test content
What is the Arc Client?
Install Arc

Drain is insane

1235»

Comments

  • tobiashirttobiashirt Member Posts: 630 Arc User
    Per ..PC Patch Notes for 5/11/17

    *Tyken's Rift now only drains current power in subsystems, instead of also reducing subsystems' ability to regenerate.

    Not sure quite what that means/how it works, and is was on atribble so little ahead of time. Is this a good thing? Does it fix/mitigate some of the worst of post-s13 Tyken's?
  • tobiashirttobiashirt Member Posts: 630 Arc User
    koppster wrote: »
    Post Balance Pass Annorax Sci build 560 EPG

    I've parsed a 200k+ CCA on my sci officer. In the right team with the right abilities and co-ordination, even poor players with sub-standard builds can post high dps. The numbers on sto-league say otherwise with regards to who got hit the hardest with the balance pass. Sci is behind tactical and eng in all instances and is significantly behind tactical. I don't know whether the percentage difference was the same before the pass as I've only recently started parsing my runs, but the gap is quite large.

    Let's see the parse or it didn't happen, and I don't just mean burst damage, it's got to be sustained for at least a few minutes. Let's also see the parses that support your claim here, you can't just come here with statements lacking evidence. I've been parsing for years and do so every day and your story is the opposite of what I'm seeing. The other ships on my parse shown above, for example, were all tac ships.

    Hmm, burst damage masquerading as dps...where does that sound familiar from? Oh yeah, the 100s of thousands in chart-topping ISA runs scarcely over 1 minute that people like to tout. Anything at the top of the chart, for any map, is burst pretty much by definition...what're your burst and sustained records, and how were they reached/on what maps/in what teams? Should we consider any number from any map illegitimate if it's less than some suggested timing threshold?

    Pre-s13, my best ISA was 169.x k in about a 2-minute run, placing me in the top 10 when sorting by the engineering profession.

    Burst record was 330k in a 28s CCA, also with the same engineer, but a different ship.

    ISA runs that went long, on the order of 4-6min, show a sustained value more like 100-110k, and "longer" CCA runs on the order of 1min were more like 150-180k.

    Post-s13, both of the corresponding reference numbers were reached by William@tobiashirt, my best-developed sci. ISA @ 87k in a run around 3min, and ~215k in an ~30s CCA
  • tobiashirttobiashirt Member Posts: 630 Arc User
    szim wrote: »
    You guys will be "thrilled" to hear that drain is getting another balance pass this thursday according to the Q&A livestream yesterday. Borticus said they clearly went too far. Tyken's rift was underperforming before season 13 and is now too strong. So don't upgrade those drain consoles just yet ;)

    Cryptic has had a very off & on affair with Tykien's Rift.

    At launch it was very strong.
    Not long after that, they nerfed it into complete, total uselessness for both PVP and PVE and it stayed that way for ages. Drains were easy to resist.
    Now it's strong.
    Now it looks like it's going to get put into oblivion again.

    There is no middle ground in these balance passes.

    It is perplexing that indeed no middle ground seems to be found. Years ago when we had the siphon drone issue we were told that subsystem power would be capped at a minimum of 25 iirc perhaps the best way of achieving a useful drain, and keeping things like Tyken as they are, would be to introduce such a cap. This would still allow drain to be powerful but would require additional holds for Tykens to be worth investing in, unless they also increased it's AoE to something like 5 km.

    *Citation needed

    How is it useful if you can't scale it above a certain point, and can never get drains high enough to be more than a support tool?

    Wait, why should Tyken's be seperated out (or drains in general, with the idea of a floor on system power) as needing to spend so much additional effort to make them useful? I still don't really grasp that reasoning, the only explanation that I can think of being that you were on the receiving end of one or more drain shutdowns in the past and don't like being rendered useless. I don't enjoy that feeling either, but if there's an available counter or workaround, its on my head to adapt rather that expect that what I don't like will get toned down.
  • tobiashirttobiashirt Member Posts: 630 Arc User
    koppster wrote: »
    Yeah, because people cba to learn to deal with it, let's hit it with the nerbat. In the meantime, we have meta-build tactical captains zipping round the new queues at impulse factor 1000, vaping entire teams and seemingly immune to all counters, but that's ok - nerf sci. Again.

    Fast losing patience with this game.

    ...Drain is not applying the drain resist it should, in fact it's not applying any resist as far as we can tell...

    Again, an entirely different issue than Tyken's itself overperforming as an ability.
  • e30erneste30ernest Member Posts: 1,794 Arc User
    edited May 2017
    koppster wrote: »
    Sci is behind tactical and eng in all instances
    The gap between Sci and Tactical isn't that large. It's about 50k in ISA and even less in CCA (in fact, top CCA is a Sci) and HSE (where the Sci vs Tac gap is about 20k, Engs are farther back). Engs are behind Scis in terms of top DPS, but really close when you average out the top runs in ISA, but start to lag in CCA and HSE (where runs are longer).

    As expected, Tac is above both of them in terms of damage, but that really should be the case now shouldn't it?

    Sorry for going off-topic (this is a thread about Drain and not DPS afterall) but I really think that the myth about Scis being so far behind needs to stop.
  • koppsterkoppster Member Posts: 179 Arc User
    but I really think that the myth about Scis being so far behind needs to stop.

    In the first paragraph of your reply you admit sci is behind by 50k in ISA, where it counts. CCA is a burst fest and the 490k sci record is very likely an organised team effort given its completion time. I think it's a bit disingenuous to refer to a 13.5 sec run and say, "sci is fine" because someone posted big numbers.

    It's not a myth that sci is under-performing on sustained dps, by a significant amount and I'm sorry, I don't buy into the narrative that that's the way it's supposed to be. There's no need for a dedicated debuffer/healer role in this game, as tactical vape builds destroy shields and hulls so quickly anyway and there's a slew of effective boff and skill tree abilities to keep them alive while doing so.

    Eng and sci are more or less on a par, with tactical way out in front. Neither of the former have a defined role in a game that at 60 mostly boils down to blowing stuff up. That being the case, what's the point in rolling anything other than a tactical character when balance passes nerf already under-performing roles even further?
  • risingwolfshadowrisingwolfshadow Member Posts: 619 Arc User
    Then perhaps it's time to stop using DPS as a measuring bar because it's a useless statistic that only applies to the small minded who like to stroke their e-peen and don't like to play with others (especially in PvP).

    All this talk of science being "behind tactical in DPS" and yet it's the most powerful class in PvP by a long shot.
  • e30erneste30ernest Member Posts: 1,794 Arc User
    koppster wrote: »
    In the first paragraph of your reply you admit sci is behind by 50k in ISA, where it counts.

    That gap is much lower now than it was before S13. Also worth noting that the record holder had a fleetie supporting him in that PUG run too. I know that because his parse shows that and I actually got to spoke to the guy in-game. It's still a good run, but it still inflates that gap a bit (considering the top Sci run was in a full PUG).
    koppster wrote: »
    It's not a myth that sci is under-performing on sustained dps

    The smaller gap in HSE shows that Scis are not underperforming in sustained DPS either. HSE runs are longer (fastest run so far was 4mins) so that smooths out the spikes more than ISA runs do (where the fastest right now is at 1:20).
    Then perhaps it's time to stop using DPS as a measuring bar

    Normally I'd agree but the devs have admitted to using the different league parsers and player parsing data from the league tables as one of the data points on deciding on balance changes. When people start thinking a class under-performs because of a DPS number, then it might push devs to needlessly buff or nerf them and/or their items and skills.

    Now as far as basing balance on purely PVP, I disagree there too, given that much of the game's content is PVE based. Honestly right now I think PVE class balance is in a fairly good place. PVP will still need improvement though.
  • koppsterkoppster Member Posts: 179 Arc User
    edited May 2017
    I don't do much PvP, no. I don't consider that a negative considering that neither does about 99% of the playerbase. My most recent experience of that has been the new queues, where all I'm seeing usually are frequent PvP'ers with PvP meta builds queuing normal and not bothering with final objectives, just so they can curbstomp the opposing team in the last room. Great way to encourage PvP btw...

    While I agree to some extent that using parser metrics as a reference point for the nerf/buff cycle is flawed, there should at least be some parity between the different roles in STO when it comes to end-game. I'm ok with differences, so long as the difference gap isn't significant.

    I've yet to hear an answer as to why anyone should bother rolling an eng or sci toon, epicing them up and tuning their builds, when you could roll a tac officer and post the same or better numbers with MKXII gear and a spacebar faceroll keybind. Cosmetic space magic effects over pew-pew laz0rs isn't a compelling reason, unless you like to rp.
  • odinforever20000odinforever20000 Member Posts: 1,849 Arc User
    tobiashirt wrote: »
    Per ..PC Patch Notes for 5/11/17

    *Tyken's Rift now only drains current power in subsystems, instead of also reducing subsystems' ability to regenerate.

    Not sure quite what that means/how it works, and is was on atribble so little ahead of time. Is this a good thing? Does it fix/mitigate some of the worst of post-s13 Tyken's?

    Fix was not on tribble..Could be a good thing..Sounds like it'll take you to 0 but your systems will get power afterwards..Giving you moar time to escape with "some"engine power..We'll see tho.. Sounds like the amount of drain and damage it does will remain..Which I think could be good.

    The_Science_Channel_Signature_Gen_2_-_Jacobs_xSmall.png


    Rouge Sto Wiki Editor.


  • hanover2hanover2 Member Posts: 1,053 Arc User
    Fixing the immunity and ongoing drain may be enough.
  • risingwolfshadowrisingwolfshadow Member Posts: 619 Arc User
    Well @koppster I don't run current PvP meta and I'd love to queue up for core assault elite but it seems that PvEers think that you'll fight tougher players, which is ridiculous if you think about it, in elite so no one dares to enter the queue. Even though the time limit makes PvP next to impossible.
  • odinforever20000odinforever20000 Member Posts: 1,849 Arc User
    Well @koppster I don't run current PvP meta and I'd love to queue up for core assault elite but it seems that PvEers think that you'll fight tougher players, which is ridiculous if you think about it, in elite so no one dares to enter the queue. Even though the time limit makes PvP next to impossible.

    I was wondering why the Elite Core assault que never poped..
    hanover2 wrote: »
    Fixing the immunity and ongoing drain may be enough.

    Um...Fixed..Tykens was modified this last patch...Immunites have a 15 sec lock out since the 25th.. Granted ..If you use TBR (like I do) and someone pops a Pul Hul, you will see the words "Immune" but only to TBR.

    The_Science_Channel_Signature_Gen_2_-_Jacobs_xSmall.png


    Rouge Sto Wiki Editor.


  • warmaker001bwarmaker001b Member Posts: 9,205 Arc User
    I'd do Elite Core Assault but yes, nobody hits it.
    XzRTofz.gif
  • risingwolfshadowrisingwolfshadow Member Posts: 619 Arc User
    Still don't understand why no one does it. Better rewards, it favours PvE builds and there's literally no time to PvP.
    Wait I know. PvEers can't handle being blown up by a core.
  • odinforever20000odinforever20000 Member Posts: 1,849 Arc User
    Still don't understand why no one does it. Better rewards, it favours PvE builds and there's literally no time to PvP.
    Wait I know. PvEers can't handle being blown up by a core.

    Uh..Dont you just Get some distance and Tank?

    The_Science_Channel_Signature_Gen_2_-_Jacobs_xSmall.png


    Rouge Sto Wiki Editor.


  • risingwolfshadowrisingwolfshadow Member Posts: 619 Arc User
    No no no no no that's too complicated for the vocal members of the PvE community.
  • legendarylycan#5411 legendarylycan Member Posts: 37,275 Arc User
    Still don't understand why no one does it. Better rewards, it favours PvE builds and there's literally no time to PvP.
    Wait I know. PvEers can't handle being blown up by a core.

    Uh..Dont you just Get some distance and Tank?

    you need to know when the shockwave is coming to be able to start tanking it, and so far no one's been able to really pin down what, if any, conditions need to be satisfied before it releases a shockwave

    i thought it was at a % of HP like the CE, but a few people have mentioned the shockwave happening outside the usual percentages cryptic likes to use (i.e. every 1/3, 1/4, 1/5 of HP lost), nor does it seem to have a charge bar like the snowflake does

    someone else mentioned it possibly shows a lightning effect when it's charging the wave, but the effect is fairly small, and easy to get lost in all the LSD disco FX spam​​
    Like special weapons from other Star Trek games? Wondering if they can be replicated in STO even a little bit? Check this out: https://forum.arcgames.com/startrekonline/discussion/1262277/a-mostly-comprehensive-guide-to-star-trek-videogame-special-weapons-and-their-sto-equivalents

    #LegalizeAwoo

    A normie goes "Oh, what's this?"
    An otaku goes "UwU, what's this?"
    A furry goes "OwO, what's this?"
    A werewolf goes "Awoo, what's this?"


    "It's nothing personal, I just don't feel like I've gotten to know a person until I've sniffed their crotch."
    "We said 'no' to Mr. Curiosity. We're not home. Curiosity is not welcome, it is not to be invited in. Curiosity...is bad. It gets you in trouble, it gets you killed, and more importantly...it makes you poor!"
    Passion and Serenity are one.
    I gain power by understanding both.
    In the chaos of their battle, I bring order.
    I am a shadow, darkness born from light.
    The Force is united within me.
  • odinforever20000odinforever20000 Member Posts: 1,849 Arc User
    Still don't understand why no one does it. Better rewards, it favours PvE builds and there's literally no time to PvP.
    Wait I know. PvEers can't handle being blown up by a core.

    Uh..Dont you just Get some distance and Tank?

    you need to know when the shockwave is coming to be able to start tanking it, and so far no one's been able to really pin down what, if any, conditions need to be satisfied before it releases a shockwave

    i thought it was at a % of HP like the CE, but a few people have mentioned the shockwave happening outside the usual percentages cryptic likes to use (i.e. every 1/3, 1/4, 1/5 of HP lost), nor does it seem to have a charge bar like the snowflake does

    someone else mentioned it possibly shows a lightning effect when it's charging the wave, but the effect is fairly small, and easy to get lost in all the LSD disco FX spam​​

    Once I start Seeing 1's for damage I fly as far and as fast as I can activating all my rez abilites along the way.

    The_Science_Channel_Signature_Gen_2_-_Jacobs_xSmall.png


    Rouge Sto Wiki Editor.


  • asuran14asuran14 Member Posts: 2,335 Arc User
    It would be nice to have a text que of it charging the shockwave, or some form of visual that would give you an idea of how close it is to unleashing it. I mean the electrical visual for it changing the shockwave is fine, but if the blue color would change to different colors as it reaches the end of the charge an is going to release it would be a nice que to have. I have found that it seems to do the shockwave more often as more players are targeting the regulator.
  • node31#9773 node31 Member Posts: 39 Arc User
    Still don't understand why no one does it. Better rewards, it favours PvE builds and there's literally no time to PvP.
    Wait I know. PvEers can't handle being blown up by a core.

    Favours PVE build in which way? PVE build will have some advantage if you roll DPS centric puzzle(like kill enemys to open the dor), but if you not roll them, then there is no difference... If this Que favours enything than that would be fast ships that can move fast in space... But then again, in core PVE build doesn't stand a chance against proper PvP build... i've seen battles where team with PvP setup would win, even if they late, just becouse they dust all those super duper DPS ships when they are in...
Sign In or Register to comment.