^ Memory Alpha.org is not canon. It's a open wiki with arbitrary rules. Only what can be cited from an episode is. ^
"No. Men do not roar. Women roar. Then they hurl heavy objects... and claw at you." -Worf, son of Mogh
"A filthy, mangy beast, but in its bony breast beat the heart of a warrior" - "faithful" (...) "but ever-ready to follow the call of the wild." - Martok, about a Targ
"That pig smelled horrid. A sweet-sour, extremely pungent odor. I showered and showered, and it took me a week to get rid of it!" - Robert Justman, appreciating Emmy-Lou
The rift does nothing to you if you aren't in it. Most other things that can get buffed the **** out of have 10k range and aren't location specific. So no, it's not OP. Is it powerful? Yes. And it really isn't alone in this. But OP? Not in my opinion.
Like, for PvP I give two examples off the top of my head: The time it doesn't take a speed tank to get 20km away from you is nuts, the sheer amount of pressure that needs to be put on a dedicated healer to bring them down, much less two working together, is nuts, and so counters to these things are, and um... kinda have to be nuts too? or else rather than a counter, they are an easily escapable irritation. It's kinda like the FBP vs Vape argument all over again. You can one shot me, so I slot FBP or a placate as a counter - because if I don't I am dead, or at the very least, MUCH easier to kill. You can get far, far out of range in less than a second, so I slot a powerful hold, or very powerful drain ability to drain engine power to zero - like, if I can't catch you, I can't kill you, but when I do, I or someone else can at least get a shot off at you.
Just like a vape build, or a dedicated heal build, or really any well thought out build played well, in 1v1 PvP a drain build is/can be OP, but in a team setting - which is what needs to be considered when thinking about balance - it's powerful, but not out of this world. When you're not in the rift, it does nothing to you. When you're not in the BO3 arc, it does nothing to you. If you're out of range of your healer, you don't get healed, if you don't shoot at FBP/Reflection/Vesta Bubble, they do nothing to you, etc, etc, etc....
I'm not even going to really talk about PvE, because uber damage, uber heals, uber cc, uber drain? What's the difference? We complete objectives and who really cares how as long as all team members feel useful and it's fun? As far as balance goes, it's the 'I don't feel like I have to run 'X' build or go home in order to feel useful' element that is important here.
As far as I'm concerned, balance should be about the player wanting to be effective at 'X' but sometimes needing to slot 'A', 'B', or 'C' to deal with 'X' and/or 'Y'. It's only when you get stuck in Cookiecutterland that you lose sight of that. The best gameplay (and arguably financial) direction for this, and frankly any game, is that the answer to 'What's the best...?' should be 'Well, it depends' 100% of the time.
If having to slot ONE thing (say, a jump) to counter something makes a build totally pointless/unviable/useless/[insert typical overexaggerated and overused forum adjective here], then, without getting into the minefield discussion about individual player ability, the build is probably not as solid as it could be. Weaknesses are, and should be there to be capitalized upon. It's 100% on the player to shore up their weak spots, and not at all on Cryptic to nerf whatever stuff any particular build is weak against. Again, different stuff is, and ought to be, useful to fight different stuff and some of said stuff ought to not be so effective against other stuff.
"So my fun is wrong?"
No. Your fun makes everyone else's fun wrong by default.
Tykens is silly OP. I been using it in core assault & there is no way that its wai.
When a TRIII training manual sells on exchange for 1.6mill there is definitely something wrong.
Tykens is silly OP. I been using it in core assault & there is no way that its wai.
When a TRIII training manual sells on exchange for 1.6mill there is definitely something wrong.
Any idea if sci team or Hazard emitter works? Or is it like Gravity well where you simply need to get out of the hazard with Evasive maneuvers?
You need to clear the hazard, there is no counter ability to it as far as I know. I play a drain build on my Lukari, using TR, ES, VM, leech and gimmicks. Most players I encountered so far I can't do anything to because the immunities and counters cancel out most of what I do (ensign science team clears ES III, VM and everything else that's not a passive (TR and leech) ). So, meh, my drainer has only little success so far.
^ Memory Alpha.org is not canon. It's a open wiki with arbitrary rules. Only what can be cited from an episode is. ^
"No. Men do not roar. Women roar. Then they hurl heavy objects... and claw at you." -Worf, son of Mogh
"A filthy, mangy beast, but in its bony breast beat the heart of a warrior" - "faithful" (...) "but ever-ready to follow the call of the wild." - Martok, about a Targ
"That pig smelled horrid. A sweet-sour, extremely pungent odor. I showered and showered, and it took me a week to get rid of it!" - Robert Justman, appreciating Emmy-Lou
Any idea if sci team or Hazard emitter works? Or is it like Gravity well where you simply need to get out of the hazard with Evasive maneuvers?
You need to clear the hazard, there is no counter ability to it as far as I know. I play a drain build on my Lukari, using TR, ES, VM, leech and gimmicks. Most players I encountered so far I can't do anything to because the immunities and counters cancel out most of what I do (ensign science team clears ES III, VM and everything else that's not a passive (TR and leech) ). So, meh, my drainer has only little success so far.
So..I use the Nandi Trait; Greedy Emitters (mostly cuz I use a sci ship and like having an anti drain option every 30 sec).Ive also used the T6 MMSVs TachyonWave Sihpon to keep my shields up when drained,Teleport (Lukari,Temporal and Delta Cores) and a doffed Evasive maneuvers (with EptE for quick Evasive cooldown)..
So..1 definite hard counter (nandi trait)..and buncha work arounds..I did a 1 hour pvp on tribble before the update yesterday on Holo..
Speed works works to fly through/around the hazard (zippy escorts im talking to you)..
Actually, I think @hajmyis post was spot on. Sci builds, and within that category, drain builds, are not the most serious problem.
It's fine if you want to correct power creep, I've always been in favour of correcting over-performing stuff. But let's fix the really problematic stuff (like ApA and stacking of tons of tactical buffs) first.
Tyken's rift is not the solution to everything (as opposed to some other stuff) and using it effectively still requires heavy specialisation into a specific skill that automatically requires huge sacrifices.
Amzaing how someone is claiming that draining was 'nerfed into the ground' btw. Please understand that 'draining' is more than just a single console. It's a bit silly (up to the point I get the impression that you have no idea what you're talking about or actually ever tried to use a true drain boat) to pretend that a whole subset of builds was nerfed because one far too important console was corrected.
I could hug you right now.
I been using the Rift III for 4 years, and this is day is glorious
Ive been using rift since the Nandi trait came out..
Wait, DrainX just got nerfed into the ground, and you want even moar nerfs?! When is it ever enough?!
Have you read the patch notes? Only the leech has been decreased and it still stakes up to -22 power from all subsystems on a 400 drain build. Tykens is the problem, it took you down to zero before the patch and now it does it a little bit quicker, so unless you have an out which doesn't require engine power, e.g. rock and roll, you're dead. The point of my post was that originally bort told us that no subsystem should ever fall below a minimum threshold, iirc it was 20 in all subsystems, I think zero is way too OP. If they are serious about balancing pvp then THIS must be looked at, otherwise all you will need on your team is a drain build to lock down anyone near to it and you're home dry.
How is this a problem? It's either OP or not. "A little bit quicker" is still only a little bit.
That, and the inherent question about why someone should never be able to be taken down to zero power. Why? Someone with enough drain should be able to immobilize their target. Granted, it might want to be more in the realm of 600 DrainX to fully suppress another player, but that should be an option.
[...] The rift does nothing to you if you aren't in it. [...]
[...] Just like a vape build, or a dedicated heal build, or really any well thought out build played well, in 1v1 PvP a drain build is/can be OP, but in a team setting - which is what needs to be considered when thinking about balance - it's powerful, but not out of this world. [...]
[...] Weaknesses are, and should be there to be capitalized upon. It's 100% on the player to shore up their weak spots, and not at all on Cryptic to nerf whatever stuff any particular build is weak against. [...]
Pertinent points from the longer post. There are ways I would build a ship for 1v1 that I wouldn't use in a team setting or open area like Kerrat or the end of Core Assault. Tyken's at 600+ DrainX, as Matt describes, is probably just about irresistible in 1v1. But in 5v5, I cast the rift on a fast-moving target and may manage to slow or stop them, may not. If I don't succeed, they turn right around and kill me, or if I do succeed but they survive with something like Continuity/Invincible or a jump, same result. Even if I finish them off, while I'm doing that my attention is divided and somebody else comes for me and tears apart my fragile but specialized drain ship.
1v1 is not representative of Core Assault or 5v5 queues, but it does show how powerful drains can be.
What about greedy emitters as a counter? Has any testing been done? Seems that if I had even a second or two to activate a power to trigger it, it should be a pretty good way to slip out of the rift.
Wait, DrainX just got nerfed into the ground, and you want even moar nerfs?! When is it ever enough?!
Have you read the patch notes? Only the leech has been decreased and it still stakes up to -22 power from all subsystems on a 400 drain build. Tykens is the problem, it took you down to zero before the patch and now it does it a little bit quicker, so unless you have an out which doesn't require engine power, e.g. rock and roll, you're dead. The point of my post was that originally bort told us that no subsystem should ever fall below a minimum threshold, iirc it was 20 in all subsystems, I think zero is way too OP. If they are serious about balancing pvp then THIS must be looked at, otherwise all you will need on your team is a drain build to lock down anyone near to it and you're home dry.
How is this a problem? It's either OP or not. "A little bit quicker" is still only a little bit.
That, and the inherent question about why someone should never be able to be taken down to zero power. Why? Someone with enough drain should be able to immobilize their target. Granted, it might want to be more in the realm of 600 DrainX to fully suppress another player, but that should be an option.
I don't think Bort ever said players shouldn't be drained fully. Only ever NPC's are never fully drained. But even if he did, indeed, why is everything that can kill you always OP? That's how SS3 got nerfed. And FBP. I'd say 400 DrainX shouldn't get you there, granted; but ppl who invested heavily into DrainX (600-800 range), why should they not be able to drain you? People die from alpha strikes all the time. Why not from DrainX?
See, this is one of the reasons I was annoyed about the nerfs: people who heavily invest in a certain type of build (I know several ppl on the forum here who specialized in DrainX), why should they immediately be punished for having specced/invest in that direction?! To me, that's part of the fun: carving out a little niche for yourself, and be deadly in it, just like the APA spamming Tacts were.
And roll an Engineer: you'll get an insane amount of drain resist from Nadion now. What, not an Engineer? Why, nobody ever complained when you were all spamming your APA like crazy, were they?
I am always pro-fun: that of me, and that of others. So, I'd say, let the DrainX ppl be, just like you are allowed to be.
P.S. And before anyone says, I myself just mainly used DrainX for the Leech; doesn't mean I begrudge others their drain builds.
[...] The rift does nothing to you if you aren't in it. [...]
What about greedy emitters as a counter? Has any testing been done? Seems that if I had even a second or two to activate a power to trigger it, it should be a pretty good way to slip out of the rift.
Testing has been done. It works..However..Greedy Emmiters can be subnuked off :P
Wait, DrainX just got nerfed into the ground, and you want even moar nerfs?! When is it ever enough?!
Have you read the patch notes? Only the leech has been decreased and it still stakes up to -22 power from all subsystems on a 400 drain build. Tykens is the problem, it took you down to zero before the patch and now it does it a little bit quicker, so unless you have an out which doesn't require engine power, e.g. rock and roll, you're dead. The point of my post was that originally bort told us that no subsystem should ever fall below a minimum threshold, iirc it was 20 in all subsystems, I think zero is way too OP. If they are serious about balancing pvp then THIS must be looked at, otherwise all you will need on your team is a drain build to lock down anyone near to it and you're home dry.
How is this a problem? It's either OP or not. "A little bit quicker" is still only a little bit.
That, and the inherent question about why someone should never be able to be taken down to zero power. Why? Someone with enough drain should be able to immobilize their target. Granted, it might want to be more in the realm of 600 DrainX to fully suppress another player, but that should be an option.
I don't think Bort ever said players shouldn't be drained fully. Only ever NPC's are never fully drained. But even if he did, indeed, why is everything that can kill you always OP? That's how SS3 got nerfed. And FBP. I'd say 400 DrainX shouldn't get you there, granted; but ppl who invested heavily into DrainX (600-800 range), why should they not be able to drain you? People die from alpha strikes all the time. Why not from DrainX?
See, this is one of the reasons I was annoyed about the nerfs: people who heavily invest in a certain type of build (I know several ppl on the forum here who specialized in DrainX), why should they immediately be punished for having specced/invest in that direction?! To me, that's part of the fun: carving out a little niche for yourself, and be deadly in it, just like the APA spamming Tacts were.
And roll an Engineer: you'll get an insane amount of drain resist from Nadion now. What, not an Engineer? Why, nobody ever complained when you were all spamming your APA like crazy, were they?
I am always pro-fun: that of me, and that of others. So, I'd say, let the DrainX ppl be, just like you are allowed to be.
P.S. And before anyone says, I myself just mainly used DrainX for the Leech; doesn't mean I begrudge others their drain builds.
1. Again with the SS3 nerf? That was like 3 years ago. I don't believe SS3 got nerfed because it just "killed people".
2. Nadion Inversion + EPS Power Transfer + a decent amount of drainx doesn't do anything vs a drainer. You should be able to counter a drain build the way you would counter any other build. When the most powerful anti-drain ability combined with another power boost ability does nothing, that's a problem.
Tyken's did NOT need a %200 increase buff , come on how can some ppl even say its okay like that ... it throws the drain resists wayyy offf tykens is now scaled way above the drainx resists with a minimum amount of drainx you are effectively as strong as a pre -13 500+drainx build with tykens ... you have to have twice as much drainx to resist a tykens now , where are people going to magically get 1600 drainx ??????
Well TSC members did a Core Assault run last night with us all on one side and we had Breen as the random enemy.
Ever been in a fight with 5+ Breen battleships spitting out Tyken's Rifts? Well you don't want to be.
We were all dead in the water with all systems on zero power within about a second of the rifts being shot on us. Literally no way to react to that sort of drain.
In some instances I was floating like a space hulk before i could even see the rift visual effect on screen.
Bare in mind we were all in science leaning vessel or science captains so we had quite a lot of resistance to drains anyway, but it made no difference.
I'm all in favour of someone who invests heavily being able to be super-effective at a chosen task. That's the benefit of such heavy bias in your build, though other areas will suffer. But the current state of affairs with drains seems to be way out of whack with any semblance of balance they were aiming for.
Well TSC members did a Core Assault run last night with us all on one side and we had Breen as the random enemy.
Ever been in a fight with 5+ Breen battleships spitting out Tyken's Rifts? Well you don't want to be.
We were all dead in the water with all systems on zero power within about a second of the rifts being shot on us. Literally no way to react to that sort of drain.
In some instances I was floating like a space hulk before i could even see the rift visual effect on screen.
Bare in mind we were all in science leaning vessel or science captains so we had quite a lot of resistance to drains anyway, but it made no difference.
I'm all in favour of someone who invests heavily being able to be super-effective at a chosen task. That's the benefit of such heavy bias in your build, though other areas will suffer. But the current state of affairs with drains seems to be way out of whack with any semblance of balance they were aiming for.
Hey you didnt run with me..I did 2 runs yesterday with and fought the Breen..If you have greedy Emmitters as a trait the Breens drains mean nothing for 15 seconds..15 seconds is more than enough time to destroy them :P
Greedy emitters is no longer really available though... and even if it was, a relatively common ability like Tyken's rift should be counterable with more than just a starship trait.
I wouldn't nerf TR though, maybe they could just add clean effects to Science or Engineering team. Or increase the resistance a player gets from Drain skill points.
I mean, aren't Drain skill points supposed to also provide resistance against incoming drain? If even people in the Science Channel who, I assume, have above average Drain skill points, are having trouble resisting it without a specific starship trait then there might be a problem.
Greedy emitters is no longer really available though... and even if it was, a relatively common ability like Tyken's rift should be counterable with more than just a starship trait.
I wouldn't nerf TR though, maybe they could just add clean effects to Science or Engineering team. Or increase the resistance a player gets from Drain skill points.
I mean, aren't Drain skill points supposed to also provide resistance against incoming drain? If even people in the Science Channel who, I assume, have above average Drain skill points, are having trouble resisting it without a specific starship trait then there might be a problem.
SO..Evasive Maneuvers gets you out of the 3km hazard pretty quickly..Full Subsytem power or 0..There are 3 Trajector/Jump core abilities in the game. I use the trait:Greedy Emmiters to SIT in the hazard while destroying NPC ships.
I think Hazards Clears the drain but if your not out of the hazard it'll reapply quickly (like TIF)..
Greedy emitters is no longer really available though... and even if it was, a relatively common ability like Tyken's rift should be counterable with more than just a starship trait.
I wouldn't nerf TR though, maybe they could just add clean effects to Science or Engineering team. Or increase the resistance a player gets from Drain skill points.
I mean, aren't Drain skill points supposed to also provide resistance against incoming drain? If even people in the Science Channel who, I assume, have above average Drain skill points, are having trouble resisting it without a specific starship trait then there might be a problem.
SO..Evasive Maneuvers gets you out of the 3km hazard pretty quickly..Full Subsytem power or 0..There are 3 Trajector/Jump core abilities in the game. I use the trait:Greedy Emmiters to SIT in the hazard while destroying NPC ships.
I think Hazards Clears the drain but if your not out of the hazard it'll reapply quickly (like TIF)..
Evasive Maneuvers needs engine power to do something though. I know about the jumps, I'm using the Temporal one and Rock and Roll might work as well. These are also abilities that cannot be used that often though, and this can be problematic if too many enemies are using it.
To be honest, I haven't faced an enemy that uses TR yet. Only experienced my own Except for a Voth Bulwark maybe, which died anyway because I had already activated Subspace Vortex.
But if things are as bad as described above when facing groups of enemies that use it from multiple directions, then an additional source of cleaning may be needed, cause if (and that IF is something I thus want to emphasise) it's near impossible to get out of the Hazard area, then we're back at the first problem.
To bad FBP got nerfed to the ground..Tykens as it is...Would make an effective counter..Not that I could use FBP against a Drain build (as @hajmyis pointed out to me :P) pre season 11... I would like to see what the drain resistance scale is for season 13.. is it 1:1 (1 point drain = 1 point resistance?) or something else.
Yeah Tyken's Rift is way too powerful at the moment.
I tested it on tribble with a toon that was unskilled in drain with no drain boosting equipment and they still totally drained all systems from another player.
Greedy emitters is no longer really available though... and even if it was, a relatively common ability like Tyken's rift should be counterable with more than just a starship trait.
I wouldn't nerf TR though, maybe they could just add clean effects to Science or Engineering team. Or increase the resistance a player gets from Drain skill points.
I mean, aren't Drain skill points supposed to also provide resistance against incoming drain? If even people in the Science Channel who, I assume, have above average Drain skill points, are having trouble resisting it without a specific starship trait then there might be a problem.
SO..Evasive Maneuvers gets you out of the 3km hazard pretty quickly..Full Subsytem power or 0..There are 3 Trajector/Jump core abilities in the game. I use the trait:Greedy Emmiters to SIT in the hazard while destroying NPC ships.
I think Hazards Clears the drain but if your not out of the hazard it'll reapply quickly (like TIF)..
Evasive Maneuvers needs engine power to do something though.....
Naw..You can use it at 0 and still clear the hazard. Engine power just determines how fast you are with Evasive Manuvers.
Yeah Tyken's Rift is way too powerful at the moment.
I tested it on tribble with a toon that was unskilled in drain with no drain boosting equipment and they still totally drained all systems from another player.
But the question then is of course whether the target had any drain resistance?
Greedy emitters is no longer really available though... and even if it was, a relatively common ability like Tyken's rift should be counterable with more than just a starship trait.
I wouldn't nerf TR though, maybe they could just add clean effects to Science or Engineering team. Or increase the resistance a player gets from Drain skill points.
I mean, aren't Drain skill points supposed to also provide resistance against incoming drain? If even people in the Science Channel who, I assume, have above average Drain skill points, are having trouble resisting it without a specific starship trait then there might be a problem.
SO..Evasive Maneuvers gets you out of the 3km hazard pretty quickly..Full Subsytem power or 0..There are 3 Trajector/Jump core abilities in the game. I use the trait:Greedy Emmiters to SIT in the hazard while destroying NPC ships.
I think Hazards Clears the drain but if your not out of the hazard it'll reapply quickly (like TIF)..
Evasive Maneuvers needs engine power to do something though.....
Naw..You can use it at 0 and still clear the hazard. Engine power just determines how fast you are with Evasive Manuvers.
lol of course it mainly determines speed... but isn't that what you need to get clear of it?
Yeah Tyken's Rift is way too powerful at the moment.
I tested it on tribble with a toon that was unskilled in drain with no drain boosting equipment and they still totally drained all systems from another player.
But the question then is of course whether the target had any drain resistance?
Greedy emitters is no longer really available though... and even if it was, a relatively common ability like Tyken's rift should be counterable with more than just a starship trait.
I wouldn't nerf TR though, maybe they could just add clean effects to Science or Engineering team. Or increase the resistance a player gets from Drain skill points.
I mean, aren't Drain skill points supposed to also provide resistance against incoming drain? If even people in the Science Channel who, I assume, have above average Drain skill points, are having trouble resisting it without a specific starship trait then there might be a problem.
SO..Evasive Maneuvers gets you out of the 3km hazard pretty quickly..Full Subsytem power or 0..There are 3 Trajector/Jump core abilities in the game. I use the trait:Greedy Emmiters to SIT in the hazard while destroying NPC ships.
I think Hazards Clears the drain but if your not out of the hazard it'll reapply quickly (like TIF)..
Evasive Maneuvers needs engine power to do something though.....
Naw..You can use it at 0 and still clear the hazard. Engine power just determines how fast you are with Evasive Manuvers.
lol of course it mainly determines speed... but isn't that what you need to get clear of it?
Ive been able to get clear at 0 engine power so..It must be like ..thrusters..
Greedy emitters is no longer really available though... and even if it was, a relatively common ability like Tyken's rift should be counterable with more than just a starship trait.
I wouldn't nerf TR though, maybe they could just add clean effects to Science or Engineering team. Or increase the resistance a player gets from Drain skill points.
I mean, aren't Drain skill points supposed to also provide resistance against incoming drain? If even people in the Science Channel who, I assume, have above average Drain skill points, are having trouble resisting it without a specific starship trait then there might be a problem.
SO..Evasive Maneuvers gets you out of the 3km hazard pretty quickly..Full Subsytem power or 0..There are 3 Trajector/Jump core abilities in the game. I use the trait:Greedy Emmiters to SIT in the hazard while destroying NPC ships.
I think Hazards Clears the drain but if your not out of the hazard it'll reapply quickly (like TIF)..
Evasive Maneuvers needs engine power to do something though.....
Naw..You can use it at 0 and still clear the hazard. Engine power just determines how fast you are with Evasive Manuvers.
Are there not passives in the pilot spec tree that let you move with zero engine power?
Greedy emitters is no longer really available though... and even if it was, a relatively common ability like Tyken's rift should be counterable with more than just a starship trait.
I wouldn't nerf TR though, maybe they could just add clean effects to Science or Engineering team. Or increase the resistance a player gets from Drain skill points.
I mean, aren't Drain skill points supposed to also provide resistance against incoming drain? If even people in the Science Channel who, I assume, have above average Drain skill points, are having trouble resisting it without a specific starship trait then there might be a problem.
SO..Evasive Maneuvers gets you out of the 3km hazard pretty quickly..Full Subsytem power or 0..There are 3 Trajector/Jump core abilities in the game. I use the trait:Greedy Emmiters to SIT in the hazard while destroying NPC ships.
I think Hazards Clears the drain but if your not out of the hazard it'll reapply quickly (like TIF)..
Evasive Maneuvers needs engine power to do something though.....
Naw..You can use it at 0 and still clear the hazard. Engine power just determines how fast you are with Evasive Maneuvers.
Are there not passives in the pilot spec tree that let you move with zero engine power?
Maneuvering Thrusters I and II..Tho..I dont use Pilot Spec...
People are ready to trade shots with torps, energy weapons and will be naturally inclined towards that style of fighting.
But Science? Science plays a different ballgame with different counters that many are not acclimated to and not built for.
Those Cruisers and Escorts you should be careful about. But it's that one Science Vessel sitting in the back is what's going to set you up for everyone to kill you.
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Like, for PvP I give two examples off the top of my head: The time it doesn't take a speed tank to get 20km away from you is nuts, the sheer amount of pressure that needs to be put on a dedicated healer to bring them down, much less two working together, is nuts, and so counters to these things are, and um... kinda have to be nuts too? or else rather than a counter, they are an easily escapable irritation. It's kinda like the FBP vs Vape argument all over again. You can one shot me, so I slot FBP or a placate as a counter - because if I don't I am dead, or at the very least, MUCH easier to kill. You can get far, far out of range in less than a second, so I slot a powerful hold, or very powerful drain ability to drain engine power to zero - like, if I can't catch you, I can't kill you, but when I do, I or someone else can at least get a shot off at you.
Just like a vape build, or a dedicated heal build, or really any well thought out build played well, in 1v1 PvP a drain build is/can be OP, but in a team setting - which is what needs to be considered when thinking about balance - it's powerful, but not out of this world. When you're not in the rift, it does nothing to you. When you're not in the BO3 arc, it does nothing to you. If you're out of range of your healer, you don't get healed, if you don't shoot at FBP/Reflection/Vesta Bubble, they do nothing to you, etc, etc, etc....
I'm not even going to really talk about PvE, because uber damage, uber heals, uber cc, uber drain? What's the difference? We complete objectives and who really cares how as long as all team members feel useful and it's fun? As far as balance goes, it's the 'I don't feel like I have to run 'X' build or go home in order to feel useful' element that is important here.
As far as I'm concerned, balance should be about the player wanting to be effective at 'X' but sometimes needing to slot 'A', 'B', or 'C' to deal with 'X' and/or 'Y'. It's only when you get stuck in Cookiecutterland that you lose sight of that. The best gameplay (and arguably financial) direction for this, and frankly any game, is that the answer to 'What's the best...?' should be 'Well, it depends' 100% of the time.
If having to slot ONE thing (say, a jump) to counter something makes a build totally pointless/unviable/useless/[insert typical overexaggerated and overused forum adjective here], then, without getting into the minefield discussion about individual player ability, the build is probably not as solid as it could be. Weaknesses are, and should be there to be capitalized upon. It's 100% on the player to shore up their weak spots, and not at all on Cryptic to nerf whatever stuff any particular build is weak against. Again, different stuff is, and ought to be, useful to fight different stuff and some of said stuff ought to not be so effective against other stuff.
No. Your fun makes everyone else's fun wrong by default.
When a TRIII training manual sells on exchange for 1.6mill there is definitely something wrong.
LOL Yeah, that's a good sign.
Rouge Sto Wiki Editor.
You need to clear the hazard, there is no counter ability to it as far as I know. I play a drain build on my Lukari, using TR, ES, VM, leech and gimmicks. Most players I encountered so far I can't do anything to because the immunities and counters cancel out most of what I do (ensign science team clears ES III, VM and everything else that's not a passive (TR and leech) ). So, meh, my drainer has only little success so far.
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So..I use the Nandi Trait; Greedy Emitters (mostly cuz I use a sci ship and like having an anti drain option every 30 sec).Ive also used the T6 MMSVs TachyonWave Sihpon to keep my shields up when drained,Teleport (Lukari,Temporal and Delta Cores) and a doffed Evasive maneuvers (with EptE for quick Evasive cooldown)..
So..1 definite hard counter (nandi trait)..and buncha work arounds..I did a 1 hour pvp on tribble before the update yesterday on Holo..
Speed works works to fly through/around the hazard (zippy escorts im talking to you)..
Greedy emitters is nukeable tho...
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Ive been using rift since the Nandi trait came out..
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How is this a problem? It's either OP or not. "A little bit quicker" is still only a little bit.
That, and the inherent question about why someone should never be able to be taken down to zero power. Why? Someone with enough drain should be able to immobilize their target. Granted, it might want to be more in the realm of 600 DrainX to fully suppress another player, but that should be an option.
Pertinent points from the longer post. There are ways I would build a ship for 1v1 that I wouldn't use in a team setting or open area like Kerrat or the end of Core Assault. Tyken's at 600+ DrainX, as Matt describes, is probably just about irresistible in 1v1. But in 5v5, I cast the rift on a fast-moving target and may manage to slow or stop them, may not. If I don't succeed, they turn right around and kill me, or if I do succeed but they survive with something like Continuity/Invincible or a jump, same result. Even if I finish them off, while I'm doing that my attention is divided and somebody else comes for me and tears apart my fragile but specialized drain ship.
1v1 is not representative of Core Assault or 5v5 queues, but it does show how powerful drains can be.
What about greedy emitters as a counter? Has any testing been done? Seems that if I had even a second or two to activate a power to trigger it, it should be a pretty good way to slip out of the rift.
I don't think Bort ever said players shouldn't be drained fully. Only ever NPC's are never fully drained. But even if he did, indeed, why is everything that can kill you always OP? That's how SS3 got nerfed. And FBP. I'd say 400 DrainX shouldn't get you there, granted; but ppl who invested heavily into DrainX (600-800 range), why should they not be able to drain you? People die from alpha strikes all the time. Why not from DrainX?
See, this is one of the reasons I was annoyed about the nerfs: people who heavily invest in a certain type of build (I know several ppl on the forum here who specialized in DrainX), why should they immediately be punished for having specced/invest in that direction?! To me, that's part of the fun: carving out a little niche for yourself, and be deadly in it, just like the APA spamming Tacts were.
And roll an Engineer: you'll get an insane amount of drain resist from Nadion now.
I am always pro-fun: that of me, and that of others. So, I'd say, let the DrainX ppl be, just like you are allowed to be.
P.S. And before anyone says, I myself just mainly used DrainX for the Leech; doesn't mean I begrudge others their drain builds.
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1. Again with the SS3 nerf? That was like 3 years ago. I don't believe SS3 got nerfed because it just "killed people".
2. Nadion Inversion + EPS Power Transfer + a decent amount of drainx doesn't do anything vs a drainer. You should be able to counter a drain build the way you would counter any other build. When the most powerful anti-drain ability combined with another power boost ability does nothing, that's a problem.
Ever been in a fight with 5+ Breen battleships spitting out Tyken's Rifts? Well you don't want to be.
We were all dead in the water with all systems on zero power within about a second of the rifts being shot on us. Literally no way to react to that sort of drain.
In some instances I was floating like a space hulk before i could even see the rift visual effect on screen.
Bare in mind we were all in science leaning vessel or science captains so we had quite a lot of resistance to drains anyway, but it made no difference.
I'm all in favour of someone who invests heavily being able to be super-effective at a chosen task. That's the benefit of such heavy bias in your build, though other areas will suffer. But the current state of affairs with drains seems to be way out of whack with any semblance of balance they were aiming for.
Hey you didnt run with me..I did 2 runs yesterday with and fought the Breen..If you have greedy Emmitters as a trait the Breens drains mean nothing for 15 seconds..15 seconds is more than enough time to destroy them :P
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What's insane's got no drain! I mean brain. Sorry, I couldn't help finishing the lyric of bad old rap song.
I wouldn't nerf TR though, maybe they could just add clean effects to Science or Engineering team. Or increase the resistance a player gets from Drain skill points.
I mean, aren't Drain skill points supposed to also provide resistance against incoming drain? If even people in the Science Channel who, I assume, have above average Drain skill points, are having trouble resisting it without a specific starship trait then there might be a problem.
SO..Evasive Maneuvers gets you out of the 3km hazard pretty quickly..Full Subsytem power or 0..There are 3 Trajector/Jump core abilities in the game. I use the trait:Greedy Emmiters to SIT in the hazard while destroying NPC ships.
I think Hazards Clears the drain but if your not out of the hazard it'll reapply quickly (like TIF)..
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Evasive Maneuvers needs engine power to do something though. I know about the jumps, I'm using the Temporal one and Rock and Roll might work as well. These are also abilities that cannot be used that often though, and this can be problematic if too many enemies are using it.
To be honest, I haven't faced an enemy that uses TR yet. Only experienced my own
But if things are as bad as described above when facing groups of enemies that use it from multiple directions, then an additional source of cleaning may be needed, cause if (and that IF is something I thus want to emphasise) it's near impossible to get out of the Hazard area, then we're back at the first problem.
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I tested it on tribble with a toon that was unskilled in drain with no drain boosting equipment and they still totally drained all systems from another player.
Daizen - Lvl 60 Tactical - Eclipse
Selia - Lvl 60 Tactical - Eclipse
Naw..You can use it at 0 and still clear the hazard. Engine power just determines how fast you are with Evasive Manuvers.
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But the question then is of course whether the target had any drain resistance?
lol of course it mainly determines speed... but isn't that what you need to get clear of it?
Ive been able to get clear at 0 engine power so..It must be like ..thrusters..
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Are there not passives in the pilot spec tree that let you move with zero engine power?
Maneuvering Thrusters I and II..Tho..I dont use Pilot Spec...
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People are ready to trade shots with torps, energy weapons and will be naturally inclined towards that style of fighting.
But Science? Science plays a different ballgame with different counters that many are not acclimated to and not built for.
Those Cruisers and Escorts you should be careful about. But it's that one Science Vessel sitting in the back is what's going to set you up for everyone to kill you.