I couldn't care less who joins the event pug queues, if I'm going to try to get to the max stage (or complete it, if it's possible), I'm going to do a premade with my friends anyway.
Guess it's time for me to improvise some cannon/sci hybrids on those toons of mine which didn’t have a chance to play NWS yet. I hope TSC and Metal-Channels thrive with players who want to run the map over the weekend.
Oh boy and I really hope cryptic brings back the “original” and not some twisted echo of the wonderful map it was.
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I couldn't care less who joins the event pug queues, if I'm going to try to get to the max stage (or complete it, if it's possible), I'm going to do a premade with my friends anyway.
Guess it's time for me to improvise some cannon/sci hybrids on those toons of mine which didn’t have a chance to play NWS yet. I hope TSC and Metal-Channels thrive with players who want to run the map over the weekend.
Oh boy and I really hope cryptic brings back the “original” and not some twisted echo of the wonderful map it was.
From the sound of it, seems like a new map (although I haven't heard a 100% clear confirmation yet). Hopefully will be at least as good as the old one.
Tl;dr: when the system has determined you are, say, a player at Advanced level, you will no longer be allowed to join the same (PUG) queue on Normal.**
Same for Elite queues: once the system finds you sufficiently capable for Elite, then you can only play said queue on Elite, and no longer on Advanced & Normal.
**Obviously wouldn't apply to queues that don't have higher versions of themselves.
Bottom line is.. and people aren't going to like this but..
If you join public queues, you play with the public. Your game experience will be random, sometimes you'll be the hero, sometimes you'll be a spectator. If you want a specific experience in game content then you should play that content with a pre-made group that fits your style. Trying to dictate to people how they should play public queues is selfish and silly.
Except, the new match system was supposed to prevent exactly that! Better players would be matched with better players, and not-so-good players with like-skilled others as well. Problem just is: the match system is a bust, because there are simply not enough people left to properly queue you with your peers: the high DPS-er will 'invade' your PUG, after all, because the system couldn't find enough ppl (in time) of your strength to match you with, and vice versa.
Which is why my Joiner Penalty would likely fail too: matching players requires a graciously filled pool of potential contenders, and the last drop seems to be drained from it already.
Yeah, your Joiner penalty would most likely to be a bust. I would, most likely, be flagged by the system as an elite player. Which means, for me, queueing aspect of the game would be... *totally* dead. Pug queues pop on elites only once every blue moon - if you're lucky. Yet, on many occasions, I see there aren't many people online, but I still need marks or just want to blow something up, or I want to help a non-elite-ready fleetie through a queue, and I take advanced version to pug.
Or, another possibility - something goes wrong (very unexpected, isn't it?!), I get flagged as a normal player and I proceed to blow everything up in a matter of seconds, being bored myself and upsetting others.
And what happens if I switch ships? Not all of my builds are capable of doing elites.
Yeah, your Joiner penalty would most likely to be a bust. I would, most likely, be flagged by the system as an elite player. Which means, for me, queueing aspect of the game would be... *totally* dead. Pug queues pop on elites only once every blue moon - if you're lucky. Yet, on many occasions, I see there aren't many people online, but I still need marks or just want to blow something up, or I want to help a non-elite-ready fleetie through a queue, and I take advanced version to pug.
Yep. Any match-making system requires a very large pool of players to choose from, or you get where we are to date.
Yeah, your Joiner penalty would most likely to be a bust. I would, most likely, be flagged by the system as an elite player. Which means, for me, queueing aspect of the game would be... *totally* dead. Pug queues pop on elites only once every blue moon - if you're lucky. Yet, on many occasions, I see there aren't many people online, but I still need marks or just want to blow something up, or I want to help a non-elite-ready fleetie through a queue, and I take advanced version to pug.
Yep. Any match-making system requires a very large pool of players to choose from, or you get where we are to date.
Hole in your argument, Meimei:
the PPS (matchmaking) system only applies on three queues.
that's it. Those three are the only queues it's on. Everything else, is first-come-first-served.
Broader application might have been planned, but it never came through, and it's never been applied to the PvP queues at all.
Wow, didn't know that. Hmm, that makes the state of the queues even more deplorable then (if you can't just queue because of 'thin' match-making, but simply because it can't find anyone, period).
P.S. The UI keeps telling you it *is* matching you, though.
Which is why my Joiner Penalty would likely fail too: matching players requires a graciously filled pool of potential contenders, and the last drop seems to be drained from it already.
While I admire the spirit behind our proposal, I ultimately wouldn't want to see it implemented.
Under your system, once I am 'tagged' as a 'big DPS Guy' or whatever.. I can no longer run Advanced versions of certain queues. The issue is, even though I'm perfectly capable of doing Elites, I don't always WANT to do an Elite Run. Sometimes, I just want to queue up to an Advanced run, get my rewards and get it over with. A game like STO often requires you to run dozens, sometimes even hundreds of runs of certain queues for materials needed for upgrades. Think how much more of a detriment it would be if now you could only get them from Elite Queues which generally take considerably longer then Advanced and can be failed if you get a bad team.
The real issue is that Advanced is the only queue difficulty that most players are interested in. They give the best reward/effort/risk ratio and are therefore problematic since they appeal to players on all ends of the skill spectrum. As long as Advanced offers the best opportunity, it's going to be the one everyone wants to run and as long as that's true you're going to have players of various skill levels all lumped together.
In the end, no system is going to be fool proof. The only way to guarantee yourself a balanced skill level is to play in a pre-made team. Playing in public queues are always going to be a randomized experience. The honest truth is that the only viable solution for this issue is for people to simply realize that this is a fact that is highly unlikely to ever change.
I have been, and continue to be against any system that tells certain groups of players that they cannot play certain content. And yes, I'm against it even knowing it would keep 8k DPS players out of Advanced queues and ultimately benefit me. I just understand that in most cases, that 8k guy can't get what they need any other way and my having to carry them is an condition that I'm prepared for when I queue up publicly.
I want to be clear, I am not trying to bash on your idea at all, I simply disagree with it. I believe your idea is proposed with the best of intention, I just see problems with it. I have nothing but respect for your opinion.
If I'm using a double-standard, it's because the 'other side', is espousing their feels for their entitlement for their high DPS activities...
Now you're making excuses for and justifying your behavior.
And funnily enough, able to justify my behaviour precisely because of the attitudes espoused. I thought you were supposed to be a community moderator, but you've joined in on the dog-piling behaviour of a mob. You've consistently ignored every single point I have made, every one of them valid, only to cherry pick lines in the post which you felt you could snark down to to put me in my place and avoid having to answer those points.
Until you actually address the points I was making, you're just proving my point even further, because if I was actually wrong with anything I said, you, or anyone else, would be able to give an actual counterpoint, not just call double-standard or nitpick phraseology as an excuse to not do so.
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If I'm using a double-standard, it's because the 'other side', is espousing their feels for their entitlement for their high DPS activities...
Now you're making excuses for and justifying your behavior.
And funnily enough, able to justify my behaviour precisely because of the attitudes espoused. I thought you were supposed to be a community moderator, but you've joined in on the dog-piling behaviour of a mob. You've consistently ignored every single point I have made, every one of them valid, only to cherry pick lines in the post which you felt you could snark down to to put me in my place and avoid having to answer those points.
Until you actually address the points I was making, you're just proving my point even further, because if I was actually wrong with anything I said, you, or anyone else, would be able to give an actual counterpoint, not just call double-standard or nitpick phraseology as an excuse to not do so.
There have been plenty of people who have tried to address your points, but you have simply dismissed them, cause reasons. You have trampled down all points other people have made and refused to answer *those*.
Really, to quote mmps1 earlier, your posts are terrible - that's the most specific feedback you seem to understand.
Which is why my Joiner Penalty would likely fail too: matching players requires a graciously filled pool of potential contenders, and the last drop seems to be drained from it already.
While I admire the spirit behind our proposal, I ultimately wouldn't want to see it implemented.
Under your system, once I am 'tagged' as a 'big DPS Guy' or whatever.. I can no longer run Advanced versions of certain queues. The issue is, even though I'm perfectly capable of doing Elites, I don't always WANT to do an Elite Run. Sometimes, I just want to queue up to an Advanced run, get my rewards and get it over with. A game like STO often requires you to run dozens, sometimes even hundreds of runs of certain queues for materials needed for upgrades. Think how much more of a detriment it would be if now you could only get them from Elite Queues which generally take considerably longer then Advanced and can be failed if you get a bad team.
The real issue is that Advanced is the only queue difficulty that most players are interested in. They give the best reward/effort/risk ratio and are therefore problematic since they appeal to players on all ends of the skill spectrum. As long as Advanced offers the best opportunity, it's going to be the one everyone wants to run and as long as that's true you're going to have players of various skill levels all lumped together.
In the end, no system is going to be fool proof. The only way to guarantee yourself a balanced skill level is to play in a pre-made team. Playing in public queues are always going to be a randomized experience. The honest truth is that the only viable solution for this issue is for people to simply realize that this is a fact that is highly unlikely to ever change.
I have been, and continue to be against any system that tells certain groups of players that they cannot play certain content. And yes, I'm against it even knowing it would keep 8k DPS players out of Advanced queues and ultimately benefit me. I just understand that in most cases, that 8k guy can't get what they need any other way and my having to carry them is an condition that I'm prepared for when I queue up publicly.
I want to be clear, I am not trying to bash on your idea at all, I simply disagree with it. I believe your idea is proposed with the best of intention, I just see problems with it. I have nothing but respect for your opinion.
Np. And I appreciate the kindness of your reply. And I myself didn't even think my proposal would really work. You and tunebreaker just added some extra reasons why it wouldn't, is all.
I thought you were supposed to be a community moderator, but you've joined in on the dog-piling behaviour of a mob. You've consistently ignored every single point I have made, every one of them valid, only to cherry pick lines in the post which you felt you could snark down to to put me in my place and avoid having to answer those points.
He has done nothing of the sort.
He called you on your hypocrisy and cited specific examples of such. You have countered by simply not accepting any of his arguments as valid. Just because he's a moderator does not mean he has to blindly agree with everyone/anyone.
He has attacked only your ideas and not you personally. You're deflecting on to him the fact that you cannot defend your own argument.
@tunebreaker oh man they're still going? You'd think they might have taken the hint about how terrible their posts are several pages ago. You'll likely be branded a troll now, for shame!
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'As l speak now, the words are forming in my head.
l don't know.
l really don't know what l'm about to say, except l have a feeling about it.
That l must repeat the words that come without my knowledge.'
If I'm using a double-standard, it's because the 'other side', is espousing their feels for their entitlement for their high DPS activities...
Now you're making excuses for and justifying your behavior.
And funnily enough, able to justify my behaviour precisely because of the attitudes espoused. I thought you were supposed to be a community moderator, but you've joined in on the dog-piling behaviour of a mob. You've consistently ignored every single point I have made, every one of them valid, only to cherry pick lines in the post which you felt you could snark down to to put me in my place and avoid having to answer those points.
Until you actually address the points I was making, you're just proving my point even further, because if I was actually wrong with anything I said, you, or anyone else, would be able to give an actual counterpoint, not just call double-standard or nitpick phraseology as an excuse to not do so.
No, your behavior is not justified. Yes, I am a community moderator, and I'm not addressing your points, because I'm not here to address your argument. I'm here addressing your behavior in this thread. I've "cherry picked" lines that speak specifically to said behavior. What? I didn't post a meme so you can't tell when you're being moderated?
Post edited by baddmoonrizin on
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I'm amazed this thread still open till these days. If this was as bad as DR this would have been closed down in a heartbeat for flaming/trolling like many were back in that day.
Back in the day laughingtrendy would not put up with any dissenting threads.
If I'm using a double-standard, it's because the 'other side', is espousing their feels for their entitlement for their high DPS activities...
Now you're making excuses for and justifying your behavior.
And funnily enough, able to justify my behaviour precisely because of the attitudes espoused. I thought you were supposed to be a community moderator, but you've joined in on the dog-piling behaviour of a mob. You've consistently ignored every single point I have made, every one of them valid, only to cherry pick lines in the post which you felt you could snark down to to put me in my place and avoid having to answer those points.
Until you actually address the points I was making, you're just proving my point even further, because if I was actually wrong with anything I said, you, or anyone else, would be able to give an actual counterpoint, not just call double-standard or nitpick phraseology as an excuse to not do so.
Dude, give it a rest. The mod its clearly on their side. In fact on a few pages back a dpser result in naming and such and he got away with it. If myself would to be calling out on DPSers of been a lame butthurt circlejerk, wich is true in this thread, I would be modded right away. So leave it man...
For what is worth, I am really glad the DPSers got nerfed. It was their fault but not for what sarcasticly was stated in here. You see, every powercreep, overpowered stuff was treated like a godsent and "eat" it for higher numbers, even if that made the game more and more imbalanced. Like I remember with the embassy consoles. Right after the fist temper with them, when they were made into explosions, even the lowest common sense would tell you that they are overperforming. But DPSers were glad they got away with it, not thinking longterm. I mean its not right that an cheap-TRIBBLE console to be better then some prime expensive lobi items, like the BIC for example... and ship to be valued by how many sci console slots they have... I told Cryptic they were shooting themselves in the foot with this... And this was the case with many overpowered things. Of course this is also Cryptic to blame, but not entirely. If feedback would've been given, things reported and insisted and such, maybe things wouldnt been cut off all at once like it was now.
And some things WERE broken, not matter how you view it, like Feedback Pulse for example. I am not saying all DPSers were using them, of course. But the majority of them were...
The real issue is that Advanced is the only queue difficulty that most players are interested in. They give the best reward/effort/risk ratio and are therefore problematic since they appeal to players on all ends of the skill spectrum. As long as Advanced offers the best opportunity, it's going to be the one everyone wants to run and as long as that's true you're going to have players of various skill levels all lumped together.
Right. If the reward structures were set up to properly reward time, effort and risk instead of excessively favoring the repetition of the easiest and shortest content possible, high-performance players would seek appropriately difficult content on their own.
There is no need for any "system" to direct players to appropriate difficulty levels. Simply having content of all difficulties available and rewards appropriate to each one such that players will naturally want to play as hard as they are able to instead of curbstomping babymode over and over again.
Not really a dissenting thread, just exposes that there's two sides here;
Those who think S13 was an unmitigated disaster of epic proportions that ruined the game for them, and those who admit some issues but generally are willing to move forward.
I am of the opinion that the changes happened, they were bound to happen someday. You either deal with them and adapt to them to keep playing, or you give up and leave.
The situation is out of our hands.
To some extent I've enjoyed using items i'd considered not worth it, because they either got buffed, or because OP alternatives are now not so vital. It's almost like some aspects of the game were reinvented, giving new challenges to have ago at.
I'm amazed this thread still open till these days. If this was as bad as DR this would have been closed down in a heartbeat for flaming/trolling like many were back in that day.
Back in the day laughingtrendy would not put up with any dissenting threads.
Na, they are scartching thier heads too much for that and need to know what went wrong in S13.
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The real issue is that Advanced is the only queue difficulty that most players are interested in. They give the best reward/effort/risk ratio and are therefore problematic since they appeal to players on all ends of the skill spectrum. As long as Advanced offers the best opportunity, it's going to be the one everyone wants to run and as long as that's true you're going to have players of various skill levels all lumped together.
This is very true too. Wouldn't even mind when all different queues levels paid out the same (except for Elite, perhaps: which deservedly should pay out a bit more). Not me, but this may draw Advanced players to Normal queues, though.
In the end, no system is going to be fool proof. The only way to guarantee yourself a balanced skill level is to play in a pre-made team. Playing in public queues are always going to be a randomized experience. The honest truth is that the only viable solution for this issue is for people to simply realize that this is a fact that is highly unlikely to ever change.
I fear you are right. The matching system might have helped; but yeah, I don't think we have enough ppl for that any more (like if an Elite queue should still pop for tunebreaker et al., the pool of available players would really need to be very big).
I still think the empty queues are why Cryptic invented the Endeavor system:
Lead Dev: "Guys, I think we need to face that our DR greed has all but killed the queues."
Other Devs: "A-greed."
Lead Dev: "And nerfing all those goodies people paid for into the ground, guess we underestimated that people are not so much interested in 'the long term survivability' of the game when the price comes straight out of the pockets of those we roped into doing the whole Upgrade Spiel."
Lead Dev: "So, the queues are dead. Let's think of a system then where the players no longer really need to rely on others, and can just focus on individual achievements. Any one any suggestions?"
Other Dev: "Endeavor System?!"
Lead Dev: "Zactly!"
.
Back in the day laughingtrendy would not put up with any dissenting threads.
I felt she was overly heavy handed.
Ambassadorkael has done a great job since he took over the reigns. I feel the mods are more engaging and highlight when you step out of line and give fair warning for infractions. No random bans for no reason.
I've happy with the current moderation. Feels far more user friendly than in the past.
Any who lets get back on track.
Sportsmanship has been touted. DPS Player/Weekend Warrior/Casual Player. When you PUG it is a random grouping of people and what you get is what you get. Pick up 4 bad players thats a PUG, pick up a DPS monster thats a PUG. Its a public queue and everyone is entitled to queue for it. There's no sporting issue to contest.
I don't hear Football teams moan before kickoff about Messi or Ronaldo being in the opposite team or in the same team and how unsporting it is because they are on another level.
This has been answered and the answer is raise your game.
Hello rubber banding my old friend, time to bounce around the battlezone again, where are all my bug reports going?, out of love with this game I am falling, As Cryptic fail to acknowledge a problem exists, Shakes an angry fist, And from Support all I'm hearing are the sounds of silence.
If you're going to respond to points I make, please address me specifically, rather than vaguelly talking about me in the third person, as if my points are unreasonable rantings. We may disagree with each other, but we can still have a civilized discussion.
I did this because I thought there was a rule about naming and shaming and I didn't want to do that.
Now, if you're going to make statements like this:
So if I'm not "allowed" to "ruin" other people's fun by bringing in my optimized and familiar ship, it's going to ruin my fun,
it rather suggests that your fun consists of being allowed to ruin other people's fun? That's what you're saying (maybe not whay you mean, but definitely what you said)
Or maybe my use of quotes to highlight that some definitions are not what I would use to describe them, but rather your own words was an effort to point out the holes in your argument. Exactly like you did to me right here, because this was half me paraphrasing you. So I'm glad you caught the irony in this statement. Because in order for me to follow your definition of fun, you would have to ruin mine.
Nowhere have I said that DPS Chasing shouldn't be allowed period, but I do believe that it should be kept to private matches, private queues and regular mission content where it can't spoil anyone else's experience by preventing them from engaging. Like I illustrated the other day: A sportsman using a performance enhancing supplement, is not presenting their opponent with a fair contest, and in any such sporting event, invigilators and umpires will step in and take actions. People discovered to be using performance enhancing methods, have even been stripped of olympic medals, and in sime instances, banned from future competition. Apply that framework to this scenario, and all that's happened, is the performance enhancements have been taken away: No one's lost awards received nor been banned from future participation.
Ah, but you compared proper shipbuilding to performance enhancing drugs, and then ignored when I did the same thing from the other side. standard ships being compared to playing sports on crutches. The difference is, I didn't say it was an Olympic athlete, I said a High school player. Someone not the best, but still finds fun in the practice, conditioning, and even teamwork required to play a sport. Dare I say it, if I wanted to play a sport with the body I have now, I would drag down someone who put in this kind of practice, conditioning, and teamwork who was on my team. If I wanted to contribute, how would I do so with my out of shape body? Hmm? Hypothetically, if you were dragging down your team in a sports match because you were out of shape, would that not be the same as these players under 10k DPS in content that's designed around doing damage? I'm willing to bet most if not ALL of the peak DPS records were made in pre-built teams. Where everyone was going in with the idea of trying to beat the records, and if not directly doing so, supporting those who were. Doing exactly what you want them to do. The difference, is that you want them to not take ships conditioned for more performance into public games. Which is more like asking a high school/college player, to not join pick up games at the park, because he's "better than everyone else there", solely because he puts in the practice and makes sure his body is in proper shape.
Is the information available about the game lacking? Absolutely. Do you remember the unofficial GTA Walkthrough books which were available? STO needs something like that which people can peruse at their leisure and refer to as needbe.
There are places where such information is readily available, but you have to look for it outside the game. Something Inside the game would be better.
I'd address the rest of your post, but I feel I've covered the rest either in my post above, or it's been addressed by others in the thread making my speaking on it redundant.
Truthfully, I feel the problem lies in game design, where the objectives are 80%(guesstimated) damage based. If we had missions more like Days of Doom where some of the roles include things that didn't require you to do damage, and still rewarded appropriately for the efforts and time invested. Then both sides would be able to have fun and enjoy the mission. Sadly, days of doom fails because it doesn't reward appropriately for the effort and time put into the mission.
For what is worth, I am really glad the DPSers got nerfed.
This is a rather ignorant point of view.
Even with adjustments to balance, those who were high DPS folk are going to adapt to the changes and still be high DPS folk. They will do the research, practice and tweak their build as necessary.
Bottom line is, crying for nerfs to those who are better players than you is going to result in those players still being better than you.
That statement only makes sense if you assume that the rebalance was bad over all. there were certain very specific things that got nerfed, and deserved it. the rest of the sweeping changes? enh, some were better than others. Making FBP no longer get a bonus from partgens was another good change IMO.
I think it's time to close this thread. Even a community moderator is engaging in what - from an outside perspective - just looks like trolling. Several people here have argued both for and against what they state throughout this thread, and it just seems to be going further downhill.
There are two very distinct camps, both blaming each other, and a lot of others who seem to be caught in the middle. Sad thing is that it's all about mechanics that Cryptic put in - intentionally or unintentionally. I don't understand why customers have to try to put blame on and attack each other. The decisions everyone is getting worked up over - good or bad - all come from Cryptic (and maybe PW). Kudos or blame all belong there.
Tl;dr: when the system has determined you are, say, a player at Advanced level, you will no longer be allowed to join the same (PUG) queue on Normal.**
Same for Elite queues: once the system finds you sufficiently capable for Elite, then you can only play said queue on Elite, and no longer on Advanced & Normal.
Apart from some of the points already mentioned, I see a problem with groups of friends, e. g. fleetmates, wanting to play a queue together despite being at different strength levels. Yes, you can limit it to PUGs, but I see a lot of potential exploits there, which won't do much harm in themselves, but render the whole system useless.
Also, my main Sci can certainly hold his own in his Scryer. Annoying little bugger he can be. But if he wants to level an escort, well, wrong skills, not precisely the best gear for that. I as a player may be fit for higher end missions. My toon may be fit. But in this combination I may not be.
Pug queues pop on elites only once every blue moon - if you're lucky.
I am not certain whether under a system like meimeitoo's, or something similar, that won't change - if all the long standing players with higher abilities and/or gear cannot pug below elite anymore, they may do so. (Or stop pugging)
Yep. Any match-making system requires a very large pool of players to choose from, or you get where we are to date.
I was just imagining a well working match maker and a high enough playerbase to support it. And then I was imagining the rage threads on the forums "how come I am always teamed with all those losers who can't find their own bottoms, haven't been able to complete a queue in days!"
Until you actually address the points I was making, you're just proving my point even further, because if I was actually wrong with anything I said, you, or anyone else, would be able to give an actual counterpoint, not just call double-standard or nitpick phraseology as an excuse to not do so.
As others have mentioned, it is not the job of a community moderator to address specific points in a discussion - unless they feel like doing so. It is their job to watch out that etiquette and forum rules are in place. You can make a perfectly valid and polite post with the stupidest of arguments, or you can be completely right about something will all the actually most convincing proofs for it and still being obnoxious. It is a moderator's job to change the behavior of the latter, not the former.
Even with adjustments to balance, those who were high DPS folk are going to adapt to the changes and still be high DPS folk. They will do the research, practice and tweak their build as necessary.
Bottom line is, crying for nerfs to those who are better players than you is going to result in those players still being better than you.
The intention of a nerf isn't necessarily to change the ranking of the players though. Unless some really broken stuff gets taken out which some abused. The intention may be to change the level of competitiveness the outliers have if compared to others. If we're talking DPS alone (let's assume other abilities like survivability magically appear under this number as well), there is a difference of the extremes being 500:5; 200:20 or 100:50. In all cases the first player is clearly better. In all cases he will win a direct matchup. But the third version may be approaching a game, while the first one is a matter of seconds. Or, if teamed, in the last case the worse player will at least be able to contribute. And while it is true that lower end players also need incentives to up their game, when the gap widens too much there is also none, because what's the difference between contributing .1% or 1%, you're still useless. What's the difference between losing in .5 seconds instead of losing in .2 seconds? And newer players will face this easily. Yes, they should earn their way to the top, like the older ones did. But they should at least be able to be closing in within the expected lifetime of the game.
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Comments
Guess it's time for me to improvise some cannon/sci hybrids on those toons of mine which didn’t have a chance to play NWS yet. I hope TSC and Metal-Channels thrive with players who want to run the map over the weekend.
Oh boy and I really hope cryptic brings back the “original” and not some twisted echo of the wonderful map it was.
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From the sound of it, seems like a new map (although I haven't heard a 100% clear confirmation yet). Hopefully will be at least as good as the old one.
U.S.S. Buteo Regalis - Brigid Multi-Mission Surveillance Explorer build
R.R.W. Ri Maajon - Khopesh Tactical Dreadnought Warbird build
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The Joiner Penalty!
Tl;dr: when the system has determined you are, say, a player at Advanced level, you will no longer be allowed to join the same (PUG) queue on Normal.**
Same for Elite queues: once the system finds you sufficiently capable for Elite, then you can only play said queue on Elite, and no longer on Advanced & Normal.
**Obviously wouldn't apply to queues that don't have higher versions of themselves.
Except, the new match system was supposed to prevent exactly that! Better players would be matched with better players, and not-so-good players with like-skilled others as well. Problem just is: the match system is a bust, because there are simply not enough people left to properly queue you with your peers: the high DPS-er will 'invade' your PUG, after all, because the system couldn't find enough ppl (in time) of your strength to match you with, and vice versa.
Which is why my Joiner Penalty would likely fail too: matching players requires a graciously filled pool of potential contenders, and the last drop seems to be drained from it already.
Or, another possibility - something goes wrong (very unexpected, isn't it?!), I get flagged as a normal player and I proceed to blow everything up in a matter of seconds, being bored myself and upsetting others.
And what happens if I switch ships? Not all of my builds are capable of doing elites.
U.S.S. Buteo Regalis - Brigid Multi-Mission Surveillance Explorer build
R.R.W. Ri Maajon - Khopesh Tactical Dreadnought Warbird build
My Youtube channel containing STO videos.
Yep. Any match-making system requires a very large pool of players to choose from, or you get where we are to date.
Wow, didn't know that. Hmm, that makes the state of the queues even more deplorable then (if you can't just queue because of 'thin' match-making, but simply because it can't find anyone, period).
P.S. The UI keeps telling you it *is* matching you, though.
While I admire the spirit behind our proposal, I ultimately wouldn't want to see it implemented.
Under your system, once I am 'tagged' as a 'big DPS Guy' or whatever.. I can no longer run Advanced versions of certain queues. The issue is, even though I'm perfectly capable of doing Elites, I don't always WANT to do an Elite Run. Sometimes, I just want to queue up to an Advanced run, get my rewards and get it over with. A game like STO often requires you to run dozens, sometimes even hundreds of runs of certain queues for materials needed for upgrades. Think how much more of a detriment it would be if now you could only get them from Elite Queues which generally take considerably longer then Advanced and can be failed if you get a bad team.
The real issue is that Advanced is the only queue difficulty that most players are interested in. They give the best reward/effort/risk ratio and are therefore problematic since they appeal to players on all ends of the skill spectrum. As long as Advanced offers the best opportunity, it's going to be the one everyone wants to run and as long as that's true you're going to have players of various skill levels all lumped together.
In the end, no system is going to be fool proof. The only way to guarantee yourself a balanced skill level is to play in a pre-made team. Playing in public queues are always going to be a randomized experience. The honest truth is that the only viable solution for this issue is for people to simply realize that this is a fact that is highly unlikely to ever change.
I have been, and continue to be against any system that tells certain groups of players that they cannot play certain content. And yes, I'm against it even knowing it would keep 8k DPS players out of Advanced queues and ultimately benefit me. I just understand that in most cases, that 8k guy can't get what they need any other way and my having to carry them is an condition that I'm prepared for when I queue up publicly.
I want to be clear, I am not trying to bash on your idea at all, I simply disagree with it. I believe your idea is proposed with the best of intention, I just see problems with it. I have nothing but respect for your opinion.
"I was here before you, I will be here after you are gone. I am here, regardless of your acknowledgement or acceptance..." - The Truth
Until you actually address the points I was making, you're just proving my point even further, because if I was actually wrong with anything I said, you, or anyone else, would be able to give an actual counterpoint, not just call double-standard or nitpick phraseology as an excuse to not do so.
"I was here before you, I will be here after you are gone. I am here, regardless of your acknowledgement or acceptance..." - The Truth
There have been plenty of people who have tried to address your points, but you have simply dismissed them, cause reasons. You have trampled down all points other people have made and refused to answer *those*.
Really, to quote mmps1 earlier, your posts are terrible - that's the most specific feedback you seem to understand.
U.S.S. Buteo Regalis - Brigid Multi-Mission Surveillance Explorer build
R.R.W. Ri Maajon - Khopesh Tactical Dreadnought Warbird build
My Youtube channel containing STO videos.
Np.
He has done nothing of the sort.
He called you on your hypocrisy and cited specific examples of such. You have countered by simply not accepting any of his arguments as valid. Just because he's a moderator does not mean he has to blindly agree with everyone/anyone.
He has attacked only your ideas and not you personally. You're deflecting on to him the fact that you cannot defend your own argument.
l don't know.
l really don't know what l'm about to say, except l have a feeling about it.
That l must repeat the words that come without my knowledge.'
No, your behavior is not justified. Yes, I am a community moderator, and I'm not addressing your points, because I'm not here to address your argument. I'm here addressing your behavior in this thread. I've "cherry picked" lines that speak specifically to said behavior. What? I didn't post a meme so you can't tell when you're being moderated?
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Back in the day laughingtrendy would not put up with any dissenting threads.
Dude, give it a rest. The mod its clearly on their side. In fact on a few pages back a dpser result in naming and such and he got away with it. If myself would to be calling out on DPSers of been a lame butthurt circlejerk, wich is true in this thread, I would be modded right away. So leave it man...
For what is worth, I am really glad the DPSers got nerfed. It was their fault but not for what sarcasticly was stated in here. You see, every powercreep, overpowered stuff was treated like a godsent and "eat" it for higher numbers, even if that made the game more and more imbalanced. Like I remember with the embassy consoles. Right after the fist temper with them, when they were made into explosions, even the lowest common sense would tell you that they are overperforming. But DPSers were glad they got away with it, not thinking longterm. I mean its not right that an cheap-TRIBBLE console to be better then some prime expensive lobi items, like the BIC for example... and ship to be valued by how many sci console slots they have... I told Cryptic they were shooting themselves in the foot with this... And this was the case with many overpowered things. Of course this is also Cryptic to blame, but not entirely. If feedback would've been given, things reported and insisted and such, maybe things wouldnt been cut off all at once like it was now.
And some things WERE broken, not matter how you view it, like Feedback Pulse for example. I am not saying all DPSers were using them, of course. But the majority of them were...
There is no need for any "system" to direct players to appropriate difficulty levels. Simply having content of all difficulties available and rewards appropriate to each one such that players will naturally want to play as hard as they are able to instead of curbstomping babymode over and over again.
Those who think S13 was an unmitigated disaster of epic proportions that ruined the game for them, and those who admit some issues but generally are willing to move forward.
I am of the opinion that the changes happened, they were bound to happen someday. You either deal with them and adapt to them to keep playing, or you give up and leave.
The situation is out of our hands.
To some extent I've enjoyed using items i'd considered not worth it, because they either got buffed, or because OP alternatives are now not so vital. It's almost like some aspects of the game were reinvented, giving new challenges to have ago at.
Na, they are scartching thier heads too much for that and need to know what went wrong in S13.
Looking for a fun PvE fleet? Join us at Omega Combat Division today.
This is very true too. Wouldn't even mind when all different queues levels paid out the same (except for Elite, perhaps: which deservedly should pay out a bit more). Not me, but this may draw Advanced players to Normal queues, though.
I fear you are right. The matching system might have helped; but yeah, I don't think we have enough ppl for that any more (like if an Elite queue should still pop for tunebreaker et al., the pool of available players would really need to be very big).
I still think the empty queues are why Cryptic invented the Endeavor system:
Lead Dev: "Guys, I think we need to face that our DR greed has all but killed the queues."
Other Devs: "A-greed."
Lead Dev: "And nerfing all those goodies people paid for into the ground, guess we underestimated that people are not so much interested in 'the long term survivability' of the game when the price comes straight out of the pockets of those we roped into doing the whole Upgrade Spiel."
Lead Dev: "So, the queues are dead. Let's think of a system then where the players no longer really need to rely on others, and can just focus on individual achievements. Any one any suggestions?"
Other Dev: "Endeavor System?!"
Lead Dev: "Zactly!"
I felt she was overly heavy handed.
Ambassadorkael has done a great job since he took over the reigns. I feel the mods are more engaging and highlight when you step out of line and give fair warning for infractions. No random bans for no reason.
I've happy with the current moderation. Feels far more user friendly than in the past.
Any who lets get back on track.
Sportsmanship has been touted. DPS Player/Weekend Warrior/Casual Player. When you PUG it is a random grouping of people and what you get is what you get. Pick up 4 bad players thats a PUG, pick up a DPS monster thats a PUG. Its a public queue and everyone is entitled to queue for it. There's no sporting issue to contest.
I don't hear Football teams moan before kickoff about Messi or Ronaldo being in the opposite team or in the same team and how unsporting it is because they are on another level.
This has been answered and the answer is raise your game.
Hello rubber banding my old friend, time to bounce around the battlezone again, where are all my bug reports going?, out of love with this game I am falling, As Cryptic fail to acknowledge a problem exists, Shakes an angry fist, And from Support all I'm hearing are the sounds of silence.
I did this because I thought there was a rule about naming and shaming and I didn't want to do that.
Or maybe my use of quotes to highlight that some definitions are not what I would use to describe them, but rather your own words was an effort to point out the holes in your argument. Exactly like you did to me right here, because this was half me paraphrasing you. So I'm glad you caught the irony in this statement. Because in order for me to follow your definition of fun, you would have to ruin mine.
Ah, but you compared proper shipbuilding to performance enhancing drugs, and then ignored when I did the same thing from the other side. standard ships being compared to playing sports on crutches. The difference is, I didn't say it was an Olympic athlete, I said a High school player. Someone not the best, but still finds fun in the practice, conditioning, and even teamwork required to play a sport. Dare I say it, if I wanted to play a sport with the body I have now, I would drag down someone who put in this kind of practice, conditioning, and teamwork who was on my team. If I wanted to contribute, how would I do so with my out of shape body? Hmm? Hypothetically, if you were dragging down your team in a sports match because you were out of shape, would that not be the same as these players under 10k DPS in content that's designed around doing damage? I'm willing to bet most if not ALL of the peak DPS records were made in pre-built teams. Where everyone was going in with the idea of trying to beat the records, and if not directly doing so, supporting those who were. Doing exactly what you want them to do. The difference, is that you want them to not take ships conditioned for more performance into public games. Which is more like asking a high school/college player, to not join pick up games at the park, because he's "better than everyone else there", solely because he puts in the practice and makes sure his body is in proper shape.
There are places where such information is readily available, but you have to look for it outside the game. Something Inside the game would be better.
I'd address the rest of your post, but I feel I've covered the rest either in my post above, or it's been addressed by others in the thread making my speaking on it redundant.
Truthfully, I feel the problem lies in game design, where the objectives are 80%(guesstimated) damage based. If we had missions more like Days of Doom where some of the roles include things that didn't require you to do damage, and still rewarded appropriately for the efforts and time invested. Then both sides would be able to have fun and enjoy the mission. Sadly, days of doom fails because it doesn't reward appropriately for the effort and time put into the mission.
My character Tsin'xing
There are two very distinct camps, both blaming each other, and a lot of others who seem to be caught in the middle. Sad thing is that it's all about mechanics that Cryptic put in - intentionally or unintentionally. I don't understand why customers have to try to put blame on and attack each other. The decisions everyone is getting worked up over - good or bad - all come from Cryptic (and maybe PW). Kudos or blame all belong there.
Apart from some of the points already mentioned, I see a problem with groups of friends, e. g. fleetmates, wanting to play a queue together despite being at different strength levels. Yes, you can limit it to PUGs, but I see a lot of potential exploits there, which won't do much harm in themselves, but render the whole system useless.
Also, my main Sci can certainly hold his own in his Scryer. Annoying little bugger he can be. But if he wants to level an escort, well, wrong skills, not precisely the best gear for that. I as a player may be fit for higher end missions. My toon may be fit. But in this combination I may not be.
Although
I am not certain whether under a system like meimeitoo's, or something similar, that won't change - if all the long standing players with higher abilities and/or gear cannot pug below elite anymore, they may do so. (Or stop pugging)
I was just imagining a well working match maker and a high enough playerbase to support it. And then I was imagining the rage threads on the forums "how come I am always teamed with all those losers who can't find their own bottoms, haven't been able to complete a queue in days!"
As others have mentioned, it is not the job of a community moderator to address specific points in a discussion - unless they feel like doing so. It is their job to watch out that etiquette and forum rules are in place. You can make a perfectly valid and polite post with the stupidest of arguments, or you can be completely right about something will all the actually most convincing proofs for it and still being obnoxious. It is a moderator's job to change the behavior of the latter, not the former.
The intention of a nerf isn't necessarily to change the ranking of the players though. Unless some really broken stuff gets taken out which some abused. The intention may be to change the level of competitiveness the outliers have if compared to others. If we're talking DPS alone (let's assume other abilities like survivability magically appear under this number as well), there is a difference of the extremes being 500:5; 200:20 or 100:50. In all cases the first player is clearly better. In all cases he will win a direct matchup. But the third version may be approaching a game, while the first one is a matter of seconds. Or, if teamed, in the last case the worse player will at least be able to contribute. And while it is true that lower end players also need incentives to up their game, when the gap widens too much there is also none, because what's the difference between contributing .1% or 1%, you're still useless. What's the difference between losing in .5 seconds instead of losing in .2 seconds? And newer players will face this easily. Yes, they should earn their way to the top, like the older ones did. But they should at least be able to be closing in within the expected lifetime of the game.