Drain is insane

mattjohnsonva

Years ago when the siphon drones were nerfed because they were taking folks down to zero power in all subsystems the devs told us that they should never reach zero. Drain in this game is now insane and taking someone to zero is ridiculously simple, forcing players to fit jumps, certain sets, whatever to get out of the ridiculous tykens. I was hoping that this balance pass would address this issue but clearly not, and I speak from someone with a 400+ drain build ship.

risian4

That may be, but if we compare them to all the other builds in the game, are drain builds really that problematic?

Didn't they also add some lock out with the latest patch? Like that once your subsystems are disabled, they can't be disabled for another 15 seconds or so? Or doest that only count for NPCs?

neomodious

risian4 wrote: »

That may be, but if we compare them to all the other builds in the game, are drain builds really that problematic?

Didn't they also add some lock out with the latest patch? Like that once your subsystems are disabled, they can't be disabled for another 15 seconds or so? Or doest that only count for NPCs?

There used to be a difference between disables and drains. Not sure if it's still there, but basically, being hit with a whole team using polarons will keep draining you, but you'll get breaks against a whole team using phasers.

lordsteve1

With high drainx skill now it's possible for the polaron proc to be doing -100+ pwr off all subsystems when it goes off. If you have a whole team of those it'll be a nightmare to fight against, even with the 2.5% proc chance.

Add to that tyken's rift with ridiculous drains as well and things are a tad overpowered. I'm all for science being more attractive and having a chance but now drains have gone way over the top. Remember that the guy with 600+ drainx that's taking all your power will also have massive drain resistance now too, so doing the same to him will be difficult.

I'm not quite sure what the solution is here, but it feels OP to me and i'm a big science player myself.

risian4

neomodious wrote: »

risian4 wrote: »

That may be, but if we compare them to all the other builds in the game, are drain builds really that problematic?

Didn't they also add some lock out with the latest patch? Like that once your subsystems are disabled, they can't be disabled for another 15 seconds or so? Or doest that only count for NPCs?

There used to be a difference between disables and drains. Not sure if it's still there, but basically, being hit with a whole team using polarons will keep draining you, but you'll get breaks against a whole team using phasers.

Doesn't drain skill also add drain resistance?

Somehow I doubt that, taking that into account, someone can easily be drained if they have over 400 in that skill.

I just checked since I posted my last comment btw. Tyken's rift is a lot stronger. Don't think that was really necessary myself.

rattler2

If this is true... I think the only counter right now is the Engie Nadion Inversion clicky power. I think...

meimeitoo

Wait, DrainX just got nerfed into the ground, and you want even moar nerfs?! When is it ever enough?!

asuran14

I honestly would not mind seeing a bit of a rework/retooling of how Tykens' works to reduce some fo the power drain, but work as a slightly different energy system debuff. like that while being drained by Tyken's it will place a debuff that reduces either your maximum power output levels, or reduces your power transfer rate for your power level systems. In this way it would do a similar job of reducing your power levels at a reduced amount, and via several different avenues such as directly draining power an either reducing your max power level in your sub-systems or reducing the rate you can recover/transfer power between the systems. Though not sure if the devs would undertake that kind of a rework/retooling right now.

altran3301

meimeitoo wrote: »

Wait, DrainX just got nerfed into the ground, and you want even moar nerfs?! When is it ever enough?!

When everyone else is dragged down to their level.

hajmyis

mattjohnsonva wrote: »

Years ago when the siphon drones were nerfed because they were taking folks down to zero power in all subsystems the devs told us that they should never reach zero. Drain in this game is now insane and taking someone to zero is ridiculously simple, forcing players to fit jumps, certain sets, whatever to get out of the ridiculous tykens. I was hoping that this balance pass would address this issue but clearly not, and I speak from someone with a 400+ drain build ship.

Um, no it is not insane. And what is this "force players to fit x y and z"

You know what, I had to "Fit" uber amounts of Res to fight your Dps, Jumps to fight you Destabilizing Resonance Beam, Placates to fight your ApA uber death cheese.

So now the shoe is on the another foot. It is time for all you guys to IDK, counter the other player (drain in this case).

So what if you have try new things to fight one type of build. Drains have weakness, exploit that, and when you do, I dont cry. So if someone's build cant counter the drain it is the players fault for not using other mechanics.

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kyle223cat

rattler2 wrote: »

If this is true... I think the only counter right now is the Engie Nadion Inversion clicky power. I think...

It is a counter...in theory. However from experience using nadion inversion and eps power transfer at the same time along with a decent amount of drainx (to increase drain resistances) has little effect against drains. I've heard of some people pushing 800 drainx.

lordsteve1

> @kyle223cat said:
> rattler2 wrote: »
>
> If this is true... I think the only counter right now is the Engie Nadion Inversion clicky power. I think...
>
>
>
>
> It is a counter...in theory. However from experience using nadion inversion and eps power transfer at the same time along with a decent amount of drainx (to increase drain resistances) has little effect against drains. I've heard of some people pushing 800 drainx.

Heh. I've seen people able to get drain to almost 1000 drainX skill for short periods now. Things are getting a wee bit daft.

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meimeitoo

mattjohnsonva wrote: »

meimeitoo wrote: »

Wait, DrainX just got nerfed into the ground, and you want even moar nerfs?! When is it ever enough?!

Have you read the patch notes? Only the leech has been decreased and it still stakes up to -22 power from all subsystems on a 400 drain build. Tykens is the problem, it took you down to zero before the patch and now it does it a little bit quicker, so unless you have an out which doesn't require engine power, e.g. rock and roll, you're dead. The point of my post was that originally bort told us that no subsystem should ever fall below a minimum threshold, iirc it was 20 in all subsystems, I think zero is way too OP. If they are serious about balancing pvp then THIS must be looked at, otherwise all you will need on your team is a drain build to lock down anyone near to it and you're home dry.

DrainX was nerfed into the ground, in the sense that having invested in it for the Leech became totally useless. At least still being able to drain NPC's is a small comfort for those who got all the DrainX gear.

nekofury86

I dig it. As someone who recently did a drain heavy build, I'm looking forward to using TR for the first time in 3 years, especially with that Doff that has a chance to keep creating them. I always preferred GW to TR, finally more choices, thanks Cryptic.

risian4

Actually, I think @hajmyis post was spot on. Sci builds, and within that category, drain builds, are not the most serious problem.

It's fine if you want to correct power creep, I've always been in favour of correcting over-performing stuff. But let's fix the really problematic stuff (like ApA and stacking of tons of tactical buffs) first.

Tyken's rift is not the solution to everything (as opposed to some other stuff) and using it effectively still requires heavy specialisation into a specific skill that automatically requires huge sacrifices.



Amazing how someone is claiming that draining was 'nerfed into the ground' btw. Please understand that 'draining' is more than just a single console. It's a bit silly (up to the point I get the impression that you have no idea what you're talking about or actually ever tried to use a true drain boat) to pretend that a whole subset of builds was nerfed because one far too important console was corrected.

Edit: spelling

nightken

meimeitoo wrote: »

mattjohnsonva wrote: »

meimeitoo wrote: »

Wait, DrainX just got nerfed into the ground, and you want even moar nerfs?! When is it ever enough?!

Have you read the patch notes? Only the leech has been decreased and it still stakes up to -22 power from all subsystems on a 400 drain build. Tykens is the problem, it took you down to zero before the patch and now it does it a little bit quicker, so unless you have an out which doesn't require engine power, e.g. rock and roll, you're dead. The point of my post was that originally bort told us that no subsystem should ever fall below a minimum threshold, iirc it was 20 in all subsystems, I think zero is way too OP. If they are serious about balancing pvp then THIS must be looked at, otherwise all you will need on your team is a drain build to lock down anyone near to it and you're home dry.

DrainX was nerfed into the ground, in the sense that having invested in it for the Leech became totally useless. At least still being able to drain NPC's is a small comfort for those who got all the DrainX gear.

so drainx wasn't nerfed at all except one vastly over performing console... good it should have been nerfed a long time ago. like alot of the changes they made.they should have nerfed more.

and I have crazy idea you got all this gear you spent so much on. how about instead of whining your broken console was fixed, make an actual drain boat. I mean you got the stuff already.

hajmyis

mattjohnsonva wrote: »

hajmyis wrote: »

mattjohnsonva wrote: »

Years ago when the siphon drones were nerfed because they were taking folks down to zero power in all subsystems the devs told us that they should never reach zero. Drain in this game is now insane and taking someone to zero is ridiculously simple, forcing players to fit jumps, certain sets, whatever to get out of the ridiculous tykens. I was hoping that this balance pass would address this issue but clearly not, and I speak from someone with a 400+ drain build ship.

Um, no it is not insane. And what is this "force players to fit x y and z"

You know what, I had to "Fit" uber amounts of Res to fight your Dps, Jumps to fight you Destabilizing Resonance Beam, Placates to fight your ApA uber death cheese.

So now the shoe is on the another foot. It is time for all you guys to IDK, counter the other player (drain in this case).

So what if you have try new things to fight one type of build. Drains have weakness, exploit that, and when you do, I dont cry. So if someone's build cant counter the drain it is the players fault for not using other mechanics.

Childish response to a broken system that has never been addressed for years. We are supposed to be seeing a new balance meta in this game, so, anything that is virtually irresistible can hardly be considered balanced. The devs want us to try and use a varied selection of abilities, each of which adds to the total damage output of your build. Some of those abilities will have useful synergies, but none of them should be a one shot solution, hence the massive nerfs to tac buffed crit FBPs. Now, it's clear that in order to win in a 1v1 all you need is to stack drain and Tykens, that's it. I speak from 7 years experience, I have 16 toons each with niche builds, many of which have had to be redesigned many times over the years and I also have a 400 drain raider and a 600+ drain sci, in 1v1s at least nobody in our fleet stands a chance, the second the tykens is out they stop moving and die.

So yes, I am complaining and if I am listened to my own toys will be nerfed, so it's not just you that will have to adapt and not rely on a broken mechanic. We have this one chance to get PvP balanced correctly and get folks back into the best part of the game, let's not **** it up.

"We have this one chance to get PvP balanced correctly and get folks back into the best part of the game"

I agree 100% on that,

However calling my response childish, is a little over aboard. In the OP is it was stateed The Drain is Insane. However the Rift is the only thing mentioned as being "insane", it was also mentioned that "forcing players to fit...", which means there is a counter to the rift, so how is this insane.

The Rift is also not effective is one does not stay in it, so your need the High drain fora quick effect

hajmyis

risian4 wrote: »

Actually, I think @hajmyis post was spot on. Sci builds, and within that category, drain builds, are not the most serious problem.

It's fine if you want to correct power creep, I've always been in favour of correcting over-performing stuff. But let's fix the really problematic stuff (like ApA and stacking of tons of tactical buffs) first.

Tyken's rift is not the solution to everything (as opposed to some other stuff) and using it effectively still requires heavy specialisation into a specific skill that automatically requires huge sacrifices.



Amzaing how someone is claiming that draining was 'nerfed into the ground' btw. Please understand that 'draining' is more than just a single console. It's a bit silly (up to the point I get the impression that you have no idea what you're talking about or actually ever tried to use a true drain boat) to pretend that a whole subset of builds was nerfed because one far too important console was corrected.

I could hug you right now.

I been using the Rift III for 4 years, and this is day is glorious

nekofury86

hajmyis wrote: »

mattjohnsonva wrote: »

hajmyis wrote: »

mattjohnsonva wrote: »

Years ago when the siphon drones were nerfed because they were taking folks down to zero power in all subsystems the devs told us that they should never reach zero. Drain in this game is now insane and taking someone to zero is ridiculously simple, forcing players to fit jumps, certain sets, whatever to get out of the ridiculous tykens. I was hoping that this balance pass would address this issue but clearly not, and I speak from someone with a 400+ drain build ship.

Um, no it is not insane. And what is this "force players to fit x y and z"

You know what, I had to "Fit" uber amounts of Res to fight your Dps, Jumps to fight you Destabilizing Resonance Beam, Placates to fight your ApA uber death cheese.

So now the shoe is on the another foot. It is time for all you guys to IDK, counter the other player (drain in this case).

So what if you have try new things to fight one type of build. Drains have weakness, exploit that, and when you do, I dont cry. So if someone's build cant counter the drain it is the players fault for not using other mechanics.

Childish response to a broken system that has never been addressed for years. We are supposed to be seeing a new balance meta in this game, so, anything that is virtually irresistible can hardly be considered balanced. The devs want us to try and use a varied selection of abilities, each of which adds to the total damage output of your build. Some of those abilities will have useful synergies, but none of them should be a one shot solution, hence the massive nerfs to tac buffed crit FBPs. Now, it's clear that in order to win in a 1v1 all you need is to stack drain and Tykens, that's it. I speak from 7 years experience, I have 16 toons each with niche builds, many of which have had to be redesigned many times over the years and I also have a 400 drain raider and a 600+ drain sci, in 1v1s at least nobody in our fleet stands a chance, the second the tykens is out they stop moving and die.

So yes, I am complaining and if I am listened to my own toys will be nerfed, so it's not just you that will have to adapt and not rely on a broken mechanic. We have this one chance to get PvP balanced correctly and get folks back into the best part of the game, let's not **** it up.

"We have this one chance to get PvP balanced correctly and get folks back into the best part of the game"

I agree 100% on that,

However calling my response childish, is a little over aboard. In the OP is it was stateed The Drain is Insane. However the Rift is the only thing mentioned as being "insane", it was also mentioned that "forcing players to fit...", which means there is a counter to the rift, so how is this insane.

The Rift is also not effective is one does not stay in it, so your need the High drain fora quick effect

PvP is not the best part of the game... maybe for you and the other 5 people who play it. Things like drain to zero, 500k DPS, and invincibility, among others, is the reason why STO PvP is garbage. Face it, it's a PvE game, and it does PvE quite well most of the time, but PvP... trash.

risian4

500k DPS, drain to zero etc. are as much a problem in PvE as it is in PvP though. The consequences may be less direct in PvE, but if one player can easily kill everything, then it's still detrimental for other players.

There's only so much DPSing a map/mission can have before it renders half the team expendable.



Though I do agree that Tac buffs are more troublesome than Sci abilities. Tyken's rift can support the team by disabling shields of enemies. Tac buffs allow one player to kill off everything faster, leaving nothing to shoot at for other players.

That's a very important difference.

nekofury86

risian4 wrote: »

500k DPS, drain to zero etc. are as much a problem in PvE as it is in PvP though. The consequences may be less direct in PvE, but if one player can easily kill everything, then it's still detrimental for other players.

There's only so much DPSing a map/mission can have before it renders half the team expendable.



Though I do agree that Tac buffs are more troublesome than Sci abilities. Tyken's rift can support the team by disabling shields of enemies. Tac buffs allow one player to kill off everything faster, leaving nothing to shoot at for other players.

That's a very important difference.

I agree tac captains are troublesome in PvE, especially the super high DPSers. Instead of nerfing Tactical, cryptic for some reason nerfed Science. I can get some decent burst DPS out of my sci, maybe around 100k.... well, pre nerf but she's new, doesn't even have T5 rep, yet tacticals will still have no problem hitting 300k+. I play mostly engineer because few things are as satisfying for me as being able to tank 20+ enemies and survive, and I still dish out decent damage with Delta Prime, 40k-50k steady, 70k burst, less now with the FAW nerf, but it's satisfying and queues aren't done in 2 minutes, so it's fun too.

snix

I think the key issue here is that there are Drain powers which debuff, and Disable powers which prevent operation.

Right now, Drain is doing both.

If a ship's power levels could not be drained below X (5, 10?) then the Drain powers would still be an incredibly powerful debuff, but they wouldn't also get a Disable benefit on the side.

-snix

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kyle223cat

lordsteve1 wrote: »

> @kyle223cat said:
> rattler2 wrote: »
>
> If this is true... I think the only counter right now is the Engie Nadion Inversion clicky power. I think...
>
>
>
>
> It is a counter...in theory. However from experience using nadion inversion and eps power transfer at the same time along with a decent amount of drainx (to increase drain resistances) has little effect against drains. I've heard of some people pushing 800 drainx.

Heh. I've seen people able to get drain to almost 1000 drainX skill for short periods now. Things are getting a wee bit daft.

That's crazy. Oh the things I could do with 1000 hull repair.

mooncrystalpower

Oookay, I'll give a Drain build a shot, if *I* can make a player drop to zero in all subsystems, then it DEFINITELY isn't WAI since I've NEVER built a drain boat ever really...but I'll do my best anyways! (for the record, Matt Johnson usually knows what he's talking about so I believe him on this topic...but I still wanna try a drain build ~-~º(^_~')ºv~-~ )



Season 13, new drain build, let's do it!

dracounguis

mattjohnsonva wrote: »

Drain in this game is now insane and taking someone to zero is ridiculously simple,

After the Heavy Weapon healing your target, I can fully believe that Cryptic typoed something to make drain OP by pure negligence.

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salazarraze

Awesome news! I tried out a drain build around the AoY release date and I enjoyed it but it wasn't as effective as I hoped. Looks like it's time to try it out again.

furyan

I have to agree that Tyken's Rift is way overpowered.