Class. Star Wars isn't about cutting edge tech, it's about a stagnant universe where everything has looked the same since the days of the Old Republic.
    There's very few futuristic sci-fi designs. Mon Calamari, The Naboo, Umbara are the ones that spring to mind everything else looks like it rolled straight off a production line in Bristol.

    Star Trek dropped the 60s vision for the future as soon as it hit the big screen. Then they looked upon their work, thought on a bit then dropped the bland 70s vision of the future once they hit series 3 of TNG and TWoK and haven't looked back.

    Star Wars is stagnation, Star trek is exploration. Look at how often Starfleet changes their uniforms (ignore the last five that aren't the 29th century one, they're STO only). They went from looking like TOS to looking like TMP in about two years from Kirk returning.​​

    Another thing I love about Discovery actually - the consoles, and how they work, make sense to the viewer.


    Compare:

    9tfGKzc.jpg

    To
    x36TxkJ.jpg

    The DSC one simply makes more sense to US - the viewer. The buttons actually display their function. TOS and TNG's consoles were just a jumble of random colours and numbers that meant NOTHING to us as viewers.

    The USS Discovery's Captain's chair interface is the best example of this: 9AqcT0a.jpg

    3U3C0SJ.jpg

  • angrytargangrytarg Member Posts: 9,899 Arc User
    Often ridiculed, Trek forehead aliens have one massive advantage though: They have facial expressions and the actor can display emotion. The new Klingons are in the same category as Na'Kuhl, Hirogen or Remans: Wrinkly-faced bad guys. They more or less all look the same. L'Rell to me always looks like wearing a rubber mask. Wether she boinks Voq or gleefully rambles about their ideology her expression is the same, especially if she's wide-eyed. It does not help at all to make them believable. Point at plywood and facepaint all you want, I think it had more depth.
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    ^ Memory Alpha.org is not canon. It's a open wiki with arbitrary rules. Only what can be cited from an episode is. ^
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    "A filthy, mangy beast, but in its bony breast beat the heart of a warrior" - "faithful" (...) "but ever-ready to follow the call of the wild." - Martok, about a Targ
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  • talonxvtalonxv Member Posts: 4,241 Arc User
    > @artan42 said:
    > talonxv wrote: »
    >
    > I think a bigger problem I had conceptually with the Klingons, give then pale skin, replace the ridges with a big red element and what do you get instead?
    >
    > Na'Kul. They look way too much like the Na'kul. It was bugging me till I happened to see a mission with them in it and that's when it stuck me.
    >
    >
    >
    >
    > Well if you take away the forehead prosthetics and replace them with a new one then they might resemble the Na'kuhl but if you took away the rides from the TNG Klingons they'd look like humans because they didn't have any facial prosthetics at all.
    >
    > There's only so many things you can build around a human head and in Trek most of it's on the forehead.​​

    Tell that to Babylon 5. Who manager to make quite a few distinct races with humanoid heads.

    DSC can do better. They have a bigger budget.
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  • valoreahvaloreah Member Posts: 10,340 Arc User
    patrickngo wrote: »
    It's a problem of the whole, Val, not a single component part, but how the whole is assembled and delivered.

    Granted. However, I wouldn't say Discovery isn't doing what every other series before it did with regard to tie ins/name dropping.

    Dear Devs: I enjoyed the Legacy of Romulus expansion much more than the Delta Rising expansion. .
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  • mustrumridcully0mustrumridcully0 Member Posts: 12,637 Arc User
    patrickngo wrote: »
    valoreah wrote: »
    patrickngo wrote: »
    It's a problem of the whole, Val, not a single component part, but how the whole is assembled and delivered.

    Granted. However, I wouldn't say Discovery isn't doing what every other series before it did with regard to tie ins/name dropping.

    there's a sense of 'relying on it' with Discovery's namedrops that isn't there with TNG, though. I mean, they decided they needed the main character to be Spock's Long Lost Sister.

    there's a definite leaning on the heritage that doesn't occur with TNG, or Voyager, or DS-9 even (and Deep Space Nine literally MOVED a character from TNG).

    there's a kind of awkwardness to it-the show does everythign it can to be its own visually, but then the writers do all they can to undermine it-poorly, by filling scripts with reminders of how out of place the whole thing is.

    and it doesn't help that the parts that aren't nostalgia-wanking are poorly concieved, poorly written, poorly directed dren.

    Yo might be forgetting about one prominent and ever-present TNG name-drop: The ship in TNG is also called Enterprise. It has the same registry number even, except with a goofy letter added to it.
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  • valoreahvaloreah Member Posts: 10,340 Arc User
    edited July 2018
    patrickngo wrote: »
    there's a sense of 'relying on it' with Discovery's namedrops that isn't there with TNG, though.

    I honestly don't see any leaning on heritage more than any other series did.
    I mean, they decided they needed the main character to be Spock's Long Lost Sister.

    I don't see an issue with that to be honest.

    Spock never told anyone who his parents were prior to "Journey to Babel". Nor did he ever mention being engaged to T'Pring before "Amok Time". We never heard about Sybok until TFF. So all these personal family things Spock hid from or neglected to mention to his best friends - in some cases for decades.

    Personally, I feel adding her into the mix provided a lot of depth to Burnham, Spock and Sarek. Sarek's decision about which child to send into the VEF had consequences to them all, both personally and professionally and we get a much better understanding of where the rift between Sarek and Spock originated. It helps set up Burnham with the inner conflict of logic versus emotion and her relationship with Sarek and Amanda. Personally, I rather enjoyed this bit of characterization. I grant you there are other times when yes, the show is poorly written, but it is the first season. As we all know, Trek series tend to not really find their footing until the second or third season, if not longer.
    Dear Devs: I enjoyed the Legacy of Romulus expansion much more than the Delta Rising expansion. .
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  • angrytargangrytarg Member Posts: 9,899 Arc User
    valoreah wrote: »
    (...)
    Spock never told anyone who his parents were prior to "Journey to Babel". Nor did he ever mention being engaged to T'Pring before "Amok Time". We never heard about Sybok until TFF. So all these personal family things Spock hid from or neglected to mention to his best friends - in some cases for decades.

    (...)

    Yes, but out-of-universe it gets ridiculous. They just pile so much on the most famous name of the franchise, Spock at this point is The Doctor and Neo fused into one being, the whole universe just revolves around him...​​
    lFC4bt2.gif
    ^ Memory Alpha.org is not canon. It's a open wiki with arbitrary rules. Only what can be cited from an episode is. ^
    "No. Men do not roar. Women roar. Then they hurl heavy objects... and claw at you." -Worf, son of Mogh
    "A filthy, mangy beast, but in its bony breast beat the heart of a warrior" - "faithful" (...) "but ever-ready to follow the call of the wild." - Martok, about a Targ
    "That pig smelled horrid. A sweet-sour, extremely pungent odor. I showered and showered, and it took me a week to get rid of it!" - Robert Justman, appreciating Emmy-Lou
  • valoreahvaloreah Member Posts: 10,340 Arc User
    angrytarg wrote: »
    Yes, but out-of-universe it gets ridiculous. They just pile so much on the most famous name of the franchise, Spock at this point is The Doctor and Neo fused into one being, the whole universe just revolves around him...​​

    How is this different than most any other franchise?

    Dear Devs: I enjoyed the Legacy of Romulus expansion much more than the Delta Rising expansion. .
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  • angrytargangrytarg Member Posts: 9,899 Arc User
    valoreah wrote: »
    How is this different than most any other franchise?

    Is this a point that requires the useof whataboutism? It's just silly pig-2.gif​​
    lFC4bt2.gif
    ^ Memory Alpha.org is not canon. It's a open wiki with arbitrary rules. Only what can be cited from an episode is. ^
    "No. Men do not roar. Women roar. Then they hurl heavy objects... and claw at you." -Worf, son of Mogh
    "A filthy, mangy beast, but in its bony breast beat the heart of a warrior" - "faithful" (...) "but ever-ready to follow the call of the wild." - Martok, about a Targ
    "That pig smelled horrid. A sweet-sour, extremely pungent odor. I showered and showered, and it took me a week to get rid of it!" - Robert Justman, appreciating Emmy-Lou
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