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My problems with TRIBBLE

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  • valoreahvaloreah Member Posts: 10,221 Arc User
    patrickngo wrote: »
    5 minutes of doing teh captain's job would tell Jim Kirk who Spock's father was, and his mother, and any relations directly involved in Starfleet.

    LMAO! So now TOS is poorly written too? Come on.

    Dear Devs: I enjoyed the Legacy of Romulus expansion much more than the Delta Rising expansion. .
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  • ryan218ryan218 Member Posts: 34,419 Arc User
    valoreah wrote: »
    patrickngo wrote: »
    5 minutes of doing teh captain's job would tell Jim Kirk who Spock's father was, and his mother, and any relations directly involved in Starfleet.

    LMAO! So now TOS is poorly written too? Come on.

    To be fair, for the most part it was. But there were also a number of gems in TOS which were beautifully written/performed, such as Doomsday Machine, Trouble with Tribbles, and Balance of Terror.
  • valoreahvaloreah Member Posts: 10,221 Arc User
    ryan218 wrote: »
    To be fair, for the most part it was. But there were also a number of gems in TOS which were beautifully written/performed, such as Doomsday Machine, Trouble with Tribbles, and Balance of Terror.

    Well of course. "Turnabout Intruder" isn't exactly Trek at it's finest.

    I find it more amusing the lengths and mental gymnastics @patrickngo goes through in order to "prove" his points.



    Dear Devs: I enjoyed the Legacy of Romulus expansion much more than the Delta Rising expansion. .
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  • valoreahvaloreah Member Posts: 10,221 Arc User
    patrickngo wrote: »
    thing is, yes, much of TOS was badly written...but not all of it.

    Just the parts that contradict what the point you're trying to make. :wink:
    Dear Devs: I enjoyed the Legacy of Romulus expansion much more than the Delta Rising expansion. .
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  • markhawkmanmarkhawkman Member Posts: 34,121 Arc User
    ryan218 wrote: »
    valoreah wrote: »
    patrickngo wrote: »
    5 minutes of doing teh captain's job would tell Jim Kirk who Spock's father was, and his mother, and any relations directly involved in Starfleet.
    LMAO! So now TOS is poorly written too? Come on.
    To be fair, for the most part it was. But there were also a number of gems in TOS which were beautifully written/performed, such as Doomsday Machine, Trouble with Tribbles, and Balance of Terror.
    I would argue that those are better performed than written. They had some of the most lol wut ideas in TOS….
    patrickngo wrote: »
    thing is, yes, much of TOS was badly written...but not all of it.
    Um, I've no idea how you could possibly say that literally all of Discovery is badly written.
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  • valoreahvaloreah Member Posts: 10,221 Arc User
    Um, I've no idea how you could possibly say that literally all of Discovery is badly written.

    Because - despite utterly despising the show within the first 5 minutes of the pilot, patrick continued to watch every single episode.

    Dear Devs: I enjoyed the Legacy of Romulus expansion much more than the Delta Rising expansion. .
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  • starkaosstarkaos Member Posts: 10,927 Arc User
    patrickngo wrote: »
    valoreah wrote: »
    patrickngo wrote: »
    It's a problem of the whole, Val, not a single component part, but how the whole is assembled and delivered.

    Granted. However, I wouldn't say Discovery isn't doing what every other series before it did with regard to tie ins/name dropping.

    there's a sense of 'relying on it' with Discovery's namedrops that isn't there with TNG, though. I mean, they decided they needed the main character to be Spock's Long Lost Sister.

    there's a definite leaning on the heritage that doesn't occur with TNG, or Voyager, or DS-9 even (and Deep Space Nine literally MOVED a character from TNG).

    there's a kind of awkwardness to it-the show does everythign it can to be its own visually, but then the writers do all they can to undermine it-poorly, by filling scripts with reminders of how out of place the whole thing is.

    and it doesn't help that the parts that aren't nostalgia-wanking are poorly concieved, poorly written, poorly directed dren.

    TNG did have a slight lean on heritage with Spock, Bones, and Scotty making cameos. Bones even made an appearance in the first TNG episode.
  • markhawkmanmarkhawkman Member Posts: 34,121 Arc User
    starkaos wrote: »
    patrickngo wrote: »
    valoreah wrote: »
    patrickngo wrote: »
    It's a problem of the whole, Val, not a single component part, but how the whole is assembled and delivered.
    Granted. However, I wouldn't say Discovery isn't doing what every other series before it did with regard to tie ins/name dropping.
    there's a sense of 'relying on it' with Discovery's namedrops that isn't there with TNG, though. I mean, they decided they needed the main character to be Spock's Long Lost Sister.

    there's a definite leaning on the heritage that doesn't occur with TNG, or Voyager, or DS-9 even (and Deep Space Nine literally MOVED a character from TNG).

    there's a kind of awkwardness to it-the show does everythign it can to be its own visually, but then the writers do all they can to undermine it-poorly, by filling scripts with reminders of how out of place the whole thing is.

    and it doesn't help that the parts that aren't nostalgia-wanking are poorly concieved, poorly written, poorly directed dren.
    TNG did have a slight lean on heritage with Spock, Bones, and Scotty making cameos. Bones even made an appearance in the first TNG episode.
    Picard Mind-Melded with Sarek. There were also several TNG eps that seemed to be rehashed TOS plots.
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  • valoreahvaloreah Member Posts: 10,221 Arc User
    Some was, some wasn't.

    No doubt. I don't believe "Journey to Babel" or "Amok Time" are counted among the "worst of TOS" though....

    Dear Devs: I enjoyed the Legacy of Romulus expansion much more than the Delta Rising expansion. .
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  • markhawkmanmarkhawkman Member Posts: 34,121 Arc User
    valoreah wrote: »
    patrickngo wrote: »
    5 minutes of doing teh captain's job would tell Jim Kirk who Spock's father was, and his mother, and any relations directly involved in Starfleet.
    LMAO! So now TOS is poorly written too? Come on.
    Some was, some wasn't.
    "Spock's Brain" comes to mind as the worst of ST:TOS.
    ST:TNG also has some really bad episodes ("The Last Outpost" comes to mind. I hated how they portray the Ferengi).
    All of the Star Trek series had good and bad episodes in terms of writing.
    The problem with TRIBBLE is that many of us view the writing as MOSTLY poor for the entire first season, and the second season's premise of once again searching for Spock isn't helping.
    I think you're viewing the past with rose-tinted glasses if you think TOS actually had overall better writing.

    The thing with Spock's Brain is that the basic concept of the episode was GREAT, it had a few rather drastic shortcomings though. Such as awkward acting and how certain parts of the plot were kinda... lol wut? Vulcans don't need brains to live? that part could have been done differently and worked better. Like putting Spock's body in stasis while they find his brain... instead of having him walk around like a living robot. THAT was the dumb part of the episode. the idea that the Morgs had advanced tech and no idea how their own tech works is a classic sci-fi trope that becomes more reality and less sci-fi every year.
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  • artan42artan42 Member Posts: 10,242 Bug Hunter
    talonxv wrote: »
    Tell that to Babylon 5. Who manager to make quite a few distinct races with humanoid heads.

    DSC can do better. They have a bigger budget.

    I have not seen any of B5 beyond the first film and I recall the Narn had full face masks on to disguise the human head, the Centari had silly hair and the Mimbari had a silly crown of bone with tiny ears
    reyan01 wrote: »
    Another thing I love about Discovery actually - the consoles, and how they work, make sense to the viewer.

    Compare:

    *snip*

    To

    *snip*

    The DSC one simply makes more sense to US - the viewer. The buttons actually display their function. TOS and TNG's consoles were just a jumble of random colours and numbers that meant NOTHING to us as viewers.

    The USS Discovery's Captain's chair interface is the best example of this: *snip*

    It's an area that ENT fell down for me was it was back to being meaningless symbols only on buttons and not touch screens. Compare the picture you posted of the DSC control to the one on the Enterprise from ST:V, they're very similar, they have a actual keyboard type display laid around what are clearly power level indicators shaped like circles and each section is partitioned off from the rest.

    TOS, TNG, and ENT just have jumbles of buttons with no labels in no particular order in unergonomic layouts.
    valoreah wrote: »
    Well of course. "Turnabout Intruder" isn't exactly Trek at it's finest.

    I find it more amusing the lengths and mental gymnastics @patrickngo goes through in order to "prove" his points.

    You also need 'points' in quote marks and not just 'prove'. He's basically playing 'pin the tail on the donkey' with a blunderbuss waiting to see what he can make stick. It's that lack of coherence and utter randomness that made me put him on block.

    It got in the way of people with actual points I could have a blazing row with pig-2.gif.
    valoreah wrote: »
    Because - despite utterly despising the show within the first 5 minutes of the pilot, patrick continued to watch every single episode.

    I imagine having his teeth gritted so hard much have shut his eyes and blocked off his ear canals though as he dosn't seem to have picked much of it up.

    Still, if he did watch it then it's self inflicted pain and his own problem.​​
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    Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though.
    JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.

    #TASforSTO


    '...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
    'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
    'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
    '...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
    'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
    '...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek

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  • talonxvtalonxv Member Posts: 4,241 Arc User
    > @artan42 said:
    > talonxv wrote: »
    >
    > Tell that to Babylon 5. Who manager to make quite a few distinct races with humanoid heads.
    >
    > DSC can do better. They have a bigger budget.
    >
    >
    >
    >
    > I have not seen any of B5 beyond the first film and I recall the Narn had full face masks on to disguise the human head, the Centari had silly hair and the Mimbari had a silly crown of bone with tiny ears
    > reyan01 wrote: »
    >
    > Another thing I love about Discovery actually - the consoles, and how they work, make sense to the viewer.
    >
    > Compare:
    >
    > *snip*
    >
    > To
    >
    > *snip*
    >
    > The DSC one simply makes more sense to US - the viewer. The buttons actually display their function. TOS and TNG's consoles were just a jumble of random colours and numbers that meant NOTHING to us as viewers.
    >
    > The USS Discovery's Captain's chair interface is the best example of this: *snip*
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    > It's an area that ENT fell down for me was it was back to being meaningless symbols only on buttons and not touch screens. Compare the picture you posted of the DSC control to the one on the Enterprise from ST:V, they're very similar, they have a actual keyboard type display laid around what are clearly power level indicators shaped like circles and each section is partitioned off from the rest.
    >
    > TOS, TNG, and ENT just have jumbles of buttons with no labels in no particular order in unergonomic layouts.
    > valoreah wrote: »
    >
    > Well of course. "Turnabout Intruder" isn't exactly Trek at it's finest.
    >
    > I find it more amusing the lengths and mental gymnastics @patrickngo goes through in order to "prove" his points.
    >
    >
    >
    >
    > You also need 'points' in quote marks and not just 'prove'. He's basically playing 'pin the tail on the donkey' with a blunderbuss waiting to see what he can make stick. It's that lack of coherence and utter randomness that made me put him on block.
    >
    > It got in the way of people with actual points I could have a blazing row with .
    > valoreah wrote: »
    >
    > Because - despite utterly despising the show within the first 5 minutes of the pilot, patrick continued to watch every single episode.
    >
    >
    >
    >
    > I imagine having his teeth gritted so hard much have shut his eyes and blocked off his ear canals though as he dosn't seem to have picked much of it up.
    >
    > Still, if he did watch it then it's self inflicted pain and his own problem.​​

    If you like DS9 and other Sci-fi give B5 a chance. And thats the thing. You're telling me with Trek they can't do the minds of things B5 did with an even bigger budget? Come on!

    That's just plain lazy and we both know it.

    Now granted the Mimbari and Centuari were a bit lazy, but some of the otjer designs like the Narn and a few other aligned races, were quite ingenious.

    Sad that we don't have that level anymore. However saw a video by Lore Reloaded on YouTube. Guy is a bit out there on some of his stuff, but he made this video on what he would of done given the writing which makes far more sense than what we got.




    Just something like that^ would of been far more interesting.
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  • markhawkmanmarkhawkman Member Posts: 34,121 Arc User
    valoreah wrote: »
    patrickngo wrote: »
    5 minutes of doing teh captain's job would tell Jim Kirk who Spock's father was, and his mother, and any relations directly involved in Starfleet.
    LMAO! So now TOS is poorly written too? Come on.
    Some was, some wasn't.
    "Spock's Brain" comes to mind as the worst of ST:TOS.
    ST:TNG also has some really bad episodes ("The Last Outpost" comes to mind. I hated how they portray the Ferengi).
    All of the Star Trek series had good and bad episodes in terms of writing.
    The problem with TRIBBLE is that many of us view the writing as MOSTLY poor for the entire first season, and the second season's premise of once again searching for Spock isn't helping.
    I think you're viewing the past with rose-tinted glasses if you think TOS actually had overall better writing.

    The thing with Spock's Brain is that the basic concept of the episode was GREAT, it had a few rather drastic shortcomings though. Such as awkward acting and how certain parts of the plot were kinda... lol wut? Vulcans don't need brains to live? that part could have been done differently and worked better. Like putting Spock's body in stasis while they find his brain... instead of having him walk around like a living robot. THAT was the dumb part of the episode. the idea that the Morgs had advanced tech and no idea how their own tech works is a classic sci-fi trope that becomes more reality and less sci-fi every year.
    The plot, ideas, and execution, dialogue, character interaction, and overall writing of ST:TOS is much better than TRIBBLE in my opinion. Star Trek: The Original Series had experienced authors writing some of the episodes (Dorothy Fontana being among the best). TRIBBLE does not. Also, ST:TOS was starting from scratch, it didn't have 50-years of material to draw upon. TRIBBLE does and that is a big negative for it considering how much nostalgia it is relying on (Mudd, Spock, Sarek, the Enterprise, Pike, etc.). ST:TOS--no matter how bad the writing--stood on its own. TRIBBLE isn't in the opinion of many of us.
    That sounds like you're not judging them by the same standard.
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  • markhawkmanmarkhawkman Member Posts: 34,121 Arc User
    That sounds like you're not judging them by the same standard.
    I'm not. I judging them fairly. ST:TOS had no Star Trek before it came out and it stood on its own two feet. TRIBBLE has 50-years of material and it cannot in my opinion. In other words, it was hard for ST:TOS to build the foundation of Star Trek, while it SHOULD be easy for TRIBBLE to stand on its own and create a new series. The reasons it cannot is that it is trying to metaphorically re-invent the wheel.
    So you see it as fair to expect more of one than the other?

    Truthfully, I personally think half of TOS is functionally non-canon due to being extensively retconned by later works, sometimes stuff in TOS. Yeah, TOS had a lot of trouble actually making a coherent universe. Discovery is a lot more consistent.
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  • ryan218ryan218 Member Posts: 34,419 Arc User
    The thing is that TOS was inconsistently bad with several great, classic episodes in it. DSC is, IMO, consistently average. None of them are particularly good except Mudd's episode, but none are particularly bad either.

    To be clear, this is a criticism as much as a praise. I'm giving DSC some slack for first season performance, but CBS need to up the production quality for the next Season IMO. This is one reason I'm not too worried about Kurtzman (or is it Orci?) being brought in. He has more experience in Star Trek productions.
  • artan42artan42 Member Posts: 10,242 Bug Hunter
    talonxv wrote: »
    If you like DS9 and other Sci-fi give B5 a chance.

    I have done. I quite enjoyed the film but the first series was not very much like it. I might pick it up gain at some point.
    talonxv wrote: »
    And thats the thing. You're telling me with Trek they can't do the minds of things B5 did with an even bigger budget? Come on!

    That's just plain lazy and we both know it.

    That's not what I'm telling you. What I'm telling you is that at the end of the day the overwhelming majority of aliens are humans with silly things stuck on their heads. It's for budget reasons, not just because it's cheap to do but also because with a lick of paint they can make another dozen aliens out of the same pieces and also for empathy. If they all looked like bugs they wouldn't have the same impact.
    talonxv wrote: »
    Now granted the Mimbari and Centuari were a bit lazy, but some of the otjer designs like the Narn and a few other aligned races, were quite ingenious.

    From what I've seen of B5 the effects are all basic 3D animation and the sets are very basic so I assume they put their money into the makeup and costuming. DSC has balanced itself. The Klingons may look 'off' but they're still finished to a high standard. Those ceremonial EV suits must have cost a fortune and look stunning.

    Models and environments take budget to render as well and you can't just hang a model on a string on a black sheet with LEDs behind it anymore. Star TRek has a higher budget now, but they have to do more with it.
    talonxv wrote: »
    but he made this video on what he would of done given the writing which makes far more sense than what we got.

    Look man, I've pointed it out before but it just bugs me. It's would 'have' not would 'of'. The 'V' sound in would've is due to the abbreviation of the 'have' into its second syllable.​​
    22762792376_ac7c992b7c_o.png
    Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though.
    JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.

    #TASforSTO


    '...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
    'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
    'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
    '...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
    'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
    '...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek

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  • starkaosstarkaos Member Posts: 10,927 Arc User
    artan42 wrote: »
    talonxv wrote: »
    If you like DS9 and other Sci-fi give B5 a chance.

    I have done. I quite enjoyed the film but the first series was not very much like it. I might pick it up gain at some point.
    ​​

    There are some good episodes in Season 1, but Season 1 and Season 5 are probably the worst seasons of the series. G'Kar, Londo, Garibaldi, Bester, and Ivanova are the best characters in the series with Vir and Sheridan having some good moments.
  • jonsillsjonsills Member Posts: 8,585 Arc User
    starkaos wrote: »
    artan42 wrote: »
    talonxv wrote: »
    If you like DS9 and other Sci-fi give B5 a chance.

    I have done. I quite enjoyed the film but the first series was not very much like it. I might pick it up gain at some point.
    ​​

    There are some good episodes in Season 1, but Season 1 and Season 5 are probably the worst seasons of the series. G'Kar, Londo, Garibaldi, Bester, and Ivanova are the best characters in the series with Vir and Sheridan having some good moments.
    And the issue with season 5 was that it was planned out as a five-year series, but the network told Straczynski that the show would be cancelled at the end of season 4, so he tried to rush and get all his plot points in before the end. Then, after filming on the last episode had wrapped, he was notified that they'd been renewed for season 5.
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  • valoreahvaloreah Member Posts: 10,221 Arc User
    patrickngo wrote: »
    See, in serialized format, your actions have consequences.

    Burnham attempting mutiny had consequences. Sarek choosing Spock over Burnham definitely had consequences - which we know are very long lasting. Stamets plugging himself into the spore drive had consequences. Quite clear saving Emporer Giorgiou will have many consequences.



    Dear Devs: I enjoyed the Legacy of Romulus expansion much more than the Delta Rising expansion. .
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  • valoreahvaloreah Member Posts: 10,221 Arc User
    edited August 2018
    patrickngo wrote: »
    yes, Burnham's mutiny had consequences-she got a promotion after a short period of internment. Stamets becomes a demigod, so sure, that's 'consequences', and it's highly unclear if Georgiou's continued existence has any consequences at all whatsoever.

    Hmmm....

    I seem to recall something of a famous Starfleet Captain who received a commendation rather than admonishment and expulsion for deliberately cheating on the final exam at Starfleet Academy....

    I also seem to recall other officers, such as Gary Mitchell, William Riker and Reginald Barclay (to name a few) being given god-like levels of abilities....

    What exactly makes them any different? Other than you just don't like Discovery?

    And since Michelle Yeoh is confirmed to be in season 2, I believe chances are pretty good we'll see the ramifications of Burnham and co. letting her go at the end of season 1.
    Dear Devs: I enjoyed the Legacy of Romulus expansion much more than the Delta Rising expansion. .
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