Well, Azrael, I would love to hear about your successful Hive Elite or Storming the Spire Elite runs and how you just "melted stuff" in there, if nothing is unbeatable for you. Also, you were one of those who claimed there is nothing wrong with player activity, so why not just pug those?
Really?! 'people on the lower end' din't use subsystem power and a Leech?! And the 30% BFAW dmg nerf somehow magically skipped the lower end players, right?! I suppose they never used GW either, no?! And they didn't use exploders to beef up their already poor DPS a bit?!
Riiight.
Yes, right. At least judging from my experience with players from the fleets I'm in. There are the regulars who really know about builds, yes, but quite a few who can hold their own don't do what you're listing.
I will give you BFAW, I don't think I've seen a beam build without it. I will give you GW, although it is more often than not just a purple cloud in the sky due to no skill points invested or other factors supporting it.
But subsystem power? You can still tell a sizeable proportion of the playerbase that you can change allocation to the subsystems to start with and that having 125 weapon or aux is a different game from 50+.
Plasmonic Leech? Many players use the standard consoles, those that drop. Maybe upgraded. Nothing fancy like fleet gear or rep gear. Okay, sometimes one or two of those, if you can be bothered to get the extra elite marks beyond your starting 5 or so you get from completing a rep - if you did that to begin with. But certainly not a console you don't come across during normal gameplay - Feds and Roms need to go to the exchange and know that it exists, KDF needs to buy a low tier ship which normally nobody does. I'll venture the guess that way less than half of the player base use(d) it, and I don't mean for the reason that it has no place in their build. Exploders? What are these?
And 50+k "at the low end" is probably a sign of people around you being better than average. Way better actually. Yes, people will have 5 to 6 times your output. But those are few and far between, way more will have a fifth or sixth of your performance. And while looking to those who can do stuff is great for learning, it is not working as well for judging how players will be affected by this change.
Now you can easily say these players need to up their game. And they can do so, often times 5 minutes in fleet chat can make a huge difference for them. But they first need to find somebody who tells them, and before that they may need to ask - not everybody goes to wikis or similar but likes to find out themselves as much as they can. And the moment a thing like the leech comes in, also it starts getting an investment, which many will think twice about. And yes, you can make a perfectly viable build from those drops, but then you get drowned in possibilities and different effects and procs which may sound good in the tooltip but don't really help you. And there's a lot of possibilities out there, finding the good ones is difficult. So they won't reach 50k.
And these players will feel way less effects from this change. And I have no numbers, but I'm betting they're the majority. Possibly even in advanced queues, almost certainly in standard ones.
My mother was an epohh and my father smelled of tulaberries
Really?! 'people on the lower end' din't use subsystem power and a Leech?! And the 30% BFAW dmg nerf somehow magically skipped the lower end players, right?! I suppose they never used GW either, no?! And they didn't use exploders to beef up their already poor DPS a bit?!
Riiight.
But subsystem power? You can still tell a sizeable proportion of the playerbase that you can change allocation to the subsystems to start with and that having 125 weapon or aux is a different game from 50+.
Subsystem power is a thing, yes; especially on my Rom alt. I'm what you'd call semi-space rich, so I have all the goodies, including Lobi ship Traits like Supremacy, without which your power management really falls apart.
Plasmonic Leech? Many players use the standard consoles, those that drop. Maybe upgraded. Nothing fancy like fleet gear or rep gear. Okay, sometimes one or two of those, if you can be bothered to get the extra elite marks beyond your starting 5 or so you get from completing a rep - if you did that to begin with. But certainly not a console you don't come across during normal gameplay - Feds and Roms need to go to the exchange and know that it exists, KDF needs to buy a low tier ship which normally nobody does. I'll venture the guess that way less than half of the player base use(d) it,
According to Bort, almost everyone used it (which he used as a rationale to nerf it).
Exploders? What are these?
'Exploders' are what ppl lovingly called the Science Plasma consoles; those be utterly dead now.
And 50+k "at the low end" is probably a sign of people around you being better than average. Way better actually. Yes, people will have 5 to 6 times your output. But those are few and far between, way more will have a fifth or sixth of your performance. And while looking to those who can do stuff is great for learning, it is not working as well for judging how players will be affected by this change.
The 30k channel is the DPS League's lowest Tier (20k no longer exist). So, from that perspective, 30k is really entry-level, as it were. Maybe I slightly exaggerated, saying 50k is on the low end too; but only to underline that doing 50k is nothing special really. In DPS circles, 50k just means "You don't necessarily totally suck."
Now you can easily say these players need to up their game. And they can do so, often times 5 minutes in fleet chat can make a huge difference for them. But they first need to find somebody who tells them, and before that they may need to ask - not everybody goes to wikis or similar but likes to find out themselves as much as they can. And the moment a thing like the leech comes in, also it starts getting an investment, which many will think twice about. And yes, you can make a perfectly viable build from those drops, but then you get drowned in possibilities and different effects and procs which may sound good in the tooltip but don't really help you. And there's a lot of possibilities out there, finding the good ones is difficult. So they won't reach 50k.
When I was still a n00b (some would argue I still am :P), I recall flying my brand-new Orb Weaver, without doffs even, and I *hope* with some boff abilities, LOL. So, I was in a queue, and someone, afterwards, said I had to learn a lot, and not just fight 'normally.' So, I got all smart-alecky, and responded "Is there something abnormal about the way I fight now?!" Yeah, that didn't go well, but I nonetheless decided that day, that yeah, maybe I really needed to L2P a bit (if for nothing else, because I felt bad for my team mates).
So, like tunebreaker says, we kinda have to work from the premiss that people are willing to learn. Otherwise, yeah, you'd get into the below-10k strata (or the AFK-ers).
The 30k channel is the DPS League's lowest Tier (20k no longer exist). So, from that perspective, 30k is really entry-level, as it were. Maybe I slightly exaggerated, saying 50k is on the low end too; but only to underline that doing 50k is nothing special really. In DPS circles, 50k just means "You don't necessarily totally suck."
I am pretty sure DPS-10k still exists.
And while I wouldn't necessarily agree that 50k is *low-end*, it is certainly entry-level for STO's elite content.
Especially stuff related to overcapping, which was not only something the game suggested didn't even exist, but also turns out to have been a bug and not intended to work that way.
Overcapping is a player invented term, which is probably why the game never references it anywhere. It's mechanics (until my lengthy chats with Spartan and hours upon hours of testing and video rewatching on the topic) were largely guess work based on some observations until I made some posts on r/stobuilds (that I can't seam to get right moving them over here), and even then it's not to the level of explination that I want.
Furthermore, trying to explain the full EPS system to a brand new player would be pretty overwhelming (which speaks to both players not willing to want to learn or even able as it is a fairly complex idea, but the people who do well in 'DPS Terms' look into these kinds of systems to try and improve their performance, and to do that could seam largely un-fun or un-wanted to a large portion of people).
--- @alcaatraz || I make tanks and do maths stuffs ---
Spreadsheets Online... Only second to Space Barbie eh Jayiie?
Space Barbie is getting a bit too expensive for me
[Edit]: On a more serious note, a word on tanks.
It's been my Experiance that in order to make a proper tank in S13 (like actually take aggro, not just survive which is the commonly accepted idea of 'tanking') you need many many fine adjustments to get your ship to a point where you have enough damage to take aggro off high DPS players and also have enough healing to survive. Changing either of these aspects results in a null-and-void result, since more damage turns you into a DPS ship and more healing makes you into a turtle. The end result is a very static setup that doesn't change, nor can change. I found one ship to be the best, and it's the only one which actually works for me as a tank. All the other ships I have that I want to fly I can't because my playstyle of trying and enjoying building tanks doesn't work properly anymore.
Threat (and largely threat with pets such as GW, SSV, and hanger pets) has been largely forgotten in S13, seeing as one of four (three if you're not in a cruiser with Attract Fire) ways to increase threatscale has largely become non-relevant, and I dare say useless outside of the science skill value boost (which means that res lab consoles will now trump them, and in fact do trump them). Removing my only Plasma Amplifier actually netted me more aggro since I got higher damage without it by replacing it with a res lab console; this should be the complete opposite of what it's supposed to do, which is increase your threat.
Basically, my 'fun' was wrong, and I have been told that my observations in this matter aren't real and valid.
--- @alcaatraz || I make tanks and do maths stuffs ---
@markhawkman Seriously, you basically said that only people who read guides posted to the internet are actually trying to play the game well... yeah, great job demonstrating why a lot of people think of the DPS leagues as being run by el@markhawkman
Then a lot of people are utterly mistaken. DPS channels are a great service to the community which not only enables you to team up with players equal to your performance but also to acquire knowledge fast. You have no idea how many countless hours of effort owners and admins of those channels put into their community to help them better understand the game and how stuff works. When reading your post I can’t help but feel fortunate. Not even three years ago I was full of skepticism towards DPSers as well! Tell you what: I set aside my prejudice, learned, supported and nowadays am honored to help Felisean to set new DPS and speed records. He is one of the most helpful, enthusiastic and talented player I got to know in over 5 years of STO. He shares it all, for free; just like the OP does in the TSC.
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Yeah, it's really silly to read how some ppl still think DPSers were relying on *broken* mechanics and exploits to do their numbers. Shows how clueless that part of playerbase is.
well for many out there bfaw is the most broken skill/mechanic in the game :P
and oh boy cooldown reduction to have better uptime for it? CHEATS AND HAXES!
jokes aside as for my limited knowledge about how these people were getting their dps they were using tricks that are unknown and may seem broken for average joe/someone whithout knowledge how it works - and also if someone lurked on forums long enought before s13 he would notice a trend of opinion over here that faw is broken and required being stoped to the ground with nerfhammer
well actually probably pretty big chunk of those claims you find silly may be adressed solely toward B:FaW and stuff meant to increase it's uptime....
The guy who held highest DPS record for quite a long time has one video series that lasts for 6h where he explains various mechanics behind DPS and how he does those numbers, and another one lasting 10h from same guy. Also there are various other sources where other people explain how *they* do their runs and numbers.
All high DPS runs have parser logs that everyone can access (provided they have a parser installed), and most have videos showing the run where they did their record (many of those also got posted to forums).
I wouldn't call that "unknown knowledge", more like lazy players who can't **** themselves to check stuff up and learn a bit.
for some reason your post is much longer in a quote than it is displayed in the forum.....
please listen to yourself here a bit.
a dude needed 6 hours to explain properly mechanics behind his numbers.....
6! HOURS!
and you expect everyone to sit throught those 6 hours?
for average joey it is "unknown knowledge", deal with it - you cannot expect people to sit throught full 6 hours of YT vids to play the game and just blatantly call them out "lazy players who can't **** themselves to check stuff up" for not doing so - and if you tried to actually force them to watch these before playing? well the game would be actually dead right now.
on the case of S13 rebalancing though I have put some second thoughts into the matter and I think that thing that is backfiring most is that cryptic decided to bunch all of it into single release [due to either impatience or idea that they can pump enought hype for "balanced" game to compensate for a hit?] while they could just as well split those changes into small packages released over time every update of even every second one - in which case over tiem they would reach the same spot in terms of balancing - but without people being so upset about their toys being nerfed so much.....
You are not required to sit through whole 6h to become good, anywhere near semi-decent in fact. As I said before, you can become "good enough" without watching any guides, that 6+10h video material is there to guide people very deep into the game and make it easier for them to grab first places on DPS leaderboards. The reason I brought that particular videoseries up is that to my knowledge, it is the most detailed guide out there and prepares people the best for chasing DPS highscores.
If that isn't your thing, no one is forcing you to watch those videos and you have a right not to care, but the information *is* there if people are interested. Furthermore, there are shorter videoguides (obviously going less into detail, but still very useful), as well as many written guides in r/stobuilds.
You are not required to sit through whole 6h to become good, anywhere near semi-decent in fact. As I said before, you can become "good enough" without watching any guides, that 6+10h video material is there to guide people very deep into the game and make it easier for them to grab first places on DPS leaderboards. The reason I brought that particular videoseries up is that to my knowledge, it is the most detailed guide out there and prepares people the best for chasing DPS highscores.
If that isn't your thing, no one is forcing you to watch those videos and you have a right not to care, but the information *is* there if people are interested. Furthermore, there are shorter videoguides (obviously going less into detail, but still very useful), as well as many written guides in r/stobuilds.
well the point was the line of contradiction in tune's argumentation - either he expects everyoen to sit throught it or have someone explaining it to them in shorter frame of time or spend time "rediscovering" it on their own - or he accept that it is not a common knowledge.
in which [latter] case he has no right making fun of people who got wrong idea when seeing stuff happen without knowledge [and/or time dedicated to purpsue said knowledge] to fully understand all stuff that made this happen [his post about silly comments on exploits and broken mechanics] nor he has right to call people lazy for not knowing things
while they could just as well split those changes into small packages released over time every update of even every second one - in which case over tiem they would reach the same spot in terms of balancing - but without people being so upset about their toys being nerfed so much.....
I thought about that initially then I realized just from my own behavior during that time that it would probably not have worked out well for Cryptic had they released the balance pass in piecemeal.
When news first came out of a ground balance pass, I immediately stopped spending in the game. Everything from Dilithium to EC and Zen. I stopped because once I heard of the ground balance pass, I knew space wasn't going to be far behind. I have not spent anything since then until now because I am waiting to see if things truly settled down. I do not want to spend on anything that may be re-adjusted just a few weeks/months later. I have not even bothered to adjust and rebuild my alts now as well because of that.
If I thought about doing that, I wonder how many other players did the same.
Now if Cryptic had decided to release the balance pass in piecemeal, that period of non-spending will probably go longer for me and many others. There is also the possibility that those who try to adapt as the balance process went on would get burnt out with the constant changes taking place.
I think Cryptic did well by dumping a huge lump of changes in one go in this case.
You are not required to sit through whole 6h to become good, anywhere near semi-decent in fact. As I said before, you can become "good enough" without watching any guides, that 6+10h video material is there to guide people very deep into the game and make it easier for them to grab first places on DPS leaderboards. The reason I brought that particular videoseries up is that to my knowledge, it is the most detailed guide out there and prepares people the best for chasing DPS highscores.
If that isn't your thing, no one is forcing you to watch those videos and you have a right not to care, but the information *is* there if people are interested. Furthermore, there are shorter videoguides (obviously going less into detail, but still very useful), as well as many written guides in r/stobuilds.
well the point was the line of contradiction in tune's argumentation - either he expects everyoen to sit throught it or have someone explaining it to them in shorter frame of time or spend time "rediscovering" it on their own - or he accept that it is not a common knowledge.
in which [latter] case he has no right making fun of people who got wrong idea when seeing stuff happen without knowledge [and/or time dedicated to purpsue said knowledge] to fully understand all stuff that made this happen [his post about silly comments on exploits and broken mechanics] nor he has right to call people lazy for not knowing things
I didn't use word combination "common knowledge" anywhere in my original post. And I don't expect anyone to sit through anything. My main point was people have the resources where from they can learn (some of them explaining stuff very thoroughly), if they *want* to chase high DPS numbers and don't want to figure hard stuff out. If they don't, everything basic is available from game.
I don't really give a damn what they were relying on to get the results, the fact is, they were putting out more damage, on an individual basis, than a map needed, and as a result, when going into random pugs or battlesones, melting everything before others could even get a piece of the action! Is that fair? Is that sportsman-like conduct? Or is that just being a show-off waving an epeen around? *snip*
Because a bunch of DPS Meisters couldn't keep from showing off their toys to the point that enough people started complaining about it that the devs did something about it.
Bravo, DPS epeens, bravo
*Slow Clapping*
What makes you think we were "showing off"?
You might not like being told this, but if someone is using a DPS build in a standard Red Alert pug or battlezone; it's showing off.
but just because your ships couldn't keep up with ours as damage went, was it really fair to blast us for learning how to get that kind of performance from our ships?
Wrong question, and victim mentality, which misses the issue people have with DPS Meisters.
Was it really fair to nerf our builds and adjust our damage
Yes. Because in some instances, that DPS output should not have been possible to achieve, because ome of it was achieved by exploitation of broken game-mechanics. Was it fair to nerf everyone? Not by a long shot.
just because we bothered to learn how to push our ships to the limits (and often break those limits)?
The option to push the ships to and beyond the limits, should not have been possible. That you 'bothered to do so', doesn't impact the situation.
I know how to both process cocaine from extract to powder, and how to cook meth. Is it fair that the police would arrest me for cooking, and selling what I learned to cook, to people who want to buy it? Although what DPS Meisters do isn't illegal, the principle is still the same. What you're protesting, would be the same as me protesting "I learned how to make coke and cook meth; You have to let me cook up and sell it!"
You ask about sportsmanlike conduct. You ask about others "wanting a piece of the action". Well then let me ask you this. Was it sportsmanlike of those people to just complain
Yes. Complaint to the umpire is allowed in any sporting event. Especially so when one player is using a performance enhancement which gives them an advantage over the other player.
instead of learn how we did what we did and learn how to get similar performance from both themselves and their ships? If they wanted a "piece of the action" so badly, why not beat us at our own game?
Because your game isn't the game they want to play. They want to play the game Cryptic is offering: Choose a ship, choose a crew, choose your weapons, choose a mission and Blow Stuff Up.
Why not build up themselves and their ships and steal the show back from us?
Because that's not what playing Star Trek Online requires.
Someone may lack the time or resources to 'build themself up' as you put it. That one Borg Red Alert, might be all the time their schedule allows them to play. And you and your crew ruined it for them, by melting everything on the map before they could get to it. Do you seriously think that someone under those kind of constraints is even going to want to keep squandering their log-in time by being rendered obsolete? Let alone take the time and effort to 'build themself up' or even learn how to?? Are you (as a group, not you personally) that oblivious to the feelings of others that you can't grasp that possibility?
Choose a ship, choose a crew, choose your weapons, choose a mission and Blow Stuff Up.
That, is all the game requires a player to do. It is also, all a player may want to do. Even if a player has the resources to do a DPS MegaBuild, that doesn't translate to them actually wanting to do so, when it's not what the game requires them to do.
You (and the other DPS Meisters) are laboring under the false assumption that because there is a higher level of play achievable, that everyone else either wants to, or should, pursue that goal. Finding a way to play a game in GodMode, doesn't oblige others to use the same method when playing. Since tunebreaker appears unwilling to address my question about my main build, I'll pose it to you as well: Out of idle curiousity, where would you place the following build on the DPS scale?
7xMk XII vr Polaron turrets @ 132(estimated) DPS per turret.
Wide-Angle Quantum Torpedo launcher, firing with Spread II. @ 416.4(estimated DPS)
Temporal Disentanglement Suite doing +0-2.5% Critical Chance. +0-10% Critical Severity.
Assimilated module doing +0.92% Critical Chance. +9.2% Critical Severity.
Chronometric Capacitor +20% Polaron Damage.
Red Matter Capacitor doing +25 All Power Settings for 20 sec
1xMk XII vr Polaron Phase Modulator @ +??%
Solanae Impluse Engine doing +3.8 Weapon Power Setting
You see, that does, or rather did (before the rebalance) cope perfectly adequately with both regular missions, and Red Alerts. It was working the way I wanted, and there was no need for that to change. I don't even care about DPS, but the rebalance still affected me as well, even if not in the same way.
Most DPS players don't blatantly and publicly "show off". And those that do are usually on the lower end of the scale,
I don't care what end of the scale they're at. You're still acknowledging that there are DPS players who show off. That's all that needs to be said. Even if it's only one DPSer going into Red Alert pug runs, they're still ruining the experience for three other people.
They only care about pushing the limits, making their ships do even more damage.
And I have no issue with that, so long as it remains contained in private queues or mission plays. Want to go into a random public instance, take an appropriately levelled ship.
If they went into an instance and melted everything in sight, it wasn't to make others look weak or to show off their ship, it was to test a build, see if an adjustment worked, see if they could change something to make it better.
Why they went into the instance and melted everything, is irrelevant. That they went into a public pug at all, is the issue. What might have only been a test run for the DPS Meister, may have been another player's only opportunity that their schedule allows. The only chance they get, and it gets ruined for them. So once again, where's the sportsmanlike conduct in that?
If someone wants to test a build, then they can replay any of the many missions which will give a space battle. There is simply No Need to take a DPS MegaBuild into an anonymous pug. There's an old saying: The right tool, for the right job.
The average player may not have the time or the inclination to find out how to do more DPS. They may not have the resources to fund the build. What they're doing, may be all they can do. And they should be able to do that, without fear of being made redundant in a pug, of not being able to hit anything before it gets blown up, or even worse, have someone else swoop in and steal their kill from them.
For example, Usain Bolt, wouldn't enter a kid's school sports day, and leave the others in his smoke. David Beckham wouldn't enter a pub's five-a-side match, run around hogging the ball, calling the other players a bunch of losers, and then stand around afterwards and tell everyone else that they need to up their game; That just because he was able to become SuperAwesome, they can/must too. A good sportsman simply doesn't conduct himself like that.
Is the point becoming clearer?
You're running under a very very false assumption that we're all a bunch of power hungry douchebags who want everyone else to look bad.
You're dead wrong.
And you're missing the point that, just because you're not all trying to make others look bad, it doesn't mean that it's not still effing up someone else's gameplay experience, and it doesn't mean that your collective actions, weren't responsible for the nerf which has chopped everyone off at the knees. As with everything in life, it's the idiots who ruin it for everyone else.
"I fight for the Users!" - Tron
"I was here before you, I will be here after you are gone. I am here, regardless of your acknowledgement or acceptance..." - The Truth
I'd much rather the advanced-tier queue content required items like say, simultaneous objectives or clever positioning or use of items on the field rather than an optimization race between health and damage. While better damage gear certainly would help, it would give people still building up a better chance to participate.
Fate - protects fools, small children, and ships named Enterprise Will Riker
Member Access Denied Armada!
My forum single-issue of rage: Make the Proton Experimental Weapon go for subsystem targetting!
Grinding out ship masteries is pretty much the only occasion I bother with RAs. How much DPS may I bring, or rather how slow do I have to be in order not being considered a show off by you? Perhaps I should not do it altogether and play Argala instead? Would that be ok by you?
As far as the rest of your post is concerned. You really bring me in a mood to hop into my Scim and pug a few ISA again.
Thanks man, I needed that!
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Grinding out ship masteries is pretty much the only occasion I bother with RAs. How much DPS may I bring, or rather how slow do I have to be in order not being considered a show of by you? Perhaps I should not do it altogether and play Argala instead? Would that be ok by you?
Oh, woeth me fake-humble
"I fight for the Users!" - Tron
"I was here before you, I will be here after you are gone. I am here, regardless of your acknowledgement or acceptance..." - The Truth
They want to play the game Cryptic is offering: Choose a ship, choose a crew, choose your weapons, choose a mission and Blow Stuff Up.
Isn't that exactly what DPS'ers are doing? They chose a ship, they chose the crew they want in their ship, they chose their weapon types and took a mission to blow stuff up.
That they went into a public pug at all, is the issue.
It's also safe to say that a large reason for the empty queues right now is that DPS'ers (if they are still playing) no longer PUG. Prior to S13, the meta was threat-tanking, so the best way for a DPS'er to get good numbers is to PUG. Teaming up with other DPS'ers only meant threat was diluted, so they could not get the most out of FBP builds.
The rebalance made most of the current DPS builds perform badly in PUGs. The only ones that I see in a PUG are there to test their survivability. Those that want to set records do so in private groups.
It's funny though... Since everyone in this game is a DPS'er. Whether they admit it or not. Until we get STFs where you can heal an enemy to death or simply survive a timer under heavy fire to win, everyone uses DPS to win. All STFs require you to kill something, and the only way to do that is to output damage. And guess what the "D" in DPS stands for? It's just that some have a lot, while some have less in space than some ground toons.
It's funny though... Since everyone in this game is a DPS'er. Whether they admit it or not. Until we get STFs where you can heal an enemy to death or simply survive a timer under heavy fire to win, everyone uses DPS to win. All STFs require you to kill something, and the only way to do that is to output damage.
I'm sure many people don't like you saying that... but it's absolutely true.
It's funny though... Since everyone in this game is a DPS'er. Whether they admit it or not. Until we get STFs where you can heal an enemy to death or simply survive a timer under heavy fire to win, everyone uses DPS to win. All STFs require you to kill something, and the only way to do that is to output damage. And guess what the "D" in DPS stands for? It's just that some have a lot, while some have less in space than some ground toons.
Spot on sir.
Hello rubber banding my old friend, time to bounce around the battlezone again, where are all my bug reports going?, out of love with this game I am falling, As Cryptic fail to acknowledge a problem exists, Shakes an angry fist, And from Support all I'm hearing are the sounds of silence.
They want to play the game Cryptic is offering: Choose a ship, choose a crew, choose your weapons, choose a mission and Blow Stuff Up.
Isn't that exactly what DPS'ers are doing? They chose a ship, they chose the crew they want in their ship, they chose their weapon types and took a mission to blow stuff up.
Don't beg the question, you know the difference under discussion
That they went into a public pug at all, is the issue.
It's also safe to say that a large reason for the empty queues right now is that DPS'ers (if they are still playing) no longer PUG. Prior to S13, the meta was threat-tanking, so the best way for a DPS'er to get good numbers is to PUG. Teaming up with other DPS'ers only meant threat was diluted, so they could not get the most out of FBP builds.
The rebalance made most of the current DPS builds perform badly in PUGs. The only ones that I see in a PUG are there to test their survivability. Those that want to set records do so in private groups.
It's funny though... Since everyone in this game is a DPS'er. Whether they admit it or not. Until we get STFs where you can heal an enemy to death or simply survive a timer under heavy fire to win, everyone uses DPS to win. All STFs require you to kill something, and the only way to do that is to output damage. And guess what the "D" in DPS stands for? It's just that some have a lot, while some have less in space than some ground toons.
Yes, everyone needs to have a damage output. That's not the same as going to extreme lengths to discover obscure ways of elevating that damage beyond standard capabilities. It's a different mindset, I know it, and you know it, so don't go pretending otherwise
"I fight for the Users!" - Tron
"I was here before you, I will be here after you are gone. I am here, regardless of your acknowledgement or acceptance..." - The Truth
It's funny though... Since everyone in this game is a DPS'er. Whether they admit it or not. Until we get STFs where you can heal an enemy to death or simply survive a timer under heavy fire to win, everyone uses DPS to win. All STFs require you to kill something, and the only way to do that is to output damage.
I'm sure many people don't like you saying that... but it's absolutely true.
In case you missed my previous question, I'll post it again: Out of idle curiousity, where would you place the following build on the DPS scale?
7xMk XII vr Polaron turrets @ 132(estimated) DPS per turret.
Wide-Angle Quantum Torpedo launcher, firing with Spread II. @ 416.4(estimated DPS)
Temporal Disentanglement Suite doing +0-2.5% Critical Chance. +0-10% Critical Severity.
Assimilated module doing +0.92% Critical Chance. +9.2% Critical Severity.
Chronometric Capacitor +20% Polaron Damage.
Red Matter Capacitor doing +25 All Power Settings for 20 sec
1xMk XII vr Polaron Phase Modulator @ +??%
Solanae Impluse Engine doing +3.8 Weapon Power Setting
"I fight for the Users!" - Tron
"I was here before you, I will be here after you are gone. I am here, regardless of your acknowledgement or acceptance..." - The Truth
It's funny though... Since everyone in this game is a DPS'er. Whether they admit it or not. Until we get STFs where you can heal an enemy to death or simply survive a timer under heavy fire to win, everyone uses DPS to win. All STFs require you to kill something, and the only way to do that is to output damage.
I'm sure many people don't like you saying that... but it's absolutely true.
In case you missed my previous question, I'll post it again: Out of idle curiousity, where would you place the following build on the DPS scale?
7xMk XII vr Polaron turrets @ 132(estimated) DPS per turret.
Wide-Angle Quantum Torpedo launcher, firing with Spread II. @ 416.4(estimated DPS)
Temporal Disentanglement Suite doing +0-2.5% Critical Chance. +0-10% Critical Severity.
Assimilated module doing +0.92% Critical Chance. +9.2% Critical Severity.
Chronometric Capacitor +20% Polaron Damage.
Red Matter Capacitor doing +25 All Power Settings for 20 sec
1xMk XII vr Polaron Phase Modulator @ +??%
Solanae Impluse Engine doing +3.8 Weapon Power Setting
It's incredibly difficult to guess with knowing only that, since there is so much more to a build than weapons and consoles and piloting affects DPS greatly too, but I would believe somewhere in low/mid-tier. Full turret builds usually are not very efficient.
Subsystem power is a thing, yes; especially on my Rom alt. I'm what you'd call semi-space rich, so I have all the goodies, including Lobi ship Traits like Supremacy, without which your power management really falls apart.
What I wanted to say is: many a player won't even change their 50-50-50-50 (40s for your Rom) standard setting.
According to Bort, almost everyone used it (which he used as a rationale to nerf it).
I'm surprised by that, though Borticus certainly will know more about this than me. I still wonder whether there wasn't some context, like (almost) everybody who has one, or everybody who's in the top tiers of DPS output.
The 30k channel is the DPS League's lowest Tier (20k no longer exist). So, from that perspective, 30k is really entry-level, as it were. Maybe I slightly exaggerated, saying 50k is on the low end too; but only to underline that doing 50k is nothing special really. In DPS circles, 50k just means "You don't necessarily totally suck."
Well, DPS channels probably aren't a thing for the majority of the playerbase. I need to speculate here, of course, but I am pretty confident. First: many won't be that interested in numbers. Second: another group wouldn't care as much for queueing with strangers just because they have about the same level (maybe some should), but prefer their friends, or the easy way of pugging. But third and foremost: DPS gauging needs external software and some (okay, two, on and off) cryptic (no pun intended) command lines. Bet you again, many players won't do that.
Also I'd think, but I haven't set them up, that DPS channel requirements are already there to separate certain levels. If everybody were capable of doing 30k+, there'd be no need to prove your "right" to be in this channel. And, as has been said, if you parse a pug you will easily get people below 10k without AFKing. So I wouldn't call 30k entry level.
And this is where I think silverlobes is correct, even if I don't agree with a lot of his post: many players will be happy to have a build and fly around and make things go boom, and as long as that works, they're fine. And thing is, even in the lower echelons, if you have five people you can complete content. Sure, it may take way longer, but as long as they're happy? And then comes somebody so much outdoing them that they have difficulties getting a hit in, which reduces their fun. I am not saying they are not to blame themselves, but I am saying they are customers as well, and Crypric has their interests in mind, too.
Now, if we started talking about those puggers who will complain that everybody sucks because the queue takes longer than they're used to while contributing less than everybody else themselves... but that's another story.
My mother was an epohh and my father smelled of tulaberries
It's funny though... Since everyone in this game is a DPS'er. Whether they admit it or not. Until we get STFs where you can heal an enemy to death or simply survive a timer under heavy fire to win, everyone uses DPS to win. All STFs require you to kill something, and the only way to do that is to output damage.
I'm sure many people don't like you saying that... but it's absolutely true.
In case you missed my previous question, I'll post it again: Out of idle curiousity, where would you place the following build on the DPS scale?
7xMk XII vr Polaron turrets @ 132(estimated) DPS per turret.
Wide-Angle Quantum Torpedo launcher, firing with Spread II. @ 416.4(estimated DPS)
Temporal Disentanglement Suite doing +0-2.5% Critical Chance. +0-10% Critical Severity.
Assimilated module doing +0.92% Critical Chance. +9.2% Critical Severity.
Chronometric Capacitor +20% Polaron Damage.
Red Matter Capacitor doing +25 All Power Settings for 20 sec
1xMk XII vr Polaron Phase Modulator @ +??%
Solanae Impluse Engine doing +3.8 Weapon Power Setting
It's incredibly difficult to guess with knowing only that, since there is so much more to a build than weapons and consoles and piloting affects DPS greatly too, but I would believe somewhere in low/mid-tier. Full turret builds usually are not very efficient.
My apologies, additional information which I forgot to add, is that ths ship in question is the T6 Science cruiser, and the engineering consoles are the native Adaptive Emergency Systems console, an advanced RCS accelerator, a capacitive RCS accelerator, a vr mk XII SIF generator, and advanced neutronium plating for the turn increase. Nothing fancy.
You're quite right, and I absolutely appreciate that full turret builds don't deliver as high levels of damage as say cannons, or beams, but I was lead to believe that the faster cyclic rate of the turret, combined with the frequency of use ( seven turrets firing = more frequently than one turret firing) meant that the resulting procs, would be good. As I mentioned, this type of build has served me very well in every occasion I've used it (including sending the turrets to new alts, so they could also benefit from the effect at an earlier point in the game than when I first learned about it) In terms of DPS, it may indeed only be low/mid-tier (I honestly wasn't expecting it to be any higher than that) output, but it is Effective and handles all the game's mission content without too much problem. The Tzenkethi, who sounded pretty hardcore in the preview write ups, have all always succumbed pretty easily to the effect. Some targets are harder, some are easier, but I certainly couldn't describe it as a vape build
(As a weapons layout, I'd certainly recommend it to anyone)
As mentioned, the focal point of my build, is healing/regeneration/restoration, rather than DPS output. It not only made absolute mincemeat of the Kazon, but everything they threw at the ship, it just kept on restoring the hull, and rebuilding the shields. The only opponents who actually posed a threat, was the Borg, because they could bring the shields down and keep them that way, but prior to e13, I could do that mission where the Borg are on the Romulan ship, with no shields slotted at all, and allow hull restoration to keep everything together. Not anymore (because of the rebalance) The point I'm trying to make, is that the rebalance didn't just hit the DPS Meisters, but chopped everyone off at the knees in some way
"I fight for the Users!" - Tron
"I was here before you, I will be here after you are gone. I am here, regardless of your acknowledgement or acceptance..." - The Truth
but I was lead to believe that the faster cyclic rate of the turret, combined with the frequency of use ( seven turrets firing = more frequently than one turret firing) meant that the resulting procs, would be good
This was true pre S13 where some procs were per shot. Post S13, weapon procs are now per cycle.
but I was lead to believe that the faster cyclic rate of the turret, combined with the frequency of use ( seven turrets firing = more frequently than one turret firing) meant that the resulting procs, would be good
This was true pre S13 where some procs were per shot. Post S13, weapon procs are now per cycle.
And that's exactly the point I'm making: S13 chopped everyone off at the knees. And had the DPS Meisters not pissed off enough people in the pugs that they started complaining about it on forum and getting the dev's attention, the devs likely would not have run the rebalance. Even if it was only ever one person doing it, or just one percent of the DPS Crowd doing it, it was still enough that it not only brought in a nerf which hit everyone, but was also something which could have been prevented with a little self-restraint and a more sportsmanlike attitude, on the part of the DPS Crowd.
"I fight for the Users!" - Tron
"I was here before you, I will be here after you are gone. I am here, regardless of your acknowledgement or acceptance..." - The Truth
Comments
Also, you were one of those who claimed there is nothing wrong with player activity, so why not just pug those?
U.S.S. Buteo Regalis - Brigid Multi-Mission Surveillance Explorer build
R.R.W. Ri Maajon - Khopesh Tactical Dreadnought Warbird build
My Youtube channel containing STO videos.
Yes, right. At least judging from my experience with players from the fleets I'm in. There are the regulars who really know about builds, yes, but quite a few who can hold their own don't do what you're listing.
I will give you BFAW, I don't think I've seen a beam build without it. I will give you GW, although it is more often than not just a purple cloud in the sky due to no skill points invested or other factors supporting it.
But subsystem power? You can still tell a sizeable proportion of the playerbase that you can change allocation to the subsystems to start with and that having 125 weapon or aux is a different game from 50+.
Plasmonic Leech? Many players use the standard consoles, those that drop. Maybe upgraded. Nothing fancy like fleet gear or rep gear. Okay, sometimes one or two of those, if you can be bothered to get the extra elite marks beyond your starting 5 or so you get from completing a rep - if you did that to begin with. But certainly not a console you don't come across during normal gameplay - Feds and Roms need to go to the exchange and know that it exists, KDF needs to buy a low tier ship which normally nobody does. I'll venture the guess that way less than half of the player base use(d) it, and I don't mean for the reason that it has no place in their build. Exploders? What are these?
And 50+k "at the low end" is probably a sign of people around you being better than average. Way better actually. Yes, people will have 5 to 6 times your output. But those are few and far between, way more will have a fifth or sixth of your performance. And while looking to those who can do stuff is great for learning, it is not working as well for judging how players will be affected by this change.
Now you can easily say these players need to up their game. And they can do so, often times 5 minutes in fleet chat can make a huge difference for them. But they first need to find somebody who tells them, and before that they may need to ask - not everybody goes to wikis or similar but likes to find out themselves as much as they can. And the moment a thing like the leech comes in, also it starts getting an investment, which many will think twice about. And yes, you can make a perfectly viable build from those drops, but then you get drowned in possibilities and different effects and procs which may sound good in the tooltip but don't really help you. And there's a lot of possibilities out there, finding the good ones is difficult. So they won't reach 50k.
And these players will feel way less effects from this change. And I have no numbers, but I'm betting they're the majority. Possibly even in advanced queues, almost certainly in standard ones.
Subsystem power is a thing, yes; especially on my Rom alt. I'm what you'd call semi-space rich, so I have all the goodies, including Lobi ship Traits like Supremacy, without which your power management really falls apart.
According to Bort, almost everyone used it (which he used as a rationale to nerf it).
'Exploders' are what ppl lovingly called the Science Plasma consoles; those be utterly dead now.
The 30k channel is the DPS League's lowest Tier (20k no longer exist). So, from that perspective, 30k is really entry-level, as it were. Maybe I slightly exaggerated, saying 50k is on the low end too; but only to underline that doing 50k is nothing special really. In DPS circles, 50k just means "You don't necessarily totally suck."
When I was still a n00b (some would argue I still am :P), I recall flying my brand-new Orb Weaver, without doffs even, and I *hope* with some boff abilities, LOL. So, I was in a queue, and someone, afterwards, said I had to learn a lot, and not just fight 'normally.' So, I got all smart-alecky, and responded "Is there something abnormal about the way I fight now?!" Yeah, that didn't go well, but I nonetheless decided that day, that yeah, maybe I really needed to L2P a bit (if for nothing else, because I felt bad for my team mates).
So, like tunebreaker says, we kinda have to work from the premiss that people are willing to learn. Otherwise, yeah, you'd get into the below-10k strata (or the AFK-ers).
I am pretty sure DPS-10k still exists.
And while I wouldn't necessarily agree that 50k is *low-end*, it is certainly entry-level for STO's elite content.
U.S.S. Buteo Regalis - Brigid Multi-Mission Surveillance Explorer build
R.R.W. Ri Maajon - Khopesh Tactical Dreadnought Warbird build
My Youtube channel containing STO videos.
Overcapping is a player invented term, which is probably why the game never references it anywhere. It's mechanics (until my lengthy chats with Spartan and hours upon hours of testing and video rewatching on the topic) were largely guess work based on some observations until I made some posts on r/stobuilds (that I can't seam to get right moving them over here), and even then it's not to the level of explination that I want.
Furthermore, trying to explain the full EPS system to a brand new player would be pretty overwhelming (which speaks to both players not willing to want to learn or even able as it is a fairly complex idea, but the people who do well in 'DPS Terms' look into these kinds of systems to try and improve their performance, and to do that could seam largely un-fun or un-wanted to a large portion of people).
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The Science Ship Build Thread - Share your Sci Ship builds here!
Space Barbie is getting a bit too expensive for me
[Edit]: On a more serious note, a word on tanks.
It's been my Experiance that in order to make a proper tank in S13 (like actually take aggro, not just survive which is the commonly accepted idea of 'tanking') you need many many fine adjustments to get your ship to a point where you have enough damage to take aggro off high DPS players and also have enough healing to survive. Changing either of these aspects results in a null-and-void result, since more damage turns you into a DPS ship and more healing makes you into a turtle. The end result is a very static setup that doesn't change, nor can change. I found one ship to be the best, and it's the only one which actually works for me as a tank. All the other ships I have that I want to fly I can't because my playstyle of trying and enjoying building tanks doesn't work properly anymore.
Threat (and largely threat with pets such as GW, SSV, and hanger pets) has been largely forgotten in S13, seeing as one of four (three if you're not in a cruiser with Attract Fire) ways to increase threatscale has largely become non-relevant, and I dare say useless outside of the science skill value boost (which means that res lab consoles will now trump them, and in fact do trump them). Removing my only Plasma Amplifier actually netted me more aggro since I got higher damage without it by replacing it with a res lab console; this should be the complete opposite of what it's supposed to do, which is increase your threat.
Basically, my 'fun' was wrong, and I have been told that my observations in this matter aren't real and valid.
Seriously, you basically said that only people who read guides posted to the internet are actually trying to play the game well... yeah, great job demonstrating why a lot of people think of the DPS leagues as being run by el@markhawkman
Then a lot of people are utterly mistaken. DPS channels are a great service to the community which not only enables you to team up with players equal to your performance but also to acquire knowledge fast. You have no idea how many countless hours of effort owners and admins of those channels put into their community to help them better understand the game and how stuff works. When reading your post I can’t help but feel fortunate. Not even three years ago I was full of skepticism towards DPSers as well! Tell you what: I set aside my prejudice, learned, supported and nowadays am honored to help Felisean to set new DPS and speed records. He is one of the most helpful, enthusiastic and talented player I got to know in over 5 years of STO. He shares it all, for free; just like the OP does in the TSC.
Looking for a fun PvE fleet? Join us at Omega Combat Division today.
for some reason your post is much longer in a quote than it is displayed in the forum.....
please listen to yourself here a bit.
a dude needed 6 hours to explain properly mechanics behind his numbers.....
6! HOURS!
and you expect everyone to sit throught those 6 hours?
for average joey it is "unknown knowledge", deal with it - you cannot expect people to sit throught full 6 hours of YT vids to play the game and just blatantly call them out "lazy players who can't **** themselves to check stuff up" for not doing so - and if you tried to actually force them to watch these before playing? well the game would be actually dead right now.
on the case of S13 rebalancing though I have put some second thoughts into the matter and I think that thing that is backfiring most is that cryptic decided to bunch all of it into single release [due to either impatience or idea that they can pump enought hype for "balanced" game to compensate for a hit?] while they could just as well split those changes into small packages released over time every update of even every second one - in which case over tiem they would reach the same spot in terms of balancing - but without people being so upset about their toys being nerfed so much.....
You are not required to sit through whole 6h to become good, anywhere near semi-decent in fact. As I said before, you can become "good enough" without watching any guides, that 6+10h video material is there to guide people very deep into the game and make it easier for them to grab first places on DPS leaderboards. The reason I brought that particular videoseries up is that to my knowledge, it is the most detailed guide out there and prepares people the best for chasing DPS highscores.
If that isn't your thing, no one is forcing you to watch those videos and you have a right not to care, but the information *is* there if people are interested. Furthermore, there are shorter videoguides (obviously going less into detail, but still very useful), as well as many written guides in r/stobuilds.
U.S.S. Buteo Regalis - Brigid Multi-Mission Surveillance Explorer build
R.R.W. Ri Maajon - Khopesh Tactical Dreadnought Warbird build
My Youtube channel containing STO videos.
well the point was the line of contradiction in tune's argumentation - either he expects everyoen to sit throught it or have someone explaining it to them in shorter frame of time or spend time "rediscovering" it on their own - or he accept that it is not a common knowledge.
in which [latter] case he has no right making fun of people who got wrong idea when seeing stuff happen without knowledge [and/or time dedicated to purpsue said knowledge] to fully understand all stuff that made this happen [his post about silly comments on exploits and broken mechanics] nor he has right to call people lazy for not knowing things
I thought about that initially then I realized just from my own behavior during that time that it would probably not have worked out well for Cryptic had they released the balance pass in piecemeal.
When news first came out of a ground balance pass, I immediately stopped spending in the game. Everything from Dilithium to EC and Zen. I stopped because once I heard of the ground balance pass, I knew space wasn't going to be far behind. I have not spent anything since then until now because I am waiting to see if things truly settled down. I do not want to spend on anything that may be re-adjusted just a few weeks/months later. I have not even bothered to adjust and rebuild my alts now as well because of that.
If I thought about doing that, I wonder how many other players did the same.
Now if Cryptic had decided to release the balance pass in piecemeal, that period of non-spending will probably go longer for me and many others. There is also the possibility that those who try to adapt as the balance process went on would get burnt out with the constant changes taking place.
I think Cryptic did well by dumping a huge lump of changes in one go in this case.
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The Science Ship Build Thread - Share your Sci Ship builds here!
I didn't use word combination "common knowledge" anywhere in my original post. And I don't expect anyone to sit through anything. My main point was people have the resources where from they can learn (some of them explaining stuff very thoroughly), if they *want* to chase high DPS numbers and don't want to figure hard stuff out. If they don't, everything basic is available from game.
U.S.S. Buteo Regalis - Brigid Multi-Mission Surveillance Explorer build
R.R.W. Ri Maajon - Khopesh Tactical Dreadnought Warbird build
My Youtube channel containing STO videos.
Wrong question, and victim mentality, which misses the issue people have with DPS Meisters.
Yes. Because in some instances, that DPS output should not have been possible to achieve, because ome of it was achieved by exploitation of broken game-mechanics. Was it fair to nerf everyone? Not by a long shot.
The option to push the ships to and beyond the limits, should not have been possible. That you 'bothered to do so', doesn't impact the situation.
I know how to both process cocaine from extract to powder, and how to cook meth. Is it fair that the police would arrest me for cooking, and selling what I learned to cook, to people who want to buy it? Although what DPS Meisters do isn't illegal, the principle is still the same. What you're protesting, would be the same as me protesting "I learned how to make coke and cook meth; You have to let me cook up and sell it!"
Yes. Complaint to the umpire is allowed in any sporting event. Especially so when one player is using a performance enhancement which gives them an advantage over the other player.
Because your game isn't the game they want to play. They want to play the game Cryptic is offering: Choose a ship, choose a crew, choose your weapons, choose a mission and Blow Stuff Up.
Because that's not what playing Star Trek Online requires.
Someone may lack the time or resources to 'build themself up' as you put it. That one Borg Red Alert, might be all the time their schedule allows them to play. And you and your crew ruined it for them, by melting everything on the map before they could get to it. Do you seriously think that someone under those kind of constraints is even going to want to keep squandering their log-in time by being rendered obsolete? Let alone take the time and effort to 'build themself up' or even learn how to?? Are you (as a group, not you personally) that oblivious to the feelings of others that you can't grasp that possibility?
Choose a ship, choose a crew, choose your weapons, choose a mission and Blow Stuff Up.
That, is all the game requires a player to do. It is also, all a player may want to do. Even if a player has the resources to do a DPS MegaBuild, that doesn't translate to them actually wanting to do so, when it's not what the game requires them to do.
You (and the other DPS Meisters) are laboring under the false assumption that because there is a higher level of play achievable, that everyone else either wants to, or should, pursue that goal. Finding a way to play a game in GodMode, doesn't oblige others to use the same method when playing. Since tunebreaker appears unwilling to address my question about my main build, I'll pose it to you as well: Out of idle curiousity, where would you place the following build on the DPS scale?
7xMk XII vr Polaron turrets @ 132(estimated) DPS per turret.
Wide-Angle Quantum Torpedo launcher, firing with Spread II. @ 416.4(estimated DPS)
Temporal Disentanglement Suite doing +0-2.5% Critical Chance. +0-10% Critical Severity.
Assimilated module doing +0.92% Critical Chance. +9.2% Critical Severity.
Chronometric Capacitor +20% Polaron Damage.
Red Matter Capacitor doing +25 All Power Settings for 20 sec
1xMk XII vr Polaron Phase Modulator @ +??%
Solanae Impluse Engine doing +3.8 Weapon Power Setting
You see, that does, or rather did (before the rebalance) cope perfectly adequately with both regular missions, and Red Alerts. It was working the way I wanted, and there was no need for that to change. I don't even care about DPS, but the rebalance still affected me as well, even if not in the same way.
I don't care what end of the scale they're at. You're still acknowledging that there are DPS players who show off. That's all that needs to be said. Even if it's only one DPSer going into Red Alert pug runs, they're still ruining the experience for three other people.
And I have no issue with that, so long as it remains contained in private queues or mission plays. Want to go into a random public instance, take an appropriately levelled ship.
Why they went into the instance and melted everything, is irrelevant. That they went into a public pug at all, is the issue. What might have only been a test run for the DPS Meister, may have been another player's only opportunity that their schedule allows. The only chance they get, and it gets ruined for them. So once again, where's the sportsmanlike conduct in that?
If someone wants to test a build, then they can replay any of the many missions which will give a space battle. There is simply No Need to take a DPS MegaBuild into an anonymous pug. There's an old saying: The right tool, for the right job.
The average player may not have the time or the inclination to find out how to do more DPS. They may not have the resources to fund the build. What they're doing, may be all they can do. And they should be able to do that, without fear of being made redundant in a pug, of not being able to hit anything before it gets blown up, or even worse, have someone else swoop in and steal their kill from them.
For example, Usain Bolt, wouldn't enter a kid's school sports day, and leave the others in his smoke. David Beckham wouldn't enter a pub's five-a-side match, run around hogging the ball, calling the other players a bunch of losers, and then stand around afterwards and tell everyone else that they need to up their game; That just because he was able to become SuperAwesome, they can/must too. A good sportsman simply doesn't conduct himself like that.
Is the point becoming clearer?
And you're missing the point that, just because you're not all trying to make others look bad, it doesn't mean that it's not still effing up someone else's gameplay experience, and it doesn't mean that your collective actions, weren't responsible for the nerf which has chopped everyone off at the knees. As with everything in life, it's the idiots who ruin it for everyone else.
"I was here before you, I will be here after you are gone. I am here, regardless of your acknowledgement or acceptance..." - The Truth
Member Access Denied Armada!
My forum single-issue of rage: Make the Proton Experimental Weapon go for subsystem targetting!
Grinding out ship masteries is pretty much the only occasion I bother with RAs. How much DPS may I bring, or rather how slow do I have to be in order not being considered a show off by you? Perhaps I should not do it altogether and play Argala instead? Would that be ok by you?
As far as the rest of your post is concerned. You really bring me in a mood to hop into my Scim and pug a few ISA again.
Thanks man, I needed that!
Looking for a fun PvE fleet? Join us at Omega Combat Division today.
"I was here before you, I will be here after you are gone. I am here, regardless of your acknowledgement or acceptance..." - The Truth
"I was here before you, I will be here after you are gone. I am here, regardless of your acknowledgement or acceptance..." - The Truth
Isn't that exactly what DPS'ers are doing? They chose a ship, they chose the crew they want in their ship, they chose their weapon types and took a mission to blow stuff up.
It's also safe to say that a large reason for the empty queues right now is that DPS'ers (if they are still playing) no longer PUG. Prior to S13, the meta was threat-tanking, so the best way for a DPS'er to get good numbers is to PUG. Teaming up with other DPS'ers only meant threat was diluted, so they could not get the most out of FBP builds.
The rebalance made most of the current DPS builds perform badly in PUGs. The only ones that I see in a PUG are there to test their survivability. Those that want to set records do so in private groups.
It's funny though... Since everyone in this game is a DPS'er. Whether they admit it or not. Until we get STFs where you can heal an enemy to death or simply survive a timer under heavy fire to win, everyone uses DPS to win. All STFs require you to kill something, and the only way to do that is to output damage. And guess what the "D" in DPS stands for? It's just that some have a lot, while some have less in space than some ground toons.
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The Science Ship Build Thread - Share your Sci Ship builds here!
I'm sure many people don't like you saying that... but it's absolutely true.
U.S.S. Buteo Regalis - Brigid Multi-Mission Surveillance Explorer build
R.R.W. Ri Maajon - Khopesh Tactical Dreadnought Warbird build
My Youtube channel containing STO videos.
Spot on sir.
Hello rubber banding my old friend, time to bounce around the battlezone again, where are all my bug reports going?, out of love with this game I am falling, As Cryptic fail to acknowledge a problem exists, Shakes an angry fist, And from Support all I'm hearing are the sounds of silence.
Yes, everyone needs to have a damage output. That's not the same as going to extreme lengths to discover obscure ways of elevating that damage beyond standard capabilities. It's a different mindset, I know it, and you know it, so don't go pretending otherwise
"I was here before you, I will be here after you are gone. I am here, regardless of your acknowledgement or acceptance..." - The Truth
In case you missed my previous question, I'll post it again: Out of idle curiousity, where would you place the following build on the DPS scale?
7xMk XII vr Polaron turrets @ 132(estimated) DPS per turret.
Wide-Angle Quantum Torpedo launcher, firing with Spread II. @ 416.4(estimated DPS)
Temporal Disentanglement Suite doing +0-2.5% Critical Chance. +0-10% Critical Severity.
Assimilated module doing +0.92% Critical Chance. +9.2% Critical Severity.
Chronometric Capacitor +20% Polaron Damage.
Red Matter Capacitor doing +25 All Power Settings for 20 sec
1xMk XII vr Polaron Phase Modulator @ +??%
Solanae Impluse Engine doing +3.8 Weapon Power Setting
"I was here before you, I will be here after you are gone. I am here, regardless of your acknowledgement or acceptance..." - The Truth
It's incredibly difficult to guess with knowing only that, since there is so much more to a build than weapons and consoles and piloting affects DPS greatly too, but I would believe somewhere in low/mid-tier. Full turret builds usually are not very efficient.
U.S.S. Buteo Regalis - Brigid Multi-Mission Surveillance Explorer build
R.R.W. Ri Maajon - Khopesh Tactical Dreadnought Warbird build
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What I wanted to say is: many a player won't even change their 50-50-50-50 (40s for your Rom) standard setting.
I'm surprised by that, though Borticus certainly will know more about this than me. I still wonder whether there wasn't some context, like (almost) everybody who has one, or everybody who's in the top tiers of DPS output.
Well, DPS channels probably aren't a thing for the majority of the playerbase. I need to speculate here, of course, but I am pretty confident. First: many won't be that interested in numbers. Second: another group wouldn't care as much for queueing with strangers just because they have about the same level (maybe some should), but prefer their friends, or the easy way of pugging. But third and foremost: DPS gauging needs external software and some (okay, two, on and off) cryptic (no pun intended) command lines. Bet you again, many players won't do that.
Also I'd think, but I haven't set them up, that DPS channel requirements are already there to separate certain levels. If everybody were capable of doing 30k+, there'd be no need to prove your "right" to be in this channel. And, as has been said, if you parse a pug you will easily get people below 10k without AFKing. So I wouldn't call 30k entry level.
And this is where I think silverlobes is correct, even if I don't agree with a lot of his post: many players will be happy to have a build and fly around and make things go boom, and as long as that works, they're fine. And thing is, even in the lower echelons, if you have five people you can complete content. Sure, it may take way longer, but as long as they're happy? And then comes somebody so much outdoing them that they have difficulties getting a hit in, which reduces their fun. I am not saying they are not to blame themselves, but I am saying they are customers as well, and Crypric has their interests in mind, too.
Now, if we started talking about those puggers who will complain that everybody sucks because the queue takes longer than they're used to while contributing less than everybody else themselves... but that's another story.
My apologies, additional information which I forgot to add, is that ths ship in question is the T6 Science cruiser, and the engineering consoles are the native Adaptive Emergency Systems console, an advanced RCS accelerator, a capacitive RCS accelerator, a vr mk XII SIF generator, and advanced neutronium plating for the turn increase. Nothing fancy.
You're quite right, and I absolutely appreciate that full turret builds don't deliver as high levels of damage as say cannons, or beams, but I was lead to believe that the faster cyclic rate of the turret, combined with the frequency of use ( seven turrets firing = more frequently than one turret firing) meant that the resulting procs, would be good. As I mentioned, this type of build has served me very well in every occasion I've used it (including sending the turrets to new alts, so they could also benefit from the effect at an earlier point in the game than when I first learned about it) In terms of DPS, it may indeed only be low/mid-tier (I honestly wasn't expecting it to be any higher than that) output, but it is Effective and handles all the game's mission content without too much problem. The Tzenkethi, who sounded pretty hardcore in the preview write ups, have all always succumbed pretty easily to the effect. Some targets are harder, some are easier, but I certainly couldn't describe it as a vape build
(As a weapons layout, I'd certainly recommend it to anyone)
As mentioned, the focal point of my build, is healing/regeneration/restoration, rather than DPS output. It not only made absolute mincemeat of the Kazon, but everything they threw at the ship, it just kept on restoring the hull, and rebuilding the shields. The only opponents who actually posed a threat, was the Borg, because they could bring the shields down and keep them that way, but prior to e13, I could do that mission where the Borg are on the Romulan ship, with no shields slotted at all, and allow hull restoration to keep everything together. Not anymore (because of the rebalance) The point I'm trying to make, is that the rebalance didn't just hit the DPS Meisters, but chopped everyone off at the knees in some way
"I was here before you, I will be here after you are gone. I am here, regardless of your acknowledgement or acceptance..." - The Truth
This was true pre S13 where some procs were per shot. Post S13, weapon procs are now per cycle.
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"I was here before you, I will be here after you are gone. I am here, regardless of your acknowledgement or acceptance..." - The Truth