The guy who held highest DPS record for quite a long time has one video series that lasts for 6h where he explains various mechanics behind DPS and how he does those numbers, and another one lasting 10h from same guy. Also there are various other sources where other people explain how *they* do their runs and numbers.
All high DPS runs have parser logs that everyone can access (provided they have a parser installed), and most have videos showing the run where they did their record (many of those also got posted to forums).
I wouldn't call that "unknown knowledge", more like lazy players who can't **** themselves to check stuff up and learn a bit.
And this is a good summation of why some of the changes happened. If you can't figure that stuff out from reading tooltips in-game, it's broken. And yes, anything that requires reading guides posted to youtube IS uncommon knowledge. Especially stuff related to overcapping, which was not only something the game suggested didn't even exist, but also turns out to have been a bug and not intended to work that way.
The core problem with your logic is the assumption that either you're a DPSer or a loser. Seriously, you basically said that only people who read guides posted to the internet are actually trying to play the game well... yeah, great job demonstrating why a lot of people think of the DPS leagues as being run by elitist snobs.
Rebalance didn't make anything clearer, quite vice versa. You still can't get *full* knowledge by just reading in-game tooltips.
However, I never said you *have* to reach for outside help to be good (after all, how did the first person become good enough to write those guides, certainly game/devs didn't help that). It's just easier to become better if do so, because figuring stuff out yourself is in some cases lots of hard work and guessing, something your average player wouldn't prefer to do over simply blasting enemy ships up.
> @silverlobes#2676 said:
> tunebreaker wrote: »
>
> Yeah, it's really silly to read how some ppl still think DPSers were relying on *broken* mechanics and exploits to do their numbers. Shows how clueless that part of playerbase is.
>
>
>
> I don't really give a damn what they were relying on to get the results, the fact is, they were putting out more damage, on an individual basis, than a map needed, and as a result, when going into random pugs or battlesones, melting everything before others could even get a piece of the action! Is that fair? Is that sportsman-like conduct? Or is that just being a show-off waving an epeen around?
>
> And what's been the result? A nerf which hit everyone, and arguably, hit the lower-end of the spectrum harder than those at the top, because they have less of a margin to take the hit.
>
> Like I said, I've never run a parse, so I've no idea what kind of DPS output I had, but here's the basic set up from memory...
>
> 7xMk XII vr Polaron turrets @ 132(estimated) DPS per turret.
> Wide-Angle Quantum Torpedo launcher, firing with Spread II. @ 416.4(estimated DPS)
> Temporal Disentanglement Suite doing +0-2.5% Critical Chance. +0-10% Critical Severity.
> Assimilated module doing +0.92% Critical Chance. +9.2% Critical Severity.
> Chronometric Capacitor +20% Polaron Damage.
> Red Matter Capacitor doing +25 All Power Settings for 20 sec
> 1xMk XII vr Polaron Phase Modulator @ +??%
> Solanae Impluse Engine doing +3.8 Weapon Power Setting
>
> Hardly anything spectacular, but it was always able to handle Red Alerts fairly well with maybe a couple of respawns. Yesterday, significantly more respawns, (admitedly some due to pilot error) but also significantly less durability in the resilience of the build itself.
>
> Not enough to make me quit the game, but enough to be irritated that what was, to my purposes, a pretty adequate and durable build, had been noticeably diminished.
>
> Any why had this happened?
>
> Because a bunch of DPS Meisters couldn't keep from showing off their toys to the point that enough people started complaining about it that the devs did something about it.
>
> Bravo, DPS epeens, bravo
>
> *Slow Clapping*
Lol well this thread is certainly pushing out contenders for that most ignorant forum post title. Good effort, pretty much a perfect terrible post.
Care to give specific feedback, or is this just a hit-and-run trolling?
Your post essentially was "I don't use a parser or DPS-build, nor have I ever done so, but I'm the perfect person to tell you all about the DPSers and how they are ultimate evil in the game". Kinda silly, don't you think?
No, I don't think so, because I don't need to do either of those things, to be aware of the commentary surrounding the rebalance, the reasons why it's happened, and the impacts it's had on both the player base, and the game mechanic (unless everyone here who posting is simply spewing gibberish like chimps at typewriters)
I pointed out that I don't use a parser, to highlight that I have no idea what kind of DPS my build puts out. For all I know, it could actually be good. I doubt it, but I don't know.
What does your (no irony or sarcasm intended) expert opinion tell you about the output of the build I've been using? Where on the performance curve would you place it?
I'm not using a DOS build, because I'm not interested in vaping my way through a game mission, nor in chasing figures on a repetetive instance like ISA, where everyone knows exactly what they're doing, and there's no skill involved (Like how the old computers at school had a function which timed how fast someone typed the alphabet. Once they key positions were memorized, there was absolutely no skill involved, just repetetive fingerstrike patterns, trying to go faster and faster each time. That's no longer fun, but obsession)
The point still stands, that had DPS Meisters not made people so sick of their behaviour, that they started complaining about it on forum, then the devs wouldn't have instigated the rebalance, which has clearly had impacts on people's builds, and make people walk away from the game.
I've not once said that people shouldn't be able to have DPS Builds. I know people put time and money into achieving them. That's fine. But don't bring them into random pugs, knowing full well that doing so makes the instance a waste of time for the other player(s)
"I fight for the Users!" - Tron
"I was here before you, I will be here after you are gone. I am here, regardless of your acknowledgement or acceptance..." - The Truth
> @silverlobes#2676 said:
> mmps1 wrote: »
>
> I did give you feedback. Your post is terrible.
>
>
>
> Just trolling then. Duly noted
No, your post was really terrible. What's hard to comprehend there?
I asked if you could provide specific feedback for that opinion. What's hard to comprehend there? You failed to do so. Stating something, doesn't make it so. That you refuse to provide any specifics, shows that you're just trolling, so not worth further attention.
"I fight for the Users!" - Tron
"I was here before you, I will be here after you are gone. I am here, regardless of your acknowledgement or acceptance..." - The Truth
I've refrained from posting here thus far, trying to figure out what to say to get my opinion across. Yes this post is my opinion, you have every right to disagree, it doesn't make either side right or wrong, this is all a game after all.
My view is that some aspects of S13 have been staggeringly bad to the game as a whole. The main culprits i would list as:
The new queue UI/system - because all it's really done is push people away from TRYING to get into missions or premades. If you have to fight with a UI that's 3x more complex that the old version and even more confusing then i'd wager a lot of players just won't bother. Me personally; I've got better things to do that fight with the UI to get a premade team of friends made only to loose one in the map transfer, or to sit waiting for 10+ mins for an ISA pug to pop for a quick blast.
The forced use of PVP, something that generally is not really appreciated by the players. I know full well that the console market is where this is aimed at. But the fact is people on PC don't want PVP, because it just turns into a p2w gank-fest for the small minority who can afford to keep up with the arms race.
Now on to the elephant in the room now, the balance pass, or as some people call it "nerf pass".
My personally view is in line with several posters on here, it was WELL overdue and fixed some mechanics and items/abilities that were performing well over what they should have been capable of.
I'm fully aware that a lot of people have thrown a major tantrum over the changes, talk of build being ruined, the end of the world, quitting the game etc.
Sure it might have meant some builds were no longer as effective as pre-S13, but this sort of game change is a fact of life for a huge number of MMO's and other online games. When things get stale and stagnant then the game just becomes the same old thing day in day out. The dev's needs to update things occasionally to keep people on their toes. Just because you have a killer build doesn't mean it'll always stay that way, be prepared to have to fiddle with it should things change in the future.
Especially so if the build makes heavy use of mechanics or interactions that are over-performing, or just plain broken. Was it right for embassy sci consoles to be SO vital to the top DPS build that they essentially ceased to be seen as sci consoles at all and made anything with 5 sci slots pretty much a 5+ tac console ship? I'd say no.
Was it right that immunity's could be stacked up endlessly as to make oneself effectively immortal? Again no.
But all that is besides the point really, things changed and you either deal with it or move on. If you build became less effective with equipment X on it, then go try something new to slot instead. Or maybe give a different type of build a go, you might learn something or find something you'd never considered a real blast.
Some of my builds suffered a bit, but it was no big issue. I just adapted what i could or accepted that some were maybe now not up to elite content so I take them to normal or advanced runs instead. I'm not too bothered by rewards, or mission lengths, or time-gates; I just want to fly round space in my favourite ships shooting things. If i need to run a normal queue to do that in a crazy experimental build then i'll accept that.
I think rage-quitting or constantly whining about your builds being ruined is poor showing personally. It's a game, half the fun is getting things to work the way you want them too. If that is no longer what STO provides for you then perhaps it's time to take
a break for a while or move on.
I've refrained from posting here thus far, trying to figure out what to say to get my opinion across. Yes this post is my opinion, you have every right to disagree, it doesn't make either side right or wrong, this is all a game after all.
My view is that some aspects of S13 have been staggeringly bad to the game as a whole. The main culprits i would list as:
The new queue UI/system - because all it's really done is push people away from TRYING to get into missions or premades. If you have to fight with a UI that's 3x more complex that the old version and even more confusing then i'd wager a lot of players just won't bother. Me personally; I've got better things to do that fight with the UI to get a premade team of friends made only to loose one in the map transfer, or to sit waiting for 10+ mins for an ISA pug to pop for a quick blast.
The forced use of PVP, something that generally is not really appreciated by the players. I know full well that the console market is where this is aimed at. But the fact is people on PC don't want PVP, because it just turns into a p2w gank-fest for the small minority who can afford to keep up with the arms race.
Now on to the elephant in the room now, the balance pass, or as some people call it "nerf pass".
My personally view is in line with several posters on here, it was WELL overdue and fixed some mechanics and items/abilities that were performing well over what they should have been capable of.
I'm fully aware that a lot of people have thrown a major tantrum over the changes, talk of build being ruined, the end of the world, quitting the game etc.
Sure it might have meant some builds were no longer as effective as pre-S13, but this sort of game change is a fact of life for a huge number of MMO's and other online games. When things get stale and stagnant then the game just becomes the same old thing day in day out. The dev's needs to update things occasionally to keep people on their toes. Just because you have a killer build doesn't mean it'll always stay that way, be prepared to have to fiddle with it should things change in the future.
Especially so if the build makes heavy use of mechanics or interactions that are over-performing, or just plain broken. Was it right for embassy sci consoles to be SO vital to the top DPS build that they essentially ceased to be seen as sci consoles at all and made anything with 5 sci slots pretty much a 5+ tac console ship? I'd say no.
Was it right that immunity's could be stacked up endlessly as to make oneself effectively immortal? Again no.
But all that is besides the point really, things changed and you either deal with it or move on. If you build became less effective with equipment X on it, then go try something new to slot instead. Or maybe give a different type of build a go, you might learn something or find something you'd never considered a real blast.
Some of my builds suffered a bit, but it was no big issue. I just adapted what i could or accepted that some were maybe now not up to elite content so I take them to normal or advanced runs instead. I'm not too bothered by rewards, or mission lengths, or time-gates; I just want to fly round space in my favourite ships shooting things. If i need to run a normal queue to do that in a crazy experimental build then i'll accept that.
I think rage-quitting or constantly whining about your builds being ruined is poor showing personally. It's a game, half the fun is getting things to work the way you want them too. If that is no longer what STO provides for you then perhaps it's time to take
a break for a while or move on.
Constantly whining?? Seeing as yesterday was the first time I've been able to get in game to actually fly a mission since e13 and the nerf hit, this is the First Time I've reported my findings on the effect it had on my build (and I've also acknowledged that a fair bit of the poor show, was my own rustiness) Others who have made comment about the impacts to their builds, are equally free to do so. The situation has happened, and people are clearly annoyed about it, so why should they not voice that frustration?
Like you say, half the fun is getting things to work the way you want them too. Well, thanks to the rebalance, things don't work the way people wanted them too.
Personally, I feel my build still performed perfectly adequately on a regular pve mission, so I likely won't try slotting anything else to try and bring it up to the standard it was at prior to the rebalance. I can deal with it as it is (I was actually more concerned about the possible impacts of updates to the graphic settings on my Space Barbies) but that doesn't make me oblivious to the change happening, and it doesn't prevent me from understanding why other people would be pissed off about their builds (probably way costlier than mine) being nerfed, especially when that nerfing only happened because of how DPS Meisters were behaving toward other players.
By your own admission, it wasn't right that embassy consoles were being used as they were, but at the end of the day, someone spends the respurces to get them, fine, that's their choice. But to then take those builds into random pugs, and making the other players irrelevant, to borrow your phrase, I think is poor showing.
"I fight for the Users!" - Tron
"I was here before you, I will be here after you are gone. I am here, regardless of your acknowledgement or acceptance..." - The Truth
Yeah, Sul, nerfs are fine until they don't affect you, right? I remember you being extremely upset in Discord after GW got nerfed. Also, remember how you recently took a break from game cause things got too stale and there was nothing to do? Didn't remember you having similar problems before S13.
It's a valid advice to give to ppl to just update their builds and move on, but that rebalance wrecked the fun of several ppl a lot, to the point of no return. Why is Nirett's fun with tanking wrong (to give you a familiar example)?
Also, if too many players give up after a change, you can't shift full blame to players and saying they are just simply stupid for not trying enough. I assume there are quite a few ppl who have simply got enough with Cryptic meddling with their builds, while assuring "they retain investments".
While balance is a noble goal to have, I know *I* am not willing to sacrifice healthy queues for that.
And about "adapt or move on", seems like many players already chose the second option. Might've been their loss, but it's also ours.
Yeah, Sul, nerfs are fine until they don't affect you, right? I remember you being extremely upset in Discord after GW got nerfed.
Also, remember how you recently took a break from game cause things got too stale and there was nothing to do? Didn't remember you having similar problems before S13.
It's a valid advice to give to ppl to just update their builds and move on, but that rebalance wrecked the fun of several ppl a lot, to the point of no return. Why is Nirett's fun with tanking wrong (to give you a familiar example)?
Also, if too many players give up after a change, you can't shift full blame to players and saying they are just simply stupid for not trying enough. I assume there are quite a few ppl who have simply got enough with Cryptic meddling with their builds, while assuring "they retain investments".
While balance is a noble goal to have, I know *I* am not willing to sacrifice healthy queues for that.
And about "adapt or move on", seems like many players already chose the second option. Might've been their loss, but it's also ours.
Yeah the GW adjustments were a bummer at first but i adapted and actually managed to get a build that was better after S13 than before it, just by trying some new ways of putting it together.
Also, yes i took a break from the game because it felt stale. Not because my builds got ruined, i'd just run out of things to do and fancied a change in what i did with my spare time. By the time i took a break i'd mastered all the spec trees, all the doff commendations, done all my crafting schools to an acceptable level and finished all the reputations.
I came back for Risa when new content (although only seasonal) was introduced.
As for wrecking people's fun, well that's subjective. Nobody is saying anyone's way of playing is wrong here, it's just that certain means of building a ship or flying one needed to reworking post S13 to get the best from them. I'd sooner need to redo a build than to continue using and relying upon it with potentially broken and unbalanced items and abilities.
The players who chose to move on made their call, it's in their hands. New players will move up to fill their boots eventually. I don't think the game is dying, i think those players who's time it was to move on departed. Provided the de team can keep adding new and interesting content to the game (missions, galaxy expansions, exploration system (?)) then i think it should continue a few years i hope.
At the end of the day no point staying if it's not working for you anymore.
Yeah, Sul, nerfs are fine until they don't affect you, right? I remember you being extremely upset in Discord after GW got nerfed.
Also, remember how you recently took a break from game cause things got too stale and there was nothing to do? Didn't remember you having similar problems before S13.
It's a valid advice to give to ppl to just update their builds and move on, but that rebalance wrecked the fun of several ppl a lot, to the point of no return. Why is Nirett's fun with tanking wrong (to give you a familiar example)?
Also, if too many players give up after a change, you can't shift full blame to players and saying they are just simply stupid for not trying enough. I assume there are quite a few ppl who have simply got enough with Cryptic meddling with their builds, while assuring "they retain investments".
While balance is a noble goal to have, I know *I* am not willing to sacrifice healthy queues for that.
And about "adapt or move on", seems like many players already chose the second option. Might've been their loss, but it's also ours.
(Emphasis mine) Well you and another poster basically claimed that Lucy was lazy for not being able to keep up with DPS monsters - that she and average Joe should try harder and learn how to play the game. Isn't that also blaming the players for decisions Cryptic made (specifically, the decision to let things get out of hand in the first place)?
The game has to be fun for everyone. Sometimes that means that players lose some of their investments because you can't guarantee that newer players can enjoy the game if you, at the same time, have to ensure that the older players with heavy investments never lose out on any change that is made. It's simply not realistic to assume that any and all investments made and builds built will always retain their value, that's also something players will just have to accept.
Lastly, to get back to the 'lazy Lucy' and information provided in-game vs. outside of it in general: would it really be that great if 'lazy' Lucy also became a DPS monster and you end up with 5 players each doing over 50k or even 100k DPS on a map that's built to only sustain a fraction of that?
At some point things just have to be corrected. An empty queue list is not what I want to see, but a queue list that's actually acting like a DOFF or Admiralty system where just a handful of clicks get you the reward in mere seconds isn't exactly enjoyable either.
Which is why (to remain a bit constructive here) I'd like to see them implement solo or 3-man queues ASAP, as well as a rebalancing of the rewards and a shift of content that moves from just 'kill stuff' towards more different goals within the same mission.
If done together, such content can be made more rewarding, it'll be more often playable and it will promote diversity.
The forced use of PVP, something that generally is not really appreciated by the players. I know full well that the console market is where this is aimed at. But the fact is people on PC don't want PVP, because it just turns into a p2w gank-fest for the small minority who can afford to keep up with the arms race.
That's really all about the implementation. If (big if) a matchmaking system works, players will find other players at their level. If you're in it for the enjoyment of PvP, they get a somewhat level playing field and can do so. If you're in it to win it (most of the time) and reach the highest ranks, well then you gotta invest. But there's still a place for gazillions of people playing PvP at a lower tier and enjoying it. Theres hordes of game sites of all kind where this works - granted, you cannot buy your way up on most of them as you can here. But also in real life, say magic tournaments. Sure, there's the big spenders with all the expensive cards they need for their build, but there's also a lot of people just playing their decks and having fun.
My mother was an epohh and my father smelled of tulaberries
The warped rationale behind the S13 nerfs goes pretty much like this: "5% of the population owns 95% of all wealth. Something had to be done! So we now cut everyone's income in half."
And the Endeavor System is basically Cryptic's way of admitting the queues are dead now. Tried to queue for CCA again: can't be done any more (unless you're willing to wait 20-30 minutes). So, I tinker a bit with my ship visuals and such, but, at some time, I really want to queue up again, you know!?
I know, DOOM threads are verboten, but dangit, things aren't looking good.
The warped rationale behind the S13 nerfs goes pretty much like this: "5% of the population owns 95% of all wealth. Something had to be done! So we now cut everyone's income in half."
Except this is a complete and total lie as the people on the lower end saw no real changed to their DPS, as the changes were all targeted to gear and power combos used only by the high end DPSers.
I can't comment on any change to my DPS output, but like I said, I did see a noticeable change in the durability of my main ship, which was nowhere near as regenerative as before the rebalance.
"I fight for the Users!" - Tron
"I was here before you, I will be here after you are gone. I am here, regardless of your acknowledgement or acceptance..." - The Truth
The warped rationale behind the S13 nerfs goes pretty much like this: "5% of the population owns 95% of all wealth. Something had to be done! So we now cut everyone's income in half."
Except this is a complete and total lie as the people on the lower end saw no real changed to their DPS, as the changes were all targeted to gear and power combos used only by the high end DPSers.
Really?! 'people on the lower end' din't use subsystem power and a Leech?! And the 30% BFAW dmg nerf somehow magically skipped the lower end players, right?! I suppose they never used GW either, no?! And they didn't use exploders to beef up their already poor DPS a bit?!
The warped rationale behind the S13 nerfs goes pretty much like this: "5% of the population owns 95% of all wealth. Something had to be done! So we now cut everyone's income in half."
Except this is a complete and total lie as the people on the lower end saw no real changed to their DPS, as the changes were all targeted to gear and power combos used only by the high end DPSers.
Really?! 'people on the lower end' din't use subsystem power and a Leech?! And the 30% BFAW dmg nerf somehow magically skipped the lower end players, right?! I suppose they never used GW either, no?! And they didn't use exploders to beef up their already poor DPS a bit?!
Riiight.
If you are sub 10k...no, no they did not.
When I talk about 'people on the lower end', I think more like 30k minimum. And I consider myself, at barely 51k, pretty much at the lower end of the scale too, as others reportedly do 5-6x more. I once was in 75k too (pre-S13), so, estimates I hear of ppl having lost 40-50% DPS don't really sound all that far-fatched to me (and I wasn't even using exploders).
Star Trek Online Volunteer Community Moderator and Resident She-Wolf
Community Moderators are Unpaid Volunteers and NOT Employees of Gearbox/Cryptic
Views and Opinions May Not Reflect the Views and Opinions of Gearbox/Cryptic
The warped rationale behind the S13 nerfs goes pretty much like this: "5% of the population owns 95% of all wealth. Something had to be done! So we now cut everyone's income in half."
Except this is a complete and total lie as the people on the lower end saw no real changed to their DPS, as the changes were all targeted to gear and power combos used only by the high end DPSers.
Really?! 'people on the lower end' din't use subsystem power and a Leech?! And the 30% BFAW dmg nerf somehow magically skipped the lower end players, right?! I suppose they never used GW either, no?! And they didn't use exploders to beef up their already poor DPS a bit?!
Riiight.
If you are sub 10k...no, no they did not.
When I talk about 'people on the lower end', I think more like 30k minimum. And I consider myself, at barely 51k, pretty much at the lower end of the scale too, as others reportedly do 5-6x more. I once was in 75k too (pre-S13), so, estimates I hear of ppl having lost 40-50% DPS don't really sound all that far-fatched to me (and I wasn't even using exploders).
You do realize that 30k is like the top 20% of the playerbase...right? People in the sub 10k group barely noticed a blip. 50+k is considered high DPS as that is like 90th percentile group.
Like I said, I don't know what my DPS is or was, but I did notice a significant reduction in how quickly the ship healed itself (both in terms of hull and shields)
"I fight for the Users!" - Tron
"I was here before you, I will be here after you are gone. I am here, regardless of your acknowledgement or acceptance..." - The Truth
Personally if PPS is part of the standard teaming process, i'd like to see it scraped.
I couldn't care if i'm playing with subpar players or the highend DPS League guys, I just want the bloody PvE I queued for to pop so I can do what i logged into the game to do and thats PLAY.
Hello rubber banding my old friend, time to bounce around the battlezone again, where are all my bug reports going?, out of love with this game I am falling, As Cryptic fail to acknowledge a problem exists, Shakes an angry fist, And from Support all I'm hearing are the sounds of silence.
This is all a very nice story, but it's missing one crucial element. A map and the enemies on it can only sustain so much damage (per second). For ISA this was once calculated as 15k per player, or 75k DPS in total. When one player can easily do that on his own or twice that amount even (not to mention the absolute top which was approaching 5-6 time that amount) then the rest of the team is redundant.
I'm going to stop you right there. Risian, I know you are probably one of the more level headed players who comment regularly on the forums, so I won't waste your time by picking your post apart piece by piece. So I'll just go ahead and say it. If every player in ISA did 75k, the instance would be over in just under 2 mins. There is no "total" DPS value for those instances. Every player can contribute whatever they are capable of contributing. Now later on you comment that if one player is well
Even if Joe and Lucy manage to pull off between 30-50k (which means, again, that this one Joe or Lucy are already able to fill in half the team on their own), that will still be useless if someone who's doing twice or three times as much damage, kills everything in sight within a few seconds.
I have to disagree with you there sir. The total DPS being put out by those players isn't affected by one player doing massive DPS themselves. If one player does an insane level of DPS, the other players DPS if anything will be bolstered by that player, since that player usually is using debuffs which can be used by the other team members (IE APB, FOMM, Disruptor Breach, etc). There is no reason for anyone really to NOT benefit from a high DPS player in their instance, outside of the old Tholian and Borg RAs where the higher DPS got the more skillpoints. But honestly if you want skillpoints for levelling, it's easier to farm Argala or the Tau Dewa patrols.
I don't really give a damn what they were relying on to get the results, the fact is, they were putting out more damage, on an individual basis, than a map needed, and as a result, when going into random pugs or battlesones, melting everything before others could even get a piece of the action! Is that fair? Is that sportsman-like conduct? Or is that just being a show-off waving an epeen around? *snip*
Because a bunch of DPS Meisters couldn't keep from showing off their toys to the point that enough people started complaining about it that the devs did something about it.
Bravo, DPS epeens, bravo
*Slow Clapping*
What makes you think we were "showing off"? The DPS league players never "showed off" in public queues and public instances. Like I said in my post, if you ever saw us in BZs or other things, we were just doing what we do. The only difference is we did it a lot better than a lot of the playerbase. I'm doing my best right now to not be the stereotypical DPS epeen waver (as you so put it, and also because I am no longer deserving of that title), but just because your ships couldn't keep up with ours as damage went, was it really fair to blast us for learning how to get that kind of performance from our ships? Was it really fair to nerf our builds and adjust our damage just because we bothered to learn how to push our ships to the limits (and often break those limits)?
You ask about sportsmanlike conduct. You ask about others "wanting a piece of the action". Well then let me ask you this. Was it sportsmanlike of those people to just complain and whine instead of learn how we did what we did and learn how to get similar performance from both themselves and their ships? If they wanted a "piece of the action" so badly, why not beat us at our own game? Why not build up themselves and their ships and steal the show back from us?
Most DPS players don't blatantly and publicly "show off". And those that do are usually on the lower end of the scale, and since they are so concerned with making others look bad usually don't get better. The ones on the upper end don't care about making others look weak. They honestly don't care about most of the other players unless directly asked for help. They only care about pushing the limits, making their ships do even more damage. If they went into an instance and melted everything in sight, it wasn't to make others look weak or to show off their ship, it was to test a build, see if an adjustment worked, see if they could change something to make it better. You're running under a very very false assumption that we're all a bunch of power hungry douchebags who want everyone else to look bad.
You're dead wrong.
It is said the best weapon is one that is never fired. I disagree. The best weapon is one you only have to fire... once.
a whole LOT of the "nerfs" boiled down to closing loopholes that had been left open by careless work over years prior. sub-one-minute 'boss' battles? Two minute or less ISA? were never supposed to happen in the first place. they tried preserving the powercreep wiht time-gates, and with the ridiculous more-than-a-dreadnought-on-normal NPC mob pieces, but in the end, they really were just delaying what they needed to do in the first place-learn how the game actually plays, and how those 'unforeseen' interactions were actually stacking.
and they didn't go as far as they could have or should have in toning it back.
I think they went the wrong way by toning things back to begin with. Yes, there were things that were going on that shouldn't have. Yes, there was a massive power tsunami, but honestly, instead of nerfing us, why not make the enemies stronger? And I don't mean add another 1 mil HP to every enemy in every instance, but instead make them smarter! Make each NPC fight an actual battle to the death. Make them use abilities, make them actually interesting. That's what they should have done.
It is said the best weapon is one that is never fired. I disagree. The best weapon is one you only have to fire... once.
Last night in fact some guy was complaining that several story missions in Future Proof were impossible so since the character I was on hadn't done them I immediately dove in and utterly wrecked all 3 of them. On a KDF flying a Fleet Advanced Light Cruiser with cannons. Dude was like "My ship does 70k & I've restarted like 9 times its impossible!".
I have to point out though, that the devs have stated that single player missions are made to have an extremely low performance requirement. In fact, when they test this, they do so with whatever loadout came with the ships with no BOff powers, traits or DOffs. If that player was truly doing 70k DPS, he'd likely vape everything in that space by merely looking at them.
There is a huge difference between normal single player missions, and queued normal team STFs, a bigger difference between normal and advanced, and elites are in a whole different ballgame.
The problem of players vaping stuff in advanced stems from the lack of content (elites) geared towards them. A player geared well enough for advanced, will vape things in normal STFs. Likewise, a player geared for elites will vape stuff in advanced.
As for those think DPS'ers are using exploits to bump up their firepower, a vast majority of them are not. There are a very few minority (like in any other game) that may be exploiting bugs, but those can only be counted in one hand. Strictly speaking, "exploiting" means using bugs or glitches to gain an advantage. Exploiting stuff is frowned upon even in the DPS community.
Now I see myself as having a basic understanding of how the game mechanics work, so I can safely say that exploits are not being used. They are merely using the tools that Cryptic gave them to increase their ship's performance.
I wasn't against the rebalance (I think some of the changes were good), however I think not many realize that the rebalance (as implemented) will only serve to widen the player gap. The cost for building a high-end ship is now higher than ever before, particularly due to the Embassy Plasma Console nerf. Where before these consoles were a cheap source of additional damage, the current meta is now veering towards more expensive lobi and lockbox items (like the Dynamic Power Redistributor); I think this needs to be addressed somehow.
Another side-effect of the rebalance is how the way the skill-trees are currently setup will stifle diversity. Skill Trees are a one-time affair for many players due to the cost of reskilling. The current direction many guides people follow is moving towards the Tactical Ultimate, which in the long run is a very inflexible skill setup in my opinion. That alone will pigeon-hole players into specific builds that will make them more susceptible to the effects of any future rebalancing or burn them out to the lack of variety. Either give us skill tree loadouts, or (the simplest fix), make reskilling either a dilithium or EC cost.
At this point I'd almost say it makes no difference if they're kept in the game or not - I have seen zero activity for the Borg ones
The Borg ones have the stigma to only be available in advanced leading to probably the worst effort/reward ratio out there due to their map composition. Make an elite mode and they will run better. This is not a S13 problem however. Reduced activity in space and yes, even on the available ground elite maps, sadly is.
(Emphasis mine) Well you and another poster basically claimed that Lucy was lazy for not being able to keep up with DPS monsters - that she and average Joe should try harder and learn how to play the game. Isn't that also blaming the players for decisions Cryptic made (specifically, the decision to let things get out of hand in the first place)?
The game has to be fun for everyone. Sometimes that means that players lose some of their investments because you can't guarantee that newer players can enjoy the game if you, at the same time, have to ensure that the older players with heavy investments never lose out on any change that is made. It's simply not realistic to assume that any and all investments made and builds built will always retain their value, that's also something players will just have to accept.
Lastly, to get back to the 'lazy Lucy' and information provided in-game vs. outside of it in general: would it really be that great if 'lazy' Lucy also became a DPS monster and you end up with 5 players each doing over 50k or even 100k DPS on a map that's built to only sustain a fraction of that?
At some point things just have to be corrected. An empty queue list is not what I want to see, but a queue list that's actually acting like a DOFF or Admiralty system where just a handful of clicks get you the reward in mere seconds isn't exactly enjoyable either.
I think Tune’s argumentation in this thread is less a “which power is right to use and which isn’t so what was in need of nerf and that wasn’t” thingy. He just lets the results of the adjustments of S13 speak for themselves. As it turns out we sadly neither have enough lazy Lucies nor average Joes that could profit well enough from S13 in order to populate the queues. Even though not vocal in forums it was the enthusiastic PvEr and DPSer who kept the queue eco system running and they have been disgusted away. This is not even about the "needs of the many in game" but rather only about those willing to play. Clearly “the nerfs were needed forum crowds” aren’t enough for that nor is the scrubby rest in game only playing Admirality and stories anyway.
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Comments
Rebalance didn't make anything clearer, quite vice versa. You still can't get *full* knowledge by just reading in-game tooltips.
However, I never said you *have* to reach for outside help to be good (after all, how did the first person become good enough to write those guides, certainly game/devs didn't help that). It's just easier to become better if do so, because figuring stuff out yourself is in some cases lots of hard work and guessing, something your average player wouldn't prefer to do over simply blasting enemy ships up.
U.S.S. Buteo Regalis - Brigid Multi-Mission Surveillance Explorer build
R.R.W. Ri Maajon - Khopesh Tactical Dreadnought Warbird build
My Youtube channel containing STO videos.
I pointed out that I don't use a parser, to highlight that I have no idea what kind of DPS my build puts out. For all I know, it could actually be good. I doubt it, but I don't know.
What does your (no irony or sarcasm intended) expert opinion tell you about the output of the build I've been using? Where on the performance curve would you place it?
I'm not using a DOS build, because I'm not interested in vaping my way through a game mission, nor in chasing figures on a repetetive instance like ISA, where everyone knows exactly what they're doing, and there's no skill involved (Like how the old computers at school had a function which timed how fast someone typed the alphabet. Once they key positions were memorized, there was absolutely no skill involved, just repetetive fingerstrike patterns, trying to go faster and faster each time. That's no longer fun, but obsession)
The point still stands, that had DPS Meisters not made people so sick of their behaviour, that they started complaining about it on forum, then the devs wouldn't have instigated the rebalance, which has clearly had impacts on people's builds, and make people walk away from the game.
I've not once said that people shouldn't be able to have DPS Builds. I know people put time and money into achieving them. That's fine. But don't bring them into random pugs, knowing full well that doing so makes the instance a waste of time for the other player(s)
"I was here before you, I will be here after you are gone. I am here, regardless of your acknowledgement or acceptance..." - The Truth
"I was here before you, I will be here after you are gone. I am here, regardless of your acknowledgement or acceptance..." - The Truth
My view is that some aspects of S13 have been staggeringly bad to the game as a whole. The main culprits i would list as:
Now on to the elephant in the room now, the balance pass, or as some people call it "nerf pass".
My personally view is in line with several posters on here, it was WELL overdue and fixed some mechanics and items/abilities that were performing well over what they should have been capable of.
I'm fully aware that a lot of people have thrown a major tantrum over the changes, talk of build being ruined, the end of the world, quitting the game etc.
Sure it might have meant some builds were no longer as effective as pre-S13, but this sort of game change is a fact of life for a huge number of MMO's and other online games. When things get stale and stagnant then the game just becomes the same old thing day in day out. The dev's needs to update things occasionally to keep people on their toes. Just because you have a killer build doesn't mean it'll always stay that way, be prepared to have to fiddle with it should things change in the future.
Especially so if the build makes heavy use of mechanics or interactions that are over-performing, or just plain broken. Was it right for embassy sci consoles to be SO vital to the top DPS build that they essentially ceased to be seen as sci consoles at all and made anything with 5 sci slots pretty much a 5+ tac console ship? I'd say no.
Was it right that immunity's could be stacked up endlessly as to make oneself effectively immortal? Again no.
But all that is besides the point really, things changed and you either deal with it or move on. If you build became less effective with equipment X on it, then go try something new to slot instead. Or maybe give a different type of build a go, you might learn something or find something you'd never considered a real blast.
Some of my builds suffered a bit, but it was no big issue. I just adapted what i could or accepted that some were maybe now not up to elite content so I take them to normal or advanced runs instead. I'm not too bothered by rewards, or mission lengths, or time-gates; I just want to fly round space in my favourite ships shooting things. If i need to run a normal queue to do that in a crazy experimental build then i'll accept that.
I think rage-quitting or constantly whining about your builds being ruined is poor showing personally. It's a game, half the fun is getting things to work the way you want them too. If that is no longer what STO provides for you then perhaps it's time to take
a break for a while or move on.
Like you say, half the fun is getting things to work the way you want them too. Well, thanks to the rebalance, things don't work the way people wanted them too.
Personally, I feel my build still performed perfectly adequately on a regular pve mission, so I likely won't try slotting anything else to try and bring it up to the standard it was at prior to the rebalance. I can deal with it as it is (I was actually more concerned about the possible impacts of updates to the graphic settings on my Space Barbies) but that doesn't make me oblivious to the change happening, and it doesn't prevent me from understanding why other people would be pissed off about their builds (probably way costlier than mine) being nerfed, especially when that nerfing only happened because of how DPS Meisters were behaving toward other players.
By your own admission, it wasn't right that embassy consoles were being used as they were, but at the end of the day, someone spends the respurces to get them, fine, that's their choice. But to then take those builds into random pugs, and making the other players irrelevant, to borrow your phrase, I think is poor showing.
"I was here before you, I will be here after you are gone. I am here, regardless of your acknowledgement or acceptance..." - The Truth
Also, remember how you recently took a break from game cause things got too stale and there was nothing to do? Didn't remember you having similar problems before S13.
It's a valid advice to give to ppl to just update their builds and move on, but that rebalance wrecked the fun of several ppl a lot, to the point of no return. Why is Nirett's fun with tanking wrong (to give you a familiar example)?
Also, if too many players give up after a change, you can't shift full blame to players and saying they are just simply stupid for not trying enough. I assume there are quite a few ppl who have simply got enough with Cryptic meddling with their builds, while assuring "they retain investments".
While balance is a noble goal to have, I know *I* am not willing to sacrifice healthy queues for that.
And about "adapt or move on", seems like many players already chose the second option. Might've been their loss, but it's also ours.
U.S.S. Buteo Regalis - Brigid Multi-Mission Surveillance Explorer build
R.R.W. Ri Maajon - Khopesh Tactical Dreadnought Warbird build
My Youtube channel containing STO videos.
Yeah the GW adjustments were a bummer at first but i adapted and actually managed to get a build that was better after S13 than before it, just by trying some new ways of putting it together.
Also, yes i took a break from the game because it felt stale. Not because my builds got ruined, i'd just run out of things to do and fancied a change in what i did with my spare time. By the time i took a break i'd mastered all the spec trees, all the doff commendations, done all my crafting schools to an acceptable level and finished all the reputations.
I came back for Risa when new content (although only seasonal) was introduced.
As for wrecking people's fun, well that's subjective. Nobody is saying anyone's way of playing is wrong here, it's just that certain means of building a ship or flying one needed to reworking post S13 to get the best from them. I'd sooner need to redo a build than to continue using and relying upon it with potentially broken and unbalanced items and abilities.
The players who chose to move on made their call, it's in their hands. New players will move up to fill their boots eventually. I don't think the game is dying, i think those players who's time it was to move on departed. Provided the de team can keep adding new and interesting content to the game (missions, galaxy expansions, exploration system (?)) then i think it should continue a few years i hope.
At the end of the day no point staying if it's not working for you anymore.
(Emphasis mine) Well you and another poster basically claimed that Lucy was lazy for not being able to keep up with DPS monsters - that she and average Joe should try harder and learn how to play the game. Isn't that also blaming the players for decisions Cryptic made (specifically, the decision to let things get out of hand in the first place)?
The game has to be fun for everyone. Sometimes that means that players lose some of their investments because you can't guarantee that newer players can enjoy the game if you, at the same time, have to ensure that the older players with heavy investments never lose out on any change that is made. It's simply not realistic to assume that any and all investments made and builds built will always retain their value, that's also something players will just have to accept.
Lastly, to get back to the 'lazy Lucy' and information provided in-game vs. outside of it in general: would it really be that great if 'lazy' Lucy also became a DPS monster and you end up with 5 players each doing over 50k or even 100k DPS on a map that's built to only sustain a fraction of that?
At some point things just have to be corrected. An empty queue list is not what I want to see, but a queue list that's actually acting like a DOFF or Admiralty system where just a handful of clicks get you the reward in mere seconds isn't exactly enjoyable either.
If done together, such content can be made more rewarding, it'll be more often playable and it will promote diversity.
That's really all about the implementation. If (big if) a matchmaking system works, players will find other players at their level. If you're in it for the enjoyment of PvP, they get a somewhat level playing field and can do so. If you're in it to win it (most of the time) and reach the highest ranks, well then you gotta invest. But there's still a place for gazillions of people playing PvP at a lower tier and enjoying it. Theres hordes of game sites of all kind where this works - granted, you cannot buy your way up on most of them as you can here. But also in real life, say magic tournaments. Sure, there's the big spenders with all the expensive cards they need for their build, but there's also a lot of people just playing their decks and having fun.
And the Endeavor System is basically Cryptic's way of admitting the queues are dead now. Tried to queue for CCA again: can't be done any more (unless you're willing to wait 20-30 minutes). So, I tinker a bit with my ship visuals and such, but, at some time, I really want to queue up again, you know!?
I know, DOOM threads are verboten, but dangit, things aren't looking good.
"I was here before you, I will be here after you are gone. I am here, regardless of your acknowledgement or acceptance..." - The Truth
Really?! 'people on the lower end' din't use subsystem power and a Leech?! And the 30% BFAW dmg nerf somehow magically skipped the lower end players, right?! I suppose they never used GW either, no?! And they didn't use exploders to beef up their already poor DPS a bit?!
Riiight.
When I talk about 'people on the lower end', I think more like 30k minimum. And I consider myself, at barely 51k, pretty much at the lower end of the scale too, as others reportedly do 5-6x more. I once was in 75k too (pre-S13), so, estimates I hear of ppl having lost 40-50% DPS don't really sound all that far-fatched to me (and I wasn't even using exploders).
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"I was here before you, I will be here after you are gone. I am here, regardless of your acknowledgement or acceptance..." - The Truth
I couldn't care if i'm playing with subpar players or the highend DPS League guys, I just want the bloody PvE I queued for to pop so I can do what i logged into the game to do and thats PLAY.
Hello rubber banding my old friend, time to bounce around the battlezone again, where are all my bug reports going?, out of love with this game I am falling, As Cryptic fail to acknowledge a problem exists, Shakes an angry fist, And from Support all I'm hearing are the sounds of silence.
I'm going to stop you right there. Risian, I know you are probably one of the more level headed players who comment regularly on the forums, so I won't waste your time by picking your post apart piece by piece. So I'll just go ahead and say it. If every player in ISA did 75k, the instance would be over in just under 2 mins. There is no "total" DPS value for those instances. Every player can contribute whatever they are capable of contributing. Now later on you comment that if one player is well
I have to disagree with you there sir. The total DPS being put out by those players isn't affected by one player doing massive DPS themselves. If one player does an insane level of DPS, the other players DPS if anything will be bolstered by that player, since that player usually is using debuffs which can be used by the other team members (IE APB, FOMM, Disruptor Breach, etc). There is no reason for anyone really to NOT benefit from a high DPS player in their instance, outside of the old Tholian and Borg RAs where the higher DPS got the more skillpoints. But honestly if you want skillpoints for levelling, it's easier to farm Argala or the Tau Dewa patrols.
What makes you think we were "showing off"? The DPS league players never "showed off" in public queues and public instances. Like I said in my post, if you ever saw us in BZs or other things, we were just doing what we do. The only difference is we did it a lot better than a lot of the playerbase. I'm doing my best right now to not be the stereotypical DPS epeen waver (as you so put it, and also because I am no longer deserving of that title), but just because your ships couldn't keep up with ours as damage went, was it really fair to blast us for learning how to get that kind of performance from our ships? Was it really fair to nerf our builds and adjust our damage just because we bothered to learn how to push our ships to the limits (and often break those limits)?
You ask about sportsmanlike conduct. You ask about others "wanting a piece of the action". Well then let me ask you this. Was it sportsmanlike of those people to just complain and whine instead of learn how we did what we did and learn how to get similar performance from both themselves and their ships? If they wanted a "piece of the action" so badly, why not beat us at our own game? Why not build up themselves and their ships and steal the show back from us?
Most DPS players don't blatantly and publicly "show off". And those that do are usually on the lower end of the scale, and since they are so concerned with making others look bad usually don't get better. The ones on the upper end don't care about making others look weak. They honestly don't care about most of the other players unless directly asked for help. They only care about pushing the limits, making their ships do even more damage. If they went into an instance and melted everything in sight, it wasn't to make others look weak or to show off their ship, it was to test a build, see if an adjustment worked, see if they could change something to make it better. You're running under a very very false assumption that we're all a bunch of power hungry douchebags who want everyone else to look bad.
You're dead wrong.
I think they went the wrong way by toning things back to begin with. Yes, there were things that were going on that shouldn't have. Yes, there was a massive power tsunami, but honestly, instead of nerfing us, why not make the enemies stronger? And I don't mean add another 1 mil HP to every enemy in every instance, but instead make them smarter! Make each NPC fight an actual battle to the death. Make them use abilities, make them actually interesting. That's what they should have done.
I have to point out though, that the devs have stated that single player missions are made to have an extremely low performance requirement. In fact, when they test this, they do so with whatever loadout came with the ships with no BOff powers, traits or DOffs. If that player was truly doing 70k DPS, he'd likely vape everything in that space by merely looking at them.
There is a huge difference between normal single player missions, and queued normal team STFs, a bigger difference between normal and advanced, and elites are in a whole different ballgame.
The problem of players vaping stuff in advanced stems from the lack of content (elites) geared towards them. A player geared well enough for advanced, will vape things in normal STFs. Likewise, a player geared for elites will vape stuff in advanced.
As for those think DPS'ers are using exploits to bump up their firepower, a vast majority of them are not. There are a very few minority (like in any other game) that may be exploiting bugs, but those can only be counted in one hand. Strictly speaking, "exploiting" means using bugs or glitches to gain an advantage. Exploiting stuff is frowned upon even in the DPS community.
Now I see myself as having a basic understanding of how the game mechanics work, so I can safely say that exploits are not being used. They are merely using the tools that Cryptic gave them to increase their ship's performance.
I wasn't against the rebalance (I think some of the changes were good), however I think not many realize that the rebalance (as implemented) will only serve to widen the player gap. The cost for building a high-end ship is now higher than ever before, particularly due to the Embassy Plasma Console nerf. Where before these consoles were a cheap source of additional damage, the current meta is now veering towards more expensive lobi and lockbox items (like the Dynamic Power Redistributor); I think this needs to be addressed somehow.
Another side-effect of the rebalance is how the way the skill-trees are currently setup will stifle diversity. Skill Trees are a one-time affair for many players due to the cost of reskilling. The current direction many guides people follow is moving towards the Tactical Ultimate, which in the long run is a very inflexible skill setup in my opinion. That alone will pigeon-hole players into specific builds that will make them more susceptible to the effects of any future rebalancing or burn them out to the lack of variety. Either give us skill tree loadouts, or (the simplest fix), make reskilling either a dilithium or EC cost.
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I think Tune’s argumentation in this thread is less a “which power is right to use and which isn’t so what was in need of nerf and that wasn’t” thingy. He just lets the results of the adjustments of S13 speak for themselves. As it turns out we sadly neither have enough lazy Lucies nor average Joes that could profit well enough from S13 in order to populate the queues. Even though not vocal in forums it was the enthusiastic PvEr and DPSer who kept the queue eco system running and they have been disgusted away. This is not even about the "needs of the many in game" but rather only about those willing to play. Clearly “the nerfs were needed forum crowds” aren’t enough for that nor is the scrubby rest in game only playing Admirality and stories anyway.
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