Guys?
This might be a good time to leave the game to Olivia.
Besides this will rage forever. No need to rage at each other. It is like throwing matches into the sun.
yeah, I know, I ignored it the first time but then he decided to wave it in my face. his views on MA and "canon" are too nonsensical to be worth arguing about.
yeah, I know, I ignored it the first time but then he decided to wave it in my face. his views on MA and "canon" are too nonsensical to be worth arguing about.
yeah, I know, I ignored it the first time but then he decided to wave it in my face. his views on MA and "canon" are too nonsensical to be worth arguing about.
this whole thread is too nonsensical to put any real seriousness into it :P
The OliviaClaire threads do that to a person. They're kinda pointless
"The meaning of victory is not to merely defeat your enemy but to destroy him, to completely eradicate him from living memory, to leave no remnant of his endeavours, to crush utterly his achievement and remove from all record his every trace of existence. From that defeat no enemy can ever recover. That is the meaning of victory."
-Lord Commander Solar Macharius
Scratch the "close" match, it is a perfect match! The wording may be slightly different between "built for combat performance" and "designed for combat" but the meaning is exactly the same.
Additionally, the evidence proves that the Galaxy-class, which is described as explorer, is a warship too.
Canonical evidence
In TNG: "The Enemy", Picard addresses Tomalak in a Romulan Warbird with this line:
PICARD: Commander, both our ships are ready to fight. We have two extremely powerful and destructive arsenals at our command. . . .
An explorer vessel with "extremely powerful and destructive arsenal", comparable to a warbird, makes the Galaxy-class a warship too.
I love this. Thank you for bringing it into my life.
An explorer vessel with "extremely powerful and destructive arsenal", comparable to a warbird, makes the Galaxy-class a warship too.
Well this is a matter of perception. If I buy a Ferrari La Ferrari, and only used it to pop to the local shops at a leisurely 30 mph pace, does that make it a hypercar? Nope. If you buy a Pitbull terrier puppy, and raise him to be soft and cute, will that mean that he is still classed as dangerous? Again, nope.
The Galaxy Class starships were for deep space exploration. This means that they run the risk of bumping into some unfriendly sorts, and would need to defend themselves, hence why they always refer to their "defensive" capabilities. Yes in reality, the Galaxy Class are formidable, but that was not it's primary purpose.
A real world example for you. My mum used to own a brand new sporty BMW. On many occasions, she would pull up to traffic lights, and then she would have some spotty teenager pull up next to her in an old crappy hatchback, revving its tired tiny engine, offering her a "challenge". Instead of rising to it, she simply let him speed off. When I asked her why, she simply said "He knows what i've got under my bonnet, you know what i've got, and I know what i've got. So what have I got to prove?".
As you've pointed out, Picard uses this very same thought process in his "negotiations". He politely informs his antagonists what he's got up his sleeves, and the aggressor normally sulks off.
I kinda love your Mom, she's awesome. Wish she could be our president...but she's British.
Additionally, the evidence proves that the Galaxy-class, which is described as explorer, is a warship too.
yes because everyone puts children and non-starfleet dependents on a dedicated warship -.-
also, the Galaxy gets its **** shot off regularly anytime it meets an actual Warship, like said Romulan warbird or anything built by the Dominion.
@oliviaclaire I think your own BS is rotting your brain, your posts are getting worse and more ignorant than ever
Actually the Galaxy class did better than most Federation ships. Infact during the Dominion war only 1 Galaxy class was lost in combat and that was the Odyssey. Only other of the class lost was the Enterprise D, and really, kinda not surprising when the Duras sisters got the shield frequency of Enterprise.
Overall Galaxies were very EFFECTIVE warships. Though that was simply because of how large they were and how many weapons they put into the ship and even then, it was minimal to what really could be put on the ship.
The Galaxy classes in the Dominion War were absolute savages. Any scene you see with them they were just carving a path of burning destruction. I think they were grieving the loss of the Enterprise-D and were out to avenge the Odyssey.
also, the Galaxy gets its **** shot off regularly anytime it meets an actual Warship, like said Romulan warbird or anything built by the Dominion.
@oliviaclaire I think your own BS is rotting your brain, your posts are getting worse and more ignorant than ever
Oh no - that old chestnut again?
Only one Galaxy class ship "gots its **** shot off" Vs the Dominion; the Odyssey. And that was because it was facing a foe they, at the time, knew NOTHING about using weapons that they were unfamiliar with that rendered their shields useless. A foe that knew what Starfleet could do quite well - and despite all this the Odyssey was still able to tank the attacks and attempt retreat under it's own power. Oh yes - and it was a damn kamikaze run that took her out and NO ship would have survived that.
The bug ship rammed her right in the Warp Core too. And by the Jem'Hadar's rules they lost...you know, since Victory is Life.
Not getting back onto the main debate, but just a quick FYI: Worf's action was not situationally appropriate -- that's why he was on trial... It may have been understandable, but that doesn't make it correct. The point which was made very clear by both O'Brien's testimony, and Sisko's lecture afterwards, was that as a commander you make damned sure of your target before giving the order to fire... Worf failed to do that...
Normal thread may now resume...
"Technically tactically appropriate" does not mean "correct." It's a heavily qualified statement that intends to imply the other angles which you felt necessary to explain. We can tell that from the following (which you felt necessary not to highlight):
I take this example as evidence that a Starfleet-captain is usually under orders to let an attacker shoot him until it's 100% clear that talking won't work.
Which implicitly references the opinion that it's not acceptable for a Starfleet officer to make "technically tactically appropriate" decisions because they can come at a disastrous cost to innocent lives. Tactics are not what Starfleet is solely concerned with.
You may resume your normal activities.
(and this reply is only coming on the fact that you felt it necessary to drop a "I'll just leave this here" to quibble about a detail not in dispute and was only mentioned in support of another point. You may want to have your moment, but do consider the fact that other people are trying to have a discussion.)
Overall Galaxies were very EFFECTIVE warships. Though that was simply because of how large they were and how many weapons they put into the ship and even then, it was minimal to what really could be put on the ship.
To be fair though, they could also pretty unwieldy. The Galaxy was a large ship built with a lot of other roles in mind (ex. housing a significant civilian population.) It was a Federation powerhouse (very much so) but the Sovereign takes up the idea that you can have a ship like that but built a little more specifically to handle combat.
It'd be interesting to compare that, however, to the Odyssey, if anyone ever came up with a convincing set of stats for it. The overall design seems to imply that Starfleet wanted to go back a little more to the Galaxy model of Starfleet Cruisers (maybe not to the same degree, but backing off from the state they were in midst of the Dominion War. Either that or a more elaborate hull isn't quite as "tactically suboptimal" in 2410.)
There are other things to consider when it comes to the ship's shape, such as warp field geometry. The Galaxy was one path of warp field design. When they eliminated the neck on Starfleet ships after the Borg encounters they entered a new direction.
Almost all Late 24th century starships had saucer sections that were longer than wide, something that was a departure from the Wider oval saucers of the 22nd and mid 24th century as well as the uniform circular saucers of the 23rd century. We also know that by the 26th century, we'll have wide ones again with the Enterprise-J.
A lot of people criticize the concept of families on the Galaxy class, but it was supposed to be a long term deep deep space exploration vessel. Seven to Twenty year missions with little or no support. That kind of exploration mission will basically destroy a family, you come home and your kid is an adult. Conversely, with that much crew and that much time, you're gonna have families started on the ship. It's one step down from a colony ship and two steps down from a generation ship. Any ship with such precious cargo would have to be well armed and ready. And what mission will be safe and which could become a combat mission cannot be predicted.
Indeed. There's no ship that can take that kind of hit and live. And had Odyssey not taken that hit, she'd of likely been able to withdraw.
Well the bug ship slammed itself into the deflector array and debris from the initial impact smashed the starboard nacelle to sh*t and back, so there was no possible way for the Oddy to recover.
When we are talking about impressive shield pens, I think my fave will always be the torp shot from Changs's BoP (Star Trek 6) went straight through the saucer. You even get a brief shot of the conference room being destroyed in the process.
yeah poor Enterprise A. She got the holy living hell beat out of her in that fight, but atleast she got some vengeance in the end. Because you have to admit, it was an impressive shot of that BoP exploding.
Indeed. There's no ship that can take that kind of hit and live. And had Odyssey not taken that hit, she'd of likely been able to withdraw.
Well the bug ship slammed itself into the deflector array and debris from the initial impact smashed the starboard nacelle to sh*t and back, so there was no possible way for the Oddy to recover.
That's the sad thing - whilst I won't argue that the Odyssey would have survived the hit, it might have lasted just long enough to try an emergency saucer-separation had that piece of debris not hit the nacelle.
Even if she had, she wouldn't of been able to warp out Reyan. At that point Odyssey was screwed.
I know - but some of her crew might have at least survived.
Fortunately all the civilians were at least offloaded at DS9. Damn shame though.
"Rise like Lions after slumber, In unvanquishable number, Shake your chains to earth like dew, Which in sleep had fallen on you-Ye are many they are few"
I definitely wouldn't protest if I could get my hands on the Warship Intrepid depicted in the episode "Living Witness". <drools> The extra heavy phaser cannons/lances on that ship look fantastic.
Well I think the op is fishing here, as it was made a science ship, because that is how the ship ended up serving as. It might have been intended for a short range combat but it became something else. Also you never see a Intrepid in any combat capacity along the lines of full scale war in DS9. You see it being used in a diplomatic function.
As for what a ship is or isnt really comes down to game design. Something we learn from the shows is how a ship is used depends on the captain and the circumstances. Hell at several points the Defiant was used for research. Then again if you really open up ships like that in game, well balance would cease to exist. To be clear cease to exist even more so then now.
As for ship designs. First contact was a superb movie but it also had a small flaw. Up to that time frame starfleet was made out of Constitution class starships, Miranda/warship class, and Excelsior class starships. That design lasted for many years in starfleet. Then the next generation of ships, aka Galaxy,Nebula, Intrepid, and Defiant. Suddenly before these ships had been fully used we are shot forward into the Sovereign, and Akira class era. STO well cant make up its mind one way or the other. The star cruisers were originally supposed to be the sto era of fed ships, then it was changed, and again changed. I know I know money. I guess my point with this last point is things are no longer streamlined. You really cant say what ship is or is not anymore.
In the tos series the impression you got was all starfleet ships were constitution class starships, and all klingon ships were D7 class battle cruisers. A ship class used for exploration, patrol, combat duty, and war. Essentially two classes of all purpose ships able to handle any task. Over time this changed completely, up to first contact there still was some symmetry, but afterwards not so much.
My final point I would be careful, if you want to stick strictly to cannon naming any ship one specific type. At least from a fed perspective. On the Klingon side its real simple warships used to conquer.
Necessity is the mother of invention and diversity in special FX the enemy of Television show production.
Fortunately, they coincide. For centuries there have been multiple designs of naval vessel for different mission profiles with people of different training. The modern Navy had a wide variety of ships, with new types coming into service all the time.
The Producers of the Next Generation said at that time Starfleet was about 30,000 ships. It was established early in TNG that the Galaxy class numbered only 6 in production with an option for 6 more. Then real world events necessitated Starfleet utilizing the class much more than initially anticipated with much more conflict breaking out from the Borg to the Dominion causing more to be built. That's 29,988 ships unaccounted for. That won't be down to a dozen ship classes for ALL Starfleet functions. Nor will ALL of the older ships be put out to pasture unless they just can't keep up with increases in technology.
Fortunately when the time came to depict that with the Dominion War, SFX technology had advanced to the point where CGI could actually depict multiple ship classes at once, in the numbers that would make sense.
The fact that the Sovereign has been deployed doesn't mean they retire the Galaxy, since it's designed for a hundred year life cycle same as the Excelsior and the Ambassador before it.
OK, all joking aside, I can see the point lordsteve1 is making above. Liberty ships in WW2 had guns, but were not main combatants.
Still I think going back to TOS, and the Technical Manual we can see the inherent military aspect of all the designs. General Order 24 is a thing. The main difference between a Hermes and a Constitution in carrying out that order is probably time based. If it takes a Connie a day, lets say it takes Hermie four days. Both might be expected to do that mission though, so even though the emphasis might vary for each ship class, at the end of the day they are both science ships, and war ships at the same time.
The distinction after that is political. Explorers are more acceptable to Federation tax payers than battle ships would be, so for that purpose none of them are warships. When the Borg show up, all of them are warships, and we just don't brag about that detail to the tax payers. It also helps explain why 'we' get slaughtered at Wolf 359. They are science ships.
Last thing; The ships are whatever the writers say they are for this episode, or even just this scene, so this can't really be a discussion that ends with a decisive result.
Qapla'!
I'm not sure the Federation has taxes since it doesn't utilize modern capitalism. Probably why the people are so happy.
The technologies you'd use on a top tier exploration ship are the same as the ones you would use on a top tier warship.
Powerful engines: for High speed for travel/responding to a crisis
Advanced Sensors: Long ranged detail scanning/targeting
Powerful Shields: For dealing with environmental hazards/defending oneself against an enemy
Strong Armor: For when the shields fail
Weaponry: Shoot back against the unknown/Shoot back against the Known
Probes: Long distance research/Intelligence gathering
heck even the
Cloaking Device: Research on a population without disturbing or contaminating their culture/Stealth Strikes
You can call Voygaer a warship if you want. Most of starfleet ships, outside of a few like Oberth and/or the one with a ball-head are quite armed.
So if anyone that thought they had a easy prey, but only ended up with a bloodied noise and some shattered ribs are complaining about feds are flying warships let them.
Olympic class. Though in the case of the Pasteur, it was a hospital ship, so her armament may have been heavily restricted (read: non-existent) by treaty.
Starfleet then turned around and named a Galaxy class ship after the space shuttle. The space shuttle was definitely NOT a warship.
Starfleet has maintained a tradition in line with Earth's Navies, including utilizing old ship names.
WORF: I have completed a survey of our tactical systems. We are equipped with ten phaser banks, two hundred and fifty photon torpedoes, and a high capacity shield grid. MACDUFF: We're a battleship. WORF: It appears so.
That statement was made by Keiran MacDuff, an alien who had infiltrated the ship and was purposefully trying to manipulate the crew into a militant situation. And he was playing on Worf's Klingon instincts. That same Worf who assumed he was the Captain because he had the most bling. So his assertion that the Enterprise was a Battleship is not only suspect, we know it's blatantly manipulative.
Just because it's armed like a battleship, doesn't actually make it one.
"Rise like Lions after slumber, In unvanquishable number, Shake your chains to earth like dew, Which in sleep had fallen on you-Ye are many they are few"
I definitely wouldn't protest if I could get my hands on the Warship Intrepid depicted in the episode "Living Witness". <drools> The extra heavy phaser cannons/lances on that ship look fantastic.
Well I think the op is fishing here, as it was made a science ship, because that is how the ship ended up serving as. It might have been intended for a short range combat but it became something else. Also you never see a Intrepid in any combat capacity along the lines of full scale war in DS9. You see it being used in a diplomatic function.
As for what a ship is or isnt really comes down to game design. Something we learn from the shows is how a ship is used depends on the captain and the circumstances. Hell at several points the Defiant was used for research. Then again if you really open up ships like that in game, well balance would cease to exist. To be clear cease to exist even more so then now.
As for ship designs. First contact was a superb movie but it also had a small flaw. Up to that time frame starfleet was made out of Constitution class starships, Miranda/warship class, and Excelsior class starships. That design lasted for many years in starfleet. Then the next generation of ships, aka Galaxy,Nebula, Intrepid, and Defiant. Suddenly before these ships had been fully used we are shot forward into the Sovereign, and Akira class era. STO well cant make up its mind one way or the other. The star cruisers were originally supposed to be the sto era of fed ships, then it was changed, and again changed. I know I know money. I guess my point with this last point is things are no longer streamlined. You really cant say what ship is or is not anymore.
In the tos series the impression you got was all starfleet ships were constitution class starships, and all klingon ships were D7 class battle cruisers. A ship class used for exploration, patrol, combat duty, and war. Essentially two classes of all purpose ships able to handle any task. Over time this changed completely, up to first contact there still was some symmetry, but afterwards not so much.
My final point I would be careful, if you want to stick strictly to cannon naming any ship one specific type. At least from a fed perspective. On the Klingon side its real simple warships used to conquer.
Necessity is the mother of invention and diversity in special FX the enemy of Television show production.
Fortunately, they coincide. For centuries there have been multiple designs of naval vessel for different mission profiles with people of different training. The modern Navy had a wide variety of ships, with new types coming into service all the time.
The Producers of the Next Generation said at that time Starfleet was about 30,000 ships. It was established early in TNG that the Galaxy class numbered only 6 in production with an option for 6 more. Then real world events necessitated Starfleet utilizing the class much more than initially anticipated with much more conflict breaking out from the Borg to the Dominion causing more to be built. That's 29,988 ships unaccounted for. That won't be down to a dozen ship classes for ALL Starfleet functions. Nor will ALL of the older ships be put out to pasture unless they just can't keep up with increases in technology.
Fortunately when the time came to depict that with the Dominion War, SFX technology had advanced to the point where CGI could actually depict multiple ship classes at once, in the numbers that would make sense.
The fact that the Sovereign has been deployed doesn't mean they retire the Galaxy, since it's designed for a hundred year life cycle same as the Excelsior and the Ambassador before it.
OK, all joking aside, I can see the point lordsteve1 is making above. Liberty ships in WW2 had guns, but were not main combatants.
Still I think going back to TOS, and the Technical Manual we can see the inherent military aspect of all the designs. General Order 24 is a thing. The main difference between a Hermes and a Constitution in carrying out that order is probably time based. If it takes a Connie a day, lets say it takes Hermie four days. Both might be expected to do that mission though, so even though the emphasis might vary for each ship class, at the end of the day they are both science ships, and war ships at the same time.
The distinction after that is political. Explorers are more acceptable to Federation tax payers than battle ships would be, so for that purpose none of them are warships. When the Borg show up, all of them are warships, and we just don't brag about that detail to the tax payers. It also helps explain why 'we' get slaughtered at Wolf 359. They are science ships.
Last thing; The ships are whatever the writers say they are for this episode, or even just this scene, so this can't really be a discussion that ends with a decisive result.
Qapla'!
I'm not sure the Federation has taxes since it doesn't utilize modern capitalism. Probably why the people are so happy.
The technologies you'd use on a top tier exploration ship are the same as the ones you would use on a top tier warship.
Powerful engines: for High speed for travel/responding to a crisis
Advanced Sensors: Long ranged detail scanning/targeting
Powerful Shields: For dealing with environmental hazards/defending oneself against an enemy
Strong Armor: For when the shields fail
Weaponry: Shoot back against the unknown/Shoot back against the Known
Probes: Long distance research/Intelligence gathering
heck even the
Cloaking Device: Research on a population without disturbing or contaminating their culture/Stealth Strikes
You can call Voygaer a warship if you want. Most of starfleet ships, outside of a few like Oberth and/or the one with a ball-head are quite armed.
So if anyone that thought they had a easy prey, but only ended up with a bloodied noise and some shattered ribs are complaining about feds are flying warships let them.
Olympic class. Though in the case of the Pasteur, it was a hospital ship, so her armament may have been heavily restricted (read: non-existent) by treaty.
Starfleet then turned around and named a Galaxy class ship after the space shuttle. The space shuttle was definitely NOT a warship.
Starfleet has maintained a tradition in line with Earth's Navies, including utilizing old ship names.
WORF: I have completed a survey of our tactical systems. We are equipped with ten phaser banks, two hundred and fifty photon torpedoes, and a high capacity shield grid. MACDUFF: We're a battleship. WORF: It appears so.
That statement was made by Keiran MacDuff, an alien who had infiltrated the ship and was purposefully trying to manipulate the crew into a militant situation. And he was playing on Worf's Klingon instincts. That same Worf who assumed he was the Captain because he had the most bling. So his assertion that the Enterprise was a Battleship is not only suspect, we know it's blatantly manipulative.
Just because it's armed like a battleship, doesn't actually make it one.
NASA doesn't do the Court Marshal. The Uniformed member gets sent back to their perspective Unit/Service and then goes through Court Marshal.
NASA does not conduct Court Marshal. Example. USAF pilot breaks the Uniformed Code of Military Justice(the military law that applies to all servicemen/women, but not to civilian NASA personnel), that pilot is sent back to the USAF unit he was on loan from, then that unit does the Court Marshal.
Star Trek Battles member. Want to roll with a good group of people regardless of fleets and not have to worry about DPS while doing STFs? Come join the channel and join in the fun!
NASA doesn't do the Court Marshal. The Uniformed member gets sent back to their perspective Unit/Service and then goes through Court Marshal.
NASA does not conduct Court Marshal. Example. USAF pilot breaks the Uniformed Code of Military Justice(the military law that applies to all servicemen/women, but not to civilian NASA personnel), that pilot is sent back to the USAF unit he was on loan from, then that unit does the Court Marshal.
Right, that's what it said, I just wanted to know if there was anyone else with other input, but that sounds right to me.
In that regard Starfleet and NASA fit what I think it was Kirk said, "an integrated service".
In Enterprise in a way we saw the integration in progress, with Starfleet and MACO. There's also the question of where the old United Earth Space Probe Agency falls in.
It could easily have been that the Federation Starfleet is simply the ultimate evolution of several services.
So Starfleet as it's military-esque named implies starts out as the United Earth's defense force, you have the United Earth Space Probe Agency, which is responsible for exploration, MACO which is basically the Marines of Starfleet a deployable ground military unit, and the Cochrane Warp 5 Complex scientific organization. With the development of the warp 5 engine making a long range starship possible, Starfleet by default became the most capable exploration agency. They would then as a result of who they encountered become the first line of defense, defense agency. And on that note they would also become the first line of diplomacy as well. Therefore Starfleet's capability by the time of the Federation became that they were the most capable of all of the agencies at doing each job. They were the most capable of exploration, the best equipped for defense, the testing ground for the latest technologies, and the de facto diplomatic face. All of that hasn't changed since 2361.
"Rise like Lions after slumber, In unvanquishable number, Shake your chains to earth like dew, Which in sleep had fallen on you-Ye are many they are few"
NASA doesn't do the Court Marshal. The Uniformed member gets sent back to their perspective Unit/Service and then goes through Court Marshal.
NASA does not conduct Court Marshal. Example. USAF pilot breaks the Uniformed Code of Military Justice(the military law that applies to all servicemen/women, but not to civilian NASA personnel), that pilot is sent back to the USAF unit he was on loan from, then that unit does the Court Marshal.
I am not a native speaker or writer, but isn't it "Court Martial"?
Marshals are agents of the Federal Courts, but that is not related directly to Court Martial.
Star Trek Online Advancement: You start with lowbie gear, you end with Lobi gear.
NASA doesn't do the Court Marshal. The Uniformed member gets sent back to their perspective Unit/Service and then goes through Court Marshal.
NASA does not conduct Court Marshal. Example. USAF pilot breaks the Uniformed Code of Military Justice(the military law that applies to all servicemen/women, but not to civilian NASA personnel), that pilot is sent back to the USAF unit he was on loan from, then that unit does the Court Marshal.
I am not a native speaker or writer, but isn't it "Court Martial"?
Marshals are agents of the Federal Courts, but that is not related directly to Court Martial.
Court Marshal is the military form of a Trial. There are some rules as the same as a standard trial, but there are many other changes that are specific to Trial by Court Marshal.
Star Trek Battles member. Want to roll with a good group of people regardless of fleets and not have to worry about DPS while doing STFs? Come join the channel and join in the fun!
I understand completely what artan's point is. You & he seem not to understand my point which is that canon is less important than the franchise owners & filmmakers & always will be. "Canon" after all is rampantly self contradicting & always has been, & there is no good reason to hold it as some kind of gospel.
This however shows that you do not understand what the point is. Canon is less important than opinion or intend when discussing canon? There is literally no problem when we all use canon, as defined by CBS, as a baseline and mark everything that surpasses it as opinion that however can be based on background information and let it stand open for debate. It doesn't make it canonical, though. Star Trek canon is not complicated. It just is perceived as such because many people don't like it and simply go on and make stuff up. It's not possible to have a reasonable discussion that way.
As a MA contributor I find his attitude toward MA to be obnoxiously condescending. Especially given the.... strange rules he uses for deciding what is canon.
Also "proper attribution" requires no more than specifying which episode, movie, etc... that the information came from.
The remark of you being a MA contributor is superflous. For example, I am as well. This is because MA is a open wiki which doesn't even require registration to contribute to it. And that's the problem, a lot of the material on MA is not properly cited, making it baseless. This has nothing to do with canon or Memory Alpha or someone being biased, this is a basic issue about working with sources. You wouldn't use claims without proper citation in scientific works. And yes, proper attribution requires exactly that. Things written on MA that do not fulfill that basic requirement have no business being on MA and cannot be included in a canon discussion. You can still include them as opinionated pieces and discuss them, though.
^ Memory Alpha.org is not canon. It's a open wiki with arbitrary rules. Only what can be cited from an episode is. ^
"No. Men do not roar. Women roar. Then they hurl heavy objects... and claw at you." -Worf, son of Mogh
"A filthy, mangy beast, but in its bony breast beat the heart of a warrior" - "faithful" (...) "but ever-ready to follow the call of the wild." - Martok, about a Targ
"That pig smelled horrid. A sweet-sour, extremely pungent odor. I showered and showered, and it took me a week to get rid of it!" - Robert Justman, appreciating Emmy-Lou
NASA doesn't do the Court Marshal. The Uniformed member gets sent back to their perspective Unit/Service and then goes through Court Marshal.
NASA does not conduct Court Marshal. Example. USAF pilot breaks the Uniformed Code of Military Justice(the military law that applies to all servicemen/women, but not to civilian NASA personnel), that pilot is sent back to the USAF unit he was on loan from, then that unit does the Court Marshal.
I am not a native speaker or writer, but isn't it "Court Martial"?
Marshals are agents of the Federal Courts, but that is not related directly to Court Martial.
Court Marshal is the military form of a Trial. There are some rules as the same as a standard trial, but there are many other changes that are specific to Trial by Court Marshal.
NASA doesn't do the Court Marshal. The Uniformed member gets sent back to their perspective Unit/Service and then goes through Court Marshal.
NASA does not conduct Court Marshal. Example. USAF pilot breaks the Uniformed Code of Military Justice(the military law that applies to all servicemen/women, but not to civilian NASA personnel), that pilot is sent back to the USAF unit he was on loan from, then that unit does the Court Marshal.
I am not a native speaker or writer, but isn't it "Court Martial"?
Marshals are agents of the Federal Courts, but that is not related directly to Court Martial.
Court Marshal is the military form of a Trial. There are some rules as the same as a standard trial, but there are many other changes that are specific to Trial by Court Marshal.
Yeah, sorry spelling is not my thing. Math was more my thing and didn't really need grammar there.
Star Trek Battles member. Want to roll with a good group of people regardless of fleets and not have to worry about DPS while doing STFs? Come join the channel and join in the fun!
Semantics, if the Federation is at peace it's a science ship. If the federation is at war, it's a medium cruiser.
"The meaning of victory is not to merely defeat your enemy but to destroy him, to completely eradicate him from living memory, to leave no remnant of his endeavours, to crush utterly his achievement and remove from all record his every trace of existence. From that defeat no enemy can ever recover. That is the meaning of victory."
-Lord Commander Solar Macharius
The intrepid was a a science vessel with combat capability so that, unlike the Nova class, it could hold its own in a fight until backup arrived, but unlike a galaxy class it could get into trickier more hazardous places like the badlands. Tom pari's quote was a comment on the design of the ship to facilitate combat performance if need be but it was never a dedicated combat ship unlike the Defiant.
It would however be a very good reconnaissance vessel with its smaller cross section and advanced sensors.
"The meaning of victory is not to merely defeat your enemy but to destroy him, to completely eradicate him from living memory, to leave no remnant of his endeavours, to crush utterly his achievement and remove from all record his every trace of existence. From that defeat no enemy can ever recover. That is the meaning of victory."
-Lord Commander Solar Macharius
In addition, the ship also carried spatial charges, that could also be used as subspatial charges to cause subspace disturbance. There were also photon charges and photon bursts. The ship also had gravimetric charges, that could be installed into photon torpedoes, turning them into extremely destructive gravimetric torpedoes. . . .
[/indent]
DANIELS: They've detonated an isolytic burst. A subspace tear is forming. RIKER: On screen. PERIM: I thought subspace weapons were banned by the Khitomer Accord. RIKER: Remind me to lodge a protest.
[. . .]
LAFORGE: Detonating the warp core might neutralise the cascade, but then again it might not. Subspace weapons are unpredictable. That's why they were banned.
I'l wager that every warp speed inconsistency found here ... http://www.ditl.org/article-page.php?ArticleID=17&ListID=Articles
... is also canon! If that is indeed the case, then invoking canon is really kind of pointless. You, me, everyone, will always be wrong!
However I will leave the accuracy of that opinion, or the link, for angrytarg and markhawkman to sort out with their Memory Alpha experience to guide them. If they would please be so kind and thanks for the assist.
For my part, being only a simple Klingon, almost nothing here is unassailable Star Trek canon. If we use canon we are asking to be contradicted. The whole idea that'canon is the answer', is begging for a full torpedo spread set to 'dispersal pattern bull ****' and dialed to maximum yield!
I don't contribute to MA, lots of fine people already do that.
I have however been running a pen and paper Star Trek game since the early 1980's and will be running some this week most likely. I look at the 'canon' all the time, and have to sort these kinds of contradictions out endlessly. Things like why don't they get to use warp 11 speeds on their Connie like the Kelvans showed us we could do? I have to know my stuff well enough to answer. I have to make a decision. I occasionally have to throw canon out because it just won't work as well as other canon.
This is a fine discussion, but at the end of the day, it can't be a winnable argument. When the Memory Alpha types start arguing ... well, you can call the fire department now. No hard feelings at oliviaclaire but it's true.
DANIELS: They've detonated an isolytic burst. A subspace tear is forming. RIKER: On screen. PERIM: I thought subspace weapons were banned by the Khitomer Accord. RIKER: Remind me to lodge a protest.
Which reminds me. I have spent to much time on the forums and I need to get back to violating all those pretty accords in my own science ship.
Comments
@artan42
Guys?
This might be a good time to leave the game to Olivia.
Besides this will rage forever. No need to rage at each other. It is like throwing matches into the sun.
http://www.canonwars.com/STCanon.html
My sacred cow was slaughtered long ago.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Star_Trek:_The_Role_Playing_Game#Controversy
How about a different battle?
Some things should be left alone.
Qapla!
My character Tsin'xing
I think my new favorite word is 'aikido'.
Qapla'!
this whole thread is too nonsensical to put any real seriousness into it :P
-Lord Commander Solar Macharius
I love this. Thank you for bringing it into my life.
I kinda love your Mom, she's awesome. Wish she could be our president...but she's British.
The Galaxy classes in the Dominion War were absolute savages. Any scene you see with them they were just carving a path of burning destruction. I think they were grieving the loss of the Enterprise-D and were out to avenge the Odyssey.
The bug ship rammed her right in the Warp Core too. And by the Jem'Hadar's rules they lost...you know, since Victory is Life.
There are other things to consider when it comes to the ship's shape, such as warp field geometry. The Galaxy was one path of warp field design. When they eliminated the neck on Starfleet ships after the Borg encounters they entered a new direction.
Almost all Late 24th century starships had saucer sections that were longer than wide, something that was a departure from the Wider oval saucers of the 22nd and mid 24th century as well as the uniform circular saucers of the 23rd century. We also know that by the 26th century, we'll have wide ones again with the Enterprise-J.
A lot of people criticize the concept of families on the Galaxy class, but it was supposed to be a long term deep deep space exploration vessel. Seven to Twenty year missions with little or no support. That kind of exploration mission will basically destroy a family, you come home and your kid is an adult. Conversely, with that much crew and that much time, you're gonna have families started on the ship. It's one step down from a colony ship and two steps down from a generation ship. Any ship with such precious cargo would have to be well armed and ready. And what mission will be safe and which could become a combat mission cannot be predicted.
So nice they used it twice.
Fortunately all the civilians were at least offloaded at DS9. Damn shame though.
Thanks for that. I'll enjoy it.
It looks like an aggressive dustbuster.
This Klingon's perspective is welcome. What do the Kingons call it?
A Constitution: "Federation battlecruiser"
A Galaxy: "THAT is a Galaxy Class starship, we're no match for them"
Heck even in the Enterprise-C timeline Picard called the Galaxy a Battleship.
Necessity is the mother of invention and diversity in special FX the enemy of Television show production.
Fortunately, they coincide. For centuries there have been multiple designs of naval vessel for different mission profiles with people of different training. The modern Navy had a wide variety of ships, with new types coming into service all the time.
The Producers of the Next Generation said at that time Starfleet was about 30,000 ships. It was established early in TNG that the Galaxy class numbered only 6 in production with an option for 6 more. Then real world events necessitated Starfleet utilizing the class much more than initially anticipated with much more conflict breaking out from the Borg to the Dominion causing more to be built. That's 29,988 ships unaccounted for. That won't be down to a dozen ship classes for ALL Starfleet functions. Nor will ALL of the older ships be put out to pasture unless they just can't keep up with increases in technology.
Fortunately when the time came to depict that with the Dominion War, SFX technology had advanced to the point where CGI could actually depict multiple ship classes at once, in the numbers that would make sense.
The fact that the Sovereign has been deployed doesn't mean they retire the Galaxy, since it's designed for a hundred year life cycle same as the Excelsior and the Ambassador before it.
I'm not sure the Federation has taxes since it doesn't utilize modern capitalism. Probably why the people are so happy.
The technologies you'd use on a top tier exploration ship are the same as the ones you would use on a top tier warship.
Powerful engines: for High speed for travel/responding to a crisis
Advanced Sensors: Long ranged detail scanning/targeting
Powerful Shields: For dealing with environmental hazards/defending oneself against an enemy
Strong Armor: For when the shields fail
Weaponry: Shoot back against the unknown/Shoot back against the Known
Probes: Long distance research/Intelligence gathering
heck even the
Cloaking Device: Research on a population without disturbing or contaminating their culture/Stealth Strikes
Olympic class. Though in the case of the Pasteur, it was a hospital ship, so her armament may have been heavily restricted (read: non-existent) by treaty.
It was created by Q and erased by Picard.
Though according to Q it was created by Picard and erased by Picard...but the circumstances were put into place by Q.
Irrelevant. NASA named a space shuttle Challenger. Which was named after any of these. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HMS_Challenger
Starfleet then turned around and named a Galaxy class ship after the space shuttle. The space shuttle was definitely NOT a warship.
Starfleet has maintained a tradition in line with Earth's Navies, including utilizing old ship names.
That statement was made by Keiran MacDuff, an alien who had infiltrated the ship and was purposefully trying to manipulate the crew into a militant situation. And he was playing on Worf's Klingon instincts. That same Worf who assumed he was the Captain because he had the most bling. So his assertion that the Enterprise was a Battleship is not only suspect, we know it's blatantly manipulative.
Just because it's armed like a battleship, doesn't actually make it one.
Can anyone confirm this?
http://www.collectspace.com/ubb/Forum38/HTML/001064.html
NASA doesn't do the Court Marshal. The Uniformed member gets sent back to their perspective Unit/Service and then goes through Court Marshal.
NASA does not conduct Court Marshal. Example. USAF pilot breaks the Uniformed Code of Military Justice(the military law that applies to all servicemen/women, but not to civilian NASA personnel), that pilot is sent back to the USAF unit he was on loan from, then that unit does the Court Marshal.
Star Trek Battles member. Want to roll with a good group of people regardless of fleets and not have to worry about DPS while doing STFs? Come join the channel and join in the fun!
http://forum.arcgames.com/startrekonline/discussion/1145998/star-trek-battles-channel-got-canon/p1
Right, that's what it said, I just wanted to know if there was anyone else with other input, but that sounds right to me.
In that regard Starfleet and NASA fit what I think it was Kirk said, "an integrated service".
In Enterprise in a way we saw the integration in progress, with Starfleet and MACO. There's also the question of where the old United Earth Space Probe Agency falls in.
It could easily have been that the Federation Starfleet is simply the ultimate evolution of several services.
So Starfleet as it's military-esque named implies starts out as the United Earth's defense force, you have the United Earth Space Probe Agency, which is responsible for exploration, MACO which is basically the Marines of Starfleet a deployable ground military unit, and the Cochrane Warp 5 Complex scientific organization. With the development of the warp 5 engine making a long range starship possible, Starfleet by default became the most capable exploration agency. They would then as a result of who they encountered become the first line of defense, defense agency. And on that note they would also become the first line of diplomacy as well. Therefore Starfleet's capability by the time of the Federation became that they were the most capable of all of the agencies at doing each job. They were the most capable of exploration, the best equipped for defense, the testing ground for the latest technologies, and the de facto diplomatic face. All of that hasn't changed since 2361.
I am not a native speaker or writer, but isn't it "Court Martial"?
Marshals are agents of the Federal Courts, but that is not related directly to Court Martial.
Court Marshal is the military form of a Trial. There are some rules as the same as a standard trial, but there are many other changes that are specific to Trial by Court Marshal.
If you want to know more specifics, you can read this: http://www.military.com/benefits/military-legal-matters/courts-martial-explained.html
Star Trek Battles member. Want to roll with a good group of people regardless of fleets and not have to worry about DPS while doing STFs? Come join the channel and join in the fun!
http://forum.arcgames.com/startrekonline/discussion/1145998/star-trek-battles-channel-got-canon/p1
This however shows that you do not understand what the point is. Canon is less important than opinion or intend when discussing canon? There is literally no problem when we all use canon, as defined by CBS, as a baseline and mark everything that surpasses it as opinion that however can be based on background information and let it stand open for debate. It doesn't make it canonical, though. Star Trek canon is not complicated. It just is perceived as such because many people don't like it and simply go on and make stuff up. It's not possible to have a reasonable discussion that way.
The remark of you being a MA contributor is superflous. For example, I am as well. This is because MA is a open wiki which doesn't even require registration to contribute to it. And that's the problem, a lot of the material on MA is not properly cited, making it baseless. This has nothing to do with canon or Memory Alpha or someone being biased, this is a basic issue about working with sources. You wouldn't use claims without proper citation in scientific works. And yes, proper attribution requires exactly that. Things written on MA that do not fulfill that basic requirement have no business being on MA and cannot be included in a canon discussion. You can still include them as opinionated pieces and discuss them, though.
Get the Forums Enhancement Extension!
Fairly sure he was talking about your spelling. Marshal Vs Martial.
Indeed.
Star Trek Battles member. Want to roll with a good group of people regardless of fleets and not have to worry about DPS while doing STFs? Come join the channel and join in the fun!
http://forum.arcgames.com/startrekonline/discussion/1145998/star-trek-battles-channel-got-canon/p1
-Lord Commander Solar Macharius
It would however be a very good reconnaissance vessel with its smaller cross section and advanced sensors.
http://www.arcgames.com/en/games/star-trek-online/news/detail/10052253
Why are you not rejoicing?
-Lord Commander Solar Macharius
"I thought subspace weapons were banned by the Khitomer Accord."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comprehensive_Nuclear-Test-Ban_Treaty
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Submarine-launched_ballistic_missile
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Submarine-launched_ballistic_missile#Non-military_use
Your point?
Armed Research Vessels
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HMS_Endeavour
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HMS_Beagle
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HMS_Challenger_(1858)
Ships appropriate to an age of exploration in oceans routinely contested by warring powers. Again, your point?
I'l wager that every warp speed inconsistency found here ...
http://www.ditl.org/article-page.php?ArticleID=17&ListID=Articles
... is also canon! If that is indeed the case, then invoking canon is really kind of pointless. You, me, everyone, will always be wrong!
However I will leave the accuracy of that opinion, or the link, for angrytarg and markhawkman to sort out with their Memory Alpha experience to guide them. If they would please be so kind and thanks for the assist.
For my part, being only a simple Klingon, almost nothing here is unassailable Star Trek canon. If we use canon we are asking to be contradicted. The whole idea that 'canon is the answer', is begging for a full torpedo spread set to 'dispersal pattern bull ****' and dialed to maximum yield!
I don't contribute to MA, lots of fine people already do that.
I have however been running a pen and paper Star Trek game since the early 1980's and will be running some this week most likely. I look at the 'canon' all the time, and have to sort these kinds of contradictions out endlessly. Things like why don't they get to use warp 11 speeds on their Connie like the Kelvans showed us we could do? I have to know my stuff well enough to answer. I have to make a decision. I occasionally have to throw canon out because it just won't work as well as other canon.
This is a fine discussion, but at the end of the day, it can't be a winnable argument. When the Memory Alpha types start arguing ... well, you can call the fire department now. No hard feelings at oliviaclaire but it's true.
I'm going to repeat myself ...
I should listen to my own advice.
Qapla!
Which reminds me. I have spent to much time on the forums and I need to get back to violating all those pretty accords in my own science ship.
Qapla'!